Lyrics & Knowledge Personal Pages Record Shop Auction Links Radio & Media Kids Membership Help
The Mudcat Cafemuddy

Post to this Thread - Printer Friendly - Home
Page: [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] [12] [13] [14] [15] [16] [17] [18] [19] [20]


What is Happening to our Folk Clubs

Big Al Whittle 14 Nov 17 - 07:08 PM
Tattie Bogle 14 Nov 17 - 05:53 PM
GUEST,Grahame Hood 14 Nov 17 - 02:07 PM
Jim Carroll 14 Nov 17 - 12:48 PM
GUEST,Hootenanny 14 Nov 17 - 11:58 AM
Raggytash 14 Nov 17 - 11:45 AM
Dave Sutherland 05 Nov 17 - 07:25 PM
The Sandman 05 Nov 17 - 08:51 AM
r.padgett 05 Nov 17 - 03:23 AM
Big Al Whittle 04 Nov 17 - 09:54 PM
Musicboy 03 Nov 17 - 12:12 PM
Jack Campin 03 Nov 17 - 10:47 AM
Backwoodsman 03 Nov 17 - 10:42 AM
Big Al Whittle 03 Nov 17 - 10:24 AM
Dave the Gnome 03 Nov 17 - 09:59 AM
Big Al Whittle 03 Nov 17 - 09:37 AM
TheSnail 03 Nov 17 - 09:30 AM
GUEST,Desi C 03 Nov 17 - 07:16 AM
GUEST 03 Nov 17 - 05:52 AM
Backwoodsman 03 Nov 17 - 05:44 AM
Big Al Whittle 03 Nov 17 - 05:01 AM
r.padgett 03 Nov 17 - 04:23 AM
Big Al Whittle 02 Nov 17 - 08:38 PM
TheSnail 02 Nov 17 - 07:00 PM
Raggytash 02 Nov 17 - 04:16 PM
Vic Smith 02 Nov 17 - 10:38 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Nov 17 - 10:37 AM
Raggytash 02 Nov 17 - 09:48 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Nov 17 - 09:42 AM
Raggytash 02 Nov 17 - 08:27 AM
Vic Smith 02 Nov 17 - 08:22 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Nov 17 - 07:22 AM
Dave the Gnome 02 Nov 17 - 07:03 AM
Big Al Whittle 02 Nov 17 - 06:46 AM
Howard Jones 02 Nov 17 - 06:45 AM
Iains 02 Nov 17 - 06:04 AM
r.padgett 02 Nov 17 - 05:25 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Nov 17 - 05:00 AM
Dave the Gnome 02 Nov 17 - 04:54 AM
Raggytash 02 Nov 17 - 04:49 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Nov 17 - 04:33 AM
Iains 01 Nov 17 - 05:27 PM
Steve Gardham 01 Nov 17 - 05:08 PM
Raggytash 01 Nov 17 - 04:49 PM
Dave the Gnome 01 Nov 17 - 04:22 PM
Dave the Gnome 01 Nov 17 - 04:16 PM
Jim Carroll 01 Nov 17 - 02:54 PM
Dave the Gnome 01 Nov 17 - 02:31 PM
TheSnail 01 Nov 17 - 02:18 PM
TheSnail 01 Nov 17 - 01:41 PM
Share Thread
more
Lyrics & Knowledge Search [Advanced]
DT  Forum
Sort (Forum) by:relevance date
DT Lyrics:






Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Nov 17 - 07:08 PM

i did a weird gig about 18 months ago. this guy asked me to a gig for people at campsite.
of course they didn't know anything even vaguely folkie. but soon i was aware of everybody singing along to EVERYTHING.

When I looked they were all singing the words from their mobile phones. i told them the title and in two shakes of a lambs tail they had tracked down the lyrics on the internet. very skillful, i can't find things that quick.

perhaps that's the way o go. tell everyone to bring a mobile phone to your folk club.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 14 Nov 17 - 05:53 PM

Ha-ha! But if you're going to put stuff on an iPad or tablet, make sure it's in a non-internet-dependent app such as Pages or Word.......or just learn it!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Grahame Hood
Date: 14 Nov 17 - 02:07 PM

Going back to the moan about floor singers just reading their songs from folders or i-phones I wrote the following song. Another thing that annoyed me once when a booked guest got in a tizz because he couldn't get a phone signal and needed it to access his setlist.
The song is sung to the tune Nic Jones uses for "Barrack Stree" or Noel Murphy for "Paddy & The Bricks"

Learn the song!

A man came to a folk club with a fine Martin guitar
A music stand with a little light. Professional! A star!
He opened up his folder at page number 62
And then he sang the same Tom Paxton song he always seems to do.

And it only had three verses, and it only had three chords
So come on guys, learn the song! The music and the words!

Then I saw another bloke, just the other day
Put his i-pad on the mic stand, and he began to play
He stopped, he blushed, he knew he?d lost the audience affection
Why have you stopped? He cried ?I?ve lost my internet connection!?

Chorus

In this modern age of apps, many sights you see
At an open mic a singer said ?Please accompany me?
The guitarist got his phone out to help him play the chords
The singer had his own phone out to remind him of the words!

Chorus

How difficult is it to just to learn a simple basic song?
Carthy and Dylan often sing ones thirty verses long!
It?s not jazz, it?s not prog rock, the chords are pretty easy
Is it just playing in public that makes folk singers queasy?

