BS: Use of the English language

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Monique
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 06:08 AM

An answer to Dave's comment: The History of English Podcast, it's really great.

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 06:14 AM

"Have you the remotest idea of how the English language arrived at its present state Bonzo?"

Even our new puppy, rescued from Romania, doesn't have an English bark!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 06:15 AM

"The Adventure of English" by Melvyn Bragg is also worth a read.

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Stu
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 06:20 AM

"As a result of this, the french language is dying"

Thou speakest through one's nipsy good sir. Last time I was in France everyone was speaking French, hardly a language about to go bristol's skyward.

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 07:45 AM

It was the "as a result of this" that mystified me, especially after I'd read the item. As Dubya said, the trouble with the French is that they haven't even got a WORD for "entrepreneur" in their language...

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 08:31 AM

According to the mrs [conversation 2 or 3 weeks ago]

The recently rebooted new series of The Teletubbies has them speaking English with a little more clarity
than the classic original 1990s series...


Whatcha got to say about that then Bonz..

Bloody interfering modern PC revisionists..
leave our Trad British culture of children's TV puppets [or actors in bloody daft costumes]
talking complete bollocks gibberish alone...

Where's Stanley Unwin when we need him the most...?????

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 08:53 AM

Or Bill and Ben!

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 09:37 AM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 07:45 AM
It was the "as a result of this" that mystified me, especially after I'd read the item. As Dubya said, the trouble with the French is that they haven't even got a WORD for "entrepreneur" in their language...

Another masterful piece of research there.
However, I suppose it makes you feel linguistically superior to George W Bush, even if he never said it: Snopes

I recall the same story being told about an English MP (some years ago) The quote then was "The trouble with the Welsh is that they have no word for entrepreneur". George Thomas (Speaker of the house, and a Welshman) responded by asking what the English word was.
Of course, that might also be an invented tale, but it has been around long enough (several decades) that someone thought they could re-use it and attribute it to George W Bush.

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 09:46 AM

Bill Bryson's 'Mother tongue' is pretty good too.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 10:20 AM

I must say, I am really enjoying this thread.

To paraphrase, never have so many been vanquished by so few.

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 10:48 AM

Jaysus, I KNOW he didn’t actually say it, Nigel. You really are a po-faced literalist, aren’t you? (And guess what Nigel’s going to say next...)

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 10:57 AM

Quotes from Steve Shaw:
1.         As Dubya said, the trouble with the French is that they haven't even got a WORD for "entrepreneur" in their language
2.         I KNOW he didn’t actually say it,
No need to argue with him any more. He’s arguing with himself

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 11:31 AM

I was being whimsical. Anyone normal here would have seen that. Dubya didn’t wave at Stevie Wonder either. It’s what we do to politicians, Nigel. Had I said it about a Saudi king my head and torso would now be in separate rooms. So I love to say stupid things about Dubya because I can. I find it devilishly amusing and I don’t expect anyone to think I’m telling the literal truth. Now move on, Nigel. You’ve flogged it to death. They do that in some non-democracies too. Un-po that long face of yours, otherwise it’ll set that way. I wonder whether that’s true...

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 12:00 PM

You may see me as 'po faced'. And say that you were being whimsical. But you put it forward as a statement (no emoticons, or other signals to suggest that you didn't believe what you were saying).

How many of the 'facts' that you propound in other threads are also your 'whimsy'?

Presumably there is no point disagreeing with you about anything, as once you are proved wrong you'll just say you never really meant it.

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 12:02 PM

Well I’ll just have to keep you guessing, won’t I?

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 12:40 PM

Sainsbury's don't help with its ludicrous "colleague announcements". The person calling these always looks very uncomfortable when I ask her why she doesn't say "staff anouncement"!!!!!!! PC gone mad!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 01:10 PM

It's a way of trying to level the playing field a little, Bonzo. Everyone is of equal importance in an organisation such as Sainsburys, from the Chief executive to the trolley collector. They are all colleagues, as they are where I work too. Colleague is not a new phrase. If you are still of the opinion that people are to be treated as underlings and to be there at your beck and call then a good dose how we should treat people in the 21st century would not do you any harm at all. Nothing to do with political correctness.

