BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Oct 17 - 03:48 AM

I was agreeing with you Steve.
Both governments opposed independence, the only trivial difference being that the Spanish government imposed its will on the Catalans by force and denied them any opportunity to even express a view in a referendum, while our government granted the Scots the freedom to choose their own destiny.
Otherwise, as you said, no difference Steve.

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Oct 17 - 05:53 PM

i think there are a lot of differences between Scottish and Catalonian independence struggles.

the most glaring of course is the Spanish civil war was 1936, Culloden was 1745. try to imagine if Culloden was 1945.


we've had two hundred years to appreciate the virtues of not doing each other in.

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Oct 17 - 05:17 PM

Which is exactly what I said, Keith. Try not to be tiresome.

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Iains
Date: 29 Oct 17 - 01:53 PM

Whoooops!
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5028507/Sacked-Catalan-leader-remain-president.html

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Oct 17 - 12:04 PM

Quite right Keith, I voted for Scottish Independence, we lost, I accept the democratic result and will not attempt to undermine the UK government over it.   That's also the difference.

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Oct 17 - 11:49 AM

There is no difference in attitude between UK/Scotland and Spain/Catalonia.

Except that we allowed a referendum on independence and agreed to abide by the decision of the Scottish people, and Spain refused the Catalans all those things.
Otherwise no difference.

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Oct 17 - 10:25 AM

"Was there similar international condemnation of Scottish independence?
I do not remember any.
Why has our government defended Spanish unity when we believe in self determination for our own regions?"

Our government fought tooth and nail to persuade Scotland to remain in the UK. There is no difference in attitude between UK/Scotland and Spain/Catalonia. The difference in approach is that Scotland was allowed to have a legal referendum. Spain has said that the sacked Catalan politicians may stand for the regional elections in December. A poor showing by the separatists may, in Spain's eyes, be a way out of this. I have a feeling that the elections won't end the divisiveness.

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Oct 17 - 07:57 AM

I think the Catalonia/Madrid business has been a long time coming, and very specific to Spain.

Brexit has sod all to do with it, as do our own separatist movements.

Spain is a very different kettle of fish. There are layers of historical significance and cultural matters and subtleties that we can't pick up on. So its no good pontificating.

they will deal with it. we can't possibly help matters yelling out encouragement and ignorance.

Picking up on one of Ake's points. Who is to decide whether a degree is of use to the country? The thing I loved about the Open University was the Summer school, where I met old people who were studying out of sheer delight in learning. They had grown up in an era when University education wasn't available to working class folk.

we are all better off with a cultured educated population than a stupid ignorant one. it is the best hope we have for achieving a civilisation.

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Oct 17 - 07:16 AM

Most people who contribute to this thread are more interested in content than post numbers Richard.

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Oct 17 - 07:07 AM

What happened to the great Mudcat tradition of claiming the 100th post etc? 200!

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Oct 17 - 04:49 AM

Was there similar international condemnation of Scottish independence?
I do not remember any.
Why has our government defended Spanish unity when we believe in self determination for our own regions?

Is it because Catalonia is wealthy and prosperous? Its independence would cost Spain not remove a burden.

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 27 Oct 17 - 03:50 PM

Steve Shaw.
You really ought to review your own posts, or possibly post what you mean. Your latest post on this discussion:

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 27 Oct 17 - 02:29 PM
When I posted first thing this morning the Spanish government had not decided what to do, following discussions yesterday. They were vacillating. They have now made their decision, hours after I posted that. They are no longer vacillating. OK, chaps? And you are stalking, Nigel. Discuss the issues and stop this interminable nitpicking which makes you look extremely foolish.

Is discussing a totally different parliament to the one you mentioned this morning:

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 26 Oct 17 - 06:21 PM
In fact, the Catalan Parliament is vacillating today. Tomorrow could be quite interesting. Both sides have handled this really badly.

In case it needs explaining, the "Spanish government" is not the "Catalan Parliament".

