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BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them

Stu 06 Nov 17 - 06:10 AM
Nigel Parsons 06 Nov 17 - 07:30 AM
Stu 06 Nov 17 - 07:34 AM
akenaton 06 Nov 17 - 07:38 AM
Stu 06 Nov 17 - 08:55 AM
Greg F. 06 Nov 17 - 09:39 AM
akenaton 06 Nov 17 - 04:35 PM
akenaton 06 Nov 17 - 04:43 PM
Big Al Whittle 07 Nov 17 - 02:04 AM
Nigel Parsons 07 Nov 17 - 03:25 AM
Iains 07 Nov 17 - 04:20 AM
Stu 07 Nov 17 - 04:53 AM
Stu 07 Nov 17 - 05:08 AM
Nigel Parsons 07 Nov 17 - 05:25 AM
akenaton 07 Nov 17 - 05:52 AM
Nigel Parsons 07 Nov 17 - 06:22 AM
akenaton 07 Nov 17 - 06:33 AM
Stu 07 Nov 17 - 06:56 AM
Greg F. 07 Nov 17 - 09:14 AM
Stu 07 Nov 17 - 11:06 AM
Backwoodsman 07 Nov 17 - 02:06 PM
Backwoodsman 07 Nov 17 - 02:07 PM
akenaton 07 Nov 17 - 02:38 PM
Backwoodsman 07 Nov 17 - 02:40 PM
Greg F. 07 Nov 17 - 02:51 PM
Stu 07 Nov 17 - 02:54 PM
keberoxu 07 Nov 17 - 04:51 PM
akenaton 07 Nov 17 - 05:14 PM
Steve Shaw 07 Nov 17 - 05:24 PM
Backwoodsman 08 Nov 17 - 02:31 AM
akenaton 08 Nov 17 - 04:27 AM
Backwoodsman 08 Nov 17 - 04:40 AM
Steve Shaw 08 Nov 17 - 05:17 AM
akenaton 08 Nov 17 - 06:24 AM
Steve Shaw 08 Nov 17 - 06:33 AM
Big Al Whittle 08 Nov 17 - 06:55 AM
Iains 08 Nov 17 - 07:02 AM
Steve Shaw 08 Nov 17 - 07:30 AM
Backwoodsman 08 Nov 17 - 10:18 AM
akenaton 09 Nov 17 - 12:38 PM
Big Al Whittle 09 Nov 17 - 12:48 PM
Greg F. 09 Nov 17 - 01:18 PM
akenaton 09 Nov 17 - 07:12 PM
Donuel 09 Nov 17 - 08:28 PM
Iains 10 Nov 17 - 06:00 AM
Steve Shaw 10 Nov 17 - 06:08 AM
Iains 10 Nov 17 - 06:20 AM
Steve Shaw 10 Nov 17 - 06:30 AM
Iains 10 Nov 17 - 06:32 AM
Steve Shaw 10 Nov 17 - 06:36 AM
Iains 10 Nov 17 - 06:54 AM
Steve Shaw 10 Nov 17 - 07:03 AM
akenaton 10 Nov 17 - 10:21 AM
Steve Shaw 10 Nov 17 - 12:41 PM
Nigel Parsons 12 Nov 17 - 12:33 PM
akenaton 13 Nov 17 - 03:45 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Nov 17 - 05:20 AM
Thompson 13 Nov 17 - 05:29 AM
Stu 13 Nov 17 - 05:32 AM
Nigel Parsons 13 Nov 17 - 05:45 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Nov 17 - 06:35 AM
Nigel Parsons 13 Nov 17 - 07:19 AM
Raggytash 13 Nov 17 - 07:23 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Nov 17 - 07:31 AM
Nigel Parsons 13 Nov 17 - 07:46 AM
Stu 13 Nov 17 - 09:16 AM
Big Al Whittle 13 Nov 17 - 09:38 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Nov 17 - 10:20 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Nov 17 - 02:43 PM
Steve Shaw 13 Nov 17 - 07:25 PM
Nigel Parsons 14 Nov 17 - 03:14 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Nov 17 - 03:41 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Nov 17 - 04:11 AM
Steve Shaw 14 Nov 17 - 05:46 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Nov 17 - 06:27 AM
Dave the Gnome 14 Nov 17 - 06:31 AM
Steve Shaw 14 Nov 17 - 07:26 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Nov 17 - 08:15 AM
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Subject: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: Stu
Date: 06 Nov 17 - 06:10 AM

