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What is Happening to our Folk Clubs

The Sandman 25 Nov 17 - 01:19 PM
Dave the Gnome 25 Nov 17 - 01:18 PM
The Sandman 25 Nov 17 - 01:12 PM
TheSnail 25 Nov 17 - 12:43 PM
Raggytash 25 Nov 17 - 12:37 PM
Jim Carroll 25 Nov 17 - 12:33 PM
Steve Shaw 25 Nov 17 - 12:13 PM
Raggytash 25 Nov 17 - 11:03 AM
TheSnail 25 Nov 17 - 10:55 AM
TheSnail 25 Nov 17 - 10:22 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Nov 17 - 06:56 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Nov 17 - 06:53 AM
Steve Shaw 25 Nov 17 - 06:47 AM
TheSnail 25 Nov 17 - 06:38 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Nov 17 - 06:17 AM
TheSnail 25 Nov 17 - 06:08 AM
Backwoodsman 24 Nov 17 - 03:19 PM
Backwoodsman 24 Nov 17 - 03:19 PM
Steve Shaw 24 Nov 17 - 03:04 PM
GUEST 24 Nov 17 - 03:04 PM
Jim Carroll 24 Nov 17 - 02:50 PM
Backwoodsman 24 Nov 17 - 02:45 PM
GUEST 24 Nov 17 - 01:54 PM
Backwoodsman 24 Nov 17 - 12:36 PM
Jim Carroll 24 Nov 17 - 12:25 PM
Backwoodsman 24 Nov 17 - 12:11 PM
TheSnail 24 Nov 17 - 11:26 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Nov 17 - 11:19 AM
Steve Shaw 24 Nov 17 - 11:16 AM
TheSnail 24 Nov 17 - 10:58 AM
Big Al Whittle 24 Nov 17 - 10:33 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Nov 17 - 10:25 AM
TheSnail 24 Nov 17 - 10:07 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Nov 17 - 09:57 AM
Steve Shaw 24 Nov 17 - 09:40 AM
Steve Shaw 24 Nov 17 - 09:37 AM
Backwoodsman 24 Nov 17 - 09:31 AM
Dave the Gnome 24 Nov 17 - 09:25 AM
Backwoodsman 24 Nov 17 - 08:17 AM
TheSnail 24 Nov 17 - 07:56 AM
Dave the Gnome 24 Nov 17 - 07:44 AM
Backwoodsman 24 Nov 17 - 07:34 AM
GUEST 24 Nov 17 - 06:01 AM
Steve Shaw 24 Nov 17 - 05:16 AM
GUEST 24 Nov 17 - 05:03 AM
GUEST 24 Nov 17 - 04:01 AM
Backwoodsman 24 Nov 17 - 03:08 AM
Dave the Gnome 24 Nov 17 - 02:56 AM
GUEST 24 Nov 17 - 02:27 AM
Backwoodsman 24 Nov 17 - 01:59 AM
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Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Nov 17 - 01:19 PM

i would prefer iot if there were more, but here is a list that springs to my mind. darlington britt,bodmin, wlsons club, birmingham trad, lewes,southport,swindon,stockton,bollington, mickleby, redcar, elsies, tun wells,david pleasants club,sharps, cellar upstairs,whitby,leigh on sea,llantrisant, thats just for starters.

    Time to close this thread. Too much of what has been posted lately, is just squabbling.
    -Joe Offer, Mudcat Music Editor-


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Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Nov 17 - 01:18 PM

Snail, Steve does not dig, he has a bad back. And no good denying you said he was

Steve, stop digging.

You said what you said and I quoted you verbatim. :-)

Back to the topic. Little to do with folk clubs but I went to see Blackbeard's Tea Party at a local venue last night. The place was bouncing with youngsters of all all ages:-) Brilliant show from these young traditional folk rockers! I guess there are some will turn their nose up though.

DtG


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Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Nov 17 - 01:12 PM

"The scene was aggressively kicked to death by 'folkies' who don't like folk music"
untrue, there are still a reasonable number of uk folk clubs that appreciate tradtional music


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Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 25 Nov 17 - 12:43 PM

Steve, stop digging. You said what you said and I quoted you verbatim.


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Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Raggytash
Date: 25 Nov 17 - 12:37 PM

Jim, You are out of touch, you haven't a clue what goes on in folk clubs today.

By your own admission you haven't been to a folk for decades.

You are in no position to judge.

I would go further and suggest you never were.

Just an embittered old man.

St Ewan is dead.