As for "looking foolish", I think you've got the wrong party, yet again!

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Iains
Date: 27 Oct 17 - 02:38 PM

"?For the European Commission", as President Juncker has reiterated repeatedly,2 this is an internal matter for Spain that has to be dealt with in line with the constitutional order of Spain."

?We also reiterate the legal position held by this Commission as well as by its predecessors. If a referendum were to be organised in line with the Spanish Constitution it would mean that the territory leaving would find itself outside of the European Union.

Beyond the purely legal aspects of this matter, the Commission believes that these are times for unity and stability, not divisiveness and fragmentation.
We call on all relevant players to now move very swiftly from confrontation to dialogue."

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Oct 17 - 02:29 PM

When I posted first thing this morning the Spanish government had not decided what to do, following discussions yesterday. They were vacillating. They have now made their decision, hours after I posted that. They are no longer vacillating. OK, chaps? And you are stalking, Nigel. Discuss the issues and stop this interminable nitpicking which makes you look extremely foolish.

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Oct 17 - 11:33 AM

"

The essence of the post-1945 European settlement is the integrity of states. After centuries of horrific wars, stable statehood is the rock on which Europe?s security rests. Allow old grievances to recur, old feuds to revive and old boundaries to shift, and chaos will ensue. Besides, that other rock of stability, the European Union, relies on states being able to enforce EU diktats on subordinate regions without challenge.

If only politics were that simple.

Just as the EU commission in Brussels has become a parody of the pre-Reformation Roman church, so aversion to central power is destabilising states across the continent. Economies globalise and national governments centralise, and as a result regional identities become more assertive and belligerent. Not just Catalans but Scots, Basques, Corsicans, Flemings, Silesians and Venetians show no signs of diminishing their plea for more autonomy, whether heavy or ?lite?. The Catalonians are merely the vanguard of a movement against the clumsy bureaucratic elites that rule Brussels as they do Madrid ? not to mention London. Hence it is pointless for Madrid simply to read the rule book and the riot act to solve this crisis.





The EU is foolish to think this is none of its business. Its blundering diplomacy has already lost it the United Kingdom



It is clear that the Catalan president, Carles Puigdemont, is desperate to avoid a cataclysmic break with Madrid, knowing that his own people are deeply divided in their separatism. There has to be the sort of deal that there was with the Basques in the 1990s ? perhaps even more radical. Spain is already among the most devolved states in Europe. Its recent ham-fisted treatment of Barcelona demands it become even more so, possibly with a new Catalan constitution that can be put to local plebiscite.

The EU is foolish to think this is none of its business. Its blundering diplomacy has already lost it the United Kingdom. No other nation dares hold a referendum on exit. Separation beckons from Poles, Czechs and Hungarians. The German-dominated eurozone has blighted the Greek and Spanish economies and is, in large part, to blame for the present crisis. The EU cares as little for regional identity as it does for any sort of devolution. The Catalonian question is about Europe as much as it is about Spain.

? Simon Jenkins is a Guardian columnist

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 27 Oct 17 - 11:24 AM

"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter." (Winston Churchill)

"Many forms of Government have been tried, and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time." (Winston S Churchill, 11 November 1947)

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Stu
Date: 27 Oct 17 - 10:57 AM

"I predict an armed insurrection which will herald the end of the EU as we know it."

Priceless. You really should write for the telly.

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Iains
Date: 27 Oct 17 - 10:38 AM

Catalonia has declared independence from Spain. Vacillating? The boy must be using a different dictionary to me!

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 27 Oct 17 - 07:35 AM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 26 Oct 17 - 06:21 PM
In fact, the Catalan Parliament is vacillating today.

In what way? What two positions were they moving back and forwards between?

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Oct 17 - 06:30 AM

I predict an armed insurrection which will herald the end of the EU as we know it.

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Oct 17 - 05:08 AM

The Catalan electorate number some 5.3 million.

