BS: Use of the English language

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Mr Red
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 03:58 AM

😴

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: BobL
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 03:20 AM

Absolutely. Eschew obfuscation I say.

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 03:20 AM

Indicate the route to my abode
I'm fatigued and I wish to seek repose
I had a little beverage sixty minutes ago
And it's gone right to my cranium
Wherever I may perambulate
Over land or sea or agitated water
You will always hear me vocalise this melody
Indicate the route to my abode

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Oct 17 - 08:46 PM

I agree with overwhelming wholeheartedness. I mean, why use long words when monosyllabic diminutive ones would be satisfyingly replete with sufficiency?

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: leeneia
Date: 11 Oct 17 - 08:06 PM

I'm against extra syllables.

differential when different will do
reverential for reverent
definitive for definite
preventative for preventive

Definitive is a good word, but it refers to language which defines something, as in "the definitive study of the mountain gorilla." A definite answer is accurate. "There are 15 gorillas in this valley."

A differential is something at the back end of a car.

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Oct 17 - 02:57 PM

I hate to see one-word sentences. Avoid. And it really gets my goat when people words out of sentences.

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: meself
Date: 11 Oct 17 - 02:54 PM

I think 'driloppong' is an Australian term meaning a small pond that has been created as the result of a drilling operation. Isn't it?

______________________

Now, what's this about 'gullible' being removed from the OED? I wasn't born yesterday, yuh know .....

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Oct 17 - 01:05 PM

Dropping. No idea what driloppong is but it sounds fun.

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Oct 17 - 01:03 PM

The most advanced use of 'bracketing', though not true parenthesis, is in the Burton translation of 1001 Arabian nights. The structure is a story in which people tell stories. Within those stories people tell each other stories. And sometimes within those they will tell each other stories. So occasionally you will come across "- said the tailor" and you boggle for a while until you work out this is driloppong out of several levels of nesting and the tailor who is speaking started 200 pages ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Iains
Date: 11 Oct 17 - 12:57 PM

People voicing an opinion and expecting all to accept it as fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Oct 17 - 12:32 PM

But surely the worst thing is those unwarranted follow-on sentences, they're absolutely terrible!

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 Oct 17 - 12:25 PM

I think the main purpose of a classic British grammar school education was to learn how to ignore and abuse the rules of strict English language pedantry...!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!????????????????????????????????? ?


[if emojis still don't work - visualise my usual cheeky winky sticky out tongue emoticon..]

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Oct 17 - 12:23 PM

And putting remarks in brackets (however relevant the remarks) is (nearly always) completely unnecessary (well at least in most circumstances I can think of).

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Oct 17 - 12:18 PM

What an incredibly coincidental cross-post, pfr!

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Oct 17 - 12:17 PM

And don't get me started on those people who over-use exclamation marks!! Diabolical!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 Oct 17 - 12:17 PM

it's all a load of hyperbollocks...!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Oct 17 - 12:02 PM

The over-use of hyperbole in English is disgusting and I must have said that a million times.

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: leeneia
Date: 11 Oct 17 - 11:50 AM

Hi, Mr. Red. Thanks for getting this thread back on track about language.

Our topic is English usage, so here's an example of a usage I am tired of, and that is over-use of the ultimate. Here's a quotation from a thread about a fairly modern Scottish song:

"It is a total mystery to me why anyone would actually want the lyrics to this appallingly sentimental garbage."

Notice the strong terms:

total mystery
actually want
appallingly* sentimental
garbage

Actually, the writer merely thinks the lyrics are twee. And apparently he knows nothing of the value of the melody.

*(Appalling? If you want to experience something truly appalling, learn about child abuse.)

==========
I've heard this kind of talk so many times. Something merely imperfect is pronounced "dreadful." A band that's mediocre is pronounced "atrocious."

Come to think of it, this is a mild form of bullying.

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Mr Red
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 05:32 PM

The Académie was officially established in 1635
at the time about 50 languages were spoken like Provencal/Occitane - probably Italianate dialects and Swiss patois - Walloon brogues and many more I am ignorant of. The Académie was smart political stratagem in unifying the administrative region. In the modern era it needs a reason to exist so it prescribes edicts that the French are happy to ignore.
The OED on the other hand prefers to document word usage. Gullible has been taken out of the dictionary. Redundant is shaking in its boots!

