BS: Post Brexit life in the UK

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 06:49 AM

"The only European values back then were those imposed by Hitler."

"Back then" the European countries about to be invaded by Hitler, such as Poland, Norway, France, Czechoslovakia, Belgium, etc., all had "values" very different from those of Hitler. They weren't all populated by anarchistic savages with no values, believe it or not. Your remark is vacuous.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 06:41 AM

We are making the argument on sane, solid criteria, Nigel, trying to get the blinkers off the millions who were hoodwinked by xenophobic lies and vacuous fiscal promises. Stage One is to get the referendum decision abandoned. Stage Two, if Stage One fails, is out of our hands. And out of yours, as you'll see. Nearly half a billion of them against sixty million of us. They'll survive quite well without our already-weak economy and with large sections of what used to be our services sector shifted to Paris and Berlin. Never mind. Rule Britannia! Narrower and narrower WILL our bounds be set!

The lessons of history, Iains, were what set the European project on its way after WW1 and WW2, the aim being to prevent Hitlerism from ever holding sway in Europe again and to replace it very firmly with international cooperation in trade and free movement and insistence on democracy and the rule of law in every member state. It's worked so far. No third pan-European war and no prospect of one on the horizon. So much for your Hitler allusion, eh? Of course, to learn the lessons of history you have to know some history in the first place. Would you like me to recommend some textbooks to you?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 06:41 AM

So, having campaigned to sail HMS United Kingdom away from the EU without even a chart or a compass, that monumental Shit-For-Brains, Bozo Johnson, is proposing we build a cross-channel Bridge!

WTF? You couldn't make it up!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 06:31 AM

I'd love to know how come Keith and Nigel are not absolutely shitting themselves at the very thought that we are heading for brexit with May, Johnson, Gove and Davis at the helm. I mean, Christ on a bike...

If you must use nautical metaphors, it is very difficult to have four 'at the helm'.
However, better that than remaining in the EU. A stance you continually fail to grasp!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 06:21 AM

We've already had one of those. It's been a long Christmas. Pessimism when you're standing on the crumbling edge of a cliff might just spur you to take some evasive action.
So you criticise my lack of strategy.
What 'evasive action' are you taking? (if you're right that this cliff is crumbling)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 06:12 AM

IRISH PM Leo Varadkar feels sorry for British WW2 veterans over Brexit.

The Dublin chief claimed Tommies who stormed the Normandy beaches on D-Day were doing so “for European values”.

Christ on a bike... or for supposed historical accuracy perhaps it should be on a donkey!

The only European values back then were those imposed by Hitler. Some of us are concerned the un-elected bureaucrats might be toddling off down the road to a similar nightmare.

The lessons of history are never learnt by some, and some apparently cannot learn history especially that varadar character.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 05:54 AM

Has Boris declared that the French will pay?

I'd love to know how come Keith and Nigel are not absolutely shitting themselves at the very thought that we are heading for brexit with May, Johnson, Gove and Davis at the helm. I mean, Christ on a bike...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 05:49 AM

Ah, two little Englanders in a row, neither remembering that both this country and the big world out there have changed radically since we last floated alone as the sick man of Europe.

Nigel, your strategy-less optimism mindset equals complacency. Seeing all the signs and being pessimistic leads to a mindset that is predicated on a sense of urgency. The dicks who are leading our negotiations have yet to see that the EU is not going to give us a favourable, bespoke deal. They are optimistic just like you. And complacent. Oh yes, there will be fudges that will be sold to us as great victories. We've already had one of those. It's been a long Christmas. Pessimism when you're standing on the crumbling edge of a cliff might just spur you to take some evasive action.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 05:43 AM

Johnson now talks about wanting to build a bridge to France! A 22 mile bridge across one of the busiest seaways in the world no less. Am I alone in thinking this could be an attempt to divert attention away from the fiasco that is Brexit.


A bridge

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 05:20 AM

From: Steve Shaw

"Optimism" will get us everywhere, won't it, Nigel?

