BS: Global warming

Subject: Global warming
From: skarpi
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 05:24 PM

As a human being living in the North region of this Earth , in the North Atlantic Island of Iceland , as we see our Glacier melting very fast , that is you can see change from spring to spring , more powerful wind´s and rain , higher sea level , and more activity of Earthquake ´s and eruption to as the Glacier is lighter of the earth surface ,

In USA you have more powerful hurricanes and not just one or two but five or six in a row ,
today or tomorrow Mr. Trump is going to stop the agreement that the Obama Government did to stop Global warming , it´s a sad day for USA , but not only for USA but for the hole Mother Earth . Global Warming is not only human´s fault , it´s also because some thing in outer space does affect Earth in this change of the shape of the mother Earth , some thing happened to Venus 2015/16 , the question is what is it that is affecting mother Earth , NASA may know and won´t tell , but who wonder´s about NASA , never a straight answer

But human´s does help so fight back we only have one Mother Earth and we should listen to our mother , the Indian´s know how , but we the future people have lost our contact with mother earth .

Love to you all in hope Mr.Trump will see the truth .
Skarpi Iceland .

Subject: RE: Global warming
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 05:42 PM

We need Mr Trump to have one term only, preferably a lot less. The US with or without Trump is a major problem for the planet in terms of anthropogenic global warming. The Land of the Free has a habit of bowing before powerful lobby groups that not a single one of their citizens ever voted for. The oil industry lobby is by no means the weakest of them.

Subject: RE: Global warming
From: Nick
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 06:19 PM

That's my open fire shamed into postponement..

Subject: RE: Global warming
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 06:35 PM

I had that very thought too, Nick. But just think of all that energy that goes into the manufacture of a single XXL Arran sweater....

And remember the old joke: give a man a bag of coal and you’ll keep him warm for the night. Set a man on fire and you’ll keep him warm for the rest of his life...

Subject: RE: Global warming
From: keberoxu
Date: 09 Oct 17 - 07:02 PM

Don't know if you noticed, Skarpi,
but in recent months the BS section of Mudcat
has had some heated threads on the pros and cons of this topic.

Maybe your thread will be more temperate?

Subject: RE: Global warming
From: Mr Red
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 03:17 AM

Welcome to the Anthropocene, Skarpi.

Rates of extinction show an alarming rise, not only their number, but the apparent swiftness. Great nations living in the memory of greatness, strutting their stuff as if the greatness is more real than actuality.

Mind you - technology has the answer. Fakebook*.

Nero fiddles, while Rome burns.

*Other anti-social media are available. The lunatics have taken over the ..... have broken out of the asylum.

Subject: RE: Global warming
From: Iains
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 04:08 AM

I have no doubt that most of those that will comment on this thread will still be driving gas guzzlers,taking foreign holidays, winding up the central heating as it gets colder, or burning wood and coal, while feeding on imported foods and wines. Everyone on the planet contributes to global warming with China, the US and EU being the biggest offenders.
   Until replacement technologies exist, reducing the carbon footprint significantly will cause acute discomfort and/or massive mortality in all advanced economies.
Immediate steps could be:(however unpopular they may be)
Banning private cars
legislating for minimum living space with upgraded insulation
banning out of season fruit and vegetables
minimising meat eating
make vegetable gardens compulsory wherever possible
etc
etc.
We are on a heavily overpopulated planet where natural resources are being pillaged on an increasing scale. The only guaranteed way to reduce the carbon footprint is to cull. Who wants to volunteer?

Subject: RE: Global warming
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 05:02 AM

I would suggest taking a leaf from 'Logan's run' and euthanise everyone at age thirty. But that would wipe out most of the Mudcat population, and leave my grand-daughter without parents by the end of the year.

So I guess we'll just carry on with 'business as usual'.

Subject: RE: Global warming
From: Iains
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 05:13 AM

But meanwhile many governments, unwilling to let a perceived crisis go to waste, are spawning all sorts of revenue raising wheezes, on the back of global warming. "You know it makes sense, it is green. Gaiea will love you!"

