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BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation

Keith A of Hertford 28 Oct 17 - 04:49 AM
Nigel Parsons 27 Oct 17 - 03:50 PM
Iains 27 Oct 17 - 02:38 PM
Steve Shaw 27 Oct 17 - 02:29 PM
akenaton 27 Oct 17 - 11:33 AM
Nigel Parsons 27 Oct 17 - 11:24 AM
Stu 27 Oct 17 - 10:57 AM
Iains 27 Oct 17 - 10:38 AM
Nigel Parsons 27 Oct 17 - 07:35 AM
akenaton 27 Oct 17 - 06:30 AM
Teribus 27 Oct 17 - 05:08 AM
Iains 27 Oct 17 - 04:19 AM
Teribus 26 Oct 17 - 07:03 PM
Steve Shaw 26 Oct 17 - 06:21 PM
Steve Shaw 26 Oct 17 - 06:05 PM
Iains 26 Oct 17 - 04:13 AM
Steve Shaw 26 Oct 17 - 03:43 AM
Teribus 26 Oct 17 - 02:37 AM
Steve Shaw 25 Oct 17 - 09:23 PM
bobad 25 Oct 17 - 09:02 PM
Steve Shaw 25 Oct 17 - 08:35 PM
bobad 25 Oct 17 - 08:17 PM
Steve Shaw 25 Oct 17 - 07:33 PM
bobad 25 Oct 17 - 05:48 PM
Steve Shaw 25 Oct 17 - 05:03 PM
akenaton 25 Oct 17 - 04:51 PM
Steve Shaw 25 Oct 17 - 02:44 PM
Iains 25 Oct 17 - 02:39 PM
Steve Shaw 25 Oct 17 - 02:35 PM
Teribus 25 Oct 17 - 02:02 PM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Oct 17 - 01:52 PM
Steve Shaw 25 Oct 17 - 11:59 AM
Iains 25 Oct 17 - 04:09 AM
Teribus 25 Oct 17 - 03:43 AM
Steve Shaw 24 Oct 17 - 08:09 PM
Steve Shaw 24 Oct 17 - 07:14 PM
Teribus 24 Oct 17 - 06:24 PM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Oct 17 - 02:10 PM
Iains 24 Oct 17 - 01:10 PM
Steve Shaw 24 Oct 17 - 12:29 PM
Steve Shaw 24 Oct 17 - 12:09 PM
Teribus 24 Oct 17 - 11:19 AM
Nigel Parsons 24 Oct 17 - 09:59 AM
Steve Shaw 24 Oct 17 - 09:22 AM
Teribus 24 Oct 17 - 08:02 AM
Steve Shaw 24 Oct 17 - 06:00 AM
The Sandman 24 Oct 17 - 04:27 AM
Teribus 24 Oct 17 - 04:14 AM
Iains 24 Oct 17 - 04:07 AM
Steve Shaw 23 Oct 17 - 05:16 PM
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Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Oct 17 - 04:49 AM

Was there similar international condemnation of Scottish independence?
I do not remember any.
Why has our government defended Spanish unity when we believe in self determination for our own regions?

Is it because Catalonia is wealthy and prosperous? Its independence would cost Spain not remove a burden.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 27 Oct 17 - 03:50 PM

Steve Shaw.
You really ought to review your own posts, or possibly post what you mean. Your latest post on this discussion:

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 27 Oct 17 - 02:29 PM
When I posted first thing this morning the Spanish government had not decided what to do, following discussions yesterday. They were vacillating. They have now made their decision, hours after I posted that. They are no longer vacillating. OK, chaps? And you are stalking, Nigel. Discuss the issues and stop this interminable nitpicking which makes you look extremely foolish.


Is discussing a totally different parliament to the one you mentioned this morning:

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 26 Oct 17 - 06:21 PM
In fact, the Catalan Parliament is vacillating today. Tomorrow could be quite interesting. Both sides have handled this really badly.


In case it needs explaining, the "Spanish government" is not the "Catalan Parliament".

As for "looking foolish", I think you've got the wrong party, yet again!


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Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Iains
Date: 27 Oct 17 - 02:38 PM

"?For the European Commission", as President Juncker has reiterated repeatedly,2 this is an internal matter for Spain that has to be dealt with in line with the constitutional order of Spain."

?We also reiterate the legal position held by this Commission as well as by its predecessors. If a referendum were to be organised in line with the Spanish Constitution it would mean that the territory leaving would find itself outside of the European Union.

