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BS: No One Is Above the Law?

Joe Offer 02 Oct 17 - 12:46 AM
Backwoodsman 02 Oct 17 - 01:57 AM
DMcG 02 Oct 17 - 02:58 AM
DMcG 02 Oct 17 - 02:58 AM
DMcG 02 Oct 17 - 03:22 AM
Iains 02 Oct 17 - 03:29 AM
akenaton 02 Oct 17 - 03:49 AM
Iains 02 Oct 17 - 04:24 AM
Nigel Parsons 02 Oct 17 - 04:47 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Oct 17 - 08:24 AM
Mrrzy 02 Oct 17 - 08:46 AM
Iains 02 Oct 17 - 08:59 AM
akenaton 02 Oct 17 - 09:02 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Oct 17 - 09:38 AM
Iains 02 Oct 17 - 09:48 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Oct 17 - 10:10 AM
akenaton 02 Oct 17 - 11:40 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Oct 17 - 12:41 PM
Iains 02 Oct 17 - 01:42 PM
akenaton 02 Oct 17 - 04:28 PM
Steve Shaw 02 Oct 17 - 05:13 PM
Iains 02 Oct 17 - 05:46 PM
Steve Shaw 02 Oct 17 - 06:06 PM
Joe Offer 02 Oct 17 - 06:13 PM
Steve Shaw 02 Oct 17 - 06:23 PM
Iains 02 Oct 17 - 07:09 PM
akenaton 03 Oct 17 - 03:06 AM
akenaton 03 Oct 17 - 03:17 AM
Teribus 03 Oct 17 - 03:19 AM
Iains 03 Oct 17 - 03:31 AM
Nigel Parsons 03 Oct 17 - 03:47 AM
David Carter (UK) 03 Oct 17 - 03:58 AM
Kampervan 03 Oct 17 - 04:01 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Oct 17 - 04:17 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Oct 17 - 04:24 AM
Iains 03 Oct 17 - 04:53 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Oct 17 - 07:00 AM
Iains 03 Oct 17 - 08:40 AM
akenaton 03 Oct 17 - 08:52 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Oct 17 - 09:00 AM
Backwoodsman 03 Oct 17 - 10:29 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Oct 17 - 11:21 AM
Backwoodsman 03 Oct 17 - 12:23 PM
akenaton 03 Oct 17 - 02:20 PM
Steve Shaw 03 Oct 17 - 04:41 PM
akenaton 04 Oct 17 - 03:09 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Oct 17 - 04:42 AM
Backwoodsman 04 Oct 17 - 04:55 AM
Joe Offer 04 Oct 17 - 05:08 AM
Iains 04 Oct 17 - 05:08 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Oct 17 - 06:17 AM
akenaton 04 Oct 17 - 06:26 AM
Steve Shaw 04 Oct 17 - 06:29 AM
akenaton 04 Oct 17 - 06:48 AM
Steve Shaw 04 Oct 17 - 06:49 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Oct 17 - 08:10 AM
bobad 04 Oct 17 - 08:15 AM
Jon Freeman 04 Oct 17 - 09:43 AM
Backwoodsman 04 Oct 17 - 01:08 PM
Backwoodsman 04 Oct 17 - 05:07 PM
akenaton 05 Oct 17 - 06:46 PM
Joe Offer 05 Oct 17 - 08:03 PM
Steve Shaw 05 Oct 17 - 08:27 PM
akenaton 06 Oct 17 - 03:42 AM
Backwoodsman 06 Oct 17 - 03:51 AM
Backwoodsman 06 Oct 17 - 04:33 AM
akenaton 06 Oct 17 - 04:54 AM
Backwoodsman 06 Oct 17 - 05:02 AM
akenaton 06 Oct 17 - 12:26 PM
Backwoodsman 06 Oct 17 - 01:41 PM
Teribus 06 Oct 17 - 02:27 PM
Steve Shaw 06 Oct 17 - 03:27 PM
Teribus 06 Oct 17 - 03:58 PM
Steve Shaw 06 Oct 17 - 04:44 PM
BobL 07 Oct 17 - 02:48 AM
Teribus 07 Oct 17 - 04:16 AM
Iains 07 Oct 17 - 04:26 AM
DMcG 07 Oct 17 - 04:44 AM
Raggytash 07 Oct 17 - 05:30 AM
Iains 07 Oct 17 - 11:50 AM
Big Al Whittle 07 Oct 17 - 12:13 PM
Iains 25 Sep 18 - 08:18 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Sep 18 - 08:49 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Sep 18 - 09:00 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Sep 18 - 09:05 AM
Iains 25 Sep 18 - 09:49 AM
Dave the Gnome 25 Sep 18 - 10:06 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Sep 18 - 10:54 AM
Iains 25 Sep 18 - 11:20 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Sep 18 - 11:25 AM
Iains 25 Sep 18 - 11:35 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Sep 18 - 01:29 PM
Donuel 25 Sep 18 - 02:16 PM
olddude 25 Sep 18 - 04:38 PM
Joe Offer 25 Sep 18 - 04:50 PM
Thompson 26 Sep 18 - 09:44 AM
Iains 26 Sep 18 - 10:16 AM
Dave the Gnome 26 Sep 18 - 10:16 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Sep 18 - 10:40 AM
Donuel 26 Sep 18 - 11:38 AM
Iains 26 Sep 18 - 01:13 PM
Jim Carroll 26 Sep 18 - 01:46 PM
Iains 26 Sep 18 - 02:14 PM
Jim Carroll 26 Sep 18 - 03:06 PM
Iains 26 Sep 18 - 03:16 PM
Thompson 26 Sep 18 - 06:31 PM
Jim Carroll 26 Sep 18 - 07:30 PM
Jim Carroll 26 Sep 18 - 07:40 PM
Iains 27 Sep 18 - 02:56 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Sep 18 - 03:59 AM
Iains 27 Sep 18 - 04:13 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Sep 18 - 05:34 AM
Iains 27 Sep 18 - 05:40 AM
Thompson 27 Sep 18 - 05:53 AM
KarenH 27 Sep 18 - 06:16 AM
KarenH 27 Sep 18 - 06:20 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Sep 18 - 08:33 AM
Thompson 27 Sep 18 - 12:07 PM
Jim Carroll 27 Sep 18 - 12:36 PM
Jim Carroll 27 Sep 18 - 12:58 PM
Iains 27 Sep 18 - 01:47 PM
Jim Carroll 27 Sep 18 - 03:34 PM
Jim Carroll 27 Sep 18 - 03:45 PM
Donuel 27 Sep 18 - 05:25 PM
Charmion 28 Sep 18 - 10:07 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Sep 18 - 01:37 PM
Thompson 29 Sep 18 - 06:49 PM
Jim Carroll 29 Sep 18 - 06:56 PM
Jim Carroll 30 Sep 18 - 03:05 AM

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Subject: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 12:46 AM

The recent Clerical abuse of children thread drifted off topic, and was closed - but it brougnt up song interesting topics. Iains, talking about travellers defying legal restrictions against placement of caravans in certain locations, used the adage "nobody is above the law." It's my belief that the adage applies mostly to the powerful, not to the powerless who are unable enact laws - but I have to admit that the adage is usually considered to be a universal principle that applies to all.

