BS: Post Brexit life in the UK

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Mar 18 - 12:18 PM

... accept in some contexts, I should have said.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 02 Mar 18 - 12:24 PM

Far too soon. The text needs to be digested. You know that I prefer facts, unlike some others I could name.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 02 Mar 18 - 12:39 PM

When is May going to stop posturing and realise that as far as EU27 she is nothing but a worthless nobody and because as a result of her actions,and nobody else, the EU owes her absolutely nothing. She should be crawling on her hand and knees and begging her betters for each and every concession in UK's favour.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Mar 18 - 12:42 PM

Ok. Can I take that as an implied promise to post your own account without links or cut and paste in the next day or so?

I watched the speech so could give my own impression now, as Steve did. If you have to read the text that may not be possible yet. So I will hold off to let you and Keith and Nigel and others say what you thought of it all.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Mar 18 - 01:23 PM

Here's Jonathan Freedland on the Guardian webs, on the Irish border issue:

"Pity poor Theresa, forced to tell the rest of Europe – as she did again today – that Britain will leave the single market and customs union yet will allow no hard border in Ireland and no border in the Irish sea. It's like me insisting that I will be beach-body ready by the summer while maintaining my cast-iron commitment to doing no exercise and eating what I want. Solomon himself could not resolve that one."

She now seems to want to make so many compromises, apropos of pharmaceuticals and the aviation industry, for example, even paying money in order to be associate members of deals with those sectors, among many other things, that it looks like brexit just isn't worth it. We are a damn sight better off where we are, setting aside all ideologies on both sides, and I'm sure that the EU response to the speech will confirm that.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Mar 18 - 01:39 PM

The EU itself has produced a report explaining how a frictionless border can be created whatever the final Brexit settlement.

The threat of a hard border is at best disingenuous but at worst, and most likely, mischievous and dishonest.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Mar 18 - 01:59 PM

I am ready to talk about that EU report, if you are. Shall we start with section 4.4?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Mar 18 - 02:32 PM

4.4 is about the technology to be used.
I am not qualified to comment, but I am sure they know what they are talking about.
The main points of the report are these,

"TThis study, commissioned by the European Parliament's Policy Department for Citizens' Rights and Constitutional Affairs at the request of the AFCO Committee, provides background on cross-border movement and trade between Northern Ireland and Ireland and identifies international standards and best practices and provide insights into creating a smooth border experience. The technical solution provided is based on innovative approaches with a focus on cooperation, best practices and technology that is independent of any political agreements on the EU's exit from the EU and offers a template for future UK-EU border relationships."

also,"Finally, the solution presented aims to be one that can be implemented regardless of the political agreement reached over the UK's departure from the EU. This solution needs to build on standards, technologies and best practices and take innovative approaches to solving border issues. It should also be scalable and can provide the basis for future UKEU border relationships."

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Mar 18 - 02:43 PM

You notice the keyword there is 'smooth'. Not open. 4.4 talks about things like ANPR which we have been told won't be installed It also talks about things like RFID which is the sort of technology used for Oystercards, contactless phones etc. That all relies on readers, just like with the gates on the Underground. it is possible to do that 'smoothly' as most passengers on the Underground will attest. What is not possible it to do it without infrastructure, which Teresa May has ruled out.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 02 Mar 18 - 04:39 PM

The key word is infrastructure. This can mean different things to different people.One meaning is the basic physical and organizational structures and facilities (e.g. buildings, roads, power supplies) needed for the operation of a society or enterprise. A more modern meaning would give a wider definition to encompass the facilities required for the modern electronic age.
Motorway tolls would be a perfect example. Today the barriers and toll collectors can be dispensed with the adoption of pre or post use billing, utilising electronic technology. Clock a numberplate and automatically it cab be placed on a database for all kinds of "nefarious" purposes involving the subsequent filching of money.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Mar 18 - 04:56 PM

'Clocking a number plate' requires a cctv camera at or close to every crossing point. Installing that infrastructure has been ruled out.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 02 Mar 18 - 05:20 PM

Just as easy to fit tracking devices on trucks. Probably many have them already. The GPS would enable border crossing to be monitored.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Mar 18 - 05:30 PM

That is easily circumvented by those who wish to. It is ripe for exploitation.

Anyone digested May's speech yet?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 02 Mar 18 - 07:35 PM

From: DMcG - PM
Date: 02 Mar 18 - 06:24 AM

Sod all to do with brexit of course. Well done for distracting us once again

As ever, you ignore the fact that the subject was brought up by one who appears to be on your side in this debate: Jim Carroll.
I was just rebutting his comments.