Mind you, it would be even better if they paid us all the same as well :-)

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: keberoxu
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 01:18 PM

. . . and there let us wallow
In gloooooo - ri - ous MUD.

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 01:29 PM

Gloria Smud? I think she went to our school.

What is this thing called love?

What IS this thing called, love?

What! Is thing thing called love?



DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: keberoxu
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 01:37 PM

W. H. Auden:   O tell me the truth about love!

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 01:57 PM

one for the English language pedants

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 05:49 PM

Waitrose always refer to their staff as partners. They always seem to be reasonably happy working there.

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 06:28 PM

I heard the Wurzels doing that one in Bude in about 1992. The Wurzels got on our tits after a few songs, sorry to say. The Acker Bilk gig the same week (or was it the same gig?) was much better!

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 06:35 PM

Blocked in your country on copyright grounds.

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 07:12 PM

You’re not missing much!

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Mr Red
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 03:51 AM

"As a result of this, the french language is dying"

Académie française are still fighting a rear-guard action to preserve French. And losing on many fronts. Le weekend being the famous example.
It was set up to give the country a single means of communication, and has not failed there. Despite: Basque, Breton (Gallo & Roman), Alsace (German) still being spoken.

As the first editor of the Oxford English Dictionary pointed out somewhat to the effect:
"a language has a very well defined centre, and a periphery that is more and more nebulous the further it goes out".

some English words survive despite an onslaught for the colonies. Take faucet - in proper English that is a wooden device for regulating/dispensing liquid from a barrel. And to get it into the barrel you tap it. It is easy to see how the words stuck in the colonies, whereas lazy Brits favoured a single syllable appellation. BUT an English billion has shrunk to an American billion - probably because commerce is worldly, and water is personal.

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Iains
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 04:20 AM

You know the plot is lost when you employ a commission to preserve the language.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/8820304/Frances-Academie-francaise-battles-to-protect-language-from-Engl

"The Académie, a council of 40 writers and artists, is entrusted with protecting French from “Anglo-Saxon” attacks and writing an official dictionary, of which the latest unfinished version began in 1992."

English has been under successful attack since the year dot and no-one, but no-one, gives a sh*t.

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 08:23 AM

"arse" sounds good robust and strong

"ass" just sounds insipid and weak

I'm not a xenophobe, but I do enjoy and prefer arsepects of British language
and will resist Americanisation / Americanization...

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Stu
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 08:33 AM

"Basque, Breton (Gallo & Roman), Alsace (German) still being spoken."

Occitan.

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 08:52 AM

.. and it's not just verbal and written language,
this American cultural imperialism is an insidious process..

No.. I will bloody well not ever 'High 5" anyone... ever...

... thinks back to last time in a guitar shop when the over enthusiastic puppy young salesman took me by surprise
and I just stood there arms by my sides while his hand was hovering over me high up in the air...
I looked at him as the huge grin on his face drained and he began to look confused, deflated, then offended...
His arm lowering hesitantly as if he was still in the hope I would take the cue and respond to his childlike gesture...

Very awkward situation for a mature Englishman to contend with...


Mind you, when I was a little kid I thought everything American on the telly was brilliant and much better than stuffy old England..
Us kids at infant and junior school were so envious of American boys and girls...

oh yes.. and bollocks to invasion of 'High Schools' and 'Proms'

This is the UK - Kids at big school should stick to traditional 'School Discos'...

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 09:02 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: punkfolkrocker - PM
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 08:52 AM
.. and it's not just verbal and written language,
this American cultural imperialism is an insidious process..

No.. I will bloody well not ever 'High 5" anyone... ever...

Guilty . . .
But only following a Strike in tenpin bowling, so it comes as part and parcel of that 'cultural import'

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 09:12 AM

I was high fiving people as they moved round the circle in the opposite direction at a ceilidh on Saturday. Only on the instructions of the caller I hasten to add :-)

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 09:13 AM

.. and the great British 'V' sign beats all measly single middle finger insults.

