BS: Post Brexit life in the UK

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 08:43 PM

"Call yourself "well educated"?"

I've seen worse. Next insulting loser's question, please...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 08:40 PM

"That pre-supposes that we have to buy goods from the EU, rather than buying from those countries which actually produce the goods."

Great. I can't wait to try that Venezuelan Prosecco, that Gambian chorizo, that Mexican bratwurst, that Chilean Camembert, that Falkland Brie, that Peruvian VW Golf, that Indonesian Chianti, that Alaskan ouzo, that Namibian lamb, that Bolivian salami...

We will be buying stuff from the EU for decades, brexit regardless. We can't suddenly scrap half of our trade. We don't have deals with other potential trading partners and we are a very small fish. No king, no country, no Biggles, no empire, Nige. You have yet to come to terms. Typical Tory.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 08:34 PM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 08:26 PM
Your party is concerned with me first, party first, self-interest first, sod the undeserving poor, profit at all costs, devil take the hindmost and always look after number one. Interests of the country? What's that when it's at 'ome?
I must to bed!

Make your mind (if any) up. There cannot be three things which are all 'first'.

Call yourself "well educated"?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 08:26 PM

Your party is concerned with me first, party first, self-interest first, sod the undeserving poor, profit at all costs, devil take the hindmost and always look after number one. Interests of the country? What's that when it's at 'ome?

I must to bed!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 08:23 PM

the bottom line if you ask them, the only thing that is going to matter to British people, that after brexit all food imports from the EU will COST A LOT MORE.

That pre-supposes that we have to buy goods from the EU, rather than buying from those countries which actually produce the goods.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 08:20 PM

Nighy? Sorry, Bill, I meant nighty!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 08:20 PM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 07:54 PM
Oops, sorry, folks. I forgot that Nigel is a Tory and that Tories don't give a flying fart what happens to ordinary people...

Oops: yet another comment which denigrates a large proportion (if you look at recent voting) of the population.

Of course "tories" are concerned about what happens to "ordinary people". Most of us are ordinary people.

There is a popular aphorism, attributed to different people:
A man who is not a Liberal at sixteen has no heart; a man who is not a Conservative at sixty has no head.
—Benjamin Disraeli (1804-1881)

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 08:19 PM

Enjoy your imported cocoa. It'll cost you a lot more by 2019. I have a long day ahead. Nighy night!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 08:16 PM

You're losing it, Nigel. Your whole approach is predicated on denial. You're groovy with GM crops and disinfected intensive imported chicken. Very patriotic (and here's me thinking you wanted to "take back control"). Not me, mate. I'm no purist but my chicken is free-range British and my veg is either home-grown or organic British, or, bottom line, local if nowt else (you can't beat a Cornish cauli). And those import tariffs you reckon I don't get, well even twats like Gove, Boris, Davis and Fox will give you the bottom line if you ask them, the only thing that is going to matter to British people, that after brexit all food imports from the EU will COST A LOT MORE. You scrabble around for cheap Yankee chickens if you like (try to make sure they actually have both legs). Some of us actually have standards.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 08:00 PM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 07:48 PM
Hey, chaps. Nigel wants intensively-reared Yankee chicken that would be too dangerous to eat were it not for the fact that it had to be washed in chlorine. Nigel doesn't mind GM crops that have been bred to resist pesticides so that farmers can use the latter with gay abandon and kill all the bees. Groovy!
Christ, I bet Nigel has his GM chlorinated chicken with Smash and GM baked beans for Sunday lunch. Yum!
How are you on global warming, the moon landings and Kennedy's assassination, Nige?
You're not real, are you, Nigel?

Hey, folks.
Steve Shaw is reading a hell of a lot into what I say which isn't actually there.
"Intensively reared chicken" We have that too. the difference is in how it is cleaned.
"GM crops" - pesticide resistance is not the sole reason for these.
"global warming, the moon landings and Kennedy's assassination," have not, as yet, been mentioned in this discussion, except for the introduction now by Steve Shaw.

My comments were about "Import tariffs". Clearly Steve Shaw does not understand these, and will try to divert the discussion to avoid accepting that he has no real understanding of the subject.
So much for a "well educated scientist".

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 07:54 PM

Oops, sorry, folks. I forgot that Nigel is a Tory and that Tories don't give a flying fart what happens to ordinary people...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 07:52 PM

You really don't get that we will be paying a fortune for foods imported from the EU as compared with today, do you, Nige? I mean, what do you think actually MATTERS to real live people, Nige?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 07:48 PM

Hey, chaps. Nigel wants intensively-reared Yankee chicken that would be too dangerous to eat were it not for the fact that it had to be washed in chlorine. Nigel doesn't mind GM crops that have been bred to resist pesticides so that farmers can use the latter with gay abandon and kill all the bees. Groovy!