Chorus


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Nov 17 - 12:48 PM

"It might ruffle one or two feathers !!!"
One of the great constants of life is how happy the middle classes have always been to deny that working people might have something to say for themselves
Nothing new under the sun
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 14 Nov 17 - 11:58 AM

On which page ? I don't see it.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Raggytash
Date: 14 Nov 17 - 11:45 AM

Interesting article by Steve Roud in todays Guardian........



It might ruffle one or two feathers !!!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 05 Nov 17 - 07:25 PM

Just got home from Tigerfolk, Long Eaton where we had Miamh Parsons and Graham Dunne as guests (see a few hundred posts above).Great night; traditional and contemporary songs from our guests all well received; high standard of singing from the floor and a full room with not a crib sheet or music stand in sight. That's what is happening at our folk club.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Nov 17 - 08:51 AM

I had an enjoyable gig at dublin singers club, friday, plenty of good singers.
this music is not about stars or heroes it is about good performance, there was plenty of that on friday night


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: r.padgett
Date: 05 Nov 17 - 03:23 AM

Yea Tony Rose was a quality folk singer, same breathe as Nic Jones,

Martin Carthy, Dave Burland and Peter Bellamy as far as traditional

revivalists ~ we need new heroes it seems and they are out there but are

they the bookable crowd pleasers as of old?

Ray


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Nov 17 - 09:54 PM

Quite recently, i heard a young man in Weymouth fc singing When Jones's Ale Was New.

I said, gosh! i haven't heard it sung like that for a long long time. where did you learn it? It was just like being in a time machine being in THe Jolly Porter in Exeter in 1965.

he said, oh my Dad was a folksinger. he was quite well known.

turned out he was Tony Rose's son.

what happened to folk clubs. I suppose we got old....


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Musicboy
Date: 03 Nov 17 - 12:12 PM

"What do I expect to hear in a folk club...?"

To be honest, I'm happy to hear pretty much anything and everything that entertains me.

What did I actually hear in the late 60s and 70s, around Sheffield?

Child's and other collector's, traditional ballads in what appeared to be
Re-worked versions of these based largely, but not completely, on what Ashley Hutchings was doing.
Music Hall songs.
Stuff written by contemporary folk artists, including (as examples), Dylan, Lightfoot etc.
Tom Lehrer stuff
Acoustic blues.
Acoustic versions of pop songs.
Folk rock (rare though it was).
British dance music.
Skiffle.
Irish, Scottish, English, Welsh and Manx songs, so obscure that people couldn't remember who wrote them (i.e., proper folk music).
People performing unaccompanied songs (often using crib sheets.
Recitations, often using crib sheets). Note cribbing was always better than continually forgetting the words.
Songs made up by the people wot sung 'em.
Professional performances by folk stars, such as Martin Carthy, Mike Harding and that Jones chap (who was always amiable).
By 'eck, them wer't days

It would be easier to define what wasn't acceptable, rather than what was and that varied from club to club. One of the joys was that anything went. Another feature as that it didn't have to be perfect.
generally, it was us (we, the folk implied in the phrase "folk music") entertaining ourselves in our own ways.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jack Campin
Date: 03 Nov 17 - 10:47 AM

Calling them turns reminds of the old working men's clubs that showed their dislike of anyone on stage by throwing rocks at them. It is said that there was no turn unstoned.

These days it's kiwifruit.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Nov 17 - 10:42 AM

Aaaaahh, the good ole ?Boot & Shoe?! I remember it so well!
Played there several times in the ?70s, never had a bad night (but I know a few who had shockers!). Is it still there?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Nov 17 - 10:24 AM

i used to play the Boot and Shoe Club in Leicester. One desperate character had scrawled on the wall of the dressing room, " I'm not frightened of them!"

I did one gig on the Sunday lunchtime, before the stripper. A packed roomful of men all reading the Newspaper. THe stripper didn't turn up. THe word went round.
As I stood in the wings, one old bloke said, "Dunna worry lad! They'll be quire pleased to see you. Mostly the act doesn't turn up either...."


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Nov 17 - 09:59 AM

Calling them turns reminds of the old working men's clubs that showed their dislike of anyone on stage by throwing rocks at them. It is said that there was no turn unstoned.

:D tG


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Nov 17 - 09:37 AM

acts, turns, call em what you will.

it was Johnny Coppin's gig at the old Windsor Castle in Nottingham that I first noticed the phenomenon.but I've noticed that other artistes with a following organise their gigs through websites.

probably they realise that the semi pro's and floorsingers only want to listen to themselves. The days when you had actually had respect for a non famous person who just happened to have developed skills you respect is fading into the distance.

look at all the humble jobbing musicians that Jim accuses of being on some sort of showbiz gravy train.
And yourself as well Guest by the sound of it.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 03 Nov 17 - 09:30 AM

Just to avoid any ambiguity, when I said "So why are we doing it?, I meant organising clubs, not failing to book.
My answer to that is "The Music". While one or two may be doing it for the power and the glory, I think most are doing it to share the music they love with other people, both performers and audiences. I don't think any organisers are in it for the money.
Yes, we'd like bigger audiences for the music we like. I don't see that putting on music we don't like achieves that.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Desi C
Date: 03 Nov 17 - 07:16 AM

I'd just like to complain that there are far too many posts on this thread, so much so that there's no point in me telling you what I think is wrong with our Folk Clubs. bye


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Nov 17 - 05:52 AM

Acts? Acts? Big Al, maybe that's the problem, the showbiz mentality?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Nov 17 - 05:44 AM

?so you go next week, on a singers night and theres no one there.?