Please try to keep up with the actual conversation.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 02 Mar 18 - 07:48 PM

From: Dave the Gnome - PM
Date: 02 Mar 18 - 09:30 AM
The debate about lies and half truths has been done to death. Here is one for a start. There are plenty more but I am not jumping through any more of your hoops.

The demonstrably false claims of the EU referendum campaign

Now, Fuck off Keith.

I told you I would not be as polite.

DtG

I'm not sure whether you read the link before quoting, but it includes lies by the Remainers, as well as by the Brexiteers.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Mar 18 - 03:02 AM

I have already said on many occasions that there were lies and half truths on both sides, Nigel. The whole point was that one of 'your side' as you put it insists that no lies were told at all and even in the light of overwhelming evidence is still saying the same. Glad that you can see that the lies were abundant.

As to your previous post to DMcG, he had simply copied a post I had made earlier so your 'do keep up' remark needs to be bounced right back at you. And it still has sod all to do with brexit even if 'he started it Miss'.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Mar 18 - 03:26 AM

Do keep up

I try my best, just as I try to keep this thread talking about 'Post Brexit' - not the referendum, not Michael Foot's attire and not wine.

I make the odd slip up myself, naturally: we are all human. But I do try.
So the current topics are Teresa May's speech and whether the EU paper on borders could resolve the Irish boarder issues.

Over to you, Nigel: we await your comments on those.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Mar 18 - 04:47 AM

'Clocking a number plate' requires a cctv camera at or close to every crossing point. Installing that infrastructure has been ruled out.

It does not have to be installed close to the border. Just covering the approaches to urban areas, and they already exist in the North.

That is easily circumvented by those who wish to. It is ripe for exploitation.

Only on a small scale, and that happens now and always has.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Mar 18 - 05:06 AM

For those, like me, who cannot stand to listen to the damned woman here is the full speech in text

May's speech

To me it is typical political doublespeak. I seldom trust anything politicians say and trust maid May and her merry men even less. There are however a couple of things that have stuck with me. The first is the line

"We must bring our country back together, taking into account the views of everyone who cares about this issue, from both sides of the debate.".

To me, this is vital. The division caused by this is horrendous and, at its worst, caused the death of a young woman and an unprecedented rise in hate crime. We must work to heal these rifts. This does not mean those against brexit should roll over and play dead. Far from it, we should work tirelessly to make the best of a bad job but it should be without antagonism. I don't doubt that those for leave, particularly on here, will continue to repeat the 'tough shit, you lost' mantra but as even May and BoJo seem to understand that the concerns of all must be addressed then I will give them the benefit of the doubt and hope for a sensible arrangement. We shall see.

The second thing is that it mentions new agreements with the EU and the rest of the world. As a globalist I find this quite optimistic. The world has limited resources. They should be metered out to the whole world, not just to powerful trading conglomerates. If there is one single piece of good that could come out of us leaving the EU then it should be the strengthening of the global economy. Of course that could entail a single global market, customs union and global freedom of movement. Wouldn't that be lovely for those who want the borders closing :-) Again, we can only wait and see.

Overall, I don't feel the speech did much, if anything, to strengthen our position but it did give me a bit of hope in unexpected ways. Of course it could be just politicians lying to us again but we are used to that.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Mar 18 - 05:24 AM

That is easily circumvented by those who wish to. It is ripe for exploitation.

Only on a small scale, and that happens now and always has.

While my main objection to most of the proposals around the Irish border is to ensure we do not recreate the Troubles, I also have no wish to incentivise criminal activity along the border. Things are 'small scale' precisely because the regulations are and have always been sufficiently similar so the profit opportunities are small. The greater the difference in regulation or taxation, the greater the potential profit and so the greater the attractiveness to the criminal mind.

Remember a border is not just about taxation. It is also about such things as fake goods and keeping out 'the bad guy'. So any scheme that neglects that second aspect is inherently flawed. Number plate recognition, for example, can spot which vehicles were where and when, but tells you nothing about who or what was in them.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Mar 18 - 08:28 AM

I feel remiss in not thanking you for your views on May's speech, Dave. If you don't mind I will wait for some contributions from 'the other side' before saying much. But I do agree with you that whatever happens we will have to find ways of getting along together, irrespective of how we voted.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Mar 18 - 09:17 AM

DMcG, there are hundreds of roads crossing the border, mostly remote B roads and country lanes.
The border always has been porous and always will, but technology will make it harder for the crooks to get away with it.

