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BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far

Will Fly 02 Oct 17 - 07:55 AM
Acme 02 Oct 17 - 08:18 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Oct 17 - 08:23 AM
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Mrrzy 02 Oct 17 - 08:43 AM
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Donuel 06 Oct 17 - 10:02 PM
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Teribus 07 Oct 17 - 02:11 AM
Acme 07 Oct 17 - 11:00 AM
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Subject: BS: Las Vegas - 50 dead so far
From: Will Fly
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 07:55 AM

The mind boggles. Whatever next...?


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 50 dead so far
From: Acme
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 08:18 AM

Woke to this horrifying news. This story is going to unfold for days and weeks; another argument about gun control will arise before it is again quashed by the National Rifle Association. Soon, like Columbine and Virginia Tech and Sandy Hook, it will become a target of conspiracy theorists. Pardon my jaundiced view; we live in troubled times.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 50 dead so far
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 08:23 AM

50 dead, two hundred wounded - all possible due to the right to carry arms
Unbelievable
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 50 dead so far
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 08:30 AM

Have a wonderful day despite the all too familiar gun lust incidents.
We already know the cause culture and laws that protect shooters.
The police will investigate everything except what we already know.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 50 dead so far
From: Mrrzy
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 08:43 AM

Sigh. Biggest... so far.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 50 dead so far
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 10:59 AM

it will be interesting to know at what point the law was broken. thirty seconds before the assassin opened fire - was he still within the law, and within his rights?


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 50 dead so far
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 11:20 AM

Thoughts and prayers are with the victims and their families.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 50 dead so far
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 12:02 PM

One wonders how the fact that this shooting took place at a country music festival is going to affect the national discussion. Country music fans tend to be supportive of 2nd Amendment rights. Unlike the victims of the Pulse nightclub shooting, many of the Las Vegas victims probably own guns similar to the ones used against them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 50 dead so far
From: olddude
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 12:27 PM

It is an act by a deranged coward who wanted to kill people. He was using fully automatic weapons that are not legal to own anywhere in the USA. That is not a hunting rifle. Stop blaming the gun, this guy would have killed people with anything. A car, a bomb anything. He was out to kill innocence people. Evil has a way always to murder regardless of the means. Boston bomber used a pressure cooker.
I have no idea how to stop people like him. He had no criminal records.. No neighbors had issues, his brother was speechless as he had no sign.. How can any police protect against such an evil person


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 50 dead so far
From: olddude
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 12:34 PM

Long before there we any gun control laws in America, this stuff never happened. People could buy scary things right from the mail, never happened... What is going on in the mind of America today, that's the question. What happened.. News Media, political fighting.. I dont know but we better find out and soon. Something is really broken


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 50 dead so far
From: Jack Campin
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 12:47 PM

Stop blaming the gun, this guy would have killed people with anything.

Crap. The video footage makes it absolutely clear that the guy had immensely effective weapons and knew exactly how to use them; like many American gun nuts, you included, he had many years of training. So he used what he was familiar with. The only guy who's done more damage was Timothy McVeigh, and assembling a truck bomb is a LOT more effort.

Choosing such a good spot to shoot from suggests a bit more than your aveage gun nut, though. I wonder if he was a veteran trained as a sniper?

(Looniest comment I've seen so far: some fat cat celebrity at the concert saying he could have stopped Paddock if he'd only had a gun with him. Firing 32 floors up into the side of a hotel with mind-boggled onlookers staring out of every occupied window - yeah right).


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 50 dead so far
From: mg
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 01:19 PM

Maybe the concierge is a veteran trained as a sniper. Maybe the woman who vacuums the rooms is a veteran trained as a sniper. Maybe the visiting auditor is a veteran trained as a sniper. Maybe they could have taken him out.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 50 dead so far
From: beardedbruce
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 01:25 PM

Big Al Whittle,

"t will be interesting to know at what point the law was broken. thirty seconds before the assassin opened fire - was he still within the law, and within his rights? "


When he illegally obtained fully automatic weapons ( ie, without a Class III permit) he was in violation of the law, and had committed a crime.

When he fired those weapons. he was committing another crime.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 50 dead so far
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 01:33 PM

Old Dude, some would call you deranged because you have more guns than people in YOUR HOUSE. The same is true for all your guns are fun, friends. YES there is something off with anyone who has multiple guns even if they claim "But I kill animals with them!".

I know PTSD folk and they have to have any kind of weapon to feel calm and safe even if its only a knife on a keychain.
Understand I am not attacking you or Rap I am attacking a condition slight or severe.

Oftimes the more defensive the more sick.

When the thought of sacrificing any of your guns -scares or angers you- for the greater good, it is a sign you are a little off.
Most commonly in veterans.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 50 dead so far
From: Vashta Nerada
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 01:34 PM

At the risk of pedantry, the total is now 58 dead and over 500 wounded (515 taken to hospitals). In the overnight hours someone was able to start comparing notes. What a grim job for that scorekeeper.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 50 dead so far
From: olddude
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 01:46 PM

Don with all due respect
you
DDon't know me and talking about something
YYou don't know
AAbout
And jack go back under your rock
You didn't
Hear a wword Isaid


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 50 dead so far
From: olddude
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 01:48 PM

Blame guns and the killing still goes on or try to figure out the problem now in this society.. Carry on I no longer wish to discuss it


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 50 dead so far
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 02:08 PM

Old dude, if you're looking for someone to do the pro-gun/anti-gun dance with, please look elsewhere. I own seven guns myself and have no problem with law-abiding and reasonably sane people owning as many hunting or target guns as they wish. I choose to draw the line at semi-automatic weapons which can be converted to fully-automatic and/or equipped with high-capacity magazines and which serve no purpose other than to kill human beings.

The point of my post was this: When shootings like this have occurred in the past, the rabid pro-gun faction has been relatively immune. They weren't personally injured. The victims were not among their number. It happened to "them" (gays, blacks, religious minorities) not "us" (straight white Christians). Well, that asshole was shooting at a bunch of mostly white, Christian, 2nd Amendment supporters. He was shooting at "us", not "them". That is bound to have some effect on how the conversation about the shooting goes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 50 dead so far
From: Stu
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 02:18 PM

A significant proportion of Americans have chosen this, they want lax gun laws and are prepared to accept a certain number of dead and injured people for their freedom to have guns. If you live a society awash with guns then this will happen, it cannot be legislated against.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 50 dead so far
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 02:27 PM

Hmmmmm, Trumpy's ban on Muslim immigrants didn't help stop it then?

If it had been a Muslim shooter, he'd be a 'Muslim Terrorist' according to the media. Wonder if this guy will be a 'Christian Terrorist'? I'm not taking bets.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 50 dead so far
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 02:41 PM

I never blamed guns, America has never come anywhere near blaming guns,
as evidenced by expanded laws to have more and better guns everywhere.

I blame a condition and the Never ending wars since Viet Nam with more gun trained survivors and their kids. I am not ignoring the average entertainment game, show or movie with an average of 10+ minutes of 'gun play'

The us vs. them argument is thought provoking. I never thought of it that way.

Horror heroics are what we are supposed to honor now, never blaming guns.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 50 dead so far
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 03:16 PM

"The point of my post was this: When shootings like this have occurred in the past, the rabid pro-gun faction has been relatively immune. They weren't personally injured. The victims were not among their number. It happened to "them" (gays, blacks, religious minorities, children, toddlers) not "us" (straight white Christians). Well, that asshole was shooting at a bunch of mostly white, Christian, 2nd Amendment supporters. He was shooting at "us", not "them"."
quote BWL

Fascinating.
This is thinking outside the box but unlikely to produce any enlightened laws. I guess I really don't think in terms of us vs them.
I worry this kind of thinking can encourage blaming liberals and a call to civil war from Christian 2nd ammendmenters.

To improve bigger and better shooting of deer without noise the NRA
just so happen need to pass their silencer freedom laws. I'm sure it will silence the shooting of 'dears'.
I doubt silencers will keep these shootings quiet.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 50 dead so far
From: Jeri
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 03:35 PM

I believe that gun is legal if it was manufactured prior to 1986. Probably wasn't, but do people actually check the age of weapons they're going to commit mass murder with?


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 50 dead so far
From: Stu
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 04:54 PM

Can't see why everyone in the US is so uptight about North Korea getting a nuke. After all, the nuke won't kill anyone.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 50 dead so far
From: keberoxu
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 05:36 PM

Here I was, worried about Phoenix, Arizona, because there was a right-wing summit going on there,
which reminded me of the counterprotest at the Boston Common.

Instead the Bogeyman of Derangement waved its magic what-ever
at Las Vegas, Nevada.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 50 dead so far
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 05:49 PM

I can only suggest that anyone who suggests that gun laws have little to do with this compares the number of deaths due to guns in the UK to the number of gun related deaths in the USA. As far as I can see, the statistics speak for themselves.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 50 dead so far
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 06:00 PM

There are some us vs. them scenarios I believe in: 1% against the vulnerable, Korean cult vs US, Putin against the world, but Americans shooting Americans to get even for known or unknown reasons is a new individual gun sport. It is a relatively new reality. Perhaps Our Civil War in the past has not really passed.

Growing up in the West, Ozarks, bible belt, Midwest and western NY, I really do understand families with guns with or without military ties.

It is not that I do not understand. It is that I question things others may take as automatic heritage or an inviolate right.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 50 dead so far
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 06:11 PM

I do think that it's quite important that we know whether or not this chap acquired his automatic weapon legally or not. If not, the gun laws don't apply. That isn't to say that gun culture in the US doesn't apply. We do need to be clear about this. Kneejerk reactions are rarely the right reactions.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 50 dead so far
From: Jack Campin
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 06:27 PM

I do think that it's quite important that we know whether or not this chap acquired his automatic weapon legally or not.

He had 19 guns in his hotel room - plenty enough to kill twice as many people.

Nevada state law lets you buy pretty near anything that goes bang. Most of what he had must have been legal.

This must be a HUGE boost for the gun industry. Nutters all over the country getting hard-ons for Paddock's hardware. They haven't had a good national-headline-news bloody massacre to really show their product off since Trump got elected.

Actually I have a hard time giving a shit when American humans kill each other. The real catastrophe of American gun ownership is what hunting does to the environment: America's animals never voted for Trump.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 50 dead so far
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 06:48 PM

He may well have had other legal weapons. But I want to know whether the murder weapon was legal. If it wasn't, there's nothing to be said about gun laws in America. There may plenty to be said about gun culture in America. Not the same thing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 50 dead so far
From: bobad
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 07:08 PM

Wonder if this guy will be a 'Christian Terrorist'?

If he belongs to or pledges allegiance to an extremist Christian group that believes that anyone who does not share his beliefs should be killed then yes, he should rightfully be called a Christian terrorist.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 50 dead so far
From: olddude
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 07:22 PM

Bee, I own hunting and target guns no auto or semi auto rifles.. Myself I have no use for an ar15 in semi auto mode, not a good deer gun, nor much of a target gun either.. It is designed for war.. Don't own one don't want one. No use for a sportsman


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 50 dead so far
From: olddude
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 07:29 PM

And I am the one here who has been screaming to get rid of gun show loophole.. In any event it is about how the hell someone goes so far off track as this guy. Someone intent on killing will kill regardless using any means.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 50 dead so far
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 07:41 PM

The champion of mass shooters may well have had other illegal weapons. I do not want to know or care whether the murder weapons were illegal. If they are, there's something to be said about gun law enforcement in America. There may little to be said about gun culture in America that can't be said about gun laws, because they are the same thing. Thanks to the NRA on behalf of manufacturers.

Imagine every Starbucks in the world, in America we have more gun stores in comparison.

Turning Bushmasters into automatics is an open 30 second secret.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 50 dead so far
From: Acme
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 07:55 PM

It looks like Nevada doesn't have much of any gun restrictions, especially pertaining to high capacity or automatic weapons. Chances are he'd have ignore those laws and found them elsewhere, since he was of a mind to commit murder.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 50 dead so far
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 07:58 PM

"Someone intent on killing will kill regardless using any means."

Bullfuckingshit

575 bullets in people in 10 minutes.

What are the other comparable means in reality?

mad bombers at the marketplace?

Mindless repeated phrases by the NRA are gonna hafta STOP
they make innocent folk like old dude sound crazy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 50 dead so far
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 08:17 PM

Olddude bleats "What is going on in the mind of America today....?" Well like many a spoilt brat, America got rich to excess, couldn't handle it and wound up degenerate to the point of choosing Trump.

A bigger question is, what's going on in olddude's mind? To which the answer is what Steve said: gun culture. It's a culture that like many another (and all religions*) infects minds from the cradle. If I had been born into it myself, I would probably have succumbed. It takes a strong mind to resist. Gun culture was cultivated in the darkest days of America's dark modern history - part of what Dee Brown in Bury My Heart At Wounded Knee called "an almost reverential attitude to the ideal of personal freedom for those who already had it."