But I don't like how the adage is used. In recent years in the U.S., people have used the adage against immigrants and against homeless people. Public opinion is against both immigrants and the homeless, so governmental bodies have enacted laws to control the outcasts of society. And then people say very nicely, I sympathize with them and they should be allowed to do so-and-so, but they should follow the law to do what they need to do.

At this, my alarm bells ring. Wait! There's something about this that reeks of basic injustice, no matter how righteous it sounds. My ancestors all immigrated to the U.S. before the first comprehensive immigration laws were passed in 1925. I think those laws were heavily influences by the eugenics movement and other bigotry, and did their best to preserve the white, northern European character of the American race. The doors were open to northern Europeans (unless they were Slavic), and immigration by Africans, Southern Europeans, Asians, and Latin Americans was severely restricted. The laws were meant to prevent "the browning of America," which is a term is absolutely hate. The immigration laws were written in very pleasant language, but they were viciously racist.

And now we have Americans who consider these immigration laws to be sacred, and they think it's immoral that immigrants would have the gall to break the law to escape violence and poverty to move to a land of relative safety. They're very nice about it, but they believe that immigrants must follow the law when they immigrate - even though the law is racist and unjust.

And these very nice people always bring up the adage, "Nobody is above the law." As I said above, I think the adage was meant to apply to those in power, but it has been twisted so that it serves to oppress the oppressed.

I think this adage is generally considered to be a basic principle of democracy. Where does this adage come from, and what is its intent?

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 01:57 AM

I always feel that the adage, as quoted, is missing a vital element which was inherent at the point at which it was coined - that element consisting of words along the lines of, "No matter how elevated their position in society may be".

I don't believe it was intended as a warning to the lowly to behave themselves, rather the opposite - a warning to the rich and powerful that even they are subject to the law, and not to fool themselves that they can do as they like by virtue of their wealth and power.

That's how my parents explained it to me, and how I've always understood it.


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 02:58 AM

I agree with that, but remember the phrase is about being ABOVE the law, rather than, for example, beyond. To me, that is clearly implying that it is saying status does not excuse you.

A noble sentiment, but I am afraid one with little relationship to reality. Anything punishable just by a fine, for example, is life threatening to the poor but virtually irrelevant to the super-rich. Similarly, money has always been able to engage lawyers to minimise the risk in a way the poor cannot. Making the law apply equally to all is incedibly difficult.


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 02:58 AM

I agree with that, but remember the phrase is about being ABOVE the law, rather than, for example, beyond. To me, that is clearly implying that it is saying status does not excuse you.

A noble sentiment, but I am afraid one with little relationship to reality. Anything punishable just by a fine, for example, is life threatening to the poor but virtually irrelevant to the super-rich. Similarly, money has always been able to engage lawyers to minimise the risk in a way the poor cannot. Making the law apply equally to all is incedibly difficult.


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 03:22 AM

This phone is horrible for double entries, making phone calls I dont want, sending emoji to people at random. A different make will be chosen next time, methinks.

Apologies for the duplication.


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: Iains
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 03:29 AM

Joe. The statement raises many issues and can be discussed on many levels.
1)The Catalan Referendum was banned by the Spanish government. It is also a human right to seek freedom. (From the preamble of the American Constitution: Second, to "secure the blessings of liberty", which were to be enjoyed by not only the first generation, but for all who came after, "our posterity)
It can be legitimately asked what is the superior law in this instance?
I use the preamble merely as an example because open societies aspire to the same ideal.

2)Another example is travellers. The vast majority now live in houses/flats/apartments and a small minority still travel. This small sector is a living anachronism like bodgers and coopers. If the vast majority of the population have to abide by a codified set of laws in order for society to function, why should a small group have the arrogance to suppose they can ignore whatever part of the legal code suits and create misery for thousands, besides costing the ratepayer vast sums? I do not have to give examples, the newspapers are full of them. They continue to try to live the life that has gone the way of the dodo. There is no place for it in the modern world-the same as armies no longer use bows and arrows.

3)Another example is International Corporations employing weasels as accountants and lawyer, and armies of lobbyists and distributors of largesse, in order to bend the law to their own ends.

4)Multi millionaires can also fund means of exempting themselves from the financial controls that ordinary people are constrained with.

There are no easy answers and it seems no one size fits all.


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 03:49 AM

I think what Joe is saying is that "the poor" should be allowed to disregard the law, because they have been failed by society.

Well that way lies chaos......Society must be altered or allowed to evolve into something better, but always within the law.


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: Iains
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 04:24 AM

Ake. Admirably demonstrated on the other thread by the attempted anarchy by striking miners.

This concept of being above the law extends to countries also.
The US in Syria has no legal justification whatsoever, as is true of Israeli incursions and activity by the coalition on sovereign Syrian soil.
The activities concerning the search of Russian Embassy properties in the US also represents flagrant breaches of international protocols.
There are also other wars that have been fought without UN mandate.
Are those responsible above the law?


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 04:47 AM

Even being 'stoned' does not excuse illegal action. To quote Snoopy "Nobody is so high that the law is not above him".

Actually, Snoopy may have been quoting Abe Lincoln.


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 08:24 AM

Iains self imposed and intolerant ignorance of the Travellers real situation is the most astounding piece of racist viciousness I have come across and highly dangerous if it were widely shared (did you say you were a Christian – I can't remember and am unable to work it out?
That Traveller lifestyle I not chosen – it is what they weer born to – life in houses to them is as alien as life on the road would be to us if it was forced on us – they were once an essential part of British life, modernisation has left them behind
Describing their life as obsolete, as you do is inhuman and obscene – the stuff holocausts have been made of.
This is probably the most blatantly inhuman indifferent display of ignorance of the plight of an entire community in trouble I have ever encountered and it relates perfectly to whether laws should (or even can) be obeyed
In the early 1960s MacColl and the Radio ballads team interviewed Traveller after Traveller explaining their plight regarding being able to stop, one man described it perfectly "they won't let us stop and they won't let us move – we have nowhere to go – where are we supposed to go"
MacColl summed it up in one of his most bitter songs:

"The hard eyed men who guard the road, they bid us choose our way;
And yet they will not let us go nor will they let is stay"