BBC 2001,
"During 2001 customs officers in Northern Ireland seized thousands of gallons of smuggled diesel, millions of smuggled cigarettes, bootleg liquor, fake CDs, DVDs, computer games and football team merchandise. "

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Mar 18 - 09:28 AM

No need for thanks DMcG but it is apprecuiated :-)

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Mar 18 - 09:48 AM

That doesn't sound terribly small scale to me, Keith, but these things are all relative. Even so, I don't see how making the rewards for such crimes bigger will do anything but increase it.

You also seem to have more faith in technology than I have. I, on the other hand, am convinced given the right incentive and return, people are pretty good at outwitting it.

For example, were I so inclined and we uses your ANPR in urban areas idea, I would simply change vehicle outside the urban area.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Mar 18 - 09:49 AM

DMcG, why single out one person to thank for giving their views.
That is what we all do.
I hope you are not joining or forming a clique.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Mar 18 - 09:53 AM

I singled him out because I asked everyine for views on May's speech and he has done so. Rest assured when you post yours in similar detail and in your own words as he has done, I will also thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Mar 18 - 10:00 AM

For example, were I so inclined and we uses your ANPR in urban areas idea, I would simply change vehicle outside the urban area.

Yes, and that is what they do now because the cameras are already in place.
These are smuggling rackets, just a minute proportion of legitimate international trade.

After Brexit legitimate trade will whiz across the border unhindered as it does now. That is all that is required by EU.
May has again stated emphatically that will happen, but EU and Remainers just won't take yes for an answer.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Mar 18 - 10:10 AM

I am going to be busy for a good few hours now. Someone else may want to elaborate on the difference between saying what you want and knowing a way to achieve it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Mar 18 - 10:16 AM

They do not just say they want it, they are pledging it.
They know how to do it and so does EU because it is in their own report!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 03 Mar 18 - 10:58 AM

My take on the PM's speech is that it does not really take us any further forward.
I would prefer to see the economics of the situation revolving around brexit given far more prominence, because that is where the meat of the discord arises.
Some facts.
EU exports to UK $353170 million    #2 after US
Non agricultural $300000 million
Agricultural    $50000 million

UK exports to EU $214076 million
Non agricultural $196122 million
Agricultural $17194 million

The European countries that trade the most with the UK, and which will be most affected by Brexit, are Germany, the Netherlands and France.
When considering only agri-food trade. France and the Netherlands are the main UK partners, and Ireland replaces Germany in the top three by bilateral trade value. The three main partners account for half of UK imports and exports in the agri-food sectors.
The UK is the third largest export market for Germany after US and France.

France is by far the largest recipient of CAP funding 10054952i(n 1000 EUR). This is about the equivalent of the UK contribution to the EU (once Peter and Paul have both robbed and rewarded)
The statistics clearly demonstrate the EU will be left hurting if they do not stop their stupid games. Ireland will be damaged the most severely unless the EU get around a table and negotiate. The EU knows full well the sensitivity of the border and the peace process. They are being deliberately provocative and should be told in no uncertain terms that the porosity of the border is a matter for Ireland and the UK to resolve. All I see so far is a lot of hot air and posturing on both sides.
Walking away without an agreement will impact the EU far more financially than the UK. This needs to be hammered home to them.
The threat of no more Vorsprung durch Technik, and no more froggie food really ought to get them around a table pronto!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Mar 18 - 11:36 AM

Don't worry about Keith, DMcG. He just always needs recognition. He doesn't do analysis of things like May's speech though in case he gets it wrong. Heaven forbid.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 03 Mar 18 - 12:42 PM

So, how will ANPR show the nationality of people crossing the border? How will ANPR work out if any goods being transported are subject to duties? Why should a single penny be spent on infrastructure before 100% of the austerity cuts to Ealing have been reversed? If the leavers want to pay for it out of their own pockets that would be more acceptable. If there is going to be an open borde between NI and the EU there must also be an open border betwwen the rest of UK and the EU, or else it proves that May (and everyone who kept her in power)is a racist by directly discriminating against most of the UK just to cling to power.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Mar 18 - 01:23 PM

how will ANPR show the nationality of people crossing the border?
There is no requirement for that.

How will ANPR work out if any goods being transported are subject to duties?

That is not a problem. The current situation is that no checks are made for duty or tax payable now.