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 12:40 PM

It’s no use standing on the seat
The germs round here can jump six feet

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 12:04 PM

Two men leaving the gents, but only one washes his hands. He turns to the other and says:
"My mother taught me to was my hands after using the urinal."
the other replies:
"My dad taught me not to pee on my fingers!"

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 11:58 AM

I really detest touching another bloke's hands..
because I do know where they've most likey been and what they've been touching,
and the average British male's aversion for hand washing...

That's why you need to wash your hands going into the toilets.
You wouldn't want to get your willy dirty!

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 11:54 AM

Fist bumps are certainly more hygienic...

To be honest, I'm not very good at being a traditional British gentleman..

I've never liked hand shakes either..

I really detest touching another bloke's hands..
because I do know where they've most likey been and what they've been touching,
and the average British male's aversion for hand washing...

Little wonder I'm such an asocial recluse...???

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 10:57 AM

My two-year-old grandson and I prefer fist bumps.

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 09:55 AM

That guarantees my vote for the old bloke...

.. and my mrs [South Welsh valleys girl] wishes that would catch on as a form of social greeting...

.. and btw.. which side of the Atlantic did stomach churningly discomforting air kissing emanate from...???

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: TheSnail
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 09:17 AM

High 5

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 09:13 AM

.. and the great British 'V' sign beats all measly single middle finger insults.

Two fingers thrust insolently forward with conviction conveys far more power and strength of meaning...

Bow before our manly V signs you upstart immature pathetic middle fingers...

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 09:12 AM

I was high fiving people as they moved round the circle in the opposite direction at a ceilidh on Saturday. Only on the instructions of the caller I hasten to add :-)

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 09:02 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: punkfolkrocker - PM
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 08:52 AM
.. and it's not just verbal and written language,
this American cultural imperialism is an insidious process..

No.. I will bloody well not ever 'High 5" anyone... ever...

Guilty . . .
But only following a Strike in tenpin bowling, so it comes as part and parcel of that 'cultural import'

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 08:52 AM

.. and it's not just verbal and written language,
this American cultural imperialism is an insidious process..

No.. I will bloody well not ever 'High 5" anyone... ever...

... thinks back to last time in a guitar shop when the over enthusiastic puppy young salesman took me by surprise
and I just stood there arms by my sides while his hand was hovering over me high up in the air...
I looked at him as the huge grin on his face drained and he began to look confused, deflated, then offended...
His arm lowering hesitantly as if he was still in the hope I would take the cue and respond to his childlike gesture...

Very awkward situation for a mature Englishman to contend with...


Mind you, when I was a little kid I thought everything American on the telly was brilliant and much better than stuffy old England..
Us kids at infant and junior school were so envious of American boys and girls...

oh yes.. and bollocks to invasion of 'High Schools' and 'Proms'

This is the UK - Kids at big school should stick to traditional 'School Discos'...

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Stu
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 08:33 AM

"Basque, Breton (Gallo & Roman), Alsace (German) still being spoken."

Occitan.

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 08:23 AM

"arse" sounds good robust and strong

"ass" just sounds insipid and weak

I'm not a xenophobe, but I do enjoy and prefer arsepects of British language
and will resist Americanisation / Americanization...

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Iains
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 04:20 AM

You know the plot is lost when you employ a commission to preserve the language.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/8820304/Frances-Academie-francaise-battles-to-protect-language-from-Engl

"The Académie, a council of 40 writers and artists, is entrusted with protecting French from “Anglo-Saxon” attacks and writing an official dictionary, of which the latest unfinished version began in 1992."

English has been under successful attack since the year dot and no-one, but no-one, gives a sh*t.

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Mr Red
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 03:51 AM

"As a result of this, the french language is dying"

Académie française are still fighting a rear-guard action to preserve French. And losing on many fronts. Le weekend being the famous example.
It was set up to give the country a single means of communication, and has not failed there. Despite: Basque, Breton (Gallo & Roman), Alsace (German) still being spoken.

As the first editor of the Oxford English Dictionary pointed out somewhat to the effect:
"a language has a very well defined centre, and a periphery that is more and more nebulous the further it goes out".

some English words survive despite an onslaught for the colonies. Take faucet - in proper English that is a wooden device for regulating/dispensing liquid from a barrel. And to get it into the barrel you tap it. It is easy to see how the words stuck in the colonies, whereas lazy Brits favoured a single syllable appellation. BUT an English billion has shrunk to an American billion - probably because commerce is worldly, and water is personal.