That remains the case with Travellers fifty odd years later, if anything, it's got worse.
The Radio Ballad 'The Travelling People' and other sympathetic campaigns of behalf of the Travellers brought about changes and introduced compulsory provision of sites for a woefully inadequate number of Travellers – those laws were repealed by the John Major Government, creating a situation worse than it had been fifty years earlier – no sites, no protection under the law.
The Travellers that have managed to find settled accommodation, less than a tenth of the population, are housed in walled ghettos totally unsuitable to house the size of familles they are meant for – they are not even consulted regarding their needs, they have no choice in the matter, so their lives are planned by people who share Iains ignorance and antipathy
Rather stupidly, they are built on contract by firms who immediately inflate their process when they realise what the accommodation is to be used for, paid for by taxpayers money
The overwhelming majority of Travellers do not wish to settle – that is no more their lifestyle as ours would be if we house dwellers were suddenly forced on the road - their life and work depends on their being able to move
Ironically, a basic site to house several families of the types in Bristol or Swindon, costs a tiny fraction of one of these ghettoes housing one family.
Travellers move into houses because they are forced to, not out of choice – a few women accept the idea, the rest usually develop mental-stress and social problems through being forced out of their natural life-style.
They cannot afford to buy housing, are usually refused the right to rent, if they are housed in council property, they are met with hostility and often actual violence.
A simple question Iains, if this is the situation (if it isn't please show it isn't), what else can they do but break the law, short of putting an end to their own lives and those of their families – the suiide ratee among a group that has no significant record of such has increased alarmingly – six times greater than that of the settled population
Ake gives us the old usual pro-establishment garbage
British society has now reached a crossroads; the continuing rise in the gap between haves and have nothings has brought us to the point what the present situation will have to be maintained by force or it will have to be consciously changed to encompass the needs of all
Laws are made by the have-everything's of this world – they are not going to allow society to develop and undermine their position – evolution is not even a runner in this race
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 08:46 AM

I thought it was about Nixon.


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: Iains
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 08:59 AM

Carroll I made my position on lawbreaking perfectly clear. If you wish to continue supporting criminals parked up illegally, while composing odes to toxic tips, that is your affair. Also I was born with no clothes and knew jack shit. Hopefully I cured the latter two failings.


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 09:02 AM

The "Travellers" of today have absolutely nothing in common with the old Tinker families I remember from my boyhood.
Many a night they sat in front of our old range and told their stories. We were as poor as they were, but they had chosen their lifestyle and would have cut off their hands, before they would steal or harm "their own kind" who happened to live in a house!


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 09:38 AM

"The "Travellers" of today have absolutely nothing in common with the old Tinker families I remember from my boyhood."
Romantic shite that belongs between the pages of George Borrow
"Carroll I made my position on lawbreaking perfectly clear."
Just as you have made clear your lack of humanity
I asked what should be done about Travellers in teh present situation - your refuse to reply, which makes you what you are
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: Iains
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 09:48 AM

Carroll I think our conversation is finished.You prattle on like a rusty old tin can that some fool keeps kicking down the road.


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 10:10 AM

"I think our conversation is finished"
Never had a doubt it would be
You fit Billy Connolly's description of a policeman perfectly – "if you want to frighten him, ask him a question"
You people will not accept the consequences of your bigoted hatred – in this case, ethnic cleansing
Ake, supposing your quaint description of what real Travellers are, were true – what do YOU propose should happen to those who don't fit your rosy image - this perhaps?

From the note to 'Winds of Change' in the MacColl songbook
While collecting information for the above Radio-Ballad, producer Charles Parker interviewed Alderman Harry Watton, J.P., of Birmingham:
Watton: How far does it come in your mind before you say: 'I have done everything I possibly can ... and I will help the broad mass of these people, but there are some I can do nothing with whatsoever.'
Then doesn't the time arise in one's mind when one has to say: 'All right, one has to exterminate the impossibles ...'
Parker:        Exterminate - that's a terrible word. Surely you don't ... mean that ...?
Watton: Why not?   
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 11:40 AM

Jim, I remember clearly what the real tinkers were like, they were part and parcel of our community, they just preferred another way of life.......many envied them.

Today, so called travellers use their "special status" to flout the law and often to carry out serious criminal activities.


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 12:41 PM

I don't give a shit what you remember from your limited experience - I recorded them for thirty years and took down exactly what life was like in the frist pert of the twentieth century throughout Britain and Ireland
I asked you what you would do with those who don't conform to your stereotype middle-class image (part of Travelling People rdio Ballad recorded from locals just like you)
You decline to answer
Yours and Iain's silence is answer enough - you agree with the Harry Watton 'Final Solution' - I never doubted it for a minute
Your description of "special status" which includes being forvced to live on sites without running wwater and sanitation, (the tiny minority who are luckyy enough to find somewhere to stop) is a racist echo of how the Nazis described the Jews.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/discriminating-against-gypsies-and-travellers-is-common-across-britain-report-finds-a6919651.html
"SPECIAL STATUS"

Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: Iains
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 01:42 PM

Jim you are now getting very very boring!


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 04:28 PM

Those who do not conform to the law of our country should face the same penalties as non travellers.
Thieving, drug selling, extortion with menace, littering and anti social behaviour, are all crimes which are carried out by travellers and non travellers alike, both groups should be dealt with forcefully, but unfortunately travellers use their "Special Status" to avoid punishment.......a situation created by "liberals" and politically correct idiots.


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 05:13 PM

Rubbish. There is no special status that allows people to break the law and get away with it more than anyone else. There is potentially the privilege that you may not be as tightly investigated in a timely manner, but that applies far more to the likes of politicians fiddling their expenses and to the likes of Jimmy Savile, and, unfortunately, to bent coppers of the likes of those in charge at Hillsborough or those at Orgreave. Not to travelling people. Stop making things up.


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: Iains
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 05:46 PM

" There is no special status that allows people to break the law and get away with it more than anyone else."
Perhaps true! They are more inclined to bend the law or simply rewrite it. More than a few BBC employees came unglued when they suddenly got taken on the books after HMRC launched a probe into whether stars had incorrectly declared themselves to be self-employed. Multinationals are being probed for european tax avoidance, but the EU is planning a turnover tax to scupper their devious shenanigins. The panama papers have shed light on the dodgy financial dealings of the elite. The special status they have is oodles of boodle to grease their slippery way ahead.


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 06:06 PM

The law applies to everyone equally. What does not apply equally to everybody is access to the very best, most expensive legal advice. What does not apply equally to everybody is the obsequious and indulgent way we behave towards people of the establishment, whether they be churchmen, politicians or telly celebrities. But that doesn't put them above the law. It does put them more above scrutiny than the rest of us.


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 06:13 PM

Ake says: Those who do not conform to the law of our country should face the same penalties as non travellers.

That's the same argument that many in the U.S. use against immigrants and homeless people. They pass packages of laws intended to make life impossible for the homeless and immigrants, and then they say how horrible it is that the homeless and immigrants fail to obey the law.

Some laws are unjust, no matter how self-righteous the lawgivers may be.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 06:23 PM

Well said, Joe. The law can be an ass. It isn't that easy to laugh at every ass, unfortunately.


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: Iains
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 07:09 PM

It is a very valid point that lack of access to adequate legal advice
creates miscarriages of Justice.The Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders (Laspo) Act, which came into effect in 2013(UK) has severely restricted funding.The year before the act nearly one million
cases were granted legal aid, the year after number dropped 50%. The more that is paid for both legal and financial advice, then the safer it is too sail close to the wind even though there be dragons and reefs.


