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BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far
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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far From: Iains Date: 03 Oct 17 - 04:46 AM Easy Shaw. It is the human behind the machine that controls it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far From: theleveller Date: 03 Oct 17 - 04:49 AM What Stu said. How do I know that American are totally insane? First of all they refuse to accept that they are 20 times more likely to be killed by gunfire than in countries with tighter gun laws and that half of all mass shootings in history have happened in the USA, all as a result of an obsession with gun ownership. Then, when the worst mass shooting in their history happens, what do they do? Go out and buy more guns. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far From: Steve Shaw Date: 03 Oct 17 - 04:51 AM Steve's the name. It may be easy to you but you've attracted three sets of furrowed brows in under an hour. Have a large espresso and try again. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far From: Backwoodsman Date: 03 Oct 17 - 05:48 AM "What Stu said. How do I know that American are totally insane? First of all they refuse to accept that they are 20 times more likely to be killed by gunfire than in countries with tighter gun laws and that half of all mass shootings in history have happened in the USA, all as a result of an obsession with gun ownership. Then, when the worst mass shooting in their history happens, what do they do? Go out and buy more guns." You forgot to mention that they believe the answer to gun-violence, as well as buying more guns, is to offer 'thoughts and prayers'. 😳 He's not listening, guys. You're fucked. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 03 Oct 17 - 05:54 AM Caleb Keeter, lead guitarist at the event, was a lifelong proponent of the Second. He has now tweeted: "I cannot express how wrong I was." That's earned him plenty of abuse from gun lobbyists, but I'm relieved to realise from his more recent, measured, thoughts that olddude will not be among them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far From: Donuel Date: 03 Oct 17 - 06:44 AM Every US kid in school has had active shooter practice lockdowns. They all have a fear of being shot I can not imagine Until - I was at the Mall food court and lifted the wooden garbage can door way too hard and it went BANG - kids poured out of several booths and started running for their lives. Like fire spreading there were more who responded to the bang and running and did the same. I now know kids constant fear of shooters. I thank old dude for being a foil to present some waves of change that desperately need to turn into a current and someday a torrential call for common sense without loopholes. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far From: DMcG Date: 03 Oct 17 - 07:20 AM The bbc is reporting that a lot of fake news is going about claiming the shooter was an anti Trump fanatic wheb the evidence is that he had no affliation to any such party or movement. It is hard to think of anything more despicable than using these people's deaths in that way. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far From: Mrrzy Date: 03 Oct 17 - 08:17 AM He's being called a domestic terrorist. The issue isn't with Americans and guns, look at Canada, lots of guns, you don't have to disarm like Australia. The issue is that Americans actually think it's OK to shoot people. You can shoot people who come onto your property - when did trespassing get the death penalty? You can shoot people who are taking your stuff - since when did robbery carry the death penalty? You can shoot people when you're scared - since when is that not called Panicking and if you're a cop, you aren't a cop any more? John Wayne has a lot to answer for. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far From: Donuel Date: 03 Oct 17 - 08:29 AM Bill O'Rielly agrees with Mrrzy. He says "these mass shooting accidents are the price for freedom." Some Americans think its OK like Mrrzy said. Others may know better but won't lift a finger. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far From: Backwoodsman Date: 03 Oct 17 - 08:29 AM The moment you educate people that it's NOT OK to shoot people, the imagined 'need' for guns goes away, and disarmament makes complete sense to them Unfortunately, the NRA and the weapons industry do a lot of lobbying and spend a lot of money on measures to ensure that the US public are not educated thus, and on instilling fear and paranoia. Very few people have guns here, we're not scared. Average 70 gun-deaths a year in a population of 65 million v. 12,000 in a population of 360 million. Says it all. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far From: punkfolkrocker Date: 03 Oct 17 - 08:36 AM A popular NRA mantra is "If the good guys carry guns.." Well there were something like 20,000 at that festival, in a City with probably the laxest gun laws, and easiest access to gun purchase... Yet apparently that night none of the good citizens in the crowd were carrying, or they were so shocked they were incapable of responding, drawing, and shooting back...??? Which thankfully prevented the scenario of extra untold mayhem and bloodbath of panicking shooters firing guns in every direction at any imagined sniper position... That would have been one hell of an uncontrolled mess of a cowboy shoot out for the cops to contend with... So did the festival have a search and hand in guns at the gate rule...??? Which would have been sensible considering the amount of alcohol to be enjoyed at a Country festival..... And even if they did, how easily could stewards and security have implemented that 'infringement' on legal gun carriers rights...?????? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far From: Backwoodsman Date: 03 Oct 17 - 08:53 AM One guy said that he saw the woman next to him shot in the head, "If only I'd had my gun...". i wonder how 'having his gun' would have been of any benefit to the dead woman? How would he have managed to 'take out' a distant assailant he couldn't see and didn't know for sure where he was? If people had 'had their guns' at the festival, the result would have been considerably more people dead and injured. Anyone with at least half a functioning brain should be able to understand that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 03 Oct 17 - 09:59 AM Punkfolkrocker, the band were heavily armed, but as their guitarist Caleb said elsewhere in the tweet I cited above, their guns were useless in the circs. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far From: Stu Date: 03 Oct 17 - 10:03 AM "the band were heavily armed" We are totally fucked as a species. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far From: punkfolkrocker Date: 03 Oct 17 - 10:10 AM In the UK the list of items prohibited from being brought into a concert, festival, or public event ranges from fair to unreasonable.. But we have to accept the rules, or risk being barred entry..... This summer, even pineapples were added to the list...... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far From: punkfolkrocker Date: 03 Oct 17 - 10:15 AM "the band were heavily armed" Band audition - "Ok guys, we are looking for new band members, so let's see how well you play.. and shoot...!!!???" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far From: beardedbruce Date: 03 Oct 17 - 10:23 AM Big Al Whittle The latest report is that the shooter had modified two guns himself (illegally) Selling him a gun would have been legal in any state in the USA (See restrictions on HUNTING RIFLES) NO proposed gun regulations would have stopped him from obtaining guns. During WWII, the US made and dropped a million or so 12 gauge single shot shotguns into Europe, for use by the resistance ( in addition to other guns) They consisted of 1- 12 gauge shotgun cartridge, a 2" piece of 2x4 wood, a nail, two pipes, and a couple of metal straps ( could have been made with rope or canvas strips). They were used to shoot enemy soldiers WHO HAD GUNS, and let the resistance arm themselves. There are 300 + MILLION guns in the USA now. Say we collect 200,000,000 of them. That still leaves 100,000,000 out there. Not even including theft of weapons from the police or military. How many criminals do you think will turn in their illegal weapons? It is against the law for a person ever convicted of a felony to possess a firearm- so what good does making a new law do? It is against the law to shoot people without legal cause- Has that EVER prevented a shooting? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far From: Jack Campin Date: 03 Oct 17 - 10:27 AM Search on the SCRAN site (http://www.scran.ac.uk/) for "Ploughmen at a 'harvest home'. Fairygreen Farm, Kinrossie, Perthshire, 1936" (they say "no Internet use" but if you have a Scottish library card you can log in). Band lineup: Highland pipes, melodeon, rifle. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far From: Iains Date: 03 Oct 17 - 11:30 AM Straying away from this horrific tragedy a little. Below is an analysis some may agree with and others vehemently deny. It concerns a comparison with the UK gun laws(after Dunblane), Australia and the US. It also raises possible reasons for the 2nd amendment and how Scotland never felt the need to follow the same road. http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/14340378.Twenty_years_on__the_truth_about_Dunblane_and_gun_laws/ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far From: leeneia Date: 03 Oct 17 - 11:49 AM The real problem is that the criminal was insane. If he didn't have guns, he could have driven a truck into the crowd, he could have built a bomb, or he could have started a fire in a crowded building. Starting in the 1970's, western countries have abandoned their mentally ill. And other, evil people have moved in to exploit their fear and pain and to use them as "soldiers" for their causes. The Internet has made this process much worse. I used the word "insane." Insane is not a medical term. What can it mean? Paranoia, alcoholism, illegal drugs, PSTD, brain tumor, are the main things that come to my mind. Yes, I certainly wish that there were fewer guns around. But I also wish that the mentally impaired could find real treatment. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far From: Jack Campin Date: 03 Oct 17 - 12:13 PM It's circular reasoning to say that someone is insane when your only evidence is what he did. That isn't evidence at all. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far From: Stu Date: 03 Oct 17 - 12:31 PM "But I also wish that the mentally impaired could find real treatment." We're all "mentally impaired". It is impossible to judge whether someone presents a risk; this is a real and dangerous misunderstanding of mental illness. Demonising mentally ill people in this way only leads to a dark place... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far From: beardedbruce Date: 03 Oct 17 - 02:59 PM There are 30,000 gun related deaths per year by firearms, and this number is not disputed. The U.S. population is 324,059,091 as of June 22, 2016. Do the math: 0.000000925% of the population dies from gun related actions each year. Statistically speaking, this is insignificant! What is never told, however, is a breakdown of those 30,000 deaths, to put them in perspective as compared to other causes of death: • 65% of those deaths are by suicide, which would never be prevented by gun laws. • 15% are by law enforcement in the line of duty and justified. • 17% are through criminal activity, gang and drug related or mentally ill persons – better known as gun violence. • 3% are accidental discharge deaths. So technically, "gun violence" is not 30,000 annually, but drops to 5,100. Still too many? Now lets look at how those deaths spanned across the nation. • 480 homicides (9.4%) were in Chicago • 344 homicides (6.7%) were in Baltimore • 333 homicides (6.5%) were in Detroit • 119 homicides (2.3%) were in Washington D.C. (a 54% increase over prior years) So basically, 25% of all gun crime happens in just 4 cities. All 4 of those cities have strict gun laws, so it is not the lack of law that is the root cause. This basically leaves 3,825 for the entire rest of the nation, or about 75 deaths per state. That is an average because some States have much higher rates than others. For example, California had 1,169 and Alabama had 1. Now, who has the strictest gun laws by far? California, of course, but understand, it is not guns causing this. It is a crime rate spawned by the number of criminal persons residing in those cities and states. So if all cities and states are not created equal, then there must be something other than the tool causing the gun deaths. Are 5,100 deaths per year horrific? How about in comparison to other deaths? All death is sad and especially so when it is in the commission of a crime but that is the nature of crime. Robbery, death, rape, assault are all done by criminals. It is ludicrous to think that criminals will obey laws. That is why they are called criminals. But what about other deaths each year? • 40,000+ die from a drug overdose–THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR THAT! • 36,000 people die per year from the flu, far exceeding the criminal gun deaths. • 34,000 people die per year in traffic fatalities(exceeding gun deaths even if you include suicide). Now it gets good: • 200,000+ people die each year (and growing) from preventable medical errors. You are safer walking in the worst areas of Chicago than you are when you are in a hospital! • 710,000 people die per year from heart disease. It's time to stop the double cheeseburgers! So what is the point? If the liberal loons and the anti-gun movement focused their attention on heart disease, even a 10% decrease in cardiac deaths would save twice the number of lives annually of all gun-related deaths (including suicide, law enforcement, etc.). A 10% reduction in medical errors would be 66% of the total number of gun deaths or 4 times the number of criminal homicides ................ Simple, easily preventable 10% reductions! So you have to ask yourself, in the grand scheme of things, why the focus on guns? It's pretty simple: Taking away guns gives control to governments. The founders of this nation knew that regardless of the form of government, those in power may become corrupt and seek to rule as the British did by trying to disarm the populace of the colonies. It is not difficult to understand that a disarmed populace is a controlled populace. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far From: beardedbruce Date: 03 Oct 17 - 03:15 PM from Iain's clicky: " Scotland has about 75,000 licensed firearms and shotguns. England and Wales even more, with about 1.8 million in circulation. And these guns have impact." so, UK 1,875.000 firearms, 30 homicides by guns 0.000016 killed per gun USA 300,000,000+ firearms 5100 homicides by guns <0.000017 killed per gun |
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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far From: punkfolkrocker Date: 03 Oct 17 - 03:29 PM Yeah... The Las Vegas mass killer was a retired accountant... I guess he also was quite adept at minimising the significance of human suffering by visualising the world in terms of abstract numbers...??? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far From: beardedbruce Date: 03 Oct 17 - 03:43 PM One death is a tragedy- 50 is a political windfall. But the fact is, NO additional gun laws would have prevented this, or other deaths. THE PRESENT LAWS are not being enforced, so why pass more that will be ignored? It is already against the law to murder people- so why do you think a new law would have stopped these murders? Passing additional gun laws would NOT deal with the actual problem- they would be "feel-good" measures- Look, See what we have done! Which would not reduce the murders, or be obeyed by the criminals. It would affect law-abiding folks- . When your family is seconds away from tragedy, the police are minutes away. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far From: Backwoodsman Date: 03 Oct 17 - 03:59 PM Oh well, no point trying to do anything about it then. Just keep offering your useless 'thoughts and prayers'. Good luck. So glad I don't live there. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far From: beardedbruce Date: 03 Oct 17 - 04:13 PM Backwoodsman, Perhaps if we enforced the laws we have, and actually tried to tell people that it is NOT ok to violate the law because one wants to ( ie, punish those that do violate the law) there might be fewer murders. Why do you think that passing laws that have been shown to have no or negative effect in this country a( see post with cities that have high crime- and strongest laws) would do any good? Can someone explain that? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far From: beardedbruce Date: 03 Oct 17 - 04:17 PM Not to worry, though. It being illegal to fire a weapon in the city I live in, if someone invades my home I will just hit him/her over the head with a guitar, wrap the strings around their neck, and twist until the (person's) head comes off.... So much nicer than inflicting a disabling wound that they might recover from. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far From: punkfolkrocker Date: 03 Oct 17 - 04:27 PM What'd be the best string gauge for that... light or heavies..??? I have a few spare maple telecaster copy necks dotted around the house.. I think in the UK we might be allowed that much...???? ..perhaps easier to explain to the law than baseball bats...????? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far From: beardedbruce Date: 03 Oct 17 - 04:48 PM Smaller gauge would cut through the tendons and arteries better, as long as they are strong enough not to break. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far From: mg Date: 03 Oct 17 - 04:57 PM what was the chain of events in the hotel itself. there was a veteran two stories above killer i think who kept trying to reach hotel desk, police, etc. he finally reached police. did killer disable phone system first, which would have been a smart move I would think. what could hotel staff have done that would not have endangered rest of hotel staff and guests? perhaps a recorded message..this is room service. the police are on their way. at the point the killer knows things are coming her/his way, they often shoot themselves. what would have minutes have bought them? I don't know. just speculating...what did hotel staff know, what did they do, what are they trained for? in a casino hotel there must be massive security... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far From: Dave the Gnome Date: 03 Oct 17 - 05:21 PM The weapons were illegally modified. So what? He still obtained the weapons legally. I ask once again for anyone going down this track to compare the gun deaths in the US with the gun deaths in the UK. The difference is blatantly obvious. DtG |
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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far From: robomatic Date: 03 Oct 17 - 05:58 PM My favorite quote for the NRA crowd is from John Sandford: "Guns don't kill people, poeple kill people. . . Guns just make it really really easy." As for the idea that this stuff didn't happen before, check out the massacre in Bath, Michigan, in the 1930s. Bath hasn't been the same since. We've got more overall access to events now, and a blaring media. It seems that this latest killer, Paddock, had no precursor signs. Well, his father was a top wanted criminal for one thing, and for another, we don't have all the facts yet. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far From: Big Al Whittle Date: 03 Oct 17 - 06:00 PM its their choice Dave. It a foreign country - they do things differently there. the similarities are superficial. you can't superimpose your values on America - any more than the Americans could convince Iraq and Afghanistan to change just by invading them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 03 Oct 17 - 06:23 PM Leeneia, be careful. It would be a harsh world that treated people as apparently sane as the LV perp was as though they were about to commit atrocities. As I've said here before, I'm ok with Americans slaughtering each other. I'd just prefer the victims to be, say, white supremacists and NRA types rather than women, kids and the disadvantaged. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far From: mg Date: 03 Oct 17 - 06:54 PM how will you know which women are white supremacists and nra types? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far From: Donuel Date: 03 Oct 17 - 08:12 PM So far everything about the weapons are 100% LEGAL so what? I'll tell you, its easy as hell to get them and legally modify them with a part that costs 49.99 in the US. Who else wants to avoid the issue because its too soon to talk about it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far From: Kampervan Date: 04 Oct 17 - 01:14 AM Just for the record, the ownership of rifles, as well as shotguns, is still perfectly legal in the UK. it's just that we have very tight control over who can own them and how they're stored. The UK banned handguns in 1997, but citizens are still able to own and shoot some shotguns and rifles with a license. Shotguns and rifles may be licensed by applying for a certificate through the local police force, according to the government's guide on gun-licensing law. The local authority will carry out a series of checks — including interviews, criminal-records checks, and a visit to the person's property — before granting permission. For firearms other than a shotgun, applicants must give police a "good reason" for wanting to own one. Hunting or being a member of a shooting club, for example, might be seen as good reasons. Self-defence won't be considered a valid reason. Semiautomatic firearms — guns that will keep firing one round every time you pull the trigger — are legal as long as the size of the cartridge they are designed to fire are no bigger than .22 inches in diameter. Shotguns are legal at long as they can't hold more than three shotgun shells – including the one in the chamber if it's a pump-action or semiautomatic shotgun. There's no such restriction for rifles. Now take a look at some of guns that you can buy. Most people think that you can only own shotguns where the shells are loaded by hand (popular in clay shooting, for