In the informal referendum that sparked this crisis 1.98 million out of the 2.2 million votes cast were for independence - considering the circumstances and the situation that result should not come as any great surprise.

The Spanish Authorities confiscated and destroyed something like 300,000 ballot papers which if they replicated the ratio shown in the ballot pares counted - this would lift the YES vote to 2.1 million for YES, or just under 40% of the electorate who could be described as hardened supporters of Catalonian independence.

Those who are against independence will not have been affected at all by what has happened. But those who fall into the categories, "Don't Knows" and the "Undecided" may well have been influenced by what they saw and the impressions do not favour the Spanish Government. If you believe in human rights and basic freedom then the YES side in Catalonia may well now get the votes they require for independence.

Average voter turn-out in Spanish elections is 73.91%, which if translated to Catalonia means that 3.92 million people will vote, so NOW should those 2.1 million people vote the same way with a 73.91% turn-out that will mean the YES side will win with 53.6% for independence. If undecided voters were swayed then the percentage for independence goes up - THAT is what the Spanish Government has achieved by acting as it has.

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Iains
Date: 27 Oct 17 - 04:19 AM

The only thing that has happened is that the lid has been put back on the kettle. Rest assured, it is still simmering nicely, and no doubt will boil over again in the future. The way the Spanish government has handled the situation is particularly inept and likely generated even more support for the independence movement.

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Oct 17 - 07:03 PM

Don't know about both sides. The Spanish Government has handled it appallingly poorly.

This, I believe would have ended up as a complete and utter non-event had they let them hold their referendum, made the same case to the electorate of Catalonia that the "Better together Campaign" made to the electorate of Scotland and the result would have been a resounding NO to Catalan Independence.

As it was they waded in in the most heavy-handed manner, succeeded in injuring over 900 people who were displayed on television screens all over the world being denied what many in western Europe consider to be a basic human right and getting beaten in the process. The world will remember that, and I strongly suspect that the undecided voters of Catalonia will remember that.

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Oct 17 - 06:21 PM

In fact, the Catalan Parliament is vacillating today. Tomorrow could be quite interesting. Both sides have handled this really badly.

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Oct 17 - 06:05 PM

The insulter-in-chief waddles along in the wake of problem poster numero uno. You could try discussing Catalonia. If you've heard of it, that is.

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Iains
Date: 26 Oct 17 - 04:13 AM

For stevie blunder. A toon yo remind him of past "glories"


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KdOCWUgwiWs&list=RDKdOCWUgwiWs&t=6

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Oct 17 - 03:43 AM

Have a nice day yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Oct 17 - 02:37 AM

😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 - Shaw, the person who comments on "childish posts" - 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 - "Shall we have a poll? 😂 Take it outside." - about as puerile as you can get.

Apart from Shaw who took up the description, only one person has ever referred to me as being ONE of the problem posters on this forum - that was Joe Offer. I have never, ever been admonished or warned about my posts by any moderator of this forum by PM or any other message. Shaw & Co., on the other hand have been rebuked in a very public manner on a number of occasions that I can recall.

By the way Shaw talking of pointless exercises. There would be no need for me to ask the people of Cornwall how they feel about the EU - they way they voted in the referendum told us that very clearly - of those who voted 57% wanted to LEAVE - that by the way is a majority stating that they want no part of being a member state of the EU.

On the EU, perhaps it is the name that's got Shaw hooked. European UNION, perhaps his ideological and brainwashed mind sees that word and immediately thinks it must be defended at all costs - he was after all a UNION activist.

Shall we take it outside? - 😂😂 Priceless!!!! - No wonder you wear shorts.

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 09:23 PM

❤️😘❤️ ❌❌❌

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: bobad
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 09:02 PM

Well now, isn't it rich that a poster who is becoming rather obsessive about decrying another poster as a "problem poster" has himself been threatened with suspension for presumably being a problem poster himself. And accusing someone who points it out of trolling.....lol. Desperate to save face I guess.

