BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Oct 17 - 04:23 AM

Yes I can. Another thing I can do is avoid getting sucked into your stupid games. It is highly hypocritical of you, of all people, to defend the posts of a serially rude sniper. Let?s talk about issues around Catalonia.

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Iains
Date: 17 Oct 17 - 09:08 AM

Two Catelonian Independence leaders jailed for sedition. This EU democracy is working rather well! It will hardly be oil on troubled waters. Austria taking a hike to the right, and Brexit marching blithely on. Greece and Cyprus not impressed. The course of European Unity seems to have found a few bumps in the road.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/catalonia-independence-leaders-jailed-spain-judge-sedition-jordi-sanchez-jordi-cu

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Oct 17 - 09:54 AM

It is not playing "stupid games" to ask you to say exactly what it is that you claim is idiocy.
It is normal discussion.
Instead of calling people names, say what you disagree with and why.

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Oct 17 - 05:35 PM

Just go away, Keith. Your idiocy is crystal clear to all here bar two or three other fools. No games, Keith. I've picked up your ball and taken it home. You lose. Not interested. Go on, try me again to see if I am.

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Oct 17 - 03:02 AM

Answer the fucking Question!

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Oct 17 - 03:23 AM

Ake: There's no point getting shirty with him. As I quoted earlier, he has been very clear on the basis he uses for arguments:

From: Iains - PM
Date: 13 Oct 17 - 12:05 PM
. . .why do you continue to quote your opinions as though they are incontestable facts? You fool very few here.
From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 13 Oct 17 - 12:21 PM
Because that?s what I do. Live with it.

I love all these extra question marks he's throwing in, maybe he things he's The Riddler!

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Oct 17 - 04:59 AM

Your idiocy is crystal clear to all here bar two or three other fools.

None of us are fools, and you are unable to identify any "idiocy" in any post.

As ever you resort to abuse because you are utterly incapable of making a case or any kind of reply.

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Oct 17 - 05:50 AM

Shut up. You are pointless.

The question marks are being inserted ever since I updated my iPad to the latest IOS version. They replace every apostrophe and quote mark I try to use and trying to edit them out is useless. I really don?t know why I should have to explain these things, Nigel.

Oh yes I do, as soon as I remember who I?m talking to...

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Oct 17 - 06:13 AM

The question marks are being inserted ever since I updated my iPad to the latest IOS version. They replace every apostrophe and quote mark I try to use and trying to edit them out is useless. I really don?t know why I should have to explain these things, Nigel.

Have you tried hitting 'preview' under the reply box, and then editing as necessary within that box?

For some systems it may be necessary to ensure you're using a valid character for the apostrophe (a straight apostrophe rather than an 'inverted comma').
Any reasonably educated person should be able to find what the fault is, and correct it.

To miss-quote Wilde:
To make this error once is unfortunate. to continue doing so seems like carelessness!

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Iains
Date: 18 Oct 17 - 10:28 AM

Nigel Parsons. Well played Sir.

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Oct 17 - 10:31 AM

To miss-quote Wilde:
To make this error once is unfortunate. to continue doing so seems like carelessness!

To quote myself: to make an issue of this inconsequential matter is the work of a fool.

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Iains
Date: 18 Oct 17 - 10:36 AM

"to make an issue of this inconsequential matter is the work of a fool."This takes care of most of your pots then, does it not?

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Oct 17 - 11:44 AM

How does that pan out, Iains?

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Oct 17 - 11:54 AM

"Have you tried hitting 'preview' under the reply box, and then editing as necessary within that box?"

Why yes I have, Nigel, and I mentioned it in a post in the brexit thread that you posted to several times after the mention. Tsk, Nigel. Any reasonably well-educated person shouldn't have to be told the same thing twice within the space of a few hours. Bet you didn't listen at school either, just like your charmless pals Teribus and Iains, who pride themselves on their ignorance of teaching.