Would you care to tell us how this "ever closer union" could ever be achieved without this country's willing participation in whatever process you have in mind that would lead to it? What new laws would be passed that we would be helpless to influence? Or veto? It's another of those wish-washy leave thingies, isn't it, a bit like "taking back control" and "the United States of Europe" and "laws imposed on us by unelected Brussels bureaucrats?"

So you're "optimistic." Thing is, DMcG asked you what your strategy is, not how you feel after this morning's cappuccino.

Optimism will often get us further than pessimism.
As for my 'strategy', I have none. I'm not a politician.
Come to that, I don't feel I need a strategy. I am confident that this country is strong enough to survive, and thrive, outside the constraints of the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 05:19 AM

There is enough practical evidence available now to show that the decision was an utter disaster,

No there is not, and you can not blame Brexit for Trump or the rise of the Far Right in EU.

Many countries, e.g. Japan, Canada, S.Korea, Taiwan, manage without being part pf a political union. They have problems and deal with them as they arise just as we used to.

There is a whole world outside the nursery.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 04:58 AM

"But if they had won the referendum I am the one who would now be worrying about our future."
As distinct from ignoring and making excuses for the problems that have already arising and are most certain to continue, do you mean Nigel
There is enough practical evidence available now to show that the decision was an utter disaster, not least the fact that the populism used to win Brexit opened the door to Trump and the re-emergence of fascism in Europe
Brexit lad the way
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 04:55 AM

"Optimism" will get us everywhere, won't it, Nigel?

Would you care to tell us how this "ever closer union" could ever be achieved without this country's willing participation in whatever process you have in mind that would lead to it? What new laws would be passed that we would be helpless to influence? Or veto? It's another of those wish-washy leave thingies, isn't it, a bit like "taking back control" and "the United States of Europe" and "laws imposed on us by unelected Brussels bureaucrats?"

So you're "optimistic." Thing is, DMcG asked you what your strategy is, not how you feel after this morning's cappuccino.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 04:43 AM

Remainers have, by and large, been worried that things won't work, that cost's will go up, that trade deals can't be struck... In short, being wrong means the UK will have a better future than they fear.

Leavers, on the other hand, assume everything will work out, so any occasion they are wrong means the country is in a worse state.

Leavers do not 'assume everything will work out', but we are at least optimistic that our country will have a good future once we are self-governing once more.

Remainers were previously working on the assumption that staying in the EU would not cause us further problems with further integration toward 'ever closer union'.
Fortunately they will not get the opportunity to see how that would have worked out. But if they had won the referendum I am the one who would now be worrying about our future.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 02:32 AM

No problem, DMcG, the unicorns will make everything right.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 02:23 AM

When Dominic Grieve said "in my view - I might be wrong" he reminded me of an asymmetry in this whole palaver. He might be wrong, I might be wrong, any one of us might be wrong. We are talking of the future, which is ultimately unknown.

Remainers have, by and large, been worried that things won't work, that cost's will go up, that trade deals can't be struck... In short, being wrong means the UK will have a better future than they fear.

Leavers, on the other hand, assume everything will work out, so any occasion they are wrong means the country is in a worse state.

I would like to hear from Nigel, Iains, Keith and anyone else what their strategy is if things don't go as they hope.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jan 18 - 08:06 PM

If Macron's stance prevails, and there is no good reason why it won't, either we stay in the single market or we fall off the cliff. If we stay in the single market the referendum was a farce - we will still enjoy free movement of people, the termination of which was the main tenet of the leave campaign. If we don't, we're doomed. Not even the little Englanders will be able to save us from floating, miserable and friendless, into the middle of the Atlantic Ocean.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Jan 18 - 05:47 PM

It is interesting to compare Macron's stance with what Dominic Greive said on Tuesday in the early stages of the Withdrawal Bill 2nd reading:


"Another factor influenced my decision not to table another amendment and divide the House on this matter. Realistically, although I realise that some may not like this, in leaving the European Union, we are about to embark on a lengthy period of transitional arrangements during which, in my view - I might be wrong - every jot and tittle of EU law will continue to apply to this country in every conceivable respect, except that we will no longer share in its making in the institutions of the European Union. I am afraid that I think that is where we are going; the alternative, of course, is that we are jumping off the cliff."

