BS: Post Brexit life in the UK

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 05 Jul 18 - 12:51 PM

My optimism about Brexit can only have any proof once Brexit has actually happened. I don't need to prove that I am optimistic, I can state it as first hand knowledge.
I'm so sorry that these concepts are so difficult to understand.

That is not difficult in the least to understand. You can be as optimistic as you like, no problem.

However, if you want anyone else to share that optimism, you need to explain the foundations of it to them. Is that difficult to understand?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jul 18 - 02:43 PM

Put far better than I did DMcG. Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 05 Jul 18 - 03:35 PM

I would have thought it obvious that the voting pattern in the referendum reflected those that had positive and negative thoughts about brexit. After all do turkeys vote for christmas?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Jul 18 - 05:17 PM

You, Keefy, and Nigs did.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 Jul 18 - 05:40 PM

So please tell us what gave rise to your optimism at the time and what, after all the negative reports we have had, keeps that optimism alive.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 06 Jul 18 - 03:40 AM

what, after all the negative reports we have had, keeps that optimism alive.

'Negative reports'?
Unless you've something specific, most of what we hear from remainers are reports of negative forecasts. Just as we can't give the positives until we are in a post Brexit situation, you will not know the accuracy of those forecasts until the same time.
Our voting (or mine at least) was not purely based on optimism. There was also pessimism about the future of the EU and our relationship with it. That pessimism was based on the results of decades of membership of the EU.

A woman doesn't have to know what her future position will be in order to get out of a bad marriage. It may be enough just to decide she wants to get out. Although, as I understand it, many women can't make the decision to get out, and remain in abusive marriages although they know nothing will get better, and it may well get worse.

The latest news from Theresa May does not fill me with confidence, but I still want to see us break our (current) ties with the EU.

DMcG: However, if you want anyone else to share that optimism, you need to explain the foundations of it to them. Is that difficult to understand?

It is not my job to persuade you of the benefits and convert you to my optimism. You can continue being pessimistic. Enough people already feel that we would be better getting out of the EU (for one reason or another, and yes, there may be some xenophobes among that number) for the Brexit referendum to have been won.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jul 18 - 04:27 AM

It is not my job to persuade you of the benefits and convert you to my optimism.

Yet you continue to laud the benefits of brexit. Why is that? If you are not trying to persuade anyone else maybe you are trying to convince yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Jul 18 - 04:33 AM

We don't yet know what will be decided at the Chequers meeting, but a lot of Brexiteers seem unhappy that we might be moving closer to "Brexit in name only'.

Just wondering if that would affect your optimism, Nigel.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 06 Jul 18 - 04:35 AM

I'm trying to alleviate the doom and gloom being spread by others.
Also to prevent false information from being spread around as 'facts' when it is just guesswork.

For a lot of the posters here, this thread would just act as an echo chamber if there was no one to put the opposite view.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Jul 18 - 04:44 AM

Well I have said that I do not expect things to be as bad as some fear (and certainly not as good as some hope.)   Like Thomas Hardy, I think it will be largely "neutral tinted haps and such". But I do think it will have significantly darker tints than now, especially for the individual. The softer the Brexit, the less the damage. But damage there will be, I have no doubt. I do not "believe" the forecasts in the sense of whether the numbers are accurate: the world is too complicated for that. But is the general tone of them believable? I reckon so.   And I do believe Airbus and LandRover and Nissen and the rest understand their business better than anyone else.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 06 Jul 18 - 04:45 AM

'Brexit in name only' would certainly affect my feelings on the matter.
My optimism over Brexit is based on us making the clean break that was part of the original referendum.
If we remain too closely tied to the EU my previous pessimism (about the EU) is likely to resurface. We could be left with the worst combinations of the wishes of both the Brexit and the Remain camps.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jul 18 - 04:45 AM

I'm trying to alleviate the doom and gloom being spread by others.

But you are not doing so, Nigel. If you can explain what your optimism is based on I may not be convinced but at least I may be a bit more hopeful. There are no economists backing up the claims that prices will go down, business will boom and all will be sunshine and roses, so where do you get these ideas from?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jul 18 - 04:50 AM

making the clean break that was part of the original referendum

The referendum asked just one question

Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?

Making a clean break is your own interpretation of a very complex question that was over simplified.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 06 Jul 18 - 04:59 AM

"Making a clean break is your own interpretation of a very complex question that was over simplified."

Don't be ridiculous! A vote is always a yes/no. One day you may learn to accept the majority enfranchised and interested enough voted for out.