Exactly the opposite in the clubs I go to - rammed on ?Singers? Nights?, struggling to get an audience for booked guest artists.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Nov 17 - 05:01 AM

in these days of internet. some acts have tremendous followings through their websites.

you attend the club on a guest night, and you think - this place is doing well.

so you go next week, on a singers night and theres no one there.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: r.padgett
Date: 03 Nov 17 - 04:23 AM

Yes bookings can be down to one person, but that one person should be

aware of the attraction of certain acts and the problems with others ~

club audience is a fickle thing and many factors will come to play ~

indeed with a folk club the weekly attendees could all be musicians ~

not come the week/s that guests are booked etc

Many clubs have folded and the right balance can be of paramount

importance ~ building audiences of different sorts could be a good

idea! Paying to see guests, floor singers, floor musicians, raffle

persons, treasurer, etc all are important in getting a thriving club ~

but do not leave all to the few ~ too many dead (useless individuals)

should be pulled out of the ruck (Rugby Union sorry) moaners and groaners can be disasterous (in gest! er um)

Ray


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Nov 17 - 08:38 PM

as i remember there were a number of reasons

1) responding to requests of other club members
2) booking friends. you don't always like the music your friend plays
3) maybe you owe a favour to another club organiser - so you book an act, because the act will visit your area for two bookings but not for one
4) admiration for the skill of an artist - even if its not really your sort of thing
5) a cracking review that makes an artist of interest

probably hundreds more reasons, but what else would you do?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 02 Nov 17 - 07:00 PM

I'd like to stay in this discussion, there are interesting things to discuss. I'll just have to steer clear of Jim.
r.padgett
Club organisers who fail to book except to their own tastes
Ummm? So why are we doing it?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Raggytash
Date: 02 Nov 17 - 04:16 PM

No Jim, I am stating FACT James Miller was his name, I am not "mixing" it as you claim.

I know as far as you are concerned the sun shone out of his arse but the fact remains he was brought into this life with the name James Miller.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Vic Smith
Date: 02 Nov 17 - 10:38 AM

Jim wrote:-
Joe Heaney, Bobby Casey, Tom McCarthy, Martin Burns and Seamus Ennis
Decades ago, I booked three of these performers at our folk club. Bobby and the McCarthy Family* twice and Seamus quite a number of times in the early 1970s as Tina and I used to arrange tours for him - so I must be getting something right in your eyes. Perhaps when you wrote that I had gone over to the Dark Side, you meant that I had gone over to the Irish Side.

* I remember going round the corner to the phone box to phone Tommy McCarthy, couldn't afford a house phone in those days. I phoned Tommy and suggested a date. He said that he thought the date was suitable but give him a minute to check in his diary. He came back to the phone and said, "Oh dear! This is most unfortunate. Sadly, we are booked at the Royal Albert Hall on that date."..... we managed to arrange another date.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Nov 17 - 10:37 AM

"Just stating fact Jim."
No you're not Raggy - you're mixing it
MacColl changed his name officially and was only referred to as Miller by the 'lower echelons'
If MacColl is Miller then Dylan is Zimmermann


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Raggytash
Date: 02 Nov 17 - 09:48 AM

Just stating fact Jim.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Nov 17 - 09:42 AM

No- it isn't Vic - It was written for Phillip Donnellan's film, The Irishmen, nver released in Britain as the Beeb didn't like what some of the Navvies said about the conditions on English sites
It was shown on Irish television when Donnellan died in 1999 and is due to be shown at our local History Society next month, if you're around
It's a superb film and the soundtrack includes Joe Heaney, Bobby Casey, Tom McCarthy, Martin Burns and Seamus Ennis
Some of MacColl's best songs were used, but never sung around because they were never released elsewhere, apart from Tunnel Tigers

THE RAMBLER FROM CLARE (1966)
I had to sell my bicycle to get me fare over. The missus had to borrow from the neighbours, a pound here, ten bob there, to get me fare. I'll try and get my wife and family over here this year if I make a go of it, for there's definitely nothing back in Ireland for a poor man. Nothing! (John Foran, recorded in London, 1965)

There's Johnny Munnelly, a Mayo man, was the greatest man that ever came out of Ireland, and he slaughtered himself for John Laing, took TB and died. And the sinker, Jim Heeley ... slaughtered himself upon piece-work that tore that man's heart and guts out. The man's walking around now with one lung and there's not a man to walk up and say, 'Well, Jim, you've done good work! Here's a pint! Here's a pound, here's a feed.!' They're finished for life. They're finished for life! ' (County Offally man, recorded in London, 1965)

         
tune: traditional Irish ('The Rambler from Clare')
new words and trad arr.: Ewan MacColl
? 1968 Stormking Music, Inc.

I am a young fellow that's very well known;
I've travelled through Galway and the County Tyrone.
For work I've been searching through Cork and Kildare,
There was never a job for the rambler from Clare.

Through Kerry I searched with no brogues to me feet,
I was stranded in Sligo with nothing to eat;
Till in desperation I borrowed the fare,
And 'Goodbye to old Ireland,' said the rambler from Clare.

On the boat leaving Ireland I stood in the bar,
And a big red-faced agent he stood me a jar.
Says he: 'Up in Scotland they're building dams there
And there's plenty of work for a rambler from Clare.'

I made for Argyll where I dug a big hole;
It was half-a-mile deep and I felt like a mole.
It held ten million gallons of water, I swear,
And the most of it sweat from the rambler from Clare.

The next job I worked on was digging a drain;
I moved up the trench like a big diesel train.
They laid off the rest of the gang then and there,
For the equal of ten was the rambler from Clare.