Why should a single penny be spent on infrastructure before 100% of the austerity cuts to Ealing have been reversed?

28 governments think it necessary.

If the leavers want to pay for it out of their own pockets that would be more acceptable.

We don't.

If there is going to be an open borde between NI and the EU there must also be an open border betwwen the rest of UK

The EU report say the border they envisage can indeed be scaled up for that purpose.
Depending on the trade terms, no borders may be required anyway, but so far EU refuse to discuss the trade terms.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Mar 18 - 02:15 PM

I only have a moment between events, but as promised:

Thanks for that, Iains. Identifying significant things omitted from the speech is also important.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Mar 18 - 07:28 PM

This from Michael Heseltine today:

Tory hopes of uniting the party behind Theresa May's latest vision for Brexit faded as former deputy prime minister Michael Heseltine dismissed her latest speech as just more "phrases, generalisations and platitudes" which had done nothing to make a deal more likely.

While most Conservative MPs and peers gave the prime minister a period of grace after Friday's address, Heseltine said all May had done was offer more detail on a set of demands that the European Union had made clear all along it would never agree to.

Talking to the Observer, he said: "The speech just moves us further down the cherry-picking road. It set out the cherries that Britain wants to pick but that approach completely ignores the fact that the EU has said, 'sorry there is no cherry picking'.”

He added: "Why is it that after 18 months since the referendum we have not got any closer with these issues? The answer is simple: because no one has got any answer about how to do it."

He said the huge gulf between what May was asking for and what the EU would be prepared to give was as wide, if not wider, than ever, leaving UK businesses in despair, and with no option but to consider postponing investment, or placing their money and plans elsewhere.

"While that gap remains industry will continue to make assumptions that will involve moving investment from here to the continent," he said.



A lifelong europhile, Heseltine conceded that the prime minister was in a difficult position, as rightwing Tory MPs held "a knife to her throat".

But neither the prime minister nor her cabinet had made any progress on the central Brexit problems, including the Irish border, because such issues were essentially not solvable unless the UK stayed in the EU.

The only way forward, he said, was for the issues to be put back to parliament, and then to an election or referendum. "The downsides are becoming more evident as time passes. We have had a serious devaluation of the currency. We have turned ourselves from the fastest growing to the slowest growing economy in Europe and we have made a complete Horlicks of the Irish border. I am totally with the view of Tony Blair and John Major that this matter has got to go back to parliament and possibly to a referendum or a general election."

I hate Heseltine, but I could hardly have put it better myself.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Mar 18 - 07:30 PM

Sorry, I might have pruned that a bit but I hit submit instead of preview. It stands, though, I reckon.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Mar 18 - 08:40 PM

And, let's face it, the freedom to make trade deals across the globe gives us the freedom to make trade deals with a bloke in America who has spent the the last couple of days coming out with outrageous protectionist bullshit about steel imports and European cars and who sez that trade wars are good, and with the recently-declared biggest dictatorship the world has ever seen. Good, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Mar 18 - 03:02 AM

So here is my take on Teresa May's speech. I am certainly not going to comment on the thing line by line, but I think I need to write in at least as much detail as anyone else. I will adopt the convention that sections in italics are direct quotations of her speech, not from other posters.

=====

Overall, I agree with Iains' comment that "it does not really take us any further forward". It seemed to me a very fragile thing: a shade more solid than a bubble, but still terribly weak. And it did not seem to be to be particularly directed at Europe. Instead, it was aimed at convincing the UK that the Tories had a united vision, and to that end it warned both the wings of the party not to rock the boat and offered them a few promises.


, it must protect people's jobs and security. People in the UK voted for our country to have a new and different relationship with Europe, but while the means may change our shared goals surely have not - to work together to grow our economies and keep our people safe

The word 'different' leaps out. Not much sense of sunny uplands there. No vision of a Britain bestriding the world. Just 'different'. That is about as low key a promise as you could make. Then "protecting people's jobs". Remember the Government has already voted against including the existing EU worker's rights in the withdrawal bill. So while it is not spelled out, I think this 'protection' is the desire to get trade deals which need workers in the UK. The promise is the search for jobs, not any effort to protect whatever job you have. For example I see no commitment to the working hours limit in that 'protection', nor anything to suggest more protections for zero hours worker.