Christ, I bet Nigel has his GM chlorinated chicken with Smash and GM baked beans for Sunday lunch. Yum!

How are you on global warming, the moon landings and Kennedy's assassination, Nige?

You're not real, are you, Nigel?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 07:46 PM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 07:32 PM
Nige, our dealings with OTHER EU COUNTRIES is tariff-free. Which it will not be after brexit. What part of that troubles you so? The point is remarkably simple: that will stop when we leave.

I believe I've already made it clear enough.
Purchases from the EU of commodities which originate (totally) within the EU may be "tariff free" (at present). But for most goods which are originally sourced from outside the EU, although we may not pay an import tariff, as such, (for our purchases within the EU) that tariff has already been paid elsewhere within the EU and is included within the "tariff free" price we pay. It's not a case that we are paying a tariff, but that the tariff is a hidden cost within the price of the goods.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 07:32 PM

Nige, our dealings with OTHER EU COUNTRIES is tariff-free. Which it will not be after brexit. What part of that troubles you so? The point is remarkably simple: that will stop when we leave.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 07:22 PM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 06:04 PM
Nigel, dear chap. I think it's rather a good thing that the EU doesn't allow GM food and chlorine chicken.
Don't you?
As for coffee, so we get it direct instead of via the EU. Have a little think, Nige. It means just the one tariff for us whichever way you do it, yeah? So what's yer point?

No, I don't think it's a good thing that the EU bans imports of all GM foods, and of Chlorine-washed chicken ('Chlorine chicken' surely has no real meaning, except for your understanding).
As for coffee, Norway imposes no tariffs (presumably they've worked out that they don't produce their own) The EU impose several variable tariffs. See Here

If you don't understand the matter of import tariffs then continuing to claim that we get stuff "Tariff Free" within the EU shows a lamentable lack of understanding.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 06:04 PM

Nigel, dear chap. I think it's rather a good thing that the EU doesn't allow GM food and chlorine chicken.

Don't you?

As for coffee, so we get it direct instead of via the EU. Have a little think, Nige. It means just the one tariff for us whichever way you do it, yeah? So what's yer point?

Iains, just try to write nice English. You've fallen down very badly on several occasions recently, and you've also regaled us with rather dense and ineffective grandstandings of your alleged geological "knowledge." Get that big chip off your shoulder (inferiority complex or what?), stop insulting people (glass houses and all that...) and just tell us with a civil tongue in your head what you think about the issues under discussion. It's what grown persons do.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 05:52 PM

Just seen this posted by a friend who is in the USA at the moment. You know, that place of free trade that we are trying to emulate...

Sliced wholemeal loaf: $4.95 = ?3.80 (UK Aldi: 80p, Tesco: ?1.20)

Bag of sugar: $1.59 = ?1.22 (UK Aldi 79p Tesco: 85p)

Small jar of own brand honey: $4.79 = ?3.68 (UK Tesco: ?1.69)

425gms* olive spread: $2.69 = ?2.07
*UK olive spread is typically supplied in 500gm tubs, = cost ?2.43 (UK Aldi: 80p Tesco: ?1)

Cucumber: $2.50 = ?1.92 (UK Aldi 68p)

New potatoes: $4.49 = ?3.45 (UK Aldi: under ?2)

Still, I suppose coming out of Europe will keep the fuzzy-wuzzies out.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 04:35 PM

"In English, please? "
I fawt you was well educated! Let's see, in the last week you have claimed to be a scientist, a biologist, a zoologist. What are you claiming to be this coming week - a boring sandal wearing ex teacher that knows nothing? Are you perhaps a Walter Mitty?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 03:04 PM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 02:49 PM
Sure, Nigel. We could get slightly cheaper, GM, grub or chlorine chicken. Groovy! Get real, Nige. The standards insisted on by the EU are GOOD standards. And tariff-free. And we are not suddenly going to find a load of cheap, eager markets selling us their food. We have to renegotiate every one of them first. They are hardly gagging for us. We will have to carry on trading in EU food for decades.

Never mind GM foods & chlorine (washed) chicken. Those are not the EUs sole imports (in fact the EU prevents their import)
How about Coffee (not much of that grown in EU) There may be no tariffs when it is sold on within the EU but as I pointed out above, by that stage the import tariff has already been paid, and will be included as part of the cost (without showing as a tariff) when sold on within the EU.