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 07:12 PM

You’re not missing much!

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 06:35 PM

Blocked in your country on copyright grounds.

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 06:28 PM

I heard the Wurzels doing that one in Bude in about 1992. The Wurzels got on our tits after a few songs, sorry to say. The Acker Bilk gig the same week (or was it the same gig?) was much better!

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 05:49 PM

Waitrose always refer to their staff as partners. They always seem to be reasonably happy working there.

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 01:57 PM

one for the English language pedants

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: keberoxu
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 01:37 PM

W. H. Auden:   O tell me the truth about love!

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 01:29 PM

Gloria Smud? I think she went to our school.

What is this thing called love?

What IS this thing called, love?

What! Is thing thing called love?



DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: keberoxu
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 01:18 PM

. . . and there let us wallow
In gloooooo - ri - ous MUD.

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 01:10 PM

It's a way of trying to level the playing field a little, Bonzo. Everyone is of equal importance in an organisation such as Sainsburys, from the Chief executive to the trolley collector. They are all colleagues, as they are where I work too. Colleague is not a new phrase. If you are still of the opinion that people are to be treated as underlings and to be there at your beck and call then a good dose how we should treat people in the 21st century would not do you any harm at all. Nothing to do with political correctness.

Mind you, it would be even better if they paid us all the same as well :-)

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 12:40 PM

Sainsbury's don't help with its ludicrous "colleague announcements". The person calling these always looks very uncomfortable when I ask her why she doesn't say "staff anouncement"!!!!!!! PC gone mad!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 12:02 PM

Well I’ll just have to keep you guessing, won’t I?

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 12:00 PM

You may see me as 'po faced'. And say that you were being whimsical. But you put it forward as a statement (no emoticons, or other signals to suggest that you didn't believe what you were saying).

How many of the 'facts' that you propound in other threads are also your 'whimsy'?

Presumably there is no point disagreeing with you about anything, as once you are proved wrong you'll just say you never really meant it.

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 11:31 AM

I was being whimsical. Anyone normal here would have seen that. Dubya didn’t wave at Stevie Wonder either. It’s what we do to politicians, Nigel. Had I said it about a Saudi king my head and torso would now be in separate rooms. So I love to say stupid things about Dubya because I can. I find it devilishly amusing and I don’t expect anyone to think I’m telling the literal truth. Now move on, Nigel. You’ve flogged it to death. They do that in some non-democracies too. Un-po that long face of yours, otherwise it’ll set that way. I wonder whether that’s true...

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 10:57 AM

Quotes from Steve Shaw:
1.         As Dubya said, the trouble with the French is that they haven't even got a WORD for "entrepreneur" in their language
2.         I KNOW he didn’t actually say it,
No need to argue with him any more. He’s arguing with himself

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 10:48 AM

Jaysus, I KNOW he didn’t actually say it, Nigel. You really are a po-faced literalist, aren’t you? (And guess what Nigel’s going to say next...)

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 10:20 AM

I must say, I am really enjoying this thread.

To paraphrase, never have so many been vanquished by so few.

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 09:46 AM

Bill Bryson's 'Mother tongue' is pretty good too.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 09:37 AM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 07:45 AM
It was the "as a result of this" that mystified me, especially after I'd read the item. As Dubya said, the trouble with the French is that they haven't even got a WORD for "entrepreneur" in their language...

Another masterful piece of research there.
However, I suppose it makes you feel linguistically superior to George W Bush, even if he never said it: Snopes

I recall the same story being told about an English MP (some years ago) The quote then was "The trouble with the Welsh is that they have no word for entrepreneur". George Thomas (Speaker of the house, and a Welshman) responded by asking what the English word was.
Of course, that might also be an invented tale, but it has been around long enough (several decades) that someone thought they could re-use it and attribute it to George W Bush.

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 08:53 AM

Or Bill and Ben!

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 08:31 AM

According to the mrs [conversation 2 or 3 weeks ago]

The recently rebooted new series of The Teletubbies has them speaking English with a little more clarity
than the classic original 1990s series...


Whatcha got to say about that then Bonz..

Bloody interfering modern PC revisionists..
leave our Trad British culture of children's TV puppets [or actors in bloody daft costumes]
talking complete bollocks gibberish alone...

Where's Stanley Unwin when we need him the most...?????

