BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 09:05 AM

Thanks to all the UK folks who are willing to inform us of alternatives.

There are people listening.


btw
What you don't know is the Trump overload we are suffering over here. You know nothing about the constancy, the intensity the overarching omnipresence. It is toxic it builds up it has to be expelled from the system. So stop saying shut up about it. That is unhealthy for all of us over here. You can ignore it, shut your eyes, we can't as long as we are awake.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 09:20 AM

Dave to argue against NRA jargon is no more rational than the NRA jargon itself which is irrational. Repeating the senseless NRA jargon is just a repeated hypnosis phrase pure and simple. It needn't make sense, it only needs to be parroted and repeated.

You would think arguing sense to the senseless would create a correction in thought but it doesn't work that way.
no pun intended but you have to fight fire with fire.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 09:29 AM

Dave the Gnome,

You have missed the point.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
from Iain's clicky:
" Scotland has about 75,000 licensed firearms and shotguns. England and Wales even more, with about 1.8 million in circulation. And these guns have impact."

so, UK 1,875.000 firearms, 30 homicides by guns 0.000016 killed per gun
USA 300,000,000+ firearms 5100 homicides by guns <0.000017 killed per gun

----------------------------------------------------------------------

The number of people murdered PER GUN in the UK is not much different from the number per gun murdered in the US.


from Backwoodsman:"Here in the UK, as Acorn says, gun-licensing is very strictly controlled, and the use to which a gun can be put is very limited. So there are comparatively few guns held by civilians, compared to the US."


Yet there are just about as many murders PER GUN in the UK as in the USA- So obviously all that careful vetting of gun owners has no effect.

" It is the legislation that allows free access to firearms to anyone and therefore to more nutcases."

The PRESENT UK legislation allows the SAME PERCENTAGE of nutcases ( out of all allowed gun owners) to get the guns- They restrict ALL access to firearms, but do NOT reduce the murders PER GUN.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 09:39 AM

Present (EXISTING) US policies have produced less than 0.000017 murders per gun.

Present UK policies have produced 0.000016 murders per gun.




In the US:

ONLY confiscation ( ie, removal of the 2nd amendment) would reduce the number of guns, but only from legal owners, those LEAST likely to commit murder.

This would INCREASE the number of murders PER GUN.

The problem is NOT that we have too many guns, but that we have too many criminals.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Stu
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 09:44 AM

"So obviously all that careful vetting of gun owners has no effect."

This crap annoys the living bejesus out of me because it's another sleight of hand and is dishonest, which is a huge part of the problem. Contemptible.

From here: How many people are killed by guns a year in Great Britain?


Last year there were 51 gun homicides in the UK.
The population is 62M about 1/5th that of the US.

So if the US had the same level of gun crime, that would give an annual death toll of 254.

You've got too many guns and that is why your country is killing innocents by the hundreds yearly.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 10:12 AM

No point missed at all. The figures quoted are wrong. Directly from This article.

Gun violence in the United States results in tens of thousands of deaths and injuries annually.[1] In 2013, there were 73,505 nonfatal firearm injuries (23.2 injuries per 100,000 U.S. citizens),[2][3] and 33,636 deaths due to "injury by firearms" (10.6 deaths per 100,000 U.S. citizens).[4] These deaths consisted of 11,208 homicides,[5] 21,175 suicides,[4] 505 deaths due to accidental or negligent discharge of a firearm, and 281 deaths due to firearms use with "undetermined intent".[4] Of the 2,596,993 total deaths in the US in 2013, 1.3% were related to firearms.[1][6] The ownership and control of guns are among the most widely debated issues in the country.

So, the quoted figure of 5100 is well under the number of murders and massively under the total number of deaths. 11,000 by homicide alone. Almost another thousand due to accidents and undetermined causes. So your less than 0.000017 murders per gun is a massive under representation and if we put in the true figures - IE 12000 deaths / number of guns you have double that of the UK. I would also cast doubts on the number of guns given in both cases as well. The number of illegal, non-registered guns have not been been taken into account.

This does not account for the number of injuries either. I would postulate that the number of injuries due to firearms is going to be massively higher by proportion in the US than the UK.

As Stu has already explained, there are just too many guns and they are all to often in the hands of people that should not have them.

Scary fact for you here.

For every 100 people in the UK there are less than 7 guns. In the USA that is 112 guns per 100 people.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 10:33 AM

"they are all to often in the hands of people that should not have them."

The numbers show that the UK has NO SUBSTANTIALLY BETTER rate of murders per gun than the US has. Yes, we have more guns, but you have as many murders PER GUN as wee do- AFTER ALL YOUR vetting of owners.