If you don't understand the matter of import tariffs then continuing to claim that we get stuff "Tariff Free" within the EU shows a lamentable lack of understanding.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 02:49 PM

Sure, Nigel. We could get slightly cheaper, GM, grub or chlorine chicken. Groovy! Get real, Nige. The standards insisted on by the EU are GOOD standards. And tariff-free. And we are not suddenly going to find a load of cheap, eager markets selling us their food. We have to renegotiate every one of them first. They are hardly gagging for us. We will have to carry on trading in EU food for decades. With tariffs. Some of which are bloody stiff. You are the numero uno denial merchant in this thread.

"Shaw if you are going to harp on about independence from the disastrous single currency you cannot realistically squawk when economic disparities between sterling and the single currency lead to variable exchange rates."

In English, please?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 02:40 PM

Stu,
We are allowed to change our minds

Have sigificant numbers of people done so either way?

Keith, I can't be arsed to type out the salient points of the flow of information that fuels the Brexit debate;

I follow it all closely, but there is nothing new in any of it to mak someone change ther mind.

Can you be arsed to give an example of something that you are referring to?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 02:23 PM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 08:54 AM
In what sense are we not already independent? The UK contributes 0.5%, half of one percent, of its total GDP to the EU. We are not in the eurozone. 95% of all laws pertaining to the EU have been fully agreed to by the UK and with around just 2% of EU laws are we in active disagreement. We buy more from them than they buy from us, and it's all tariff-free, and, in very round figures it amounts to about half of all our trade. We can and do trade with the rest of the world, but all thst will now have to be renegotiated. Cor, aren't we good at negotiating! The EU forms a powerful trading bloc that contains the UK population times eight. That's what we're ditching.

The EU does make a powerful trading block, but a trading block which has put 'protectionist' tariffs on the import of many basic foodstuffs which we could import at lower tariffs (WTO) if we were allowed to trade freely. Even without entering into negotiations with those exporting countries we could trade at WTO tariffs, and see a reduced cost of our foods.

"We buy more from them than they buy from us, and it's all tariff free" It's all tariff free when we buy it from (say) Germany, but if it originally sourced from outside the EU then any import tariff has already been paid in Germany, and has been accounted (as a mark up) for when setting the price that Germany will sell it at in order to make a profit.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 02:02 PM

Shaw if you are going to harp on about independence from the disastrous single currency you cannot realistically squawk when economic disparities between sterling and the single currency lead to variable exchange rates.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 01:48 PM

'We' (by which I mean as represented by our own Parliamentary Sovereignty) are already in control, 'we' have always been in control. How many times does it need to be said - every law to which the U.K. is subject has been ratified by the Parliament of the U.K., irrespective of its origin. The U.K. is one of only nine member-states who have a power of veto over EU laws 'we' don't like.

I refer to my previous post regarding the frustrations inherent in, and pointlessness of, trying to interact and debate with those who are completely delusional.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 01:10 PM

Choose to not opt into, I suppose.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 12:57 PM

There is no fixed route to a fixed destination without our say-so. Important changes can be vetoed by individual member countries. We've had this talk of "ever-closer union" for decades. I'd like to know what the signs of this "ever-closer union" are that I'm supposed to be looking out for, well, apart from the disastrous single currency that you are able to opt out of in any case. I certainly haven't seen much sign of any EU country I've been to rushing to give up their individual identities. The trouble with spending too much time admiring the view from that car that you paid a tariff on and which has a tank full of expensive fuel due to the weak pound causing inflation is that you don't notice that brick wall coming at you to smack you in the face.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 12:50 PM

Greg if you wish to publicly display your stupidity please continue.
Your nonsense is best confined to your insult the president thread", where all opposition is deleted

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 12:35 PM

Freedom from what? Common sense?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 12:12 PM

The difference in control by being inside or outside the EU can be expressed by way of analogy. Inside we are passengers on a train, on a fixed route, to a fixed destination. Outside we can drive our own car, at our own pace, to our own itinery and stop off to admire the view whenever the mood takes.
I would have preferred to see change occur as a part of the EU but the rest of the EU drivers have cloth ears. It is a stark choice federalism or freedom.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 11:20 AM

See Trump Trick Thread 25 Nov 17 - 11:51 AM

The parallel is exact.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 10:32 AM

For the last twenty years of her life, my mother suffered from Paranoid Schizophrenia. During her paranoid episodes, she was utterly, completely, absolutely convinced that everyone around her was setting 'traps' to 'prove' that she was a thief, in order to 'get me in trouble with the police'. At the same time, she believed that everyone was laughing at her.