We must bring our country back together, taking into account the views of everyone who cares about this issue, from both sides of the debate. I think Dave picked out this one. Despite a deep bitterness and sense of division over this topic, we need a sense of perspective. Unlike many countries or our own past, this is a long way from a civil war. Jo Cox aside, this is a blood-free argument. And I think deep down most people recognise a 'muddling-through' aspect to this. Life after Brexit will not be as bleak as some on the remain side think, not will it be the huge success some leavers think. It will be somewhere in between. And eventually we will find a way to get on together. It may be a long time before that is complete - there are still divisions between some towns in the UK that follow the lines of the Viking borders - but we will reach a working arrangement eventually. Though I will not be in the least surprised if there are still occasional 'blame it on Brexit' remarks two or three decades from now.

Successive British governments have worked tirelessly - together with all the parties in Northern Ireland and with the Irish Government - to bring about the historic achievement of peace.

This is an achievement that we should all be proud of, and protect. That is why I have consistently put upholding the Belfast Agreement at the heart of the UK's approach.

Our departure from the EU causes very particular challenges for Northern Ireland, and for Ireland. We joined the EU together 45 years ago. It is not surprising that our decision to leave has caused anxiety and a desire for concrete solutions.

We have been clear all along that we don't want to go back to a hard border in Ireland. We have ruled out any physical infrastructure at the border, or any related checks and controls.

But it is not good enough to say, 'We won't introduce a hard border; if the EU forces Ireland to do it, that's down to them'. We chose to leave; we have a responsibility to help find a solution.

But we can't do it on our own. It is for all of us to work together. And the Taoiseach and I agreed when we met recently that our teams and the Commission should now do just that.

This is a bit of mixed bag. There is a repeat of the promise that there will be no infrastructure at the border. That is, no ANPR, no RFID readers, no stopping and inspecting of vehicles. [There was a clarification in the past that the Government regards CCTV as 'physical infrastructure']   There is equally a direct dismissal of the idea that if the EU has a border it has nothing to do with us. Any border, whoever builds it, is an unacceptable border.

However, it remains completely opaque how this can be achieved, merely saying we all need to work together to find a solution. Remember the legal version of the text is only a few weeks away.

My personal guess is that there will be a 'zero infrastructure' border just as there is now and that the Government will accept a form of words that in practice is equivalent to the current EU proposal, but with a sufficient minor tweak to allow them to claim it isn't. For example, I am sure the 'Trusted Trader' scheme will be in there in some form.

Life is going to be different. In certain ways, our access to each other's markets will be less than it is now
Again different, rather than better. And an acceptance that in some ways at least things will be worse. Grown up language.

It also means that the ultimate arbiter of disputes about our future partnership cannot be the court of either party.
An easily missed one, this. Parliament will not be supreme here: we are not as 'in control' as some might like.

And in other areas like workers' rights or the environment, the EU should be confident that we will not engage in a race to the bottom in the standards and protections we set. There is no serious political constituency in the UK which would support this - quite the opposite.
Again, actions speak louder than words. This has been voted against very recently. I will believe it if it forms part of the international treaty. I will have some, but less, confidence if it is part of domestic law. With neither, just empty words I am afraid.

The UK will need to make a strong commitment that its regulatory standards will remain as high as the EU's. That commitment, in practice, will mean that UK and EU regulatory standards will remain substantially similar in the future.
A cake and eat it moment, I think. If the UK decided that its standards were to be at least as high as the EU, and a suitable confirmation scheme was in place, that would be possible. If, however, in any area the UK regulation were not as strict as the EU, the whole system explodes. And this is where the US trade deal with its differing food standards raises its head.

In some cases Parliament might choose to pass an identical law - businesses who export to the EU tell us that it is strongly in their interest to have a single set of regulatory standards that mean they can sell into the UK and EU markets.

If the Parliament of the day decided not to achieve the same outcomes as EU law, it would be in the knowledge that there may be consequences for our market access.


This is a particularly good example of making promises to each side that they think they can live with, but actually leaving the whole thing unresolved. The Remain side are being offered that laws could be identical to the EU, and, via the Withdrawal Bill, that is where they will start. So the Remainers can be happy that we overcome a big hurdle on dealing with the EU. Moreover, it can only be altered by Parliament, so it is protected.

Conversely, the Leavers recognise that as long as the commitment to have the same laws is not part of the treaty, Parliament can change them. And even if the opportunity does not come for 10 or 20 years they have played the waiting game before: in the end they will be able to change it to whatever they want.

I can see the internal desirability of this slight of hand; there is not a cat in hell's change the EU will go along with it, in my opinion.

