What is Happening to our Folk Clubs

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Nov 17 - 05:28 AM

Fred's description fits in pretty well with what was gradually starting to happen at the time in many clubs - standards were being deliberately lowered to put more bums on seats and the 'anything goes' policies gradually introduced an air of "where did all the folk songs go?" among those who came looking for ballads and traditional songs
Fred Woods was one of those who helped instigate the 'Crap Begets Crap' series of protests about the lowering standards.
'Ewan MacColl once said that a singer should learn a new song every week"
Ewan tended to exaggerate his claims, but The Singers Club did try to instigate a policy where residents were asked not to sing the same song within a couple of months (regular requests being the accepted exceptions)
It did guarantee that you always came away hearing new songs each time
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Nov 17 - 05:58 AM

We were encouraged to perform the same material every week if that's all we had. I think that was seen as better than having nothing. Maybe, in the long run, it wasn't...

I'm not a singer, but I'd guess that learning a song that you were perhaps going to accompany yourself on, sufficiently well to do it with without artificial aids, is a bigger ask than learning a new tune. I'd also add, speaking from the bitter experience of more than a few train-wrecks, that you can THINK you've learned a new piece well enough to get out there and do it, then, as soon as you get in front of people...

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Nov 17 - 06:09 AM

Can I say that every club I was ever part of offered a workshop or at least a group of volunteers who made themselves available to help anybody who requested it.
The workshop we ran longest (about fifteen years) acquired an archive of donated recordings and eventually books for the use of the singers - I am now left fith th dubious honour of passing on a massive archive of now digitised recordings to anybody prepared to use it for the purpose it was originally intended
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Dick Miles
Date: 21 Nov 17 - 03:11 PM

"the reason can normally be found in its residents. If they are content to churn out the same old songs week after week, they cvan hardly be surprised when they start churning them out to smaller and smaller audiences. It is a bsic and obvious truth, but it i"s one against which many resident singers are complacently blinkered."
not my experience at all, and i have gigged in many hundreds over 40 years

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Dick Miles
Date: 21 Nov 17 - 03:17 PM

one of the NEWPORT FOLK CLUBS, not the lyceum club[ there are two on the same night] that does not allow visiting floor singers, has adopted a policy that is ridiculous and idiotic. this must be one of the daftest rules ever adopted by a folk club

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Nov 17 - 05:02 PM

That's up to them. Who are you to dictate how they run their club ? They have a perfect right to be "daft" without justifying anything to you or anyone else other than the people who pay money to come in the door. If you don't like it, please stay away.

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Dick Miles
Date: 21 Nov 17 - 06:07 PM

Iam not dictating to anyone,I am criticising, which in most societies is allowed.Hpowever i did not like it and i did stay away, and furthermore anonymous cowardly guest pleas stay away and fuck off with your troliing

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Nov 17 - 06:55 PM

Have a bit more of a think about this, Dick. There are two categories of "non-resident" floor spot guests, those you know and those you don't. Of those you know, some will be good and some will be crap. Of those you don't know, some will be good, some will be crap but the difference is you don't know until they get up there to either enhance or ruin your evening. If you have a really popular club, in this regard it's quite right that you get to call the shots. Another consideration that kicks in, especially if your club is very popular, is that your regular, loyal residents will turn up ready to strut a bit of their stuff. A willy-nilly policy of letting outsiders, known or unknown, good or crap, take up the limited available time is that you may be frustrating your regulars. It could be that a few of 'em could do with a bit of frustrating at times. But it's a difficult balance to achieve, the club organisers are on a hiding to nothing and they deserve a bit of understanding even if they come up with rules that jar.