----

*I'm always amused by those who offer their prayers as a first response. What do they say in those prayers, and what kind of god do they think is listening?


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 50 dead so far
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 08:24 PM

Good stuff, Peter. But olddude is a good dude. Well worth remembering.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 50 dead so far
From: Jack Campin
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 08:39 PM

Maybe what this old accountant was thinking wasn't so uniquely American.

What he did was close to a one-man Battle of Omdurman. Which for a long time was a matter of chest-heaving national pride to the British and a huge boost to Churchill's personal myth. There are any number of Ukippers quite capable of fantasizing themselves into the colonial army's position and mowing down fuzzy-wuzzies with machineguns, they just don't have the weaponry to do it for real.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 50 dead so far
From: olddude
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 09:19 PM

Thank you steve, Olddude simply likes competition shooting, rifle and handgun.. I also hunt from time to time.. You understand that my friend. Most here don't... No I do not support the nra. Ugh


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 50 dead so far
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 09:29 PM

so basically someone has broken the law supplying this chap with guns, and he has broken a law acquiring automatic weapons...

is that right?


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 50 dead so far
From: olddude
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 09:36 PM

Yes, absolutely. I suspect he may have got an ar15 and had it converted illegal to full auto. That's why those guns and the ak47 should be banned.. They are no use to sportsmen or competition shooting. Just for war


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 50 dead so far
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 09:44 PM

He could have legally obtained his 40 guns including legal automatics and murdered 59.
There is even legal murder
so basically it sounds like you want to say something


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 50 dead so far
From: olddude
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 09:45 PM

The reason people use firearms to do such terrible things is not because of our laws, but the loopholes in some of our laws like the gun show make it easy to bypass many of the common sense laws we do have. The nra is powerful and the political guys won't go against them for fear of losing their jobs.. It's sad very sad. However, I would be just as horrified if he dumped napalm out the window on people... He was out to kill.. The rifle was an easier choice for him. But he was out to kill others


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Oct 17 - 10:16 PM

Old dude you are still repeating NRA jargon.

You are more qualified by your accomplishments to discredit the NRA than I , to discredit them to their face to their fans and to their politicians.
silence is consent
and not supporting is not
discrediting them.

this is assuming 30,000 lives lost per year is a meaningful greater good compared to go along to get along attitudes many have about the NRA


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Oct 17 - 12:47 AM

Donuel says: Turning Bushmasters into automatics is an open 30 second secret.

Donuel hit the nail on the head. The same applies to the AR15. The recordings of the massacre had the familiar sound of automatic rifle fire that all of us who were in military service have heard. This was a military rifle, not a hunting gun. It was meant to kill people - and these weapons should be banned throughout the U.S.

I'd rather have European-style laws controlling firearms, but I doubt that such legislation would ever pass U.S. legislatures. But for God's sake, we need to ban military weapons - NOW.

The Trump Administration says, "not now." They are trying to imply that it is inappropriate to argue about banning military weapons in this time of mourning. I disagree. Do honor to these victims by banning military weapons NOW.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Iains
Date: 03 Oct 17 - 03:56 AM

A crazy with guns illegally converted to automatic kills 50, wounds 200
In 2010, there were an estimated 5,419,000 crashes (30,296 fatal crashes), killing 32,999 and injuring 2,239,000,[2] and around 2,000 children under 16 years old die every year due to traffic collisions.

The argument concerning ownership of weapons capable of being converted to military spec. is a no brainer. They should be banned.
If a multimillionaire, with no previous, suddenly decides to open fire on a crowd, it is impossible to have any prior warning. Guns were a convenient weapon, it could have been a truck, or maybe a fuel tanker. If a person has money and wants to cause mayhem the possibilities are endless. He could have crashed his fully fuelled plane into the crowd.
If you wish to ban all guns, perhaps cars should be banned as well.
They have killed >3.5 million since their introduction into the US.
That is a much, much bigger number than 50.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Oct 17 - 04:15 AM

The difference is that the purpose of a car is to transport people and goods from A to B, whilst the purpose of a gun is to kill.

People need cars. Nobody, other than the armed forces and farmers, needs a gun. The UK and Australia are proof of that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Stu
Date: 03 Oct 17 - 04:41 AM

"If you wish to ban all guns, perhaps cars should be banned as well."

False equivalence, not an argument.

Apart from sports guns and hunting guns, all guns are banned here in the UK. We have plenty of folk who shoot but their weapons are strictly regulated; if a copper sees someone waving a pistol about then they got it illegally and they are dealt with (the police shot a man waving a pistol about dead the other day). Our hunters hunt, sportsmen shoot etc. but apart from that on criminals want or need a gun, and if you produce on in public, you're going to suffer the consequences.

I guess this would be impossible for a huge number of reasons, not least the scared cow of the second amendment and the culture of violence that the US is steeped in.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Oct 17 - 04:42 AM

"They have killed >3.5 million since their introduction into the US.
That is a much, much bigger number than 50."

I'm puzzled as to why you think that's a valid juxtaposition.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Iains
Date: 03 Oct 17 - 04:46 AM

Easy Shaw. It is the human behind the machine that controls it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: theleveller
Date: 03 Oct 17 - 04:49 AM

What Stu said.

How do I know that American are totally insane? First of all they refuse to accept that they are 20 times more likely to be killed by gunfire than in countries with tighter gun laws and that half of all mass shootings in history have happened in the USA, all as a result of an obsession with gun ownership. Then, when the worst mass shooting in their history happens, what do they do? Go out and buy more guns.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Oct 17 - 04:51 AM

Steve's the name. It may be easy to you but you've attracted three sets of furrowed brows in under an hour. Have a large espresso and try again.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Oct 17 - 05:48 AM

"What Stu said.

How do I know that American are totally insane? First of all they refuse to accept that they are 20 times more likely to be killed by gunfire than in countries with tighter gun laws and that half of all mass shootings in history have happened in the USA, all as a result of an obsession with gun ownership. Then, when the worst mass shooting in their history happens, what do they do? Go out and buy more guns."


You forgot to mention that they believe the answer to gun-violence, as well as buying more guns, is to offer 'thoughts and prayers'. 😳

He's not listening, guys. You're fucked.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 03 Oct 17 - 05:54 AM

Caleb Keeter, lead guitarist at the event, was a lifelong proponent of the Second. He has now tweeted: "I cannot express how wrong I was." That's earned him plenty of abuse from gun lobbyists, but I'm relieved to realise from his more recent, measured, thoughts that olddude will not be among them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Oct 17 - 06:44 AM

Every US kid in school has had active shooter practice lockdowns. They all have a fear of being shot I can not imagine

Until - I was at the Mall food court and lifted the wooden garbage can door way too hard and it went BANG - kids poured out of several booths and started running for their lives. Like fire spreading there were more who responded to the bang and running and did the same.

I now know kids constant fear of shooters.
I thank old dude for being a foil to present some waves of change that desperately need to turn into a current and someday a torrential call for common sense without loopholes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Oct 17 - 07:20 AM

The bbc is reporting that a lot of fake news is going about claiming the shooter was an anti Trump fanatic wheb the evidence is that he had no affliation to any such party or movement. It is hard to think of anything more despicable than using these people's deaths in that way.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Mrrzy
Date: 03 Oct 17 - 08:17 AM

He's being called a domestic terrorist.

The issue isn't with Americans and guns, look at Canada, lots of guns, you don't have to disarm like Australia. The issue is that Americans actually think it's OK to shoot people.

You can shoot people who come onto your property - when did trespassing get the death penalty?

You can shoot people who are taking your stuff - since when did robbery carry the death penalty?

You can shoot people when you're scared - since when is that not called Panicking and if you're a cop, you aren't a cop any more?

John Wayne has a lot to answer for.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Oct 17 - 08:29 AM

Bill O'Rielly agrees with Mrrzy. He says "these mass shooting accidents are the price for freedom."
Some Americans think its OK like Mrrzy said. Others may know better but won't lift a finger.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Oct 17 - 08:29 AM

The moment you educate people that it's NOT OK to shoot people, the imagined 'need' for guns goes away, and disarmament makes complete sense to them

Unfortunately, the NRA and the weapons industry do a lot of lobbying and spend a lot of money on measures to ensure that the US public are not educated thus, and on instilling fear and paranoia.

Very few people have guns here, we're not scared. Average 70 gun-deaths a year in a population of 65 million v. 12,000 in a population of 360 million. Says it all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Oct 17 - 08:36 AM

A popular NRA mantra is "If the good guys carry guns.."

Well there were something like 20,000 at that festival, in a City with probably the laxest gun laws, and easiest access to gun purchase...

Yet apparently that night none of the good citizens in the crowd were carrying, or they were so shocked they were incapable of responding, drawing, and shooting back...???

Which thankfully prevented the scenario of extra untold mayhem and bloodbath
of panicking shooters firing guns in every direction at any imagined sniper position...

That would have been one hell of an uncontrolled mess of a cowboy shoot out for the cops to contend with...

So did the festival have a search and hand in guns at the gate rule...???
Which would have been sensible considering the amount of alcohol to be enjoyed at a Country festival.....

And even if they did, how easily could stewards and security have implemented that 'infringement' on legal gun carriers rights...??????


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Oct 17 - 08:53 AM

One guy said that he saw the woman next to him shot in the head, "If only I'd had my gun...".

i wonder how 'having his gun' would have been of any benefit to the dead woman? How would he have managed to 'take out' a distant assailant he couldn't see and didn't know for sure where he was?

If people had 'had their guns' at the festival, the result would have been considerably more people dead and injured. Anyone with at least half a functioning brain should be able to understand that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 03 Oct 17 - 09:59 AM

Punkfolkrocker, the band were heavily armed, but as their guitarist Caleb said elsewhere in the tweet I cited above, their guns were useless in the circs.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Stu
Date: 03 Oct 17 - 10:03 AM

"the band were heavily armed"

We are totally fucked as a species.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Oct 17 - 10:10 AM

In the UK the list of items prohibited from being brought into a concert, festival, or public event
ranges from fair to unreasonable..
But we have to accept the rules, or risk being barred entry.....

This summer, even pineapples were added to the list......


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Oct 17 - 10:15 AM

"the band were heavily armed"

Band audition - "Ok guys, we are looking for new band members, so let's see how well you play.. and shoot...!!!???"


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Oct 17 - 10:23 AM

Big Al Whittle

The latest report is that the shooter had modified two guns himself (illegally)

Selling him a gun would have been legal in any state in the USA (See restrictions on HUNTING RIFLES)

NO proposed gun regulations would have stopped him from obtaining guns.


During WWII, the US made and dropped a million or so 12 gauge single shot shotguns into Europe, for use by the resistance ( in addition to other guns)

They consisted of 1- 12 gauge shotgun cartridge, a 2" piece of 2x4 wood, a nail, two pipes, and a couple of metal straps ( could have been made with rope or canvas strips). They were used to shoot enemy soldiers WHO HAD GUNS, and let the resistance arm themselves.

There are 300 + MILLION guns in the USA now. Say we collect 200,000,000 of them. That still leaves 100,000,000 out there.

Not even including theft of weapons from the police or military.

How many criminals do you think will turn in their illegal weapons?
It is against the law for a person ever convicted of a felony to possess a firearm- so what good does making a new law do?

It is against the law to shoot people without legal cause- Has that EVER prevented a shooting?


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Jack Campin
Date: 03 Oct 17 - 10:27 AM

Search on the SCRAN site (http://www.scran.ac.uk/) for "Ploughmen at a 'harvest home'. Fairygreen Farm, Kinrossie, Perthshire, 1936" (they say "no Internet use" but if you have a Scottish library card you can log in).

Band lineup: Highland pipes, melodeon, rifle.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Iains
Date: 03 Oct 17 - 11:30 AM

Straying away from this horrific tragedy a little. Below is an analysis
some may agree with and others vehemently deny. It concerns a comparison with the UK gun laws(after Dunblane), Australia and the US.
It also raises possible reasons for the 2nd amendment and how Scotland never felt the need to follow the same road.
http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/14340378.Twenty_years_on__the_truth_about_Dunblane_and_gun_laws/


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: leeneia
Date: 03 Oct 17 - 11:49 AM

The real problem is that the criminal was insane. If he didn't have guns, he could have driven a truck into the crowd, he could have built a bomb, or he could have started a fire in a crowded building.

Starting in the 1970's, western countries have abandoned their mentally ill. And other, evil people have moved in to exploit their fear and pain and to use them as "soldiers" for their causes. The Internet has made this process much worse.

I used the word "insane." Insane is not a medical term. What can it mean? Paranoia, alcoholism, illegal drugs, PSTD, brain tumor, are the main things that come to my mind.

