What is Happening to our Folk Clubs

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: RTim
Date: 26 Oct 17 - 10:34 AM

Here is something for you all to read - an article by a friend - Jin Cowdrey on "Defining Folk Music" - https://bibliolore.org/2017/10/26/defining-the-folk/ - this then has a link to his article - here - http://www.rilm.org/historiography/cowdery.pdf
http://www.rilm.org/historiography/cowdery.pdf

Read and conclude???

Tim Radford

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 26 Oct 17 - 10:53 AM

I had no assumptions of what ahhens oat your club and have vnever commented on such matters

Previously -
You need to know what folk song sounds like, which probably excludes you

No club needs a workable definition - it needs a committee theat lives up to its promise of folk songs -- not at the exclusion of anything else but as a rule of thumb - if you are anything to go by, obviously not yours

Goodbye, Jim. I don't know what you are aiming to achieve or whether you just enjoy a good rant. All you do achieve with each post is to further convince people that you are a mad old git with a massive grudge about something.

("You really are the nsty piece of work I have been warned against, aren't you". Curious. I wonder who has said that. I'll have to ask an old member of the Critics group next time we book one. The only one we have mentioned you to so far sprayed a mouthful of coffee over the breakfast table and was quite entertaining on the subject.)

((Find out how to use a spell checker and do a bit of proof reading before you send for goodness sake.))

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 26 Oct 17 - 11:23 AM

Tim,
Brilliant article. What it mainly demonstrates in relevance to this thread is that some of the greatest folklorists of the 1950s from all over the world could not really reach agreement, even after 6 years of deliberation.

The problem as I see it is there is a great deal of difference as to what constitutes 'folk' in a highly developed world and what it is in a primitive society. In the Western world Karpeles 'definition', that most of them agreed on in 54, works well enough and does not set rigid boundaries, it is a set of descriptors.

However in primitive societies we should not insist on the songs having to have been passed through several generations as there is absolutely no doubt that the creators are part of the folk. (But this is irrelevant to current discussion).

I might comment in greater detail when I have annotated my copy of the article.

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: RTim
Date: 26 Oct 17 - 11:32 AM

Thanks Steve - and I too found it interesting that there was so little agreement and that it took so long. Personally, I am happy with Maude's early definition, and can easily accept this in all cases:

"Maud Karpeles contended that the only satisfactory definition of
folk song was ?a song that during the course of time has been submitted to the process of oral transmission.?"

Tim Radford

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Oct 17 - 12:20 PM

to be fair 'mad old git with a massive grudge about something'....

yeh! mea culpa. a good description of me.

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 26 Oct 17 - 12:38 PM

Never happy with the word 'definition': The 'finit' bit in the middle puts me off applying it to anything that doesn't have absolutely cast iron boundaries.

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Oct 17 - 01:22 PM

"Find out how to use a spell checker and do a bit of proof reading before you send for goodness sake.))"
Not worth it with people who don't read what you write
Bryan - especially for those who use typos as aa substitute for argument
I have explained this before
I can spell perfectly well but have an idiosyncratic keboard I am reluctant to part with because it has a transcribing facility I have been unable to find in another
Anyway - why spoil your fun
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 26 Oct 17 - 01:28 PM

Big Al, if the capo fits...

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Oct 17 - 01:50 PM

"It is only you that DEFINES folk music."
I don't define folk music - it is defined for me
I may be the only one here who accepts there is a definition - different matter altogether
Definitions are for communication - without them we would nt be able to communicate with one another - as is happening here
"I gone over the numerous reasons why it is no longer fit for purpose,"
Wrong again - you have given reasons why the existing one is inconvenient for your purpose, in which case, you need to sort out another one, otherwise discussion becomes pointless and putting a title to your music venue becomes a con (unless you call it a music club, which sounds about right)
"Your loss, completely."
No - your loss - it is your clubs that are fucked up - we have youingsters pouring into our music because they know what they are signing up for.
I know plenty about the UK scene because you people tell me by your attitude to the msusic you are supposed to be presenting
Yo apparently can't even keep enough bums on seats for the erzatz version
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Oct 17 - 02:01 PM

"No - your loss - it is your clubs that are fucked up - we have youingsters pouring into our music because they know what they are signing up for"
Instrumental music mainly, and a homeogeonised version that has the odour of sanctity of CCE, they are signing up for a competitive attitude that CCE encourages, thnks to massive government funding that EFDSS does not receive.