Subject: RE: Global warming
From: Raggytash
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 05:42 AM

Over the weekend I traveled on both Saturday and Sunday the 125 miles to visit my aged Mother in hospital after suffering at least two strokes. (500 miles in total)

The Motorway section of the journey (75 miles) was full of traffic in both directions for mile after mile. I did wonder where all these thousands of people where travelling to and if their journey was really necessary.

I measured the queue in the opposite carriage (three lanes wide) at over 20 miles and moving at about 10 mph.

Subject: RE: Global warming
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 06:17 AM

Energy conservation, investment in railways (not bloody HS2), carbon capture and nuclear power. Every home should be insulated as perfectly as possible, including double glazing (which doesn't have to be plastic: I have two lovely double-glazed wooden sash windows) and no home should have an outdated, inefficient boiler and the government should pay. A steeply-graduated engine size tax would be good. The yanks should start to genuinely PAY for their petrol. Much more research into using hydrogen as a fuel. Smash up those wind turbines and solar farms that just make us feel good about continuing to waste energy. Build buildings that have windows that open wide on hot summer days. Tax the barley barons out of existence and let's get back to growing quality crops that are fit for something more than turning into animal feed pellets. There, that's all my friends lost.

Banning cars, foreign holidays and that lovely wine that we can't produce here, as well as avocados, sweet potatoes, lemons, oranges, tea, coffee, almonds (wot? No marzipan on the Christmas cake, not to speak of no raisins or currants in the Christmas pud?? Arrgh!) and so on that have to be imported? Pie in the sky. An excuse for a good old rant by the sanctimonious among us (thing about Mudcat is that anyone can say anything from the supposed moral high ground that they insinuate they're occupying, but no-one can see what you're actually doing).

Something to consider for the foreign hols critics. A full 747, to take one example, does 100 miles per gallon per passenger. That's twice as good as me belting up the A30, M5 and M6 in my Ford Focus for a week in the Lakes. Go figure, Iains!

Subject: RE: Global warming
From: Raggytash
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 06:22 AM

Slight problem there Steve, Barley is the major ingredient of beer.

Subject: RE: Global warming
From: Iains
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 07:06 AM

A full 747, to take one example, does 100 miles per gallon per passenger. That may well be true- but is that journey necessary? you can hardly take a 747or airbus on the weekly shop.

Subject: RE: Global warming
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 07:11 AM

Very true, and I wouldn't want to stop that of course. It isn't just those lovely foreign wines that I consume, as you know, and I'm an aficionado of the finest single malts too. But I doubt whether those huge dusty fields of barley that you see being combined are all producing the finest malting barley. Well over the half the barley grown worldwide is fed to livestock.

Agriculture and transport are approximately equal in terms of greenhouse gas emissions, both slightly outdoing industry. But the biggest contribution is made by the generation of heat and electricity. There's overlapping of categories, of course. Bit of a minefield teasing out all the numbers.

Subject: RE: Global warming
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 07:12 AM

That was to Raggytash.

Subject: RE: Global warming
From: Iains
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 07:24 AM

But the biggest contribution is made by the generation of heat and electricity. Not helped by importing biofuel in order to be green

https://www.carbonbrief.org/uk-now-burning-33-of-worlds-wood-pellet-imports
and bio diesel

http://www.worldwatch.org/node/5861

Going green is quite obscene!

Subject: RE: Global warming
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 07:32 AM

Its hot.
Heat hurts everything
Even Halloween
is hotter
kids in costumes
scream for water

no more Frankensteins
no more mummies
now its swim suits
and T shirt zombies

Subject: RE: Global warming
From: Stu
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 08:30 AM

"That's twice as good as me belting up the A30, M5 and M6 in my Ford Focus for a week in the Lakes."

A false equivalence, if you don't mind me saying.