Beyond the purely legal aspects of this matter, the Commission believes that these are times for unity and stability, not divisiveness and fragmentation.
We call on all relevant players to now move very swiftly from confrontation to dialogue."


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Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Oct 17 - 02:29 PM

When I posted first thing this morning the Spanish government had not decided what to do, following discussions yesterday. They were vacillating. They have now made their decision, hours after I posted that. They are no longer vacillating. OK, chaps? And you are stalking, Nigel. Discuss the issues and stop this interminable nitpicking which makes you look extremely foolish.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Oct 17 - 11:33 AM

"

The essence of the post-1945 European settlement is the integrity of states. After centuries of horrific wars, stable statehood is the rock on which Europe?s security rests. Allow old grievances to recur, old feuds to revive and old boundaries to shift, and chaos will ensue. Besides, that other rock of stability, the European Union, relies on states being able to enforce EU diktats on subordinate regions without challenge.

If only politics were that simple.

Just as the EU commission in Brussels has become a parody of the pre-Reformation Roman church, so aversion to central power is destabilising states across the continent. Economies globalise and national governments centralise, and as a result regional identities become more assertive and belligerent. Not just Catalans but Scots, Basques, Corsicans, Flemings, Silesians and Venetians show no signs of diminishing their plea for more autonomy, whether heavy or ?lite?. The Catalonians are merely the vanguard of a movement against the clumsy bureaucratic elites that rule Brussels as they do Madrid ? not to mention London. Hence it is pointless for Madrid simply to read the rule book and the riot act to solve this crisis.





The EU is foolish to think this is none of its business. Its blundering diplomacy has already lost it the United Kingdom



It is clear that the Catalan president, Carles Puigdemont, is desperate to avoid a cataclysmic break with Madrid, knowing that his own people are deeply divided in their separatism. There has to be the sort of deal that there was with the Basques in the 1990s ? perhaps even more radical. Spain is already among the most devolved states in Europe. Its recent ham-fisted treatment of Barcelona demands it become even more so, possibly with a new Catalan constitution that can be put to local plebiscite.

The EU is foolish to think this is none of its business. Its blundering diplomacy has already lost it the United Kingdom. No other nation dares hold a referendum on exit. Separation beckons from Poles, Czechs and Hungarians. The German-dominated eurozone has blighted the Greek and Spanish economies and is, in large part, to blame for the present crisis. The EU cares as little for regional identity as it does for any sort of devolution. The Catalonian question is about Europe as much as it is about Spain.

? Simon Jenkins is a Guardian columnist


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Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 27 Oct 17 - 11:24 AM

"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter." (Winston Churchill)

"Many forms of Government have been tried, and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time." (Winston S Churchill, 11 November 1947)


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Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Stu
Date: 27 Oct 17 - 10:57 AM

"I predict an armed insurrection which will herald the end of the EU as we know it."

Priceless. You really should write for the telly.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Iains
Date: 27 Oct 17 - 10:38 AM

Catalonia has declared independence from Spain. Vacillating? The boy must be using a different dictionary to me!


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Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 27 Oct 17 - 07:35 AM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 26 Oct 17 - 06:21 PM
In fact, the Catalan Parliament is vacillating today.


In what way? What two positions were they moving back and forwards between?


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Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Oct 17 - 06:30 AM

I predict an armed insurrection which will herald the end of the EU as we know it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Oct 17 - 05:08 AM

The Catalan electorate number some 5.3 million.

In the informal referendum that sparked this crisis 1.98 million out of the 2.2 million votes cast were for independence - considering the circumstances and the situation that result should not come as any great surprise.

The Spanish Authorities confiscated and destroyed something like 300,000 ballot papers which if they replicated the ratio shown in the ballot pares counted - this would lift the YES vote to 2.1 million for YES, or just under 40% of the electorate who could be described as hardened supporters of Catalonian independence.

Those who are against independence will not have been affected at all by what has happened. But those who fall into the categories, "Don't Knows" and the "Undecided" may well have been influenced by what they saw and the impressions do not favour the Spanish Government. If you believe in human rights and basic freedom then the YES side in Catalonia may well now get the votes they require for independence.