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 07:45 AM

It was the "as a result of this" that mystified me, especially after I'd read the item. As Dubya said, the trouble with the French is that they haven't even got a WORD for "entrepreneur" in their language...

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Stu
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 06:20 AM

"As a result of this, the french language is dying"

Thou speakest through one's nipsy good sir. Last time I was in France everyone was speaking French, hardly a language about to go bristol's skyward.

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 06:15 AM

"The Adventure of English" by Melvyn Bragg is also worth a read.

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 06:14 AM

"Have you the remotest idea of how the English language arrived at its present state Bonzo?"

Even our new puppy, rescued from Romania, doesn't have an English bark!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Monique
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 06:08 AM

An answer to Dave's comment: The History of English Podcast, it's really great.

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 05:56 AM

UK English has been totally fucked up, especially in the Croydon area, by the hotpot of immigration from somewhere else

Have you the remotest idea of how the English language arrived at its present state Bonzo?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 05:39 AM

You/one may/can/might break "rules" willy nilly/willynilly/willy-nilly in every day/every-day/everyday writing or speech. It's perfectly alright/all right to do so, although/though/albeit there are several examples of inelegance in this lot that I wouldn't like to see in a novel, a learned journal or one of my regular posts here. Deliberately breaking rules, such as in a light-hearted series' of post's to do with the apostrophe and it's misuse, is perfectly literate. What isn't literate is breaking rules unknowingly, excusable in most cases but inexcusable when the writer is indulging in high-flown tones or when he's criticising someone else's alleged breaches. That's what Nigel did (though I cheerfully admit that it was probably just a bit of rubbishy proofreading), and that's a practice from which we would be well advised to swiftly move on. God, how I love those split infinitives. A great example of a rule that was never a rule in the first place. As with incomplete sentences. And as with starting sentences with conjunctions. Even those damned incomplete ones. There are times when nitpicking over rules is simply not apropos.

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 05:10 AM

Iains said the purpose of any language is to communicate and I agree. The rules of grammar are an attempt to agree what precisely is meant by a construct, but every language is too wild a creature to be so bound. Richard II has been referenced of late in other threads, and it contains the wonderful rejoiner "Uncle me no uncles". In context at least, absolutely clear what it means, but I doubt if it abides by all the rules of grammar. Similarly therw was a reference to 'Under Milk Wood': an exuberant display of language whose meaning comes across though many rules are broken along the way.

So rules have their place and it would be foolish to ignore them entirely, but they are to my mind the servants of language, not the overlord.

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 05:08 AM

When young people hero worship abominations like Stormzy and the like, it’s little wonder the English language has gone wrong!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 04:40 AM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 07:43 PM
I’m perfectly happy to interact with you in the most affectionate internet style possible, Nigel (in deference to your complaint, I’ll call you Nigel from now on, though I note your stony silence on “Jom,” “Jimmy,” “Carroll” and “Shaw,” presumably because you think that it’s fine for your forum ally to piss around with our names but not fine for us to piss around with yours. Hmm...).
I have commented on this in the past, quite clearly: (Post Brexit life in UK 1/10/17 11:20
I am not supporting those who miss-use Jim's given name. I'm pointing out that Jim, or yourself, should conduct yourselves in the way you expect others to conduct themselves. I do not address comments to "Jom" or "Carroll" and I can understand why he gets annoyed with those who do. But he can hardly complain about it if he does the same for the names of others. (Such as calling Theresa May "Mayflower"). I was pointing out his double standards in this respect.
The fact that you responded to that comment suggests that you read it. You have also, in the past, objected to others responding to you just as 'Shaw', but see no problem with adjusting my name to fit in with your preferences. More double standards.
Also I have no “forum ally”. My posts represent my thinking, and I would not have it any other way.


“You have totally failed to address any of the instance I have quoted of your misuse of the English language...”
We’ll just allow the irony of that sentence to stand, shall we, Nigel?
Yet it still remains true!

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 04:23 AM

Totally independently of this thread, I got into a discussion with my wife about the differences between pirates and buccaneers (initially: then we threw privateers into the mix).

If you were on the receiving end, it mattered little so they may as well be synomyns for you. And unless you are writing a history book or similar you can still largely regard then as synonyms since the role of licences is not usually relevant to the conversation. Yet even in common use 'buccaneer' contains "Errol Flynn" overtones that pirate does not.