Yes, I certainly wish that there were fewer guns around. But I also wish that the mentally impaired could find real treatment.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Jack Campin
Date: 03 Oct 17 - 12:13 PM

It's circular reasoning to say that someone is insane when your only evidence is what he did. That isn't evidence at all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Stu
Date: 03 Oct 17 - 12:31 PM

"But I also wish that the mentally impaired could find real treatment."

We're all "mentally impaired". It is impossible to judge whether someone presents a risk; this is a real and dangerous misunderstanding of mental illness. Demonising mentally ill people in this way only leads to a dark place...


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Oct 17 - 02:59 PM

There are 30,000 gun related deaths per year by firearms, and this number is not disputed. The U.S. population is 324,059,091 as of June 22, 2016. Do the math: 0.000000925% of the population dies from gun related actions each year. Statistically speaking, this is insignificant! What is never told, however, is a breakdown of those 30,000 deaths, to put them in perspective as compared to other causes of death: ? 65% of those deaths are by suicide, which would never be prevented by gun laws. ? 15% are by law enforcement in the line of duty and justified. ? 17% are through criminal activity, gang and drug related or mentally ill persons ? better known as gun violence. ? 3% are accidental discharge deaths. So technically, "gun violence" is not 30,000 annually, but drops to 5,100. Still too many?

Now lets look at how those deaths spanned across the nation. ? 480 homicides (9.4%) were in Chicago ? 344 homicides (6.7%) were in Baltimore ? 333 homicides (6.5%) were in Detroit ? 119 homicides (2.3%) were in Washington D.C. (a 54% increase over prior years) So basically, 25% of all gun crime happens in just 4 cities. All 4 of those cities have strict gun laws, so it is not the lack of law that is the root cause. This basically leaves 3,825 for the entire rest of the nation, or about 75 deaths per state. That is an average because some States have much higher rates than others. For example, California had 1,169 and Alabama had 1. Now, who has the strictest gun laws by far? California, of course, but understand, it is not guns causing this. It is a crime rate spawned by the number of criminal persons residing in those cities and states. So if all cities and states are not created equal, then there must be something other than the tool causing the gun deaths. Are 5,100 deaths per year horrific?

How about in comparison to other deaths? All death is sad and especially so when it is in the commission of a crime but that is the nature of crime. Robbery, death, rape, assault are all done by criminals. It is ludicrous to think that criminals will obey laws. That is why they are called criminals. But what about other deaths each year?
? 40,000+ die from a drug overdose?THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR THAT!
? 36,000 people die per year from the flu, far exceeding the criminal gun deaths.
? 34,000 people die per year in traffic fatalities(exceeding gun deaths even if you include suicide). Now it gets good:
? 200,000+ people die each year (and growing) from preventable medical errors. You are safer walking in the worst areas of Chicago than you are when you are in a hospital!
? 710,000 people die per year from heart disease. It's time to stop the double cheeseburgers! So what is the point? If the liberal loons and the anti-gun movement focused their attention on heart disease, even a 10% decrease in cardiac deaths would save twice the number of lives annually of all gun-related deaths (including suicide, law enforcement, etc.). A 10% reduction in medical errors would be 66% of the total number of gun deaths or 4 times the number of criminal homicides ................ Simple, easily preventable 10% reductions!

So you have to ask yourself, in the grand scheme of things, why the focus on guns? It's pretty simple: Taking away guns gives control to governments. The founders of this nation knew that regardless of the form of government, those in power may become corrupt and seek to rule as the British did by trying to disarm the populace of the colonies. It is not difficult to understand that a disarmed populace is a controlled populace.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Oct 17 - 03:15 PM

from Iain's clicky:
" Scotland has about 75,000 licensed firearms and shotguns. England and Wales even more, with about 1.8 million in circulation. And these guns have impact."

so, UK 1,875.000 firearms, 30 homicides by guns 0.000016 killed per gun
USA 300,000,000+ firearms 5100 homicides by guns <0.000017 killed per gun


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Oct 17 - 03:29 PM

Yeah... The Las Vegas mass killer was a retired accountant...

I guess he also was quite adept at minimising the significance of human suffering by visualising the world in terms of abstract numbers...???


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Oct 17 - 03:43 PM

One death is a tragedy- 50 is a political windfall.

But the fact is, NO additional gun laws would have prevented this, or other deaths.
THE PRESENT LAWS are not being enforced, so why pass more that will be ignored?

It is already against the law to murder people- so why do you think a new law would have stopped these murders?

Passing additional gun laws would NOT deal with the actual problem- they would be "feel-good" measures- Look, See what we have done!

Which would not reduce the murders, or be obeyed by the criminals. It would affect law-abiding folks- .

When your family is seconds away from tragedy, the police are minutes away.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Oct 17 - 03:59 PM

Oh well, no point trying to do anything about it then. Just keep offering your useless 'thoughts and prayers'.

Good luck. So glad I don't live there.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Oct 17 - 04:13 PM

Backwoodsman,

Perhaps if we enforced the laws we have, and actually tried to tell people that it is NOT ok to violate the law because one wants to ( ie, punish those that do violate the law) there might be fewer murders.

Why do you think that passing laws that have been shown to have no or negative effect in this country a( see post with cities that have high crime- and strongest laws) would do any good? Can someone explain that?


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Oct 17 - 04:17 PM

Not to worry, though.

It being illegal to fire a weapon in the city I live in, if someone invades my home I will just hit him/her over the head with a guitar, wrap the strings around their neck, and twist until the (person's) head comes off.... So much nicer than inflicting a disabling wound that they might recover from.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Oct 17 - 04:27 PM

What'd be the best string gauge for that... light or heavies..???

I have a few spare maple telecaster copy necks dotted around the house..

I think in the UK we might be allowed that much...????

..perhaps easier to explain to the law than baseball bats...?????


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Oct 17 - 04:48 PM

Smaller gauge would cut through the tendons and arteries better, as long as they are strong enough not to break.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: mg
Date: 03 Oct 17 - 04:57 PM

what was the chain of events in the hotel itself. there was a veteran two stories above killer i think who kept trying to reach hotel desk, police, etc. he finally reached police. did killer disable phone system first, which would have been a smart move I would think. what could hotel staff have done that would not have endangered rest of hotel staff and guests? perhaps a recorded message..this is room service. the police are on their way. at the point the killer knows things are coming her/his way, they often shoot themselves. what would have minutes have bought them? I don't know. just speculating...what did hotel staff know, what did they do, what are they trained for? in a casino hotel there must be massive security...


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Oct 17 - 05:21 PM

The weapons were illegally modified. So what? He still obtained the weapons legally. I ask once again for anyone going down this track to compare the gun deaths in the US with the gun deaths in the UK. The difference is blatantly obvious.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: robomatic
Date: 03 Oct 17 - 05:58 PM

My favorite quote for the NRA crowd is from John Sandford:

"Guns don't kill people, poeple kill people. . .
Guns just make it really really easy."


As for the idea that this stuff didn't happen before, check out the massacre in Bath, Michigan, in the 1930s. Bath hasn't been the same since. We've got more overall access to events now, and a blaring media.

It seems that this latest killer, Paddock, had no precursor signs. Well, his father was a top wanted criminal for one thing, and for another, we don't have all the facts yet.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Oct 17 - 06:00 PM

its their choice Dave. It a foreign country - they do things differently there. the similarities are superficial.

you can't superimpose your values on America - any more than the Americans could convince Iraq and Afghanistan to change just by invading them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 03 Oct 17 - 06:23 PM

Leeneia, be careful. It would be a harsh world that treated people as apparently sane as the LV perp was as though they were about to commit atrocities.

As I've said here before, I'm ok with Americans slaughtering each other. I'd just prefer the victims to be, say, white supremacists and NRA types rather than women, kids and the disadvantaged.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: mg
Date: 03 Oct 17 - 06:54 PM

how will you know which women are white supremacists and nra types?


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Oct 17 - 08:12 PM

So far everything about the weapons are 100% LEGAL so what?
I'll tell you, its easy as hell to get them and legally modify them with a part that costs 49.99 in the US.

Who else wants to avoid the issue because its too soon to talk about it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Kampervan
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 01:14 AM

Just for the record, the ownership of rifles, as well as shotguns, is still perfectly legal in the UK. it's just that we have very tight control over who can own them and how they're stored.

The UK banned handguns in 1997, but citizens are still able to own and shoot some shotguns and rifles with a license.
Shotguns and rifles may be licensed by applying for a certificate through the local police force, according to the government's guide on gun-licensing law.
The local authority will carry out a series of checks ? including interviews, criminal-records checks, and a visit to the person's property ? before granting permission.
For firearms other than a shotgun, applicants must give police a "good reason" for wanting to own one. Hunting or being a member of a shooting club, for example, might be seen as good reasons. Self-defence won't be considered a valid reason.
Semiautomatic firearms ? guns that will keep firing one round every time you pull the trigger ? are legal as long as the size of the cartridge they are designed to fire are no bigger than .22 inches in diameter.
Shotguns are legal at long as they can't hold more than three shotgun shells ? including the one in the chamber if it's a pump-action or semiautomatic shotgun. There's no such restriction for rifles.
Now take a look at some of guns that you can buy.
Most people think that you can only own shotguns where the shells are loaded by hand (popular in clay shooting, for example), but you can actually own and use semiautomatic shotguns, such as a Benelli M4.

The Ruger 10/22 is one of the most popular rifles for new shooters in the UK. It's a semiautomatic rifle that has been in production since 1964.
Remington says that their model Model 700 bolt-action rifle is the most popular sporting rifle ever made, with over 5 million sold. It's popular with police forces all over the world.

The Beretta ARX 160 is a military assault rifle used by the Italian army. The a semiautomatic version chambered in .22 LR can be used in the UK.
There are quite a few semiautomatic .22 LR versions of military rifles that you can buy in the UK, including the Heckler & Koch MP5 and this Heckler & Koch HK416, a version of the AR15 rifle that is used by special forces around the world ...
... and you can now even something very close to an AR-15 made by Smith and Wesson. It's called the M & P 15-22 and is based on the real AR15, which is itself the basis for the rifles used by many militaries around the world.
You can even get an UZI in .22LR.
Here's the hugely powerful Steyr HS 50 Cal. If you've got £5,000 and access to a shooting range big enough, you can have one in the UK.
You can only use it at limited number of specialist shooting ranges.
You can even own the British-made Accuracy International sniper rifle. It holds the record for the longest confirmed sniper kill in history and is yours for £23,000.
It's also possible to get some guns that look like handguns, but are actually legal because they've been specially lengthened to get around the restrictions on short-barreled guns. The GSG 1911 long-barrel pistol has a lengthened barrel and a fixed "counterweight rod" at the back which means it gets around the handgun ban.

The same goes for the Taurus LBR revolver, which has a 12-inch barrel and a permanently fixed "wrist support."
You can own the pump-action Mossberg 500 too ? just as long as it can only hold no more than two cartridges plus one in the chamber.
Punt guns were used in the 19th century to hunt waterfowl. It's still possible to pick them up second hand.
And finally, you can get a custom rifle made for you by the British gun-maker Holland and Holland ? like the one below that is chambered in .700 Nitro Express. The gun will cost you a couple hundred-thousand pounds and each round will set you back about £100.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 02:45 AM

Wise words here...


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Joe Offer
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 03:26 AM

I couldn't believe it when I first heard it, but then I moved into a very conservative area and found it to be true. The extremists in the NRA have a frightening interpretation of the Second Amendment. The amendment says this:
    A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
They interpret this as meaning that the Constitution gives them the sacred right to arm themselves to protect themselves against the Government, should the Government get out of hand.
People in my area really believe this, and it really frightens me. I'd prefer to use the ballot box to protect myself from the government getting out of hand. I have no idea how to protect myself from self-righteous vigilantes with guns.
-Joe-

P.S. Backwoodsman linked to a very good article - (click)


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 03:55 AM

you can't superimpose your values on America

But I am doing no such thing, Al. I have just asked people to look at the number of gun related deaths in the USA vs the UK and ask themselves why there is such a huge difference. I have no wish to impose anything on anyone and just want those supporting the US gun culture to work out for themselves why these tragedies happen for more frequently in the US than they do in the UK.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 04:52 AM

There's more than a single factor in play Dave. You're point about comparative gun-deaths is correct, I've made the exact same point myself.

But the huge difference between the UK and the US isn't just that we have far more stringent, and firmly applied gun-laws, it's about mindset. From the moment they're born, Americans have it rammed into their brains that the 'Mad-Dog Killers' and the 'Bad Guys' are coming for them, and that they need guns to protect themselves. Add that to their lax gun-laws and the easy availability of firearms, and you get what they've got.

Here in the UK, as Acorn says, gun-licensing is very strictly controlled, and the use to which a gun can be put is very limited. So there are comparatively few guns held by civilians, compared to the US.

