BS: Telepathy. Experience? Explanation?

Subject: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Ex[lanation?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Nov 17 - 05:46 AM

Donuel said in a recent thread, "There are rational explanations."

I disagree. There is no known way that thoughts can be directly transferred across any distance, and if there was how could they be directed to one specific brain hidden among millions?

And yet most people believe that they have experienced it.
If it does indeed exist could it be taken as evidence that we are more than just physical entities?

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Ex[lanation?
From: Stu
Date: 06 Nov 17 - 06:15 AM

It doesn't exist. There is not one single scrap of empirical evidence for the existence of telepathy, just hearsay. Unless someone can point us all towards a peer-reviewed paper in a scientific journal that proves us sceptics wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Ex[lanation?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Nov 17 - 06:18 AM

Here's the null hypothesis: it's complete and utter bullshit.

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Ex[lanation?
From: Stu
Date: 06 Nov 17 - 06:35 AM

Surely a better null hypothesis would be that it exists?

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Ex[lanation?
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Nov 17 - 06:59 AM

case closed, you have all proven your point exquisitely. proving non existence succeeds again. We should all celebrate another cohesive victory of the closed mind society. You guys won't even agree on measurement let alone mass phenomena. I do not have your well defined scientific telepathy but I predict you will prove what you set out to prove. ;^/ Isaac Newton would be so proud of you.

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Ex[lanation?
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Nov 17 - 07:09 AM

Donuel, I am of a mind to agree with what you said on another thread, that civilisation has robbed us of many of our natural senses, but that is purely an opinion from someone who has experienced mental telepathy several times.....on one occasion proved to a third party.
I have no religious belief but the religious aspect is as valid as any other on this issue.
To say the matter is "bollocks" illustrates ignorance....one has to have had the experience to hold a valid opinion.
I would just add that all my experiences of MT have involved very high stress levels from the person giving out the message.

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Ex[lanation?
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Nov 17 - 07:30 AM

I personally do not know anyone who can coherently describe the Higgs Field let alone a mind field. Yet there are eminent minds who accept the existence of both. Why should a cultural bias determine broader belief? If you have never known of a Global Consciousness Project over the decades, certain opinions are moot.

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Ex[lanation?
From: Stu
Date: 06 Nov 17 - 07:40 AM

Will all respect Donuel, that post verged on incoherence. Are you suggesting that we should not be skeptical when presented with unsupported and unsubstantiated claims or statements?

Also, you can't prove something doesn't exist; if you think telepathy does exist (and it would be great if it did, along with bigfoot, Nessie and ghosts), then the onus is on you to prove it and convince the skeptics. That's how science works. It's really that simple.

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Ex[lanation?
From: Raggytash
Date: 06 Nov 17 - 07:44 AM

"To say the matter is "bollocks" illustrates ignorance....one has to have had the experience to hold a valid opinion"

Do you have to had held your hand in a fire to know it will be burnt?

Do you need to do this in order to hold a valid opinion?

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Ex[lanation?
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Nov 17 - 07:47 AM

There is, in my view, a deeper question but it is worth looking at what we know and dont know.

There is no known mechanism it could work by. That is true, but it is a statement about our knowledge and imagination, not about the existance.

How it could select one brain out of millions? Again, that is about us, in the main. I cannot understand how a bat's navigation works in the presence of many thousands of others all echolocating away. How an individual bat navigates is fine. How the bat works out its signal in the midst of all the other noise I don't understand. But they do.

There have been many hundreds of unbiased scientific attempts to detect telepathy, which have all failed (As well as many more biased attempts). So I think it is pretty clear that either thwre is something inhwritantly limiting about a scientific trial or it is something that cannot be invoked "on demand".

So for my part I am confident it does not exist, but I would be cautious in being too definite about that, because the deeper question is how do we determine knowledge. The scientific method is by far the best we have ever come up with but I do accept it may have a limit in its applicability that we dont fully understand.

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Ex[lanation?
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Nov 17 - 08:51 AM

So far no one has looked at or read about the evidence or data I suggested, however they give opinions while wrapped in a scientific flag based on their level of information/ignorance. While data suggests there is a coherence effect as a result of mass consciousness, independent of our shared notion of time, there is no direct link to the man made invented term called telepathy which I have never used.

I sense the phenomena of shared consciousness is not only quite different from what people suggest as telepathy, it is a profound and accidental phenomena born from an extraordinary evolutionary survival benefit.

Like long strong legs, not everyone has them.

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Ex[lanation?
From: Stu
Date: 06 Nov 17 - 09:30 AM

"While data suggests there is a coherence effect as a result of mass consciousness"

Reference?

Stu the Ignorant.

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Ex[lanation?
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Nov 17 - 09:38 AM

one has to have had the experience to hold a valid opinion.

The "experience" does not validate the opinion - or anything else, for that matter.

"Here's the null hypothesis: it's complete and utter bullshit. "

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Ex[lanation?
From: Jeri
Date: 06 Nov 17 - 10:00 AM

Saying Donuel's post "verged on incoherence" means the same thing as "I didn't quite understand what he said".

All scientific discover begins with a question. If you're saying one shouldn't ask the questions, you don't appreciate science any more than the uber-religious.

Saying "Do you have to had[sic] held your hand in a fire to know it will be burnt?" isn't pertinent. You trust other people's opinions and experience if you know it will be burnt. You're saying exactly the opposite, as in they've told you your hand might be burnt, and you've replied "bollocks".

I've known people who've claimed to have experienced telepathy. I never have, or I've never identified it as such. It certainly doesn't happen on purpose, so it isn't likely its existence will ever be able to be verified and tested. I think that's what bothers some people most, but there are many things that can't be verified and tested. Many things that HAVE been proven to exist are not proven by direct observation, but by observing what they affect, and one has to know where to look. We average folks don't have what's needed to detect and quantify things.

When you tell people to not ask questions, you're blocking. The lack of anyone's ability to investigate things doesn't disprove their existence.

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Ex[lanation?
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Nov 17 - 10:12 AM

The lack of anyone's ability to investigate things doesn't disprove their existence.

Nor does it prove - or even suggest - their existence.   ;>)

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Ex[lanation?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Nov 17 - 10:17 AM

Well I think that, ultimately, everything is potentially testable and verifiable or debunkable. We may currently lack the understanding or expertise, but we can predict that the testability will one day be possible. I pronounced my null hypothesis, which is the challenge in science to bring forth your evidence. If you propose something for which evidence is entirely lacking then you're not very interesting. If the thing you propose has been deliberately put beyond scientific enquiry, then you're a scoundrel. Supernatural deities fall into the second category along with flying spaghetti monsters and fairies at the bottom of the garden, and telepathy treads the perilous tightrope between the two. We can be kind and simply say that those who harbour any of these notions are suffering from delusions. The real world is already so marvellously complex and beautiful and intriguing in its magic. If that isn't good enough for you, then you must be missing out somehow.

By the way, Newton believed in alchemy.

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Ex[lanation?
From: Raggytash
Date: 06 Nov 17 - 10:17 AM

Exactly the point I was making Jeri.

Can I suggest you read Ake's post of 07.09 "To say the matter is "bollocks" illustrates ignorance....one has to have had the experience to hold a valid opinion"

I was merely pointing out you don't have to experience putting your hand in a fire to know it will burn. I can hold a valid opinion without doing that.

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Ex[lanation?
From: Stu
Date: 06 Nov 17 - 10:41 AM

"Saying Donuel's post "verged on incoherence" means the same thing as "I didn't quite understand what he said"."

You are correct, I didn't understand. I have zero objection to asking the question, that's what being a skeptic is; question everything and keep an open mind. As you say, every scientific investigation starts with a question, but you have to formulate that question carefully.

I'm not dissing anyone's belief in any of these things; I believed them myself for a long, long time and all opinions are valid. I have seen UFOs (2010 in the US), had 'psychic' experiences, still visit Glastonbury for the spirituality of the place (not the mystic tat anyone though, which is a shame in a way), heard voices in streams, had a set of Zener cards and seen strange mists in the local forest in broad daylight.

However, I have questioned my own ability to reliably report these occurrences; how objective was I being at the time, what was my frame of reference and the context of these observations? How was I feeling at the time? Ask the uncomfortable questions. I just don't believe hearsay anymore as it's proved so utterly unreliable. That's certainly not to say people are dishonest, but we assign explanations to things we experience and don't understand to make them understandable.


"I think that's what bothers some people most, but there are many things that can't be verified and tested."

Not at the moment for sure, but I remain optimistic we will do one day. There's much that remains unknowable and those if us that put faith in science as being the best system of enquiry into the nature and fundamental truth of our universe stick with it, we'll get there. In the meantime, religion and new age bilge can fill the void, as it has done over the centuries.

It's odd how people who are skeptical of things like ESP, ghosts or bigfoot are portrayed as being unable to understand any other person's viewpoint simply because they disagree with it. It's a familiar trope but it fundamentally misunderstands what many of us are about; we just want to know the truth and go about it the best way we can, using a system devised by countless minds over millenia. If that's ignorance, then count me in. I'm as full of shit as anyone, but like many scientists I know, I'm trying bloody hard to learn.

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Ex[lanation?
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Nov 17 - 10:48 AM

Stu as you said "Will all respect Donuel? that post verged on incoherence. Are you suggesting that we should not be skeptical when presented with unsupported and unsubstantiated claims or statements?
Also, you can't prove something doesn't exist; if you think telepathy does exist (and it would be great if it did, along with bigfoot, Nessie and ghosts), then the onus is on you to prove it and convince the skeptics. That's how science works. It's really that simple."

