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What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
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Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs From: RTim Date: 26 Oct 17 - 11:32 AM Thanks Steve - and I too found it interesting that there was so little agreement and that it took so long. Personally, I am happy with Maude's early definition, and can easily accept this in all cases: "Maud Karpeles contended that the only satisfactory definition of folk song was ?a song that during the course of time has been submitted to the process of oral transmission.?" Tim Radford |
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Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs From: Steve Gardham Date: 26 Oct 17 - 11:23 AM Tim, Brilliant article. What it mainly demonstrates in relevance to this thread is that some of the greatest folklorists of the 1950s from all over the world could not really reach agreement, even after 6 years of deliberation. The problem as I see it is there is a great deal of difference as to what constitutes 'folk' in a highly developed world and what it is in a primitive society. In the Western world Karpeles 'definition', that most of them agreed on in 54, works well enough and does not set rigid boundaries, it is a set of descriptors. However in primitive societies we should not insist on the songs having to have been passed through several generations as there is absolutely no doubt that the creators are part of the folk. (But this is irrelevant to current discussion). I might comment in greater detail when I have annotated my copy of the article. |
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Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs From: TheSnail Date: 26 Oct 17 - 10:53 AM I had no assumptions of what ahhens oat your club and have vnever commented on such matters Previously - You need to know what folk song sounds like, which probably excludes you No club needs a workable definition - it needs a committee theat lives up to its promise of folk songs -- not at the exclusion of anything else but as a rule of thumb - if you are anything to go by, obviously not yours Goodbye, Jim. I don't know what you are aiming to achieve or whether you just enjoy a good rant. All you do achieve with each post is to further convince people that you are a mad old git with a massive grudge about something. ("You really are the nsty piece of work I have been warned against, aren't you". Curious. I wonder who has said that. I'll have to ask an old member of the Critics group next time we book one. The only one we have mentioned you to so far sprayed a mouthful of coffee over the breakfast table and was quite entertaining on the subject.) ((Find out how to use a spell checker and do a bit of proof reading before you send for goodness sake.)) |
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Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs From: RTim Date: 26 Oct 17 - 10:34 AM Here is something for you all to read - an article by a friend - Jin Cowdrey on "Defining Folk Music" - https://bibliolore.org/2017/10/26/defining-the-folk/ - this then has a link to his article - here - http://www.rilm.org/historiography/cowdery.pdf http://www.rilm.org/historiography/cowdery.pdf Read and conclude??? Tim Radford |
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Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs From: Raggytash Date: 26 Oct 17 - 10:29 AM I know you're knocking on a bit Jim and I wonder whether you are reading things clearly and correctly. You typed ""What concerns me is that the majority of them seem to have taken on the 'folk is what I call it' policy that proliferates here" It is only you that DEFINES folk music. No one else has, and as far as I can make out actually no one else wants to define folk music, certainly not according to a 63 year old definition that was out of date when it was written. I gone over the numerous reasons why it is no longer fit for purpose, you, as usual, have ignore them or pretended I have not supplied them. Your loss, completely. You have absolutely no idea about the folk music scene in the UK yet you continue to pontificate, yes pontificate, about it ad nauseum, castigate it, run it down, as you have done with the club organisers, performers, the audiences and all the other posters on here. Jim knows best. (excuse the french Bollocks) It would seem, according to you, that you are the only person left alive who KNOWS anything about folk music. |
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Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs From: Jim Carroll Date: 26 Oct 17 - 10:14 AM "Thanks for the heartfelt apology Jim and the grovelling admission that you were completely wrong about your assumption of what happens at the Lewes Saturday Folk Club" Is it the bracing sea air that makes you behave as you do? You really are the nsty piece of work I have been warned against, aren't you I had no assumptions of what ahhens oat your club and have vnever commented on such matters I have never been and, if your behaviour is reciprocated in others, nor would I want to. I do listen to what people say and respond to it which is more than you or others do "neither was the club that MacColl started." Who said it was Al? Don't you start I said that the early crowd who started the scene were "traddies" who used traditional song as a basis for what they did - they were not the interlopers who you suggested"grabbed the folk clubs in 1970's and 1980's" The revival The revival started dedicated to traditional song - it was your crowd who were the invaders "Barrie Roberts started his folk and skiffle club in walsall in early 1958." Which would be around the time of the Stratford concerts I know there is a great deal of dispute as to who opened the first folk club, The Topc Folk Club in Bradford seems to be the front runner in 1956, but the traditional ground had been laid before that with Ewan and Bert's ballad set for Folkways, and the WMA and H.M.V were releasing traditional stuff even earlier. Your lot were late runners. "The ONLY person here who has that policy Jim is yourself. " Will you please stop this Raggy I don't "call it" anything - folk song is far too well documented to need anybody to identify it as an individual and has been since at least the beginning of the twentieth century Please stop making things up - it only weakens your case Y choose not to recognise that is your particular choice Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs From: TheSnail Date: 26 Oct 17 - 08:46 AM Thanks for the heartfelt apology Jim and the grovelling admission that you were completely wrong about your assumption of what happens at the Lewes Saturday Folk Club and my assumed understanding of folk music. I have no doubt that there are a few clubs which adher to a proncipled policy and yours may well be one of them BREAKTHROUGH! - that is not my concern Why not? I would have thought you would have been glad of news that "proper" folk music (or something that loosely conforms or roughly resembes it) is alive and well in the UK. I'd just rather argue as an equal, if it's all the same with you. Then do so. You are constantly in attack mode and refuse to listen to what people say. O brave new world that has such people in't! |