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Oct 17 - 08:17 AM

The feds are going to take control of Catalonia starting Saturday, removing its autonomy.

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Oct 17 - 09:02 AM

The feds are going to take control of Catalonia starting Saturday, removing its autonomy.

Sounds like Spain is following the EU general view. Any state or part state can have autonomy, as long as they don't insist on having autonomy.

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Oct 17 - 10:39 AM

Autonomy is not the same as statehood. Autonomous regions within states are absolutely fine with the EU, so I fail to see your point. If Catalonia becomes a state it will no longer be in the EU. It will have to reapply, and, for several reasons, will find it next to impossible to join. First, a unanimous vote by all the member countries is needed for a new member to join. I can't see Spain voting yes somehow. Second, there are other countries with unsettled regions such as France with the Basques. Neither the EU nor Spain would not want an eased path for Catalonia to give others ideas. Third, the whole concept of the EU is predicated on closer harmonisation, countries splitting apart being completely at odds with that. The odds are that an independent Catalonia would be out in the cold for a very long time. That prospect alone would be sufficient, I reckon, to lose an independence referendum. Spain should cool it and allow Catalonia a legal referendum. I don't believe in 'em, as I've often said, but the two sides are locked into an impossible, conflicted situation for the foreseeable future without one and there's no other way. I don't think Catalonia is going anywhere, whatever happens.

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Oct 17 - 10:41 AM

Neither the EU nor France is what I meant.

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Oct 17 - 10:42 AM

And an unwarranted double negative in that sentence to boot. My eyes are dim...

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Iains
Date: 19 Oct 17 - 01:30 PM

Autonomy=a self-governing country or region.
freedom from external control or influence; independence.

synonyms:        self-government, independence, self-rule, home rule, sovereignty, self-determination, freedom, autarchy;

I do like a contradictory dictionary explanation.

I believe Catalonia's interpretation differs markedly from that of Spain and the EU.

This contretemps is still building a head of steam. Never mind it all aids brexit.

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Oct 17 - 02:17 PM

Well it's simpler to look up what autonomy means in Spain rather than look for contradictory definitions in dictionaries. In fact, it means different things for different autonomous communities, each of which has its own constitution. Spain is, in effect, more of a federation than anything. Whichever community you're talking about, the degree of autonomy is considerable. The Basque Country and Catalonia characterise themselves as nationalities and are, in most regards, the most "autonomous" of the regions. We can all read wiki. And I don't see what it has to do with Brexit right now, frankly.

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Iains
Date: 19 Oct 17 - 04:28 PM

It would probably make more sense to ask those in Catelonia what they mean by autonomy. They may or may not accept other definitions.

If you cannot see any connection between Catelonia and Brexit then frankly you must be nice but dim.

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Oct 17 - 05:59 PM

You've seen the word "Catalonia" so many times in this thread, correctly spelled. You are a slow learner, aren't you. A bit, er, dim, maybe?

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Oct 17 - 02:49 AM

" Neither the EU nor Spain would not want an eased path for Catalonia to give others ideas. Third, the whole concept of the EU is predicated on closer harmonisation, countries splitting apart being completely at odds with that." - Shaw

Totally wrong Shaw - the EU wants to do away with the "nation states" of Europe as part of it's "closer harmonisation" it does not want to have to deal with national governments and their agendas. The EU wants an organisation of smaller regional blocks that are damned sight easier to bully, coerce and control. That chap all you Labour Party supporters voted for (Three times) Tony Blair tried his damnedest to set the wheel rolling in the UK with devolution for Wales and Scotland which was supposed to have been followed up by "regional parliaments" in England - Thankfully that bit of it did not happen (In England they were far too sensible to be allow themselves to be saddled with an additional layer of government that they woud have to pay for in return for no tangible benefit to anyone except the "professional politicians" who would stick their snouts in the newly erected troughs).