Stu
I care not for respect (there is no respect due) or whatever onus your agenda demands. But to improve communication and correct reading incoherence, think of my posts as a concentrated essential oil that could be expanded into an entire bottle of eau d'toilet or an outline that could be expanded into a chapter, but I do not care to work that hard or dumb things down.
You can not prove non existence which was my intentional barbed point.

As I wrote "If you have never known of a Global Consciousness Project over the decades, certain opinions are moot." -do your own google-

I also wrote my explanation for the shared consciousness phenomena, "I sense the phenomena of shared consciousness is not only quite different from what people suggest as telepathy, it is a profound and accidental phenomena born from an extraordinary evolutionary survival benefit. Like long strong legs, not everyone has them."



I will go waaaay out on a limb and even name the brain structure in which a receiver mechanism may reside based on reasons it would take several chapters to explain. You could legitimately ridicule this conjecture once you understood the many issues involved and studied the emerging facts.
The brain structure is located at the interface with the Limbic Vesicles and connected to the amygdala.

What and where is the transmitter? I do not think there is one. I think it is inherent in a quantum field itself.

This could be debated but I do not think I have a reasonable debating partner here by the tone of some posts. So far there is no quality ridicule. So I respectively defer to PM if there are those who are still curious.

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Ex[lanation?
From: Jeri
Date: 06 Nov 17 - 10:49 AM

Maybe somebody will try to prove molecules exist, based on what's available to them in their homes. (No, don't)
I think I must be a mass-less particle (I've been reading). Steve, you fail to take time into consideration. Many things aren't testable at the time someone asks the question.
How long was it between when someone posited the existence of molecules and proof of their existence? Telling people, before molecules were able to be observed, that the question of their existence shouldn't be asked, because the answer "has been deliberately put beyond scientific enquiry" is a little bit anti-science. And messed up. The methods to test theories often are found because of the questions.

That doesn't mean they will NEVER be questionable. People who are afraid of questions without answers are just as superstitious and anti-science as deists.

They are still afraid to admit they can't know...now.

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Ex[lanation?
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Nov 17 - 11:25 AM

I think the answer to this Jeri, is like the origin of the universe....we do not NEED to know.....and never will know.

Raggytash many have a valid opinion about his burnt hand based on the crumpled skin, blisters etc, that he will have seen in photos :0(, but he has no valid opinion on something which he has never experienced or recognised. My most vivid experience left me shaken and changed my life forever.....though I still do not have the courage to commit to belief in God.
It involved someone very close to me emotionally,and an horrific accident under extremely stressful circumstances.

I told my wife what I had felt, in detail and within hours the circumstances of the accident were verified by the police and everything which I had told her proved correct.
I think the horrific stress involved had something to do with the telepathy as an action of mine had unwittingly contributed to the accident. I don't think there will ever be any way of testing for these phenomena.....we have lost too many of our senses. Animals have retained senses which we humans are completely ignorant of.

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Ex[lanation?
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Nov 17 - 11:26 AM

Stu wrote far more objectively while I was still writing the previous post. Good for you Stu. My opinion has massed from bits and pieces over 5 decades and is still evolving. A good skeptic admits we can each of us be wrong about something but we don't have to stay wrong.

Few people have had decades to devote attention to esoteric matters without the distraction of religion or time wasting jobs. It is not without sacrifice or defeats but it can be fun for some.

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Ex[lanation?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Nov 17 - 11:30 AM

Failed to take time into consideration?

"Well I think that, ultimately, everything is potentially testable and verifiable or debunkable. We may currently lack the understanding or expertise, but we can predict that the testability will one day be possible..."

Care to tell me how that fails to take time into consideration?

The delicious appeal of science is that enquiry is never-ending. If humans go on for another million years there will still be unresolved mysteries, and that's how it should be. Your molecules example doesn't stand up. No-one suddenly come up with a wacky, unsubstantiated claim that "molecules exist." There were all sorts of pointers already in place in the study of the behaviour of chemicals. Clues to be pieced together, in some cases clues that didn't present hemselves as clues until a brilliant mind unlocked them, tests available to provide corroboration. The whole of our accumulated knowledge about the particles of matter has been gleaned from scientific enquiry, the gathering of evidence, a stepwise process full of checks and balances. Inventions of human imagination that trump the laws of nature can't go through that process. There is simply nowhere to go. One hundred percent of the burden of proof falls on the shoulders of the propagators of those notions. Crowing that I can't prove that you're wrong is tedious, boring and a waste of time. I don't WANT to prove you're wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Ex[lanation?
From: Raggytash
Date: 06 Nov 17 - 11:35 AM

I have never seen a molecule but I know they exist. The basis of your argument is unfounded.

PS I have experienced what some may term telepathy. I put forward the idea that before we could communicate verbally it MAY have been possible for humans to communicate by other methods. A sense, or ability, we have lost, that on occasion resurfaces.

However I have no proof that telepathy exists nor do I have any proof of my "experience" of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Ex[lanation?
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Nov 17 - 11:48 AM

You have been told that a molecule exists, I have experienced telepathy.
Additionally, the burnt hand was YOUR argument.

The religious(supernatural) view which was put forward by Keith in the form of a question, is as valid as your supposition that telepathy is a lost sense.

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Ex[lanation?
From: Raggytash
Date: 06 Nov 17 - 11:55 AM

Have you been at the drink today.

I supposed no such thing. I wondered if such a thing was possible.

The basis of your argument is unfounded because you do not have to experience something to know whether or not it is true.

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Ex[lanation?
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Nov 17 - 11:58 AM

In the case of telepathy you DO, because no one can show you or explain the phenomenon.

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Ex[lanation?
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Nov 17 - 12:07 PM

Very good points by Jeri.

What I have not answered is the Experience part of the question.
What we feel feels discrete but could be something else. A veteran may feel on going mixed feelings but it may be a conflict of obligation, regret and guilt. Feelings may not be what they seem but they are none the less important. Knowing beats GI suicide.

That being said the feeling of knowing something you are not told is ubiquitous. Culturally American people hum the twilight zone theme when describing something they feel they should not be able to know.
It seems this phenomena is being accepted more readily but slowly.

Describing the color red to a blind from birth person may be helpful.
Describing a Symphony to the deaf may be helpful but it is not the experience. To describe knowing beyond the norm does not work well.
If it did Tesla would have explained more of how his mind worked.
He seemed bad at that to me.

These guarded stories should be told. Steve and Greg may not have any but you may and that is OK.

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Ex[lanation?
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Nov 17 - 12:18 PM

btw I have seen electron microscope images of molecules, even atoms.
So have you. Its the time we live in.
Steve are you talking about time regarding the time we live in or knowing something before it happens?

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Ex[lanation?
From: Jeri
Date: 06 Nov 17 - 12:27 PM

Steve, sorry if I picked the wrong one of two opposed points of view in your earlier post. (The one with "scoundrel" in it. Or maybe I misinterpreted that as being a bad thing.)

Don, I don't understand a lot of stuff, but I'm ok with that. A lot of people are uncomfortable with not being able to know. I have this theory that answers are the ends of roads, and it's the questions that make for journeys. Once we find all the road ends, there's no longer a reason to travel. So not knowing is a GOOD thing. Not ASKING is death. Thinking you have all the answers is the same as not asking. That's what some religious zealots do. So end of game, for them.

But I think we can tend to forget what we can't explain, so personal experiences with Weird Shit may be among those things. I remember big weird things, but definitely not little, everyday occurrences, such as worrying about someone for no particular reason, and later finding out they broke their arm. May be a case of making memory fit facts, so it's not real.

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Ex[lanation?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Nov 17 - 12:31 PM

We do know that information is passed between entangled particles in a kind of telepathy, but not how it is achieved.
Does that make it "complete and utter bullshit" Steve?

Both Rag and Ake have experienced telepathy.
Does the absence of an explanation for their experiences make them just bullshitters?

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Ex[lanation?
From: Raggytash
Date: 06 Nov 17 - 12:43 PM

No professor. I was very careful to say I had experienced something that others MAY term telepathy.

I did not say I had experienced telepathy.

Please get your "facts" right.

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Ex[lanation?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Nov 17 - 12:46 PM

"it MAY have been possible for humans to communicate by other methods. A sense, or ability, we have lost, that on occasion resurfaces.
"

My mrs still does...
most mornings as she is waking and just about to get out of bed,
she communicates by smells.... putrid stinky smells...
crudely communicating to me a reminder of what she eat the night before... 😣

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Ex[lanation?
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Nov 17 - 12:58 PM

These guarded stories should be told. Steve and Greg may not have any....

Never said the stories shouldn't be told. Question is, should they be believed without any evidence.

I think not.

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Ex[lanation?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Nov 17 - 01:15 PM

I didn't say it was bullshit. I said that the null hypothesis is that it's bullshit. If there are claimants that telepathy is a true phenomenon, the burden lies entirely with them to show that the null hypothesis isn't true. To do that, they must present evidence. Saying that you saw or experienced something is not in itself the kind of evidence that makes it over the bar in science.