Our club died in 1996 but a few of us continued to keep the fire aflame by setting up a session (largely tunes but with lots of songs too) in the original folk club pub. That session ran for twenty years and was hugely popular. As time went on we learned the hard way that you have to be a bit tough on drop-ins. Some were brilliant and became regulars. Some turned up rarely and added a welcome leavening of the dough. Some weren't too good, didn't really cut it despite our encouragement and didn't hang around. A few were useless/domineering/full of ego/loud/insensitive accompanists/wanted to do rock and roll/wanted to bang a bodhran or rattle spoons all night/thought they were the dog's bollocks/were doing a takeover bid/ignored the very casual protocol that was, er, unspoken and lightly-worn. Worst of all, they were the bad pennies. It's quite hard to stop being too nice to say anything. It's easier to be tough at the outset. We have to remember that going to a folk club or a pub session is supposed to about everyone there, players and listeners alike, having a good time. You will definitely know, considering your long experience, that there are wreckers everywhere. If a folk club sets rules that are there to support their regular and loyal residents and to be cautious about drop-ins, just live with it. The rule has downsides. But I'm afraid I'm with the guest, notwithstanding his abrasive approach.

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Nov 17 - 02:01 AM

Found the exchange of posts between GUEST,Dick Miles - 21 Nov 17 - 03:17 PM and GUEST - 21 Nov 17 - 05:02 PM highly amusing especially when it was capped off by this from Dick Miles:

GUEST,Dick Miles - 21 Nov 17 - 06:07 PM

Iam not dictating to anyone,I am criticising, which in most societies is allowed.Hpowever i did not like it and i did stay away, and furthermore anonymous cowardly guest pleas stay away and fuck off with your troliing

Don't know if you've noticed Dick but criticising is generally not allowed on Mudcat but it does appear to be selectively not only tolerated but encouraged as long as you are arguing from a certain perspective and that those doing the criticising "go with the spirit of the thread".

Guest post of 21 Nov 17 - 05:02 PM is perfectly correct as are Steve Shaw's observations and comments.

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Will Fly
Date: 22 Nov 17 - 03:52 AM

On the rare occasions I'm going to be in a different locality where there's an unknown folk club night in the vicinity, I always try and contact the club in advance to see whether it's ok to do a floor spot. This may save the club organisers embarassment in having to say "no" to the floor spot to my face, and may save me the need to lug my guitar to the club.

I give the club links to my website and YouTube channel, so they can see what they might be letting themselves in for...

Of course, the club may advertise itself as a "come-all-ye" - in which case, I might risk it.

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Dick Miles
Date: 22 Nov 17 - 05:45 AM

I rang this club one week in advance. I do not agree with this policy so i stayed away.
to not give floor singers a chance on at least one occasion and to refuse semi professional or professional performers a chance to perform is in my opinion a mistaken policy, therefore i exercised my right to not support the club by not going.

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Nov 17 - 05:58 AM

I've never had any problem just turning up. People are generally very welcoming.

The Grey Cock in Brum refused to let me sing because they were strictly traddy, and I told them my influences were Ralph McTell - and they said, we have to draw the line somewhere - but that was about forty years ago. I don't think anyone has turned me down since.

I can only think you've been very unlucky in the places you have gone to.

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Nov 17 - 06:07 AM

Well. I'm not a professional or semi-professional, but if I was I'd never try to just turn up and pull that one. This is about knowing what outcome you want and trying your best to achieve it. I can honestly say that I've never turned up anywhere in the hope of having a go and not got to have a go. The thing with a harmonica player is that you can be discreet. You've got a couple of the things in your pocket and who would know? Just let it drop quietly to someone who looks like they might have the ear of the organiser that you can play/sing and wouldn't mind a chance to have a LITTLE go if they can fit you in. Mrs Steve has been known to act out that role for me, which makes me look even more 'umble. I suppose it's tougher if you're toting a guitar, which makes it looks like you've "turned up with intent." A bit of diffidence goes a long way, I've found. Put yourself in the position of a club organiser who quite likely already has a list of enthusiastic regulars who's then confronted by a drop-in with guns a-blazing and suffering from the "you do know who I am, don't you?" syndrome. Could be hard to be diplomatic...