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Raggytash
Date: 26 Oct 17 - 02:55 PM

For the benefit of people in the UK, CCE is Comhaltas Ceoltoiri Eireann, which seeks to promote Irish music and culture worldwide.

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Oct 17 - 03:07 PM

"that has the odour of sanctity of CCE, "
Maybe in your part of the world Dick - not here in the real world
Comhaltas has no influence whatever here
It is the Willie Clancy Summer School and ITMA that has made the difference - not a competition to be seen anywhere
In Dublin The NPU has drawn in young pipers in their hundreds
As far as I know, there are none of the TG4 Musicians of the year from Comhaltas so far
As I said - maybe down in the depths of Cork and Kerry
CCE is what it was pronounced to be by Brendan Breathnach decades ago - "an organisation ith a fine future behind it"
One of the most impressive aspects of North Munster and Connacht music i the number of young musicians who are maturing and taking classes for their juniors independent of any organisation
Our local flute player, who we first remember as a pupil of the early Clancy School has several hundred pupils to her credit and turns them out fifty at a time on each St Pat's Day
Pleasse don't give Comhaltas the credit it does not deserve
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Raggytash
Date: 26 Oct 17 - 03:54 PM

Question for you Jim.

Do you have a good word to say about anyone or anything concerning folk music in the 21st Century?

Frankly Jim, you are a boring old fart.

Suggestion for you, you could be constructive with your time by creating a website with the work you have done collecting and gathering.

It would give you something productive to do with yourself and save the rest of us from your pontificating, yes I've used that word again, your pontificating and your turgid, bombastic and frequently deranged ramblings.

Sweet dreams.

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jack Campin
Date: 26 Oct 17 - 07:42 PM

to be fair 'mad old git with a massive grudge about something'....
yeh! mea culpa. a good description of me.

Maybe, but you're a mad old git who knows how to edit and what the return key is for.

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 27 Oct 17 - 06:29 AM

A good suggestion Raggytash I had thought about making a similar suggestion with You Tube as an alternative but resisted as I expect it will get the usual treatment.

Putting audio tracks up behind photographs of pretty little pussy cats would almost certainly guarantee a huge world wide audience.

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Oct 17 - 07:38 AM

"Maybe, but you're a mad old git who knows how to edit and what the return key is for."
Yeah Jack - quite agree
Maybe we should confine these discussions to the educated and computer literate and keep us oiks out
"Do you have a good word to say about anyone or anything concerning folk music in the 21st Century?"
Of course I do, but the way clubs have progressed in Britain, very little of it (certainly as displayed on forums like this) applies to what happens there
I know there is a club has organised a regular ballad forum - I have the highest respect for the work and track record of Peta Webb and Ken Hall and their club, I have lots of correspondence with Annie Neilsen in Scotland - impressive work on the ballads there - the work in Newcastle with students leaves me full of hope......
There are, I believe, true lovers of folk song to salvage something from the rubble created by the Masonic lodges that call themselves folk clubs - if I didn't believe that, I really wouldn't bother.
"Frankly Jim, you are a boring old fart."
Frankly Raggy, you are a disappointment who is now resorting to personal insults - shame on you - and an ageist, to boot.
I got a lifetime of pleasure, thousands of songs, masses of information from old people
One thing that puzzles me
Previous discussions with you below the line have left me with the impression of a progressive, socially and politically conscious person who respects working people and cares for their culture.
When I say I believe folk song proper to be the voice of the people, the expression of their experiences and ideals, an important part of their social history and one of the few examples of a creative cultural heritage of a section of our population who have long been regarded as having no culture - none of this merits even a mention from you and yours - totally unimportant next to putting bums on a rapidly diminishing numbr of seats for a music that cannot be defined
Sorry about the bad grammer Jack - shall I stay behing in class, do 100 lines or what?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Oct 17 - 07:47 AM

Jim, One of the finest songwriters I have ever come across is Peter Bond. He was, and still is, a superb writer of what I consider to be folk music of the highest quality. His lyrics are acutely observant, supremely crafted, melded with astonishing tunes which are well played and well sung. You may or may not have heard of him. However according to your "rules" he would not be considered folk and that is where I think "your" systems fails ............ dramatically.