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Mr Red
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 04:04 AM

to a relatively uneducated Scot.

How about "uptake"?

They use it in NZ meaning "pick up", and I have heard it from a colleage speaking lalland Scortz
I like the Lowland Scots word outwith, the only phrase that comes close being not withstanding but it has a shade of meaning

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 03:48 AM

What I said above is true, UK English has been totally fucked up, especially in the Croydon area, by the hotpot of immigration from somewhere else, whether white, black or sky blue pink.

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 09:50 PM

After reading the last few posts I had to go back to actually find what this thread was about.

You witter on about names, none of that matters in the least. You can call one another what you like. It really does not matter. Shaw IS his name, the fact that I do not include the "Steve" is just the measure of contempt I hold him and his views in. In this practice he is as guilty as I am. Personally he would never have come to my notice apart from his unmitigated and remorseless bullying of Keith A of Hertford some four years ago.

So Steve Shaw can rest assured that whatever he states on this forum - I will challenge ad refute it.

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 08:35 PM

(Steve in Dick Emery mode) Ooo, you are awful, Jack --- but I like you!

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Jack Campin
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 07:59 PM

There are no more Nigels

Perhaps because of:

IKEA

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 07:43 PM

I’m perfectly happy to interact with you in the most affectionate internet style possible, Nigel (in deference to your complaint, I’ll call you Nigel from now on, though I note your stony silence on “Jom,” “Jimmy,” “Carroll” and “Shaw,” presumably because you think that it’s fine for your forum ally to piss around with our names but not fine for us to piss around with yours. Hmm...).

“You have totally failed to address any of the instance I have quoted of your misuse of the English language...”

We’ll just allow the irony of that sentence to stand, shall we, Nigel?

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 07:22 PM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 06:54 PM

Hey, Donuel, “Nige” is an affectionate, informal way of addressing anyone called Nigel this end. I know two blokes called Nigel and call them both Nige, as does everyone else,

To quote Francis Urquhart (House of cards) "You might think that. I couldn't possibly comment."

I prefer the use of my name as it was given to me. I don't accept that anyone else has the right to decide what is a suitable variation on my name.

You state it is an "affectionate" form, but your postings are anything but.

You have totally failed to address any of the instance I have quoted of your misuse of the English language. Presumably this is because you are unable to do so.

Once it is pointed out to you that you are in error (such as your idea that 'synonyms' are interchangeable) you just start berating my writing style, and suggesting that I should "lighten up".

Your comment:
From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 06:11 PM
You're becoming the forum saddo, Nige. Lighten up. We've transmogrified your thread into something potentially pleasant!
is an excellent example of an attack on someone whom you are unable to interact with as your perceived 'superiority' (in your view only) totally fails.

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 06:54 PM

Hey, Donuel, “Nige” is an affectionate, informal way of addressing anyone called Nigel this end. I know two blokes called Nigel and call them both Nige, as does everyone else, and they wouldn’t want to be called anything different. Yours sincerely, Shaw, friend of Jom, Jimmy and Backwards (about which soubriquets you appear to say nothing...)

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 06:46 PM

Teribus is losing it bigtime, Dave. He was mortally wounded by Joe’s excellent post which characterised him as a problem poster. He’s been unstable ever since. Take no notice from now on. He’s a very old man who’s totally isolated and burnt out. I wouldn’t bother responding to his bile. Just tell him the truth, which is that he’s a bitter old man who needs help.

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 05:27 PM

But before this thread should, quite deservedly, bite the dust. how come I was brought into an argument on the closed thread?

How was it the Gnome put it? Ah yes - "The epitome of politeness"

WTF are you on about tezzer? Why bring me into it? Again? I am getting worried about your fixation with me...

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 05:12 PM

What a blatantly obvious way to have a go at someone! Surely threads should not be allowed to start with the premise of purely having a go at someone should they?

And then the post English is being bastardised by low class immigrants and their hideous music, simple as that. is so nasty and racist that, in my opinion. it should be immediately removed.

Please delete this obnoxious shite mods.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: keberoxu
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 04:34 PM

Mud, mud, glo-ri-ous mud ...

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 02:11 PM

“ The French will argue for hours over the smallest details of their language, and I love that they do."
As a result of this, the french [sic] language is dying.