"If we are to remain a nation where the right to bear arms is constitutionally protected, we're going to have to live with the possibility, maybe even the probability, that legally-obtained weapons will sometimes be used for a bad purpose by insane or evil people. If we want to be a country where gun violence is reduced drastically, then we will also have to be one where ownership of legal weapons is restricted to a privileged few rather than a right all citizens enjoy.

Those who support the Second Amendment must be honest about the price of the liberty they cherish. But those who wish to deprive us of that right must also be honest about what they want. The Second Amendment exists because the Founders believed giving the monopoly on firearms to the state was a prescription for tyranny. Is that a risk most of us wish to run?

Many Americans do wish to relegate the Second Amendment to the trash heap of history. Perhaps many would like to trade some of their liberty for fewer worries about gun violence. But if liberals want to talk about gun control, rather than more disingenuous nonsense about background checks, that's the argument they should be forced to make.

Anything short of that is a waste of our time. Until the left directly addresses their desire to change the Constitution and end gun rights altogether, their rhetoric about gun violence should be ignored."

http://thefederalist.com/2017/10/04/gun-control-debate-pointless-liberals-admit-want-repeal-second-amendment/

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 10:47 AM

In the WashPo. One of the more pro-gun control media- they stated that the only purpose for the Glock was for criminals ( just check to see what most police are carrying now).



-------------------------------------------------------------------
I used to think gun control was the answer. My research told me otherwise.

By Leah Libresco

October 3, 2017 at 3:02 PM


"Before I started researching gun deaths, gun-control policy used to frustrate me. I wished the National Rifle Association would stop blocking common-sense gun-control reforms such as banning assault weapons, restricting silencers, shrinking magazine sizes and all the other measures that could make guns less deadly.

Then, my colleagues and I at FiveThirtyEight spent three months analyzing all 33,000 lives ended by guns each year in the United States, and I wound up frustrated in a whole new way. We looked at what interventions might have saved those people, and the case for the policies I'd lobbied for crumbled when I examined the evidence. The best ideas left standing were narrowly tailored interventions to protect subtypes of potential victims, not broad attempts to limit the lethality of guns.

.........

By the time we published our project, I didn't believe in many of the interventions I'd heard politicians tout. I was still anti-gun, at least from the point of view of most gun owners, and I don't want a gun in my home, as I think the risk outweighs the benefits. But I can't endorse policies whose only selling point is that gun owners hate them. Policies that often seem as if they were drafted by people who have encountered guns only as a figure in a briefing book or an image on the news."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/opinions/i-used-to-think-gun-control-was-the-answer-my-research-told-me-otherwise/2017/10

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 10:47 AM

The numbers show that the UK has NO SUBSTANTIALLY BETTER rate of murders per gun than the US has.

I have just shown that it is substantially better in the UK. The figures you provided previously were wrong. You are flogging a dead horse here. Probably shooting it with a semi automatic...

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 10:53 AM

Stu,

All those carefully checked UK gun owners commit JUST AS MANY MURDERS PER GUN as the gun owners in the US.

The flaw is in the people , not the tool.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 10:58 AM

Dave,

Homicide is not murder- I used murder as that is what the UK figures are based on.

If a policeman kills someone legally, that is NOT a murder


You have not shown the figures I gave ( 2012, by the way- back in Obama's enlightened administration) are incorrect. If they went up the next year, ( still under Obama) maybe that indicates that the Liberals have a weak grasp on effective law enforcement.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: olddude
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 11:10 AM

Actually bruces stats have merit, however we need to get rid of the gun show loophole, assault weapons don't really have a place for sportsmen or hunting. To easy to convert. Now america is a big place. If you grew up in the mountains like I did that deer meat was important for food. Many places especially alaska is the same way. They depend on hunting. We have some really good gun laws but loopholes that negate many of them. Let's fix that. You could put many European countries inside one of our local counties. It's addifferent nation. Fix the loopholes but new laws won't work until it's addressed

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 11:22 AM

"Paris, where 130 individuals were gunned down in 2015, has some of the world's most stringent firearms restrictions. So does Chicago, where 519 persons have been murdered already this year.

The humane response to the tragedy visited upon Las Vegas is not legislation but consolation, for both victims and survivors. Politicians are unable to stop mass murder because the black heart responsible for the finger that pulls the trigger occupies a dark place beyond the reach of reason. If law alone could govern the actions of mankind, a law comprised of only four short words would have been enough: "Thou shalt not kill.""