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Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Nov 17 - 12:33 PM

"Oh come on! "It must be true, I read it on the internet."
No - I can see it on the internet and I know what shit passes for folk song now
I also know that I have not been able to guarantee hearing a folk song in a olk club for well over twenty years - as for standards....
If you suggest a minimum standard for those singing at clubs you are accused of being elitist - doesn't matter too much anyway - you can't hear how good the singing is for the rattle of crib sheets.
All this went without saying in the past - new singers were welcomed if they put the work in - we ran workshops to raise standards and introduce nwew singers
"The same nowe" in your dreams
We have a forum here dedicated to "folk and traditional music" where you can't discuss what folk song is without a barrage of "folk police "abuse.
I have never used the term "moribund" in realtion to the clubs - that impliesd a natural death
The scene was aggressively kicked to death by 'folkies' who don't like folk music
I told you when I "excluded myself" - when I was persistently leaving clubs without hearing a folk song
JIm Carroll


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Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Nov 17 - 12:13 PM

Please don't be ridiculous, Snail. I did NOT criticise the guest for not going to folk clubs. I criticised him or her for making negative comments about two of the members here whilst making a comment that might have indicated that he does not know much about folk clubs:

"If you both frequent, and are truly representative of those who attend "Folk Clubs" in the UK, it is little wonder that they are in trouble."

The implication is that he does not know (note that "If...") whether or not they are representative of those who attend folk clubs, in other words, he doesn't go to them, otherwise he'd know whether they were representative or not. Whether he goes is not the point. I don't give a monkey's mickey. It was his standpoint on the two Mudcat members that I was railing against, and that was by no means the end of his sweeping negativities. He says he does go to folk clubs and you believe him. Fine. You take the word of an unlogged-in anonymous troll? Well good for you. At least in some regards you appear to be rather easily satisfied, that's all I can say to that (unless he's really your uncle, of course). Now you are clearly a very dedicated and successful folk club organiser and I respect you for that. I wouldn't dream of commenting on your differences with Jim, a man with whom I agree almost all the time, though I do read the posts. But you seem to be wanting to make a career out of wilfully misinterpreting what I say. You spent months doing that over evolution and you're at it again now. That's sad.


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Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Raggytash
Date: 25 Nov 17 - 11:03 AM

I first went to a folk club in 1969. In the inervening 48 years they, thankfully, have if anything got better.

During my life I have lived in numerous parts of England and Ireland and I can safely say the same thing of every club I have ever visited or played in.

For the record I visit several venues, even now, on a fairly regular basis.

Tonight I know the music will be cracking.


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Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 25 Nov 17 - 10:55 AM

Jim, when I started going to folk clubs forty five years ago, there were traditional clubs and contemporary clubs and anything goes clubs. There were good clubs and bad clubs. You keep banging on about what happened thirty years ago as evidence of what's happening now. It's just the same now just fewer of them alas. I don't know what this excluding people is about, you've excluded yourself.

Thanks to the internet and discussions such as this...
Oh come on! "It must be true, I read it on the internet." The trouble is, you read very selectively. You believe what suits your predetermined position. You'd rather trust Mudcat Moaner than me.

"Until discussions with people like you, I still held out the hope that clubs would return to their original vital role in disseminating our folk music."
Please tell, what have I said that makes you abandon that hope.

"Can I jus add that I have the highest regard for the work people like you do in your individual clubs"
An improvement on "nsty piece of work" and a bit of a contrast to the last line I quoted. And you said "clubs"! Progress.

It's your attitude to any suggestion that all might not be well on the general scene that I find destructive
Never said anything of the sort. It's your constant assertion that the whole UK folk scene is moribund that I find destructive.


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Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 25 Nov 17 - 10:22 AM

Steve Shaw
I've explained fully and honestly my credentials enabling me to contribute to this thread.
Yes, you used go to a folk club regularly up until twenty years ago. Of course you're entitled to contribute to this thread, I just question your qualifications to criticise someone else for not going to folk clubs, especially when it turns out they do.


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Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Nov 17 - 06:56 AM

Can I jus add that I have the highest regard for the work people like you do in your individual clubs
It's your attitude to any suggestion that all might not be well on the general scene that I find destructive
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Nov 17 - 06:53 AM

"I can't be expected to take responsibilty for what happened thirty of forty years ago when I wasn't involved in folk club organisation and you were."
Nobody's suggesting you are Bryan - I mentioned it because that is what happened and that is the reason it is ridiculous to exclude people who were around when folk clubs did what they said on the tin.
Thanks to the internet and discussions such as this, we have far more access to what is happening to folk clubs nationwide today than we ever had when we were just involved in our individual clubs 30 years ago.
Until discussions with people like you, I still held out the hope that clubs would return to their original vital role in disseminating our folk music.
I can only hole there are enough of the old lot around to run with the ball again - that we should all live so long!!!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Nov 17 - 06:47 AM

I've explained fully and honestly my credentials enabling me to contribute to this thread. Take it or leave it, Snail, and grab yourself a dictionary while you're at it to find out what irony is.