Don't quite remember you coming out with any of this during discussions on the Scottish Independence referendum Shaw. Everything you said about Catalonia applied equally well to Scotland. Only thing with the SNP is that on the back of the EU referendum result they want a second independence referendum because they say they want to stay in the EU - totally ignoring the fact that Scotland per se has never been a member state of the EU - Fact is if Scotland, or Catalonia, votes for independence they are OUT of the EU. In both cases, the EU HAS TO stand apart as the matter relates to the domestic, internal affairs of the "nation state" and at present it is those "nation states" that pay into the coffers of the EU to keep the EU Commission's gravy train on the road - so guess who the EU are not going to upset at present? Especially as their second largest contributor is headed for the exit. Do you see the connection between what is occurring in Spain, in the EU and with Brexit now Shaw?

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Iains
Date: 20 Oct 17 - 03:49 AM

"You've seen the word "Catalonia" so many times in this thread, correctly spelled. You are a slow learner, aren't you. A bit, er, dim, maybe?"

My oh my! What a clever little lad we are shaw. Is that really the best you could come up with.
" I was merely suggesting that you worked to your strengths""You demonstrate that, basically, you understand nothing about anything. That's a weakness, so do us a favour and stick to what you're good at"

Well follow your own advice and let me be the first to congratulate you on your departure from this forum. Allow me to assure you, you will not be missed.

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Oct 17 - 04:23 AM

You are indulging in the received, mythological wisdom that sez the EU wants to become one big, happy country. Once your argument is predicated on such arrant nonsense the whole thing collapses like a house of cards. As for Scotland/Catalonia, it may well be instructive to make comparisons, but not at the moment, as the fundamental difference is that the UK is leaving the EU whereas Spain isn't.

"Dim" could mean misspelling the name of a Spanish region incorrectly seven times in one thread when all around you are spelling it correctly. Best not to call someone else dim when you yourself exhibit such a deficiency.

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Oct 17 - 04:50 AM

"You are indulging in the received, mythological wisdom that sez the EU wants to become one big, happy country."

Ah so they do not need two parliament buildings then Shaw. So why are they paying for them?

There is no need whatsoever for a European Parliament at all if the member nation states are sacrosanct - what can a European Parliament do that individual national parliaments and the Council of Ministers cannot?

No need at all for the European Commission - Everything can be done by the individual states through discussion and agreement in the Council of Ministers.

No need for a European Defence Force. But they are working damn hard to force that through. To what end? What can it do that cannot already be done through NATO?

Haven't you read the EU's Aims as stipulated in the Treaty of Lisbon Shaw?

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 20 Oct 17 - 04:52 AM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 20 Oct 17 - 04:23 AM
You are indulging in the received, mythological wisdom that sez the EU wants to become one big, happy country.
I don't think anyone actually believes that (as stated).
The EU, as an impersonal edifice, can have no wishes. What we are worried about are the plans and intentions of certain sectors which are currently controlling the EU. They seem to have a wish for "one big country" as they make announcements about wanting a single top level finance minister (hence a single currency throughout), and a single EU army.
Clearly they are not bothered with whether they have a "Big happy country". Just look at how they have treated Greece.

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Oct 17 - 08:05 AM

The EU is actually half a billion persons, so not quite so impersonal. Half a billion people in 28 nations represents a very wide diversity of viewpoints and aspirations. Decisions are made by all 28 nations, of which we are currently one, and a very influential one at that - until the current fiasco started. You talk as if the EU makes big decisions in secret in a hidden garret somewhere then imposes them on the unsuspecting half billion. Well we are the EU and so far we have agreed with almost every new law, rule and regulation, demurring at very few and modifying very many via our constructive input. Your talk is part of the leave side's mythology that was dishonestly foisted on the British public. As for that EU army, as long as the UK is a member it can never happen. Ironic, innit, that it will be far more on the cards after we leave and no longer have the veto as we do now. And you can bet your life we'll have to be a part of it. Unintended consequences, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 20 Oct 17 - 08:28 AM

Well we are the EU and so far we have agreed with almost every new law, rule and regulation, demurring at very few and modifying very many via our constructive input.
No, we are not the EU (unless you are speaking from your viewpoint as a staunch pro-European, and even then saying "we" is far too inclusive). We are currently a part of it.
We have gone along with many of the new laws, not because we agree with them, but because we were (or knew we would be) outvoted.
A little pragmatism goes a long way, but there comes the point when the people of the UK (or at least the majority of those prepared to vote) decided we did not have sufficient clout to avoid being dragged into a "United Europe" so we are getting out.