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: olddude
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 11:25 AM

When I was hunting in alaska, I checked my rifle and handgun at the Tsa as required, they make sure it's uploaded, slap a firearms tag on it, off to alaska. In alaska, show them my id get my guns. When I came back home, my airport tossed them on the baggage conveyor belt with all the other luggage so anyone could have stolen them while I was taking a piss in the restroom. I climbed all over Tsa ass about it and they said well its up to each airport how to handle it... Fucking nuts stuff like this negates all gun laws

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: olddude
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 11:32 AM

NY has the toughest gun control laws in the nation and they throw my weapons on a public baggage claim... Thank god no one took them. Alaska has no gun control and they took great care with them... It's all nuts

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 11:36 AM

In general, the more Liberal a state is, the more strict the gun laws- and the less consistent the enforcement.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 11:42 AM

Olddude in travelling to and from our hunting area the guns have to be in a locked/secure case (Two different locks, two different keys), the bolt must be removed from the rifle and carried separately, the same applies to any ammunition. As we travel as a group the from one person's rifle goes in someone else in the groups check-in luggage so should anyone read the tag on the rifle case, and then pilfer the check-in luggage of the same person - the rifle is still useless.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: olddude
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 12:09 PM

Ours just have to be unloaded, no ammo, that has to be separate and inspected by Tsa.
I really liked alaska having to show your id and baggage claims tag to get them. Why in the world some airports toss them on the baggage conveyor is crazy to me. I like your idea of pulling all the bolts, I will do that also from now on great idea

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: olddude
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 12:11 PM

Oh ours also has to be in double locked cases

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: frogprince
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 12:16 PM

Contrasting deaths by country per-gun-owned might begin to make sense
if and when it becomes probable that a mass killer who owns 18 or 118 guns will use each one of those guns in a killing incident.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 12:21 PM

You mean like in the present case, with 23 weapons used?

Isn't that the topic of this thread?

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 12:25 PM

Gun supporters;

please make it known to all of us if you support any reasonable law or action to diminish mass shooting attacks.
just yes or no is fine

There is a tide coming in from many gun supporters that is carrying some reasonable change agreement. Is there a crack of sunshine behind the door of never change a thing?

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 12:45 PM

The BS about the population being armed in order to fight the government is an absolute bag of bollocks. I'd just love to see all those gun-nut, redneck crackpots' faces when the tanks, F-16s, F-22s, attack helicopters, and drones start setting their fat, sweaty arses on fire. Anyone who believes that a disorganised rabble, consisting of 'hunters' and wannabe-Rambos, could mount any sort of meaningful challenge to the Armed Forces of the US really is deluded to the point of insanity, and should never be allowed within ten miles of a fire-arm.

The 2nd Amendment, in today's terms, is therefore meaningless and redundant, and should be removed from the constitution (or amended in such a way as to make it clear that being allowed to possess firearms is a privilege, not a right and, like all privileges, it cannot be demanded! it must be earned.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 12:50 PM

my simple take on this...

reasonable American gun owners will be prepared to accept fair pragmatic compromises...

Unreasonable American gun owners will be prepared to go down in a blaze of glory in stand-off battles with law enforcement officers...

Any new much needed laws and restrictions will be near impossible to implement and enforce.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 12:56 PM

Gotta keep trying though, PFR!

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: frogprince
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 12:58 PM

Further snowflakey/libtard reflections...

"Arms", by definition, is not limited to hand held firearms; the dictionary includes "ordinance" and "artillery". Why aren't there more real patriots out there with the guts to insist on their rights to the GOOD stuff ?
If the point of the second amendment is to protect the individual against his government, it isn't worth the...powder to blow it up with ?... unless there are, at the very least, collectives of like-minded civilians who possess levels of weaponry comparable to what the government can bring to bear.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: frogprince
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 01:01 PM

And, while I was typing, Backwoodsman beat me to the point very effectively.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 01:04 PM

I've watched too many American movies and satellite TV documentaries on Preppers and near future USA civil wars...

...not forgetting military led coups backed by local militias... 🙄

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: olddude
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 01:07 PM

Punky we do have no shortage of crazy also for sure.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: mg
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 01:16 PM

Never be to quick to write off disorganized rabble.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: olddude
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 01:18 PM

Here is another good example. A sawed off short barrel show gun is illegal without a special license that is difficult and expensive toget. HHowever, you can buy one directly from a gun company absolutely legal with no special license if it has a pistol grip and no shoulder stock.. Why, because the law says to be a shotgun it has to have a shoulder fired stock. How do I know, I own one. Great for walking through the brush in grizzly bear country but a bad guy would use it for other things.. Crazy see what I mean

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: olddude
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 01:23 PM

By the way, could can't make one, it's illegal but if it is factory unaltered it is a firearm and not a shotgun.. Insane shit, see why we bitch about more laws

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 01:27 PM

"please make it known to all of us if you support any reasonable law or action to diminish mass shooting attacks"

1. Show me the law and tell me how it reduces the risk of mass shootings.

"just yes or no is fine"

Not reasonable- "Have you stopped beating your wife- yes or no?"