The problem with telepathy is that it is firmly embedded in popular mythology. I'm not really interested enough to find out, but I'm thinking that whole books have been written about it, and we have the internet to add grist to the mill. Such tomes would undoubtedly capture the imagination of many people who love to suspend disbelief (quite a good thing to do occasionally). It's quite possible to persuade yourself that something you've experienced fits nicely with something you've read about which fired up your imagination. Nowt wrong with that. We're human beings, not Spocks. I definitely saw ball lightning one late evening in the early 1980s. I was on my own getting the cat in. Stone cold sober. I hadn't a clue what I was seeing, but on looking it up afterwards I discovered that it exactly fitted in all respects the phenomenon which had been described by many other people. I tried strenuously to discover If anyone else had seen it. No joy. Only me. Now the thing is I hadn't known anything about ball lightning. I didn't go out looking for it having read about it in books or New Scientist. I was an innocent abroad. Anyone who tells you that they can do telepathy has almost certainly read all about it. I'm not interested in it but even I've read all about it. The powers of suggestion are mighty. None of this negates the claims. But it does require that a mountain must be climbed in order to acquire plausible evidence. I have a slightly less lofty mountain to climb with my ball lightning because it is at least a phenomenon that has some scientific credibility. But equally I could have made the whole thing up in order to grab myself a moment in the limelight. I don't expect anyone to believe a word I've said about it. Not because I'm humble but because I wish to act rationally. It's ironic to me that people who claim far less feasible experiences often expect everyone else to take them on board straight away. Raggytash wouldn't do that, I know that. The other bloke, however, does not enjoy the same degree of required diffidence.

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Ex[lanation?
From: robomatic
Date: 06 Nov 17 - 01:26 PM

If 'telepathy' means intentional communication from one brain to another of complex messages without means of speech, then reading and telegraphy constitute valid definitions of telepathy.

If one goes beyond that and requires the communication to be some sort of 'radio' communication between brains without the requirements of energy or the limitations of time or distance, I think it is possible to prove that such communications do not exist. One can set up a scientific experiment with controls and proceed as with any other experiment. I'm pretty sure there are no documented scientific experiments that have been recognized by respectable scientific institutions.

If one is convinced by personal experience of having intuitive knowledge or hunches, that is human. I've experienced them and witnessed others experience them. But it ain't science and it ain't telepathy unless you personally define them as such, and then how far can you take it? Can you convince others, repeat the performance, investigate the phenomena in a rational matter?

How many times are the words "I'm NOT a mind reader" uttered compared to the words "I AM a mind reader."?

I'm tempted to utter the vainglorious words: "Case Closed" but I know damn well it ain't.

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Ex[lanation?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Nov 17 - 02:16 PM

Well I agree with that, with the caveat that science can't really "prove" that telepathy is false. After all, it could be that it simply doesn't happen during your experimentation. In biology we always have to factor in that the mere setting up of the experimental conditions can interfere with the process we're investigating. It's what makes us biologists so philosophical. 😉 The comparison with radio, etc. (which I know you weren't making), is a false equivalence. It will of course be one of those that will be seized on by telepathy zealots as it gives them what is, in their eyes, a legitimate real-science parallel. Poor wee things...

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Ex[lanation?
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Nov 17 - 02:23 PM

"But I think we can tend to forget what we can't explain, so personal experiences with Weird Shit may be among those things. I remember big weird things, but definitely not little, everyday occurrences"

oy is that ever the truth.



Have you ever told a child the truth but they choose to completely ignore it? Maybe its because the question/myth is so juicy and delicious that the mystery is forever better than the truth will ever be.

I remember what the mystery of music was like. Music Theory never lived up to the mystery.

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Ex[lanation?
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Nov 17 - 02:55 PM

We all like to be fed so try the link. It is not a be all end all link, it is not even 1% of the beginning, it is not confirmation of any such nonsense as telepathy. It is only an empirical path for better understanding. If you get as far as the facts you should start to see how shared consciousness is a credible path.

http://noosphere.princeton.edu/

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Ex[lanation?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Nov 17 - 03:30 PM

The religious(supernatural) view

The only thing religion has to do with the supernatural is that it hijacks people fears of the unknown to gain power over them. I have not been religious for many a year but I think there are many things that we do not yet understand. They have fuck all to do with religion. The supernatural will eventual become the natural. As Steve says, there are enough marvels in nature without making them up and the best is yet to come. If we don't blow up the world first.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Ex[lanation?
From: Jeri
Date: 06 Nov 17 - 03:59 PM

Go look up what a Higgs field is. I did. It's really close to what a friend of mine thinks of as God. (Thanks for inspiring me to look, Don.)

The supernatural explanations, the deity, the magic gets classified that way because, if we can't find real explanations, we make them up. Humans love stories. It's part of what makes us humans, and mythology binds us together. Stories aren't bad, until people start refusing to see other possible explanations. Otherwise, they make the world rich

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Ex[lanation?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Nov 17 - 04:04 PM

Rag,
No professor. I was very careful to say I had experienced something that others MAY term telepathy.
I did not say I had experienced telepathy.
Please get your "facts" right.

I did get my facts right. In the JFK thread on 1st November you stated,
"I have experienced "telepathy" which I found disconcerting."

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Ex[lanation?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Nov 17 - 04:14 PM

But Jeri, we make up "explanations" that are themselves infinitely more inexplicable than the things they're supposed to explain. To me, that's irrational.

'Maybe its because the question/myth is so juicy and delicious that the mystery is forever better than the truth will ever be."

This is never true. The reality of the world and the universe beyond, the real truth, is so magical that stories and myth pale beside it. All you have to do is be curious and look. And ignore people who try to sell you dead-end explanations which are no such thing and which are intended to stem your curiosity.

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Ex[lanation?
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Nov 17 - 04:30 PM

"It's ironic to me that people who claim far less feasible experiences often expect everyone else to take them on board straight away. Raggytash wouldn't do that, I know that. The other bloke, however, does not enjoy the same degree of required diffidence."

You may not be surprised to learn Steve, that I do not give a flying fuck what you believe or disbelieve.
I know what I experienced and relayed to my wife,
that to my mind is, if not proof, a verification. That is sufficient for me, sufficient to pull me up short and concentrate the mind.
I do not know what the phenomenon is and suppose that it will be impossible to prove.....but I know one very important thing,   it happened and was verified.

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Ex[lanation?
From: Raggytash
Date: 06 Nov 17 - 04:33 PM

You obviously do not understand the common use of parenthesis.

No surprise really.

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Ex[lanation?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Nov 17 - 05:56 PM

He also doesn't understand what "verified" means.

Wot I said:

"It's ironic to me that people who claim far less feasible experiences often expect everyone else to take them on board straight away."

Akenaton has just beautifully confirmed that by turning very nasty as soon as someone calls him out for peddling bullshit.

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Ex[lanation?
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Nov 17 - 06:44 PM

Being taken on board Steve's good ship Culture Club is no prize. Particularly when facing the out of context quirky quotes of Cpt'n Narcissus.
I am just a Lighthouse and I see few ships steering into Heuristic Harbor. Of course its takes time to study and safely navigate. Take care. Migrating sandbars fool even the best of pilots.

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Ex[lanation?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Nov 17 - 07:04 PM

Translator's note, please.

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Ex[lanation?
From: bobad
Date: 06 Nov 17 - 07:11 PM

A list of prizes offered to anyone who can provide scientific evidence of paranormal abilities including a list of the prizes claimed: Wikipedia

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Ex[lanation?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Nov 17 - 07:26 PM

The motive for providing scientific evidence can't be a money reward. Simple as that.

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Ex[lanation?
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Nov 17 - 07:34 PM

I took on challenges but they were a rip off. I was taken on board a certain former Prince of England yacht docked in Rochester to locate an unnamed item somewhere on board. My very first question was "Is it bigger than a bread box"? I was only told -No questions-. I found the task untenable but still toured the yacht with my hands in my pockets. The unnamed item was a ring inside a bread box in the galley.

It was my grandmother who demonstrated exacting abilities.

Steve if you need a translator, ask a woman.

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Ex[lanation?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Nov 17 - 07:46 PM

My English is generally good enough to obviate the need for a translator, regardless of of your obscurantist meanderings which at the very least demand the kind of mental processing that the amazing spectrum of nuance of our language is supposed to neutralise. Just give it to us straight. I know you can do it.

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Ex[lanation?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Nov 17 - 09:45 PM

Of of?? Ignore ignore.

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Ex[lanation?
From: Ebbie
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 02:48 AM

I keep thinking of an elephant's ability to hear sounds below the range of what a human ear can hear and the dog's ability to hear sounds above what a human ear can hear.

Now, granted that these phenomena are testable and verifiable but what about the days before it was accepted as fact?

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Ex[lanation?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 03:59 AM

Rag,
"I have experienced "telepathy" which I found disconcerting."

There is no dispute about what telepathy means, only if it exists and how.
What is the special telepathy that you have experienced and how does it differ from the telepathy under discussion?

You are just not happy appearing to disagree with Steve about anything, and would rather deny your own experience than be different.
Man up.

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Ex[lanation?
From: Iains
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 04:18 AM

For my twopenn'orth I think the subcosncious can process disparate sources of information and allow two+two to make "five." Some may interpret this ability as telepathy.

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Ex[lanation?
From: Raggytash
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 04:23 AM

The difference is professor is that I do not know if telepathy or "telepathy" actually exists.

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Ex[lanation?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 04:30 AM

Different language once again. It is perfectly clear to me (and I suspect most people) what the parenthesis meant. Standard use of English. The difference between working from home and "working" from home.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Ex[lanation?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 04:46 AM

Raggytash and I had a fair amount of disagreement in the folk club thread and we were not afraid to air it. That was an insulting remark, Keith. You never express any disagreement with members of your tribe here, though quite often their rants and insults must have you clenching your manly buttocks.