One day they was moving a bridge into place
And a thousand-ton crane it falls flat on its face.
Like Ajax that bridge on me shoulders I bear -
There's no crane in the world like the rambler from Clare.

They'll tell you my equal was ne'er to be seen;
They called me 'the horse' and 'the digging machine';
The gangermen loved me, the agents would stare,
All admiring the strength of the rambler from Clare.

But now I am bent and me fire is turned cold;
In another four years I'll be fifty years old.
I'm worn out and finished, but what do they care?
For they've had all they want of the rambler from Clare.

MacColl always spelt his name this way - that's the way the family spell it now - typo on my part
I'm never sure whether Dylan spells Zimmermann with on N or two Raggy - don't be petty
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Raggytash
Date: 02 Nov 17 - 08:27 AM

Neither Vic, his name is Jimmy Miller !!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Vic Smith
Date: 02 Nov 17 - 08:22 AM

Two questions for Jim -

* Is "MaColl's neglected navvy songs, Rambler From Clare" a different one from the well known song "Johnny Patterson, the Rambler from Clare" that Harry Bradshaw writes about at http://www.clarelibrary.ie/eolas/coclare/music/johnny_patterson_bradshaw2.htm Bradshaw calls him not a navvy but "the 19th century Irish circus clown".


* Is the spelling of Ewan's surname 'MaColl' as you have just posted or is it 'MacColl' as you posted at 17 Oct 17 - 08:51 AM. It's not just you. I see that surnmame given in both these ways as well as sometimes 'McColl' that I find it confusing.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Nov 17 - 07:22 AM

Jim. I do not think you will find anyone on this forum trying to "junk"
either the material, the existing definitions,
You have done both Ians - you have described the music as an irrelevance of the past and have consistently challenged the definition
"But in your definitions it is now a sterile ,fossilised body of work,"
I did not say this - I pointed out the uses it has been put to in both creating new songs and being used to display workers lives, particularly in the form of the Radio Ballads
The songs themselves are no more "corpses" than are the plays of Shakespeare or the literary creations of Dickens and Hardy - they continue to entertain, inspire and move   
All have the similar problem of the dumbing down of our culture via technology - the beauty of our language is being debased, literacy is being destroyed by misuse or non-use, the general attention span has lessened and the commercialisation of our culture has made it subservient to the market rather than the needs of people in general.
Today's music is created with a sell-by date and it comes into the world still-born - fixed in its conceived form and belonging to the creator - that is why it can never belong to 'the folk'
You can sing it in your bath, but is you attempt to pass it on to the general public you pay for the privilege.
Ye can no longer pass on, receive and remake the songs in our own image, which was an essential feature of folk creation
The essential creative asset of folk creation was its narrative quality and its universality was based on the fact that the depicted characters generally were named and had real occupations - we could identify with and adapt them to meet our own situations.
We could even revisit them a century or so later and continue to do the same.
That is not the case with commercial modern composition, though it can work with newly made songs using the old forms
As with Al's background, my dad was a navvy - when I restarted singing I took a look at MaColl's neglected navvy songs, Rambler From Clare, Indeed I Would, Farwell to Ireland and Tunnel Tigers - I had n problem in identifying with them and neither do those I now sing them to here on the West Coast of Ireland.
They reflect their lives as they resonate with my family background
No pop song could ever do that in a million years as they are rooted in a fantasy world of nameless non-people (with very few exceptions)
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Nov 17 - 07:03 AM

Agreed, Al. Shame we had to get to nearly a thousand posts before someone actually came up with what are probably the best set of reasons for folk clubs closing! I think what would now be a positive step is if we were to discuss what can be done about it. Although that may get to another 1K ;-)

DtG


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Nov 17 - 06:46 AM

This is a very rewarding thread.

My own family were descended from the navvies that were working on the canals round Liverpool in the early 1800's. My grandfather was sold as an infant for a quid to the Whittle family - by an Irish gypsy lady called Travers. The sale was effected in a pub in St Helens.

As Jim's post had relevance to me personally. it was interesting. not that i like to get bogged down in the past. the grandfather became an english soldier who had no truck with the Irish republican cause. THe Irish branch of the family were doing physical jerks with some sort of IRA youth organisation in the 1930's - preparing to fight with the English! I can see how they wouldn't get on. history isn't a tidy business.

however , Ray Padgett's hard headed analysis is probably the most interesting set of propositions to people who actually do the business of organising folk clubs. I won't say Jim's turf war isn't interesting, but one suspects its really neither here nor there. When folk clubs were doing well. The Grey Cock and The Star Club and The Old Crown in Digbeth were packing in the traddy crowd and Les Ward and Jim McPhee were running very successful contemporary folk clubs during the 1970's. When folk clubs were doing well. Everyone was doing well.

My own recollection of the period was that I had a folk club in the wilds of Staffordshire that I took over from Andy Dwyer. I can remember when petrol went up to 30p a gallon , I thought - people won't be able to afford to come out this far. Though it went on another couple years and OPEC kept the pressure on.

Also the breweries got very greedy . Landlords were paying so much rent, they had to charge a lot for drinks.

The tightening up of the breathalyser laws were beneficial for road safety. Neverthe less I suspect there are many of whose heart sinks at the thought of buying diet coke all evening at three quid plus a pint. And the stuff running through you like a bloody tap.

Other considerations are the differing attitudes to disability. You can't really expect an upstairs room in a pub to be an acceptable venue any more. MOre pubs are geared towards being 'food' pubs nowadays. Families eat out more.