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Oct 17 - 03:06 AM

"The law applies to everyone equally. What does not apply equally to everybody is access to the very best, most expensive legal advice."

Well, Well, welcome to the real world at last Steve. So at last you admit that "equality" in this form of society is a myth.
Money rules everything, every facet, even the law, but unless you want to see social chaos we make the best of it.

Do you really think granting EVERYONE access to the best, most expensive legal representation, the best most expensive education, the best most expensive health care is possible?


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Oct 17 - 03:17 AM

"Some laws are unjust, no matter how self-righteous the lawgivers may be."
Well regarding the drug dealing and money lending that is the economy in many areas of the UK and I suppose America, I also suppose it is the only economy which exists in these areas, but is the law an ass to prosecute people who are working in that economy?
People break the law to make money. If that money is to ensure their wellbeing, should we allow it?

I repeat that way lies chaos.


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Oct 17 - 03:19 AM

I think people are of the mistaken belief that the "law" and "justice" are the same - they are not, never have been.


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: Iains
Date: 03 Oct 17 - 03:31 AM

The application of the law is tweaked by expensive lawyers. Justice is the fickle finger of fate guided by the depth of wallet and the argument purchased.

This is not the justice as defined in a dictionary, but the justice encountered in real life.


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 03 Oct 17 - 03:47 AM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 06:06 PM
The law applies to everyone equally. What does not apply equally to everybody is access to the very best, most expensive legal advice. What does not apply equally to everybody is the obsequious and indulgent way we behave towards people of the establishment, whether they be churchmen, politicians or telly celebrities.


That, unfortunately, works both ways.
Would so much police time & money have been spent investigating Jimmy Savile, Edward Heath & Cliff Richard if they had not been celebrities/politicians? Especially as two of them are not here to face any possibility of prosecution, or of defending themselves.


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 03 Oct 17 - 03:58 AM

Savile would have been sprung years before if he had not been a celebrity and had powerful people watching his back. Not sure about the others, its not clear that they have done anything.


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: Kampervan
Date: 03 Oct 17 - 04:01 AM

The 'LAW' is a set of rules by which society should agree to live. Unfortunately those rules are frequently made by people with a very personal agenda and thus, frequently,there are 'bad' laws which must be changed.


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Oct 17 - 04:17 AM

"Jim you are now getting very very boring!"
Then why not say something worthwhile yourself rather than constantly throwing about childish insults - failing that, why not just piss off and leave the adults to it?
"People break the law to make money."
To confine lawbreaking in this discussion is a display of contempt both for what people have written and to those who break the law out of necessity due to shortfalls in our system - Travellers being a case ion point
Travellers have nowhere to stop so they break the law rather than burn their home and go join the growing number sleeping in shop doorways
Should we allow it - of course we ****** should, what else should we do - gas them?
She most costly and widely practiced crime in Britain today is corporate corruption and tax evasion, not tax fiddles but massive frauds and schemes not tp pay what is due from all of us
That goes virtually unpunished and largely ignored - it's even built into our system that multi-millionaire firms like Google and Starbucks pay no tax.
Reducing criminality to stealing and drugs and targeting those who steal to feed their families is contemptible when you choose to ignore the real criminals of our society - those who rum it and make the laws
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Oct 17 - 04:24 AM

"Jimmy Savile,"
Savile's cries were known about long before he was prosecuted - those who knew about it not only covered up for him but they facilitated his crimes by continuing to allow him access to his victims - another case of double-standards between haves and have nots
Had he not been wealthy Saville would never have been to commit the crimes he did an, if found raping, he would never have nbeen able to buy his way out.
"Pity the poor millionaire" really does not work, certainly now with scul like Savile, whose crimes are unquestionable no matter how dead he is
JIm Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: Iains
Date: 03 Oct 17 - 04:53 AM

"Jim you are now getting very very boring!"
It is very straightforward Jim. No one will deny you are passionate in your arguments, but not everyone agrees with your point of view, or your interpretations.If you continue to belabour and inflame with your offerings inevitably the thread gets closed. That just leaves the discussion hanging and satisfies no one. (you are by no means the only guilty one)


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Oct 17 - 07:00 AM

"but not everyone agrees with your point of view,"
Of course they dont - these forums would be a waste of space if everybody adreed
I expect intelligent, adult argument, not your mindless insulting or Teribus's strutting display-bullying - that's simple good manners and a sign of haveing been up decently
I have never closed a thread - you and your threads have closed several recently
Nor have I ever been reprimanded or warned
Don't make up "Carroll shit" thoug it has become a defence of some brain-deads when they run out of arguments
If you want to debate - do so with respect for those you debate with
If toy want to hurl insults, go find a schoolyard or arm yourself with a tin of graffiti paint and a brush
Simples
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: Iains
Date: 03 Oct 17 - 08:40 AM

Getting back to Joe's original post, he asked where the adage came from and, what is its intent?

Article 7 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights states that "All are equal before the law and are entitled without any discrimination to equal protection of the law." It was adopted by the United Nations General Assembly at its 3rd session on 10 December 1948 as Resolution 217 at the Palais de Chaillot in Paris, France.

Sure looks good on paper, but I think we can all see that the last part of the declaration is largely wishful thinking.
It is also quite obvious that a large body of law exists where men are discriminated against under the law on the basis of race, colour and sexual orientation.


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Oct 17 - 08:52 AM

At the moment, under the law, Heterosexuals are discriminated against under the law as opposed to homosexuals.
Homosexuals can be "married", single, or in a civil union.
Heterosexuals can only be married or single.


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Oct 17 - 09:00 AM

For christ's sake Ake - leave your hatred in the shithole it merits
Within my lifetime the natural act of homosexuality was being dealt with by chemical castration - that includes one of our great war heroes - Alan Turin
Give us a rest from your obsessive bigotry - which, hopefully will be as illegal as openly expressed racism before too long
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Oct 17 - 10:29 AM

Oh dear, and it was all going so well.


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Oct 17 - 11:21 AM

I could say the same Baccy
You may be happy to continue letting ake use this as a hate platform.....
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Oct 17 - 12:23 PM

No, Jim. It was him I was referring to. Just ignore the stupid, homophobic fucker.


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Oct 17 - 02:20 PM

Nothing homophobic about it, I was simply illustrating how unfair the law can be.......of course you idiots never see anything but what you want to see.


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Oct 17 - 04:41 PM

So, akenaton, are you saying that homosexuals are above the law, or, alternatively, that they simply abide by it?


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 03:09 AM

My post was a direct response to Joe's OP....They (homosexuals) abide by the law, and we(heterosexuals) have to abide by the discrimination, as it is highly unlikely to be changed.....for reasons of convenience in taxation, benefits etc.