Thing about the hearing, Ebbie, is that the pointers to a perfectly scientific explanation were already there. We knew the structure of the mammalian ear and we understood the relationship between frequency and pitch. There was no need to go beyond science to solve the question. It was a matter of intelligent minds piecing together real clues. In order to "prove" telepathy you have to make assumptions to do the heavy lifting that go beyond the laws of nature. One day we may find that we didn't completely understand the laws of nature after all, and that there is a means by which animal tissue can both transmit and receive information across the ether without vision or sound. I'm a bit surprised that such an obvious-sounding phenomenon hasn't been teased out by now, that's all. Like Raggytash, I'm on the fence when it comes to the veracity of telepathy. However, in my case, from the telepathy side all you can see clinging on are the tips of my finger nails. I'm a bit like that with deities and fairies too.

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Ex[lanation?
From: Stu
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 04:48 AM

"we make up "explanations" that are themselves infinitely more inexplicable than the things they're supposed to explain. To me, that's irrational. "

The way humans interpret phenomena they can't understand is partly cultural and also perhaps due the way we've evolved. I was at a zoology conference recently where this was discussed in relation to bigfoot and lake monsters, it's not a new idea and has been floating around for donkeys years but is still interesting and applies to many unexplained phenomena.

Firstly: Cultural. Two thousand years ago, when a bunch of desert tribesmen in the middle east witnessed an event in the sky they described it in terms they understood; wheels of fire. The same event witnessed two millennia later would have been described in different terms: UFO's. Then: telepathy, now quantum fields. Twenty years time: something new.

Second: Evolutionary. In evolutionary terms, we're all still wired for life on the plains and forests of Africa. Our limbic system is on constant alert for predators and we are programmed to see patterns (pareidolia)... many societies have a long history of seeing hairy folk in the woods, beasts in lakes etc.

Now as the man said: I want to believe. Truth is, we are talking about a wide variety of different processes both physical, cognitive and mental that require a very broad range of skills to objectively record and analyse. Luckily we have such a system, but it requires evidence.

Donuel: That link is interesting, but I'm unconvinced (that said, I don't understand the methodology at all so that's surprising). An alternative view here: http://skepdic.com/globalconsciousness.html All seems a little suspicious to me, but I'm used to dealing with fossils and rocks which have a certain physicality about them ;-) I'll read a bit more later.

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Ex[lanation?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 05:16 AM

Interpreting a true phenomenon in terms you could understand is a normal and rational thing for us humans. Wheels and fire really do exist. You can bet that the bloke who came up with that one had mates who were only too happy to pick holes in his notion. They bore the germ of the null hypothesis. Which is precisely how we progress. Take another one, a dragon eating the sun during a solar eclipse. Well it did look like the sun was gradually having a chunk taken out of it, there was little understanding of space and the distance from us of the sun or of its dimensions, and dragons, fantastical as they were in Chinese mythology, were still bilaterally symmetrical beasts and recognisably reptilian. We were making big stretches in order to explain things in those cases but we were still clinging to familiar ideas, no matter how tenuously applied. Rationality was being severely pulled about but it clung on. With deities, fairies and telepathy we have made huge jumps beyond the rational. We have no means of investigating or explaining the phenomena we have invented (pejorative intended). Human imagination and the unending quest for knowledge is at the very centre of our human-ness. Science has made the progress it has by keeping its feet on the ground, standing with arms akimbo and sternly frowning on anyone throwing in the irrational. That'll do me for now.

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Ex[lanation?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 06:08 AM

Rag,
The difference is professor is that I do not know if telepathy or "telepathy" actually exists.

You clearly do believe it exists, but now you are afraid to admit it in case Steve is cross with you.
You said you had experienced it, finding is disconcerting.
You conjectured about how it might have come about;

"Before we could communicate verbally we MAY have had further senses than we one's we acknowledge today, sight, sound, vision, taste, and touch.
Is it possible that before we learned to communicate by these methods we had further abilities that because we no longer use them have deteriorated to the point that they only become apparent on rare occasions."

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Ex[lanation?
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 06:09 AM

" It's ironic to me that people who claim far less feasible experiences often expect everyone else to take them on board straight away. Raggytash wouldn't do that, I know that. The other bloke, however, does not enjoy the same degree of required diffidence."

The quote is correct, it consists of the last three sentences from Steve's post.....6th Nov   1:15pm.

The implication being, that I expect everyone else to agree with me regarding the phenomenon of "Mental Telepathy", which I put in parenthesis to acknowledge that everyone may not agree with that designation. As I said, it is of no interest whatsoever to me whether Mr Shaw agrees or disagrees.

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Ex[lanation?
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 06:19 AM

Steve for a guy who repeatedly says he doesn't care about this subject, you are animated. I have said there is no classic telepathy but there is shared consciousness. I have given links to 20 year old ongoing scientific experiments in measuring coherence around mass events. I am not here to convince anyone of anything nor is that proof of anything Stu.

Almost 60 years ago I was in an experiment with the drug Telepathine.
It worked with descriptions of photos between 2 people.
Feedback from others reinforced that there is such a phenomenon.
I still think it is something else.

And Steve, no I can not turn off dyslexia but I can hide certain aspects. I will not hide. Why do you and Robo have discomfort with this factor? You can't help making fun of the different because you see your way as the best way.

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Ex[lanation?
From: Raggytash
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 06:28 AM

Do you really not understand the word MAY.

Do you really not understand the word possible.

Do you really think Steve is "cross" with me and even if he was do you think I would give a monkeys.

PS I would think Steve, like myself, had a good chuckle at that. so thank you from us both. If you wonder how I know Steve had a chuckle, he told me ....................... "telepathically"

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Ex[lanation?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 07:02 AM

I knew you were going to say that...

:D (tG)

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Ex[lanation?
From: Raggytash
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 07:24 AM

Yes, you probably did, but that has nowt to do with "telepathy"

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Ex[lanation?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 07:40 AM

Rag,
Do you really not understand the word MAY.
Do you really not understand the word possible.

Yes. You were offering an explanation of how telepathy as you experienced it "may" "possibly" have evolved, so that now it " only become apparent on rare occasions."

What now only becomes apparent on rare occasions Rag?

Last week you clearly believed that you had experienced telepathy.
Now that Steve is ridiculing anyone who takes telepathy seriously you pretend not to.

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Ex[lanation?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 08:06 AM

I believe there are some things that we cannot currently explain using our current scientific models. We will be able to eventually. One of these could be what some people refer to as "telepathy". Please note the quote marks. To those of you who do not understand it indicates that I am using someone else's terminology. Just like Raggy did on the other thread.

I have no worries what Steve or Raggy will say because I know they are reasonable human beings and they speak the same language as most people on here. I do have issues with those who go out to pick fights and create issues out of nothing so they can be the centre of attention and get people to jump through hoops. There is no point in progressing these points any further so I do hope that no one expects me to explain what most people already understand.

I suggest that everyone else on the thread observes the same guidelines and ignores the man behind the curtains trying to pull the strings.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Ex[lanation?
From: Raggytash
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 08:15 AM

Re-read my posts professor and this time read exactly what I said and not what you think I said, please try not to reinterpret my words.

Having said that I knew you would try........ Wow I must be "telepathic"

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Ex[lanation?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 08:20 AM

I am not ridiculing anybody. I've put forward some carefully-considered points explaining why I think that belief in telepathy is irrational. I'm agnostic about telepathy but that doesn't mean I'm astride the fence with my nuts impaled on a top nail. I've left open the possibility (remote in my opinion) that new laws of nature may be discovered that would bring telepathy into the tent, but first we need corroborated evidence that it seems to happen at all, and I haven't heard of any. Someone coming on here telling me that it's true because he's done it is not good enough for me by a long chalk (especially considering that the man who claims it has a history here of spouting multiple delusions). I specifically told you that you don't have to believe a word I say about ball lightning and I don't expect you to, though there is far more corroboration for it than there is for telepathy. And akenaton, you got all sweary and nasty when I demurred at your claim.

Donuel, having dyslexia doesn't oblige you to meander around and write in riddles. Mrs Steve dealt with dyslexic children for many years so I'm not completely ignorant of its effects. I suggest we move on from that one.

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Ex[lanation?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 08:34 AM

I think there are things we know that we don't know how we know. Take the crossword puzzle phenomenon - you are stuck on some corner, you go away, you come back, it's obvious, because your brain has kept working on it without you. There are ways to know things about people that they don't know how you could have known it, yet nothing supernatural occurred.

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Ex[lanation?
From: Ed T
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 08:48 AM

An intresting "ideas" article on consciousness and quantum mechanics.



Consciousness, some science ideas ?

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Ex[lanation?
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 09:19 AM

Steve do not tell me how to be.
Steve you are a sieve.
What ever does not pass through your prejudiced screen
you reject by the dictates of your narcissistic bigotry.
You are not the agnostic you claim to be.
You are culturally and psychologically biased.
Your science based filter is pathetic at best.

I do hope you take this in the friendliest spirit intended.
Afterall this could describe many.
Being we centered is more illuminating than self centered.
As you say, Shall we move on now?


When a person asks the same question for many decades there are bound to be emerging answers. I have told you what they are so far but you can not even recall because you do not care. So I suspect your agenda is less open minded than Stu.

btw Iains 2+2=5 is closer to my thinking.