The key to dumping hydrocarbons, which is what we need to do and quickly, is in energy storage so we can capture all this free energy we've finally cottened on to. In this respect Elon Musk might just save the planet, even as he initiates the trashing of another.

Subject: RE: Global warming
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 09:55 AM

It isn't possible to make a true equivalence, Stu, as all sorts of secondary factors need to be taken into account. The point is that scrapping all aircraft wouldn't make much difference. You still have to cart stuff around the globe, including people. The last I heard, shipping was by far the most polluting (in terms of dirty emissions) and inefficient mode of transport. If the beef is simply against brain-dead tourists taking cheap foreign holidays, then let's hear it. Don't forget to tell us what you'd do about all those countries whose economies are heavily reliant on tourism. Some of them already contain the poorest regions in the west such as Sicily, Portugal, Greece and much of southern Spain, all totally stuffed and totally destabilised without tourism, whatever you think of it. I'm not trying to justify Easyjet or Ryanair or Ford Focuses. As a matter of fact, in terms of fuel usage per passenger, the budget airlines, which have fleets of the most modern planes and which jam people in (tell me about it), are easily the most efficient flight providers. Just describing the way the world is, that's all, and suggesting that we talk about real solutions, not things that will never happen. No-one is ever going to ban air travel, ban cars or make the yanks pay properly for their gas.

Subject: RE: Global warming
From: Rapparee
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 10:00 AM

If you disbelieve in Global Warming and Climate Change, visit the Arctic.   Then visit the Antarctic. In the Arctic, talk to the people: Yupik, Inuit, Icelander, Norwegian, Finn, Sammi, Swede, Siberian. You'll come away with your mind changed, and will have seen some things that are disappearing.

If you're in the States and can't swing the trips I mentioned, go to Glacier National Park and ask how many glaciers are left there. Or visit Alaska. You don't need a passport to do either or both of these.

Subject: RE: Global warming
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 10:09 AM

If you're in the States and can't swing the trips I mentioned, go to Glacier National Park and ask how many glaciers are left there. Or visit Alaska. You don't need a passport to do either or both of these.
That's encouraging extra flights, or sea-trips.
If you're in one of the southern mainland states you need either air/sea transport, or a passport to get to Alaska. (as I understand it)

Subject: RE: Global warming
From: Stu
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 10:26 AM

Crikey, that's a lot to extrapolate from my comment; I can't recall mentioning tourism in Sicily.

Energy storage. Sort that, and everything changes.

Subject: RE: Global warming
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 10:53 AM

I wasn’t extrapolating just from your comment, Stu; I was just having another think about stuff I like doing, such as going to Spain, Italy or Portugal by EasyJet. I can give you the name of an amazing gelateria in Lecce, Puglia, if global warming gets you overheated. Congrats to Iceland for getting to the World Cup Finals next year, skarpi. They’ve shown the world how football SHOULD be organised in a country. But next time you play England can we settle for a draw, please?

Subject: RE: Global warming
From: Iains
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 01:47 PM

"The last I heard, shipping was by far the most polluting (in terms of dirty emissions) and inefficient mode of transport."
Dept Transport 2002
Truck       $0.37ton/mile
Rail       $0.03ton/mile
Air         $4.63ton/mile
water       $0.10ton/mile

Emissions ton/mile
- Air cargo - 0.8063 kg of CO2 per Ton-Mile
   - Truck - 0.1693 kg of CO2 per Ton-Mile
   - Train - 0.1048 kg of CO2 per Ton-Mile
   - Sea freight - 0.0403 kg of CO2 per Ton-Mile
   - Zeppelin - 0.0887 kg of CO2 per Ton-Mile
While it is true bunker fuel is heavy oil and squirts out multiple pollutants the values have to be considered in terms of ton/miles of freight shifted.