Average voter turn-out in Spanish elections is 73.91%, which if translated to Catalonia means that 3.92 million people will vote, so NOW should those 2.1 million people vote the same way with a 73.91% turn-out that will mean the YES side will win with 53.6% for independence. If undecided voters were swayed then the percentage for independence goes up - THAT is what the Spanish Government has achieved by acting as it has.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Iains
Date: 27 Oct 17 - 04:19 AM

The only thing that has happened is that the lid has been put back on the kettle. Rest assured, it is still simmering nicely, and no doubt will boil over again in the future. The way the Spanish government has handled the situation is particularly inept and likely generated even more support for the independence movement.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Oct 17 - 07:03 PM

Don't know about both sides. The Spanish Government has handled it appallingly poorly.

This, I believe would have ended up as a complete and utter non-event had they let them hold their referendum, made the same case to the electorate of Catalonia that the "Better together Campaign" made to the electorate of Scotland and the result would have been a resounding NO to Catalan Independence.

As it was they waded in in the most heavy-handed manner, succeeded in injuring over 900 people who were displayed on television screens all over the world being denied what many in western Europe consider to be a basic human right and getting beaten in the process. The world will remember that, and I strongly suspect that the undecided voters of Catalonia will remember that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Oct 17 - 06:21 PM

In fact, the Catalan Parliament is vacillating today. Tomorrow could be quite interesting. Both sides have handled this really badly.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Oct 17 - 06:05 PM

The insulter-in-chief waddles along in the wake of problem poster numero uno. You could try discussing Catalonia. If you've heard of it, that is.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Iains
Date: 26 Oct 17 - 04:13 AM

For stevie blunder. A toon yo remind him of past "glories"


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KdOCWUgwiWs&list=RDKdOCWUgwiWs&t=6


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Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Oct 17 - 03:43 AM

Have a nice day yourself.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Oct 17 - 02:37 AM

😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 - Shaw, the person who comments on "childish posts" - 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 - "Shall we have a poll? 😂 Take it outside." - about as puerile as you can get.

Apart from Shaw who took up the description, only one person has ever referred to me as being ONE of the problem posters on this forum - that was Joe Offer. I have never, ever been admonished or warned about my posts by any moderator of this forum by PM or any other message. Shaw & Co., on the other hand have been rebuked in a very public manner on a number of occasions that I can recall.

By the way Shaw talking of pointless exercises. There would be no need for me to ask the people of Cornwall how they feel about the EU - they way they voted in the referendum told us that very clearly - of those who voted 57% wanted to LEAVE - that by the way is a majority stating that they want no part of being a member state of the EU.

On the EU, perhaps it is the name that's got Shaw hooked. European UNION, perhaps his ideological and brainwashed mind sees that word and immediately thinks it must be defended at all costs - he was after all a UNION activist.

Shall we take it outside? - 😂😂 Priceless!!!! - No wonder you wear shorts.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 09:23 PM

❤️😘❤️ ❌❌❌


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Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: bobad
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 09:02 PM

Well now, isn't it rich that a poster who is becoming rather obsessive about decrying another poster as a "problem poster" has himself been threatened with suspension for presumably being a problem poster himself. And accusing someone who points it out of trolling.....lol. Desperate to save face I guess.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 08:35 PM

Very good. You are so impressive. And you are lying, which you and I both know full well. Shall we have a poll? 😂 Take it outside. Now may I remind you that this thread isn't about you, old chap. Have you actually heard of Catalonia? Do you think it's about lonely cats, or cats alone, as in Home Alone? Maybe you do think that. At least, that's what I glean from the fact that you've had nothing to say about what the thread's about. So you wade in in your usual ignorant manner. You're trolling. No more from me on you.

I see that the ante is seriously being upped between Madrid and Catalonia today. The need for a neutral intermediary is crying out as never before. And the Davis clown is now suggesting that a deal could be signed a "nanosecond" after brexit. Jayz, we are in deep doodah!