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Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs From: Big Al Whittle Date: 26 Oct 17 - 08:42 AM Lewes my not be the centre of the universe - but then again - neither was the club that MacColl started. Barrie Roberts started his folk and skiffle club in walsall in early 1958. now THAT was the centre of the universe. the omphalos of the world . the nearby Toe of Vishnu curry house was the source of all human experience and knowledge. surprised you didn't know that.... |
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Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs From: Raggytash Date: 26 Oct 17 - 08:28 AM "What concerns me is that the majority of them seem to have taken on the 'folk is what I call it' policy that proliferates here" The ONLY person here who has that policy Jim is yourself. Not one other poster has said anything remotely akin to that. Not myself, not Dave, not Nick Dow, not Al Whittle, not the Snail, not RTim, not Vic Smith, not the Sandman or Hootenanny or any other poster. You alone state what is folk is or what isn't. |
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Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs From: Jim Carroll Date: 26 Oct 17 - 07:24 AM " BUT, he probably knows someone who was." I do indeed - Ewan and Peggy for a start I have pointed out several times that it was Lomax who took Ewan and Bert by the scruff of the neck and asked them why they weren't singing their own native songs "Have you been following my recent postings about what's going on at the Lewes Saturday Folk Club?" And as I pointed out - Sussex isn't the centre of the Universe (and then went on to comment on your previous suggestion of our all jumping on the train and going down to your club) My point remains I have no doubt that there are a few clubs which adher to a proncipled policy and yours may well be one of them - that is not my concern What concerns me is that the majority of them seem to have taken on the 'folk is what I call it' policy that proliferates here "It is one of the many places." See above At one time, we didn't have to drag out oour passports to find a folk club that went in for folk songs Some of us get quite angry with you Jim." As I know to be the case with you I try not to be gratuitously nasty, not always successfully - you have yet to adopt that approach I have no intention of getting into a pissing "he stared it sir" contest with you Bryan - I'd just rather argue as an equal, if it's all the same with you. "Come, gentlemen, we sit too long on trifles" Agreement at last My above points remain unresponded to - hopefully not forever, so "In freendship's name' perhaps we can get on with it Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs From: GUEST,ST Date: 26 Oct 17 - 07:10 AM Trapped again by a sensitive mouse pad! That was me wot just posted. Since I'm back I'll add that, in his latest EFDSS ?Classic Folk? programme , Mike Norris says he's concentrating on tracks from the "folk revival". As our memories fail us and we need spectacles these days (which tend to be rose coloured when it comes to looking behind us) it might be useful to take the opportunity to listen to what we used to be listening to in those halcyon days. In any case - I thought it was a great programme. |
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Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs From: GUEST Date: 26 Oct 17 - 07:06 AM I was about to construct a post illustrated by a variety of quotes but find Dave the Gnome :Date: 25 Oct 17 - 12:57 PM sums it up. "I came to the conclusion a few posts back that we seem to be speaking a different language." One side here is using one definition and the other (rather more numerically supported?) is using another definition. Nick Dow 25 Oct 17 - 07:02 PM has summed this up perfectly. In case there are others who are swamped by the volume of comments here I'll add to it by repeating just the first part of what he wrote. (At least you won't then need to go searching for it.) "1. There is an academic definition of Folk Song. (Not going any further on that.) 2. There is an informal definition of Folk Song, subscribed to by most Folk Clubs and the general public." (Jim Carroll Date: 25 Oct 17 - 11:22 AM "I am saying there is a consensus among academics and researchers": Jim Carroll Date: 25 Oct 17 - 02:06 PM ?"As a researcher, I need to be accurate in what I talk and write about if I am going to make sense of what we have done since 1973 and pass it on. That is wheer a definition comes in." Nick Dow Date: 25 Oct 17 - 12:05 PM "The word Folk means one thing to academics and another to the general public.") Just to anticipate this point; Jim Carroll Date: 25 Oct 17 - 12:41 PM "You can't "like" or "vote" a definition into existence - a thing is what it is and a definition defines and articulates what it is", it's worth considering how dictionary definitions are arrived at. "When modern lexicographers define words or find words to add to dictionaries, they tend to approach their work from the angle of descriptivism. That is, they observe how the language is being used, and then write definitions based on that research." Thus, while there may be an "academic" definition which may remain constant once agreed upon by the academics, the dictionary definition, based on common usage, may be different to this. Most here seem to be using the "common usage definition" and suggesting that the academic definition is not relevant to what is happening in folk clubs. I rather like the academic definition and is the one I tend to use, using the terms contemporary (see Nick Dow 25 Oct 17 - 07:02 PM again) or acoustic to describe material or clubs that don't match the academic one - but I don't really expect others to do the same. As to whether the definition question has anything to do with what's happening to our folk clubs: if any decline in attendance was directly related to people being confused when the clubs fail to live up to their definition, would that depend upon how widely the definition was known and used? If few people use the academic definition then few would turn up at these "non-folk clubs" and be disappointed since they wouldn't be expecting "academic definition folk". If everyone was using the "academic folk song" definition then it could well be that they stopped going when they found the clubs were not giving what they went there expecting. |
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Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs From: Dave the Gnome Date: 26 Oct 17 - 06:39 AM Sitting on trifles could get messy. DtG |