The disenfranchised, those not old enough and those too idle to vote
are of zero significance. They had no impact on the final outcome. They are an irrelevance, rather like your continuous wittering.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 06 Jul 18 - 05:05 AM

Try this one: By a member of the Adam Smith institute

I didn't mention sunshine & roses, nor the 'unicorns' that some people keep on bringing up (possibly for comic effect)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 06 Jul 18 - 05:11 AM

That last response was to: There are no economists backing up the claims that prices will go down, business will boom and all will be sunshine and roses, so where do you get these ideas from?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jul 18 - 05:12 AM

That's a very big if, Nigel but thanks for the link. I shall read it thoroughly later and hope it does allay some fears.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jul 18 - 05:20 AM

Hmmmm. Not a long article so I have now read through it twice. It seems that the 'special interests' to be ignored are primarily the NFU and food standards. If cheaper food means our own farmers going to the wall and a reduction in food standards then, to be honest, I do not want cheaper food.

Still, you are to be commended for trying at least Nigel. Thanks again.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jul 18 - 05:41 AM

"...and those too idle to vote are of zero significance. They had no impact on the final outcome. They are an irrelevance..."

You do not know why millions of people didn't vote. Some may have been too idle. Some may have been undecided. Some may not have felt qualified to decide. Some may have been too ill. Some may have been preoccupied with other serious matters in their lives. Some may have been opposed to referendums on principle. It is not for you to judge that non-voters were "too idle." As for having no impact, well the final outcome was a leave vote. I voted remain, therefore I also had no impact on the final outcome. I'm a member of your irrelevants just as much as a non-voter. This haughty attitude betrayed by you and a lot of others in your 38% demonstrates a severe lack of understanding of democracy.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 06 Jul 18 - 05:46 AM

It's a relevant point as Johnson did not advertise the adverse risks on the side of the bus. Therefore, surely, those who STILL want to leave have no moral right to impose lowering of living standards on the rest of the population.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Jul 18 - 05:54 AM

Don't be ridiculous! A vote is always a yes/no

And Brexit-in-name-only still abides by that vote.

(Not that I think it a good idea, but it does.)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jul 18 - 06:43 AM

He is best just ignored. It is the only way to deal with such petulance.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 06 Jul 18 - 08:04 AM

"He is best just ignored. It is the only way to deal with such petulance. "

You mean you have no rational counter argument. Wot a surprise! I see Steve is still trying to argue that the ayes have it is not democracy.
Only in the remainiacs eyes,I assure you.

The ballot box cares not a fig for those that did not vote and gives not a whit for their reasons.
As I keep pointing out THEY ARE AN IRRELEVANCE!

Turnout 72.2%. Rejected ballots 26,033 ... 52% to 48%. Leave won the majority of votes. The turnout also exceeded the number for all General Elections since 1997.
Democracy in action! Leave won! Get over it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jul 18 - 08:09 AM

QED

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Jul 18 - 08:09 AM

Dave, set an example by ignoring all of us yourself.
It could hardly make you more irrelevant!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 06 Jul 18 - 08:33 AM

QED
The acme of 19500 posts!
Says it all really.

Never mind no doubt a fellow poster will have something pertinent to say in a while. A quality sadly lacking from the posts of the gnome.

He reminds me of a border collie. They approach wagging their tails, and whip round as they pass to sink their teeth into you.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jul 18 - 08:58 AM

Keep digging.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Jul 18 - 09:30 AM

"He reminds me of a border collie. They approach wagging their tails, and whip round as they pass to sink their teeth into you."

Words like Kettle, Pot, Black, Glasshouses, and Stones spring readily to mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jul 18 - 09:36 AM

That's it from me on those two now, Raggy. I can only suggest you and others employ the same tactic.

It is impossible to conduct a decent discussion with Keith at the table, twisting, turning and making up his own rules. We now know that talking through him is the only way to avoid his nonsense. Even the most tolerant of posters has now called it a day. It is becoming increasingly apparent that any discussion Iains is also becoming intolerable with the puerile abuse and wild mood swings. I suggest that he should also be avoided at all costs.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jul 18 - 09:38 AM

Sorry - I was responding to you BWM, not Raggy but the same still applies :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Jul 18 - 10:10 AM

Gotcha Dave. I agree on all points.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Jul 18 - 11:25 AM

Why don't you people go on PM to tell each other how bad Brexit is?
You would never have to read anything that tells you the other side of the story then.

Pretending not to read our posts just makes you look silly.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Jul 18 - 12:31 PM

Well then, tell us precisely how BrexShit will benefit the people of the U.K. Not the immensely-wealthy tiny minority who will benefit by being able to continue offshoring their wealth, but the ordinary man and woman in the street, the student, the sick, the unemployed, etc. Exactly what is going to change to make their lives better?