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Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 25 Nov 17 - 06:38 AM

No, because that isn't the world I experience. I can't be expected to take responsibilty for what happened thirty of forty years ago when I wasn't involved in folk club organisation and you were.


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Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Nov 17 - 06:17 AM

" "If you ever went to folk clubs you'd know...."?"
And you really not get the irony of confining attendance of folk clubs to their dying years after the vast majority of those who once attended them religiously were driven out by diminishing standards and the absence of folk songs?
Give us a break Bryan
You people condemn yourselves on the basis of your own behavior
Jim Caarroll


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Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 25 Nov 17 - 06:08 AM

Jim, do you really not get the irony of someone who hasn't been to a folk club for twenty years coming out with a line like "If you ever went to folk clubs you'd know...."?


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Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 03:19 PM

Oh bollocks, got a bit over excited there! :-)


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Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 03:19 PM

1100


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Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 03:04 PM

I think that "over and out" and "amen" probably mean that from now on (s)he can go hang, Jim!


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Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 03:04 PM

You can't see what's wrong with that? No.


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Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 02:50 PM

Stop feeding the exhibits lads - it gives them ideas above their station
Jim Caarroll


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Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 02:45 PM

Amen to that.


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Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 01:54 PM

What's the difference between being an "un-named troll", and someone calling themselves "Backwoodsman" or "Dave The Gnome" ?


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Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 12:36 PM

Cheers Jim. ;-)


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Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 12:25 PM

"xactly what argument, Jim?"
That the fact we no longer go to folk clubs ecludes us from offering an opinion on what happens at them
Baccky
Wasn't defending the Troll, just commenting on this particular statement
Trolls will be trolls - it comes from watching the 'troubled waters' flowing under their bridge too much
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 12:11 PM

Jim, Steve - don't sweat it guys, whilst I do have great respect for the views of others on here (yes, even those with whom I vehemently disagree!), I give not a toss about anything that nameless GUEST trolls have to say, and even less about their opinions of me.

I've been insulted and abused by experts, these smart-arsed little farts here can't touch me.


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Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 11:26 AM

xactly what argument, Jim?


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Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 11:19 AM

"No I haven't."
Yes you have
Where do we go from here?
Sorry Steve
I took it as a comment aimed at us all absentees
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 11:16 AM

Sorry, Jim, but if my comment was hardly fair about what the guest said (and I'm sticking to it), his comment about Dave and BWM was diabolical. And from an anonymous guest too...


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Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 10:58 AM

Jim Carroll
No I haven't.


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Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 10:33 AM

so sorry to learn about your hearing loss Steve. for a music lover it must be a terrible misfortune.


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Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 10:25 AM

But you have put forward xactly the same argument Bryan - and compounded it by telling us everything is fine as long as we were prepared to jump on the train and nip down to Lewes if we wanted to hear folk songs
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 10:07 AM

Steve Shaw
Merely comparing and contrasting.


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Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 09:57 AM

"what are you doing on this thread"?
Hardly a fair comments Steve
Many of us walked out of the clubsa few decades ago because of what was happening - in terme]s of both quality and the withdrawn right to choose what type of music you wished to hear.
That doesn't mean we lost interest iin the music, nor does it mean we didn't keep in touch with what was happeing to it.
Twenty odd years ago I reduced my visits to the few folk clubs that lived up to what they promised, when I was no longer able to do that, I had to rely on the internet and arguments such as this.
Neither have convinced me that my departure so long ago was ill judged
"Just sayin'" Bryan
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 09:40 AM

Oh, and that reference to evolution was accidental. Truly it was.


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Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 09:37 AM

Well, you see, Snail, it's like this. I was a very enthusiastic member of John and Cheryl Maughan's Tree Inn folk club for years, and I rarely missed a Friday night and I played nearly time I went. I also got my two children playing (they were better than me for a long time). Without that club I would never have played music. Sadly, the club folded twenty years ago. I live near Bude, an hour's drive from the nearest folk club, which is (or was) very singing-centred. A number of the club's erstwhile members stayed at the Tree running our Friday nights as a pub session. Many of the folk club regulars came along to that, at least for a time, and we'd have occasional reunions in different venues. I've trodden reasonably carefully in this thread in commenting about clubs, but I've gleaned that not much seems to have changed in terms of what goes on in typical clubs and I haven't been challenged as yet for being outdated in my remarks. Feel free to change that. I've kept in touch with what goes on even though I no longer go to clubs. My motivation for going out and about to play music has vanished since I started to lose my hearing, several years ago now. I've gathered that you are a mighty folk club aficionado and I respect that. But I think I'm still just about in sufficient touch to be able to contribute to this thread. If things have evolved beyond my present state of knowledge I'm sure you'll be the first to let me know. Cheers.