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Oct 17 - 09:47 AM

Not true, Nigel. Out of thousands of EU laws we have disagreed with some points in about fifty of them. The figure is around five percent of the laws that we have wholly or partly disagreed with. It is not a simple matter of being "outvoted." We are an integral part of the lawmaking process. And, by implication, you accept that we do get to vote on things, therefore taking part in collective, democratic decision-making. You don't get to vote on things being dictatorially imposed. Have some numbers, gleaned from the Full Facts website from June 2016:

Since 1999, the UK voted no on laws subsequently passed at EU level 56 times (2%)

The UK abstained on laws subsequently passed 70 times (3%)

The UK voted yes on laws subsequently passed 2,466 times (95%)

But the UK doesn't just vote. Along with all the other countries it negotiates those laws. The numbers don't show laws that failed to pass, which on occasion would partly or mainly have been as a result of our influence.

You may not feel like you're a part of the EU but you are. The EU is an association of citizens in 28 countries. I don't like the idea of being a capitalist, but I am one as I don't live in a cave eating rabbits and wild fruits.



As for your suggested reason for the referendum result, I don't really think you are in a position to read the minds of millions of voters.

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Oct 17 - 10:25 AM

"The figure is about five percent of EU laws" would have made more sense.

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Oct 17 - 10:40 AM

No it wouldn't.

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Oct 17 - 12:36 PM

Well I would hardly expect you of all people to recognise literacy. If you have nothing to say just keep your mouth shut, there's a good fellow.

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Iains
Date: 21 Oct 17 - 03:35 AM

This latest jolly jape will go down well.


https://www.thelocal.es/20171020/tusk-no-space-for-eu-intervention-in-catalonia


http://www.euronews.com/2017/10/21/madrid-poised-to-activate-emergency-rule-in-catalonia

I wonder when the little squeaker above will learn some manners?

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Oct 17 - 05:08 AM

You don't do irony, do you?

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Iains
Date: 22 Oct 17 - 11:03 AM

A few more for the party.


https://www.rt.com/news/407437-lombardy-veneto-vote-autonomy/

And the violence during the recent polling in Catalunya was apparently false news.(The scenes I saw seemed very genuine.

false news!

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Oct 17 - 11:22 AM

More problems for the EU! Thanks for the links Iains.

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Iains
Date: 22 Oct 17 - 02:34 PM

EU Federalism

          One treaty to rule them all,
          one treaty to find them,
          One treaty to bring them all
          and in the darkness bind them.


http://www.spectrezine.org/europe/CAEF.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Oct 17 - 03:43 AM

"Decisions are made by all 28 nations, of which we are currently one, and a very influential one at that"

Care to tell us WHEN the UK has been influential as far as the EU goes?

" As for that EU army, as long as the UK is a member it can never happen. Ironic, innit, that it will be far more on the cards after we leave and no longer have the veto as we do now. And you can bet your life we'll have to be a part of it."

Care to explain why we will "have to be part of it"? Those seeking to establish an EU army, are they the same European nations who have consistently failed to meet their obligations towards NATO? If they cannot stump up the required 2% GDP for defence with regard to NATO what on earth makes you, or anyone else for that matter, think that they will be prepared to pay for a European force? Or does the EU hope that they can fudge that by staying in NATO?

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Iains
Date: 23 Oct 17 - 05:57 AM

Don.t think this is on the menu at hotel corbinista.