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Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: bobad
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 08:17 PM

Gee Shaw, unlike you I have never been threatened with suspension. As for your allegations of me having posted simultaneously under two identities I can categorically state that is a lie. In consideration of your veiled threats regarding communications with the mods I remind you that I also have saved communications from them about you that are, not to put too fine a point on it, less than flattering in regards to your character. I will leave it at that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 07:33 PM

And how would you know? Joe and I discussed in private whether I should be suspended on the ONE occasion only, in all my years here, over posts concerning religion, in June 2016. The matter was resolved without further talk of suspension. I have kept all our exchanges. You, on the other hand, have on several occasions been the subject of discussions over your dishonest double identity before the rule change about guest posts below the line last year. You can't really deny this as I have kept all the exchanges I had with moderators on the matter. Naturally, I won't post them here as I respect the confidentiality of private communications, But what I can do, if necessary, is remind the mods of our exchanges and send them the archived messages. You have also been in the dock over your stalking behaviour. You need to consider having a moment of silence on all this. The exchanges I've had with the mods make you look very bad indeed. I will never make them public as I respect the spirit in which PMs are exchanged. But, believe me, you really do need to move on.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: bobad
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 05:48 PM

I note that the poster who has taken to worrying the term "problem poster" to death is the same who has admitted to having been threatened with suspension on more than one occasion. I wonder if the poster to whom he is referring has ever been similarly threatened.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 05:03 PM

I'll take that as a compliment. Now excuse me as I'm making a special biological study of worms and their holes.


Actually, I could use a few volunteers...


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Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 04:51 PM

Steve, you are beginning to remind me of the late unlamented "Muskets", they too thought they were frightfully clever, but in the event they turned out to be just just frightful.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 02:44 PM

You really don't do irony, do you?

"I do not have to claim any kind of education."

That sounds honest. Whatever kind you did have, it was rather deficient in the areas of teaching civility and good manners. Anything to say about Catalonia? Or even brexit if you like?


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Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Iains
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 02:39 PM

"Sorry, but your concepts, insulter-in-chief (is there a competition going on here for Problem Poster Of The Month?), are all theory and ignore reality."

But by your own admission you do not separate fact from fiction, so who are you to talk about the difference between fiction and reality?
What a funny little fellow you are shaw!

The "accolade?" problem poster and chief insulter belongs exclusively to you shaw. No-one else can come anywhere close, and far more to the point. who would want to?

I do not have to claim any kind of education. It makes no difference to me. A plumber, electrician carpenter can offer contributions on these threads that can leave yours way behind shaw.
Is it your feeling of inadequacy and inferiority lead you to boast continually about how well educated a scientist you are? Personally I could not give a rat's arse and I doubt anyone else could either.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 02:35 PM

Another childish Teribus post. Well, the people of my beloved Kernow (I come from Radcliffe, Lancs, actually) also wiped out the LibDems in two elections running in spite of the fact that the Tories are slaughtering our schools, shutting down our cottage hospitals, threatening hospital departments in the few main hospitals we have with closure, allowing huge, cheap estates to spring up everywhere despite lack of infrastructure (and next to no affordable homes included in that lot) and just letting the potholes in our country roads proliferate. Nowt so queer as folk. As Churchill said (OK if I quote him? Thought you'd approve of that at least....), if you want to know what's wrong with democracy, just spend five minutes talking to the average voter.


And Keith. If seven people in ten say bring back hanging, are they right just because it's seven in ten?


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Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 02:02 PM

Ah, Keith those 182,665 who voted Leave were probably those "Hooray-Henries" biologist Steve used to chat to about "flocks of grouse" and packs of vicious dogs in the heart of Kernow's hunting community whilst biting his tongue.

And with those figures Keith, Shaw will argue that there was a clear majority that elected to remain down there in his "beloved Kernow".


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Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 01:52 PM

The EU does return a little of our money as aid, but the EU decide what it must be spent on.
Cornwall voted 140,540 for Remain and 182,665 for Leave


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Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 11:59 AM

Sorry, but your concepts, insulter-in-chief (is there a competition going on here for Problem Poster Of The Month?), are all theory and ignore reality. The EU does not "control" regions by giving them money. Cornwall has received hundreds of millions of EU funding, but come down here and ask local people how they're being "controlled" by the EU and they'll ask you what the hell you're talking about. The rules and laws of the EU apply to member states which administer their regions accordingly and there is little sign of any dead hand of bureaucratic control where I live, one the regions of the UK that has benefited most from our being EU members. As for Teribus and his concepts, containing waffle about number plates (optional), flags (optional) and EU passports (extremely bloody useful at every European airport I've been to, which is a lot), they are not his at all as he has copied and pasted them from sources he has yet to divulge (I fully expect them to be an embarrassment if and when he does divulge). Your own understanding of them, after years of whatever education you claim for yourself, has led to a completely risible analogy with cranes. Would you like me to ask the mods to move it to the joke thread for you?


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Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Iains
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 04:09 AM

The Lisbon Treaty was clearly designed to both streamline and centralise decision making within the EU, or the more cynical would see it as nothing other than a power grab.