Two fingers thrust insolently forward with conviction conveys far more power and strength of meaning...

Bow before our manly V signs you upstart immature pathetic middle fingers...

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: TheSnail
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 09:17 AM

High 5

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 09:55 AM

That guarantees my vote for the old bloke...

.. and my mrs [South Welsh valleys girl] wishes that would catch on as a form of social greeting...

.. and btw.. which side of the Atlantic did stomach churningly discomforting air kissing emanate from...???

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 10:57 AM

My two-year-old grandson and I prefer fist bumps.

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 11:54 AM

Fist bumps are certainly more hygienic...

To be honest, I'm not very good at being a traditional British gentleman..

I've never liked hand shakes either..

I really detest touching another bloke's hands..
because I do know where they've most likey been and what they've been touching,
and the average British male's aversion for hand washing...

Little wonder I'm such an asocial recluse...???

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 11:58 AM

I really detest touching another bloke's hands..
because I do know where they've most likey been and what they've been touching,
and the average British male's aversion for hand washing...

That's why you need to wash your hands going into the toilets.
You wouldn't want to get your willy dirty!

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 12:04 PM

Two men leaving the gents, but only one washes his hands. He turns to the other and says:
"My mother taught me to was my hands after using the urinal."
the other replies:
"My dad taught me not to pee on my fingers!"

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 12:40 PM

It’s no use standing on the seat
The germs round here can jump six feet

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Mr Red
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 05:32 PM

The Académie was officially established in 1635
at the time about 50 languages were spoken like Provencal/Occitane - probably Italianate dialects and Swiss patois - Walloon brogues and many more I am ignorant of. The Académie was smart political stratagem in unifying the administrative region. In the modern era it needs a reason to exist so it prescribes edicts that the French are happy to ignore.
The OED on the other hand prefers to document word usage. Gullible has been taken out of the dictionary. Redundant is shaking in its boots!

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: leeneia
Date: 11 Oct 17 - 11:50 AM

Hi, Mr. Red. Thanks for getting this thread back on track about language.

Our topic is English usage, so here's an example of a usage I am tired of, and that is over-use of the ultimate. Here's a quotation from a thread about a fairly modern Scottish song:

"It is a total mystery to me why anyone would actually want the lyrics to this appallingly sentimental garbage."

Notice the strong terms:

total mystery
actually want
appallingly* sentimental
garbage

Actually, the writer merely thinks the lyrics are twee. And apparently he knows nothing of the value of the melody.

*(Appalling? If you want to experience something truly appalling, learn about child abuse.)

==========
I've heard this kind of talk so many times. Something merely imperfect is pronounced "dreadful." A band that's mediocre is pronounced "atrocious."

Come to think of it, this is a mild form of bullying.

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Oct 17 - 12:02 PM

The over-use of hyperbole in English is disgusting and I must have said that a million times.

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 Oct 17 - 12:17 PM

it's all a load of hyperbollocks...!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Oct 17 - 12:17 PM

And don't get me started on those people who over-use exclamation marks!! Diabolical!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Oct 17 - 12:18 PM

What an incredibly coincidental cross-post, pfr!

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Oct 17 - 12:23 PM

And putting remarks in brackets (however relevant the remarks) is (nearly always) completely unnecessary (well at least in most circumstances I can think of).

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 Oct 17 - 12:25 PM

I think the main purpose of a classic British grammar school education was to learn how to ignore and abuse the rules of strict English language pedantry...!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!????????????????????????????????? ?


[if emojis still don't work - visualise my usual cheeky winky sticky out tongue emoticon..]

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Oct 17 - 12:32 PM

But surely the worst thing is those unwarranted follow-on sentences, they're absolutely terrible!

Subject: RE: BS: Use of the English language
From: Iains
Date: 11 Oct 17 - 12:57 PM

People voicing an opinion and expecting all to accept it as fact.