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Dick Miles
Date: 22 Nov 17 - 06:38 AM

"If a folk club sets rules that are there to support their regular and loyal residents and to be cautious about drop-ins, just live with it. The rule has downsides. But I'm afraid I'm with the guest, notwithstanding his abrasive approach."
firstly we are talking about guest booking folk clubs not pub sessions, in my considerable experience [40 years getting paid to play at folk clubs]this is the first occasion that i have come across that a club refuses to allow outside singers to perform, in my opinion this is an inward looking policy, outside professional and semi professional singers provide variety and are of a a standard of good quality, that in my experience helps the quality of the evening.
regular and loyal residents should be there to support the club when there are few outside quality singers, they should not be there for there own glory but there for the overall benefit of the club. in future if i am in this area i will support the other folk club in newport.

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Nov 17 - 06:41 AM

Dick Miles calls Newport Folk Club's policies "ridiculous", "idiotic" and "daft". Great way to get a booking. I wasn't "trolling", I was criticising your condescending, know-it-all attitude, Dick Miles, so YOU fuck off.

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Nov 17 - 08:06 AM

Bottom line, Dick, is that they haven't set up their club, an unpaid and voluntary endeavour, in order to bow to the requirements of casual visitors before their loyal regulars. Presumably they book guests that provide the leavening of the bread of the regulars. Have you asked them about the rule, whether it's because they have a lot of really good "regulars" already, and/or whether they've decided the policy democratically, perhaps from bitter experience? If they already have lots of regulars the pickings for each of them might be slim already. Been in that position meself.

I once went to Bodmin folk club on a guest night when Vic Legg was running it at the Garland Ox. It's almost an hour's drive from my house, always an issue in Cornwall. I'd only met Vic once or twice before that. It was heaving. There was no way I had been expecting to play. There were loads of residents strutting their stuff, as ever. My wife sidled up to one of the regulars unbeknown to me and let it be known that I had harmonicas in my pocket (I always have at least one about my person, so nothing unusual there). Admittedly, some of them knew me from the pub session at the Welly in Boscastle so I wasn't a complete unknown. I had to be virtually dragged on to the stage to do some tunes in spite of the crowded goings-on. The harmonicas weren't in the right keys or anything. That's how it should be, but you gotta be nice...

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Dick Miles
Date: 22 Nov 17 - 11:13 AM

I have played Newport folk club several times in the past as a paid guest.
I have no desire to play a club as a paid guest, that operates that singing policy which excludes outside floor singers.
Steve, I have also played Bodmin folk club many times as a paid guest it is a well run folk club
Yes I asked about the rule from one of the organisers of newport folk club, it applies to all outside singers.imo it is an inwards looking exclusive rule that is not one to be encourged
And yes i was polite, consequently i stayed away from the club and will do so in future, I have as much work as i need and will not support a club with this policy.
anon guest there is nothing condescending about disgreeing with a particular clubs policy.

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Nov 17 - 11:33 AM

you sound like a hillbilly. we want folksingers here....!

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Nov 17 - 11:39 AM

I'd like to hear the club's side.

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Dick Miles
Date: 22 Nov 17 - 11:58 AM

Steve, why do you not contact them they have a website, they are newport folk club melbourne, wales, they will undoubtedly tell you that i rang them and asked to do a floor spot and one of the organisers said we do not have any outside floorsingers, because that is what happened,, go ahead and contact them.. telephone Terry on 01633 897923 or Cris on 01633 896347

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Nov 17 - 12:18 PM

Steve,neither is this club policy made clear on their website, that would have saved me a phone call.

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Nov 17 - 12:25 PM

OK, Dick.