"The EU philosophy, as you are so keen to remind us, is for ever-closer integration. Fracturing of states works directly against that."
For a well educated scientist you appear sadly misinformed.
Small is easy, big is difficult. Simple analogy for simple minds:
a one tonne crane lift can be dealt with utilising various different pieces of machinery. A one hundred ton lift requires a dedicated crane.
Coercion can be easily applied to small administrative units, not so easily to Nation States.

I hope you can now grasp the very simple concept that Teribus outlined for you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 03:43 AM

"The EU does not "control" regions." - Odd that 30% to 35% of it's budget goes to controlling regions then isn't it Shaw.


THE EUROPEAN UNION IS FUNDAMENTALLY UNDEMOCRATIC AND CANNOT BE DEMOCRATISED

It is the absence at the level of the European Union of anything like the underlying national solidarity which binds Europe's Nation States together that makes the EU project, and especially the euro-currency scheme, so problematic and therefore unlikely to endure. The EU is a creation of powerful political, economic and bureaucratic elites, without popular legitimacy and authority, and is therefore fundamentally undemocratic. There is no European "demos," no European people, bound together by solidarities like those that bind nations and Nation States. Rather, the EU is made up of Western Europe's several nations and peoples. Every Nation State is both a monetary union and fiscal union. As a monetary union it has its own currency, and with that the capacity to control interest rates and the exchange rate. As a fiscal union it has its own taxation, social service and public spending system. By virtue of citizens paying common taxes to a common government in order to finance common public spending programmes throughout the territory of a State, there are automatic transfers from the richer regions and social classes of each country to the poorer regions and classes. This sustains and is sustained by a shared national solidarity. By contrast, the euro-currency project (EMU/Economic and Monetary Union) means a monetary union but not a fiscal union. Never in history has there been a lasting monetary union that was not also a fiscal union and political union, in other words a fully-fledged State, deriving its legitimacy from a common government and shared national solidarity, which in turn underpinned a common fiscal transfer system. The euro-currency scheme deprives the less developed EU States and the weaker EU economies of the right to maintain their competitiveness or to compensate for their lower productivity or poorer resource endowment, by adopting an exchange rate or interest rate that suits their special circumstances. But it does not compensate them for this loss by the automatic transfer of resources entailed by membership of a fiscal union. Compensatory fiscal transfers at EU level to the extent required to make a monetary union viable in the long run are impossible, in view of the amount of resources required and the unwillingness of the richer countries to provide them to the poorer because of the absence of shared national solidarity that would impel that. At present expenditure by Brussels in any one year amounts to less than 1.3% of the EU's annual Gross Domestic Product, a tiny relative figure, whereas Nation State expenditure on public transfers is normally between 35-50% of annual national products. In other words, the solidarity that would sustain an EU fiscal union and an EU Multinational State does not and cannot exist. Democratising the EU without a European "demos" is impossible. The EU's adoption of such traditional symbols of national statehood as an EU flag, EU anthem, EU passport, EU car number plates, EU Olympic games, EU youth orchestra, EU history books, EU citizenship etc, are so many doomed attempts to manufacture a European "demos" artificially, and with it a bogus EU "nation" and supranational "national consciousness." They leave the real peoples of Europe indifferent, whose allegiance remains with their own countries and Nation States. The more European integration is pushed ahead and the more the national democracy of the EU Member States is undermined, the more the EU loses legitimacy and authority. Consequently the greater and more inevitable the popular reaction against it will be. To align oneself with such a misguided, inevitably doomed project is to be out of tune with history. It is to side with a supranational elite against the democracy of one's own people, to spurn genuine internationalism for the intoxication of building a Superpower.