I would support new laws IF I have reason to think that

1. They would be enforced fairly.

2. They would be effective in doing what they are put in place to do.

3. They would inflict less damage than the actions they are trying to prevent.
Obviously, a government search and seizure from ALL homes, places of business, and private property of ALL firearms and ammunition would reduce the chance of mass shootings- but the riots that would occur might well kill a lot more than the shootings.
But then, if we can't keep 11 million illegal aliens from entering the country, how can we keep out the ( then illegal) firearms? We need a bigger wall, to prevent re-arming of those who desire guns ( present criminals and the new criminals that would resist the confiscation.)

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 01:27 PM

About laws:

Owning fully automatic weapons is 'mostly' illegal,as is converting a semi to an auto....

But the $50 kit to DO the conversion IS legal... as are the "bump stocks" he used which allow 'almost' automatic fire by using the gun's own recoil to fire faster than anyone can actually pull the trigger.

So...any ideas where **laws** that don't actually ban guns could be applied? (we all know that banning or confiscating guns would be essentially impossible as things stand)

The Republicans were about to introduce legislation to allow certain types of special ammo designed to penetrate armor.... any ideas about that? (they are now 'waiting' on that and a couple other more 'liberal', NRA approved, laws.

   Do the math.... more population means more stresses in society and more mental instability. With guns legally available to almost everyone until their instability surfaces in ways which make headlines, the total number of dangerous, unstable people with guns WILL rise. Add to that recruits to terrorism, anti-abortion radicals and just plain, 'normal' people who "feel the need for protection" but have limited skills..... any ideas how that might affect a few sad statistics in the future?

I am no expert on weaponry, but I can read, reason and do math. I don't like what I see coming.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 01:36 PM

...even before this latest devastating massacre..
I've been up late at night idly watching youtube compilations on "gun fails"...

.. and these are only the sanitized videos where the fukwits actually survived...


Scary to consider the 'stars' of these videos may mostly be legal gun owners...

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 01:46 PM

And unless we get rid of propane, LNG , and natural gas, there will always be the risk of FAE bombs.

Gasoline is another high explosive compound. Fuel oil and fertilizer,and a number of household chemicals as well. Then there are the home-made chemical weapons that any high school student could make. I guess we need to control access to all of these things, since they present a danger in the hands of the mentally unstable.

Or we could try to raise a population that does not consider mass murder
as a reasonable way to resolve differences.

Naw, let em just riot and tear down what they don't like, and beat up those who have views they disagree with.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 01:59 PM

The UK is fast to respond with new public safety prohibition laws.

The latest proposal is to ban sales of sulphuric acid to under 18s...

USA libertarians may consider the UK to be an intolerable draconian state,
but we are used to it, and just get on with our lives....

What is interesting, is that whenever occasional police amnesties are announced for handing in knives and illegal firearms,
surprisingly there seems to be a very positive response
and the resulting voluntarily handed in stashes of weapons are prominently displayed on TV news as they are stacked up for destruction...

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 02:03 PM

"
"You never want a serious crisis to go to waste," Rahm Emanuel, then a congressman, said shortly after the 2008 election. "What I mean by that is that it's an opportunity to do things you think you could not do before."

So it is with gun control. Every slaughter is an opening to capitalize on grief and hope the public gives government license to do what it previously rejected.

Of course, not all slaughters are exploited equally. Chicago, where Emanuel is now mayor, is on a historic killing spree, with more than 500 murders already this year.

Chicago has an ongoing mass murder problem, even as it has among the nation's strictest gun control laws, to little effect. Yet the Democratic media rarely mention the slaughter there or in Baltimore or Detroit, all of which take place under Democratic mayors with very restrictive gun laws.

Murder carried out daily by illegal handguns, and involving mostly the death of black males living under liberal mayors, doesn't motivate the national media. Could it be that there is no political advantage to be had, and thus no business interest in the carnage?"