Refining bunkering oil would seem a sensible way forward but would require international agreement because obviously there is a cost implication." Sulfur and nitrogen compounds emitted from ships oxidize in the atmosphere to form sulfate and nitrate. Emissions of nitrogen oxides, carbon monoxide, and volatile organic compounds (VOC) will lead to enhanced surface ozone formation and methane oxidation, depleting the ozone"

Subject: RE: Global warming
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 01:59 PM

I did emphasise dirty pollution, not carbon dioxide. Shipping pollutes the water, with oil residues, exhaust, sewage and plastic waste, as well as the air. And where does most of that plastic debris that is such a severe threat to ocean ecosystems come from? 90% of it from shipping.

Subject: RE: Global warming
From: Iains
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 02:45 PM

The major problem with oceanic pollution is that standards vary between countries and policing is haphazard to non existant. The EU has comprehensive controls in place and presumably any EU registered ship could be audited to those standards. However upwards of 40% of freight shipping is under flags of convenience where the regulatory regime is "relaxed" Many offshore rigs separate their waste streams and have a zero discharge policy(all waste is transferred to shore for legitimate disposal), others such as greenpeace have been observed throwing gash over the side. Until there is full international cooperation, detailed legislation and comprehensive auditing, the oceans will continue to be filled with garbage.

Subject: RE: BS: Global warming
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 03:46 PM

I know that shipping comes quite a way down the list when it comes to carbon emissions and that carbon emissions are the main point of the thread. What I’m saying is that in the nirvana world of cutting back on air travel/transport and putting more emphasis on shipping we make another already-severe problem even worse. Less than two weeks ago I was in Funchal (an EasyJet job), sunning meself in the marina while Mrs Steve was in town doing a bit of retail therapy, I was watching three huge cruise ships parked up in the port area, disgorging thousands of passengers. One of them was the largest passenger ship in the world, carrying not much short of five thousand punters and fifteen hundred crew. The other two weren’t that much smaller either. I was just asking meself what happens to all their daily pees and poos. Who knows.

Subject: RE: BS: Global warming
From: Mr Red
Date: 10 Oct 17 - 04:43 PM

An example of the level of ignorance comes from a TV comical chat show.

An expert was asked about the suggestion of painting your roof white. Audience laughter was immediate. The expert explained in words that wouldn't frighten the idiots, so he avoided the word albedo.

The problem with a white roof is keeping it clean. Which is the real reason it would not be popular. Better to fit PV and make use of the energy falling there.

The only way to get society better on board is when the cost of food rises appreciably. It will happen, we pay about 11% of income on food. 50 years ago that was 20%.
As the tropical regions advance north and plants traditional grown suffer less yield in a warmer climate prices will rise. Slowly , but inexorably. We will eat different foods, but will they be as nutritious?
TED Talk predicting tipping point at 10 years and she talks in units of calories, not tonnage. A far more revealing measure

It is an obscene irony that the deniers, even the intelligent ones are relying on science to come to the rescue. It already is - it is warning deaf ears.
Prevention is better than cure. And cure is at best a sticking plaster.

Subject: RE: BS: Global warming
From: Rapparee
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 07:05 AM

Nigel, a citizen of the US doesn't need a passport to visit Alaska as long as s/he doesn't touch the soil of Canada. The Alaska State Ferries (a/k/a the Marine Highway) will take people there from Bellingham, Washington. Ditto for airlines. Flying to visit Glacier NP is possible and you can then rent a hybrid or electric car.

Emissions discussions should, I think, include a discussion of emissions per passanger. If not, all travel will cease. Absolute zero emissions would end use of electricity (them there photovoltaic cells don't make themselves) and put us back to water-powered mills and the troubles that caused your ancestors and mine. No heat, except in places blessed with geothermal features, such as Iceland. Certainly no extractive industries such as mining.

Power usage produces waste, from photosynthesis (oxygen) to automobiles (in manufacture, use, and eventual disposal).

Subject: RE: BS: Global warming
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 07:11 AM

From: Rapparee - PM
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 07:05 AM

Nigel, a citizen of the US doesn't need a passport to visit Alaska as long as s/he doesn't touch the soil of Canada. The Alaska State Ferries (a/k/a the Marine Highway) will take people there from Bellingham, Washington. Ditto for airlines.