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Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs From: TheSnail Date: 26 Oct 17 - 05:57 AM Is there any point? No, but what the hell. "Have you been following my recent postings about what's going on at the Lewes Saturday Folk Club?" I saw it and consider it irrelevant Bryan - the world does not start and end in Sussex You had previously said - No club needs a workable definition - it needs a committee theat lives up to its promise of folk songs -- not at the exclusion of anything else but as a rule of thumb - if you are anything to go by, obviously not yours To which I replied - Have you been following my recent postings about what's going on at the Lewes Saturday Folk Club? What is there that you consider inappropriate for a folk club? In a couple of weeks we've got Niamh Parsons & Graham Dunne. If they're good enough for the Frank Harte Festival, they are good enough for us. A little later we've got Brian Peters who will be doing us a melodeon workshop and a ballad forum as well as his evening performance. Not folky enough for you? You replied that you didn't know Graham Dunne but did know Niamh which doesn't really answer the question. I'l try again. The list of recent and coming performers I gave was - Jackie Oates and Tristan Seume The Askew Sisters The Dovetail Trio Niamh Parsons & Graham Dunne Brian Peters We also have Jody Kruskal and we are having a carol concert of traditional Sussex Carols supplemented by tunes from Sussex village band manuscripts. This is reviving an idea started by Vic Gammon some decades ago. We are taking it around a number of other venues as we have for a few years now. You have directly attacked our club as being part of the problem. Which of the above do you feel constitute "the crap some of you appear to have replaced folk song with."? You once suggested that if we wanted to hear good folk song we should come to your club It is one of the many places. the world does not start and end in Sussex No it doesn't. These performers get quite a lot of bookings as Dave Sutherland has pointed out. Some of them (whisper it not) make a decent living at it. You would have us believe they don't exist. My unpleasant comments were made in anger Some of us get quite angry with you Jim. Previously you said "You need to know what folk song sounds like, which probably excludes you". Perhaps you would like to have a look down this webpage, Jim, and then have a browse round the rest of the site and then stop patronising me about what constitutes folk song. Sussex Traditions If we're into Shakespearian quotes, how about - Come, gentlemen, we sit too long on trifles |
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Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs From: GUEST,Hootenanny Date: 26 Oct 17 - 05:49 AM If I remember correctly when Lomax (only one of them I believe) was involved at the Theatre Royal one of the "Traddies" was Rambling Jack Elliott who often shortly after would appear at the Ballads & Blues Club singing an obscure traditional number "I Belong to Glasgow". It was also around this time that Ewan and Peggy sung in a skiffle group singing such well known old folk songs as "Hard Case" and "Dirty Old Town" using the traditional line up of 5 string banjo,two guitars Clarinet, Double Bass plus two girl singers. I realise that this precedes by a few years Jim Carroll's interest in folk music so he couldn't be there to know BUT, he probably knows someone who was. |
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Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs From: Dave the Gnome Date: 26 Oct 17 - 05:37 AM Guest 26 Oct 17 - 03:43 AM Gee Dave , you were always supportive of Jim,s nastiness below the line. I have never been supportive of any nastiness anywhere and challenge you to prove that assertion. I know you cannot. Teribus, this may come as shock too but I agree with you! If that were allowed to happen it would be a tragedy. But, as far as I can see and as far as the posts on here confirm from other folk clubs around the country, it is not happening and does not look likely to do so. DtG |
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Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs From: Jim Carroll Date: 26 Oct 17 - 04:28 AM "As big a relief to Jim as it is to me." Truly sorry to see you go Nick Sorry - some questions merit more than a yes/no answer Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs From: The Sandman Date: 26 Oct 17 - 04:24 AM "I learned Cousin Jack from another local and by the folk process by the time I got round to hearing the Show Of Hands original the tune I was playing was quite different apart from the chorus. I prefer and stick to the tune I was doing." well done. |
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Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs From: GUEST,Nick Dow Date: 26 Oct 17 - 04:23 AM Ask for a yes or no answer and you get no comment. Sorry can't be bothered any more. As big a relief to Jim as it is to me. |
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Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs From: Jim Carroll Date: 26 Oct 17 - 04:15 AM "When the traddies grabbed the folk clubs in 1970's and 1980's, " The Traddiress didn't "grab the clubs" Al - Lomax, MacColl and Lomax started them in the 1950s Probably the first folk concert ever held in Britain was at The THeatre Royal, Stratford, East London around that time The theatre Royal was the venus or MacColl and Joan Littlewood's 'Theatre Workshop' The Traddies were on the club scene first - the rest of you became hangers on later Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs From: Jim Carroll Date: 26 Oct 17 - 04:06 AM "Have you been following my recent postings about what's going on at the Lewes Saturday Folk Club?" I saw it and consider it irrelevant Bryan - the world does not start and end in Sussex You once suggested that if we wanted to hear good folk song we should come to your club, even more impractical than the philosophy adopted in Britain that if we want good theatres and museums we can always go to London - at least those in Newcastle can do that on one train. It was a crass suggestion when you first made it and it remains just as crass Of course you can't book MacColl, Bogle and Pickford, but those of you with any nouse can learn by example, by listening to what they said and did instead of relying on the crap some of you appear to have replaced folk song with. MacColl died nearly thirty years ago yet he is still dug up regularly to be given a ritual kicking A serious discussion on his contribution and ideas has always been a no-go area on forums such as this, almost as taboo as a serious discussion on folk song Of all the pioneers, MacColl was the most successful in using traditional song to deal with contemporary subjects and create new songs using contemporary forms. His, Seeger's and Parker's groundbreaking Radio Ballads stand unchallenged, as social history documents, as introducing the working man and woman's voice to the nation, as a serious commentary on working lives, and as a possible future use for our song traditions They stand as monuments to some of our finest singers - Sam Larner being the foremost. "Jim has rather excelled himself with -" My unpleasant comments were made in anger, your ongoing nastiness seems a built in part of your character - you seem incapable of addressing any comment I make, reasonably or otherwise, without snide and abuse - that has been your attitude of several years, yet, as now, you are up on your chair screaming "insult" when your own behaviour is thrown back at you. I sincerely apologise for sinking to your level - it's one of my weaknesses. Back to the argument (nope - I haven't given up yet and don't intend to). There are never winners and losers in these arguments - that's not the point of them anyway, though a number of cocks here have climbed onto their dunghills and crowed that I have lost and they have won. I set out to find if my suspicions on what has happened on the folk scene was accurate - sadly I got my answer in spades. The