As a result of what? The article you linked to gives a number of reasons for the decline, but yours is not one of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Iains
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 01:47 PM

English word gigabyte
French       gigaoctet
Irish       gigabyte
Welsh       gigabyte
Spanish      gigabyte

Says it all really!

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 01:18 PM

My mrs [South Welsh] has been half-heartedly learning Welsh for years,
to at least make an effort for her Bi lingual family members married in from further up North Wales...

I find it interesting & amusing how Welsh speakers [and more cosmopolitan / educated Indians] pepper their conversation with random English words and phrases...

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Iains
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 01:05 PM

" The French will argue for hours over the smallest details of their language, and I love that they do."
As a result of this, the french language is dying. Better the english way where the US, Australia, New Zealand and Canada, to name but a few, to keep the language fluid and evolving.
The fixation of the French on the preservation of their language reminds me of Afrikaans. Their technical language never evolved beyond describing bits of a bullock cart.
French decay

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 12:24 PM

English is being bastardised by low class immigrants and their hideous music, simple as that.

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 12:24 PM

Steve Shaw, in America 'Nigel' is a perfectly proper English name.

Your abbreviated use of Nigel as NIG or Nige is not.

You can keep your invitation to a cup of coffee.
It's incredibly cheap anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Jeri
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 09:55 AM

Thank you, Jack. I love adding to my vocabulary.
Those religious guys back then really knew how to curse!

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Jack Campin
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 06:33 AM

Jack, what is a "funling"?

Literally "foundling" but in that context (The Flyting o Dunbar and Kennedie) it seems to mean "runt". "Wan-fukkit" for Dunbar meant that your parents were so unenthusiastic and lackadaisical about fucking each other that they didn't fuck you into existence properly.

I don't think Gavin Dunbar, Archbishop of Glasgow, was any relation, but his "Great Cursing" is the work of somebody who could really have used the Internet effectively:

http://www.biggararchaeology.org.uk/pdf_reports/BASTLE_CURSINGS.pdf

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 06:17 AM

I’d politely suggest that the thread in question bit the dust (if we really must ruminate over such things instead of just moving on) largely as a result of the tirade of four crude attacks from Teribus in the space of a few hours. And you’re just jealous, Iains. Anyway, this is a thread in which we may presumably express our opinions about the use of English, as Stu has just done and as I have also done in the thread, without being accused of “posturing.”

I’m also a fan of Roger’s Profanisaurus. I have several books on the use of English and find that none is comprehensive, but my favourite is Mind The Gaffe by Larry Trask. One thing that always comes across is that many of the alleged rules are not rules at all (you can even say “irregardless” if you want to), as English is defined by the way it’s used and not by professors in English departments. But I agree with Stu to the extent that there’s no harm in fighting to preserve useful points of grammar and nuances of expression. I once forced a PE teacher to rewrite a pupil’s report in which he’d stated that the lad was disinterested in athletics. When it comes to what we write, the primary concern should be clarity of expression. Making the recipient of your typing work harder on interpretation than they should have to marks a failure of communication, communication, after all, being the thing that language is supposed to be about.

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Iains
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 05:14 AM

Hope you’re listening, Iains... Nope! Too far away-LUCKILY! By the way, the WE is the poor readers of these threads, subjected to your endless posturing.

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Stu
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 05:06 AM

English is a wonderful and constantly evolving language and I have no issue with grammatical, definition, etymological and other language-based pedantry; it shows people care abut their language. The French will argue for hours over the smallest details of their language, and I love that they do.

As for the last thread being chucked into the chod-bin:

"Not my bit. Up yer arse! Toffee-nosed dimwit. I shouldn't mock. Tory/Kipper tosspots have no idea what England is or ever was."

It was a joke, seemed to be taken by Iain's as such and I enjoyed his reply thoroughly; you'd haver to be a little dense and/or making trouble to think otherwise. It was a bit of banter in a thread that was dominated (again) by the squabblers. You forgot my reply, "Arse pearls!". I stand by this last statement especially, and if it irritates those with a superiority complex over language , then all the better.


Top books on language as recommended by Stu:

Anything by Robert McFarlane, but Landmarks in particular

Under Mil Wood by Dylan Thomas. Almost a drug it's so intoxicating.

Roger's Profanisaurus to both prove the vitality of the English language, the inventiveness of the people of England and to piss off the smunts. Shakespeare would have LOVED this.