Steve's requested dumbed down translation;

While I do not expect you to change a whit remember there is nothing special or desirable, as you say, to coming on board your boat or being allowed in your tent etc. We are each of us just one of many.
I see only a few people continuing to educate themselves.
Steve you believe you already know it all and have not educated yourself one step beyond what you already believed. You have crashed into your own old drifting mindsets.

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Ex[lanation?
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 09:21 AM

You clearly do believe it exists,

Now The Professor has the power to read minds! That's almost like telepathy, innit?

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Ex[lanation?
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 09:25 AM

Ed - Excellent!

That's what I am talking about.
There are even quantum structures in our nervous system that have only recently come to light.
While we do not know the whole story this is THE promising path.

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Ex[lanation?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 09:27 AM

There, Donuel! You said all that clearly enough, didn't you? I knew you could do it!

Just a tad defensive, perhaps....? 😂

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Ex[lanation?
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 09:33 AM

Things we don't know how we know
quote Mrrzy

Ain't it the truth.
Trust in the unconscious
Its more genius than the rest of us.

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Ex[lanation?
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 09:35 AM

Snobs were never my cup of tea steve.

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Ex[lanation?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 09:42 AM

I love your new-found clarity, Donuel.

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Ex[lanation?
From: Jeri
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 09:44 AM

I guess you have all grown tired of the subject, and are simply fighting now. If it stays personal, the thread likely will get closed. I was enjoying it until it started being about various posters. Oy.

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Explanation?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 09:45 AM

That is an interesting article, Ed. We're quite a long way from the heart of the matter though.

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Ex[lanation?
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 09:50 AM

drift 1.1

There are means to allow the unconscious mind to do your writing for you.
It is usually more poetic.

Dreams also allow some unconscious imagery to surface.
I remember a dream at the age of 24 in which I encountered myself at my current age. I was struggling with dyslexia at the time.
My older self was dressed in white and said "I'm surprised how you got here" younger self;"What can you tell me"?
I said, "YOU know more than you need to know!."

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Ex[lanation?
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 09:55 AM

We are closer to the heart of the matter than ever regarding 'explanation'.

or Ex[lanation.

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Ex[lanation?
From: Ed T
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 10:08 AM

What I liked about the article I linked, is that no claim was made which could close minds to future research, (as the field matures). Ideas like this-outside of traditional thinking, but linked to cutting-edge science, often stimulates big steps in scientific research.

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Ex[lanation?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 10:09 AM

Good science and lots of frustration in there, Ed.

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Ex[lanation?
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 10:13 AM

reprise:

I will go waaaay out on a limb and even name the brain structure in which a receiver mechanism may reside based on reasons it would take several chapters to explain. You could legitimately ridicule this conjecture once you understood the many issues involved and studied the emerging facts.
The brain structure is located at the interface with the Limbic Vesicles and connected to the amygdala.

What and where is the transmitter? I do not think there is one. I think it is inherent in a quantum field itself.
dh

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Ex[lanation?
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 10:48 AM

We all have 2 fluid filled vesicles at the center of our brain that is roughly 10% the volume of our brain. That is an enormous structure especially when compared to a dog which >1% but dolphins and whales are closer to us and exclusively have very large acoustic 3D vision centers in the forebrain.

This fluid emptiness in our brains is not a shock absorber, it is a sense organ listening to the universe like Whales listen to the sea.

Quantum tubular sense 'pick ups' reside at the fluid-brain interface and have nerve fibers that connect to the Amygdala half way before the sight centers in our brain. It is central to our foresight.

The quantum field requires an emptiness in contrast to somethingness to be sensed. This is oversimplified for consumption but I hope you get the idea.

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Ex[lanation?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 10:53 AM

Anybody seen the movie The Gift, I think it was called, about a woman who knows her smalltown people really, really well, so she can do the Psychic thing just by intuition, but she dresses it up for money. Along comes a crime and the cops come to her for help finding the body and she has to say No, I've been faking all these years...
...but then it turns out she WAS psychic! And she starts getting flashes of where the body is, and all kinds of shenanigans ensue! Great movie, and that is how I think it works, when it appears to work.

I had a really good friend in college who often shared a mind with me, we would have the same dreams though we weren't sleeping together, or suddenly simultaneously remember something and whirl around as we were walking away from each other, and so on. Nothing supernatural, we just knew each other really, really well.

On the other hand my twins shared a mind when they were small... One baby cried and fisted his stomach, the other farted, the first stopped crying and writhing. Whose stomach ache was it? Also I could set them as schoolchildren to rock-paper-scissors and they would do the same shape, over and over again, for over half an hour, reliably. It was a great way to have some time of my own, find something they cared about who did it, and get them to pick one that way. They have outgrown it. But it WAS there, the communal/hive mind. Especially since one had motor deficits and the other was motor-gifted, they would do stuff together that took the brains of one and the brawn of the other, when they were preverbal. We called them collectively The Beast. They once took their playpen apart, moved it to another room, and put it back together, with them in it, before they were 1. They could not have colluded or collaborated, but they worked as a team.

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Explanation?
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 11:19 AM

Wow

One day the word telepathy will become as quaint as the word ice box and will fade away. Until then we can extend our senses with acceptance and training of our senses.

I feel bad for people without a sense of smell as well as those without foresight or shared consciousness.

I have said before that I stand in awe of the human who has maximized every sense we are capable of. no Steve it isn't you ":^)

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Explanation?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 11:51 AM

One of the interesting phenomena of experimenting with strong opiated cannabis and magic mushrooms back in our late teens,
was the point of doped stupor when vision / perception with eyes open of shut
started to focus and fragment into pixelated / pixilated cell-like patterns within patterns within patterns..... etc.. etc...
until slumping into stoned dreamy oblivion...

At best they were extrordinarily fun explorative 'trips'... but to where and how far....????

At worst, we were witnessing from the inside the scary withering and death of our young bright brain cells as they fried and popped into burnt out particles...????

But back in the 1970s, prevailing counter culture guides to better alternative lifestyles
convinced us of the essential requirement for drug experiences to expand minds and open up consciousness...

irresepective of irresponsible and negligent long term effects on our young developing minds...

Now, after an adult lifetime of diminished intelligence, I count the costs rather than the benefits...

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Explanation?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 11:54 AM

The fact that acid increases apparent psychic phenomena weighs in favor of it being your brain being smarter than you.

This ties into religion. If you are better at predicting things because of superior intuition, and you don't know what intuition is and neither does anybody else yet, both you and everybody else may think that your predictions are supernatural, rather than intuitive, in origin.

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Explanation?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 11:54 AM

Wait... we say Icebox.

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Explanation?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 12:26 PM

I've never taken any of those naughty drugs, not even cannabis, ever in my whole life, not once. I smoked like a chimney until I was 26 then suddenly stopped, 40 years ago now (I know the exact minute on the exact date) and not one whiff of any nicotinic substance has passed my lips ever since. I do like my booze, though, but never until the sun's below the yardarm. I suppose alcohol is a bit mind-altering, though at least it's a graduated thang.

I'll stick to the baby steps of real science, Donuel. I do enjoy leaps of imagination myself but I always try to strictly recognise where they overstep the bounds of science. Ed's article was full of expressed frustration and humility. And real science without uncalled-for assertions. And the best way I know of maximising all my senses is to go outside where there are trees and birds and insects on a sunshiny and breezy summer's day, lie on my back in a patch of flowers and yield to the beauty of reality, all truths universal. I want to attain the nuttiness of the truly sane (thanks to Lawrence D. Hills for that exquisite idea). Mrs Steve thinks I've achieved the nuttiness. One more step...

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Explanation?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 12:47 PM

Greg,
Now The Professor has the power to read minds!

No, just words.
Rag said he had "experienced" "telepathy" and been "disconcerted" by the "experience."
Also he suggested why "telepathy" may " only become apparent on rare occasions."

But that was last week.

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Explanation?
From: Raggytash
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 01:10 PM

No professor, yet again I said I had experienced (note no parenthesis) what other people may term "telepathy" not telepathy.

At no stage have I ever said that I have "experienced" or even experienced telepathy.

I cannot recall saying I was "disconcerted" by it but can't be arsed to go back and find that particular post, and if I had been disconcerted by it I do not think I would have used parenthesis.

Are you really so simple that you cannot differentiate the things everybody else can.

Don't bother to reply I already know the answer.

BUGGER !! There I go again I must be telepathic!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Explanation?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 01:13 PM

Tobaccoo *is* a naughty drug, dude.

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Explanation?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 01:37 PM

Well that's true, but when I said "naughty" I was thinking more of the illegal ones. When it comes to naughty in the broader sense, as in seeing people off, tobacco has no rivals. It's changing in some countries. Good thing too.

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Explanation?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 01:42 PM

What about deja vus? Do they count as great mysteries, up there with telepathy?

(And I'm not doing the accents as I don't want to see any more spurious question marks).

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Explanation?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 01:43 PM

What about deja vus? Do they count as great mysteries, up there with telepathy?

(And I'm not doing the accents as I don't want to see any more spurious question marks).

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Explanation?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 01:44 PM

I've just had a deja vu...

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Explanation?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 01:53 PM

probably not quite as disconcerting as a deja poo...???