THE EU'S CONCEPT OF "POOLING SOVEREIGNTY" IS A PROPAGANDA COVER FOR DOMINATION BY OTHERS AND THE EFFECTIVE RULE OF THE BIGGER EU STATES



Concepts of "shared sovereignty," "pooled sovereignty" and "joint national sovereignties" are covers for having one's laws and policies decided by European Union bodies one does not elect, which are not responsible to one's own people and which can have significantly different interests from them. In the EU it is impossible for a single country or people to make or change a single European law. In practice countries and peoples which surrender their sovereignty to the EU become ever more subject to laws and policies that serve the interests of the bigger EU States. The claim that if a nation or State surrenders its sovereignty to the EU, it merely exchanges the sovereignty of a small State for participation in decision-making in a bigger supranational EU, is simply untrue. The reality is different. The EU continually reduces the influence of smaller States in decision-making by limiting or abolishing national veto powers. Even if bigger States similarly divest themselves of formal veto power, their political and economic weight ensures they can get their way in matters that are decisive to them. Equally false is the statement that membership of new States in the European Union and their surrender of sovereignty to the EU would increase their sovereignty in practice. The nation which gives up its sovereignty or is deprived of it, ceases to be an independent subject of international politics. It is no longer able to decide even its own domestic affairs. It literally puts its existence at the mercy of those who have taken its sovereignty into their hands and who decide the policies of the larger body. In the European Union the Big States, in particular Germany and France acting together, decide fundamental policy. Judicially the EU project is an attempt to undo the democratic heritage of the French Revolution, the right of nations and peoples to self-determination. It is an historically doomed project because of its fundamentally undemocratic character.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 08:09 PM

Sorry, interdependent regions is what I read but what I didn't type. The EU does not "control" regions. EU structures and regulation apply to member states which are in turn responsible for the governance of their regions. There is a very wide diversity of degrees of devolution and autonomy among the regions of member states. That is not the concern of the EU.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 07:14 PM

Exactly. So the fewer nation states the better. The EU can't exercise any control over "independent regions." That's just waffle. The EU philosophy, as you are so keen to remind us, is for ever-closer integration. Fracturing of states works directly against that. This is from wiki, an extract concerning what might have happened had Scotland voted for independence. When you read it bear in mind that Scotland is pro-EU and that the EU is pro-Scotland, yet EU politics might have made it impossible for an independent Scotland to join. It would clearly be no easier for an independent Catalonia. Too many regions are watching with interest to see what happens here and too many nation states are extremely wary of separatist groups being encouraged by an easy ride for Catalonia or Scotland. It may be wrong but it's the real world.

The No Campaign (Better Together), led by Alistair Darling, argued that any vote for independence would have automatically placed Scotland out of the EU as a new state, and Scotland would have had to renegotiate entry.There is no clear legal process for how this exit for Scotland would have been enacted. Comments by several EU officials and other heads of EU member states echoed the No Campaign view, and in mid-February 2014 Jose Manuel Barroso, the President of the European Commission, stated that it would have been 'very difficult' for an independent Scotland to join the EU, 'if not impossible', because of the difficulty of getting the approval of all member states, particularly Spain, which fears a possible secession of Catalonia and has blocked Kosovo's accession to the EU. Spanish Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy, said in November 2013 that after a vote for independence, Scotland "will be left outside the EU", while Spanish Foreign Minister Jos? Garcia-Margallo, having said in February 2012 that Spain would not veto Scottish accession to the EU, provided Scottish independence had UK agreement (thus making it different from Catalan independence), added in early February 2014 that an independent Scotland would have had many hurdles to overcome in a lengthy process of negotiations and ratifications if it was to become an EU member.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 06:24 PM

"The EU is opposed to countries fracturing"

Where on earth did you get that from?

The "nation state" is the absolute bane of the EU and the Commissions aims. They want to get rid of the troublesome nations states that keep getting in its way.

The EU doesn't give a toss for a "wounded Spain" - Just think how easier it would be to control a whole bunch of interdependent regions than it is to control "nation states" that hold referendums and veto what the EU Commission sees as being necessary for their project Europe.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 02:10 PM

Once a tariff is set, it's set for every country who wants to sell you those goods. In any trade deals we try to do we will be wearing those shackles

We already wear those shackles when trading outside EU, but EU sets them not us.
Soon we can set zero tariffs on foods we can not grow ourselves.

As we import far more goods than we export, we will be at the mercy of other countries who don't like what we're doing, consequently setting their import tariffs high.

No. As you said they have to have the same tariffs for all.

China makes stuff but we don't. You whack high tariffs on China and they'll stuff us.

No. They have to offer us the same tariff as EU and everyone else. No increase when we leave.

Keeping the tariffs low will flood the country with cheap goods and we'll end up making even less stuff.

No. We can choose which goods to tax.

And all the time we will be in a tariff environment with the EU, making our goods even less competitive than they are now.