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Oct 17 - 08:15 AM

Peter Bond and Keith Marsden and Anthony John Clarke and Vin Garbutt and Roy Bailey and...

Shame none of them are folk singers.

A definition is not the issue Jim. It is interpretation. No matter how clear a definition is, and the 1954 one is far from clear, it will always be interpreted to suit someone's view. Bit like 'Thou shalt not kill'. Pretty clear I would have said but not many of the religious zealots would agree. They have a lot in common with folk zealots I suppose.

DtG

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Oct 17 - 08:24 AM

Steve
I confess I haven't heard Peter Bond, though I seem to remember Paeggy's New City Songster carried one of his songs
Immaterial anyway
How can I get across toy you that folk song is a defined form of worker's culture, not something you like or dislike into existence.
MacColl's songs aren't 'Folk' - he spent his life telling people they weren't
He wrote some of the finest songs using folk forms - I would guess I have about twenty of them in my repertoire?
The term 'folk' isn't something you hand out like the Oscars or you win at Come Dancing - it is a process a song has to pass through before it becomes what it is
It doesn't even have to be good - some folk songs are crap
A definition can only "fail" is it cannot be applied to anything - nothing to do with the merit of what it is defining
Thia is ****** insane.
You don't like the definition because it doesn't cover the things you like - I hate prunes - it doesn't stop making them prunes, or make their definition a failure
Still no comment on workers culture - that says everything that needs to be said for me
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Oct 17 - 08:25 AM

Give me your definition than Dave - it really is as simple as that
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Oct 17 - 08:34 AM

Therein lies a problem. If you had heard Peter Bond songs you would know that many are about workers and their condition. Songs about Industrial Disease, songs about children being killed in mining disasters, a song about a Rugby player who everyone has a good word from and who was mourned by a vast swathe of people. Songs about Larks flying across vapour trails, songs about the stillness that the snow brings. Beautiful songs, eloquent songs.

The archaic definition set down in 1954 precludes such songs being considered folk and is it's fundamental failure because it allows a few people such as yourself to say "that is not folk"

Utter tosh, rubbish and nonsense. That is why people like myself, and I would think, most people on this site think the definition has outlived it's usefulness .......... if it ever had any.

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Oct 17 - 08:35 AM

Isn't categorising things a bit old fashioned? People tag them with various attributes and then draw together those that have the characteristics that are relevant in a particular context.

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 27 Oct 17 - 08:48 AM

Jim you wrote the following...
I know there is a club has organised a regular ballad forum - I have the highest respect for the work and track record of Peta Webb and Ken Hall and their club, I have lots of correspondence with Annie Neilsen in Scotland - impressive work on the ballads there - the work in Newcastle with students leaves me full of hope......
There are, I believe, true lovers of folk song to salvage something from the rubble created by the Masonic lodges that call themselves folk clubs - if I didn't believe that, I really wouldn't bother.

For Gods sake Jim!!!!!!! I gave up in despair trying to make the same point to you a couple of days ago. You really are bloody exasperating.
Now finally and at last PLEASE will you accept that there a lots more people of the same persuasion young and old and that you might actually be of help to them if you threw off this mind numbing cloak of negativity that is driving us all bonkers! Jesus! I'm off for a cup of coffee, only because I don't drink alcohol.

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 27 Oct 17 - 08:58 AM

Jin Cowdrey on "Defining Folk Music"

Thanks for that Tim. It puts the 1954 definition in context as a compromise between the diverse views of a bunch of squabbling scholars. The actual practicioners don't seem to get a look in.

