 sj |
||
|
||
BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
|
|
|
Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK From: Nigel Parsons Date: 11 Jul 18 - 07:42 AM No, its a statement that denying the vote to 16-17 year olds, whose futures are the most at threat from brexit, was an absolute disgrace. I have no problem with students voting in two constituencies, they need representation in their home and in their place of study. Why are the futures of 16-17 year olds most at risk? Just because they have longer futures than the earlier generation? By this argument, at what age do you set the lower limit for voting? Why 16 rather than 12? (or 6?) As for allowing students to vote twice, why not the same for workers, home and workplace? Or commercial travellers in every constituency they visit? Your idea of democracy is sadly lacking in any level of coherence, your only suggestions are intended to skew (or screw) the whole process. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK From: Iains Date: 11 Jul 18 - 07:44 AM I detect a few getting a bit twitchy about the outcome should an election be called under present rules. They are obviously not 100% confident of the outcome otherwise they would not be trying to redefine electorate qualifications. And the idea of "Kevins" being able to vote for home and away is a risible piece of attempted socialist social engineering. Dream on boys, it will never happen. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 11 Jul 18 - 08:20 AM David, Guardian, "Contrary to the complacency among Labour’s campaign chiefs, until the last year – when Ukip was taking four or five Tory voters for every one Labour voter – in 2015 the Ukip share of the vote was higher in Labour-held seats than in Conservative-held ones." https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/may/23/labour-win-working-class-voters-ukip |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK From: Iains Date: 11 Jul 18 - 08:24 AM kevin for our American cousins! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK From: Nigel Parsons Date: 11 Jul 18 - 08:25 AM Unfortunately Iains, it appears it does happen: Guardian Cheers |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK From: Iains Date: 11 Jul 18 - 08:44 AM Nigel. As a plethora of ID is required to perform such simple actions as opening a bank account, I see no reason why the same details should not be required to be scanned at a polling booth. A mandatory £5000 fine for double appearances would soon dampen the ardour for cheating. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK From: Nigel Parsons Date: 11 Jul 18 - 09:49 AM Even allowing for inflation the cost of a national ID card would have been a lot less than the cost of HS2 (or of the Brexit proposed payment to the EU). We're going to need one someday, and there are problems it would solve now. When will the government bite the bullet and get on with it? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK From: Iains Date: 11 Jul 18 - 10:00 AM Nigel we are there already in all but name. For example apply online for a driving license and the following is requested: Registration Your driver record Security details National Insurance number UK passport number and at the end you get a government gateway number for being a good little citizen. That kind of crept in by the back door. ID card by any other name I would say. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK From: Nigel Parsons Date: 11 Jul 18 - 10:17 AM But those are not hard & fast requirements. not everyone applying for a driving license will hold a passport. That doesn't stop them getting the license. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK From: DMcG Date: 11 Jul 18 - 10:23 AM ID cards are a big subject in their own right, with the biggest *technical*,questions being what information they contain. For example a government gateway number does not show anything like a photo so it needs to be used as a key into a database which then raises the question who can access the database. Alternatively an ID does contain, for example, a photo so it is a "standalone" system and forgery becomes a problem. All of which is interesting but of minimal relevance to life Post-Brexit. I hear few comments from leave supporters of the to and fro -ing of the past few days. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK From: Iains Date: 11 Jul 18 - 10:31 AM Highly relevant: Corbyn's clots to the fore! https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jul/11/labour-bought-data-on-more-than-1m-mums-and-their-children-emmas-diary |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 11 Jul 18 - 10:37 AM I hear few comments from leave supporters of the to and fro -ing of the past few days. We do not like it either. It follows from Tories having a Remainer for a leader. The Brexit project is in danger, but it can only be a temporary set back now. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK From: Steve Shaw Date: 11 Jul 18 - 11:05 AM Especially now that Trump is arriving, I do think we should preserve the two-sides-of-the-pond difference in the ways we apply "licence" and license." Whaddya think, Nigel? :-) |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK From: Iains Date: 11 Jul 18 - 11:13 AM Oh Dear, reduced to drawing attention to spelling. The remainiacs obviously have no sensible arguments to support their position. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK From: Iains Date: 11 Jul 18 - 03:08 PM The Tory heartlands are not amused! A special report from everybody's reliable news source Guido Fawkes. https://order-order.com/2018/07/11/telegraph-letters-editor-readers-havent-angry-since-expenses-scandal/ |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK From: Raggytash Date: 11 Jul 18 - 03:56 PM Iains, do you really have to resort to a right wing blogger? Really? If you linked to a source that has some credence it may help your argument. Given the disruptions within the conservative party since the weekend do you actually have any good news to tell us? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK From: robomatic Date: 11 Jul 18 - 09:00 PM "I've said it before and I'll say it again, Democracy just doesn't work!" (I can't resist a good Simpsons quote in times of adversity.) |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK From: David Carter (UK) Date: 12 Jul 18 - 02:53 AM And there, Keith, in the comments section of the Telegraph, is your Ruling Class. Your self-styled elite. Whilst our representatives in Parliament work to try to minimise the damage, not minimise it enough in my view but thats another argument, the Tufton-Buftons in the Telegraph are outraged. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK From: Nigel Parsons Date: 12 Jul 18 - 03:26 AM David, if you are referring to the response to Mrs May's 'proclamation' on Friday it is not a case of "our representatives in Parliament work to try to minimise the damage" but of parliament trying to reverse the vote by the British people to leave the EU. The vote was clear. Mrs May's latest white |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK From: Iains Date: 12 Jul 18 - 03:53 AM If you linked to a source that has some credence it may help your argument. Do I have to teach you how to read Raggy? Is the Telegraph not a mainstream newspaper?(A profitable one unlike the gruniard) Here is the same data from another source: It is the content that is the issue, not the provider. I seem to have to repeat this argument constantly. Remainiacs must be very simple folk. The most simple of concepts escapes them! https://inews.co.uk/news/brexit/telegraph-treason-article-theresa-may/ and from the hotbed of false news lo and behold - the same story! https://www.rt.com/uk/432676-telegraph-theresa-may-treason/ This suggests the rank and file see the PM as betraying the electorate. As they say in the vernacular, " her ass is grass!" |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK From: Jim Carroll Date: 12 Jul 18 - 04:28 AM Isn't it great when you watch right wing nutters falling out? Bring it on Trump is now getting ready to sell Britain down the Swanee and climb into bed with Putin 'The Universal Soldier' So much fro Britain "standing on her own feet" His latest outburst against Nato really had dragged him out of his 'world takeover closet - where is James Bond when you need him THis is what Ians and hiis ilk are supporting - fuck the rest of the world Jim Carroll |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK From: Nigel Parsons Date: 12 Jul 18 - 04:36 AM Isn't it great when you watch right wing nutters falling out? Bring it on Trump is now getting ready to sell Britain down the Swanee and climb into bed with Putin 'The Universal Soldier' You may not have noticed, but he seems to have been even harsher to Germany/EU, so if this relates to the Brexit thread, our getting out of EU puts us in a better position. (At least we won't be in his condemnation of Europe) |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK From: Iains Date: 12 Jul 18 - 04:55 AM The referendum was a vote to remain or leave the EU. Many have the opinion that what is on offer by the PM is in essence "membership of the EU but with no vote" in other words an emasculated membership. The valiant Brexiteers rightly see this as a sellout, nothing to do with Nat or Trump or Putin. The simple remainiacs seem to confuse all these discrete issues as being part and parcel of the same thing. Discussing it with them is rather like discussing the finer points of astrophysics with my pet guppy. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK From: Steve Shaw Date: 12 Jul 18 - 06:15 AM "The referendum was a vote to remain or leave the EU." Correct. That and only that was what I voted on. Nothing else. The details are still down to the politicians, who have to find practical solutions. There was no mention of customs unions, single markets or Irish borders on my ballot paper. That's for our leaders to thrash out. We elect them to do that kind of dirty work. Just as we elect them to make big decisions such as whether or not we should be in the EU. Unfortunately, the cowardly Cameron, running scared of UKIP and his own backwoodsmen, handed that one down to an ignorant electorate. Good job there WAS no mention of a customs union or single market on the ballot paper. Most of those voting wouldn't have had a bloody clue what they were. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK From: Nigel Parsons Date: 12 Jul 18 - 06:36 AM There was no mention of customs unions, single markets or Irish borders on my ballot paper. No, but they were mentioned in the debates. (except possibly the Irish border) The customs union and single market are both EU constructs. leaving the EU would automatically mean leaving those. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK From: Iains Date: 12 Jul 18 - 06:43 AM "Most of those voting wouldn't have had a bloody clue what they were." Perhaps you would like an IQ test pass as a vital step to enfranchisement, or perhaps a PhD in geopolitics. and politicians cannot be trusted! Yet you would leave all the decision making to them? No surprise the opposition is such a mess then, if all share your views. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 12 Jul 18 - 06:54 AM David, the Tufton-Buftons in the Telegraph are outraged. No. They are just Telegraph readers. The core Tory vote. Not any kind of elite or ruling class. No Tory government can afford to alienate them. Steve, . There was no mention of customs unions, single markets or Irish borders on my ballot paper. Of course not on the ballot paper, but it was made explicit in the campaigns that voting leave would take us out of both. The Irish border is an invented issue. No change is needed. . Good job there WAS no mention of a customs union or single market on the ballot paper. Most of those voting wouldn't have had a bloody clue what they were. Only if they had ignored both campaigns! the cowardly Cameron, running scared of UKIP and his own backwoodsmen, handed that one down to an ignorant electorate. With the full support of both Labour and Lib Dems. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK From: Backwoodsman Date: 12 Jul 18 - 07:10 AM "Unfortunately, the cowardly Cameron, running scared of UKIP and his own backwoodsmen, handed that one down to an ignorant electorate." Keep my family out of it please. Our self-respect, and sense of decency and fair play, wouldn't allow any of us to align ourselves with the dreadful Tories or the hideous UKIP fruitcakes. ;-) |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK From: SPB-Cooperator Date: 12 Jul 18 - 09:02 AM "The Irish border is an invented issue. No change is needed." So you agree that if there will continue to be an ooen Border between NI and ROI, there will also be open borders between the rest of the UK and the EU??? If not, then please reconcile this and/or explain why leavers are not hypocrites and explain why one part of the UK that the government depends upon its DUP Mps to cling on to power are a superior species to the rest of us |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK From: David Carter (UK) Date: 12 Jul 18 - 09:02 AM Of course the core Tory vote are the ruling class. I hesitate to use the term elite because that would imply merit, when they have none. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK From: Nigel Parsons Date: 12 Jul 18 - 09:26 AM So you agree that if there will continue to be an ooen Border between NI and ROI, there will also be open borders between the rest of the UK and the EU??? This comment works on the supposition that there are currently open borders between UK and the rest of EU. There are not. There is a bloody great channel in between, and even those who drive under it, or fly over it, are met by customs stations. This is, in no way, analogous to the situation in Ireland. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK From: SPB-Cooperator Date: 12 Jul 18 - 11:13 AM The English channel and customs controls do not interfere with the right of EU/UK nationals to move freely across the border. If hard borders are not instigated on the NI/ROI border, then there is no physical barrier to prevent free movement. Therefore, to instigate border restrictions impeding freedom of movement on mainland points of entry are discriminatory. And if a nasty DUP supporting piece of work is entitle to free movement to/from EU (aka ROI) then so is everyone else in the UK. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK From: Nigel Parsons Date: 12 Jul 18 - 11:19 AM The English channel and customs controls do not interfere with the right of EU/UK nationals to move freely across the border. If hard borders are not instigated on the NI/ROI border, then there is no physical barrier to prevent free movement. Do you actually read, and think about, what you post. There may be no physical border between NI/ROI, but we have a freedom of movement arrangement between us anyway. There are physical barriers between UK/(rest of)EU, and between ROI/(rest of)EU. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 12 Jul 18 - 12:32 PM David, Of course the core Tory vote are the ruling class. Of course they are not. They are ordinary people with no special powers or privileges. SPB, If there is free trade then no border infrastructure is required.There are differences across the border already, and smuggling is a constant problem already. If there is not free trade between UK and EU there is still no need for infrastructure. The volume of trade across that border is tiny. Most of it is from large businesses that can submit there trade for tarifs as they do already for duties. Much of the remaining trade can be classed as local and not requiring tariffs. Smuggling will be an issue as it already is. Any lost revenue will overwhelmingly be from UK. A closed border is completely impossible anyway. It is 300 miles long with about 200 crossing points, mostly remote. It can not be closed so we just make it work as well as possible and the police will continue to chase the smugglers. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK From: Iains Date: 12 Jul 18 - 12:35 PM The only area of free movement in the EU is within the Schengen area and even that has certain restrictions in places. The UK has never been a part of it and also if flying into the republic of Ireland passports are frequently checked. Free movement is perhaps a misnomer. There is a world of difference between an entitlement to move within an area and a further entitlement to move without checking of any documents. There would seem to be considerable confusion here. Is this because of little englanders posting, who have not been abroad? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK From: Jim Carroll Date: 12 Jul 18 - 01:36 PM "You may not have noticed, " Oh I did Baccy - a frightening attempt at bulliding a new Axis Did some mpron suggest that the Irish border issue was "invented" How thickly Little English can you get!! Jim Carroll |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 12 Jul 18 - 01:45 PM Jim, instead of calling me names, point out the errors in my reasons given for saying it is an invented problem. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK From: Raggytash Date: 12 Jul 18 - 05:48 PM From a brief look at the news this evening it would seem that May's euro proposal is depp in the water with Rees Moog saying he would not vote for it. It would seem the hardline Brexiteers are going to put a spoke in the wheels from the outset. Good news available anywhere? Anyone? (well almost anyone Johnson, Gove, Farage and their ilk need not bother to reply) |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK From: Jim Carroll Date: 12 Jul 18 - 06:03 PM If you don't understand the border issues and its implications for both the Republic and the six counties - both of whom believe it to be a real issue, what't the point of pointing them out Neither of them believe it is an "invented" issue You don't want to know anything that doesn't suit your closed little Brit mind - hence my description Jim Carroll |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK From: Raggytash Date: 12 Jul 18 - 06:24 PM That of course should have read "dead in the water" Depp I believe is an actor!! Hoops Jim and ever more hoops!!! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK From: SPB-Cooperator Date: 12 Jul 18 - 08:19 PM The Schengen area allows movement between member states without birder checks, the same way as we can move from London to Birmignham without passing through a visible border. That is a fact - I have travelled from Czech Republic to Poland, Austria, Germany with no border checks. My partners son regukarly drives between prague and Germany - ni visible border. With the Shanty crew we travelled freely from Dunkirk through Belgium, Netherlands and Germany, the only time our passports were checked were on the ferry crossings. This ws nothiong to do with freedom of movement, but confirmation of our identity and our right of freedom of movement. It is only racists who want to apply conditions about who has and hasn't the right to live/work in the Uk. ?? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK From: Backwoodsman Date: 13 Jul 18 - 02:28 AM So now the POTUS has interfered in the BrexShit debate by announcing, IIUHC, that the U.K. can wave goodbye to a trade agreement with the US if we go down The Praying Mantis's route of 'partial Brexit' that emerged from the Chequers bun-fight. So...the message seems to be that it's 'out of the frying-pan and into the fire' - stop letting the EU 'tell us what to do' and start letting the US, led by a megalomaniac, xenophobic, racist sexual predator, tell us what to do. Another fine mess you've gotten us into, BrexShitters. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK From: David Carter (UK) Date: 13 Jul 18 - 02:39 AM I don't know why Rees Mogg thinks himself in the slightest bit important, his views command nothing like a majority in parliament. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK From: David Carter (UK) Date: 13 Jul 18 - 02:44 AM Trump thinks that Boris Johnson would make a great Prime Minister. Trump has a lot in common with Boris, he is a liar, an adulterer, he has used public money for his own vanity projects, and he has dragged the name of his country into the gutter. Not surprising that sewer rats should stick together. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK From: Dave the Gnome Date: 13 Jul 18 - 02:54 AM I wonder where all the people are, including the arse-wipe media, that were railing against Obama when he suggested that Brexit would not be a wise move? How come they are not screaming and shouting about US interference in UK policy now? Rhetorical questions BYW. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK From: Backwoodsman Date: 13 Jul 18 - 03:16 AM And, of course, it's the politics of the school playground - "If your their friend, you can't be my friend"! Precisely the kind of childish bollocks one would expect from the Big Orange Man-Baby. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK From: Iains Date: 13 Jul 18 - 03:30 AM "The Schengen area allows movement between member states without birder checks, the same way as we can move from London to Birmignham without passing through a visible border. That is a fact Oh no it is not! The facts below. As I have alluded to many times before. http://www.infomigrants.net/en/post/8750/border-controls-in-europe-s-schengen-zone Also certain countries have random road blocks as a matter of course. From firsthand experience the Guardia Civil in Spain and An Garda Síochána in Ireland frequently set up random road blocks. In Ireland this can include other government departments to check ID and possession of PPS number. There may be a theoretical freedom of movement, but the reality is that border checks have been introduced,justified by fears of terrorism, and random internal checks occur in certain countries to endure that those stopped have a right to be there. And to stop the little fellow that likes to dispute everything I say about Ireland a link is supplied below to confirm what I have said. https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/garda-social-welfare-inspectors-and-revenue-officers-all-present-at-multioperation-road-ch |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK From: Nigel Parsons Date: 13 Jul 18 - 03:36 AM I wonder where all the people are, including the arse-wipe media, that were railing against Obama when he suggested that Brexit would not be a wise move? How come they are not screaming and shouting about US interference in UK policy now? It may be a rhetorical question, but that doesn't mean that there is no answer. Obama's intervention was in support of what the government of the day wanted (some have even said it was specifically requested by someone within the government). Trump's intervention is in support of what the people of the UK voted (by majority) for, and does not sit well with the intentions of the current government. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK From: Iains Date: 13 Jul 18 - 03:41 AM Nigel that is a very significant point you make. Thank you! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 13 Jul 18 - 03:57 AM How come they are not screaming and shouting about US interference in UK policy now? Because we are not engaged in an election campaign as we were when Obama tried to influence the outcome. Obama said that they would put us at the back of the queue for a trade deal if we did not do what he said. Trump has said we would be at the front of the queue but now points out that the white paper version of Brexit would make a trade deal impossible. We needed to know that. |