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jan 18 - 05:41 PM

Macron has simply laid on the line that we can't be in the single market unless we allow free movement and adhere to all EU trading laws and standards. Much the same would apply even if we simply had access. Even if we agreed to either, we would no longer have any influence over changes to laws and regulations. There can be no special consideration for our services sector either, which just happens to be four-fifths of our economy.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jan 18 - 05:25 PM

Not only did you link to two right-wing sources, they had absolutely nothing to do with the point that you were allegedly refuting in that post. In case you didn't quite catch it, Iains, here it is in very simple words: the EU does NOT impose laws on member countries via edicts from unelected bureaucrats in Brussels or anywhere else. All laws are discussed and ratified, or not, by elected representatives of member states. In those discussions, the bigger your country, the bigger your influence, and, in that regard, the UK is in the top three countries. Not one of your rude interventions today has addressed that very simple point. Yet you call someone else a troll. You give every indication that your understanding of the issues surrounding brexit is superficial and third-hand.

Please desist from responding with even more abuse.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 18 Jan 18 - 04:08 PM

Out of order Iains, Backwoodsman gave a coherent argument, Trolls are people who just snipe and run away, a bit like your comment in fact.

French president Emmanuel Macron has understandably said today that the UK will get no special deal unless we play ball with the EU.


Macron

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Jan 18 - 03:09 PM

"Your last post is nothing but a pathetic attempt to troll, and you appear barely capable of doing that properly!"

No, Teribus, it was a serious question. But, compared to an expert Troll like you, I suppose I'm not very good at it - I haven't had your long, persistent experience.

So, answer the question - do you read anything other than pro-BrexShit Tory Shitrags? The links you provide and the brainwashed Tory-bollocks you spout would suggest not.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 18 Jan 18 - 02:46 PM

Backwoodsman.
Do try to post something sensible.
Your last post is nothing but a pathetic attempt to troll, and you appear barely capable of doing that properly!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Jan 18 - 02:40 PM

Macron's comments today:

Please allow me to be very clear. I'm here neither to punish nor to reward. I want to make sure that the single market is preserved because that is very much at the heart of the European Union.

So the choice is on the British side, not on my side. They can have no differentiated access to financial services. If you want access to the single market, including the financial services, be my guest. But it means that you need to contribute to the budget and acknowledge European jurisdiction. Such are the rules and we know this is the system already in place for Norway.

If you want a trade access, it will cover everything, but then it is not full access to the single market and to financial services. Otherwise it's closer to the situation of Canada. We have some trade agreements which allow access to all services, be they financial or others, access as well to any industry sector, but not the same level of relationship as if you were a member of the single market. And there shall be no hypocrisy in this respect, otherwise it will not work. Or we would destroy the single market and its coherence.

So, it's simple. I would not want to exclude any sector in the trade agreement to come. The negotiations will be led by Michel Barnier. But it does not mean that the access it will allow will be equivalent to [being] a member of the single market. Otherwise you can choose between Norway, or being the equivalent of a current member of the European Union.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Jan 18 - 02:15 PM

Teribus, do you read anything other than pro-Brexit Tory Shit-Rags?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 18 Jan 18 - 12:48 PM

"You are not demonstrating in any way that laws are imposed undemocratically. Put as simply as possible, they are not."

and the other leg has bells on!




https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/859297/Brexit-news-Juncker-EU-plans-European-Social-Security-Number-Labour-Authority


https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/09/britain-is-better-off-out-of-jean-claude-junckers-eu-superstate/

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Jan 18 - 10:10 AM

:-D

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 18 Jan 18 - 09:50 AM

There is a slight but important difference Dave, my posts where SPECIFICALLY addressed to one person.

Neither Nigel or Stanron nominated anyone in particular in their posts, so anyone is free to respond.

Simples ............

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Jan 18 - 09:25 AM

Stanron (& I) were quoting Steve Shaw, not you

Well, to quote Keith A's words, if you don't want someone else to comment on your conversation, stick to PMs.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jan 18 - 08:21 AM

All you're doing is describing the bureaucracy, Nigel. You are not demonstrating in any way that laws are imposed undemocratically. Put as simply as possible, they are not.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jan 18 - 08:18 AM

" In fact, the UK, as one of the largest and most influential member states, plays a significant part in drawing up the laws."