Don't come up with the bollocks about 'taking are cuntry back', we never lost it. Don't drivel on about 'make our own laws', we've always been able to do that. Don't bullshit about 'the EU won't be able to tell us what to do', every law which has originated from the EU has been ratified by our own parliament and, in any case, that's only 13% of UK law made since we joined the EU.

Just give us a list of the ways in which the majority of people in the UK are going to be better off - the benefits which persuaded you to vote Leave.

Bet you don't, because you can't.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Jul 18 - 01:07 PM

That question needs to be answered, not In terms of what they see as the best of all possible worlds, but in terms of the outcome of the Chequers meeting. That is still unknown at the moment, but when it does finally come out - and on the assumption it is not more fudge - that's when I'd like to hear the benefits.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jul 18 - 01:11 PM

Norra lorra movement in Chequers today except of the bowels
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 06 Jul 18 - 01:57 PM

Must be time for a resurgence of ukip. The tory and labour supporters of brexit are being betrayed. Let us welcome back Mr. Farage!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jul 18 - 02:35 PM

"Let us welcome back Mr. Farage!"
Had he ever gone away?
Thought he was posting here under the name Iai....
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 06 Jul 18 - 02:58 PM

For your delectation and delight:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfj6MipMYaY

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Jul 18 - 03:52 PM

Very interesting. Now, how about that list of benefits?

Put up, or STFU, squaddie.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 06 Jul 18 - 04:00 PM

As Nigel mentioned marriage in his post at 03.40 am perhaps it would be pertinant to link to another report in todays Guardian entitled "Rudderless and riven by Brexit"

It gives a resume of the party that are tasked with leading us of of the EU.

To hell in a hand cart comes to mind. It mentions several items that have been questioned on here.

Could someone please do the honours.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 06 Jul 18 - 05:09 PM

So id May going to guarantee freedom of movement, and no customs restrictions for all UK citizens travelling to from EU, or is she a useless piece of proverbial?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jul 18 - 05:23 PM

As far as I can see SPB, it is the latter.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 06 Jul 18 - 06:18 PM

"Put up, or STFU, squaddie."

No! An officer and a gentleman, unlike your goodself.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 06 Jul 18 - 07:13 PM

From: SPB-Cooperator - PM
Date: 06 Jul 18 - 05:09 PM

So id May going to guarantee freedom of movement, and no customs restrictions for all UK citizens travelling to from EU, or is she a useless piece of proverbial?

I would try to respond to that if it actually made any sense.
Apart from the typos, and the inability to write in English, There are already customs restrictions on travelling between EU/UK.
There are restrictions on bringing in live animals.
there are restrictions on bringing in live plants.
There are restrictions on bringing in alcohol & tobacco.

So if Mrs May guaranteed freedom of movement, and no customs restrictions, it would be a massive change from what we already have.

But feel free to continue putting forward crap arguments. We've become used to it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 06 Jul 18 - 07:19 PM

Guardian article requested by Raggytash

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 06 Jul 18 - 07:24 PM

Once again, many thanks Nigel.

As I am sure you are aware, with limited access I cannot link myself.

Cheers, if we ever meet I owe you a pint (or two)!!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 06 Jul 18 - 07:28 PM

No problem. We may (do) disagree on Brexit, but from our place here I guess we're kindred spirits on other matters.

I would probably also buy a round. (but don't quote me on that!)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jul 18 - 07:30 PM

All in the same Nigel post:

"I would try to respond to that if it actually made any sense.
Apart from the typos, and the inability to write in English, There are already customs restrictions on travelling between EU/UK."

Then:

"there are restrictions on bringing in live plants."

Gosh, Niglets, is that lack of a capital T a typo, or is it your inability to write in English? Then there's that capital T of yours in the word "There" after a mere comma... Tsk, Nigel. People in grass houses shouldn't stow thrones...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Jul 18 - 02:09 AM

Given there is an attempt to compress a 120-page document into a few paragraphs, exactly what has been agreed is still a bit unclear. But all the papers seem to agree that the cabinet have approved a softish Brexit as the objective. Since a negotiation normally ends up somewhere between the negotiators' positions, it is likely we will end up with an even softer one, and my guess is services and trade will be treated the same.

Much will depend on what the hard Brexiteers do in the next week or two, and Bill Cash, for example, did not sound too happy on Newsnight.

But never fear, leavers, it looks as if we are leaving, in line with the referendum result

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Jul 18 - 02:43 AM

As I said earlier, I don't see a revitalisation of UKIP out of this: I fear that a much darker party might be coming up, with a manifesto to weaken the judges, the House of Lords, and all checks on the government - which they would hope to be them. They will do so, not so much based on the EU, but by playing on the anger of all those who feel cheated in any way. And their support could be very evenly spread throughout every constituency.

The next election might be a very dangerous time. I very much hope I am wrong.