We will also want to explore with the EU, the terms on which the UK could remain part of EU agencies such as those that are critical for the chemicals, medicines and aerospace industries: the European Medicines Agency, the European Chemicals Agency, and the European Aviation Safety Agency.

An important recognition that this is the only sensible way of dealing with these topics ...

And, of course, Parliament would remain ultimately sovereign. It could decide not to accept these rules, but with consequences for our membership of the relevant agency and linked market access rights
... but immediately slam the brakes on and reverse.

A generation from now what will be remembered is not the rough and tumble of negotiation but whether we reached an enduring solution cast in the interests of the people we are all here to serve.

So my message to our friends in Europe is clear.

We know what we want. We understand your principles. We have a shared interest in getting this right. So let's get on with it

Wouldn't it have been nicer if she could have said 'what will be remembered is how we reached ..' rather than 'whether'.


=====


So what will happen next? As I say, it seems fragile. Rees-Mogg can certainly say he is comfortable with it because the UK Parliament is in charge (with a few exceptions). If an interviewer is astute enough to question him about how much Parliament can subsequently change he will confirm it can most of any agreement based on this - and the bubble of unity bursts.

By and large, I don't think the EU will see much useful in it, so in a matter of weeks much will be overturned. It is certainly nowhere near a legal text corresponding the December agreements, nor is it an informal explanation of such a text.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Mar 18 - 04:36 AM

I think you are quite right DMcG and thanks for substantiating my trite summary, 'doublespeak', so clearly.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Mar 18 - 06:51 AM

I have just watched "Soft Border Patrol" which covers in depth how the invisible border can be achieved.
It is available on BBC iPlayer.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Mar 18 - 07:04 AM

It would have been nicer had she said that, in view of all this, and especially in view of the fact that many of these aspirations will either not be achieved, or, at best, will be seriously diluted, I've concluded that the brexit game simply isn't worth the candle and that this county's best interests would be served by staying where we are and fighting for root and branch reform of the EU. Indeed, we could make that our condition for remaining. After all, it's crystal clear that that is what the EU wants us to do, remain a member. I shall be calling all the party leaders to an urgent meeting in Downing Street to put this to them and to form a temporary and informal coalition designed to achieve that goal.


Wishful thinking? I wouldn't bet on it.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Mar 18 - 08:14 AM

From the iPlayer description of "Soft Border Patrol":

Comedy mockumentary following the independent cross-border body as they deal with bodies crossing the border, be they human, animal or fish.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Mar 18 - 08:27 AM

Comedy?
Mockumentary?
Who would have known?

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Mar 18 - 08:40 AM

"A brand new comedy set on that stretch of land where the EU meets the UK. Shadowing the Soft Border Patrol, the fictional border agency backed by governments in London, Dublin, Belfast and Brussels, this hilarious mockumentary monitors those who monitor those who are caught between a rock and a soft place. Does a plank across a stream constitute an illegal border crossing? Is chorizo still legal in Northern Ireland? Thankfully the SBP are here to provide information and clarification."

Obviously beyond the wit of our feeble-minded BrexShitter to recognise a piss-take when he sees it!

Bwwwaaaaaaaahahahahaaaaa! ??????????

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Mar 18 - 09:26 AM

"Soft Border Patrol":
Still laughing at the idea of "Free State fish" swimming up Irish rivers
A real 'in-depth, information packed' documentary
Can't wait for the be-sashed salmon singing "the scales my father wore"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 04 Mar 18 - 10:59 AM

" this county's best interests would be served by staying where we are and fighting for root and branch reform of the EU. Indeed, we could make that our condition for remaining."

If that ideal could be made a reality, I suspect a clear majority would support it. But I cannot see the EU making the commitment.

My view of the future is that the drive towards centralism, driven by a blinkered bureaucracy, will finally self destruct the entire edifice.

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Mar 18 - 12:30 PM

Steve, thought I was on to a winner. Local Spar shop. Nero d'Avolo, 3.99 a bottle of 3 for a tenner. Not a patch on Mossers. Glad I only bought 1. Slightly musty Ribena is the nearest I can describe it as. I'm sure by the 3rd it will taste better.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Mar 18 - 12:36 PM

BWM,
Obviously beyond the wit of our feeble-minded BrexShitter to recognise a piss-take when he sees it!

Obviously beyond yours!

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Mar 18 - 12:39 PM

Easy mistake to make Keith. You are not known for your sense of humour. Lots of other things, yes. Humour, no.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Mar 18 - 01:38 PM

He's a bag of wind and piss, Dave. And feeble-minded.