And the mindset of having a gun to protect ourselves against 'The Bad Guys' coming into our homes to steal our laptops and Blu-Ray players isn't there because, over here, the 'Bad Guys' know the chances of being faced by a terrified householder waving a gun at them are virtually nil, and that our police don't carry guns. Therefore, the 'Bad Guys' themselves don't go armed - they don't need to! Add to that the fact that carrying any kind of weapon in the commission of a crime carries an automatic doubling of the sentence for the crime, and you have a very good deterrent.

Americans 'need' guns because many (most?) people have guns. They're brainwashed by the culture of guns. They are made fearful by their own culture, and by the propaganda of the NRA and its cohorts and adherents. There's a lot of money in guns, and that's how the NRA like it.

It's not the fault of the average American - he/she doesn't know any better, and they can't even begin to conceive of a place where ordinary decent people neither want, nor 'need' guns.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 05:52 AM

That is all true, BWM but where and how did the 'split' occur? Presumably sometime in the past something happened in the US to establish this gun culture that not only did not happen in the UK but did not seem to happen in any other civilized country. As you quite rightly say it is not the fault of the average person. All the Americans I have met both here and in the States are ordinary, decent folk who I am sure would support any move to make their country a safer place. Why can the leaders not start to wean people off a culture that kills thousands?

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 06:02 AM

its not just a culture myth. though is it? Have you seen the Crime and Investigation channel.....quite frequently the bad guy is coming for them.

of course there are the stars of the homicidal galaxy...Bundy,   Mark Chapman...but who the fuck is ready for the Fartsville Monster, from Bollocks County, Mississippi ( quiet little place, a great town to bring kids up in)....92 victims so far, time to call in behavioural scientists to tell you that they haven't got a clue?

you can buy two bungalows with swimming pools and four bedrooms in Florida for the price of my humble abode...but who would bloody want one?


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Stu
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 06:16 AM

"Taking away guns gives control to governments"

So much to unravel in this statement. It's an admission that democracy is a sham and force of arms and the violent imposition of an aggressor's will is the only way for society to function. Except society won't function under these conditions, as everyone disagrees to some level about HOW a society should function and if the only way to resolve these conflicts is with force means society has collapsed... there will be no rule of law, just individuals acting according to their own will.

It's one thing defending a democracy with force of arms, another threatening it from within because you don't like the way it's going. A democracy operates on consensus and a society agrees to give a government control for the common good and is changed via a vote. Of course this doesn't always work, but the idea that a civilised society cannot organise itself to look after its own citizens is an insidious one, especially in an established democracy such as the US.

This viewpoint is so utterly bleak and I wonder how many actually share it in the US? A degree of this belligerence is demonstrated by Trump and it's why the US is no longer seen as leader of the free world outside it's borders.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 06:43 AM

shouldn't governments have control?
isn't that a funtion of government?
if you are governed, you are controlled


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 06:50 AM

Legislation needs to be passed Heroes are needed from the gun cultire and the urbanite.

If you knew you were sick you could do some things to get better.

If you knew you were lied to you could learn the truth.

If you knew you were brainwashed you would be a little less brainwashed

Re read some posts and see who is sick and doesn't know.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 08:30 AM

DavetheGnome,

I posted earlier:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
from Iain's clicky:
" Scotland has about 75,000 licensed firearms and shotguns. England and Wales even more, with about 1.8 million in circulation. And these guns have impact."

so, UK 1,875.000 firearms, 30 homicides by guns 0.000016 killed per gun
USA 300,000,000+ firearms 5100 homicides by guns <0.000017 killed per gun

----------------------------------------------------------------------

The number of people murdered PER GUN in the UK is not much different from the number per gun murdered in the US.

So, the people in the UK are not so different- they just have less access to guns, so they move to other means to kill people.

Here in the US, the preferred means of suicide, when guns are not available, seems to be deliberate car accidents: A lot more dangerous to the rest of society. How many innocents are killed on the road each year?




Backwoodsman,

You state:"Here in the UK, as Acorn says, gun-licensing is very strictly controlled, and the use to which a gun can be put is very limited. So there are comparatively few guns held by civilians, compared to the US."

Yet there are just about as many murders PER GUN in the UK as in the USA- So obviously all that careful vetting of gun owners has no effect.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 08:48 AM

BeardedBruce

So, the people in the UK are not so different- they just have less access to guns

That is the whole point surely. Less guns = less murders. It is not people that are in the wrong. It is the legislation that allows free access to firearms to anyone and therefore to more nutcases.

As to so they move to other means to kill people. Well, I'm not sure where to start with that one. Firstly, the gun has been the preferred tool of death since its introduction. Secondly, the gun is more likely to cause death than any of these 'other means' you allude to. Finally, rate of intentional homicide, by any method, is still many times higher in the USA than it is in the UK. The only difference I can see that accounts for such disparity is the gun culture.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 09:05 AM

Thanks to all the UK folks who are willing to inform us of alternatives.

There are people listening.


btw
What you don't know is the Trump overload we are suffering over here. You know nothing about the constancy, the intensity the overarching omnipresence. It is toxic it builds up it has to be expelled from the system. So stop saying shut up about it. That is unhealthy for all of us over here. You can ignore it, shut your eyes, we can't as long as we are awake.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 09:20 AM

Dave to argue against NRA jargon is no more rational than the NRA jargon itself which is irrational. Repeating the senseless NRA jargon is just a repeated hypnosis phrase pure and simple. It needn't make sense, it only needs to be parroted and repeated.

You would think arguing sense to the senseless would create a correction in thought but it doesn't work that way.
no pun intended but you have to fight fire with fire.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 09:29 AM

Dave the Gnome,

You have missed the point.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
from Iain's clicky:
" Scotland has about 75,000 licensed firearms and shotguns. England and Wales even more, with about 1.8 million in circulation. And these guns have impact."

so, UK 1,875.000 firearms, 30 homicides by guns 0.000016 killed per gun
USA 300,000,000+ firearms 5100 homicides by guns <0.000017 killed per gun

----------------------------------------------------------------------

The number of people murdered PER GUN in the UK is not much different from the number per gun murdered in the US.


from Backwoodsman:"Here in the UK, as Acorn says, gun-licensing is very strictly controlled, and the use to which a gun can be put is very limited. So there are comparatively few guns held by civilians, compared to the US."


Yet there are just about as many murders PER GUN in the UK as in the USA- So obviously all that careful vetting of gun owners has no effect.

" It is the legislation that allows free access to firearms to anyone and therefore to more nutcases."

The PRESENT UK legislation allows the SAME PERCENTAGE of nutcases ( out of all allowed gun owners) to get the guns- They restrict ALL access to firearms, but do NOT reduce the murders PER GUN.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 09:39 AM

Present (EXISTING) US policies have produced less than 0.000017 murders per gun.

Present UK policies have produced 0.000016 murders per gun.




In the US:

ONLY confiscation ( ie, removal of the 2nd amendment) would reduce the number of guns, but only from legal owners, those LEAST likely to commit murder.

This would INCREASE the number of murders PER GUN.

The problem is NOT that we have too many guns, but that we have too many criminals.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Stu
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 09:44 AM

"So obviously all that careful vetting of gun owners has no effect."

This crap annoys the living bejesus out of me because it's another sleight of hand and is dishonest, which is a huge part of the problem. Contemptible.

From here: How many people are killed by guns a year in Great Britain?


Last year there were 51 gun homicides in the UK.
The population is 62M about 1/5th that of the US.

So if the US had the same level of gun crime, that would give an annual death toll of 254.

You've got too many guns and that is why your country is killing innocents by the hundreds yearly.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 10:12 AM

No point missed at all. The figures quoted are wrong. Directly from This article.

Gun violence in the United States results in tens of thousands of deaths and injuries annually.[1] In 2013, there were 73,505 nonfatal firearm injuries (23.2 injuries per 100,000 U.S. citizens),[2][3] and 33,636 deaths due to "injury by firearms" (10.6 deaths per 100,000 U.S. citizens).[4] These deaths consisted of 11,208 homicides,[5] 21,175 suicides,[4] 505 deaths due to accidental or negligent discharge of a firearm, and 281 deaths due to firearms use with "undetermined intent".[4] Of the 2,596,993 total deaths in the US in 2013, 1.3% were related to firearms.[1][6] The ownership and control of guns are among the most widely debated issues in the country.

So, the quoted figure of 5100 is well under the number of murders and massively under the total number of deaths. 11,000 by homicide alone. Almost another thousand due to accidents and undetermined causes. So your less than 0.000017 murders per gun is a massive under representation and if we put in the true figures - IE 12000 deaths / number of guns you have double that of the UK. I would also cast doubts on the number of guns given in both cases as well. The number of illegal, non-registered guns have not been been taken into account.

This does not account for the number of injuries either. I would postulate that the number of injuries due to firearms is going to be massively higher by proportion in the US than the UK.

As Stu has already explained, there are just too many guns and they are all to often in the hands of people that should not have them.

Scary fact for you here.

For every 100 people in the UK there are less than 7 guns. In the USA that is 112 guns per 100 people.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 10:33 AM

"they are all to often in the hands of people that should not have them."

The numbers show that the UK has NO SUBSTANTIALLY BETTER rate of murders per gun than the US has. Yes, we have more guns, but you have as many murders PER GUN as wee do- AFTER ALL YOUR vetting of owners.



"If we are to remain a nation where the right to bear arms is constitutionally protected, we're going to have to live with the possibility, maybe even the probability, that legally-obtained weapons will sometimes be used for a bad purpose by insane or evil people. If we want to be a country where gun violence is reduced drastically, then we will also have to be one where ownership of legal weapons is restricted to a privileged few rather than a right all citizens enjoy.

Those who support the Second Amendment must be honest about the price of the liberty they cherish. But those who wish to deprive us of that right must also be honest about what they want. The Second Amendment exists because the Founders believed giving the monopoly on firearms to the state was a prescription for tyranny. Is that a risk most of us wish to run?

Many Americans do wish to relegate the Second Amendment to the trash heap of history. Perhaps many would like to trade some of their liberty for fewer worries about gun violence. But if liberals want to talk about gun control, rather than more disingenuous nonsense about background checks, that's the argument they should be forced to make.

Anything short of that is a waste of our time. Until the left directly addresses their desire to change the Constitution and end gun rights altogether, their rhetoric about gun violence should be ignored."

http://thefederalist.com/2017/10/04/gun-control-debate-pointless-liberals-admit-want-repeal-second-amendment/


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 10:47 AM

In the WashPo. One of the more pro-gun control media- they stated that the only purpose for the Glock was for criminals ( just check to see what most police are carrying now).



-------------------------------------------------------------------
I used to think gun control was the answer. My research told me otherwise.

By Leah Libresco

October 3, 2017 at 3:02 PM


"Before I started researching gun deaths, gun-control policy used to frustrate me. I wished the National Rifle Association would stop blocking common-sense gun-control reforms such as banning assault weapons, restricting silencers, shrinking magazine sizes and all the other measures that could make guns less deadly.

Then, my colleagues and I at FiveThirtyEight spent three months analyzing all 33,000 lives ended by guns each year in the United States, and I wound up frustrated in a whole new way. We looked at what interventions might have saved those people, and the case for the policies I'd lobbied for crumbled when I examined the evidence. The best ideas left standing were narrowly tailored interventions to protect subtypes of potential victims, not broad attempts to limit the lethality of guns.

.........

By the time we published our project, I didn't believe in many of the interventions I'd heard politicians tout. I was still anti-gun, at least from the point of view of most gun owners, and I don't want a gun in my home, as I think the risk outweighs the benefits. But I can't endorse policies whose only selling point is that gun owners hate them. Policies that often seem as if they were drafted by people who have encountered guns only as a figure in a briefing book or an image on the news."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/opinions/i-used-to-think-gun-control-was-the-answer-my-research-told-me-otherwise/2017/10


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 10:47 AM

The numbers show that the UK has NO SUBSTANTIALLY BETTER rate of murders per gun than the US has.

I have just shown that it is substantially better in the UK. The figures you provided previously were wrong. You are flogging a dead horse here. Probably shooting it with a semi automatic...

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 10:53 AM

Stu,

All those carefully checked UK gun owners commit JUST AS MANY MURDERS PER GUN as the gun owners in the US.

The flaw is in the people , not the tool.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 10:58 AM

Dave,

Homicide is not murder- I used murder as that is what the UK figures are based on.