Yes, and theirs even less competitive too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Iains
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 01:10 PM

The situation can be escalated or de-escalated. My bet is on the former.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-10-24/rajoy-s-allies-said-to-flinch-at-draconian-tactics-for-catalonia


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Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 12:29 PM

The thing is, Nigel, that under WTO rules you can't arbitrarily vary the tariffs you charge. Once a tariff is set, it's set for every country who wants to sell you those goods. In any trade deals we try to do we will be wearing those shackles. As we import far more goods than we export, we will be at the mercy of other countries who don't like what we're doing, consequently setting their import tariffs high. You can do that with a little country (which is what we are in terms of the goods we export). Not so easy with a powerful trading bloc of half a billion people. We will have lost that leverage. We do keep trying to tell you that the glory days of empire and the whole world buying British are gone and not coming back. Trading conditions are going to be harsh. Every stitch of clothing I'm wearing today was made in China. China makes stuff but we don't. You whack high tariffs on China and they'll stuff us. Keeping the tariffs low will flood the country with cheap goods and we'll end up making even less stuff. And all the time we will be in a tariff environment with the EU, making our goods even less competitive than they are now. Then there's the massive hit that our services sector is going to take. Still, you know best. In the words of Joni, we won't know we had 'til it's gone.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 12:09 PM

The two-thirds thing is not done. Pie in the sky. The EU is opposed to countries fracturing and will not look kindly on piddling little Catalonia. And do you honestly think that Spain, wounded by one of its richest regions jumping ship, is going to vote to admit Catalonia to the EU? In any referendum campaign those issues will be very forcibly put, you can bet your life. Catalonia is going nowhere, but the best thing now is to let the people have their say. I hate referendums but in this case I can see no other way out of a situation that is otherwise going to fester for generations.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 11:19 AM

""You cannot have both?" I didn't say anything contradictory in those two quotes."

Oh yes you most certainly did Shaw:

1: The EU pitches Catalonia out of the EU

2: The EU penalises Catalonia for leaving the EU

Now the EU can hardly penalise Catalonia for actions taken by the EU can it?

So no Shaw Catalonia, should it vote for independence will find itself out of the EU, just exactly the same as Scotland would have found itself out of the EU had it voted for independence. Now Catalonia is one step further down the road than Scotland in that it currently uses the Euro. There is nothing at all to prevent Catalonia from continuing to use that currency. Catalonia is the richest province in Spain, certainly the most industrialised. It is fully compliant and could be fast tracked for consideration. In either event it will be about 10 years for Catalonia and 15 years for Scotland - now whether or not the EU will still exist in 10 to 15 years is one thing, whether, IF it does still exist, it is a group anyone would wish to join is another story entirely.

I would imagine that by that time the two-thirds thing is a done deal and the unanimous vote has been canned as those are the wishes of the EU Commission, so there would be no veto for Spain which by then may have fractured even further.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 09:59 AM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 09:22 AM
No deal will result in a high price. Our future trade with the EU will involve tariffs. Our trade under WTO rules will involve tariffs. We are net importers of goods, therefore tariffs will hurt this country.

You still do not seem to understand that tariffs are imposed by the countries importing goods.
If we have tariffs on our imports it will be because we chose to impose them. (usually to protect our home produced goods)


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Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 09:22 AM

Trade deals involving the EU and WTO won't be affected by brexit. Why do you keep going on about that?

"You cannot have both?" I didn't say anything contradictory in those two quotes.

No deal will result in a high price. Our future trade with the EU will involve tariffs. Our trade under WTO rules will involve tariffs. We are net importers of goods, therefore tariffs will hurt this country. No deal means a collapse of business confidence - see yesterday. It could mean businesses relocating out of this country with the loss of jobs. Bureaucratic barriers that currently don't exist will severely affect our services sector. Major financial institutions are already considering their options. The pound will probably go even lower, making imports expensive. Inflation is already rising as a result of the devaluation. Our economy is already struggling (far more than other major EU/G7 countries). Look at the latest growth and productivity figures. Above all, we have an incompetent, weak and rudderless government. We don't even know what the deal will be yet but we are already paying a high price. Still, do enjoy the view as you fall ever faster and don't look at the ground coming up at you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 08:02 AM

No confusion, or contradiction at all in my position on an EU Army - it is a thoroughly daft idea (As I said it would be a clone of the EU itself inefficient and ineffectual) - the important bit is that after 29th March, 2019 the EU Commission can do its worst the UK will be paying for none of their foolishness.