The World Socialists

So much for international brotherhood and unity.

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Oct 17 - 06:16 AM

Well we've been influential in preventing an EU army since you mention it. We've vetoed it.   😂

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Oct 17 - 07:36 AM

"we've been influential in preventing an EU army since you mention it. We've vetoed it."?

Really? When did we do that? I believe our Defence Secretary has stated quite clearly that "We WILL veto it", but that has not happened as yet.

But this is how the EU Commission works:

"EU Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker has spoken of the possibility of a ?common military force? at a meeting of EU leaders in Bratislava, to which Britain was not invited."

That is how influential the UK is in Europe. 😂

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Oct 17 - 07:38 AM

So it would appear that no examples of the UK being influential in Europe can be produced from a term of membership that spans some 43 years - Oh dear what a pity, too bad, never mind 😂😂😂

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Oct 17 - 10:16 AM

From wiki.

"Article 42.2 provides for complete integration, which would require unanimity in the European Council of heads of state or government and has as such been blocked by the United Kingdom, which is the main opponent of EU defence integration, in particular. (The United Kingdom is however scheduled to withdraw from the union in 2019.)"

Yeah, yeah, blocked, vetoed, whatevvah. Obstinately the same result. Once we are out we can't block/veto it any more and it will happen. And the reason they don't invite us to meetings any more is that they don't want a country that's leaving to be involved in future decision-making. Duh. If we stayed in it would never happen. That's the constitution. Unanimity or not at all. Unintended consequences ahead, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Oct 17 - 02:49 PM

"the reason they don't invite us to meetings any more is that they don't want a country that's leaving to be involved in future decision-making."

But as current members they will still expect us to pay for it - but have no fear THAT is not going to happen.

The EU without the UK can do whatever it wants with regard to a "European Defence Force". It will, be a mirror, of the EU Commission itself, inefficient and ineffective. Most countries, members of the EU, will not abandon NATO which is the longstanding and proven organisation upon which the peace and security of Europe depends. The UK is definitely leaving Europe in 2019, it has no intention at all in leaving NATO.

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Oct 17 - 03:03 PM

"The EU without the UK can do whatever it wants with regard to a 'European Defence Force'"

Correct. And that is not a good thing. But while we've been a member it can never have happened, which is a good thing and a very good example of our influence.

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Iains
Date: 23 Oct 17 - 03:42 PM

Catalonia says it will ignore orders from Spanish government when it imposes direct rule. Oh Dear!

Italian regions to begin talks on autonomy after Veneto, Lombardy referendums. Oh Dear!

'Czech Donald Trump' election win ? ?a real slam at the establishment?

The natives are getting restless.

The road to european integration is paved with potholes!
If all continues like this disintegration will create an exit for everyone. Will exit precede brexit?

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Oct 17 - 04:16 PM

Oh dear, oh dear, guess what change the original treaty of Lisbon attempted to bring in. At the moment the EU requires the unanimous agreement of all member states in the Council of Ministers, what was tried on was a change that allowed things to go through with only a two-thirds majority. 28 member states, two-thirds of 28 is 19 - How many non-contributor member states are there again? Oh yes there are 19 of them - how convenient for the EU Commission who can blackmail those in receipt of EU cash into voting the way they want. First France, then the Netherlands and then Ireland rejected the Treaty of Lisbon. This was the Treaty of Lisbon that was a step too far for the electorate of the UK, the one that prompted Gordon Brown to promise the electorate an EU membership referendum, of course he reneged on that promise and the EU Commission got their amended and much watered down version of the Treaty of Lisbon through the back door - No two-thirds provision YET - but it hasn't gone away.

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Oct 17 - 05:16 PM

There can be no European army while we are members. Impossible. We block it under EU rules. Once we leave we lose that influence and it will likely come about. It really is very simple, Teribus.

"The natives are getting restless."

Nice piece of imperialist claptrap peppered with a dose of racism. Perfect. Why am I not surprised?