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Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 09:31 AM

Yes Dave, several names have occurred to me! I'm pretty sure they'd be the same ones that would occur to you too! :-)


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Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 09:25 AM

It's going to get worse, BWM. Now that anonymity below the line is not possible some are going to try and get their kicks up here. Hopefully they will eventually be blocked by IP address unless they state who they are. I suspect we know some!

DtG


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Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 08:17 AM

It'll be a very cold day in hell before I start caring about the opinions of un-named GUEST trolls, especially morons who make a trolling post, and immediately post again agreeing with themselves! What a cock!


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Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 07:56 AM

Steve Shaw
"First off, I'm not qualified. I haven't set foot in a folk club for twenty years."
"If you ever went to folk clubs you'd know whether they were truly representative or not and there'd be no need for that "if." So, as you presumably don't really know anything about folk clubs, what are you doing on this thread?"


Just sayin'


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Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 07:44 AM

Exactly how I thought it would interpreted by you Guest.

Now, how about

Smartarse :-)

Still think that emoticons are not needed?

DtG


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Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 07:34 AM

Neither do I.


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Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 06:01 AM

I would imagine that the initials NFC that appear in a post further down the thread stand for Newport Folk Club. Their website uses capital letters, so I find no problem with doing the same to identify any club specifically set up as a vehicle where folk music is performed. That is what a Folk Club is, as opposed to a folk club which could be a club of any description set up, and attended by all sorts of folk in general.

As for attendance? I do frequently attend various Folk Clubs in my local area and thankfully have never come across anyone as overbearingly ignorant and arrogant as yourself, or, as rude or foulmouthed as DtG, or Backwoodsman. Just my good fortune I guess, but there again I do not reside in Cornwall, Lancashire or Yorkshire, twice blessed it would seem.


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Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 05:16 AM

"If you both frequent, and are truly representative of those who attend "Folk Clubs" in the UK, it is little wonder that they are in trouble. Neither of you would appear to bring any edification to this discussion or the forum in general. Quite the reverse in fact.

Is that clear enough?"

If you ever went to folk clubs you'd know whether they were truly representative or not and there'd be no need for that "if." So, as you presumably don't really know anything about folk clubs, what are you doing on this thread?

Incidentally, don't criticise others' use of English unless yours is perfect. I've left your punctuation error and the clumsy ambiguity of your use of "both" in the quote above for your delectation. And, generally speaking, "folk clubs" doesn't require capital letters. Or speech marks, come to think of it. Tsk. Eye-roll emojee.


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Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 05:03 AM

Agree 100% with the immediate above.


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Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 04:01 AM

Up until now my comments and observations have been clearly and politely stated. The response they invoked, I would consider to be aggressive, unwarranted and extremely impolite. Others may judge for themselves:

DtG - "What would you make of the following comment without an emoticon?

Smartarse.

DtG "


Backwoodsman - "Now, here's a sentence that needs no emoji to clarify my sentiments. Un-named guest, take your insults, shove them up your fat, hairy arse, and fuck off.

Was that clear enough?"


If you both frequent, and are truly representative of those who attend "Folk Clubs" in the UK, it is little wonder that they are in trouble. Neither of you would appear to bring any edification to this discussion or the forum in general. Quite the reverse in fact.

Is that clear enough?


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Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 03:08 AM

Well, of course, I come here as a relaxation, not as part of my study for my English Masters Degree. So, if an emoji enables me to quickly, easily, add sentiment to what I write, rather than spending time writing, then re-writing, or seeking 'le mot juste', I'm very happy to utilise it.

Now, here's a sentence that needs no emoji to clarify my sentiments. Un-named guest, take your insults, shove them up your fat, hairy arse, and fuck off.

Was that clear enough?


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Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 02:56 AM

OK, Guest

What would you make of the following comment without an emoticon?

Smartarse.

DtG


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Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 02:27 AM

They take up too much "space", besides if you, by your own admission, cannot accurately portray your desired meaning and emotion in words to make whatever point you are trying to make, then it is your skills in English that need working on, not your skill in searching out the appropriate emoji.

Could not agree with you more RE:

"There's more than enough misinterpretation - both accidental and wilful - on this forum."


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Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 01:59 AM

Not at all - an Emoji is a very useful way of indicating the appropriate emotion in otherwise-sterile passages which may be open to misinterpretation. There's more than enough misinterpretation - both accidental and wilful - on this forum.


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