There are some alarming lines -
only that which has the germs of great art must be let loose on the simple-minded public whom we invite to sample our wares.
which puts Ralph Vaughan Williams in a rather different light from how I'd imagined him.

Even more alarming -
Donal O?Sullivan, for example, stated that when scholars encounter newer folk songs that they feel run contrary to the tradition they should not encourage them.
Musn't have the lower orders getting ideas above their station.

Some were less doctrinaire -
His [Albert Marinus] final definition of folkloric song was intentionally vague; a definitive definition, he argued, ?prematurely freezes knowledge.?

This is a bit more encouraging -
Others, like Felix Hoeburger, raised the idea that new developments are signs of a healthy tradition, and that those who place a high value on quaintness are cooperating more with tourism than with scholarship.

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Oct 17 - 09:30 AM

"I gave up in despair trying to make the same point to you a couple of days ago"
I have never said anything different Nick - what concerns me is the ignorance and indifference dominates today's revival
Unless the good clubs get together and push their line we'll be left with Bob Geldof as a role model
I've mentioned the scene as I new it, the radio programmes dedicated to folk, the magazines engaging in exchanging in debate - the shops - all gone.
If I was negative I really wouldn't bother my arse with mind-numbing debates like this - I really am not
I believe the survival of our songs and music depends on it being nurtured
"Donal O?Sullivan, for example, stated that when scholars encounter newer folk songs that they feel run contrary to the tradition they should not encourage them.2
I really could not agree more with O'Sullivan whose work I respect enormously - I would be lost without his tale index andd Handbook
He was writing at a time when there were large numbers of traditional singers still around - and he was right - but he was referring to songs from within a living tradition being ignored, not those from a revival
Our greatest discovery has been the large repertoire of songs that, I suspect were rejected by the collectors because they didn't fit the known repertoire - not the music hall pieces or parlour ballads - everybody knew what they were and where they came from
Our songs were made on the spot by farmers, labourers, fishermen.... as a reaction to something that was happening to them - they were taken into the community, sung for a time, and then forgotten.
Thankfully, some were remembered or recorded in notebooks - 140 of them were published in the nowout-of-print 'Clare Ballads in the 70s, but nobody bothered to follow up the genre at the time
I have no problem wit anything in the article, but they were all making comments on a living or recently dead tradition - not a tiny bunch of clubs that don't care to much for folk song
MacColl had the dream that one day a living tradition could be revived by a wider understanding of the old one - I share that dream
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Oct 17 - 09:41 AM

By the way Bryain
"The actual practitioners don't seem to get a look in."
While I have litle time for many scholars, particularly the desk-bound ones, the definition emerged around the time the BBC were going out recording 'the actual practitioners
The Library of Congress in the States has many thousands of recorded examples of 'the actual practitioners' at work
Just as Sharp's 'Some Conclusions' was based on observation of the real thing taking place, the same goes for the definition makers at Sao Paolo
It is not a perfect definition by any means - it does need updating or even replacing - but not by a diminishing few folkies pushing a personal agenda.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Oct 17 - 09:51 AM

There is only one person here with a "personal agenda" and that is yourself Jim.

You're stuck in a time warp set by others and you just cannot see beyond it. Not that I believe you had ever tried.

You sound just like those on the right wing of political threads here. British Generals were the best, The Conservatives have our best interests at heart, etc etc. The 1954 definition is cast in stone and no-one has come up with a better one.

The world has changed Jim. To quote Bob Dylan (who I'm sure you love!!) Your old road is rapidly agin', please get out of the new one, if you can't lend your hand...................

I've said it before your attitude is not part of the solution it's part of the problem.

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: RTim
Date: 27 Oct 17 - 09:52 AM

It strikes me as rather ironic that when I first started to sing in Folk Clubs over 40 years ago, I would get my repertoire from listening to songs from singers I knew like Dave Williams and Geoff Jerram or those recorded by other singers, eg. Harry Cox, Walter Pardon or indeed - Martin Carthy, etc.. Therefore in a way I was learning songs Orally. From the mouths of the singers?..
However, as time has gone on and I have had the wish to find and sing songs that only I sing - I have gone back to Manuscripts and found and performed songs from there. Therefore learning songs from printed material???.