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 04:42 AM

"No, Jim. It was him I was referring to. Just ignore the stupid, homophobic fucker."
Sorry Baccy - posted this yesterday but it didn't go off
My apologies, I was in knee-jerk mood and shouldn't have been so quick off the mark
It didn't stop his *****bashing rant though, did it - still in there, kicking with both feet
They used to travel in packs
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 04:55 AM

😄😄


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 05:08 AM

Ake sez:
    At the moment, under the law, Heterosexuals are discriminated against under the law as opposed to homosexuals.
    Homosexuals can be "married", single, or in a civil union.
    Heterosexuals can only be married or single.


Not so, Ake. You, too, can have a civil union with a man. Go for it.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: Iains
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 05:08 AM

Further to my post of 03 Oct 17 - 08:40 AM I think it needs a little amplification. Islamic law varies in it's interpretation of "LGBT issues" in different Islamic countries. Also the sanctions have become more severe in recent times. Rightly, wrongly, Despite a universal declaration of human rights enshrined in some of the earliest activities of the UN, that is the reality.

(But the UN is an organisation that elected Saudi onto both the Human Rights Council and the UN Women's Panel- so there you go! )

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_in_Islam


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 06:17 AM

"(But the UN is an organisation that elected Saudi onto both the Human Rights Council and the UN Women's Panel- so there you go! )"
And the Saudi regime is Britain's best customer for its sale of weapons - there you go indeed
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 06:26 AM

Sorry Joe but you are wrong, unless you were being facetious?

"Currently, heterosexual couples are not allowed to enter into a civil partnership and can only enter into marriage.

They are only available to couples who are of the same sex.

Heterosexual couple Rebecca Steinfeld and Charles Keidan had taken their case to be allowed to enter a civil partnership to the High Court.

The couple said they objected to the "patriarchal baggage" of marriage and sought to secure legal recognition of their six-year relationship through a civil partnership.

The academics, who live in Hammersmith, west London, and have a daughter, argued that the Government's position is "incompatible with equality law" .

Their legal team argued the bar on heterosexual couples entering a civil partnership was in defiance of the European Convention of Human Rights.

But their case was overruled when the judges said there was a potential human rights breach but the government should have more time to decide on the future of civil partnerships.

Now they intend to appeal to the Supreme Court"


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 06:29 AM

Apropos of this thread, who can or can't have a civil partnership is totally irrelevant. Gay people entering civil partnerships in countries that allow them are abiding by the law, not acting above it.   Bringing this into this thread is mischievous and vexatious.


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 06:48 AM

The reason for the refusal of course, is the bureaucratic nightmare which would ensue....marriage is usually encouraged by the authorities as an easy means of record keeping and stabilisation of society.......family structure.

Homosexuals were only granted both, because they are a small minority with huge media and political leverage.
Their definition of "marriage" or Union, often differs dramatically from traditional marriage.

Devious and mischievous?........didn't you mean inconvenient Steve?


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 06:49 AM

I didn't use the word devious, inconveniently.


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 08:10 AM

Please stop giving this deranged madman the attention he is seeking
Homophobic rants aside, back to the subject
Being above the law has been brought into sharp focus by the announcement that the Irish Government has been ordered by the EU to pursue Apple for the £12 million in unpaid taxes it is due.
Elsewhere Google owes £220 million in unpaid taxes to its credit (sic)
One law for the very poor - another for the extremely rich, it would seem
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: bobad
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 08:15 AM

Meanwhile the US, along with those other paragons of democracy and human rights such as such as Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Qatar, the United Arab Emirates, Bangladesh, and China, votes against U.N. ban on death penalty for homosexuality.


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 09:43 AM

Ake sez:

    At the moment, under the law, Heterosexuals are discriminated against under the law as opposed to homosexuals.
    Homosexuals can be "married", single, or in a civil union.
    Heterosexuals can only be married or single.



Not so, Ake. You, too, can have a civil union with a man. Go for it.


Or go to Isle of Man, Joe

I'm not sure it's relevant that some, including me, have more traditional views over marriage. It seems that some hetrosexual couple themselves would make this choice and view it as progressive.


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 01:08 PM

Could someone please explain the difference between a Civil Partnership and a marriage conducted by a Registrar - known as a 'Civil Marriage'?


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 05:07 PM

I'll take that as a "No" then...


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 06:46 PM

Quite simple, the clue is in the wordage.
One is a Marriage in the eyes of the law, the other is not.


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 08:03 PM

Here in California, both civil unions/partnerships and marriages are available to both heterosexual and homosexual couples. For the most part in California, the only difference is in the name. I understand they are supposed to be legally equivalent.
In different places, your results may vary.

For those wishing to split hairs, here is a handy guide: http://family.findlaw.com/domestic-partnerships/civil-unions-v-marriage.html

Ake, where are you going with this, that you haven't gone thirty-seven thousand times before? You're boring us.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 08:27 PM

Don’t bloody ask, Joe...


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Oct 17 - 03:42 AM

Backwoodsman asked a question, I provided the answer Joe and it all involves the law.


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Oct 17 - 03:51 AM

So, does anyone know what the difference is between a Civil Marriage and a Civil Partnership?


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Oct 17 - 04:33 AM

Here you go...

Great thing, Google.


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Oct 17 - 04:54 AM

You are confusing Civil Marriage with Civil Union(partnership)
(Stupid)! :0)


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Oct 17 - 05:02 AM

I asked about the difference between a civil marriage and a civil partnership, that's what the article linked to covers.

Stupid is as stupid does.


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Oct 17 - 12:26 PM

I had already explained the difference to you.

I'm not bitter......for someone whom you regard as a "stupid homophobic fucker"?


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Oct 17 - 01:41 PM

I prefer to take the advice of a legal practitioner, rather than rely on the opinion (incorrect, as it happens - I didn't confuse anything) of someone I regard as a stupid homophobe.

Now, conversation terminated. On yer bike.


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Oct 17 - 02:27 PM

Let's hope that this F**ker (literally) isn't


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Oct 17 - 03:27 PM

I had a feeling that's where you get your info. By the way, can you tell us whether there was any point in posting it?


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Oct 17 - 03:58 PM

Good heavens Shaw you once told us that you read it everyday on-line, Jom swears by it when digging the dirt on dear old blighty, you've quoted it yourself on occasion.

Now I can see a point being demonstrated in me providing the link that is relevant to the thread topic. However, I can see nothing in your post that contributes anything to the discussion, c'mon teacher tell us about the tea cakes you had today, that is harmless and banal enough.


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Oct 17 - 04:44 PM

I have never in my natural declared that I read the Mail online every day. What I have told you is that I occasionally pick up a free copy of the rag with my Waitrose card. I feel I’m doing my public duty by depriving at least one poor sod of casting their eyes on it. I could pick up a free Guardian but I take that already. Or a Times, basically the Mail sans balls. One does have to know thine enemy, tha knows. You should abide more by bobad’s description of you, a very elderly man (ok, I embellished it a bit) who states only facts. You last post is somewhat deficient in that department. You’re letting your side down, old man Bill.