If a policeman kills someone legally, that is NOT a murder


You have not shown the figures I gave ( 2012, by the way- back in Obama's enlightened administration) are incorrect. If they went up the next year, ( still under Obama) maybe that indicates that the Liberals have a weak grasp on effective law enforcement.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: olddude
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 11:10 AM

Actually bruces stats have merit, however we need to get rid of the gun show loophole, assault weapons don't really have a place for sportsmen or hunting. To easy to convert. Now america is a big place. If you grew up in the mountains like I did that deer meat was important for food. Many places especially alaska is the same way. They depend on hunting. We have some really good gun laws but loopholes that negate many of them. Let's fix that. You could put many European countries inside one of our local counties. It's addifferent nation. Fix the loopholes but new laws won't work until it's addressed


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 11:22 AM

"Paris, where 130 individuals were gunned down in 2015, has some of the world's most stringent firearms restrictions. So does Chicago, where 519 persons have been murdered already this year.

The humane response to the tragedy visited upon Las Vegas is not legislation but consolation, for both victims and survivors. Politicians are unable to stop mass murder because the black heart responsible for the finger that pulls the trigger occupies a dark place beyond the reach of reason. If law alone could govern the actions of mankind, a law comprised of only four short words would have been enough: "Thou shalt not kill.""


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: olddude
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 11:25 AM

When I was hunting in alaska, I checked my rifle and handgun at the Tsa as required, they make sure it's uploaded, slap a firearms tag on it, off to alaska. In alaska, show them my id get my guns. When I came back home, my airport tossed them on the baggage conveyor belt with all the other luggage so anyone could have stolen them while I was taking a piss in the restroom. I climbed all over Tsa ass about it and they said well its up to each airport how to handle it... Fucking nuts stuff like this negates all gun laws


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: olddude
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 11:32 AM

NY has the toughest gun control laws in the nation and they throw my weapons on a public baggage claim... Thank god no one took them. Alaska has no gun control and they took great care with them... It's all nuts


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 11:36 AM

In general, the more Liberal a state is, the more strict the gun laws- and the less consistent the enforcement.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 11:42 AM

Olddude in travelling to and from our hunting area the guns have to be in a locked/secure case (Two different locks, two different keys), the bolt must be removed from the rifle and carried separately, the same applies to any ammunition. As we travel as a group the from one person's rifle goes in someone else in the groups check-in luggage so should anyone read the tag on the rifle case, and then pilfer the check-in luggage of the same person - the rifle is still useless.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: olddude
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 12:09 PM

Ours just have to be unloaded, no ammo, that has to be separate and inspected by Tsa.
I really liked alaska having to show your id and baggage claims tag to get them. Why in the world some airports toss them on the baggage conveyor is crazy to me. I like your idea of pulling all the bolts, I will do that also from now on great idea


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: olddude
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 12:11 PM

Oh ours also has to be in double locked cases


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: frogprince
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 12:16 PM

Contrasting deaths by country per-gun-owned might begin to make sense
if and when it becomes probable that a mass killer who owns 18 or 118 guns will use each one of those guns in a killing incident.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 12:21 PM

You mean like in the present case, with 23 weapons used?

Isn't that the topic of this thread?


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 12:25 PM

Gun supporters;

please make it known to all of us if you support any reasonable law or action to diminish mass shooting attacks.
just yes or no is fine

There is a tide coming in from many gun supporters that is carrying some reasonable change agreement. Is there a crack of sunshine behind the door of never change a thing?


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 12:45 PM

The BS about the population being armed in order to fight the government is an absolute bag of bollocks. I'd just love to see all those gun-nut, redneck crackpots' faces when the tanks, F-16s, F-22s, attack helicopters, and drones start setting their fat, sweaty arses on fire. Anyone who believes that a disorganised rabble, consisting of 'hunters' and wannabe-Rambos, could mount any sort of meaningful challenge to the Armed Forces of the US really is deluded to the point of insanity, and should never be allowed within ten miles of a fire-arm.

The 2nd Amendment, in today's terms, is therefore meaningless and redundant, and should be removed from the constitution (or amended in such a way as to make it clear that being allowed to possess firearms is a privilege, not a right and, like all privileges, it cannot be demanded! it must be earned.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 12:50 PM

my simple take on this...

reasonable American gun owners will be prepared to accept fair pragmatic compromises...

Unreasonable American gun owners will be prepared to go down in a blaze of glory in stand-off battles with law enforcement officers...

Any new much needed laws and restrictions will be near impossible to implement and enforce.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 12:56 PM

Gotta keep trying though, PFR!


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: frogprince
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 12:58 PM

Further snowflakey/libtard reflections...

"Arms", by definition, is not limited to hand held firearms; the dictionary includes "ordinance" and "artillery". Why aren't there more real patriots out there with the guts to insist on their rights to the GOOD stuff ?
If the point of the second amendment is to protect the individual against his government, it isn't worth the...powder to blow it up with ?... unless there are, at the very least, collectives of like-minded civilians who possess levels of weaponry comparable to what the government can bring to bear.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: frogprince
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 01:01 PM

And, while I was typing, Backwoodsman beat me to the point very effectively.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 01:04 PM

I've watched too many American movies and satellite TV documentaries on Preppers and near future USA civil wars...

...not forgetting military led coups backed by local militias... 🙄


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: olddude
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 01:07 PM

Punky we do have no shortage of crazy also for sure.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: mg
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 01:16 PM

Never be to quick to write off disorganized rabble.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: olddude
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 01:18 PM

Here is another good example. A sawed off short barrel show gun is illegal without a special license that is difficult and expensive toget. HHowever, you can buy one directly from a gun company absolutely legal with no special license if it has a pistol grip and no shoulder stock.. Why, because the law says to be a shotgun it has to have a shoulder fired stock. How do I know, I own one. Great for walking through the brush in grizzly bear country but a bad guy would use it for other things.. Crazy see what I mean


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: olddude
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 01:23 PM

By the way, could can't make one, it's illegal but if it is factory unaltered it is a firearm and not a shotgun.. Insane shit, see why we bitch about more laws


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 01:27 PM

"please make it known to all of us if you support any reasonable law or action to diminish mass shooting attacks"

1. Show me the law and tell me how it reduces the risk of mass shootings.

"just yes or no is fine"

Not reasonable- "Have you stopped beating your wife- yes or no?"

I would support new laws IF I have reason to think that

1. They would be enforced fairly.

2. They would be effective in doing what they are put in place to do.

3. They would inflict less damage than the actions they are trying to prevent.
Obviously, a government search and seizure from ALL homes, places of business, and private property of ALL firearms and ammunition would reduce the chance of mass shootings- but the riots that would occur might well kill a lot more than the shootings.
But then, if we can't keep 11 million illegal aliens from entering the country, how can we keep out the ( then illegal) firearms? We need a bigger wall, to prevent re-arming of those who desire guns ( present criminals and the new criminals that would resist the confiscation.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 01:27 PM

About laws:

Owning fully automatic weapons is 'mostly' illegal,as is converting a semi to an auto....

But the $50 kit to DO the conversion IS legal... as are the "bump stocks" he used which allow 'almost' automatic fire by using the gun's own recoil to fire faster than anyone can actually pull the trigger.

So...any ideas where **laws** that don't actually ban guns could be applied? (we all know that banning or confiscating guns would be essentially impossible as things stand)

The Republicans were about to introduce legislation to allow certain types of special ammo designed to penetrate armor.... any ideas about that? (they are now 'waiting' on that and a couple other more 'liberal', NRA approved, laws.

   Do the math.... more population means more stresses in society and more mental instability. With guns legally available to almost everyone until their instability surfaces in ways which make headlines, the total number of dangerous, unstable people with guns WILL rise. Add to that recruits to terrorism, anti-abortion radicals and just plain, 'normal' people who "feel the need for protection" but have limited skills..... any ideas how that might affect a few sad statistics in the future?

I am no expert on weaponry, but I can read, reason and do math. I don't like what I see coming.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 01:36 PM

...even before this latest devastating massacre..
I've been up late at night idly watching youtube compilations on "gun fails"...

.. and these are only the sanitized videos where the fukwits actually survived...


Scary to consider the 'stars' of these videos may mostly be legal gun owners...


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 01:46 PM

And unless we get rid of propane, LNG , and natural gas, there will always be the risk of FAE bombs.

Gasoline is another high explosive compound. Fuel oil and fertilizer,and a number of household chemicals as well. Then there are the home-made chemical weapons that any high school student could make. I guess we need to control access to all of these things, since they present a danger in the hands of the mentally unstable.

Or we could try to raise a population that does not consider mass murder
as a reasonable way to resolve differences.

Naw, let em just riot and tear down what they don't like, and beat up those who have views they disagree with.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 01:59 PM

The UK is fast to respond with new public safety prohibition laws.

The latest proposal is to ban sales of sulphuric acid to under 18s...

USA libertarians may consider the UK to be an intolerable draconian state,
but we are used to it, and just get on with our lives....

What is interesting, is that whenever occasional police amnesties are announced for handing in knives and illegal firearms,
surprisingly there seems to be a very positive response
and the resulting voluntarily handed in stashes of weapons are prominently displayed on TV news as they are stacked up for destruction...


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 02:03 PM

"
"You never want a serious crisis to go to waste," Rahm Emanuel, then a congressman, said shortly after the 2008 election. "What I mean by that is that it's an opportunity to do things you think you could not do before."

So it is with gun control. Every slaughter is an opening to capitalize on grief and hope the public gives government license to do what it previously rejected.

Of course, not all slaughters are exploited equally. Chicago, where Emanuel is now mayor, is on a historic killing spree, with more than 500 murders already this year.

Chicago has an ongoing mass murder problem, even as it has among the nation's strictest gun control laws, to little effect. Yet the Democratic media rarely mention the slaughter there or in Baltimore or Detroit, all of which take place under Democratic mayors with very restrictive gun laws.

Murder carried out daily by illegal handguns, and involving mostly the death of black males living under liberal mayors, doesn't motivate the national media. Could it be that there is no political advantage to be had, and thus no business interest in the carnage?"


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: olddude
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 02:10 PM

Bill, doesn't cost 50 bucks, give me ten minutes on a lathe... Insane shit for sure


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: olddude
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 02:13 PM

No more dumb ass laws that accomplish nothing, fix it loopholes and repair the broken ones that do no good for anyone including us sportsmen


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: olddude
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 02:18 PM

Want an assault rifle that is of no use except for people, 300 bucks on the net... Fucking nuts


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 02:24 PM

Kampervan,

"Punt guns were used in the 19th century to hunt waterfowl. It's still possible to pick them up second hand."

Used to be used here on the Chesapeake Bay- they are illegal here now, and considered WMD ( anything over a specified diameter. ) I think the 26mm flare pistols are about the largest diameter legal firearms. Some muzzle-loading cannon are available, but require licensing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 02:29 PM

Olddude,

It is not an assault rifle. That would require it to be selective fire ( capable of full automatic)

An assault rifle is a selective-fire rifle that uses an intermediate cartridge and a detachable magazine.[1][2][3][4][5] Assault rifles were first used during World War II.[6][7][8] Though Western nations were slow to accept the assault rifle concept, by the end of the 20th century they had become the standard weapon in most of the world's armies, replacing full-powered rifles and sub-machine guns in most roles.[8] Examples include the StG 44, AK-47 and the M16 rifle.[8]


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 02:45 PM

"..Gasoline is another high explosive compound. Fuel oil and fertilizer,and a number of household chemicals as well. Then there are the home-made chemical weapons that any high school student could make. I guess we need to control access to all of these things, since they present a danger in the hands of the mentally unstable. "

False equivalency!!! As is throwing cars, hammers, knives and bug spray into that ridiculous line of non-reason.

ALL those items have many normal uses beyond 'possible' crazy ones. Guns have a very limited set of uses.... and the valid ones do NOT require high capacity magazines and rapid fire, except for police & military uses. Yet we allow many restrictions and registrations on auto registration and driving ...and even fertilizer is being restricted... and it is pretty difficult for the average nut to cause mass casualties with stuff from a high-school chem lab.

   I am so tired of the convoluted logic being used to defend a vaguely phrased 2nd amendment which was written when single-shot muzzle loaders were the standard and the need for a "well-maintained militia" meant something VERY different. If you had shown the founding fathers an AK-47, they would have rephrased that amendment VERY carefully!!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: olddude
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 02:54 PM

Bruce my point is it can be easily converted.. You are technically correct but once modified so am I


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 03:20 PM

Olddude,

And the modification is illegal- so what use are MORE LAWS? ONLY a law-abiding person would NOT do something because it is illegal- and a person who commits murder is NOT a law-abiding person.




BillD,

If the founding fathers had known of amplifiers, radio, television, and the internet. the FIRST amendment would have been different as well. Where is YOUR flatbed , hand powered press? Where is your speaker's stand with NO microphone? And the idea of an audience greater than within physical hearing distance?...

Any modification due to technology either requires amendment OR must apply to ALL of the amendments. Would you state that the fourth amendment would NOT prohibit x-rays or MRI without consent, since that technology did not exist at the time?