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 08:35 PM

Very good. You are so impressive. And you are lying, which you and I both know full well. Shall we have a poll? 😂 Take it outside. Now may I remind you that this thread isn't about you, old chap. Have you actually heard of Catalonia? Do you think it's about lonely cats, or cats alone, as in Home Alone? Maybe you do think that. At least, that's what I glean from the fact that you've had nothing to say about what the thread's about. So you wade in in your usual ignorant manner. You're trolling. No more from me on you.

I see that the ante is seriously being upped between Madrid and Catalonia today. The need for a neutral intermediary is crying out as never before. And the Davis clown is now suggesting that a deal could be signed a "nanosecond" after brexit. Jayz, we are in deep doodah!

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: bobad
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 08:17 PM

Gee Shaw, unlike you I have never been threatened with suspension. As for your allegations of me having posted simultaneously under two identities I can categorically state that is a lie. In consideration of your veiled threats regarding communications with the mods I remind you that I also have saved communications from them about you that are, not to put too fine a point on it, less than flattering in regards to your character. I will leave it at that.

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 07:33 PM

And how would you know? Joe and I discussed in private whether I should be suspended on the ONE occasion only, in all my years here, over posts concerning religion, in June 2016. The matter was resolved without further talk of suspension. I have kept all our exchanges. You, on the other hand, have on several occasions been the subject of discussions over your dishonest double identity before the rule change about guest posts below the line last year. You can't really deny this as I have kept all the exchanges I had with moderators on the matter. Naturally, I won't post them here as I respect the confidentiality of private communications, But what I can do, if necessary, is remind the mods of our exchanges and send them the archived messages. You have also been in the dock over your stalking behaviour. You need to consider having a moment of silence on all this. The exchanges I've had with the mods make you look very bad indeed. I will never make them public as I respect the spirit in which PMs are exchanged. But, believe me, you really do need to move on.

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: bobad
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 05:48 PM

I note that the poster who has taken to worrying the term "problem poster" to death is the same who has admitted to having been threatened with suspension on more than one occasion. I wonder if the poster to whom he is referring has ever been similarly threatened.

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 05:03 PM

I'll take that as a compliment. Now excuse me as I'm making a special biological study of worms and their holes.


Actually, I could use a few volunteers...

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 04:51 PM

Steve, you are beginning to remind me of the late unlamented "Muskets", they too thought they were frightfully clever, but in the event they turned out to be just just frightful.

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 02:44 PM

You really don't do irony, do you?

"I do not have to claim any kind of education."

That sounds honest. Whatever kind you did have, it was rather deficient in the areas of teaching civility and good manners. Anything to say about Catalonia? Or even brexit if you like?

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Iains
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 02:39 PM

"Sorry, but your concepts, insulter-in-chief (is there a competition going on here for Problem Poster Of The Month?), are all theory and ignore reality."

But by your own admission you do not separate fact from fiction, so who are you to talk about the difference between fiction and reality?
What a funny little fellow you are shaw!

The "accolade?" problem poster and chief insulter belongs exclusively to you shaw. No-one else can come anywhere close, and far more to the point. who would want to?

I do not have to claim any kind of education. It makes no difference to me. A plumber, electrician carpenter can offer contributions on these threads that can leave yours way behind shaw.
Is it your feeling of inadequacy and inferiority lead you to boast continually about how well educated a scientist you are? Personally I could not give a rat's arse and I doubt anyone else could either.

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 02:35 PM

Another childish Teribus post. Well, the people of my beloved Kernow (I come from Radcliffe, Lancs, actually) also wiped out the LibDems in two elections running in spite of the fact that the Tories are slaughtering our schools, shutting down our cottage hospitals, threatening hospital departments in the few main hospitals we have with closure, allowing huge, cheap estates to spring up everywhere despite lack of infrastructure (and next to no affordable homes included in that lot) and just letting the potholes in our country roads proliferate. Nowt so queer as folk. As Churchill said (OK if I quote him? Thought you'd approve of that at least....), if you want to know what's wrong with democracy, just spend five minutes talking to the average voter.