Had your argument any merit there would have been no need for brexit.

It's not an argument. It's a rock-solid fact. The UK enjoys the third-largest voting weight, i.e., voting influence, in the EU. Only Germany and France, both with larger populations, have more weight. By the way, there IS no need for Brexit.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Jan 18 - 08:18 AM

I'll continue that quote I gave above from the EU's own site. Just in case anyone can be bothered to read and understand it:

In the adoption of legislative acts, a distinction is made between the ordinary legislative procedure (codecision), which puts Parliament on an equal footing with the Council, and the special legislative procedures, which apply only in specific cases where Parliament has only a consultative role.

On certain questions (e.g. taxation) the European Parliament gives only an advisory opinion, (the 'consultation procedure'). In some cases the Treaty provides that consultation is obligatory, being required by the legal base, and the proposal cannot acquire the force of law unless Parliament has delivered an opinion. In this case the Council is not empowered to take a decision alone.

Parliament has a power of political initiative

It can ask the Commission to present legislative proposals for laws to the Council.

It plays a genuine role in creating new laws, since it examines the Commission's annual programme of work and says which laws it would like to see introduced

On the 'consultation procedure' that site also states:
The European Parliament may approve or reject a legislative proposal, or propose amendments to it. The Council is not legally obliged to take account of Parliament's opinion but in line with the case-law of the Court of Justice, it must not take a decision without having received it.
So, effectively, Parliament's opinion is advisory only.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jan 18 - 08:08 AM

That's correct, DMcG. And the challenge remains: give us one example of one of those requests that has ever been refused outright by the Commission. If there have been any, let's discuss why.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jan 18 - 08:05 AM

It is a different language, Dave. The three of them are clinging for dear life to the untruth, believed still by millions of Brits I'd suggest, that an unelected bureaucracy in Brussels imposes laws on us. The three of them are just about falling short of telling us how the draconian EU has told us how straight cucumbers have to be or what colour is allowed for duck eggs. Credit to them for that at least, I suppose.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Jan 18 - 08:03 AM

There is also the question of where the Commission gets the ideas for legislation from in the first place. For what it is worth, Wikipedia says "... the Commission frequently introduces legislation at the behest of the Council or upon the suggestion of Parliament ...'

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jan 18 - 08:00 AM

Not the case, Stanron. The elected representatives can oblige the Commission to initiate matters which may then be legislated on by them. Bet you can't give me an example of when the Commission has outright refused such a request. In any event, the elected representatives can throw out or modify the Commission's suggestions. Yes there is a bureaucracy. We've got one of those too. The leave campaign has made great play about how undemocratic the EU is supposed to be, yet only elected members can pass the laws that bind us. I'd suggest to you that the biggest democratic deficit of all is created when voter turnout for European elections is so low. And no prizes for guessing one of the main drivers of that deficit: why, the constant whingeing of eurosceptics about how remote and undemocratic the EU is, about gravy trains, about ever-closer union, about the United States of Europe to come (which, oddly, never seems to arrive)... yep, that talk is precisely how you you piss off the voters and make them think they can't have any influence, so they don't bother to vote. The attempt at creating a self-fulfilling prophesy, I'd say. And sheer hypocrisy when tied to claims about how undemocratic the EU is supposed to be. There's nothing more undemocratic than an election in which the true situation is serially misrepresented to voters who then don't turn out to vote. Well, apart from referendum campaigns run by two sets of liars, I suppose...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Jan 18 - 07:59 AM

From: Dave the Gnome - PM
Date: 18 Jan 18 - 07:51 AM

Had your argument any merit there would have been no need for brexit

It has and there isn't! :-)

Elected representatives cannot INITIATE legislation. They can only vote on stuff the UNELECTED Commision allow them to vote on.

In other words, unelected representatives cannot pass laws. Only the elected representatives can do that. Which is what I thought was said.

Different language syndrome?