Either "the right of the people " applies to all the items it is included in ( freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom to possess weapons, etc) or it is not valid for any.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 03:28 PM

please make it known to all of us if you support any reasonable law or action to diminish mass shooting attacks.
just yes or no is fine



no one has answered, let me be the first

yes


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 03:29 PM

BillD,
"it is pretty difficult for the average nut to cause mass casualties with stuff from a high-school chem lab."

I beg to differ- but will refrain from specifying the exact chemicals used.

Nitroglycerin
phosgene
mustard gas
chlorine gas


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 03:37 PM

BEFORE I agree that additional laws are needed, please tell me how they will actually produce the desired effect.


Or should I look at the previous attempts when laws WERE passed to STOP GUN VIOLENCE?

"For the first weekend of October, the Chicago Tribune reported, ?At least 32 people were shot over the weekend, including a man killed along the Chicago River on the Northwest Side and a 13-year-old boy wounded while riding his bike in Little Village on the West Side, according to police. Between Friday afternoon and early Monday, at least four people were killed and 28 others wounded, police said.?

The prior weekend in the Windy City brought a grim milestone of 500 homicides, so far, for 2017.

For some reason, Mrs. Clinton and the other liberals and Hollywood celebrities tweeting their outrage and demands for gun control have been silent about the massacres in Chicago. Perhaps because they were successful there and ?gun control? was achieved. Now that it failed, they would have to confront issues like gangs, MS-13 and drugs. Confronted with the fraud of the liberal solution of gun control, the only answer is to not look, move on and abandon the victims."


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: mg
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 03:42 PM

i am for laws preventing mass shootings.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 03:46 PM

"please make it known to all of us if you support any reasonable law or action to diminish mass shooting attacks.
just yes or no is fine"


The government here in the UK has done precisely that on several occasions. We had two mass-shootings, the first time, in August 1987, using assault-type weapons, the second, in March 1996, using hand-guns. Our government rapidly took strong action, placing very close restrictions on the ownership of those types of weapons, and there have been no further such incidents.

In view of the above, and on the absolutely undeniable evidence that the average rate of deaths by gunshot based on population in the US exceeds the average rate by population in the UK by a factor of 28 (12,000/70*6 per annum), I vote "Yes".


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 03:48 PM

I am for laws preventing murders of innocents.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 03:49 PM

12,000/(70*6)


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: mg
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 03:54 PM

more questions...wouldn't you think in an era of terrorism, mass shootings, etc. there would be cameras all over the venue area, pointed everywhere? Wouldn't there be men/women with binoculars stationed here and there? Are there ways of shortening response time? Are there ways to tell people to flee the site without causing stampedes? Are there ways to tell people in a hotel to either flee or shelter in place, depending on their location? What preparations do we know of in terms of hotel and venue and what were the reactions?


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 03:55 PM

In the incidents I mention above, the victims of the first were residents of Hungerford going about their daily business, the victims of the second were children in primary school. All innocents, I'd say.

I'm for laws preventing all murders. Murder is murder no matter who the victim is - the law makes no judgment of the victims' moral status.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 03:55 PM

Backwoodsman

0.000016 vs less than 0.000017 killed per gun.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 03:58 PM

Backwoodsman,

your 12,000 includes criminals killed in the act of committing crimes- I stated the difference between homicides and murders.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 04:09 PM

"On June 7, 2010 -- about a year and a half into the Barack Obama administration -- the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives issued an opinion letter, giving the go-ahead to an after-market accessory that allows the user to ?bump fire? a semi-automatic rifle.

A company called Slide Fire had earlier sent its patented replacement shoulder stock to ATF?s Firearms Technology Branch, asking for an evaluation of the device.

The ATF, in reply, wrote: ?Your letter advises that the stock (referenced in this reply as a ?bump stock?) is intended to assist persons whose hands have limited mobility to ?bump fire? an AR-15 type rifle.?

The device replaces the factory stock and grip. The replacement stock moves back and forth with the gun's recoil, allowing it to fire rapidly and continuously as the trigger repeatedly is bumped into the shooter?s finger. A switch allows the user to select semi-automatic fire (one shot for each trigger pull) or the more rapid ?bump fire.?

According to the ATF?s June 2010 letter: ?The stock has no automatically functioning mechanical parts or springs and performs no automatic mechanical function when installed. In order to use the device, the shooter must apply constant forward pressure with the non-shooting hands and constant rearward pressure with the shooting hand. Accordingly, we find that the ?bump stock? is a firearm part and is not regulated as a firearm under the Gun Control Act or the National Firearms Act.?

Slide Fire has posted a copy of the approval letter on its website.

The company also notes, ?By definition, our current rifle stocks are not adjustable stocks or trigger manipulation devices.?

An ATF agent told CBS News that the Las Vegas shooter had equipped 12 of the rifles found in his hotel room with bump stocks.

Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-Calif.) said on Tuesday that she intends to introduce legislation to close what she calls the ?automatic weapon loophole,? and some Republicans have indicated they may be open to the idea of banning after-market devices that allow semi-automatic weapons to simulate automatic fire.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 04:37 PM

Stop being disingenuous, you're fooling no-one. Your 'deaths per gun' is completely meaningless unless no person owns more than one gun. Especially true if, as I suspect, you're a proponent of the NRA mantra that 'guns don't kill people, people kill people'. My personal take on that piece of bullshit is that 'people with guns kill people'.

The statistic that actually is relevant is the relative number of gun-deaths per year, pro-rated by population-size.

And a gun-death is a gun-death, irrespective of who the victim is. You might be interested to know that there have been a total of 68 fatal police shootings in the past 27 years in the UK - an average of less than 3 per year. How does that stack up against US numbers?

Source - http://www.inquest.org.uk/statistics/fatal-police-shootings


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 05:02 PM

Beardedbruce. I have disputed your statistics. You answered by making some point about murder and homicide being different. Try asking the grieving relatives of the dead if they think it makes a difference.

But that is far from the point anyway. Even if your statistics were right all they go to prove is that the more guns there are, the more deaths there are. Which is what most people are trying to say. Restricting the availability of guns restricts the possibility of them being used in the way we are talking about.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Iains
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 06:31 AM

It is all very well introducing new laws but criminals do have a reputation for ignoring them. Legislation that can successfully combat this glaring anomaly would be most welcome.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 07:34 AM

As I've just pointed out on another forum, laws of themselves are useless. They are just words on paper. It's the enforcement of laws that produces results. Firearms laws in the UK are firmly enforced, and there are severe penalties for misuse of firearms, whether legally-held or otherwise.

When mass-shootings took place here, the government took strong action. The prudence of those actions is borne out by the fact that there has not been a mass-shooting incident here since 1996 - twenty-one years.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 08:01 AM

An interesting piece from the days when the US had an intelligent human being for President, instead of a ginger, combed-over, pussy-grabbing wazzock...

https://www.facebook.com/OccupyDemocrats/videos/1724338700992510/


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 08:15 AM

A perceptive commentary...


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 08:32 AM

So how many former 'No votes to reasonable laws for guns have changed to Yes?


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 08:34 AM

Never miss a chance to lampoon stoopid American gun-nuts...


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 08:45 AM

I have no way of knowing, Don. I guess it's difficult to change people who, since birth, have been psychologically-modified to genuinely believe that they're safer with guns, and that everybody has the right to own as many as they wish. It's so deeply-ingrained in their collective psyche, they cannot begin to conceive of countries which are relatively gun-free, with very few gun-killings, and where people feel safe.

Sad. Very sad.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 09:49 AM

Backwoodsman's links are greater than all the worldly whoop dedoos to the power of 10.

I noticed the number of times gun advocates repeated NRA jargon without even knowing they were doing it. That is a tip off of a form of brainwashing especially when the jargon makes no sense or logic.

You know like the jargon robomatic pointed out; "guns don't
kill people..."


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 10:20 AM

"guns don't kill people..."

.. what.. unless they are used as bludgeons...???


The only guns that can't kill people are guns that don't exist, were never manufactured in the first place, or decommissioned and irreparably destroyed...

Otherwise, all guns are so obviously potential death inflictors..

Bullets might not be as deadly if you had to throw them at folks you want to kill.... ??


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 01:48 PM

Exactly. "Guns don't kill people [nonsense] = People kill people [true]"

Repeat a thousand times, blur nonsense with truth in catch phrases and people are indoctrinated more than they suspect. My observations are backed up by neuroscience today.

Did you know the data on Mudcat is backed up in the Library of Congress?


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 01:58 PM

If guns are unfairly maligned blameless inanimate objects, innocent of all killings..
Then maybe the blame should be traced back to the gun manufacturers, sellers, and propagandists who enable and facilitate gun abusers to accomplish all their lethal handiwork...?????


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 02:16 PM

"all guns are so obviously potential death inflictors"

As are ALL motor vehicles, and all medications, and all knives, and all stones. Even golf clubs and baseball bats have been know to kill- so the potential is certainly there as well

And of course those evils such as gasoline ( used in napalm) and nuclear power ( radiation and bombs!)

And more people die each year due to H2O than anything else.


You have not established that the ONLY purpose of guns is murder- there are JUSTIFIED reasons for shooting people (stopping criminals), uses such as hunting ( for food or safety) target shooting-(an Olympic sport, unlike guitar playing), collecting and historical research.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: olddude
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 02:30 PM

Nra just released a statement they support additional laws on bump stocks. They are on a roll one right decision,,


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 02:33 PM

"Anti-gun activists would like you to think that gun violence is a growing problem in the United States as alpha males flock to gun shows to buy weapons. But this is completely untrue. Gun violence has decreased almost equally with the increase in gun ownership. States with higher gun ownership don?t have more murders. Not to mention, since 1993, the gun homicide rate has fallen by nearly 50 percent, despite recent increases in some urban areas.

This decrease in gun violence is a statistic gun control activists often bury because it doesn?t fit their narrative. Regardless of facts, they continue to spread misinformation, resulting in many people thinking we?re awash in gun violence. A Pew Research survey in 2013 found ?56% of Americans believe gun crime is higher than 20 years ago and only 12% think it is lower.?"


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: olddude
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 02:36 PM

Also, regardless of what anyone else thinks. I owned guns for hunting and target and defense my entire 65 years. None of them ever came to life to threaten myself or anyone else.. Sorry but you are wrong. That being said having a machine gun that is not called a machine gun does give us gun owners pause as to what the hell someone is up to. It ain't no hunting rifle nor target and your home defense doesn't need a machine gun unless you are a drug dealer or something.. So yeah, ban the bumper things and do it quickly


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 02:38 PM

Yeah - looks like the sensible wing of the NRA are having to face up to reality, no matter how grudgingly...



btw.. beardybruce - when have I ever said the only use of guns is for murder...?????

I've stated frankly in previous mudcat gun threads that I am a UK lefty liberal who actually wants to own and shoot guns;
but accept the law of the land and my own limited finances
do not enable my responsible pursuit of such a hobby...


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: olddude
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 02:45 PM

Some body will next come up with a flame thrower that is not a flame thrower because it has no back pack tanks... Ugh then all of us hunter's bitch because everyone wants tougher laws to restrict sportsmen.. Well if this add on circumventing the system shit with no hunting or sports purposes would stop maybe people would not scream enough and I don't blame them for lumping it all together


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 02:52 PM

https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2017/10/03/jimmy-kimmels-tears-arent-helping-las-vegas-victims-decreasing-gun-violence-ka



Well, punky, you could join the vast number of citizens of other countries that move to the USA to have the advantages of OUR laws.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 02:58 PM

.. No thanks.. the UK may have it's problems and deficiencies..
but at least our local right-wing bonehead thugs don't tend to habitually carry guns out to bars and pubs... ??


[hit and miss today if emojis are posting...]


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 03:01 PM

Dan, I have no issue at all with guns for hunting. In fact I have often said that hunting is a much more moral way of getting meat than farming animals. Unfortunately we are not talking guns for hunting here. When did you ever use an automatic or semi-automatic to hunt? Why does anyone need to own 47 (or whatever number it was) high power firearms? We are talking about the nutcases here. Limit the access to such firearms. Screen people who want them. Make them take safety and psychological tests every year. But something needs to be done.

If Beardedbruce is correct and the number of murders per firearm is the same across the pond then surely reducing the number of firearms will reduce the number of murders. There are flaws in Bruce's stats but he does make a valid point and it does demonstrate that the big difference is simply the number of firearms available.