No matter what we, her wider family, and friends did or said to show her she was mistaken, she 'knew' that she was 'right', and that we were all part of the plot against her. Utterly delusional, she was impossible to discuss rationally with, because she 'knew stuff' that the rest of us couldn't see. The frustration of trying to make her see sense, to see how mistaken she was, was almost unbearable. In the end, I'm sure we gave up trying, as we felt she was beyond help.

I get precisely the same feelings of frustration listening to the 'free unicorn with every pack of union-jack boxers' Little Englanders. They are beyond help.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 10:03 AM

Anyway, the main reason I pointed the 'largely' out was to highlight a change of tone, which can be a precursor to a change.

"We will take back control."
"We will take back control."
"We will take back control."
"We will largely take back control."

BZZZZZ! Alarm bells!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 10:01 AM

The few remaining citizens who actually still want to come here is what I meant.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 10:00 AM

Assuming that we'll keep trading with the EU to at least a considerable extent, we will have less control than now, AND we'll be paying tariffs. They won't slacken their trading rules and standards just for us, and we'll no longer have any say in how those standards are set. I suppose we'll have control over not letting in the few remaining EU citizens who we'll sorely need...

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 09:40 AM

This is not ceding Control, it is a case of reaching agreement.

That is precisely my point. Almost everything that is potentially controllable needs an agreement between two or more parties. Neither side is "in control" of that.

It was given as a silly example, I know, but both the butter and the bread on my buttered toast are subject to agreements and business priorities. If a business produces butter according to EU standards and we have a different set of standards then it is entirely that business's decision whether to do something special for us or not. So in neither case are we 'in control'.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 09:11 AM

"Ooo, that's an interesting 'largely'. I don't remember that being in the campaigning."

I would have thought it obvious that no country can be truly independent unless it exists in total isolation. I am sure anyone could work that out. Perhaps you require a campaign to aid buttering your toast of a morning.
Over flights and air traffic management is one obvious area where agreement is required. This is not ceding Control, it is a case of reaching agreement.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 09:06 AM

"I do not think I require some patronising, sandal wearing, little twat from the Gruniard telling me how to think."
Aren't you the feller who has just objected to the racist Ukip being described as "scum"

"You can tell a man who boozes by the company he chooses,
And the bleedin' pig got up and walked away"

Much easier to throw stones at the facts to keep them at bay rather than to have to have to answer them
Now that's what I call "easy peasy"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 08:56 AM

largely in control

Ooo, that's an interesting 'largely'. I don't remember that being in the campaigning. Care to elaborate on some of the things you agree you will NOT be in control of?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 08:54 AM

In what sense are we not already independent? The UK contributes 0.5%, half of one percent, of its total GDP to the EU. We are not in the eurozone. 95% of all laws pertaining to the EU have been fully agreed to by the UK and with around just 2% of EU laws are we in active disagreement. We buy more from them than they buy from us, and it's all tariff-free, and, in very round figures it amounts to about half of all our trade. We can and do trade with the rest of the world, but all thst will now have to be renegotiated. Cor, aren't we good at negotiating! The EU forms a powerful trading bloc that contains the UK population times eight. That's what we're ditching.

So, once we are up to our necks in tariffs, red tape and having to keep to trading rules that we'll no longer have any say in, and have to try to strike favourable deals for our uncompetitive exports with other countries, many of whom are currently laughing their heads off at what we're doing, I'm sure you'll be able to explain to me precisely how we'll be any more "independent" than we are now. Just a gentle word in your shell-like: king, country, Biggles and empire are long dead. Try that on with those prospective trading partners and they'll just laugh all the way to China and India.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 08:11 AM

Easy Peasy! Independant and largely in control. Not part of a grouping racing towards federalism and with it's spending totally out of control.
Away from a political grouping that is increasingly ignoring it's electorate and having an agenda increasingly driven by jackboots from Germany.

I do not think I require some patronising, sandal wearing, little twat from the Gruniard telling me how to think. There is a plenitude of his clones on this forum.

"You?ve turned this country into a backwater. You?ve made us a little people on a little island on the periphery of world events."
Been going down that road since the Boer War, and that was a long time ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 05:39 AM

Apologies for the question marks in place of inverted commas. HTML letting itself down again.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 05:16 AM

Here's a piece I picked up from newscrasher.com, which pretty much sums up everything I feel about the tragic debacle of BrexShit. Perhaps our Forum Crystal-Ball Gazers and Planet-Zog-Dwellers can answer the questions it asks?