The Collected works of Ted Hughes. Language articulating and communicating a deep understanding of England and her ancient, wild soul. This is as close to magic as exists. Heck, it might be magic.

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 04:57 AM

Aside from the “royal we” there, which is very amusing, not to say ironic, I’d just say that I enjoy reading well-constructed English no matter which side of the Atlantic it emanates from. Spellcheckers have a habit of sneaking in rogue apostrophes which may elude the final editing, especially if done on a phone, and that’s excusable. What’s more annoying is densely-constructed English with rambling, unfocused sentences and dodgy, inconsistent grammar that impolitely forces the reader to do too much mental processing. Hope you’re listening, Iains...

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Iains
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 03:40 AM

The sole function of english, both written and spoken, is to enable people to communicate. It is constantly changing and in a global world
local variants of spelling and meaning can infest the internet and achieve dominance within milliseconds.With spellchecker on this forum reverting to american spelling, it is easier to go with the flo, rather than look at a sea of red underlining. As the language is fluid in usage, idioms, spelling, grammar and punctuation it has to be the height of arrogance for anyone person to assume they have both the knowledge and authority to correct another on this highly international forum. Most here left grade school education decades ago and forever being subjected to the "assumed superiority" of the " boasting resident pedan"t is extremely tiresome. Better a tirade on cheap booze or an infestation of weeds. We are not impressed.

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Oct 17 - 03:20 AM

I believe that the posts that closed "The Essence of England" thread were:

1: Subject: RE: BS: The Essence of England
From: Stu - PM
Date: 06 Oct 17 - 06:07 AM

"The essence of England is of course rule by Tories."

Not my bit. Up yer arse! Toffee-nosed dimwit. I shouldn't mock. Tory/Kipper tosspots have no idea what England is or ever was.


2: Subject: RE: BS: The Essence of England
From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 06 Oct 17 - 01:44 PM

Of the 146 posts to the thread those two stand out for reasons that are obvious to anyone who would care to read them.

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Jeri
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 09:38 PM

Also: "get outta town!"

Jack, what is a "funling"?

🤔🙂

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Rapparee
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 09:33 PM

One can always, if one wishes, use the original emoticons: :-) or ;-) or :{) (if one has a mustache) or <|:-7 if you happen to be a witch smoking a pipe. Or even 7:^] if you happen to be Ronald Reagan.

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 08:51 PM

so.. emojis still don't work during Max's home improvements...

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 08:49 PM

arseholes...???

arse-holes...???

arse holes...???

.. bewildering.. perplexing... too many options..
.. and mudcat spell check / spellcheck / spell-check insists they are all wrong....!!!!!!?????


[whilst happily accepting and passing as correct all three options of it's own alternative variations...???] ??

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: meself
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 08:28 PM

Seems to me that when I was a teenager, getting into the '70s, 'Get outta here!' was a not-uncommon expression of scornful incredulity, and was soon shortened to 'Get out!' That was in southern Ontario. The usage of 'Get out!' to express often-joyful surprise is newer, in my experience.

In the Maritimes, it was 'Go 'way with you!' or 'G'way whicha!' or just 'Go 'way!' or 'Gway!'. This was clearly an older and more established idiom.

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Jack Campin
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 06:27 PM

recently, Get out! has come to mean "I don't believe you."

Whereas "get away!" means "wow, that's surprising".

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 06:11 PM

You're becoming the forum saddo, Nige. Lighten up. We've transmogrified your thread into something potentially pleasant!

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 06:06 PM

You matured at 40, Joe? I'm 66 and I'm nowhere being mature, and I LOVE it! When it comes to "cheap," I care not a jot. If I can buy a bottle of cheap wine that tastes good, gimme cheap every time. A rose by any other name...

As for "Americanisms," most of them predate the alleged "British English" versions, and most of them make a damn sight more sense. I have to keep using the illogical British-English spellings and constructions as I'd seem to be a terrible pedant were I not to. I feel like I'm in a cage.

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: leeneia
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 05:45 PM

Dictionaries are helpful, but in speech we put words in context.

If my music stand fall apart, I might say it is a cheap piece of junk. Here,the stand is what's cheap.

If I buy a fine guitar for $50, then the guitar was cheap, but it is not a piece of junk. The price, not the guitar, was cheap.
=========
One of the problems of English for learners is that we use simple words to mean many things. Take ""get."

I get this thread - understand it.

I'll get a loaf of bread - obtain it.