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Nov 17 - 01:13 PM

"Steve,neither is this club policy made clear on their website, that would have saved me a phone call."
Why does it have to Dick?
You go to a folk club, you take your chance
When I used to do the door at our club I used to get fed up to the back teeth with arrogant clowns who turned up, demandeded a floor spot than sat in the bars waiting for their turn to go on, then, when they'd done their bit, would piss off without showing the slightest interest in what the club had to offer.
"The Grey Cock in Brum refused to let me sing because they were strictly traddy, and I told them my influences were Ralph McTell "
Nowt wrong with that Al - I knew the people in the Grey Cock - their audiences turned up to hear trad material and it would have been a betrayal of their dedication to give them Ralph McTell - that's not what they turned up for
All clubs have policies - even if it's only 'anything goes' - it's the only principled way to run a club
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Nov 17 - 01:24 PM

"All clubs have policies - even if it's only 'anything goes' - it's the only principled way to run a club"
the purpose of a website is to let people know about the club, that includes its policies.
Jim, i am not travelling hundreds of miles either to take a chance or to go to a club that runs a policy such as that which is inward looking and operates that proscriptive policy, neither will i play such a club as a paid guest.
there are plenty of other folk clubs that i would rather support

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Nov 17 - 01:40 PM

A club - a properly constituted club - belongs to its membership and is perfectly entitled to set its own policies. If those policies don't suit non-members, that's just Tough-Titty, it's the members' club, and the club's policies are the prerogative of those members. Non-members have no dog in the race.

However, it seems perfectly reasonable to expect them to include their policies in respect of would-be visitor-performers in their advertising. Not only would it help to save pointless journeys, it would also be a help in preventing any 'unpleasant' situations.

It's not rocket-science, is it?

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Nov 17 - 01:42 PM

I must confess that their website does seem to indicate that newcomers are welcome to play. Quote:

Q. Can I play there?
A. NFC is home to a fairly eclectic bunch, and everyone is welcome to join in, though we would expect you to practise at home! (see club info)

(In fact the club info adds nothing to that). Elsewhere:

We continue to support and encourage both our regulars, and newcomers to the Club.

On the strength of that I suppose I might expect at least the possibility of having a go (though never as of right). Odd.

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Nov 17 - 01:45 PM

I've always written it "tuff-titty," John! ??

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Nov 17 - 01:47 PM

God, emojis are off the menu again...

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Nov 17 - 01:51 PM

Ah! Don't forget I'm just an old (70) git who doesn't 'get' all the 'Street' talk!
But I stand corrected - from now on, 'Tuff' it is! ??

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Nov 17 - 01:51 PM

I don't do much Ralph McTell material - unless I'm asked to in a pub. Probably less than most trad groups many of whom do From Clare to here,   The girl from the hiring fair, and probably more than I'm not aware of.

However Ralph was a big influence on most decent guitarists on the folkscene. From what I remember of that night at The Grey Cock - the guitar players there could have done with a few hours tuition from Ralph, or me ...come to that.

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Nov 17 - 02:40 PM

"If those policies don't suit non-members, that's just Tough-Titty, it's the members' club, and the club's policies are
the prerogative of those members. Non-members have no dog in the race." they can stay way, or go to the other folk club on the same night in newport.

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Nov 17 - 02:58 PM

"However Ralph was a big influence on most decent guitarists on the folkscene."
Can't say I ever met any in my thirty odd years Al
Peggy Seeger was the most articulate on what she believed an instrument should do to accompany
I remember growing old waiting for the next line of a song while being given interminably long guitar breaks in the middle of songs by a singer who was letting the accompaniment dominate the song rather than the other way around
It makes me yawn to even think about it
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Nov 17 - 03:35 PM

Well Peggy was no slouch at playing. To be honest I can't think of Peggy Gordon without thinking of Peggy's autoharp riffs.

She was an interesting guitarist - I never thought of playing Freight Train Blues in the key of G until I saw Peggy do it. She was a fine frailer of the banjo as well.

I'd hardly say she was an accompanist whose work was spare. And why would it be if you were that good?