Those pubs that want to be drinking holes - the chairs are often bloody uncomfortable and sometimes non existent

Realistically - don't you think these factors have provided more problems for folk clubs than disagreements about what a few intellectuals cooked up in 1954.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Howard Jones
Date: 02 Nov 17 - 06:45 AM

When I go to a folk club I expect to hear music performed in a certain style. I struggle to describe this with any precision, but I know it when I hear it, more or less. I also acknowledge that the term"folk" as a genre in general usage goes way beyond traditional music or even music based on traditional forms, even though those are my principal interests, and that I am likely to hear this sort of folk as well. That is simply how it is, unwelcome though it may be to some.

I don't expect that everything I hear, even if it is trad, will be to my liking. Likewise I don't always agree when some artists have the folk label attached to them. However, assuming the bulk of material performed is "folk style" then to me it seems reasonable to call itself a "folk club". If I regularly find that too much is not to my personal taste then I won't go, but that is my problem rather than the club's.

The term "folk" is sometimes regarded as toxic, and some suggest dropping the word to avoid putting people off. If a venue is really an open-mic I would expect it to be more successful describing itself as that rather than masquerading as a folk club. However I wonder how many such "folk clubs" really exist? I'm sure there are some, but are they really a widespread problem?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Iains
Date: 02 Nov 17 - 06:04 AM

Unless there is some degree of agreement it is difficult to describe what occurs within a folk club, let alone being able to categorize the material performed(I am sure there is a better word-but it escapes me)

Jim. I do not think you will find anyone on this forum trying to "junk"
either the material, the existing definitions, or the existing body of research on traditional folk. I cannot see where you get that idea from - certainly not from me. Instead of cherrypicking the bits of a post you do not like and immediately firing off the hip, try and read the entire post and make a reasoned case as with your extensive, thoughtful post above.
I think many of us here are trying to find a way of making the 54 definition encompass "contemporary folk"
As I said above Dave the Gnome made(for me), fairly unique wider interpreation of the 54 definition that allows for "modern contributions" to the genre.

I will   try and explain my problem in terms of what you have previously posted and if I misquote you please correct me.
You say the traditional creative process is dead(the travellers all purchased TV's) Undoubtedly true! Work songs largely if not entirely gone the same way. Hard to sing or create a shanty when one person operating a couple of spool valves does the work of fifty. Similarly I never heard roughnecks singing, only a lot of grunting- until topdrives and iron roughnecks reduced some of the hard graft required.

Undoubtedly there is a huge body of collected work and many performers draw on it. But in your definitions it is now a sterile ,fossilised body of work, with no fresh input, as the traditions have died.
That is why I referred to it (using your definitions)as worrying a corpse. I am not trying to belittle the traditional works in any way, or rejecting them. I suppose in essence what I am trying to say that as the performers/audience get further from the traditions that created them then I suspect the attraction to the genre will diminish over time. MY PERSONAL VIEW! However if you accept that a modern tradition exists then it enables a continuous link with the past and broadens the appeal. If you restrict the definition then I think you do the genre a great disservice.

I would be interested to know what you would describe the transatlantic sessions as - it certainly gathered a wide audience and interest.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: r.padgett
Date: 02 Nov 17 - 05:25 AM

What is happening to our folk clubs:

Folk clubs needs a definition ~ in my view folk clubs were extremely popular through the 70s and 80s and was an often weekly or indeed monthly etc gathering of people who met on a social outing usually in a pub or other quiet ish venue ~ some folk clubs presented the music of the day pop music or an alternative to THE pop music of the time which had a different following

So what is happening to Folk clubs?
My pet word ~ audiences are or lack of is what is missing ~ and I think many will recognise that the world has turned a time or two:

Pubs mismanaged to make pub managers turn them into cash cows and sell the over priced beer to make more profit (or not?0

Country pubs ~ travel by car drinking laws

Venues in general more difficult to find as pubs demolished

Younger potential folk not finding folk their music ~ with exceptions of course

Folk not being really mainstream and loud pop music being the norm

Folk being largely followed by an ageing population on a day to day basis

Clubs being fractionalised into traditional, contemporary ~ musicians sessions, mixed sessions etc ~reason for this is generally to do with the funding issue and audiences which are followers of a certain type of music/song and will stay at home if they are not content

Club organisers who fail to book except to their own tastes

Lack of committees (or not!!) people are people and have their own tastes whims and fancies (an awkward bunch!)

Folk clubs generally being not as dedicated and professional as very many folk club guests would like

Too many would be guests who are not doing their bit to run clubs as they should be doing (in my view)

A diminishing following of floor singers singing and playing (many people and followers are dedicating time and talent still to their branch of folk I would add)and time being of essence

SO are folk clubs being taken over by Folk festivals? Are singers and players spending more time with their fellow singer and players?

What then of folk club guests and folk festivals ~ I have no doubt that folk clubs are still very much in existence and I certainly know of many, many that do book guests regularly

Clubs are made up of disparate individuals each with their one views and aspirations as to what they want from a folk club and indeed what they are prepared to GIVE to the folk club to ensure its success ~ do clubs exist solely to provide a living for the booked guest I would ponder also!

I leave it there for now ~ these are questions to ask mebbe ~ so no personal comments please!

Ray


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Nov 17 - 05:00 AM

Folk clubs is the operative word dave - that should be a guide to what happens in folk clubs not a definition
Take on the name and you take on a responsibility
Why call them folk clubs otherwise - nobody is forced to?

Thank you Raggy
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Nov 17 - 04:54 AM

We must not become confused with a definition for doing research and a definition of what should happen in folk clubs. Definitions are definitely very relevant for the former but no so much for the latter as has already been discussed. In my opinion.