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Explanation?
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 02:01 PM

Who do you think points to where science should look or take baby steps? People like us.
It takes science fiction to inspire science fact. ex. Star Trek



My credo is that organic beats all. Like my treatment of MS with clonal myelin cells or a cure for diabetes type 1.
Cells do a better job than drugs or hardware.
For example islets of Langerhans cells regulate insulin and sense how much. They are happiest in a pancreas but a pancreas like environment will do. Human tests begin this year and inside of 3 years we all will have a cure for diabetes. Fortunately my wife is in charge of what research is best economically.


Steve would merely say "there is no cure for diabetes".
Steve you are a parasite of science and apparently contribute nothing but stale skepticism. You have never said but perhaps you are a better musician.

In contrast I contribute. TOOT ! <--(my own horn)

btw not to betray Ake, but although he wears the black hat and I wear the white hat he too is extremely dyslexic so let him learn. Intellect matures very slowly. You know in some circles, dyslexia is a gateway to genius. Sounds dangerous huh?

It seems natural that Mushrooms catalyze imagination much like LSD but in an organic way. They both diminish inhibition of neuronal and dendrite cells in unison like stepping on the accelerator.



Steve, get a haircut, its over an inch.

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Explanation?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 02:10 PM

And Donuel, get a life. Over and out.

.............................................................................................................................

Deja fu: the weird feeling that you've been kicked in the head this way before...

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Explanation?
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 02:22 PM

Every good story needs a villain.
I chose Steve as the foil.
Usually this backfires
No harm intended.

One day I hope to be as visionary as Jules Verne, but for our tomorrow.
Then I will have a life, but I'll likely be dead.

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Explanation?
From: Ed T
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 02:57 PM

"It takes science fiction to inspire science fact. ex. Star Trek"

An interesting thought , as to the symbotic relationship between the broad expanses of real experience versus what reative minds can come up with through fiction. This could be expanded to other aspects of life, such as the arts ,music, and news and entertainment, - all seem to have a symbolic and fruitful relationship to stimulate (and entertain) us .

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Explanation?
From: Ed T
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 02:59 PM

Oops, meant creative minds (naturally creative, or otherwise).

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Explanation?
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 06:00 PM

Hey you are on a roll - even creatine minds work
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/evolutionary-psychiatry/201202/your-brain-creatine

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Explanation?
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 09:59 PM

I just watched the Gift movie. A couple corrections. She never denied her ability. The cast was all A+ list. What rings true are the attitudes the accusations and the suspicions. The ending is spooky beyond anything in my experience.

The casting director was a genius.

I have posted heavily on the explanation side in order to counter the proposition that there is no mechanism that is capable of the phenomenon.

What remains is the experience side. I suppose there is still a prejudice in our society regarding esp and old fashioned judgmental attitudes so some may be squeamish. Rarely the experience is heroic but is often memorable. The Mrzzy twins story is great.
- the biggie
The best minds in our Pentagon put the odds of an atomic N. Korean American War at 20% to 50-50. I am getting nothing like that. Compared to personal 9-11 pre cognition I would say we are safe from the idiots somehow. Despite that, Trump is doing all the classic run up to war rhetoric including the dead baby in a NK bucket speeches.
I think the S. Koreans themselves want desperately to be rid of the Donald.
- the small stuff
The act of driving naturally engages our foresight prowess.

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Explanation?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Nov 17 - 03:32 AM

Your whole post from last week Rag,

Raggytash - PM
Date: 01 Nov 17 - 05:37 PM

I have experienced "telepathy" which I found disconcerting.

However I have tried to rationalise the sensation and I came up with this.

Before we could communicate verbally we MAY have had further senses than we one's we acknowledge today, sight, sound, vision, taste, and touch.

Is it possible that before we learned to communicate by these methods we had further abilities that because we no longer use them have deteriorated to the point that they only become apparent on rare occasions.

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Explanation?
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 Nov 17 - 04:14 AM

How many ******* times do I have to point out that I used the term "telepathy" not telepathy.

This is the LAST time I will resort to telling you I used the term "telepathy" not telepathy.

Every single poster, except you, understands the use of parenthesis. I cannot be held responsible for your stupidity.

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Explanation?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Nov 17 - 04:51 AM

I said before, Raggy, ignore the man behind the curtain. Don't let him pull your strings. Everyone else does understand :-)

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Explanation?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Nov 17 - 05:12 AM

You have your Keith, I have my Nigel, Raggytash. Is there a child psychiatrist in tbe house...?

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Explanation?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Nov 17 - 05:28 AM

Keith? Nigel? Luxury! I have ake...

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Explanation?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Nov 17 - 05:44 AM

At least you can get tablets for akes, Dave, though beer works very well too...

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Explanation?
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Nov 17 - 06:03 AM

The US military poured millions into the whole phenomena in the 70s and 80s. (I was there) They don't spend a penny anymore. They can prove global warming but not telepathy. So whatever the raggytash crises is about relax there is no provable phenomenon beyond free speech.
A movie about this is called 'the men who stare at goats' and is very funny but true.

A Russian take over of internet social media however is verified.
Meanwhile our dreams hopes and fears are still our own.


PS Steve is a good sport (to a point) and so 'cultured' he may as well be a pearl.

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Explanation?
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 Nov 17 - 06:06 AM

I ain't got no crisis Donuel, I've got a pain in the neck, or sometimes it's a pain in the arse, but no crisis.

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Explanation?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Nov 17 - 06:23 AM

Every pearl started off as a piece of shite that got into the shell. The allusion isn't lost in me, Donuel! 😂

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Explanation?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Nov 17 - 06:25 AM

Lost on me.

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Explanation?
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Nov 17 - 06:31 AM

Of course it is and it isn't. In a 3D world we can only see one side at a time.

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Explanation?
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 Nov 17 - 06:33 AM

Not if you've got mirrors

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Explanation?
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Nov 17 - 06:45 AM

True but it all goes backwards.

In a 4D world you CAN see both sides directly simultaneously.
We can do this only in our mind after a passage of time.

Ever watch TV in a mirror, all British cars suddenly become American and visa versa.

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Explanation?
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 Nov 17 - 06:54 AM

No chance Donuel, the Americans don't build Rolls, Bentleys, Jaguars.

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Explanation?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Nov 17 - 07:53 AM

the Americans don't build Rolls, Bentleys, Jaguars.

I don't think the British do any more do they? :-(

Mind you, best British car I ever had was a Reliant Supervan III - Like Del Boy's but Turquoise instead of yellow. 50+ MPG and could do 70 fully laden. If you wanted to risk it :-)

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Explanation?
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Nov 17 - 08:18 AM

I enjoy the sandbox but over the course of a month I notice a rise and fall in future insight. When I had migraines it was very low. Nowadays it is not as low in the cycle up and down.

A last word regarding rationality. Spock was a character who was too rational. Kirk was irrational in Spock's eyes. I too recognize I have made big decisions on a seemingly irrational basis, as in who to marry. It worked for me. Love... kinda irrational.

While this topic is my bailiwick I have to get back to decluttering before the construction project.

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Explanation?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Nov 17 - 08:24 AM

Dave, I once parked up my Nissan Micra in Bristol for half an hour. When I got back, somebody had nicked three out of my four dustcaps.

Join the list of suspects...

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Explanation?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 08 Nov 17 - 08:26 AM

The Soviets did a LOT of research on parapsych and never got a replicable thing.

Who was it in the scifi world who said if you shoot at people the one who's a teleport will get out of the way? Or something? I think it was Niven.

Ever reread old scifi like Heinlein or Asimov from before computers, and they are on Mars or something calling their slide rules "slipsticks" and having math geniuses to do the rapid calculations?

Humans aren't rational. Remember the second episode with Mudd?

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Explanation?
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 Nov 17 - 08:41 AM

You only need two dust-caps for a three wheeler.




Cor Dave, we got away with it ......... ps my unicycle looks great with a dust-cap

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Explanation?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Nov 17 - 08:57 AM

Mudd reprises his role in 'Discovery'. I'm saying nowt else.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Explanation?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Nov 17 - 10:09 AM

Right then, here's a test for any mudcatters who think they may have special esp 'abilities'...

How many fingers am I holding up...??? 😜

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Explanation?
From: Jeri
Date: 08 Nov 17 - 10:17 AM

None. You were typing at the time.

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Explanation?
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 Nov 17 - 10:22 AM

I'd guess at two ........... can't think why!

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Explanation?
From: gillymor
Date: 08 Nov 17 - 10:29 AM

"holding up" what?

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Explanation?
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 Nov 17 - 10:32 AM

Can't think why ............. of course it must be telepathy!!

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Explanation?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Nov 17 - 10:49 AM

Test 2:

a] what colour underpants am I wearing ?
b] what colour were they when purchased brand new ?

[Date stamped photographic evidence available upon request, for purposes of proper reliable scientific verification...]

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Explanation?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Nov 17 - 11:09 AM

I don't even know what colour underpants I'm wearing. I must be wearing some as Wednesday isn't commando day... I don't even know what colour our bedroom carpet is unless I go upstairs to have a look. It's only been down eight years...

Did you know that Jeremy Kyle always goes commando? He didn't tell me that. I gleaned it by telepathy...

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Explanation?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 08 Nov 17 - 12:22 PM

I was SO happy to see that reprobate!

Yeah, I have trouble with those What Is Your {something} name where one is the color of your underwear... I have a lot of one-name aliases.

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Explanation?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 08 Nov 17 - 12:23 PM

Or is this more like, anyone with telekinesis, raise my hand?