revival I was part of was an attempt to escape from the crap of yesterday's pop scene and create a situation where those of us who had no interest in seeking fame and fortune could make our own music Now we have a club scene that is being used by people who regard it as a pathway to the bright lights and who judge their sucess in how many albums they sell and how many bookings they get rather than presenting a recognisable form of folk song There's actually a thread going at present discussing what rates should be charged at gigs. By adopting the "anything I say is folk music, is folk music" attitude, which seems to be the only definition anybody has come up with so far, the door has been opened wide to the PRS and IMRO jackals that take out money and give it to the superstars first leaving the folkies with only the small change - our folk music has been handed over to the predatory music industry on a platter. Many of our traditional songs have been "arranged" and copyrighted One of the great finds over the last forty odd years was from impoverished Traveller John Reilly with his 'Well Below the Valley" John died of malnutrition after being found in e derelict house, his song was arranged and copyrighted by a well heeled musician and entrepreneur. At one time our folk scene was based on real folk music; seek out the Topic/Caedmon Folk Songs of Britain series, or the magnificent Tangent School of Scottish Studies series, or Mike Yates's beautiful examples of the remainder of our song Traditions, or more recently, the wonderful 'Voice of the People' series' again by Topic. If you have any doubt as to what constitute folk song - you'll find your answer there. Our revival was floated on the mopping-up campaign embarked on by the Beeb in the 1950s, despite the dishonest misuse and of that collection, it gave us our raw material and inspired us to seek out our own native traditions. In today's revival you can't give it away, as has been proved by the somewhat cowardly response to my offer One of the series I put up for grabs is the finest analysis of British Folk song ever made - our folk song repertoire was summed up beautifully by the presenter; "Well, there they are, the songs of our people. Some of them have been centuries in the making, some of them undoubtedly were born on the broadside presses. Some have the marvellous perfection of stones shaped by the sea's movement. Others are as brash as a cup-final crowd. They were made by professional bards and by unknown poets at the plough-stilts and the handloom. They are tender, harsh,, passionate, ironical, simple, profound.... as varied, indeed, as the landscape of this island. We are indebted to the Harry Coxes and Phil Tanners, to Colm Keane and Maggie MaccDonagh, to Belle Stewart and Jessie Murray and to all the sweet and raucous unknown singers who have helped to carry our people's songs across the centuries." That's my definition of folk song - I still have to be given another - certainly not by anybody here. Vic Smith, who I once respected as an advocate for folk song proper, accuses me of ignoring the arguments here There have been no arguments - plenty of abuse, plenty of denials, but the only thing that has come out of it is "we have your clubs and we'll use them for whatever music we choose" He quotes Shakespeare to claim I am ignoring what has been said When I ask him to tell me what I have ignored, his non-response brings to mind something else Shakespeare wrote "And the rest is silence" Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs From: Teribus Date: 26 Oct 17 - 03:59 AM Now this may come as a shock: I have sympathy and an understanding of the message that Jim Carroll has tried to put across. This by him I know definitely rings a bell and strikes home: "A definition would do, failing that, a reason why folk clubs should be allowed to be swamped until it becomes uncomfortable to sing folk songs in them" Experienced that feeling many times, and Jim is right IF that prevails then you kill off the traditional side and are left with something that you could only honestly describe as being "attempts at pop that didn't quite make it". |
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Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs From: Dave Sutherland Date: 26 Oct 17 - 03:48 AM Just like to add that we have Niamh Parsons and Graham Dunne at our place the night after they have been at Bryan's club; and Brian Peters next February www.tigerfolk.com |
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Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs From: GUEST Date: 26 Oct 17 - 03:43 AM Gee Dave , you were always supportive of Jim,s nastiness below the line. What has changed. Guess he insulted you, did he? In any case, reason, facts or civil debate will not change Mr. Carroll,s mind, He is right and we all wrong,! |
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Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs From: Dave the Gnome Date: 26 Oct 17 - 03:33 AM If you believe you have not insulted anyone, Jim, then the list of so called insults you provide from me are not insults either. Sorry, but you cannot have one rule for yourself and one for everyone else. You say you were merely reacting honestly. So was I. I did start to go through what I considered to insults by you and lost the will to live when I got to number 20. So let us put that behind us and go to your challenge. How difficult would it have been to take my offer and listen to the examples? That, as far as I am concerned indicates how much confidence you have in your own arguments That - my friends, proves beyond any doubt, how highly you regard folk music I already have. You sent me a many hours of radio programs some years back and I listened with interest. Some I enjoyed, some I didn't. I am sure that these will be no different but I am happy to give them a try. Again. But let me challenge you in return. Tell me how it is going to tell us what is happening to our folk clubs? Will they introduce me to anything I do not already know? List the artists on them for us to see if they give us anything we do not already know. Bear in mind that although I do not have your age and experience I have already seen, live, multiple, traditional artists who are or were considered by everyone to be at the top of there game. Including may I add, Nick Dow, (Like the advert Nick? :-) ) Fred Jordan and The Watersons to name but three. But we are talking tastes here and, as the phrase goes, there is no accounting for that. Post a playlist for your radio programmes and we can let you know if we are already aware of what is on there and tell us how it helps your case that folk clubs are now crap. DtG |