example), but you can actually own and use semiautomatic shotguns, such as a Benelli M4. The Ruger 10/22 is one of the most popular rifles for new shooters in the UK. It's a semiautomatic rifle that has been in production since 1964. Remington says that their model Model 700 bolt-action rifle is the most popular sporting rifle ever made, with over 5 million sold. It's popular with police forces all over the world. The Beretta ARX 160 is a military assault rifle used by the Italian army. The a semiautomatic version chambered in .22 LR can be used in the UK. There are quite a few semiautomatic .22 LR versions of military rifles that you can buy in the UK, including the Heckler & Koch MP5 and this Heckler & Koch HK416, a version of the AR15 rifle that is used by special forces around the world ... ... and you can now even something very close to an AR-15 made by Smith and Wesson. It's called the M & P 15-22 and is based on the real AR15, which is itself the basis for the rifles used by many militaries around the world. You can even get an UZI in .22LR. Here's the hugely powerful Steyr HS 50 Cal. If you've got £5,000 and access to a shooting range big enough, you can have one in the UK. You can only use it at limited number of specialist shooting ranges. You can even own the British-made Accuracy International sniper rifle. It holds the record for the longest confirmed sniper kill in history and is yours for £23,000. It's also possible to get some guns that look like handguns, but are actually legal because they've been specially lengthened to get around the restrictions on short-barreled guns. The GSG 1911 long-barrel pistol has a lengthened barrel and a fixed "counterweight rod" at the back which means it gets around the handgun ban. The same goes for the Taurus LBR revolver, which has a 12-inch barrel and a permanently fixed "wrist support." You can own the pump-action Mossberg 500 too — just as long as it can only hold no more than two cartridges plus one in the chamber. Punt guns were used in the 19th century to hunt waterfowl. It's still possible to pick them up second hand. And finally, you can get a custom rifle made for you by the British gun-maker Holland and Holland – like the one below that is chambered in .700 Nitro Express. The gun will cost you a couple hundred-thousand pounds and each round will set you back about £100. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far From: Backwoodsman Date: 04 Oct 17 - 02:45 AM Wise words here... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far From: Joe Offer Date: 04 Oct 17 - 03:26 AM I couldn't believe it when I first heard it, but then I moved into a very conservative area and found it to be true. The extremists in the NRA have a frightening interpretation of the Second Amendment. The amendment says this:
People in my area really believe this, and it really frightens me. I'd prefer to use the ballot box to protect myself from the government getting out of hand. I have no idea how to protect myself from self-righteous vigilantes with guns. -Joe- P.S. Backwoodsman linked to a very good article - (click) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far From: Dave the Gnome Date: 04 Oct 17 - 03:55 AM you can't superimpose your values on America But I am doing no such thing, Al. I have just asked people to look at the number of gun related deaths in the USA vs the UK and ask themselves why there is such a huge difference. I have no wish to impose anything on anyone and just want those supporting the US gun culture to work out for themselves why these tragedies happen for more frequently in the US than they do in the UK. DtG |
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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far From: Backwoodsman Date: 04 Oct 17 - 04:52 AM There's more than a single factor in play Dave. You're point about comparative gun-deaths is correct, I've made the exact same point myself. But the huge difference between the UK and the US isn't just that we have far more stringent, and firmly applied gun-laws, it's about mindset. From the moment they're born, Americans have it rammed into their brains that the 'Mad-Dog Killers' and the 'Bad Guys' are coming for them, and that they need guns to protect themselves. Add that to their lax gun-laws and the easy availability of firearms, and you get what they've got. Here in the UK, as Acorn says, gun-licensing is very strictly controlled, and the use to which a gun can be put is very limited. So there are comparatively few guns held by civilians, compared to the US. And the mindset of having a gun to protect ourselves against 'The Bad Guys' coming into our homes to steal our laptops and Blu-Ray players isn't there because, over here, the 'Bad Guys' know the chances of being faced by a terrified householder waving a gun at them are virtually nil, and that our police don't carry guns. Therefore, the 'Bad Guys' themselves don't go armed - they don't need to! Add to that the fact that carrying any kind of weapon in the commission of a crime carries an automatic doubling of the sentence for the crime, and you have a very good deterrent. Americans 'need' guns because many (most?) people have guns. They're brainwashed by the culture of guns. They are made fearful by their own culture, and by the propaganda of the NRA and its cohorts and adherents. There's a lot of money in guns, and that's how the NRA like it. It's not the fault of the average American - he/she doesn't know any better, and they can't even begin to conceive of a place where ordinary decent people neither want, nor 'need' guns. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far From: Dave the Gnome Date: 04 Oct 17 - 05:52 AM That is all true, BWM but where and how did the 'split' occur? Presumably sometime in the past something happened in the US to establish this gun culture that not only did not happen in the UK but did not seem to happen in any other civilized country. As you quite rightly say it is not the fault of the average person. All the Americans I have met both here and in the States are ordinary, decent folk who I am sure would support any move to make their country a safer place. Why can the leaders not start to wean people off a culture that kills thousands? DtG |