Stanron (& I) were quoting Steve Shaw, not you.

Different person syndrome?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Jan 18 - 07:51 AM

Had your argument any merit there would have been no need for brexit

It has and there isn't! :-)

Elected representatives cannot INITIATE legislation. They can only vote on stuff the UNELECTED Commision allow them to vote on.

In other words, unelected representatives cannot pass laws. Only the elected representatives can do that. Which is what I thought was said.

Different language syndrome?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Jan 18 - 07:45 AM

C'mon Stanron, don't upset Steve Shaw by presenting facts.
I know that, and you know that, but it is an 'inconvenient truth'

However, it is confirmed by The EU

How does the legislative process work?

A Member of the European Parliament, working in one of the parliamentary committees, draws up a report on a proposal for a 'legislative text' presented by the European Commission, the only institution empowered to initiate legislation. The parliamentary committee votes on this report and, possibly, amends it. When the text has been revised and adopted in plenary, Parliament has adopted its position. This process is repeated one or more times, depending on the type of procedure and whether or not agreement is reached with the Council.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stanron
Date: 18 Jan 18 - 07:12 AM

Steve Shaw wrote: Only elected representatives can draw up and pass laws

Elected representatives cannot INITIATE legislation. They can only vote on stuff the UNELECTED Commision allow them to vote on.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 18 Jan 18 - 07:08 AM

" In fact, the UK, as one of the largest and most influential member states, plays a significant part in drawing up the laws."

Had your argument any merit there would have been no need for brexit.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jan 18 - 06:57 AM

Just to show how delusional I am, according to our sage friend Iains:

The British government has voted against EU laws 2% of the time since 1999.

Official EU voting records show that the British government has voted ‘No’ to laws passed at EU level on 56 occasions, abstained 70 times, and voted ‘Yes’ 2,466 times since 1999, according to UK in a Changing Europe Fellows Sara Hagemann and Simon Hix.

In other words, UK ministers were on the “winning side” 95% of the time, abstained 3% of the time, and were on the losing side 2%.

This is counting votes in the EU Council of Ministers, which passes most EU laws jointly with the European Parliament. [Source: Full Fact]

Of course, that's the bare bones of it. The numbers alone can't suggest the relative importance of each of the laws and they don't include laws that were not passed, in many cases quite likely because we objected. And in no way can the stats be taken to suggest that the laws are impositions over which we've had no influence. In fact, the UK, as one of the largest and most influential member states, plays a significant part in drawing up the laws. Finally, no EU law is ever imposed by decree by unelected officials. Only elected representatives can draw up and pass laws.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 18 Jan 18 - 06:13 AM

We may have had an even greater impact in European affairs had our elected representatives there taken the trouble to partake in proceeding.

Out of 746 MEP's Nigel Farage has taken next to bottom spot in attendance. The only person with less attendance is Brian Cowley who is paralysed from the waist down and has spent much time in hospital.

In fact UKip in general have a pretty poor record.


UKip Record

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jan 18 - 06:00 AM

We have fully agreed with 95% of all EU laws, whether that suits your case or not, a fact which I've given the figures for several times and which you can easily check, and, of course, they are not imposed by some distant, alien power but are laws in which we have played an influential part in drawing up and modifying. Once we leave, as a trading partner we will have to abide by laws in which we will no longer have a say. There is no EU army because the UK has vetoed it, and while we remain a member, there never will be. There may well be an EU army once we leave. In my view an EU army would be a very bad thing. By leaving, we are losing influence over big decisions that will still affect us. In other words, we are losing control in many important areas. Ironic, I'd say.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 18 Jan 18 - 05:45 AM

"I don't believe she was agreeing with you. She doesn't appear to have used the word "impact" which would have negative implications, just to have made the obvious comment that Brexit will have a longer lasting effect on the younger generation than on the older"

The word impact does not mean negative. If someone knocked on my door this morning and said here's a million quid it would have an impact on my life ............ a good impact.

However I think Brexit will have a negative impact on all our lives, we're seeing some of the effects already, (dearer food, petrol, diesel, electric, gas etc) and those effects will be felt by the younger people for longer.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 18 Jan 18 - 04:49 AM

"It makes the EU look like a bunch of fluffy bunnies."