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: BobL
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 02:48 AM

The Mail at least has some decent cartoons and a crossword that is neither too trivial nor too taxing. The editorial pages, being large and unstapled, are excellent for wrapping (other) rubbish.


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 04:16 AM

Only trouble is Shaw, you've never been able to challenge the facts or details that I have supplied, you've never been able to challenge or counter the reasoning and logic behind my arguments. But there again, unlike you, I am not shackled to any particular political ideology, I have never, ever, been a member of a political party so I am not as constrained in my thinking and questioning of any given situation that I chose to comment on. Your default setting is to label me right-wing and tory solely because I challenge you and your pals when you come out with idiotic statements (Your thinking seems to run along the lines of: I do not agree with you so I must automatically be of the opposite political persuasion - a simplistic and idiotic notion) - I challenge you and your pals because your statements ARE patently IDIOTIC in terms of reasoning and logic - nothing political about it at all.


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: Iains
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 04:26 AM

"Or a Times, basically the Mail sans balls" Seems to me that statement is an admission that the Mail produces hard hitting journalism with superior analysis compared to that of the Times.
Do you also avoid Russia Today and Al Jazeera because you do not like the colour of their ink? I presume you receive a gruniard as a part of your union dues.

News is news is news just like shit is shit is shit whether produced by
a gnat or an elephant. You really do have problems understanding the most simple concepts shaw.


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 04:44 AM

News is news is news ... the most simple concept(s)

I don't agree, Iains. At the absolute minimum, whether you are talking broadcasts, printed papers or even websites, there is a selection process that goes on, that decides whether a piece of news is 'newsworthy', where it ranks against other stories - front page or back page, running order and so on - so any reported news is partial, even if not deliberately so.

Add to that, there is always bias, intentional or not, in how the news item itself is presented, as in the possibly apocryphal "Fog in the channel - continent cut off".

Then all news vendors are aware they need to entertain, not just present news. The best example of this at the moment is the letter falling off of the display during Teresa May's speech. Amusing, yes. A good metaphor opportunity, yes. But news? Letter falls of board - news? I think not.

Whatever else is going on, there is nothing simple about news.


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: Raggytash
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 05:30 AM

"News is news is news"

Interesting, does that indicate that we could just rely on one source for our news, something like the Socialist Worker perhaps?


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: Iains
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 11:50 AM

I have said,on more than one occasion on this forum, that to rely on a single news source is not a very good idea. No news source is neutral, each has an agenda to follow that leads to some items being "overlooked" and others given spin. You have two choices- eat the food the meedjah offers or peruse multiple sources and make your own determination. To automatically discount a news source because of it's name is shortsighted to say the least. Why does the US want to demonize RT: Because it is a purveyor of false news or because it deviates from the western narrative? To get anywhere near the truth it is necessary to think and use the [power of analysis.
A classic example would be Isis through American and Russian eyes.
Which of the three is the great satan? Which ones are above International law? Which ones are Invaders? Who supports who? Who are the bully boys on the block?


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 12:13 PM

The rich can break the law almost at will in England - it seems to me.

Just watch the tv adverts. So many of them are really misleading, and downright dishonest.

If ordinary people lied and cheated in the way the finance industry does every night. They would be in jail.

THe MP's of every party say nothing about this abuse of trust, usury and crookedness.

I think its because they are rich themselves, and none of them care about poor people.


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: Iains
Date: 25 Sep 18 - 08:18 AM

The loony left are encouraging criminality!
Dawn Butler used the slogan made by Liverpool’s Labour council 30 years ago which set an illegal budget which resulted in redundancy notices for its workforce.


http://www.kilburntimes.co.uk/news/politics/brent-central-mp-attacks-government-cuts-at-labour-party-conference-in-liverpool-1-5709010


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Sep 18 - 08:49 AM

Mindless "loony left" rhetoric aside
More up to date
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/government-accused-of-waging-war-on-parliament-by-forcing-through-key-legal-changes-without-debate-a6820176.html


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Sep 18 - 09:00 AM

OR THIS ONGOING HABIT OF LAW-BREAKING

OR THIS

OR THIS

Making this a 'loonie leftie' issue is as mindless as it gets
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Sep 18 - 09:05 AM

TAX AVOIDANCE
those who make the laws are usually the ones who are out of reach of the laws
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: Iains
Date: 25 Sep 18 - 09:49 AM

A little clarity about the alleged overspending.
Your linked article is july 2018. The world has moved on.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-45519676
The electoral Commission is unfit for purpose.

Your other links are as antique and as relevant as the campaign diaries of Attila the Hun.


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Sep 18 - 10:06 AM

Joe, were your questions in the opening post ever answered and, if so, have you come to any conclusions or changed any views?


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Sep 18 - 10:54 AM

THIS MAKES SENSE TO ME
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: Iains
Date: 25 Sep 18 - 11:20 AM

THIS MAKES SENSE TO ME

Well I am glad it makes sense to someone.


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Sep 18 - 11:25 AM

It is obviously beyond your grasp - hence your failure to respond to it
Feel free to do so
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: Iains
Date: 25 Sep 18 - 11:35 AM

little jimmie I have to know what it is before I can respond. Did you check your link during your multiple postings, or is that something only the little people do?


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Sep 18 - 01:29 PM

I have no idea why the link didn't work but the fact it didn't is no reason for your patheruic attempts to talk down to people

FEEL FREE NOT TO RESPOND IF YOU ARE UNABLE TO DO SO IN AN ADULT MANNER
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Sep 18 - 02:16 PM

Bill Cosby is not above the law.
He was sentenced to 3 to 10 years in prison.


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: olddude
Date: 25 Sep 18 - 04:38 PM

Poor above the law no, laws that are specific to targeting the poor yes I believe we have lots more of them than for the wealthy for sure . And in criminal proceedings do the wealthiest get off..yes and if convicted do they go to special country club prison. More often than not. The poor, go away to some hell hold


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 Sep 18 - 04:50 PM

Dave the Gnome asks whether the questions I asked in the original post have been answered. No, they have not. I asked where the "Nobody is above the law" adage came from, and whether I am correct in thinking it is meant to apply primarily to those who make the laws, not so much on powerless people upon whom unjust laws are sometimes imposed. Here's an excerpt from my first post:
    And now we have Americans who consider these immigration laws to be sacred, and they think it's immoral that immigrants would have the gall to break the law to escape violence and poverty to move to a land of relative safety. They're very nice about it, but they believe that immigrants must follow the law when they immigrate - even though the law is racist and unjust.

    And these very nice people always bring up the adage, "Nobody is above the law." As I said above, I think the adage was meant to apply to those in power, but it has been twisted so that it serves to oppress the oppressed.

    I think this adage is generally considered to be a basic principle of democracy. Where does this adage come from, and what is its intent?


-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: Thompson
Date: 26 Sep 18 - 09:44 AM

People from the Moroccan navy fired on a boat full of refugees, killing one and injuring others, yesterday. There were arrests - of "people smugglers", not of killers.