DtG


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Raggytash
Date: 02 Nov 17 - 04:49 AM

Thanks Jim, a clear, legible and very interesting post.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Nov 17 - 04:33 AM

"Definitions are irrelevant here, or at least not helpful."
Sorry Steve, I'm going to treat this as I feel it deserves - I don't know a single researcher who doesn't use a definition to guide their work - especially one who deals in definitive statements as you do

"Jim. In your last couple of posts it seems to me that if you allowed a slight flexibility in definition"
No Ians - I have never suggested that any club should have a rigid policy of just folk songs, but they remain as defined and researched - at least until someone comes up with something better - nobody has.
As far as using tones, traditional songs were largely descriptions of what was happening at the time they were made, usually emotional based reactions
English songs are dominantly narrative (with some exceptions)with a start, a middle and an end, and a chronologically related plot
The older singers performed them as stories with music - they pitched their voices around speaking tones and they seldom broke up words or sentences (unless old-age forced them to do so)
Every singer we asked told us that the story was far more important than the tune - without fail.

In the healthiest of traditions we worked in, the singers interpreted the songs, where the traditions had died, they tended to remember the words, but tones and speech patterns remained a feature of the singing
If you interpret songs carrying different emotional messages, you do so in different tones as you do in everyday speech
The Critics Group evolved exercises to do what traditional singers did naturally

As far is definition is concerned, it is unbelievably arrogant to suggest that you can dismiss over a century of extensively documented research and replace it with something that happens in a tiny number of clubs who can't even agree among themselves
You want a new definition - put one up and argue for it

Now - what you are attempting to junk
So far, the insistence by some people here on centring this argument around the '54 definition has meant that we have dealt with the songs at arms lenghth
I have become convinced that Folk Songs proper are the products of the working people of Britain - the changes wrought by the Industrial Revolution finally placed the making of those songs in the rural areas or in occupations such as soldiering and the seagoing trades
People made songs to express their lives and experiences.
Some were work songs but most were for entertainment, but the circumstances in which they were made make them vital pieces of oral history which was quite often never officially recorded.
That is why, as far as I am concerned, any organisation which calls itself "folk", takes on the responsibility of preserving those songs - the earlier revival pretty well did right up to the 80s - large sections of the clubs no longer do so - hence arguments like these.

There's no question of the job of keeping the songs alive being an 'onerous duty' - thousand of people got a great deal of pleasure singing them for over three decades - ballads, sea songs, lyrical songs comic, tragic, ritual - even kids songs
I see no reason why that still shouldn't be the case

During our research work we went into the backgrounds of the songs in some depth and came up with what we believe were socially important aspects of the songs, which, make them an important part of our social history
I'll put a few up with some of the findings to try and make my point
Some will be Irish, but I feel they are equally relevant, wherever they come from

I'm from a Irish background - my family left Ireland during the evictions following the Famine
This period produced many hundreds of songs reflecting the immigrants' experiences when landing in Britain and America
This is one of those song - in my opinion, both very singable and socially/historically important - I'd be delighted to her that this wasn't the case
It can be heard on The Clare County website listed under 'The Carroll Mackenzie Song Collection

The Sons of Granuaile sung by Michael ?Straighty? Flanagan, Inagh

You loyal-hearted Irishmen that do intend to roam,
To reap the English harvest so far away from home.
I?m sure you will provide with us both comrades loyal and true;
For you have to fight both day and night with John Bull and his crew.

When we left our homes from Ireland the weather was calm and clear.
And when we got on board the ship we gave a hearty cheer.
We gave three loud cheers for Paddy?s land, the place we do adore,
May the heavens smile on every child that loves the shamrock shore.

We sailed away all from the quay and ne?er received a shock,
Till we landed safe in Liverpool one side of Clarence Dock.
Where hundreds of our Irishmen they met us in the town;
Then ?Hurrah for Paddy?s lovely land?, it was the word went round.

With one consent away we went to drink strong ale and wine,
Each man he drank a favourite toast to the friends he left behind.
We sang and drank till the ale house rang dispraising Erin?s foes,
Or any man that hates the land where St Patrick?s shamrock grows.

For three long days we marched away, high wages for to find.
Till on the following morning we came to a railway line.
Those navies they came up to us, and loudly they did rail,
They cursed and damned for ould Paddy?s lands, and the sons of Granuaile.

Up stands one of our Irish boys and says, ?What do you mean?
While us, we?ll work as well as you, and hate a coward?s name.
So leave our way without delay or some of you will fall,
Here stands the sons of Irishmen that never feared a ball.?

Those navies then, they cursed and swore they?d kill us every man.
Make us remember ninety-eight, Ballinamuck and Slievenamon.
Blessed Father Murphy they cursed his blessed remains,
And our Irish heroes said they?d have revenge then for the same.

Up stands Barney Reilly and he knocked the ganger down.
?Twas then the sticks and stones they came, like showers to the ground.
We fought from half past four until the sun was going to set,
When O?Reilly says, ?My Irish boys, I think we will be bet.?

But come with me my comrade boys, we?ll renew the fight once more.
We?ll set our foes on every side more desperate than before.
We will let them know before we go we?d rather fight than fly,
For at the worst of times you?ll know what can we do, but die.

Here?s a health then to the McCormicks to O?Donnell and O?Neill,
And also the O?Donoghues that never were afraid.
Also every Irish man who fought and gained the day
And made those cowardly English men - in crowds they ran away.