And Keith. If seven people in ten say bring back hanging, are they right just because it's seven in ten?

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 02:02 PM

Ah, Keith those 182,665 who voted Leave were probably those "Hooray-Henries" biologist Steve used to chat to about "flocks of grouse" and packs of vicious dogs in the heart of Kernow's hunting community whilst biting his tongue.

And with those figures Keith, Shaw will argue that there was a clear majority that elected to remain down there in his "beloved Kernow".

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 01:52 PM

The EU does return a little of our money as aid, but the EU decide what it must be spent on.
Cornwall voted 140,540 for Remain and 182,665 for Leave

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 11:59 AM

Sorry, but your concepts, insulter-in-chief (is there a competition going on here for Problem Poster Of The Month?), are all theory and ignore reality. The EU does not "control" regions by giving them money. Cornwall has received hundreds of millions of EU funding, but come down here and ask local people how they're being "controlled" by the EU and they'll ask you what the hell you're talking about. The rules and laws of the EU apply to member states which administer their regions accordingly and there is little sign of any dead hand of bureaucratic control where I live, one the regions of the UK that has benefited most from our being EU members. As for Teribus and his concepts, containing waffle about number plates (optional), flags (optional) and EU passports (extremely bloody useful at every European airport I've been to, which is a lot), they are not his at all as he has copied and pasted them from sources he has yet to divulge (I fully expect them to be an embarrassment if and when he does divulge). Your own understanding of them, after years of whatever education you claim for yourself, has led to a completely risible analogy with cranes. Would you like me to ask the mods to move it to the joke thread for you?

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Iains
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 04:09 AM

The Lisbon Treaty was clearly designed to both streamline and centralise decision making within the EU, or the more cynical would see it as nothing other than a power grab.

"The EU philosophy, as you are so keen to remind us, is for ever-closer integration. Fracturing of states works directly against that."
For a well educated scientist you appear sadly misinformed.
Small is easy, big is difficult. Simple analogy for simple minds:
a one tonne crane lift can be dealt with utilising various different pieces of machinery. A one hundred ton lift requires a dedicated crane.
Coercion can be easily applied to small administrative units, not so easily to Nation States.

I hope you can now grasp the very simple concept that Teribus outlined for you.

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Oct 17 - 03:43 AM

"The EU does not "control" regions." - Odd that 30% to 35% of it's budget goes to controlling regions then isn't it Shaw.