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: olddude
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 02:10 PM

Bill, doesn't cost 50 bucks, give me ten minutes on a lathe... Insane shit for sure

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: olddude
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 02:13 PM

No more dumb ass laws that accomplish nothing, fix it loopholes and repair the broken ones that do no good for anyone including us sportsmen

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: olddude
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 02:18 PM

Want an assault rifle that is of no use except for people, 300 bucks on the net... Fucking nuts

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 02:24 PM

Kampervan,

"Punt guns were used in the 19th century to hunt waterfowl. It's still possible to pick them up second hand."

Used to be used here on the Chesapeake Bay- they are illegal here now, and considered WMD ( anything over a specified diameter. ) I think the 26mm flare pistols are about the largest diameter legal firearms. Some muzzle-loading cannon are available, but require licensing.

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 02:29 PM

Olddude,

It is not an assault rifle. That would require it to be selective fire ( capable of full automatic)

An assault rifle is a selective-fire rifle that uses an intermediate cartridge and a detachable magazine.[1][2][3][4][5] Assault rifles were first used during World War II.[6][7][8] Though Western nations were slow to accept the assault rifle concept, by the end of the 20th century they had become the standard weapon in most of the world's armies, replacing full-powered rifles and sub-machine guns in most roles.[8] Examples include the StG 44, AK-47 and the M16 rifle.[8]

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 02:45 PM

"..Gasoline is another high explosive compound. Fuel oil and fertilizer,and a number of household chemicals as well. Then there are the home-made chemical weapons that any high school student could make. I guess we need to control access to all of these things, since they present a danger in the hands of the mentally unstable. "

False equivalency!!! As is throwing cars, hammers, knives and bug spray into that ridiculous line of non-reason.

ALL those items have many normal uses beyond 'possible' crazy ones. Guns have a very limited set of uses.... and the valid ones do NOT require high capacity magazines and rapid fire, except for police & military uses. Yet we allow many restrictions and registrations on auto registration and driving ...and even fertilizer is being restricted... and it is pretty difficult for the average nut to cause mass casualties with stuff from a high-school chem lab.

   I am so tired of the convoluted logic being used to defend a vaguely phrased 2nd amendment which was written when single-shot muzzle loaders were the standard and the need for a "well-maintained militia" meant something VERY different. If you had shown the founding fathers an AK-47, they would have rephrased that amendment VERY carefully!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: olddude
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 02:54 PM

Bruce my point is it can be easily converted.. You are technically correct but once modified so am I

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 03:20 PM

Olddude,

And the modification is illegal- so what use are MORE LAWS? ONLY a law-abiding person would NOT do something because it is illegal- and a person who commits murder is NOT a law-abiding person.




BillD,

If the founding fathers had known of amplifiers, radio, television, and the internet. the FIRST amendment would have been different as well. Where is YOUR flatbed , hand powered press? Where is your speaker's stand with NO microphone? And the idea of an audience greater than within physical hearing distance?...

Any modification due to technology either requires amendment OR must apply to ALL of the amendments. Would you state that the fourth amendment would NOT prohibit x-rays or MRI without consent, since that technology did not exist at the time?

Either "the right of the people " applies to all the items it is included in ( freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom to possess weapons, etc) or it is not valid for any.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 03:28 PM

please make it known to all of us if you support any reasonable law or action to diminish mass shooting attacks.
just yes or no is fine



no one has answered, let me be the first

yes

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 03:29 PM

BillD,
"it is pretty difficult for the average nut to cause mass casualties with stuff from a high-school chem lab."

I beg to differ- but will refrain from specifying the exact chemicals used.

Nitroglycerin
phosgene
mustard gas
chlorine gas

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 03:37 PM

BEFORE I agree that additional laws are needed, please tell me how they will actually produce the desired effect.


Or should I look at the previous attempts when laws WERE passed to STOP GUN VIOLENCE?

"For the first weekend of October, the Chicago Tribune reported, “At least 32 people were shot over the weekend, including a man killed along the Chicago River on the Northwest Side and a 13-year-old boy wounded while riding his bike in Little Village on the West Side, according to police. Between Friday afternoon and early Monday, at least four people were killed and 28 others wounded, police said.”

The prior weekend in the Windy City brought a grim milestone of 500 homicides, so far, for 2017.

For some reason, Mrs. Clinton and the other liberals and Hollywood celebrities tweeting their outrage and demands for gun control have been silent about the massacres in Chicago. Perhaps because they were successful there and “gun control” was achieved. Now that it failed, they would have to confront issues like gangs, MS-13 and drugs. Confronted with the fraud of the liberal solution of gun control, the only answer is to not look, move on and abandon the victims."

Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
From: mg
Date: 04 Oct 17 - 03:42 PM

i am for laws preventing mass shootings.