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Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs From: Allan Conn Date: 26 Oct 17 - 03:11 AM Good post Big Al but some of this thread just leaves me glad that I like music in general and don't get too hung up over genres. We normally get a maximum of three songs, often two, at our normal floor spot evenings and though it can change dependent on the night and audience I normally have a trad song, one of my own, and a more modern folk or popular song in mind. People as a whole seem to like the variety. In regard to performers surely each generation in folk music since the revival has had its more traditional performers as well as those who'll push the boundaries of what folk is and what can be done with folk songs? Both Sheila Stewart and Hamish Henderson seemed to embrace Martyn Bennett's musical experiments - but that doesn't mean they'd turn their backs on the traditional. They were open enough to see his mixing of genres in some ways helped introduce the songs to a new audience. Likewise there is always going to be crossover and people sharing and discovering music. I love June Tabor's version of Joy Division's "Love Will Tear Us Apart". There will be Joy Division fans who discover June's other music and folk music in general through that - and folk fans who perhaps listen to some more Joy Division through that. It is great to discover music. And tying in with the other thread in regard to the Oral Tradition. Does it really matter how we learn the songs now? As long as we learn them! Three regulars I do are John Riley, North Country Maid and Cousin Jack. I have since discovered it has been recorded by others but I was introduced to John Riley by hearing Tom Bliss play it at a gig at our club. I took North Country Maid from a Youtube clip of The Watersons. I learned Cousin Jack from another local and by the folk process by the time I got round to hearing the Show Of Hands original the tune I was playing was quite different apart from the chorus. I prefer and stick to the tune I was doing. As long as I do these to the best of my limited abilities does it matter where I got them from? |
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Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs From: Big Al Whittle Date: 25 Oct 17 - 10:31 PM i listen to what all of you say and i can see that all of you care about something or other. but what's more important; human beings or some idea of folk music? When the traddies grabbed the folk clubs in 1970's and 1980's, I felt a bit like Emperor Hirohito, the situation has turned out not necessarily to my advantage. the folk music that i loved was bob dylan, pete seeger, dave van ronk, etc. however i got the point. you guys needed the feeling that singing about jolly sailors, hunting the fox, and communing with silkie and the Steele Span songbook gave you. it made you feel superior to the bay city rollers fans, in the same way that dylan had made me feel there was more to life than craig douglas and ronnie carrol. the point is that folk clubs serve a need . they are called folk clubs rather than folk music clubs. folk are important. more important than any mere idea, or what you personally want. it stopped doing what i wanted. it stopped doing what Jim wanted. It doesn't mean its valueless. Times passes on, and the leaves that are green turn to brown. |
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Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs From: TheSnail Date: 25 Oct 17 - 07:50 PM I agree with Vic. Let's not descend to Jim's standard. I think Raggytash's last post was spot on except the last two lines. Jim has rather excelled himself with - You need to know what folk song sounds like, which probably excludes you Such a decision requires an understanding of and commitment to folk song If MacColl, Rossleson, Pickford, Bogle, Jack Warshaw et al can work it out I'm sure you can find someone to work it out for you Bryan The rest is just typical nastiness Niamh Parsons & Graham Dunne. Not heard Graham Dunne by I know Niamh and I know her to be an excellent singer Really?! We only booked them because we thought they were Britain's Got Talent winners. We can't book MacColl 'cos he's dead. I don't think Eric Bogle is touring anymore and Ed Pickford and Jack Warshaw don't seem to have come our way. Being a folk club booking secretary is more a matter of selecting rather than seeking. I asked Jim "Have you been following my recent postings about what's going on at the Lewes Saturday Folk Club?". Clearly,his answer was "No and I have no intention of doing so.". Don't let the facts get in the way of an entrenched position. |
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Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs From: RTim Date: 25 Oct 17 - 07:32 PM Can I have the last word....................I bet I can't. Tim Radford |
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Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs From: Jim Carroll Date: 25 Oct 17 - 07:11 PM Simple question to you all How difficult would it have been to take my offer and listen to the examples? That, as far as I am concerned indicates how much confidence you have in your own arguments That - my friends, proves beyond any doubt, how highly you regard folk music And you accuse me of having a closed mind Sure I have!! Sleep tight What reason Vic - wheer is teh arument I asked you to provide Anybody can point to something that is not there Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs From: GUEST,Nick Dow Date: 25 Oct 17 - 07:02 PM I have not got a clue why because I think I am wasting my time, but I am going to have one last go at trying to make some simple points as easy to understand as possible. 1. There is an academic definition of Folk Song. (Not going any further on that.) 2. There is an informal definition of Folk Song, subscribed to by most Folk Clubs and the general public. 3. There is an informal subdivision. Traditional or Contemporary. Most clubs welcome both. 4. Jim feels that the word Folk should not be used informally. 5. Jim feels that the Contemporary has swamped the Traditional, and is sad and angered by this perception. 6. The majority of the contributors to this thread believe that the situation is really not as bad as that. 7. Jim simply does not believe it and point blank refuses to accept our word for it. So I will put myself forward as a target for Jim and say that after an average of 45 Gigs a year in Folk clubs and Festivals for donkeys years travelling from the top to the bottom of the UK, singing almost exclusively traditional songs, I can honestly say I have found a constant respect, support, and interest not only in me, but my contemporaries and Traditional Music generally. I have already said this in a previous post. Right! Either I am telling the truth or I am lying through my teeth mistaken and deluded. Quite honestly Jim if you opt for the latter and just dismiss forty years of experience as you did with my last post I am afraid I can't be bothered with your opinions from now on which saddens me. I and many others who post here have travelled the clubs and festivals recently Jim, you have not, and there is the rub. Forget the abuse, all anybody is suggesting is that you might not be entirely correct in your conclusions. Stranger things have happened you know. Please if you wish to reply, do me and this thread the courtesy of commenting on the post as a whole , please don't pick out one sentence and go off on one as you have done above. I am either right or wrong-end of... |