Funny, that's exactly what I said:
If you're in one of the southern mainland states you need either air/sea transport, or a passport to get to Alaska

So if you're going overland you need a passport.

Subject: RE: BS: Global warming
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 07:27 AM

Glacier National Park is still there. All the ice has been removed to prevent tourists from slipping and falling on the ice.

Subject: RE: BS: Global warming
From: Mr Red
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 11:35 AM

water-powered mills and the troubles that caused your ancestors and mine in the UK we need to satisfy about 10 authorities when generating electricity from falls in water of more than 2 ft (I believe). There is a problem of diverting water which the largest body of complainers come from houseowners who bought cheap and are now getting flooded, more than the predicted once in 50 years - and still they build. But I can see up the Stroud Valleys dozens of mill ponds that powered industry heareabouts that are doing little more than silting up or wearing at the interface. Cost without revenue! No diversion, flooding defined by the millpond (sorted!) wildlife grateful, why waste it?

I worked with a guy who lived on May Hill Gloucestershire. He had a small water mill and generator of some vintage. But he was searching for repairs to the generator one day and in the winter he remarked that the surface tension on the water was pretty much 100%. No power. Oddly he had a private commercial project to power central heating tech by using the water flow in the pipes to turn a little turbine/generator and power the sensors/transmitter. You can get taps that indicate temperature by coloured LED powered from flow. So I assume he succeeded.

Subject: RE: BS: Global warming
From: Iains
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 02:22 PM

For Steve in answer to your query.cruise ship sewerage treatment.

Mr Red. the national trust recently commissioned a hydro electric scheme in Snowdonia on Hafod y Llan. I think it is about 1900MWh output. Over 40 years ago I was prospecting there mainly for copper. How times change.Hafod y Llan hydro

Subject: RE: BS: Global warming
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Oct 17 - 10:56 AM

There are two stories coming out of California that are widely separated.

1 Possibly a hundred or more people are reduced to white ash as the largest wildfire in CA history sweeps through Napa valley and elsewhere. Thousands of homes are gone in this 200,000 sq acre fire.

2 25% of the US marijuana crop is destroyed along with many vineyards.

Subject: RE: BS: Global warming
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Oct 17 - 11:19 AM

Relax. As long as people continue to vote Republican, there's nowt to worry about.

Subject: RE: BS: Global warming
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Oct 17 - 12:00 PM

So you are a sarcastic sob too, good. I would add that at the Values Voter forum Bannon spoke of replacing Republicans in Congress with the League of Extraordinary Candidates which is composed of his Jew hating alt right fiends. "McConnell we are cutting off your air supply".
Metaphorically like they did with Zyclon B, but with poisonous fake news and goon marches.

BTW I am still getting Russian style fake news ads on this site.

Yep things are hating up, I mean heating up.

Subject: RE: BS: Global warming
From: Rumncoke
Date: 16 Oct 17 - 10:19 PM

I woke up today and the sky was strange - apparently the hurricane brought dust from the Sahara and smoke from the wildfires with it.
Later - once the wind direction changed the sky cleared but until I realised what caused it, it was rather worrying.

Subject: RE: BS: Global warming
From: robomatic
Date: 16 Oct 17 - 10:55 PM

Richard Westbrook Deputy Assistant Administrator of the EPA, from The Newsroom

Subject: RE: BS: Global warming
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Oct 17 - 06:27 AM

GOOD ONE R

This series also did a show on the Gun crazy amerikan Taliban who want to patriotically shoot....Americans/


All NEWS is now BORING, its ALL the same, it even sounds the same, only the names have been changed;

Today we have the biggest [........] to ever have struck [.......]
or
Never before has a [.......] completely destroyed [.......]
or
Our hearts and prayers go out to the victims and families of [......]



15 years go I was called an alarmist troll.
We all live somewhere in time, I can't help that mine is skewed to the future.