I just hope that something does happen before another tragedy occurs.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: olddude
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 03:03 PM

If you want to shoot a machine gun go to a class lll range under a certified instructor pay the fee and shoot away. Or you could have close ties with a sheriff swat team and go out with them on a training site.. Or spend 30k and get the proper license.. There are people who just hack the system and us sportsmen get the flack after


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: olddude
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 03:36 PM

And our lawmakers who never seen a weapon ever don't ask people who know them. They pass half ass do no good rules that are full of holes. How about this machine gun laws, any weapon with an initial design that includes automatic fire. Had they done that, no ar15 no ak 47 but no some semi auto is ok in weapon design for also full auto and easy to convert even without a bump


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: olddude
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 05:09 PM

Dave agree completely


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 05:17 PM

Two arseholes arguing about gun control


Take yer pick....


Though one does seem to be reciting from exactly the same set script as BB is in this thread...?????


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 09:52 PM

BWL was the first to foresee this tragedy having more transformative impact upon Congress than all previous school shootings.
Dan has expressed integrity I wish all Congressmen would acquire.
Bruce is more defensive than a suspect perp.
I was coincidentally closer to this latest last shooter than I initially knew. I was in Chicago when Poddard rented a room to scout the Lololpalooza rock concert and of course I have been to Fenway Park like most folks when another concert was being looked at by Poddard..

Also by coincidental factors I was interviewed by the FBI regarding the unibomber case and as I have said before I walked into an FBI office in Buffalo to tell them how hijackings would shake this nation to the core and how extraordinary measures were needed and then I told them what they were. Since this was several years prior to 9-11 I was of course dismissed as a harmless loon.

To thine own self be true. Well I have been even when it is embarrassing. However it doesn't take a psychic or a coincidental interloper to predict someone today is out to break the record of 59 and shoot for 60 to 100 deaths from the next mass shooting...

Unless something substantial is done.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Oct 17 - 01:41 AM

"Unless something substantial is done."

Don't keep it to yourself Donuel - please tell all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Oct 17 - 05:26 AM

actual gun control


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Stu
Date: 06 Oct 17 - 06:01 AM

"The humane response to the tragedy visited upon Las Vegas is not legislation but consolation, for both victims and survivors."

If someone supports the ownership of these weapons, maintains their right to have them and use them then they are, in small apart, responsible for the deaths of all people killed in this manner; that is the situation you perpetuate and maintain. That is what collective responsibility is about, that is what upholding a constitutional amendment that is anachronistic and downright dangerous means.

If I were a person being offered such consolation, I'd tell the person crying their crocodile tears to act with an ounce of integrity and then I'd tell them to fuck off.

"the big difference is simply the number of firearms available."

The big difference is the culture of violence that the USA is mired in.

As I say above, these things happen because a large number of people think the right to own a gun (outside of sport or hunting) is more important than the lives of their fellow citizens and their lives is a price worth paying. That is the plain and honest truth if it. If it wasn't, then the guns would be in bins and that would be it.

Like olddude says, it's another nation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Oct 17 - 07:03 AM

IF hearts pouring out, if hopes and prayers diminished the death and suffering of innocents
or saved even one person - pray away.
But they do not.
Actual legislation will help the numbers of massacres slide down.

A slippery slope is good to enable to help the number of wounded and killed slide downhill.

Like the best medicine in the world it will not save everyone from disease, but it helps the ones it helps.

Let it be
Let it help


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Oct 17 - 07:16 AM

If the statistics are correct and there are more guns in circulation than there are people then "actual gun control" is not going to do anything. The gun statistics are for registered weapons I take it? Those intending to do harm with a gun will find the means to do so.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Oct 17 - 07:24 AM

medicine will do something for those it can help.
You Are Correct it will not save everyone


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Stu
Date: 06 Oct 17 - 09:22 AM

It won't, but making it harder to get a gun is a start. I have no idea where I'd get a gun from (even a legal one), and it'd be a nightmare here in the UK if anyone could stroll into Tesco's and buy an AK47. Way too many dickheads about.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Oct 17 - 09:35 AM

"I have no idea where I'd get a gun from (even a legal one)"

A fairly close relative was a legal shotgun owner.
He kept them responsibly in a proper secure locked cabinet.
One day he decided to saw the barrel of one of his guns to make it easier and more comfortable to blow his heart and lungs out.

At the time it would have seemed bad form to ask the family if I could have his guns...

Don't know what eventually happened to them....???


So, even passing rigorous and restrictive UK gun ownership tests and checks, can't account for an individuals later states of mind and crisis....

Fortunately he took his problems out on himself, and not anyone else...


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Mrrzy
Date: 06 Oct 17 - 12:46 PM

Wait, what, Donuel? You said a while back "Some Americans think its OK like Mrrzy said." - when did I ever, anywhere, on any thread, say anything about any part of this being OK?


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Iains
Date: 06 Oct 17 - 02:28 PM

After the Dunblane primary school shooting politicians had been driven by a need to show they were doing something but their actions did nothing to stop the criminal use of guns. ?It never, never has any effect. The criminal underworld in England, the drug dealers ? have all got guns, but they are illegal guns,? Criminals do not have a problem with the legislation, they simply ignore it.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/mar/15/so-america-this-is-how-you-do-gun-control


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Oct 17 - 03:13 PM

Mrzzy never said he thought gun abuse was OK. You said that there were many gun nuts that accept the trade off between gun freedom and collateral gun damage. (it was OK with them), as I understood it, but not in those words.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Mrrzy
Date: 06 Oct 17 - 03:43 PM

That is a point, but I didn't make it. OK.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Oct 17 - 05:27 PM

*Thank you, I'm not OK, I had a horrible toothache last night.

(*an example of miscommuniction) ":^/ Its swollen but better now.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Oct 17 - 06:27 PM

From my perspective John Oliver won this gun debate


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: frogprince
Date: 06 Oct 17 - 08:09 PM

Commentary from a couple of our local "patriots" here. I'm not making these up or satirizing.

1. The liberal media keeps passing off all the casualties as shooting victims, when in fact many of them were victims of the stampede.

2. Look at what happened in England and Australia; they banned guns shooting deaths skyrocketed.

Just when I feel like I've heard it all...


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: olddude
Date: 06 Oct 17 - 09:18 PM

Stu is absolutely correct, sport and hunting is not the issue, whytthe hell do we allow weapons of war.. Some sports men will tell me they use their hunting. My response, get the proper rifle for hunting that is not the one any true hunter wants and illegal to hunt with in many states. We just don't need them. We have common sense laws on what is a street legal car. You can't have nitrous oxide tanks on the street. So why not weapons.. If you competition shoot, you use a bolt action rifle, same for hunting.. That shooter had one of the newer versions of a stoner rifle modified for full auto replacation.. Why... For war not sport


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: olddude
Date: 06 Oct 17 - 09:21 PM

A full auto 308 with a military sniper scope.. Bumper stock.. Ugh


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: olddude
Date: 06 Oct 17 - 09:34 PM

Every weapon i saw when they panned his roomwas a hhigh end weapon of war that would workwwell forany army . Yet he can legally buy them modify them and get on no one's radar... Fix the fucking laws


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: olddude
Date: 06 Oct 17 - 09:37 PM

But what I expect is a slew of new laws as always that only affect me and other deer hunters and do nothing to plug loopholes or make anyone safer.. That's what ny does


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Oct 17 - 09:40 PM

I'd say one of the main problems in the last decade has been the plethora of Cable channel documentaries and reality soaps making semi auto machine rifles look as sexy and desirable as they can...

I'm as guilty as anyone for enjoying my weekly fix of "Sons of Guns" for all the adrenaline rush speaker rattling gunfire and explosions...

But companies like Red Jacket made military style semi autos to appeal to the pockets of 'regular guys' who wanted the latest and best TV endorsed status symbol guns to show off to their drinking buddies,
and make as much recreational mayhem as possible blasting melons and water buckets etc
out in the back yards and woods....

Loud fast assault rifles to shoot up the cardboard cut outs of bin laden with a truck full of 6 pack beers...

Fun.. but stupidly socially irresponsible, and potentially deadly in the wrong hands

Like getting the loudest Marshall amp and Les Paul to rock out the neighbourhood from your garage...

or a mad customised harley, or muscle car..

Big brash toys for macho knucleheads.... ??


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Oct 17 - 10:02 PM

"A fully loaded auto, 308 with a military sniper scope.. Bumper stock"
What make of car is this and is it street legal? ;^)

sorry I should not be trite, there is nothin funny about masa shootings.
What is considered a mass shooting is four or more victims.

The elephant in the room are venues that could equal the kill numbers of Los Vegas. College games, NFL, Baseball, Central Park, Inauguration crowd etc.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Oct 17 - 10:44 PM

I have seen the NRA programming on cable that includes how to legally shoot someone and what you need to know legally.

I have spoken to managers at Giant food for a year regarding not carrying a single science magazine but displaying ten different GUN magazines. TO NO AVAIL btw there were lots of religious magazines.
This is a vendor's choice not a commercial choice.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 02:11 AM

Why is there a perceived need for the type of guns that olddude objects to? Two reasons, the wording of your second amendment and the rather mystifying truth that it would appear that Americans just simply do not trust their Government (If the Army and National Guard units have automatic or semi-automatic weapons, then I too must have those types of weapons to allow me to defend myself).

Make it harder to buy and own a gun? - Impossible in a country that already has more "licenced/registered" guns than people (112.2 guns for every 100 people in the country). The number of unlicenced and unregistered firearms will be staggering and among those you will have all the "war souvenirs" dating back to WWI.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Acme
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 11:00 AM

You have to start somewhere and they can do buybacks and get a bunch of them out of the way.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Mrrzy
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 11:29 AM

I had actually been wondering:

How many of the dead were shot, rather than died because there was a shooting going on (shrapnel, trampling, etc)?

How many of the injured were shot, rather than injured by shrapnel or from themselves or others trying to get away from the shooter?

I had a talk with an EMT gun enthusiast friend of mine, and he said you can't aim with a bumper stock, so we thought maybe of the injured (500ish) 150 shot 50 shrapnel 300 other injuries, and of the dead, higher proportion shot, maybe 45. Total guess. What do other gun or EMT experts say?


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 11:48 AM

Shot or trampled...???

dead is dead....

Nobody would have been killed or injured at that massacre if a finger had stayed off a trigger....


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 11:50 AM

Amen, PFR.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 11:51 AM

Of course you can try to start somewhere and the measures mentioned in passing by olddude would be a good start - how that goes about changing the perceived notion that one has to be capable of defending oneself against your own government and the mistrust and belief that your own government is going to attack you is going to be a "North face of the Eiger" type climb in a country riven by schisms, some of whom date back to it's conception.

So while you may make a start, realise the scale and magnitude of the problem (And that is only taking registered firearms into account) and resign yourselves to the fact that this sort of atrocity will be repeated in the future time and time again as if ever there was one - this is most definitely a case of shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 11:53 AM

Gravity waves IMPOSSIBLE
until you prove it
now LIGO scientists get the Nobel prize/

GUN Regulation will save lives IMPOSSIBLE?
To say impossible is an ignorant POV.

What do you hope to prove Mrzzy? Guns are not to blame but stampedes are?

I am thinking the note found in Poddard's room with numbers are declination and wind adjustment numbers.

Victims do not recount seeing tracer bullets but Poddard had them in the room. http://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/wireStory/thousands-mourn-slain-officer-las-vegas-probe-50319208

Some posts here seem to not know the difference between lies fake news propaganda and NRA jargon.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 12:04 PM

just face the facts.
its like i said about a hundred posts ago.
life and death is like that over in America, because that's the way they want it.

if they wanted it different, they have access to a free press and democratic process. if enough people actually cared, things would change.

they don't give a shit about the present situation. its their business. go there at your peril.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: olddude
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 12:35 PM

The wack jobs that say they need
Those weapons for fear of
government should not own a sharp stick.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 12:53 PM

Couldn't agree more olddude but fact is that the American's "holy of holy's" - your Constitution - has brought about a situation where those "wack jobs", as you call them, are guaranteed and have damned sight more effective weapons than sharp sticks, and there is absolutely nothing that over 235.5 million US Electors will do about altering or amending the rights enshrined in that document - you've had how many of these incidents now? Over how many years? And absolutely nothing has been done to ensure it will not happen again. That is the case and that will continue to be the case - because no-one must touch the Constitution.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 01:45 PM

The US has a rich history of adding and abolishing amendments.
That is the next DC debate.

He did not have tracers. The Gun Store was out of stock.

The Vegas hotels are used to allowing people to bring dozens of guns and ammo into their lobbies and rooms. Vegas is famous for having gun shows that sell guns privately without any regulations about 2 to 3 times a month. Vegas gun shows are considered entertainment and are as common as dirt. There are 2 major gun shows that are continuous and some minor ones outside the strip.

Hotels are happy to oblige.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 02:14 PM

"The US has a rich history of adding and abolishing amendments."