?Irish immigrants fleeing the Famine and the mass evictions were met with prejudice and violence in many of the places they chose as their new homes. This account from Terry Coleman?s ?Railway Navvies? gives a vivid description of the reception many of them received when they landed in Britain. It describes the plight of the men who took work as railway navvies in the English/Scots border country:

?Throughout the previous year the railways had been extending through the English border country and into Scotland. A third of the navvies were Irish, a third Scots, and a third English: that was the beginning of the trouble - easy-going Roman Catholic Irish, Presbyterian Scots, and impartially belligerent English. The Irish did not look for a fight. As the Scottish Herald reported, they camped, with their women and children, in some of the most secluded glades, and although most of the huts showed an amazing disregard of comfort, the hereditary glee of their occupants seemed not a whit impaired. This glee enraged the Scots, who then added to their one genuine grievance (the fact that the Irishmen would work for less pay and so tended to bring down wages) their sanctified outrage that the Irish should regard the Sabbath as a holiday, a day of recreation on which they sang and lazed about. As for the Scots, all they did on a Sunday was drink often and pray occasionally, and it needed only an odd quart of whisky and a small prayer to make them half daft with Presbyterian fervour. They then beat up the godless Irish. The Irish defended themselves and this further annoyed the Scots, so that by the middle of 1845 there was near civil war among the railway labourers. The English, mainly from Yorkshire and Lancashire, would fight anyone, but they preferred to attack the Irish. The contractors tried to keep the men, particularly the Irish and Scots, apart, employing them on different parts of the line, but the Scots were not so easily turned from their religious purposes. At Kinghorn, near Dunfermline, these posters were put up around the town:

"Notice is Given
that all the Irish men on the line of railway in Fife Share must be off the grownd and owt of the countey on Monday th nth of this month or els we must by the strenth of our armes and a good pick shaft put them off
Your humbel servants, Schots men."

Letters were also sent to the contractors and sub-contractors. One read:

"Sir, - You must warn all your Irish men to be of the grownd on Monday the 11th of this month at 12 o'cloack or els we must put them by forse FOR WE ARE DETERMINED TO DOW IT."

The sheriff turned up and warned the Scots against doing anything of the sort. Two hundred navvies met on the beach, but in the face of a warning from the sheriff they proved not so determined to do it, and the Irish were left in peace for a while. But in other places the riots were savage. Seven thousand men were working on the Caledonian line, and 1,100 of these were paid monthly at a village called Locherby, in Dumfriesshire. Their conduct was a great scandal to the inhabitants of a quiet Scottish village. John Baird, Deputy Clerk of the Peace for the county, lamented that the local little boys got completely into the habits of the men - "drinking, swearing, fighting, and smoking tobacco and all those sorts of things". Mr Baird thought that on a pay day, with constant drunkenness and disturbance, the village was quite uninhabitable.

A minority of the navvies were Irish, and they were attacked now and again, as was the custom. After one pay day a mob of 300 or 400, armed with pitchforks and scythes, marched on the Irish, who were saved only because the magistrates intervened and kept both sides talking until a force of militia came up from Carlisle, twenty-three miles away.'

The writer goes in to explain that the worst of the riots were to follow. This song describes the situation in Britain, specifically in Liverpool; we have never come across it before and can find no trace of it. A similar song ?Seven of our Irishmen? (Roud 3104), sung by Straighty and by Pat MacNamara, deals with those who landed in America and were targeted as possible recruits for the U.S. army."

Reference:
The Railway Navvies, Terry Coleman, 1965.
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Iains
Date: 01 Nov 17 - 05:27 PM

"I believe the tradition has died but I believe that a mix of those songs and new ones made using them as a template is a perfectly acceptable way of presenting both under one roof - they don't have to be the same to be complementary to one another"

Jim. In your last couple of posts it seems to me that if you allowed a slight flexibility in definition you would find a lot of support for your viewpoint. I will try to amplify what I an getting at:

I would say in the western world ir is not so much the tradition has died, more the way of life that gave rise to the tradition.
Instead of saying new ones made using the old as a template, rephrase it to say contemporary folk is the new tradition that has evolved as old ways have become extinct. If we can agree on this much of the dispute evaporates(Ithink)


The idea that singing in different tones expresses different emotions is a very old idea and those clever enough to compose utilise it either knowingly or instinctively, with great effect. It is this device that raises the hackles, or possibly lyrics can do it by themselves or maybe it is the combination. There has to be some key aspect of a song that makes it memorable enough to be subjected to the
process by which it is recognised as being within the folk genre.This obviously does not include shanties, worksongs etc for the sake of argument let me loosely define them as big ballads. I think the middle ground of what is folk can be accepted by most, but trying to define the end points is a minefield best not entered.
   I think there has been too much emphasis placed on the role of Ewan MacCol, there were others about in the same time period, Derek Sarjeant for one. What actually created the folk revival of the 60's,
was it the critics who few had heard of, or the amount of contemporary folk played on the radio and tv? Top of the Pops even starred the Dubliners in the 60's.

I think most of us going to a folk club expect a variety of material, whether it old new or a mix is I think less important. I think most look for variety either through the genre or through the ages, or all of this.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 01 Nov 17 - 05:08 PM

Okay, this has gone on going round and round in circles for far too long. It's taken far too long but you are all not far from being in agreement despite the invectives.

Definitions are irrelevant here, or at least not helpful.

What do we all feel is acceptable to be heard in folk clubs? Jim has clearly stated that it must surely include traditional folk songs and songs that have been written since this revival started that are 'in the style of' those traditional songs. I am not excluding anything at this point, but before continuing let's see if I am right over this and that we can all agree on this.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 Nov 17 - 04:49 PM

Jim .............. if you are trying to communicate with numerous people on an open forum it is up to you to make your argument clear.