To get the flu - be infected

You're gonna get it! - be punished

Get out! - leave

and recently, Get out! has come to mean "I don't believe you."
=========
As for "gotten", if you are not aware that American speech preserves old forms, then you haven't done much reading about the English language.

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 04:54 PM

As for proof-reading, I failed to close a double inverted commas in that last post. (after "Understand")

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Jack Campin
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 04:53 PM

Wan-fukkit funlings, all of you.

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 04:38 PM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 03:34 PM

You don't really get closed threads, do you, Nige? Stop being so defensive. If you really want to discuss the use of English, start a general thread, not one in which you want to snarl at someone who said something to you in a thread that was closed (thankfully, I'd say, considering the bad behaviour of your close ally during its dying gasps).

I'm no mod and this isn't my gig, but if I was one I'd consign this ill-starred attempt at a thread to the dustbin here and now. And do attend to your proofreading, Nige. I'm watching! Only one error in your opening post, so well done for that!

You seemed, in the past, to support Jim Carroll's view about use of people's names. Is it so difficult to type the five digits of "Nigel"? I will avoid referring to you as "Ste", as that might be considered unsuitable.
You state I made a mistake in my use of English. It might be interesting to know what you believe was wrong.
One day I may find myself conversing with someone who has a better grasp of the English than I have. I'm sure it won't be you.

I'm assuming that "You don't really get closed threads" is using "get" to mean "understand. I do 'get' closed threads. they appear on the Mudcat frequently.

As for my "ally" in the closed thread, I had none. I speak for myself only. You may see all of this as opposing groups, but that is just paranoia on your part.

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Jack Campin
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 04:16 PM

"Gotten" is okay in Scots. Burns used it, though maybe not as enthusiastically as some Americans do.

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 04:03 PM

I think this could be an interesting thread especially the "Americanisms", my favourite being "gotten".
It appears to be widely used, but sounds incongruous to a relatively uneducated Scot.

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 03:59 PM

"Back in the grades" (as one professor used to call elementary school), I was taught that "synonyms" are words that mean the same thing. As I matured (i.e., hit 40), I became aware that synonyms rarely mean exactly the same things - they have different tones and different shades of meaning. "Cut-price" and "cheap" and "bargain" all have different shades of meaning. I like buying discounts and bargains, but I don't like to buy things that are "cheap."

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 03:34 PM

You don't really get closed threads, do you, Nige? Stop being so defensive. If you really want to discuss the use of English, start a general thread, not one in which you want to snarl at someone who said something to you in a thread that was closed (thankfully, I'd say, considering the bad behaviour of your close ally during its dying gasps).

I'm no mod and this isn't my gig, but if I was one I'd consign this ill-starred attempt at a thread to the dustbin here and now. And do attend to your proofreading, Nige. I'm watching! Only one error in your opening post, so well done for that!

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 03:13 PM

The previous thread was The essence of England

Subject: BS: Use of the English language
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 07 Oct 17 - 03:10 PM

Initial quote is from a closed thread where I didn't get an opportunity to respond to Steve Shaw, who seems to have a superiority complex (undeserved) about the use of the English language.

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 06 Oct 17 - 12:44 PM

Well you need to get out more, Nigel. You move away from hyphens if you want to. I shall continue to use them where I think they make things clearer. And there's not a lot wrong with my grasp of English and I don't like remarks of that kind. I've got my eye on you now, you silly lad. I should hire a proofreader from now on if I were you.
I have no objection to the use of hyphens when they add to the clarity of the English language.

But I have no need of a proof-reader when discussing whether “Cut-price” means the same as “cheap”.
Your argument Cut-price is a perfectly good synonym of cheap or bargain displays a total ignorance of what a ‘synonym’ is.
According to the OED: Synonym: A word or phrase which means exactly the same, or nearly the same as another word or phrase in the same language.

The point of dictionaries of synonyms (thesauruses, or thesorai) is that they give you a number of alternatives to a given word, to allow you to select the one closest in meaning to what you intend. This does not mean that any word within the same heading is totally interchangeable.
If you wish to ‘deconstruct’ my comments to show where I’m in error, please go ahead. You have stated in the past that you have done so with others, but I feel that I will meet, and negate, any challenge you choose to make.

And there's not a lot wrong with my grasp of English and I don't like remarks of that kind
You fail to state what kind of remarks you don’t like.

Your turn!