The referendums suggested for the northern parts of Italy are for more fiscal autonomy. At present neither Lombardy and Veneto think much of the way what they see as "their" money is being squandered in the south by the Italian Government. It is a source of division that will have to be addressed. A referendum is as good a way of testing the water as any, if the Italian Government pay no attention to what the people of those provinces want having asked them, then the stakes get higher, as generally if the collective wishes of an electorate are ignored it will result in trouble and a hardening of positions further down the line.

By the way Shaw which one is it? It cannot be both:

1: "The problem for Catalonia going solo is that it would be immediately pitched out of the EU"

2: "an independent Catalonia, which would be seen as having brought the problem on itself. The EU has been of major benefit to the regions of Spain and you don't get to leave without paying a high price."

Oh and as for "you don't get to leave without paying a high price." - If there is "No deal" on the 29th March, 2019 the UK will leave the EU without paying them a penny. The countries of the EU can then decide whether or not they wish to remain in the WTO.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 06:00 AM

Even for you, that was a particularly unfocused post, Teribus. Sounds like an EU army would be a good idea then, what with its forcing those lazy big countries to live up to their NATO obligations. The very idea seemed to be the spawn of the devil last time you were ranting against its being forced on us. Make your mind up.

Lombardy and Veneto are not seeking independence but they are demanding greater fiscal autonomy from a ramshackle and inefficient central government, so comparison with Catalonia is slightly invidious. I know both those Italian regions and a statement such as "the natives are getting restless" is staggeringly ignorant, demeaning and inappropriate when levelled at the people of Lombardy and Veneto, who could teach the originator of the term in this thread a lot about civility, good manners and appropriate use of language.

Incidentally, the ECJ (that much-maligned EU institution) has adjudicated that the right to self-determination as enshrined in the UN constitution can't be overridden by the EU. The problem for Catalonia going solo is that it would be immediately pitched out of the EU and would find it next to impossible to rejoin. The EU doesn't like fragmentation (just as Westminster didn't want the fragmentation of the Union, so any bleating on that score would represent a double standard) and would rail against it, and Spain certainly wouldn't approve. New members can be admitted only via a unanimous vote of all member states. If that were put starkly and honestly to the people of Catalonia in a referendum they would not vote for independence. It sounds like blackmail, but rules is rules. After brexit, the EU would be far more sympathetic to an independent Scotland, if that ever happened, as Scotland would have been dragged out of the EU against its will, unlike an independent Catalonia, which would be seen as having brought the problem on itself. The EU has been of major benefit to the regions of Spain and you don't get to leave without paying a high price. That isn't my stance. That's just how it is.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 04:27 AM

Catalonian independence would be a mistake from the point of view of most existing eu member states, as it would weaken Europe, and temporarily weaken the euro, from the point of view of those people who wish to leave europe in the UK, the weakening of the EU is just what is wanted.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 04:14 AM

Tell us Shaw, once we have left the EU why does it matter to us if they then decide to pander to France's vanity and ego, if they then go ahead with their European Defence Force - We, along with most countries in Europe will still be members of NATO, which will be the military alliance that guarantees the safety and security of Europe.

Now should the EU Commission then insist on EU member states leaving NATO, that is when sphincters will start to twitch and the EU Defence Force will get canned (The proposed French led EDF might just be able to put on a parade [Provided that it doesn't have to be too big] but as far as "defending" anything goes it will be utterly last). The states of Europe, particularly Germany, have had a very easy ride over the past 60 years with regard to defence spending. The Americans quite rightly are now calling on those states to live up to their obligations to NATO or the US will drastically review its position - Good high time that this attitude was taken.

Any explanation of the following Shaw:

"The natives are getting restless."

Nice piece of imperialist claptrap peppered with a dose of racism. Perfect. Why am I not surprised?


Well you should be as surprised as the rest of us Shaw as the above does not seem to be connected to anything at all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Iains
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 04:07 AM

"Nice piece of imperialist claptrap peppered with a dose of racism. Perfect. Why am I not surprised?"

You do come out with some rubbish Shaw. Or are you merely trying to construct the perfect non sequitur?


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Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Oct 17 - 05:16 PM

There can be no European army while we are members. Impossible. We block it under EU rules. Once we leave we lose that influence and it will likely come about. It really is very simple, Teribus.

"The natives are getting restless."

Nice piece of imperialist claptrap peppered with a dose of racism. Perfect. Why am I not surprised?


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