Really Donuel? Here is a brief summary of that "rich history" from 1789 to 2014:

11,539 proposed amendments have been introduced of which only 33 got anywhere. Of those 33 proposed amendments 27 have been ratified by the requisite number of states (But as two of these cancel one another out that only makes 25 amendments that are in force), 4 proposed amendments are technically open and still pending, one is closed and has failed by its own terms, and one is closed and has failed by the terms of the resolution proposing it. So in 225 years out of 11,539 amendments you've managed to pass 25 of them, or 0.23% of all those proposed - A rich history indeed - One of almost complete and utter inaction.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: olddude
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 03:25 PM

No Donald, but they will pass laws that will directly affect a deer hunter and we will obey, but won't stop a gun show where youcan get any mmilitary weapon without a bg check.. But if I want a box of 12 gage shotgun shells for huntinghere in ny , I have to buy them from a gun shop only. I guess it's to protect the bunnies I hunt. However go to a gun show and stock up on Teflon bullets or tracers for your fucking machine gun.. No problem Ok see my point


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: olddude
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 03:34 PM

They passed a safe act in this state that only affected hunters and target shooters and made the gun store's wealthy.. Now instead of buying a box of ammo to Site your gun in or target shoot, you reload your own so now people have power and a thousand rounds at home because it's cheaper.. Feel safer government. You don't know guns ask someone who does and will tell you what to fix in your zillion nothing laws


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: olddude
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 03:42 PM

Oh they announced in ny, you are legal to buy abbumper stock, but illegal now to have it on the ar gun.. I feel so much better... As I scream


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 12:14 PM

Bad lying by the NRA: This is not the time.
Elite Hollywood gun safety groups make billions every day (LA Pierre)
   Gun laws do not do any good
I can propose 12,000 'failed' anti gun amendments [in the words of dick cheney] So What. who ever you are you are full of meaningless numbers

Now I am going to go someplace no one talks about...

Imagine someone has purchased 35 guns pistols weapons etc.
Imagine now the imagination of the mind who bought multiple weapons.
There are dreams, scenarios, secret ambitions , private motivating thoughts, Disgusting things you would want to know.
Maybe he see himself a hero a vengeful anti hero, a villain, in a war, winning a war, Shooting the FBI, shooting the president of the government, who knows?

All of those mental images are personal motivating thoughts or he wouldn't keep buying more guns, hoping he'll get that special feeling again. Sound like an addiction? They do not often end well.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 12:27 PM

Fantasies - Maybe pure coincidence..

A recent big budget Hollywood action movie "The Accountant"
is a bizarre and gleefully entertaining 'shoot-'em-up' concerning an autistic accountant
who leads a secret life as one of the world's greatest ever mercenary hit men...

I watched it twice earlier this year..
[hmmm.. and I did gain A level Accounting exam back when I was 18 and still fairly mainstream and sensible]


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 12:44 PM

Some would argue the accountant had Asperger's syndrome rather than autism. In any case, He was a victim of his father's extreme instruction and training.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 12:59 PM

Autism or Asperger's [I should have verified - months since I watched it]..
the whole premise and tone of the movie was entirely bonkers..

But a real life accountant with a secret double existence as a gun crazy mass killer...????


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 01:01 PM

thank you punkfolkrocker

Fantasies was the word that was blocked via dyslexia.

My neighbor is an account and has a huge gun collection, hmm.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: olddude
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 01:28 PM

I like that movie, and he had a great collection of guns and an rv.. Wait so do I hmmm


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: olddude
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 01:34 PM

I am harmless unless you are a deer


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 02:07 PM

I'm a (retired) accountant and I wouldn't allow a firearm of any kind in my house, or anywhere on my property. Nobody needs a gun, except farmers and members of the armed forces. Nobody.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 04:03 PM

In America an authentic Backwoodsman   might have a long
gun or two
.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 05:49 PM

i love bsa airguns, but they're all made in Spain by gamo nowadays.

in my living room i have framed several adverts for the bsa meteor from the old eagle magazine. they have the address of the old factory in btum on them.

i can sort of understand how Americans feel about gun ownership. there is a beauty there. they respond to that, and as such its part of their cultural identity.

that said. they have problems, but 'just say no' - doesn't really persuade anyone.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Mrrzy
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 05:51 PM

Oh, life is precious, so they are taking away abortion rights because of the Las Vegas shooting.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 06:41 PM

Congrats on the new twins Mrrzy/ They took away women's paid for birth control, or didn't you know?


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: olddude
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 08:09 PM

https://www.fieldandstream.com/photos/gallery/survival/animal-attacks/2009/08/charging-grizzly-killed-alaska

You guys don't fish where I do


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: olddude
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 08:21 PM

And that's why I also own a 454 casull revolver


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: bobad
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 08:25 PM

You guys don't fish where I do

Wise Men Fish Here


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: olddude
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 09:44 PM

Lol perfect


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: bobad
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 10:18 PM

It was my favourite book store in NYC but, alas, it is no more.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: olddude
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 12:54 AM

Aww, I know how you feel I lost all of mine around here also.. They just can't compete with the big ones and kids these days don't read just play video games... Sad


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 02:53 AM

I don't fish either, 'dude! And if I did, no fisherman in England needs a gun!

Despite my loathing of guns and gun-nuts, I do understand that there are reasons why **some** civilians might **need** a gun - protection against dangerous wild-life, vermin-control, yadda yadda. Different countries, different circumstances.

But, in general, I stand by what I said - the vast majority of gun-owners don't actually need a gun, except in their paranoid imaginations.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Stu
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 06:22 AM

I've said it before... a written constitution is an albatross around the neck of any society.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 07:02 AM

why's that Stu?

i always think it might be an idea to have our government committed to freedom , decency in writing - rather than some European Court guaranteeing our rights.

Having said that. I am pretty stupid about these things, I could well be wrong about that, as I am about everything else.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Stu
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 01:52 PM

A written constitution doesn't move with the times as the gun laws amply demonstrate. You end up with anachronisms like the right to bear arms that are either interpreted differently by different people (people being people) or used in a way it was never meant to, to justify horrors and legitimise the agendas of groups and individuals that are not interested in the common good.

Also, it's roundly ignored. First amendment? Not if you're black and taking the knee, then you're insulting the flag. The VP can piss away hundreds of thousands of dollars of taxpayers money simply to make the point of a foul liar of a man who sent him on a mission to subvert that very amendment.

The flexibility of an unwritten constitution is preferable, allowing a society to adapt to changes in the wider world as well as things like technology and a million other factors. Societies must move with the times.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: olddude
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 05:09 PM

Problem with that stu is now you put in the hands of whatever elected people incredible power like passing a law to limit your free speech or press. If it's not written in stone


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 08:01 PM

The handful of nations without a constitution are just as vulnerable to Corporate take overs as nations that have a Constitution like the US.

I have been ever opposed to Corporatism because I believe them desirous of introducing, into our government, authorities hereditary or otherwise independent of the national will. They always consume the public contributions and oppress the people with labour & poverty.
Corporations like the NRA have held Congress hostage and the will of the people ignored.

Stu's point is as academic as it gets here. It is a valid debate. Hell even slavery is not a finalized debate these days.


Thomas Jefferson/Donuel


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 08:28 PM

interesting. i suppose my first reaction is to say 'why would an idiot like me who finds restringing a rickenbacker a logistical nightmare have the answer to such a complicated question?'

the second reaction though is to think...well in England we have hundreds of anachronistic laws we've never bothered repealing - driving ducks actoss westmister bridge, every yeoman having to practice archery, every gentleman having to carry a sword. we'd be a nation of sword carrying, duck driving loonies - always asking for a day off work to practice archery.

in fact , I suspect in America as well - we just let our common sense prevail and quietly forget the daft stuff.

is it really the demands of the written constitution, or is it the armament companies acting like irresponsible idiots who have caused this present situation where 20 odd thousand people are killed every year quite needlessly?


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Stu
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 04:19 AM

"Problem with that stu is now you put in the hands of whatever elected people incredible power like passing a law to limit your free speech or press."

Except in practice it doesn't work like that, not here in the UK at least. For example, we argue about the bias of our broadcast media and each side thinks it's biased against them, which means in practice it's probably relatively balanced. It's because the public are so vociferous about broadcast media bias that any bias is called out immediately: a positive for social media.

An unwritten constitution means society operates under a broad consensus unencumbered by the dogma of a document written by people long dead who could not have imagined the world we live in today. This consensus isn't perfect and a glance below the line here on Mudcat shows how UK folk discuss, debate and argue (sometimes very robustly, sometimes poorly) constantly but that is in a way a microcosm of the way our society works.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 08:12 PM

Do go on but I interrupt to trace the TIMELINE of the shooter in Vegas.

Pollard moved into his Mandalay hotel room over two days then on the night of ... THEN

Note that the first person shot is the Security Guard.
He is always called The Security Guard. Why?
Because his name is Jesus. Honest to GOD.

Jesus came to the door and Poddard shot the shit out of him through the door with automatic gunfire.

What did Jesus do?

He said he called his boss, police changed the words to authorities.
Here are all the versions   different stories

Did the police cover their ass?
Did Jesus rapture Pollard?
How is Jesus now?


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 09:26 PM

So...before there was any shooting from the windows into the crowd,
Jesus knocked on the shooters door. Then..

he was hit by bullets through the door while on a private camera.
OR
he was chased down the hall and shot in the leg while trying to hide.
he called on his own phone to Hotel Authorities or on a hallway phone, or both. We still do not know.

The Shooter then began his carnage and crowd shooting six minutes later and stoop shooting 10 to 12 minutes later. There were thousands of rounds of ammunition left over. He could have kept shooting but didn't? Was he afraid of cops coming in and capturing him? Did he shot himself then? The cops did not arrive or even discover a wounded Jesus in the hallway for at least 45 minutes. Then they blew the door open and discovered the guns and ammo alongside the body of Poddard.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: olddude
Date: 11 Oct 17 - 10:01 AM

He tried to buy tracers rounds because they said he was also shooting at the large gas storage tanks trying to blow them up. Probably would have if he used a 50 with tracers.. Figured he would get away in thecarnage . Thank God it failed or it would have been worse


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Oct 17 - 11:20 AM

sorry I missed that...where does Jesus come into this.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Oct 17 - 12:05 PM

Jesus is just the first name of the security guard that was shot 6 minutes before the crowd shooting began. I heard the recording of the security guard's warning that was relayed by the police. Somehow that message got lost once the serious shooting began.

The police is trying to evade this embarrassing fact.

Old dude, good point about the tracers that were out of stock where Pollard try to buy them. Lugging a 50 cal. into hotel room sounds heavy. Pollard probably imagined the crowd turning away from the resulting jet fuel inferno and turning back toward him.

I think Jet fuel is about as volatile as Kerosene which is much less than propane.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Oct 17 - 03:39 PM

This subject is fading faster than Newtown 1st grade,
so a word about healing before its gone.

The direct and distant victims may all feel a kind of ; if only, if I coulda, woulda, shoulda, I might have. These are shock thoughts, the sooner you ban them from your mind the better. If you can just talk you will feel better. Some have the luxury of free non judgmental friends who will listen quietly but most of us will have to pay professionals. Do it. Instead of spending on your home spend for your mind.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Oct 17 - 04:20 PM

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/jesus-campos-vegas-security-guard-shot-before-rampage-appears-to-have-vanished/ar-AAtCWGw?li=B


Did someone give him cash to disappear ?


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Mrrzy
Date: 17 Oct 17 - 04:57 PM

Donuel, they are 22.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Oct 17 - 09:29 AM

Donuel,

https://patch.com/nevada/lasvegas/las-vegas-shooting-security-guard-haled-hero-thought-missing-safe



MSN has slightly less credibility than Fox...


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Oct 17 - 09:53 AM

Fox and MSNBC are amateurs compared to the Russians.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Oct 17 - 11:39 AM

MSN has slightly less credibility than Fox

Only to you, BB, and the rest of the BDM. The facts (real ones- not alternative ones) and surveys clearly prove otherwise.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Oct 17 - 11:50 AM

They both have an agenda but only Rachel Maddow and staff have bona fide credibility as evidenced by her many awards and accolades.

60 minutes did some top notch journalism on the opioid story and how Trump chose the man who made opiates safe from any regulations or prosecution to head up the opiate addiction task force.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Oct 17 - 12:28 PM

They both have an agenda...

Not quite- Faux has a mission: to disseminate utter bullshit and propaganda.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Mrrzy
Date: 18 Oct 17 - 02:50 PM

And now, this. You can't make this stuff up.


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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Oct 17 - 03:45 PM

I can not show you the 'epic cartoon' of the back of a black man's head with a large hole through it showing a distant Donald with a smoking gun on Madison Ave.

By epic cartoon I mean raw detailed photo realism.
The truth of the picture could be misconstrued by the insane.

I wouldn't want it out there to amuse Nazis or impel death threats.

of course I could sign it donald trump jr.


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Mudcat time: 18 October 4:55 PM EDT

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