THE EUROPEAN UNION IS FUNDAMENTALLY UNDEMOCRATIC AND CANNOT BE DEMOCRATISED

It is the absence at the level of the European Union of anything like the underlying national solidarity which binds Europe's Nation States together that makes the EU project, and especially the euro-currency scheme, so problematic and therefore unlikely to endure. The EU is a creation of powerful political, economic and bureaucratic elites, without popular legitimacy and authority, and is therefore fundamentally undemocratic. There is no European "demos," no European people, bound together by solidarities like those that bind nations and Nation States. Rather, the EU is made up of Western Europe's several nations and peoples. Every Nation State is both a monetary union and fiscal union. As a monetary union it has its own currency, and with that the capacity to control interest rates and the exchange rate. As a fiscal union it has its own taxation, social service and public spending system. By virtue of citizens paying common taxes to a common government in order to finance common public spending programmes throughout the territory of a State, there are automatic transfers from the richer regions and social classes of each country to the poorer regions and classes. This sustains and is sustained by a shared national solidarity. By contrast, the euro-currency project (EMU/Economic and Monetary Union) means a monetary union but not a fiscal union. Never in history has there been a lasting monetary union that was not also a fiscal union and political union, in other words a fully-fledged State, deriving its legitimacy from a common government and shared national solidarity, which in turn underpinned a common fiscal transfer system. The euro-currency scheme deprives the less developed EU States and the weaker EU economies of the right to maintain their competitiveness or to compensate for their lower productivity or poorer resource endowment, by adopting an exchange rate or interest rate that suits their special circumstances. But it does not compensate them for this loss by the automatic transfer of resources entailed by membership of a fiscal union. Compensatory fiscal transfers at EU level to the extent required to make a monetary union viable in the long run are impossible, in view of the amount of resources required and the unwillingness of the richer countries to provide them to the poorer because of the absence of shared national solidarity that would impel that. At present expenditure by Brussels in any one year amounts to less than 1.3% of the EU's annual Gross Domestic Product, a tiny relative figure, whereas Nation State expenditure on public transfers is normally between 35-50% of annual national products. In other words, the solidarity that would sustain an EU fiscal union and an EU Multinational State does not and cannot exist. Democratising the EU without a European "demos" is impossible. The EU's adoption of such traditional symbols of national statehood as an EU flag, EU anthem, EU passport, EU car number plates, EU Olympic games, EU youth orchestra, EU history books, EU citizenship etc, are so many doomed attempts to manufacture a European "demos" artificially, and with it a bogus EU "nation" and supranational "national consciousness." They leave the real peoples of Europe indifferent, whose allegiance remains with their own countries and Nation States. The more European integration is pushed ahead and the more the national democracy of the EU Member States is undermined, the more the EU loses legitimacy and authority. Consequently the greater and more inevitable the popular reaction against it will be. To align oneself with such a misguided, inevitably doomed project is to be out of tune with history. It is to side with a supranational elite against the democracy of one's own people, to spurn genuine internationalism for the intoxication of building a Superpower.

THE EU'S CONCEPT OF "POOLING SOVEREIGNTY" IS A PROPAGANDA COVER FOR DOMINATION BY OTHERS AND THE EFFECTIVE RULE OF THE BIGGER EU STATES



Concepts of "shared sovereignty," "pooled sovereignty" and "joint national sovereignties" are covers for having one's laws and policies decided by European Union bodies one does not elect, which are not responsible to one's own people and which can have significantly different interests from them. In the EU it is impossible for a single country or people to make or change a single European law. In practice countries and peoples which surrender their sovereignty to the EU become ever more subject to laws and policies that serve the interests of the bigger EU States. The claim that if a nation or State surrenders its sovereignty to the EU, it merely exchanges the sovereignty of a small State for participation in decision-making in a bigger supranational EU, is simply untrue. The reality is different. The EU continually reduces the influence of smaller States in decision-making by limiting or abolishing national veto powers. Even if bigger States similarly divest themselves of formal veto power, their political and economic weight ensures they can get their way in matters that are decisive to them. Equally false is the statement that membership of new States in the European Union and their surrender of sovereignty to the EU would increase their sovereignty in practice. The nation which gives up its sovereignty or is deprived of it, ceases to be an independent subject of international politics. It is no longer able to decide even its own domestic affairs. It literally puts its existence at the mercy of those who have taken its sovereignty into their hands and who decide the policies of the larger body. In the European Union the Big States, in particular Germany and France acting together, decide fundamental policy. Judicially the EU project is an attempt to undo the democratic heritage of the French Revolution, the right of nations and peoples to self-determination. It is an historically doomed project because of its fundamentally undemocratic character.

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 08:09 PM

Sorry, interdependent regions is what I read but what I didn't type. The EU does not "control" regions. EU structures and regulation apply to member states which are in turn responsible for the governance of their regions. There is a very wide diversity of degrees of devolution and autonomy among the regions of member states. That is not the concern of the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 07:14 PM

Exactly. So the fewer nation states the better. The EU can't exercise any control over "independent regions." That's just waffle. The EU philosophy, as you are so keen to remind us, is for ever-closer integration. Fracturing of states works directly against that. This is from wiki, an extract concerning what might have happened had Scotland voted for independence. When you read it bear in mind that Scotland is pro-EU and that the EU is pro-Scotland, yet EU politics might have made it impossible for an independent Scotland to join. It would clearly be no easier for an independent Catalonia. Too many regions are watching with interest to see what happens here and too many nation states are extremely wary of separatist groups being encouraged by an easy ride for Catalonia or Scotland. It may be wrong but it's the real world.