Maybe I should go back to my old way of obtaining songs???

Which is right?

Tim Radford

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Oct 17 - 09:57 AM

Tim, just a thought. Do you ever get them from CD's or YouTube?

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: RTim
Date: 27 Oct 17 - 10:10 AM

Raggy - seldom - if ever these days - I might check some out to hear, but I have too many songs from my own manuscript sources to spend time on others.........

Tim

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Oct 17 - 10:13 AM

:-) sorry Tim, you will be perceived as letting the side down, getting just the odd one from records is frowned upon you know.! ;-)

You have to laugh .......... I hope !!!!!

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 27 Oct 17 - 10:18 AM

Jim I don't think you make your points very readable or accessible sometimes, and I still maintain that there are more people interested than you credit. However broadly and finally and at last we are in agreement to some extent. There are numerous Folkies diminishing or not who are delving into the collections to dig out unsung versions of songs. My main carp there is that the versions unearthed have to be as good or better than the well known ones to gain popularity, and we sometimes find not so good versions sung just because they are there. That said if there is ignorance and indifference then it's time to change the perception by getting out there and singing the songs, paid or otherwise. I am finding no lack of interest as I have said before in this thread. Getting hung up on definitions is not going to help, neither is isolating the songs in a small number of specialist clubs. There are about 400 clubs and festivals in the UK and loads of song sessions, probably more than the clubs. When I'm not on a stage you'll find me in the sing around doing what I do best. More than that none of us can do. I am looking forward to going to Bryans club next year, and running into Dave the gnome in Skipton.
If I could afford it I would have been at Lewes festival this month, but I live 300 miles away. All I am saying is let the songs do the work, and if you receive indifference or hostility look to your performance or attitude. With a little explanation and a couple of jokes you can break the ice and get them on board. Not rocket science really is it?

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Oct 17 - 10:28 AM

"You're stuck in a time warp set by others and you just cannot see beyond it. Not that I believe you had ever tried"
You are still insulting Raggy and you still fail totally to come up with an argument
"Which is right?"
Not you Tim
There is no "right" - you sing what you want the way you want, but you are borrowing songs from a tradition - you are not part of it.
WE are now passive observers of our culture - by and large we have to purchase it
I usually judge how these songs work by either comparing them to the source or examining the text to see if the rendition lives up to the function of the song
There's a debate going on on another thread about a song we recorded from a Travelling woman
WHAT WILL WE DO?
Mary was a chronic asthmatic, but she made her songs work for me every time, because she re-lived them every time she sang them
Sam Larner did this as well, so did Walter
That's what I miss from many singers today
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Oct 17 - 10:33 AM

"Getting hung up on definitions is not going to help, neither is isolating the songs in a small number of specialist clubs"
I advocate neither - my definition is for discussion - I have a repertoire of 300 plus songs folk and non folk which I enjoy singing - particularly swapping
You need a definition if you are going to write and talk about it as I do
You need a definition if you are going to set up a club and call it something - not as a fixed rule but as a rough guid as tyo what you are offering
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 Oct 17 - 10:35 AM

I quite like harry Styles latest. i can see someone singing it in a folk club.   quite catchy.

Not my cup of tea, but neither is The Bold Poachers.   my sympathy is with the rabbits, and things.

the thing about a folk club is that you sort of get a look into the soul of everyone that sings. you can sort of see where they're at as a person. Of course its lovely when someone does something you like.

but really that's not the important thing. sometimes the music is quite ghastly, but its a bit like that old hymn jesus shall where 'ere the sun....

there 's a line that goes
Let every creature rise and bring
peculiar honours to the king

And its that aspect that i like.

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Oct 17 - 10:35 AM

Bloody Hell Tim you've been thrown out of the party too. Probably because you admitted getting material from recorded sources!!

I wonder if people can take stuff from the recordings Jim has made and as it's not passed on orally the songs are then considered not to be folk songs when sung by that person.