"This comment about Brexit in the Guardian has been going viral. It sums up very well how much of the country now feel about Brexit and the people who are forcing the country off the cliff-edge and towards the imminent destruction of not just the economy, but the very fabric of Britain itself.

“Thank you brexiters. You have succeeded in doing what no Armada, airforce, enemy or war has done in 300 years. You’ve made Britain small.
Your vote has manifestly and undeniably reduced this country. You have diminished us in the eyes of the world. Our power has been lessened, our influence has declined, we no longer have the same reach and standing.

You’ve lost us our seat on the international court. You’ve lost us our banks access to Europe. You’ve lost us our position as the cutting edge of European research. You’ve lost us any influence over our European neighbours and friends and as a consequence of that the rest of the world too.

You’ve turned this country into a backwater. You’ve made us a little people on a little island on the periphery of world events.

Taking back control? You’ve given all our power away for a sack full of dreams and a belly full of bile.

Why?

Why have you done this? I don’t understand. What is it? What is this grand dream that you believe we’ve lost and that leaving the EU will bring back?

Is it possible that I’m the only British person alive today that has no clue as to what we’re meant to be fighting for? I literally have no idea what you brexiters want. I know what we’re meant to be against, but not one positive thing we’re meant to be striving towards in this new non European Britain. It seems to be something to do with churchill but other than than not a clue. It also seems that as I don’t know what this shared dream is meant to be then somehow you believe I’m now a traitor, why?

So brexiters please tell us all what you’re for, what you want? What is this “control” you claim to want so badly? What is it control over?

I’m not sure you actually understand yourselves. I think it’s a feeling you’re craving, a feeling of control over a world that is passing you by. I don’t think it amounts to any more than that. You want our country to bend to feelings and that’s it. You’re after obtaining the intangible and ephemeral by dismantling the real and permanent.

So please brexiters if you want me to pronounce shibboleth can you please have the decency of saying it out loud first. Give me a clue as to what you want us to be?”

So, come on Professor, Iains, Nigs, st al! tell us, do. Help us here, we're all ears.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 04:35 AM

More comments on the border issue

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 04:19 AM

"I imagine you meant decent, not decadent, Jim!"
I did, of course - something that to be beyond the concept of these people
When people talk about Western Democracy I always remember Ghandi's response to a question about Western civilisation - "I think it would a a good idea"
True Democracy can never exist while the information needed to run society remains in the hands of the political elite and the privately owned media.

Brexit was sold to the public on the basis of half truths and lies based on a failing economic system - it was scapegoat politics at its very worst - "control our borders and get rid of the "undesirables" and everything will be tikety-boo"
That was Farage's message and it was that which dominated the campaign.
Brexit has now proved to be an economic and social nightmare, if Britain echoes what is happening in Europe, it will become a political nightmare and will have opened the door to the EXTREMIST RIGHT
Jim Caaarroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 04:14 AM

My mind does work like that all the time, Iains. Not that I am claiming I never make mistakes, or there is anything particularly special about it: it is just my way of 'being in the world'. Just like a historian cannot walk through a town without subconsciously (or consciously) continually reflecting on why that building is there and not elsewhere, or when it came to be; or a geologist going through a landscape - they are habitually assessing the geology even if they are unaware of it. Or a good salesman seeing the openings and closes in any conversation they take part in. Or an artist. Or a poet.

Just my way of being happens to have formal logic rolling away in the background the whole time.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 04:09 AM

"What information has become available since the debate to make anyone change their mind anyway?"

Keith, I can't be arsed to type out the salient points of the flow of information that fuels the Brexit debate; if you don't know what this information on the consequences of Brexit that weren't discussed in there run up to the vote then there's little point in discussing it anyway. The media goes over this information in detail everyday.

We are allowed to change our minds; in science it's imperative you question everything and see you might have been wrong in the light of new data, admit it in front of your peers and change your mind; people should try it sometime as it's liberating not to be tied to an ideology or dogma.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 03:26 AM

"Maybe we need to use more formal logic on this thread."

This would assume that all posting have the required skills.

Chance would be a fine thing!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 03:07 AM

¬(∃(¬p) ⇒ ∄p)

Woke up thinking that this morning. It summarises the business with leaflets and buses perfectly.

Maybe we need to use more formal logic on this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Nov 17 - 08:34 PM

I suppose democracy is the best of a bad lot, but, to me, democracy means voting in people who are then there to make the big decisions.