Jim, what do you think happened to change the Travellers from how they were in your early days recording them to the Big Fat Gypsy Wedding types of today, and in some cases the millionaire crime lords trafficking rhino horns and the like?


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: Iains
Date: 26 Sep 18 - 10:16 AM

Joe the idea seem to have reached its final form in the early days ofthe US. or perhaps from Magna Carter. You would probably need a fleecing of lawyers to obtain a definitive response.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_of_law

https://nationalpost.com/opinion/carolyn-harris-magna-carta-established-that-nobody-not-even-the-king-was-above-the-law-of-the-l


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Sep 18 - 10:16 AM

FWIW, Joe, I think you are right about it applying more to people of power than those who are oppressed by unjust laws. Good article on Wiki about the rule of law which contains this passage in its introduction -

The rule of law implies that every person is subject to the law, including people who are lawmakers, law enforcement officials, and judges.[5] In this sense, it stands in contrast to an autocracy, dictatorship, or oligarchy where the rulers are held above the law.

That was always my understanding of it.

In addition, where there are blatantly unjust laws, such as racial segregation, it is our duty to call these out. Pointing out that it makes no sense to have white only drinking fountains or children separated from their parents by stupid immigration rules is not being above the law. It is trying to make the laws better.


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Sep 18 - 10:40 AM

"what do you think happened to change the Travellers from how they were in your early days recording them to the Big Fat Gypsy Wedding types of today,"
They became urbanised and took up the bad habits of the city
BFgw is not representative to Travellers - they certainly like big weddings (we've been to dozens) but they tend to be fairly traditional family gatherings
I usually throw away the 'Style' supplement in the Sunday Times without reading it, but when I do I see far more outlandish clothes in there - as for thosse Royal wetting-the babies-head hats and frocks !!
The Rhino horns Traders and the 'slave owners' represent a tiny criminal element as do the sex traders in settled society
Up to the time we stopped recording, the most common crime among travellers (according to a survey by the Met Police) was diving without tax and insurance
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Sep 18 - 11:38 AM

Joe your assumption is positively correct.

The intent of the law was originally devised to hold the powerful and educated to bear more responsibility under the law because the well to do simply know better than the unwashed public. It has to do with the reasonable man doctrine.


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: Iains
Date: 26 Sep 18 - 01:13 PM

But it is also a truism that ignorance of the law is no excuse so how do you square that circle?

You may argue Ignorantia Facti Excusat but not ignorantia legis neminem excusat


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Sep 18 - 01:46 PM

The most obscene example of the law opposing justice was at the time of the Grenfell Tower fire when landlords invoked the law to prevent survivors from being temporarily housed in vacant buildings while homes were found for them - a sort of Blitz spirit in reverse
I was quite proud to be a SUPPORTER OF THIS HERO at the time
I think Iains may remember this !!!

A disturbing development in Dublin's hosing crisis a few weeks ago was when landlord's bailiffs (ex Paras) sent in to remove squatters from vacant property were accompanied by unidentified police in unmarked vehicles and wearing balaclavas
The law can a jackal rather than an ass when it is used by the wealthy and privileged to protect their wealth and privilege
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: Iains
Date: 26 Sep 18 - 02:14 PM

Well we have been through this before. Requisitioning property has only been carried out in wartime in the UK. Any council trying it would be laughed out of court, very expensively. It might work in a socialist jackbooted society but not in the uk. Your socialist dreams are a thinking persons's nightmare. The EU would also eviscerate any council trying such a stunt. Your suggestion is totally nonsensical as you very well know. It would destroy property rights at a stroke. It ain't going to happen and the streets would be running with blood before it did.


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Sep 18 - 03:06 PM

Thanks for confirming that you put property above human life Iains, though it wan't necessary
I din't doubt it for a minute
I prefer the humanity of teh feeling people, though I like to think that if people thought about things like this they might take a humanitarian approach to it rather than that of a Conservative economist

I think you demonstrate the fact that, as things are the law serves the haves rather than the have nots

Yur last sentence reads just like Charlton Heston's "Cold, dead hands" spech to the NRA - or even Enoch's "Rivers of Blood"
I can see where you're coming from
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: Iains
Date: 26 Sep 18 - 03:16 PM

There is no fool like an old fool Jim. Keep spouting nonsense if it makes you feel better. Meanwhile back in the real world.....


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: Thompson
Date: 26 Sep 18 - 06:31 PM

Jim, what about the Travellers robbing and terrorising farmers? What would you do about them?


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Sep 18 - 07:30 PM

"im, what about the Travellers robbing and terrorising farmers?"
Hhat about the settled thugs breaking into people's homes,ot the muggers, or the rapists - what do you do about them
Why treat Traveller criminals any different tann settled criminals
Some of the worst crimes in society are committed by members of the indigenous settled community
I was brought up in one of the biggest 'problem' areas of Merseyside - do criminals suddenly become Scousers because that's heer they lived ?

Criminals are criminals Traveller criminals tend to commit different crimes than to settled criminals - bt they are equally both criminals
Murder islarhely a settled crime - it doesn't happen to much among Travellers
Pedophelia is overwhelmingly a 'setttled' crime, as is rape or organised prostitution or organised crime or mugging.....
We don't talk anout them i those terms
Why do we do so about Travellers?

By and large, travellers are 'criminals of want' - they don't steal to acquire (they are the least acquisitive people I have ever come across)
They steal to live from day to day
You can only discuss the flaws in Traveller Society when you level out the playing field

Tha vast majorty of Travellers in this country hav nowhere to stop legally, no running water, no sanitation, no electricity, no way of educating themselves or their children......
Try to work out how you would react to that situation
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Sep 18 - 07:40 PM

"Meanwhile back in the real world....."
You always retreat behind that barrier when you have no intelligent respomnse to what is being put up
he real world is that far from the streets running with blood, the vast majority of people in Britain are humanist-minded individuals who reach out to people in trouble on an individual basis
Who would set the "streets running with blood" /
The people you represent are in the main incapable o replacing a fuse or changing a tap washer, or replacing a roof tile.... or any of the things that keep us warm and clean and fed ... they need to "call in a little man to do that"
Far from defending their property - like all wars and social disturbances - they have to conscript somebody else to do it for them
People who value property above people are entirely dependent on the people they exploit and despise
They'd have a "little man" to wipe their arses for them if convention would allow it
Jim Carroll
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: Iains
Date: 27 Sep 18 - 02:56 AM

Jim there is no point in (Me)trying to argue with a fool (You)
Your arguments are crass dogma and make no sense.End of story!


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Sep 18 - 03:59 AM

No there most certainly isn't
Anybody who puts ownership of property above human life is way beyond my pay range - it is simple inhuman greed as far as I'm concerned
It is everything that is wrong with society today and is what will destroy it eventually
It explains every wrong in society, from the homeless sleeping on the streets to the dead refugee children dragged from the sea
You have no arguments or explanations to offer and that is argument enough for me
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: Iains
Date: 27 Sep 18 - 04:13 AM

I had an interesting conversation with a cabbage today!