All a bit of a minefield really.

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Vic Smith
Date: 27 Oct 17 - 10:39 AM

I know there is a club has organised a regular ballad forum* - I have the highest respect for the work and track record of Peta Webb and Ken Hall and their club, I have lots of correspondence with Annie Neilsen in Scotland - impressive work on the ballads there.

Right! Let's start with the Musical Traditions club, the one that Peta & Ken run and look at some of the guests they have booked this year:-

JOHN KIRKPATRICK - I've seen him in folk clubs twice in recent months and his repertoire was largely based on the 14 songs that are on his excellent new album Coat Tails Flying Let's look at the attribution of those tracks - 4 are labelled traditional, 6 are composed by John and the rest from other written sources - Sorry, John, not good enough! That's a cross by your name.

JIMMY CROWLEY - the mesmeric bard from Cork and a wonderful performer. I was also able to see him twice during his September tour of England. Main source of his repertoire I would say about 3/4 of his own compositions. - You give memorable performances, utterly engrossing but your repertoire just does not make the grade

WILL DUKE - Now here's a singer that lives near me me and I hear all the time. What does he sing? Music hall and variety stage. parodies...dated rural funnies... he does sing a few folk songs - another cross, yes, yes, Will does play the tunes of Scan Tester, but we actually know who wrote a lot of them, Another cross.

Who's coming up at their club?
8th Dec PETER & BARBARA SNAPE Lovely lively people to be in the company of. What does the MT website say about their repertoire? ..."from Music Hall to songs about mills and mines and union struggles plus the odd temperance hymn." - Oh, Dear!

So what about Peta and Ken themselves? Well if Simon Hindley is there they will sing a blues to his guitar accompaniment. Given a solo spot, Ken will often sing one of the hilarious songs written by Fred McCormick. Together a lot of their lovely harmony singing is taken from the "brothers" Country bands, the Louvins, Delmores, Blue Sky Boys etc. singing (ahem) written songs!

So with my apologies I have to tell the Musical Traditions Club that they have failed the JC test.

Let's hope that someone can pass on better news of Anne's venture in Glasgow, I'd like there to be one British folk club that gets it right.

* Actually there was a ballad forum in Lewes on 14th October and there is another one on 3rd December but as an authority pointed out on 26 Oct 17 - 04:06 AM "the world does not start and end in Sussex."

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: RTim
Date: 27 Oct 17 - 10:47 AM

It makes me wonder why Jim has collected and published all the songs he has found - He doesn't want anyone else to sing them........

He seems to want to sit back in his chair and pontificate and be the font of all knowledge about Folk Song - I wonder where he learnt to do that.....!!!

For pity sake Jim - give others space and time and agree that they have something to contribute.......
I have been biting my tongue - wanting to say that for days, but have not wished to say it as I know I will be accused of Name calling or Insulting. Enough!!!

Tim Radford

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Oct 17 - 10:54 AM

Give me your definition than Dave - it really is as simple as that

The people that came up with the 1954 one were far better versed in folk music than I, spent years studying it and still did not agree it unanimously. Do your really expect a folk hobbyist such as me to come up with a quick definition on an internet chat forum in a few words? Over half a century has passed since then and with the introduction of such sub-genres as folk rock, folk metal, fusion with other world music, contemporary singer songwriters, traditional music with electronic enhancements, other genres done in the English folk style and a whole range of things that I have probably not even thought of.

As Raggy said some time back, we need to use our ears and, I would add, our common sense to decide what folk music is. If a large number of people believe it is folk music and then go on to fill the clubs and buy the MP3s then we do have a popular consensus. Not academic maybe but it works. Coming back to the thread topic, those clubs that use such the populist definition thrive. Those that adhere to old worn out rules fall by the wayside.