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Explanation?
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Nov 17 - 12:30 PM

Anyone with telekinesis give me a hand













job

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Explanation?
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Nov 17 - 02:16 PM

From: beardedbruce - PM
Date: 24 Apr 14 - 09:55 AM

Sonnet 19/05/01????????????????????????DLIII

????????A perfect day for planting, with no sun
????????To burn life from small leaves; The promise of
????????Water to sustain new growth. Here's one
????????Of Nature's subtle gifts, to show her love.
????????You plant sweet herbs for future use, and weed
????????Unwanted growth, but know a use for all
????????The garden grows. Four senses gardens feed,
????????And birds, who nourish fifth with evening call.
????????The breeze brings cool contentment, as the day
????????Slides into night. You have the future sown.
????????In time, all that you plant will grow, to pay,
????????With interest, labor done by harvest grown.
????????With laughter in eyes, and smile touching cheek,
????????You have in your garden all I might seek.
.......................................................

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Explanation?
From: meself
Date: 08 Nov 17 - 03:05 PM

Here's a little something for your amusement, since the discussion seems to be crumbling.

Yesterday, I had a student here for tutoring. While he was doing some autobiographical writing, I was reading a bit of the novel A Fine Balance by Rohinton Mistry - until I came to a sentence ending, "... the soft rains in Dubai". Dubai? I'd forgotten that the protagonist had some connection with Dubai. The flow of my reading having been thus interrupted, I took a glance at the writing my student was doing - and saw that he had just finished writing the word "Dubai" on his page. I was startled, particularly as I had had no intimation that this student, locally born and bred, had any experience with that part of the world.

End of story. These funny little things happen to me a lot. It's a mistry (ha, ha).

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Explanation?
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Nov 17 - 03:34 PM

Desperado, You know politics 'll drive you crazy
It will make you plain lazy and attack all your friends
Oh, you'll get angry
I know that you got your reasons
These things that are pleasin' you
Can hurt you somehow
Don't you draw the King of Trump, boy
He'll beat you if he's able
You know the King of Trump was not your best bet
Now, it seems to me some fine things
Have been laid upon your table,
But you only want the ones that you can't get
Desperado, oh, you ain't gettin' no younger
Your pain and your hunger, they'll Brexit you home
And freedom, oh freedom, well that's just some people talkin'
Your prison is walking through this world all alone
Don't your feet get cold in the winter time?
The sky won't snow and the sun won't shine
It's hard to tell the night time from the day
You're losin' all your highs and lows;
Ain't it funny how the feeling goes away?
Desperado, why don't you come to your senses?
Come down from your fences; open the gate
It may be rainin', but there's a rainbow above you
You better let somebody love you, before it's too late


Songwriters: Glenn Frey / Don Henley

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Explanation?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 08 Nov 17 - 10:05 PM

Whaddaya think this is, a music forum?

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Explanation?
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Nov 17 - 10:41 PM

bearded bruce wrote such verdant pastoral poetry compared to now, its as though he became radicalized. There is a way home.

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Explanation?
From: Ed T
Date: 09 Nov 17 - 11:28 AM

"Over the last 70 years, researchers have tried to gauge the effect on an individual of having an unusual name. It is thought that our identity is partly shaped by the way we are treated by other people - a concept psychologists call the "looking-glass self" - and our name has the potential to colour our interactions with society. Early studies found that men with uncommon first names were more likely to drop out of school and be lonely later in life. One study found that psychiatric patients with more unusual names tended to be more disturbed."



Is a name important??

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Explanation?
From: Ed T
Date: 09 Nov 17 - 11:31 AM

Brain-to-brain interfaces: the science of?telepathy?

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Explanation?
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Nov 17 - 12:24 PM

That is one of the most frightening things I have read lately Ed, hope it remains firmly in the realms of science fiction.

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Explanation?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 09 Nov 17 - 01:46 PM

Oh yeah TMS is weird as all get-out. There is an NPR bit about an autistic person who, when so stimulated, could read body language, and when not, could not.

They already have machines that can read minds well enough to run a Ouija-board type thing for totally paralyzed people who can't even move their eyes to be able to communicate... think music, the cursor moves one way; think math, it moves another. And that is without TMS, just with EEGs.

So it's not like my twins *couldn't* have read each other's minds while in the same little bassinet, with one tummyache to share between the two of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Explanation?
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Nov 17 - 05:02 PM

TMS is unknown in its effect. So it is not really known if it is invasive or not. Acoustic imaging, microwaves all have an effect. What that may be is considered to be an acceptable risk. The risk benefit is up to you.

So far the claims are going beyond the truth. Especially for accelerated learning. Be skeptical.

Jeez I sound like Steve.

The electric tele-interface is an evolving DARPA like project
I think the organic exploration has more to teach us.

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Explanation?
From: robomatic
Date: 09 Nov 17 - 05:10 PM

What do we want?
TIME TRAVEL!

When do we want it?
IT'S IRRELEVANT!

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Explanation?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Nov 17 - 05:29 PM

What do we want?

A CURE FOR TOURETTES!

When do we want it?

C*NT!



God forgive me...

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Explanation?
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Nov 17 - 05:39 PM

My Grandfather told me he saw this guy perform in Falkirk Scotland in the late 1800s perhaps early 1900s.....he induced a man with a withered arm to lift heavy weights the man nearly died, the crowd rioted, and Bodie was run out of town.
Dr Walford Bodie.
Around that time, my grandfather was also taken by his parents to see Buffalo Bill Cody's Wild West Show which also visited Falkirk Tryst.

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Explanation?
From: bobad
Date: 09 Nov 17 - 06:18 PM

Interested in time travel?

Meet here last Thursday, 7pm.

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Explanation?
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Nov 17 - 08:31 PM

The first time a time machine is used marks the time when we can go back to that past but not ever before. To that extent it is not irrelevant.

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Explanation?
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Nov 17 - 08:39 PM

As time recedes or goes forward the rest of the universe remains in motion so we really should call it a time spacecraft and operate it in near vacuum (massless) conditions.

One day the Bezos Musk Corp will sell you time tickets.

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Explanation?
From: robomatic
Date: 09 Nov 17 - 09:09 PM

What if they used a time machine already but no one told?

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Explanation?
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Nov 17 - 09:36 PM

Advances do not come in a linear fashion. An invention comes out of a nexus of philosophy, sci fi, material science, physics, math, history, cultural freedom, necessity, ethics and more.

In a sci fi notion of creating massless matter we could open the door to both teleportation and time travel simultaneously. We are beginning to separate wave function from particle existence. Waves transmitted like light and reintroducing particle mass at another point would provide an exploitation of time and travel. Its a twofer!
This is a Jules Verne worthy insight that will work in todays science fiction. Today this can suspend belief. Tomorrow? I would have to phone a friend or buy a clue.

For me the story of a discovery is a suspenseful mystery. Mix together a couple villains, a couple heroes, a real sneaky scene, character development a tragedy and a ta da in the nick of time success, a moment of pride based on a loving promise and you have your novel. Add a cliff hanger and you have a series.

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Explanation?
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Nov 17 - 07:50 AM

seeing what you think
This is what we have been doing but we are assuming we can force intrusion

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Explanation?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 10 Nov 17 - 08:55 AM

This is seeing what you think...

I have also had dreams that came true, one of which I told, so there are witnesses. But it could always have been something I could have figured out from things I didn't know I might have seen, or something like that. So we're back to that your-brain-is-smarter-than-you-and-doesn't-tell-you-everything bit.

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Explanation?
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Nov 17 - 09:37 AM

There are researchers who claim they can see an image of what a subject is thinking via brain waves. They even show the image they claim they are picking up. I am dubious.

I have seen the images but data can be fudged many ways.

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Explanation?
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Nov 17 - 10:21 AM

http://www.thealiencon.com/tickets/

Where ancient alien archeologist bull shit artists & theorists agree Akhenaten was a hybrid alien.

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Explanation?
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Nov 17 - 01:17 PM

Confirmation by fellow witnesses does not constitute the kind of proof a skeptic requires but it is better than an unsubstantiated report.
I have had only three of these Strange experiences that are outside the realm of established reality but have additional witnesses.

1 The clear presence of a glow around a human being
2 The sonic and subsonic sounds of a ufo
3 The appearance of two globes of light that pass through all walls.

1 This occurred during a hypnosis session with a witness

2 You may ask how do you hear subsonic. You feel it in your bones.
I know what the sound is like on stage during the Saint Seans Organ Concerto. It was similar but deeper in an electric generator sense.

3 This I got to touch with great trepidation.

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Explanation?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Nov 17 - 02:10 PM

"Confirmation by fellow witnesses does not constitute the kind of proof a skeptic requires but it is better than an unsubstantiated report."

We don't require proof. But if your fellow witnesses are unquestioning believers, or co-conspirators, not entirely sane or are just plain liars, the testimony is no better than an unsubstantiated report. And how would we know what they are? The report is one thing. It has to detailed and plausible. But that's only the second hurdle. The first hurdle is to persuade us that the fellow witnesses are worth listening to. It won't have escaped your attention that we are almost talking peer viewed science here. Without that scrutiny your story may be interesting at best but can't inform progress as to enlightening us about the phenomena in question

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Explanation?
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Nov 17 - 02:43 PM

As I recall everyone involved were surprised by #1 and truly very frightened by #2 and #3. All 3 incidents were outside a frame of reference and were not categorized by anything but surprise.

The only thing these incidents have in common is that they have never happened since. A true one off.

The most terrifying was the sound which translated into being unable and unwilling to respond in any meaningful way. (scared stiff) I always heard reports that something like a ufo is silent. So in conclusion, I dunno.