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Sep 18 - 05:34 AM

"I had an interesting conversation with a cabbage today!"
Hpe you didn't feel intimidated
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: Iains
Date: 27 Sep 18 - 05:40 AM

I left kindergarten decades ago. II guess you could not find the way out.


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: Thompson
Date: 27 Sep 18 - 05:53 AM

Interesting that Jim Carroll - someone whose thoughts interest me because they're based on his own lived experience and not on opinion - is being described as someone speaking from dogma.

Good points on the crimes, Jim - though it seems to me that very often when you see robbery with violence reported the names of the arrested are Connors and Ward and Maughan… Certainly there are many settled criminals, but particularly violent robberies now seems to be interwoven with Traveller culture in a way they never were before.


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: KarenH
Date: 27 Sep 18 - 06:16 AM

I cannot say where the 'adage' comes from, though I'm thinking that discussions on the topic must go back to ancient Greece and Rome.

The saying uses the word 'above' not 'outside', suggesting to me a focus originally on higher-ranked people. So in Magna Carta one thing the Barons wanted to do was to make the king obey the rules as they saw them. The problem maybe comes up when some European rulers claimed the 'divine right of kings', to be accountable only to god, not to man-made laws. My understanding is that at least one US president has suggested that if the president does it it cannot be illegal.

Donuel wrote this: "The intent of the law was originally devised to hold the powerful and educated to bear more responsibility under the law because the well to do simply know better than the unwashed public." I'm not sure which society this refers to, but I doubt it would apply to all societies with written codes of law. How does trial by a jury of peers fit in with this idea?   

But it isn't just a matter of what the law says, it is a matter of who is able to enforce their rights through the law, which, as others have said, costs money. It's also a matter the purposes for which the law is cited, which may be to demonize a particular group, and of the strictness with which it is enforced.

Regarding travellers, there are, rightly in my view, obligations on English local councils to make provisions for sites, though my understanding is that these have been weakened, and that not all councils have fully complied.

Ians's raising of the topic of travellers in the context of Joe's thread looks racist to me, as well as, obviously, being designed to wind up Jim Carroll who, unfortunately, has taken the bait. Jim, we feel your passion, but in cases like this, maybe less is more?


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: KarenH
Date: 27 Sep 18 - 06:20 AM

This might be out of date, but it gives the gist of the legal position at a relatively recent point in time.

https://www.eastcambs.gov.uk/sites/default/files/community/local_authorities_and_gypsies_travellers_a_gui_13895.pdf


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Sep 18 - 08:33 AM

"but particularly violent robberies now seems to be interwoven with Traveller culture"
Whate does that come from
There are estimated to be around 63,000 Travellers on the roads of Britain
How may reports are there of Travellers committing violent crimes thay youi know of
The greatest rise in violent crimes in Britain today are urban based knife attacks
You seem to me honing in on the acts of a few criminals to present a adverse picture of an entire community
Were you to do this of, say, the Black community you would, justifiably in my opinion. lay yourself open to accusations of racism

Travellers in general, criminals or not, ater treated abominably in Britain - it is not unreasonable to expect a backlash from that

Ireland is is fact worse
While we have lived here, several times we've experienced going into town for a pint and finding all the bars closed
When Travellers are reported in teh ae the police make a point of visiting the bars and telling the publicans only to let in people they know
The publicans are told that if Travellers are let in and trouble breaks out the police will not respond to calls for assistance
Work that one out
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: Thompson
Date: 27 Sep 18 - 12:07 PM

I'm talking about Ireland and not Britain.

I'd have sympathy with pubs that don't want Travellers, given the reports of fights with slash hooks and axes.


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Sep 18 - 12:36 PM

"I'm talking about Ireland and not Britain. "
There are a few incidents of violent crime here, not that many, but basically the same applies - a minority of criminals
I really don't know where this is coming from
If a settled person commits a crime nobody associates it to the community as a whole
If a Traveller commits a crime it is identified as a Traveller crime andfd the press makes a meal of it

A couple of examples of how Travellers are treated - under the law, to keep it in context
In 2006 a farmer was tried and convicted of 'executing' a Traveller
The Traveller was trespassing on his farm, it was presumed, with the intention of burgling the home
The Farmer caught him standing in the yard, went for a shotgun, shot him and seriously wounded him
He then took a fence pole and beat him severely
Leaving him lying badly wounded on the ground, went in to his house, reloaded his shotgun, came out and administered the coupe-de-grace, killing him
The farmer was convicted of manslaughter, but the sentence was dismissed on appeal

As far as the law is concerned, there is no justice for Travellers

Your last sentence makes your own position quite clear and shows I am wasting my time
I have no intention of talking to deaf ears - bye
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Sep 18 - 12:58 PM

PROBABLY WASTING MY TIME
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: Iains
Date: 27 Sep 18 - 01:47 PM

Karen H
I suggest you read more carefully as to who raised the issue of travellers and then you can apologise!


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Sep 18 - 03:34 PM

Raising people whio suffer worst by Britsih justice is a matter for apology
Must right that one down

You've never really been very good at this, have you?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Sep 18 - 03:45 PM

You really don't get the point of debating these issues, do you?
Il mappy to do so whenever the opportunity arises
On the one hand, I get a chance of expressing an opinion on a subject that's dear to me based on over thirty years of working and associating with Travellers
On the other hand, these discussions always draw out the rednecks and bigots who offer real-life examples of the bigotry and racism I describe and more or les help me make my case - sort of like an illustrated lecture

Win - win as far as I'm concerned
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Sep 18 - 05:25 PM

besides poor Nomads

I am reminded of my cartoon about being above the law when I pictured George W Bush floating among the clouds suspended by lead balloons afixed with the Presidential Seal. Far below were monumental letters spelling out 'LAW'.

The meaning was transparent to me but to my surprise it was opaque to others. Now it seems our President is completely above the law.


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: Charmion
Date: 28 Sep 18 - 10:07 AM

In "Le lys rouge", Anatole France commented for the ages on applying the law to the wealthy and the destitute alike:

La majestueuse égalité des lois, qui interdit au riche comme au pauvre de coucher sous les ponts, de mendier dans les rues et de voler du pain. C’est un des bienfaits de la Révolution.

[The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread. That is one of the good effects of the Revolution.]


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Sep 18 - 01:37 PM

"applying the law to the wealthy and the destitute alike:"
But he didn't include the penguins - (my favourite novel)
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: Thompson
Date: 29 Sep 18 - 06:49 PM

Is this the farmer Jim's talking about?


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Sep 18 - 06:56 PM

Yes
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: No One Is Above the Law?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Sep 18 - 03:05 AM

Shouls have added that that wiki report was an almost straight lift from our tabloid press
Our President, Michael D Higgins summed up the situation with Travellers here in Irelandin one simple statement yesterday: we must never treat the refugees coming to Ireland the way we treat Travellers"
Jim Carroll


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