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Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs From: Vic Smith Date: 25 Oct 17 - 06:41 PM Jim Carroll - the lack of arguments here change my opinion one iota AS far as I am concerned folk music is what it is documented to be Julius Caesar - I am constant as the Northern Star The most common interpretation of Shakespeare's portayal of Caesar is that men who are incapable of listening to reason, who are incapable of modifying opinion in the face of facts are dangerous. Of course, Will was talking about the Roman Empire's equivalent of Hitler (killed millions). Stalin (killed millions ) and Trump (working on it). By 'dangerous' the bard was talking about the inability to bend in those who wield political power. The inability to bend amongst those who have done great work in collecting the folk traditions of - and advocating the human rights of - Irish travellers..... well, those sort of people are much more harmless. |
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Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs From: Jim Carroll Date: 25 Oct 17 - 05:55 PM "We all hear what you are saying - BUT we don't all agree with you!"then why not put uop an argument Tim A definition would do, failing that, a reason why folk clubs should be allowed to be swamped until it becomes uncomfortable to sing folk songs in them Simples "so don't let it bother you in the way it seems to" We are part of setting them up for the enjoyment of folk songs - Lloyd, MacColl, Seeger McCulloch and Campbell, The Campbell Folk Group The early guests wer Harry Cox, Sam Larner, Jeannie Robertson - all Folksingers "I could of course ask for evidence of my insulting you Jim but I know you will not come up with any." "No point in continuing the discussion with Jim, Raggy. I came to the conclusion a few posts back that we seem to be speaking a different language. " "No point in continuing, Jim. You have proven everything that I have said over and over again. Everyone but you can see it. It is impossible to have a sensible conversation with you any more so I will no longer attempt it. Sad to see you go down this route but it is your own choice." " I can guarantee that your next step will be to say that no-one has taken you up on it so you have won. Keith has taught you well. " "My post means that they both bluster, insult, bully, hear no voice but their own and denigrate those who disagree with them, Guest. Whether one gives facts or not does not detract from that. The two traits are not mutually exclusive." "You really have lost it, Jim. Sorry. I have tried and tried to be reasonable but when it is met with hostility, invective and sheer bloody mindedness I will eventually react. You have become Teribus." Want any more Dave? "I am more than happy to take Tim's advice and agree to disagree. Will you do the same?" Of course I will Dave - why wouldn't I? That does not stop me from expressing my opinion on the clubs though, nor does the lack of arguments here change my opinion one iota AS far as I am concerned folk music is what it is documented to be If I din't understand that I have several centuries wiotrth of documentation to back me up - The track record of those who set up the scene would be good enough for me if I hadn't spent most of my life listening to it I only need Walter Pardon's word to convice me - or the singing of the Travellers, or Tom Lenihan or any of the singers on our website or The Stewarts...... Whose word would I take - theirs or someone who can't tell the difference between Tifty's Annie and I Don't Like Mondays Tough one that!! Your dedication to folk song is clear from the scramble to take up my offer of two of the best series on folk song ever made! Of course, I fully realise that if you had taken them you would have had to tear them to shreds in order to prove your point Ah well - you win some, you lose some " exactly the same way below the line but you all cheer him on there and say what a fine fellow he is." And you7 spend you time attacking homosexuals praising fascists and demanding refugees be forced to wear yellow stars like Donald Trump below the line Folk song - an undefinable musical form - new one on me lads Wonder why I wasted my life G'NIGHT ALL Jim Carroll By the way Vic - there is no argument here - if there is, show me where it is |
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Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs From: Dave the Gnome Date: 25 Oct 17 - 05:11 PM I have already said, Vic, withdrawal seems to be the only option at this juncture. Sad really because it had been going so well. I think now that it has attracted the attentions of a certain well known shit stirrer and jeerer from the sidelines this thread has had it's day. Still, some good did come out of it and it was very enjoyable for a while. DtG |
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Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs From: Raggytash Date: 25 Oct 17 - 05:08 PM Yes Vic, I understand where you are coming from. My apologies to everyone else, except perhaps Akenaton who I perceive is trying to stir things. I could go further but perchance I have said enough tonight. |
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Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs From: Vic Smith Date: 25 Oct 17 - 04:57 PM Has it occurred to Raggytash that after producing reasoned, detailed and valid descriptions of his protagonist's distain for other posters that this has been spoiled by his last sentence. You will never be able to to reason with him; that is beyond the power of mortals. Discussion - the acceptance of reasoned arguments and modifying a point of view - is beyond him. He is to Mudcat what Julius Caesar is to Shakespeare - I could be well moved if I were as you. To insult him is to descend to his low level. To insult him is also to confirm his view that the whole world hates and misundertands him. To insult him feeds into his persecution complex. |
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Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs From: akenaton Date: 25 Oct 17 - 04:37 PM Jim is Jim, he behaves in exactly the same way below the line but you all cheer him on there and say what a fine fellow he is. Arse Lickers. |
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Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs From: Raggytash Date: 25 Oct 17 - 03:45 PM Get something clear in your head Jim, I do not need anyone to persuade me to "have a go" I am quite clear that you and your approach to folk music are narrow, turgid, bombastic. You cannot even agree with yourself, for example in your post of 1. "roughly resembes folk song" 2. "no rigid rule book" 3. "as I said, no rule book" 4. "your minds are tighter closed than ducks arses" You ask people to look in a mirror. You have denigrated nearly every poster on this thread, you have denigrated almost every folk club and folk club organiser in the UK, of which you have no knowledge. You have denigrated everyone who doesn't fit into your narrow, turgid and bombastic version of folk music. I know you have done valuable work in collecting folk music and folk lore. That does NOT give you a right to talk down to people. I reaaly didn't intend to fall out with anyone on this thread but I will go further. You are so far up your own arse you could clean your teeth from the inside. |