The No Campaign (Better Together), led by Alistair Darling, argued that any vote for independence would have automatically placed Scotland out of the EU as a new state, and Scotland would have had to renegotiate entry.There is no clear legal process for how this exit for Scotland would have been enacted. Comments by several EU officials and other heads of EU member states echoed the No Campaign view, and in mid-February 2014 Jose Manuel Barroso, the President of the European Commission, stated that it would have been 'very difficult' for an independent Scotland to join the EU, 'if not impossible', because of the difficulty of getting the approval of all member states, particularly Spain, which fears a possible secession of Catalonia and has blocked Kosovo's accession to the EU. Spanish Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy, said in November 2013 that after a vote for independence, Scotland "will be left outside the EU", while Spanish Foreign Minister Jos? Garcia-Margallo, having said in February 2012 that Spain would not veto Scottish accession to the EU, provided Scottish independence had UK agreement (thus making it different from Catalan independence), added in early February 2014 that an independent Scotland would have had many hurdles to overcome in a lengthy process of negotiations and ratifications if it was to become an EU member.

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 06:24 PM

"The EU is opposed to countries fracturing"

Where on earth did you get that from?

The "nation state" is the absolute bane of the EU and the Commissions aims. They want to get rid of the troublesome nations states that keep getting in its way.

The EU doesn't give a toss for a "wounded Spain" - Just think how easier it would be to control a whole bunch of interdependent regions than it is to control "nation states" that hold referendums and veto what the EU Commission sees as being necessary for their project Europe.

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 02:10 PM

Once a tariff is set, it's set for every country who wants to sell you those goods. In any trade deals we try to do we will be wearing those shackles

We already wear those shackles when trading outside EU, but EU sets them not us.
Soon we can set zero tariffs on foods we can not grow ourselves.

As we import far more goods than we export, we will be at the mercy of other countries who don't like what we're doing, consequently setting their import tariffs high.

No. As you said they have to have the same tariffs for all.

China makes stuff but we don't. You whack high tariffs on China and they'll stuff us.

No. They have to offer us the same tariff as EU and everyone else. No increase when we leave.

Keeping the tariffs low will flood the country with cheap goods and we'll end up making even less stuff.

No. We can choose which goods to tax.

And all the time we will be in a tariff environment with the EU, making our goods even less competitive than they are now.

Yes, and theirs even less competitive too.

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Iains
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 01:10 PM

The situation can be escalated or de-escalated. My bet is on the former.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-10-24/rajoy-s-allies-said-to-flinch-at-draconian-tactics-for-catalonia

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Oct 17 - 12:29 PM

The thing is, Nigel, that under WTO rules you can't arbitrarily vary the tariffs you charge. Once a tariff is set, it's set for every country who wants to sell you those goods. In any trade deals we try to do we will be wearing those shackles. As we import far more goods than we export, we will be at the mercy of other countries who don't like what we're doing, consequently setting their import tariffs high. You can do that with a little country (which is what we are in terms of the goods we export). Not so easy with a powerful trading bloc of half a billion people. We will have lost that leverage. We do keep trying to tell you that the glory days of empire and the whole world buying British are gone and not coming back. Trading conditions are going to be harsh. Every stitch of clothing I'm wearing today was made in China. China makes stuff but we don't. You whack high tariffs on China and they'll stuff us. Keeping the tariffs low will flood the country with cheap goods and we'll end up making even less stuff. And all the time we will be in a tariff environment with the EU, making our goods even less competitive than they are now. Then there's the massive hit that our services sector is going to take. Still, you know best. In the words of Joni, we won't know we had 'til it's gone.