If only!!!!

Be interesting to see if future history proves you right. My belief is that your fluffy bunnies will turn out to be more akin to wolves in drag.

"But we can best fight these absurdities by staying in and making the argument (always remembering that the UK agrees with 95% of EU laws anyway and actively disagrees with just 2% of them), and remembering that we have considerable influence as one of the largest members."

Wishful thinking at best. The reality would suggest total delusion.
Why else would people wish to leave such a cosy little club?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jan 18 - 04:27 AM

A brave face, Nigel Justine Greening's speech was an undermining one which even drew an official Downing Street riposte. May has made the fundamental error of failing to keep an enemy close. Now Justine is pissing into the tent, to put it crudely.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Jan 18 - 04:24 AM

I saw on BBC News this morning that The Praying Mantis is in France for meeting with Macron, wherein she will sign an agreement for the U.K. to increase the number of migrants it accepts. All contrary to the main thrust of the BrexShit campaign, of course, which depended heavily on racism and xenophobia to bamboozle the feeble-minded into voting 'Leave'.

Presumably, in the eyes of many BrexShit-Buffoons, this makes her a 'traitor' who should "Get behind are (sic) cuntry (sic) or be arrested, marched out, and shot" (the judgment passed on me by a significant number of BrexShit-Buffoons on various Internet forums for having the temerity to continue to oppose their insanity, and to support our remaining in the EU).

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Jan 18 - 03:25 AM

From: Raggytash
I was pleasantly surprised to read a Tory MP saying what many of us have said repeatedly on here.

That is the impact of Brexit will be felt more severely by the younger generation, that the effect on them will last for much longer than it will for us.

I don't believe she was agreeing with you. She doesn't appear to have used the word "impact" which would have negative implications, just to have made the obvious comment that Brexit will have a longer lasting effect on the younger generation than on the older.

For those who haven't accessed the link, the BBC quote her as saying:
"The bottom line is that looking ahead, if Brexit doesn't work for young people in our country in the end it will not be sustainable.

When they take their place here they will seek to improve or undo what we've done and make it work for them.

So we do absolutely have a duty in this House to look ahead and ensure that whatever we get is sustainable and works for them"


The emphases are mine.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jan 18 - 08:18 PM

Well, Pete, I'm not easily taken in by films, but I went to see Darkest Hour last night. It fired me up enough to spend a couple of hours at home afterwards, checking up on the veracity or otherwise of the yarn. Right, some liberties were definitely taken, but... I'm no Churchill fan. My great Uncle Jimmy died uselessly, aged nineteen, at Gallipoli in 1915. His name is on a plaque, spelled wrong, in Salford Cathedral. He's somewhere on the Helles Memorial, but I'm damned if I can track that down. He has no grave. How he might have changed my life had he been around when I was a nipper. To some extent, Winston might have been responsible for his death, who knows. But Churchill was depicted as standing almost alone, politically, against Nazi tyranny, when his compatriots might have sold out the whole of occupied Europe in order to save the Empire. Not bad, I thought, for an avowed Empire man... The EEC was founded in order to promote free trade among the countries that had been perennially and damagingly at war and to ensure that war in Europe never happened again. That was achieved, eventually, not just by free trade but, eventually, by insisting that member states were democratic and abided always by the rule of law. Democracies do not go to war with each other, and so it's proved. Dunno how old you are Pete, but I was born in 1951 and have never been called up to fight in a bloody war and there's no prospect that my one-and-only beloved son will be either. That'll do me. The EU has a bloated bureaucracy and all that, as well as some bloody silly conventions apropos of agriculture and fisheries. But we can best fight these absurdities by staying in and making the argument (always remembering that the UK agrees with 95% of EU laws anyway and actively disagrees with just 2% of them), and remembering that we have considerable influence as one of the largest members. When you come to think of it, if you really want to see a democratic deficit you only have to look at the way the referendum campaign was run and how the Tories have tried to sidestep democracy ever since. It makes the EU look like a bunch of fluffy bunnies. Stay and fight!