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Nov 17 - 04:06 PM

"And why would it be if you were that good?|"
Ill send you a recording of her lecture if you want Al
Jim

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Nov 17 - 04:54 PM

yes I would love that.
I was a huge fan. Had albums of her playing with Mike Seeger and another one of her with Tom Paley - I used to lend my records out to guitar pupils though - so heaven knows where they came to earth. Plus of course all the Ewan ones.

Ian Campbell used to fancy her like mad. " She must be over fifty, and she doesn't look a day over thirty..."

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Nov 17 - 06:30 PM

"they can stay way, or go to the other folk club on the same night in newport."

Well, I don't know anything about Newport, it's a five-hour drive (minimum) from my home, so I'm very unlikely ever to want to go to a folk club there. But yes, that's precisely the corollary of the point I was making. Well done for spotting it.

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Nov 17 - 09:47 PM

lots of things you can do to avoid a corollary....lose weight, cut out fatty foods, gentle exercise.

don't die of ignorance.

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Nov 17 - 01:45 AM

I did, Al - six stone!

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Nov 17 - 01:47 AM

Sorry, make that five stone - haven't had my first cup of tea yet, brain's thirsty! ????

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 Nov 17 - 07:18 AM

well dun!

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Nov 17 - 08:06 AM

Not really - multiple pancreatitis attacks with complications tends to do that to a guy. I've kept most of it off for the past twelve years though, so that's good.

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Nov 17 - 08:07 AM

"haven't had my first cup of tea yet"
Tea's fattening (or so I am contantly being told)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Nov 17 - 09:30 AM

Black tea's fine, Jim! Also OK with skimmed milk, which is how I take it. ?

Since the Pancreatitis, alcohol's a no-no, so it's tea or coffee all the time for me - preferably tea.

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Nov 17 - 10:41 AM

I had an attack of pancreatitis about three years ago that dumped me in hospital for a couple of days, nil by mouth drip job. I recovered completely within hours, but the doc told me that my blood amylase had been sky-high but that there was no discernible bile duct blockage or anything. I returned to cautious boozing a few weeks later (the docs didn't ban me!) and I've had no trouble since. Never say never...

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Nov 17 - 10:57 AM

In my case it's definitely never, ever again steve. Far too much history, but involving, amongst other things, gall-bladder problems, multiple pancreatitis episodes, a pancreatic pseudo-cyst, shrivelled common-bile-duct, four or five laparoscopic endoscopies (top-end downwards), biopsies, two abdominal open-surgeries - one for gall-bladder removal and pseudo-cyst drain, the other for re-plumbing the bile duct and removal of a chunk of pancreas - a 10 cm x 10 cm abscess on my liver, five or six CT scans, three or four MRI scans, and at least ten hospital stays, probably more, ranging from 2 to 5 weeks a go.

So, sadly, 'never' really is 'never'!

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Nov 17 - 11:05 AM

Oh, flippin' eck. I'd better cut down from 12 pints a night to 11...


On holiday in June I did have a slight flare-up of the same pain that put me in hospital but it passed completely after about 30 minutes and was nowhere near as bad. Oddly (and I am a biologist!), the pain was nowhere near where my pancreas and all its workings are situated. Unless I'm plumbed all wrong... Worse things have been said about me!

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 23 Nov 17 - 11:12 AM

It's OK chaps, the thread has already passed 1000. There's no need to string it out.

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Nov 17 - 11:17 AM

Er, it's been OK for a bit. Just a little diversion, that's all.

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Nov 17 - 11:54 AM

It's a great deal more pleasant than ail the huffing and puffing, "I know everything about folk music" and, "St. Ewan of Salford said it so it's an indisputable fact" stuff further up-thread, Bryan.

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 23 Nov 17 - 12:28 PM

Maybe that is "What is Happening to our Folk Clubs". They're filling up with old men grumbling about their ailments.