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Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs From: Dave the Gnome Date: 25 Oct 17 - 03:44 PM You have done nothing but insult me personally as you are doing here and insulting my intelligence by suggesting you are putting forward evidence when all you are doing is saying what you like I could of course ask for evidence of my insulting you Jim but I know you will not come up with any. I could, as you often do elsewhere, come up with a list of insults and invective as long as your arm that you have delivered on this thread alone. I could also ask where anyone suggested I was putting forward any evidence. I have never done so. All I have offered are my honest opinions. But you in answer to any of that you will simply rant and rave in what seems to me, and others as we have seen, in a very confusing manner. Hence my point that there is no mileage in taking this any further. I am more than happy to take Tim's advice and agree to disagree. Will you do the same? DtG |
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Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs From: Big Al Whittle Date: 25 Oct 17 - 03:44 PM 'if the club scene is populated by people like you we may as well all pack it in and wait for the next Beyonce hit' absolutely - put a ring on it! |
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Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs From: RTim Date: 25 Oct 17 - 03:22 PM Jim - I no longer know what to say to you............and I think others are of the same opinion. In your last note you insult someone who makes a perfectly valid point ....do you check what you write afterwards? You certainly don't correct your typing or spelling - but I assume you will think I am insulting you if I say that..... We all hear what you are saying - BUT we don't all agree with you! You have already decided - sometime ago - not to go to clubs....so don't let it bother you in the way it seems to. It isn't your problem anymore. Don't get so bent out of shape with an argument that cannot be won. We had a procedure when I was a Union Shop Steward at my old factory job - Lets Agree to Disagree - or enter a Failure to Agree notice. I hope you enjoy your continuing part in "Live Music"......I and others will continue to be involved and enjoy our own........ Keep Music Live and Alive! Tim Radford |
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Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs From: Jim Carroll Date: 25 Oct 17 - 03:04 PM "If you think it sounds like folk, you can put it on.If you think it sounds like folk, you can put it on." So? You need to know what folk song sounds like, which probably excludes you Such a decision requires an understanding of and commitment to folk song If MacColl, Rossleson, Pickford, Bogle, Jack Warshaw et al can work it out I'm sure you can find someone to work it out for you Bryan Niamh Parsons & Graham Dunne. Not heard Graham Dunne by I know Niamh and I know her to be an excellent singer Enjoy The rest is just typical nastiness JIm Carroll |
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Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs From: TheSnail Date: 25 Oct 17 - 02:53 PM No club needs a workable definition - it needs a committee theat lives up to its promise of folk songs -- not at the exclusion of anything else but as a rule of thumb Well there you are peeps. You have it from the man himself. It's entirely up to you. If you think it sounds like folk, you can put it on. - if you are anything to go by, obviously not yours Have you been following my recent postings about what's going on at the Lewes Saturday Folk Club? What is there that you consider inappropriate for a folk club? In a couple of weeks we've got Niamh Parsons & Graham Dunne. If they're good enough for the Frank Harte Festival, they are good enough for us. A little later we've got Brian Peters who will be doing us a melodeon workshop and a ballad forum as well as his evening performance. Not folky enough for you? Some gems from the latest post - If you are a folk singer, yo need to sing something that roughly resembes folk song if you are going to honourt what you call yourself - no rigid rule book "roughly resembes"! If you sing a song that you think will fit into an evening of folk songs nobody is stopping you - as I said, no rule book "that YOU think"! |
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Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs From: Jim Carroll Date: 25 Oct 17 - 02:06 PM "Earlier you seemed to say Folk Clubs should only contain folk songs" Nope - how may times have I mentioned MacColl as having written more new songs? What seens to be the confusion here id tha fact thai I do both - I sing and I research - on one I am happy to sing and listen to folk songs proper and new songs based on folk styles - IN A FOLK CLUB Elsewhere, my tastes cover as wide a range of music and song as anybody here I look on new songs as a possibility of kick-starting a song-making tradition again - not in the miniscule and incestuous world of folk cluns where nowadays everybody knows one another, but in the wider community I live in a town where in the first half of the twentieth century communities were generating their own traditions and producing songs that were being absorbed into everyday life (largely anonymously) As a researcher, I need to be accurate in what I talk and write about if I am going to make sense of what we have done since 1973 and pass it on. That is wheer a definition comes in. If you are a folk singer, yo need to sing something that roughly resembes folk song if you are going to honourt what you call yourself - no rigid rule book If your punters are paying at the door to come in, you are conning them if you don't You are damaging folk song in the process - not one of you have had the decency to deny or defend that fact "Only Professionals or Semi-Pros get to sing in Concerts " Utter nonsense The country is fiull of amature operatic societies or choirs - South Wales miners are famed for them If you sing a song that you think will fit into an evening of folk songs nobody is stopping you - as I said, no rule book If on the other hand you just use a folk club to perform anything you choose you are just using that club without concern for either folk song or audience who have turned up to hear a certain type of song - the type you advertise If your club adopts an anything goes policy it has simply sold out and it using a meaningless title "No point in continuing the discussion with Jim" You have done nothing but insult me personally as you are doing here and insulting my intelligence by suggesting you are putting forward evidence when all you are doing is saying what you like If yo have a dn alternative definition - give it If you are happy with a situation where the term "folk song" is meaningless say so If you think I'm wrong, prove I am with intelligent arguments But please do not slander and denigrate my arguments with none of these things You offer nothing other than insults - I really did believe you were better than that If the club scene is populated by people like you we may as well all pack it in and wait for the next Beyonce hit The flk scene was created to allow us to escape from the arrogant oppression of the pop conveyor belt - people with your attitude place us right back on the assembly line Stop being so ****** insulting - you have my arguments if you don't want to respond to them, stop tring to persuade others formn having a go - that is exactly what you are doing "No point in continuing the discussion with Jim, Raggy." Where have you responded honestly to a single thing about folk song - that goes for most of you? till no more takers on my offer - your minds are tighter closed than ducks arses - and you call me intransigent!!!! Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs From: RTim Date: 25 Oct 17 - 01:10 PM Jim - You throw so much ink at the paper (or screen in this case) that I can't always follow your point - this plus you mix in other peoples words - again I can't always follow your point......In fact, with your last few posts - I no longer know what your point is........... Earlier you seemed to say Folk Clubs should only contain folk songs...and yes, you try in your words to define what that is.......but not everyone agrees with you - and you don't like it. So you have had our say, and you are persuading very few...why continue? You now say that new songs in the Folk Idiom (my words not yours) are OK - but not all of them - only the ones deemed by you to be appropriate - that is not fair, particularly if you no longer go to the clubs you are being critical of. I have always been (for over 40 years) a singer of songs - If I like a song and I think it will somehow fit - then I sing it - and that is the way it should be, and in my view - it has always been. Folk Clubs - Song Cubs - Music Clubs - what ever you call them are the only opportunity to do this. Only Professionals or Semi-Pros get to sing in Concerts or Festivals....Just let the other venues be......... Tim Radford (who has experience on both sides of The Atlantic) |
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Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs From: Dave the Gnome Date: 25 Oct 17 - 12:57 PM No point in continuing the discussion with Jim, Raggy. I came to the conclusion a few posts back that we seem to be speaking a different language. I know what I mean. I know what you mean. You know what I mean. Jim knows what he means but I don't think either you or I ever will. You go and play some music, which everyone in the world bar one knows is folk. I will go and play my accordion tonight and toddle off to Malham with the grandkids tomorrow. Jim can do whatever it is he does and we will all be happy. No point in continuing the discussion. DtG |
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Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs From: Jim Carroll Date: 25 Oct 17 - 12:41 PM "So are you now saying that you cannot have contemporary songs (such as Maccoll's songs) in a folk club?" No I am not and you know that Bryan I have said over and over again that unless the fol scene can produce material based on folk styles it will be little more than a museum I'm not even saying that clubs shouldn't include other forms - occasionally = plenty of music hall songs in the clubs I used to go to I have never advocated absolutes We are talking about folk music being edged ot MacColl wrote more songs than any other performer on the scene - according to Peggy, his posthumous collection included about half of his repertoire No club needs a workable definition - it needs a committee theat lives up to its promise of folk songs -- not at the exclusion of anything else but as a rule of thumb - if you are anything to go by, obviously not yours "I clearly said YOUR approach to the music was turgid, narrow and bombastic." No it isn't - I am a singer and resear cher - I ing both traditional and contemporary songs, the latter based on the first Unless you regard traditional songs as turgid - my approach is not turgid. As a researcher, I write and talk about traditional songs - if I compare them to others I define the two as being different You are suggesting that that is "turgiud" Would you expect a lecturer on operas to get up and talk about Mick Jagger - then why expect me to get p and talk about Bob Geldof because that's what goes on in folk clubs This is the stupidity of your argument You obviuouslky don't give a toss for the importance of folk song, I don't get the imprssion that you even like it You ahve shown no interest in taking up my offer (a couple of people have), so I assume you don't intend to try to understand what I am talking about - and you dessscribe me as "rigid" Go look in a ****** mirror if you want to se rigid "Pity we can't put it to a vote, I think you would surprised." Put it to a vote where The vast majority of people in Britain wouldn't no what you were talking about Your miniscule club members don't even have a consensus among themselves - some complain about the lack of opportunity to sing traditional songs, some look on clubs as a social gathering, some make a career out of them and the rest of you can't scratch up a decent definition between you You are actulally a minority of a minority At least I have the literature and a mass of recordings put together over the last half centurr to back up what I claim You have nothing You can't "like" or "vote" a definition into existence - a thing is what it is and a definition defines and articulates what it is You have reduced this to likes and dislikes - would you do that about any other art form Is classical music not classical music because not enough people like it Utterly insane Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs From: TheSnail Date: 25 Oct 17 - 12:37 PM Just to continue the self promotion, last week we had The Askew Sisters. We more than sold out. The week before that Jackie Oates and Tristan Seume. Also a sell out as part of our little folk festival with comcerts by The Young Coppers (sell out) and Shirley Collins & Ian Kearey (sell out). |
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Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs From: GUEST,Nick Dow Date: 25 Oct 17 - 12:05 PM So all you are saying is when you go to a Folk Club you expect to hear Folk Music. No problem with that in principle. In my experience it has not a lot to do with the real world where the songs were sung before the revival got hold of them. I can't get that worked up about what people sing in Folk Clubs. I am quite happy to hear a song by KT Tunstall at Skipton Folk club on Monday last and get up and sing 'The Foggy Dew' after it. Nobody else seemed bothered either and they enjoyed both equally. Trish Nolan sings plenty of modern songs plus her uncles 'Well below the Valley' and the rest of his repertoire (I think). I just don't have a problem with it, and I am having a great time everywhere I go. The word Folk means one thing to academics and another to the general public. Who cares? That does not somehow mean I am insincere or demeaning the song tradition, it means that I have total faith in the survival of any tradition be it song or craft in a changing world. That's more or less what Bert said all those years ago. (Grovelling apologies if you don't know Trish Nolan as Jim and I do. She is John Reilly's niece. He sang 'The well below the Valley and 'Tipping it up to Nancy'-go on have a listen on YouTube it's worth it!) |
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Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs From: TheSnail Date: 25 Oct 17 - 11:58 AM "That does not mean that it cannot exist happily alongside other forms of music." Of course it can Nick, but not in a folk club - why not run music clubs or song clubs - I've enjoyed plenty of those So are you now saying that you cannot have contemporary songs (such as Maccoll's songs) in a folk club? If you can, what is your "workable definition" of what is allowed? |
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