just as the tide' last verse

Subject: just as the tide' last verse
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 03:20 PM

We both shook hands and off did steer,
Jack Tar drinks rum and a brandy.
And to keep his shipmates in good cheer
The lady's gold is a-handy.
So along with another pretty maid I'll go
To a public house where the beer do flow,
Success to the maid that will do so
Just as the tide is a-flowing.”

somebody commented to me recently, that this was one of the most reprehensible verses in a traditional song, my reaction was that they clearly were not acquainted with many tradtional songs.
However, I would appreciate other people thoughts and comments

Subject: RE: just as the tide' last verse
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 05:28 PM

somebody commented to me recently, that this was one of the most reprehensible verses in a traditional song, my reaction was that they clearly were not acquainted with many tradtional songs.

I don't altogether understand why one would have to be "acquainted with many traditional songs" in order to find any particular song, or verse, reprehansible.

Subject: RE: just as the tide' last verse
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 06:00 PM

Dear Mr. Sandman....

Please elaborate upon what was shared with you...there are profound differences upon cultures and decades.

You obviously have an insight.

Please share.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Who, What, When, Why, How?

Subject: RE: just as the tide' last verse
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 07:22 PM

Well perhaps the person who commented was thinking of the ending of other traditional songs: this one perhaps has far too polite and happy an ending. That could be construed as reprehensible!
What? She didn't steal his purse, his clothes, his watch, leave him with the pox, present him with an unplanned baby.....? And SHE gave HIM money?
(Tongue firmly in cheek!)

Subject: RE: just as the tide' last verse
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 07:24 PM

Oh, and they "shook hands"? C'mon.....!

Subject: RE: just as the tide' last verse
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Oct 17 - 07:22 AM

The song is just a sailor's fantasy.
She probably cut him dead really, like the girl in Wild Goose shanty.
Why did she change colour in a previous verse though?

Subject: RE: just as the tide' last verse
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Oct 17 - 05:46 AM

Subject: RE: just as the tide' last verse
From: Murray MacLeod - PM
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 05:28 PM

somebody commented to me recently, that this was one of the most reprehensible verses in a traditional song, my reaction was that they clearly were not acquainted with many tradtional songs.

I don't altogether understand why one would have to be "acquainted with many traditional songs" in order to find any particular song, or verse, reprehansibl"
if people have a wide knowledge of traditional songs they are in a position to talk about the repertoire and compare to other songs in the repertoire and compare reprehensibilty," just as the tide " imo is fairly mild in the reprehensibilty stakes compared to many others.

Subject: RE: just as the tide' last verse
From: GUEST,Georgina Boyes
Date: 15 Oct 17 - 09:50 AM

According to the late Tony Rose (whose version of the song was rather fine), the payment in the earlier verse was the result of a misunderstanding. He said the girl's mother had explained that under such circumstances, money should change hands. The girl just made a mistake about who was supposed to hand it over.
As for it's being reprehensible, I think the sailor behaves much better in the whole song than the soldier in "Sweet Nightingale" or the Scottish prisoner in "The Fair Flower of Northumberland".

Subject: RE: just as the tide' last verse
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 15 Oct 17 - 12:04 PM

You are discussing common people from previous centuries here. You only need go back to the 19thc and look at the lives of common people to realise that they lived in conditions just one step above slavery.
The relative crapness of one individual's life compared with another, looked at with modern eyes, is pretty insignificant.

The cliche is that sailors had a wife in every port and I'm sure there was some truth in this. Most people, the girls in the ports, the sailors themselves, existed in conditions we would find appalling today. Survival was the first instinct for those not blinded by religion and other similar control mechanisms.

The only people I would condemn from this period are those in power who abused that power, the common people had few options.

Subject: RE: just as the tide' last verse
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 15 Oct 17 - 06:13 PM

My understanding of the story is that she pays him money to encourage him to be faithful to her, but in vain. He is indeed acting reprehensibly but, as others have said, there are plenty of songs decribing other deeds (factual or fictional) as bad or worse.

Subject: RE: just as the tide' last verse
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Oct 17 - 04:22 AM

Because life was hard and uncertain, sometimes people made up, adapted and sang songs embodying wish fulfillment and/or a bit of bawdy for enjoyment.

Traditional songs are fiction, but fictions in which you can shape reality in any way you want. Studies of individual singers' texts, demonstrate comprehensively demonstrate this.

Subject: RE: just as the tide' last verse
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 16 Oct 17 - 11:29 AM

Okay MOST traditional songs are fictions, but a good percentage are based on real events, shipwrecks, battles, a day's hunting, a murder, disasters, etc.

Subject: RE: just as the tide' last verse
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 17 Oct 17 - 06:33 PM

Dick, I was unaware that there existed a scale of reprehensibility.

In my innocence, I had assumed that it was a binary option ... reprehensible or not.

I had never contemplated assigning differing values of reprehensibility to any song.

Mea culpa.

Subject: RE: just as the tide' last verse
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Jul 20 - 02:12 AM

a beautiful song,imo
Oscar Wilde once remarked somebody who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing. The remarks relating to motives reprehensibilty etc imo ilustrate this point ,how about just enjoying the melody the story the accompaniment and the music

Subject: RE: just as the tide' last verse
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Jul 20 - 02:18 AM

My last post was a critique of the person not on this forum who originally criticised me for singing the song

Subject: RE: just as the tide' last verse
From: Howard Jones
Date: 22 Jul 20 - 04:12 AM

It depends whether you think songs should only show firm moral purpose, or whether they should reflect real life.

Subject: RE: just as the tide' last verse
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Jul 20 - 04:45 AM

r whether they should reflect real life.
You mean like Tam Lin lord randall, broomfield wager,tie the yellow ribbon we all live in a yellow submarine.
Howard years ago you and i were privileged to hear good songs well sung. last year i was booked at a festival and aprt fron nic dow and jack rutter and a couple of othere i was subjected to competently performed forgettable drivel