You cannot expect people to make strenuous efforts to decipher your posts.

The onus is on you to post clearly and legibly so that the readers of your posts can understand the points you are trying to make.

The way I am posting now, as I often do, clarifies I hope, the points I am trying to make.

If people do not comprehend what you are trying to say, the problem is largely yours not theirs.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Nov 17 - 04:22 PM

One last point - THis seems to be based on the idea that sll folk songs are the same

That came completely out of left field for me. No such thing was implied or intended and having re-read I cannot see how that conclusion was reached. But, if that is how you saw it, I can assure it was a only comment about differing views.

D.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Nov 17 - 04:16 PM

Ok, Jim,that was different enough to warrant attention. I can see you are trying to understand my point of view as much as I am trying to understand yours. Thank you for that. I shall try to make my point clearer.

Sorry - I don't understand your point
An evening of any type of song cannot be a definition of a fol song


That is not the point I am trying to make at all and I shall take responsibility for not making it clear. You are quite right. One cannot be the other but if we go back to one of your early points, IE you go to a folk club to listen to folk music, then that is how the two become meshed.

1. You go to a folk club to listen to folk music.
2. If you are satisfied that the folk club has fulfilled your criteria then the songs presented must have been folk music.
3. If the music presented is a mix of traditional and traditional style contemporary songs then...
4. A mix of traditional and traditional style songs must your idea of what folk music should be.

To me that seems a logical conclusion to a clear thought process. You may disagree but rather than suggest I being dishonest in some way, how about testing my logic and disproving it?

BTW - I would be more than interested in your views on whether the song I learned from my Dad is a folk song. Particularly as he learned it from Gypsies and your particular forte is the music of travelers.

Common ground?

DtG


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Nov 17 - 02:54 PM

" your constant attacks aren't going to do any harm to English folk clubs."
You really do need to look at your own behavior Bryan - but it shouldn't be about us, should it?
Sorry - I don't understand your point
An evening of any type of song cannot be a definition of a fol song
Apart from that, a mix of types of song, as I have always preferred and proposed cannot be a definition of a type of song.
"although I find a little odd,"
Why odd
I believe the tradition has died but I believe that a mix of those songs and new ones made using them as a template is a perfectly acceptable way of presenting both under one roof - they don't have to be the same to be complementary to one another
I reapeat my point being a perfect mix of traditional songs, newly composed ones and vernacular speech
I saw works of playwrights like Alex Glasgow and john McGrath doing exactly the same.
"Life would be very boring if we were all the same."
THis seems to be based on the idea that sll folk songs are the same, which tey most certainly are not - shanties, lyrical songs, narrative songs, big ballads, bawdy songs, rural encounters, humorous songs - throw in a smatter of kids songs and mouth music and, well done, you can let an audience leave walking on air - seen it happen often
The Critics experimented with singing in different tones based on the fact that a human voice alters tonally when it expresses different emotions - try it sometime
British traditional music is basically unaccompanied, but MacColl and Seeger constantly experimented with accompaniment all the time - I have a recording of a two hour lecture Peggy gave on the uses of accompaniment
A standard work evening at the Critics Group was half a dozen varying songs for criticism - oene of the criteria was "did the sameness of yothe songs make your "ears fall asleep"
The more I examine the song tradition, the more surprises I find
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Nov 17 - 02:31 PM

If what I say is totally incoherent - as you and Dave have claimed

But I have never claimed such a thing, Jim. I said I had difficulty understanding what you were saying and accepted that I had partial responsibility for that.

He asked
"Do we take it then that this is your definition of folk music?"
I responded that it is not my definition - it is what I expect of a night at a folk club - a mix of folk songs and contemporary song based on folk song styles


But that is not true either is it, Jim. I asked "Do we take it then that this is your definition of folk music?" and you responded No (if your question made sense) how can an evening of songs become a folk song? which, I'm afraid, went over my head.

Still, you have now clarified that what you expect at a folk club is not your definition of folk music which, although I find a little odd, I can accept in the context of this thread. If I go to a folk club I do expect an evening of what I believe to be folk music, which is a mix of traditional and contemporary songs. Life would be very boring if we were all the same.

We are both agreed on what we want from a folk club at least and I admit I will never understand what your definition of folk music is. That is enough for me and as you do not seem to be interested in finding common ground I will also withdraw to the sidelines unless anything other than repetitive argument and invective happens that catches my eye.

Cheers

DtG


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 01 Nov 17 - 02:18 PM

You're too kind, Vic (much too kind).
I excuse you the typo but as for pre-empting my venomous snail joke...Hrrrmph!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 01 Nov 17 - 01:41 PM

Jim, I think you've just about destroyed any credibility you may have had so your constant attacks aren't going to do any harm to English folk clubs.

Because cone snails are slow-moving, they use a venomous harpoon (called a toxoglossan radula) to capture faster-moving prey, such as fish. The venom of a few larger species, especially the piscivorous ones, is powerful enough to kill a human being.

You have been warned.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate
Next Page

  Share Thread:
More...

Reply to Thread
Subject:  Help
From:
Preview   Automatic Linebreaks   Make a link ("blue clicky")


Mudcat time: 17 November 4:38 PM EST

[ Home ]

All original material is copyright © 1998 by the Mudcat Café Music Foundation, Inc. All photos, music, images, etc. are copyright © by their rightful owners. Every effort is taken to attribute appropriate copyright to images, content, music, etc. We are not a copyright resource.