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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far From: Big Al Whittle Date: 04 Oct 17 - 06:02 AM its not just a culture myth. though is it? Have you seen the Crime and Investigation channel.....quite frequently the bad guy is coming for them. of course there are the stars of the homicidal galaxy...Bundy, Mark Chapman...but who the fuck is ready for the Fartsville Monster, from Bollocks County, Mississippi ( quiet little place, a great town to bring kids up in)....92 victims so far, time to call in behavioural scientists to tell you that they haven't got a clue? you can buy two bungalows with swimming pools and four bedrooms in Florida for the price of my humble abode...but who would bloody want one? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far From: Stu Date: 04 Oct 17 - 06:16 AM "Taking away guns gives control to governments" So much to unravel in this statement. It's an admission that democracy is a sham and force of arms and the violent imposition of an aggressor's will is the only way for society to function. Except society won't function under these conditions, as everyone disagrees to some level about HOW a society should function and if the only way to resolve these conflicts is with force means society has collapsed... there will be no rule of law, just individuals acting according to their own will. It's one thing defending a democracy with force of arms, another threatening it from within because you don't like the way it's going. A democracy operates on consensus and a society agrees to give a government control for the common good and is changed via a vote. Of course this doesn't always work, but the idea that a civilised society cannot organise itself to look after its own citizens is an insidious one, especially in an established democracy such as the US. This viewpoint is so utterly bleak and I wonder how many actually share it in the US? A degree of this belligerence is demonstrated by Trump and it's why the US is no longer seen as leader of the free world outside it's borders. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far From: Big Al Whittle Date: 04 Oct 17 - 06:43 AM shouldn't governments have control? isn't that a funtion of government? if you are governed, you are controlled |
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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far From: Donuel Date: 04 Oct 17 - 06:50 AM Legislation needs to be passed Heroes are needed from the gun cultire and the urbanite. If you knew you were sick you could do some things to get better. If you knew you were lied to you could learn the truth. If you knew you were brainwashed you would be a little less brainwashed Re read some posts and see who is sick and doesn't know. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far From: beardedbruce Date: 04 Oct 17 - 08:30 AM DavetheGnome, I posted earlier: ----------------------------------------------------------------------- from Iain's clicky: " Scotland has about 75,000 licensed firearms and shotguns. England and Wales even more, with about 1.8 million in circulation. And these guns have impact." so, UK 1,875.000 firearms, 30 homicides by guns 0.000016 killed per gun USA 300,000,000+ firearms 5100 homicides by guns <0.000017 killed per gun ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The number of people murdered PER GUN in the UK is not much different from the number per gun murdered in the US. So, the people in the UK are not so different- they just have less access to guns, so they move to other means to kill people. Here in the US, the preferred means of suicide, when guns are not available, seems to be deliberate car accidents: A lot more dangerous to the rest of society. How many innocents are killed on the road each year? Backwoodsman, You state:"Here in the UK, as Acorn says, gun-licensing is very strictly controlled, and the use to which a gun can be put is very limited. So there are comparatively few guns held by civilians, compared to the US." Yet there are just about as many murders PER GUN in the UK as in the USA- So obviously all that careful vetting of gun owners has no effect. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Las Vegas - 59 dead so far From: Dave the Gnome Date: 04 Oct 17 - 08:48 AM BeardedBruce So, the people in the UK are not so different- they just have less access to guns That is the whole point surely. Less guns = less murders. It is not people that are in the wrong. It is the legislation that allows free access to firearms to anyone and therefore to more nutcases. As to so they move to other means to kill people. Well, I'm not sure where to start with that one. Firstly, the gun has been the preferred tool of death since its introduction. Secondly, the gun is more likely to cause death than any of these 'other means' you allude to. Finally, rate of intentional homicide, by any method, is still many times higher in the USA than it is in the UK. The only difference I can see that accounts for such disparity is the gun culture. DtG |