DtG

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,The Mudcat Moaner
Date: 27 Oct 17 - 10:58 AM

Over 500 posts best yet, my work here is done

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Oct 17 - 11:04 AM

If you read the list of atendees at the conference you will see from different parts of the world where different disciplines apply.
You revival list has nothing to do with a 'tradition' they were fads appied artificially to what is basically a narrative form off singing where being able to follow the words is essentail to understanding the song - Folk Rock could not do that in a million years
he English "style is an unaccompanied one
"It makes me wonder why Jim has collected and published all the songs he has found - He doesn't want anyone else to sing them........"
That is about as insulting as anybody as said here
I want people to sing them - thats why they are on line in County Clare and why two teachers have been employed full time t get kis to sing them
Have any of you people done anything remotely like THIS or do you just sit singing to each other in your little gentlemen's private clubs
Once more - how dare you - what are you people on?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 27 Oct 17 - 11:08 AM

Congratulations, TMM!

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 Oct 17 - 11:09 AM

yes well done. I've loved chattering away on this thread. very entertaining!

And well done Jim for giving us all something to utterly reject, and yet keep bobbing back up and jabbing away with such persistence.

I'm not sure I'd be welcome in any folk club, or relevant to what was being attempted, still the meeting of minds has been fun.

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Oct 17 - 11:16 AM

"I want people to sing them - thats why they are on line in County Clare and why two teachers have been employed full time t get kis to sing them Have any of you people done anything remotely like THIS or do you just sit singing to each other in your little gentlemen's private clubs"

Firstly no one is decrying the work you have done Jim. Not a single person ............ clear.

You may have done a lot of work but you are not the only one. The numerous people you have insulted here have also done sterling work 1. Club Organisers 2. Professional Performers 3. Amateur Performers 4. Audiences 5. Everyone who has posted here.

And then you have the audacity to talk about us having a private gentlemans club.

The only "Private Gentlemans Club" I can see has only one member and he is probably sitting in Milltown Malbay as I type.

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Oct 17 - 11:16 AM

Can I just add as a response to Tim's insulting comment that, some time ago I offered two large examples of examples of what I believe the tradition is - bone of the people here have taken up that offer though several others have
Dave apparently wants me to lay out my wares as if I was selling frocks
I certainly do want people want to sing the songs - this particular bunch is so afraid of them they can't even be bothered to listen to them and what's been said about them
That's real principled debate for you!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 27 Oct 17 - 11:18 AM

Jim,
I resent your suggestion. I also went into the field collecting songs in my own native area. These are online in the British Sound Archive.
I don't have 2 teachers going into schools teaching them to kids, I do this myself.

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: RTim
Date: 27 Oct 17 - 11:19 AM

Jim - you really are insufferable.......

And I don't care that you think I am insulting you..........

Who do you really think you are?
You have done great work and been thanked for this by nearly everyone who has written on this thread....but it is still not good enough for you.

I implied several days ago that I agreed with Maude Karples and her early definition of Folk Song: "a song that during the course of time has been submitted to the process of oral transmission." Even a modern song repeated can be included within that!

If that was good enough for her and her experiences - then who am I, or indeed you - to argue otherwise. However - I know from previous experience - You Will...

So there is nothing more to say - you are obviously right.

Tim Radford (who can also be angry and upset by what someone else says....)

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Oct 17 - 11:19 AM

"Firstly no one is decrying the work you have done Jim. Not a single person ............ clear."
Patronising lip service Raggy - we did what we did to share what we got not to win compliments - clear?
Have you listened to the programmes yet - whoops - I forgot - they are not your thing, are they?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Oct 17 - 11:25 AM

Time you had a rest Jim. You're losing the plot .... again.

I was going to respond to your further insult but for now I'll hold my tongue.

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Vic Smith
Date: 27 Oct 17 - 11:34 AM

Why have we allowed one man to highjack this thread?
What sort of personality thrives on such self-absorption and verbal conflict?
Why do so many people try to reason with a person who is clearly incapable of a discussion that can move a thread or topic forward?

Can I make a suggestion? That we ignore his comments, insults, rudeness, demands for explanations and definitions and try to address the interesting question posed in the opening post and only respond accordingly. He may even get fed up and go away.

I am sure that I am not the only one that does not subscribe to the Carrollocentric Universe Theory and find the circumlocution that it entails very trying.