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Explanation?
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Nov 17 - 02:59 PM

The last burden I need is to persuade anyone of anything.
I suppose I could persuade someone I ate yesterday by crapping but that is very unappealing.

Persuasion is more a function of power than science.

Posting an experience is still much safer here than on a format like Facebook.

Unlike Trump I believe I have never uttered the phrase "believe me".

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Explanation?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Nov 17 - 03:10 PM

I know you know it's pointless to ask me to believe you. I have an unenviable track record here of allowing everyone whatever beliefs they want but of dismissing belief as a way of making intellectual progress. No pressure. Either gimme the evidence or I'll express a passing interest then move on unmoved.

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Explanation?
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Nov 17 - 03:57 PM

Reading problem?
My whole point is I AM NOT and never have asked anyone to believe me.

My life may seem preposterous to you but it has been my experience, not yours.

Nothing can change that. Sometimes I wish the high weirdness had never happened but that wish goes unanswered.

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Explanation?
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Nov 17 - 04:27 PM

A belief is one thing but an experience is something a bit more.

A belief seems empty to me but an experience is alive and full of all our senses.

I don't care about beliefs but I will defend my experience without insisting 'one must believe'.

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Explanation?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Nov 17 - 05:23 PM

It's you not reading, not me. It's fine that you believe and that you don't ask me to concur. It's also fine that I express extreme scepticism about the things you claim have happened to you. I can't prove that you're lying. I can't disprove anything you say and you can't give me sufficient evidence which would enable your claims to possess more than just a passing interest. That's life, that's you, that's me. If you feel secure about your claims you wouldn't give a damn about the likes of me. If you don't feel secure, you'll get defensive. Let's see.

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Explanation?
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Nov 17 - 05:25 PM

People experience what they experience.... the cause of their experience is not always clear. Vivid dreams are the closest *I* ever had to metaphysical stuff. I have said for many years (to those who related 'experiences' to me) that I just don't seem to be wired that way.... and I a was always an ardent Sci-fi fan who wanted to believe.

When some insist that their telepathy/levitation/precognition... etc... is real, my answer is always "the burden of proof in on the assertor". It is fascinating to wonder about, but I tend towards James Randi's views.... skeptical, but always ready for a demo... ☺

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Explanation?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Nov 17 - 06:14 PM

I agree with all that, Bill. I dream like a raving lunatic every night, mostly pleasantly though sometimes impossibly bureaucratically. In the latter case the solution is always to get up for a pee, shake myself down and resume in "pleasant" mode. I look forward to hitting the sack and starting my alternative dream life! I even dream like mad during my afternoon nap (I'm an expert napper, and the naps always give me a new lease of life). It's a brilliantly useless phenomenon!

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Explanation?
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Nov 17 - 07:10 PM

I have 'categories' of dreams... often stressful- and probably reflecting the stresses of wakefulness. I often dream of driving places and loosing track of my car after parking.. then walking randomly thru strange streets. *shrug*
   I used to have pleasant flying dreams, but not recently.

I have always **suspected** that 'out of body' and near death experiences and visions of dead relatives, etc., were closely related to vivid dreams and merely interpreted to suit.... but people hold tightly to their presumed extra-sensory experiences- and I can't prove otherwise... so... more shrugs.

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Explanation?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Nov 17 - 07:41 PM

Oh God yes, driving dreams... I'm usually having to reverse downhill with rapidly fading brakes...

Time for a wee!

It's our age, Bill, it's our age...

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Explanation?
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Nov 17 - 09:10 PM

I'm glad you're in the conversation Steve. Yes I had a misread regarding one post. Believe it or not I thought it too rude to say I do not give a damn what you think. I do care what my son thinks, principally because he wants to avoid school.

You probably never noticed but I have on occasion taken some of your most bloated opinions and have used your own words to state the exact opposite and it was more rational and in touch than what you had just said.
Not every point has two sides. Some have one, some have many.

My point is we all tend toward the ethno centric, the ego centric, the Homo Sapien centric, the self centric but those points of view can easily be unhelpful to understanding and straight up wrong.

If we have cringworthy moments or an abundance of vanity it is an indication the ego is in charge. My ego is still breathing but I do my best to smother it. The unconscious is my key to open my consciousness to a wider world. For others it might be travel. Vivre la difference.

This discussion started with my comment that there are rational research programs to explain the mechanisms of telepathy but I prefer to call it shared consciousness. I already linked to some of those studies.
I would hope you do not discourage others from sharing their experiences. For example Mrrzy's was fascinating.

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Explanation?
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Nov 17 - 09:31 PM

Worst driving dream, I'm in the back seat and can only steer

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Explanation?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Nov 17 - 09:32 PM

"You probably never noticed but I have on occasion taken some of your most bloated opinions and have used your own words to state the exact opposite and it was more rational and in touch than what you had just said."

That's arrogant in a way in which the irony of it has eluded you. Just take me on. I don't tend to muck around being all tangential. Let thy speech be yea yea, nay nay.

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Explanation?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 Nov 17 - 02:56 AM

It occurred to me, time travellers posting here would really fuck up the continuity of mudcat discussions..

Threads would make even less sense than they do now after all the obsessive spamming and random mod deletions...

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Explanation?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Nov 17 - 05:07 AM

Not only that, you'd have people putting the horse before the cart and making links to next Tuesdays Daily Mail...

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Explanation?
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Nov 17 - 07:21 AM

How about a post from the future and putting it back here right now?
I have found a significant future post for Steve he may find helpful;

Sorry Steve for calling you a Catalonian Terrorist that resulted in you being put on the flyer watch list and interrupting your flight to Mallorca.

I told the authorities the truth and that it was only a joke that your meeting in Mallorca was for Spanish regime change.

I told them basically I respect Steve very much. He is great with jokes I assume he has collected from many a day at the Pub. He introduced me to a Beethoven I never knew but admired since I was 9. I was first emboldened when he commented that that my writing style was uniquely wrong and should be more like the Daily Mail.
I can tease him being full of himself when it is I being full of myself. He is the least enlightened and most enlightened bloke I know.

I imagined an Odd Couple difference between us that makes him a proper Felix to my improper Oscar. What makes me his opposite is that I have never gone to the pub, club, bar, bistro etc. since I was 20 and knew folks on that alcoholic level.

So I apologize for any sting or insult however misplaced I have made at your expense, meanwhile I hope you win abuser of the month club on one of your 'very cultural' Brexit threads.

I hope this post finds you released and once again set free.
Cheers

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Explanation?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Nov 17 - 08:20 AM

Sentiment appreciated! I can't win the abuser of the month accolade as I have far too much competition. Unless you call telling people to grow up "abuse!"

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Explanation?
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Nov 17 - 10:35 AM

apostate solidarity forever.

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Explanation?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 11 Nov 17 - 05:42 PM

Donuel, it would make sense that if I imagine a butterfly, since imagining uses the same pathways as actually perceiving, I would have those upside-down-and-backwards butterflies on my visual cortex that could be seen by a computer.

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Explanation?
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Nov 17 - 10:08 AM

It is a scientific inquiry worth following however claims may be premature or cleaned up too much.

I may be wrong but I am surprised the word INTUITION has not yet appeared. I bet there is more commonality on the acceptance of intuition.

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Explanation?
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Nov 17 - 11:39 AM

I think "intuition" is certainly a fact Don, but almost impossible to verify, the circumstances are often much too vague....people say "I just had a feeling" certain things would happen after the event.

My experience of what I term "telepathy" involved real mental pain and anguish....Extremely upsetting.

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Explanation?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Nov 17 - 12:12 PM

I'd 'guess' intuition has more to do with a keen imaginative perception and acute judgement gained from experience and education...

not supernatural powers & abilities...???

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Explanation?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Nov 17 - 01:16 PM

Mrs Steve always knows immediately when I have stolen chocoate from the large stash she keeps in a cupboard. The bars I take are always out of date, having been in there for a year or more. I don't remove any bar that isn't there in multiple quantities and I leave no crumbs and I hide the wrapper deep in the rubbish bin under the kind of detritus that you would not want to rummage in. No matter. She may not have visited the cupboard for weeks, but my transgression is always detected within a day. I put this down to a combination of telepathy, mind-reading, intuition, supernatural powers, quantum-induced magic and sheer viciousness.

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Explanation?
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Nov 17 - 01:49 PM

She might have a Nanny Cam. chocolate should not be a parole violation

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Explanation?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Nov 17 - 02:13 PM

I mostly always know when my mrs has 'done something' in the house
because I was educated at an early age to be aware, observant, and methodical...

Mrs punkfolkrocker is too careless and slapdash, and rubbish at covering her tracks
- so I 'know' when she is the guilty culprit.. no matter how much she protests her innocence...

Last month water cascading down through the kitchen ceiling was the most obvious give away that a mysterious event had happened concerning the bathroom shower.....

She had no choice but to own up to that one relatively immediately....

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Explanation?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Nov 17 - 04:15 PM

So now you're blaming relativity...

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Explanation?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Nov 17 - 04:49 PM

that Einstein.. wot a bastard...!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Explanation?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Nov 17 - 06:25 AM

My experience of what I term "telepathy" involved real mental pain and anguish....Extremely upsetting.

I can see that it would have been, having read your description.
Rag's experience of what he termed "telepathy" was "disconcerting" for him too.

Subject: RE: BS: Telepathy. Experience? Explanation?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 13 Nov 17 - 03:44 PM

I had been talking about intuition...