It appears the Brexiteers, Trumpers and just about anyone else with a few quid has in fact been happily avoiding tax while us proles stump up. Far from being at one with the people, the likes of Ashcroft and Ross et al prove that both campaigns were a scam, no different to the usual bullshit and bluster; Brexiteers are still robbing us (see Gove's latest expenses claim) because they are thieves cowering under a cawl of 'legitimacy', protected by privilege.

Of course of interest to those of still suffering under the Norman Yoke is the fact that Brenda has been stuffing her (er, 'donated' under duress by her 'subjects') backsheesh into various dodgy businesses not least of which are predatory high-street usury specialists Brighthouse, a business that exploits the poor by playing on the feeling of 'missing out' and selling them tat a extortionate interest rates.

The hypocrisy of the monarchy is exposed after her she said in her 2016 Queen's speech that "legislation will be introduced to tackle corruption, money laundering and tax evasion."

So here we are. All the snouts are still in the trough, and it will ever be thus until we vote in a genuine anti-corporate, pro socially responsible capitalist government that stands up for the rights of the ordinary people, not liars, lickspittles and demagogues.

We get what we vote for.


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Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 06 Nov 17 - 07:30 AM

Brexiteers are still robbing us (see Gove's latest expenses claim) because they are thieves cowering under a cawl of 'legitimacy', protected by privilege.
I can just imagine Gove with a bowl of Welsh soup on his head. Perhaps you meant 'caul' or 'cowl'.

The hypocrisy of the monarchy is exposed after her she said in her 2016 Queen's speech that "legislation will be introduced to tackle corruption, money laundering and tax evasion."
Investing abroad is not a crime. The crime is investing abroad with the intention of defrauding the tax authorities. Outward investment supports other countries, and brings profits back to the UK.

We get what we vote for.
I don't think you voted for our monarch.


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Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: Stu
Date: 06 Nov 17 - 07:34 AM

1) My mistake, but works for me anyway.

2) Although nothing illegal has occurred, there is a moral issue here that warrants discussion.

3) Damn right. But we as a society voted for the present government, and they encourage this sort of thing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Nov 17 - 07:38 AM

"So here we are. All the snouts are still in the trough, and it will ever be thus until we vote in a genuine anti-corporate, pro socially responsible capitalist government that stands up for the rights of the ordinary people, not liars, lickspittles and demagogues"

A pro socialist capitalist government!!!! Now where the fuck are we gonna get one of these beasts?
Your political ignorance knows no bounds Stu, I gave you the benefit of the doubt when I thought that you had the idealism of youth on your side, but it appears that you are almost as old as the rest of us. I suppose some people just never grow up.

If you want a SOCIALIST government you must understand that there will be huge sacrifices to be made....you do not sound to me like someone who is prepared to make any sacrifices. Quite the reverse, you want all the goodies which capitalism provides to people in your sector of society....AND equality into the bargain.
Dream on chum!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: Stu
Date: 06 Nov 17 - 08:55 AM

I know nuance is not your thing Ake, but try to imagine a world where businesses are in integral part of our society and act in a responsible way that means not only do they make a profit and satisfy their shareholders, but they contribute in a positive way to a fair and equal society; they would be liable to sanction if they didn't act accordingly. Infrastructure would be taken back into public ownership as privatisation simply doesn't work for services that suffer when trying to turn a profit.

Absolutism is a symptom of a deficit of imagination, something you right-wing lot suffer from massively. There is no fixed system, it can be changed for the common good.

I'm not your chum.


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Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Nov 17 - 09:39 AM

Your political ignorance knows no bounds Stu

Amusing - or possibly sickening? - coming from Ake.


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Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Nov 17 - 04:35 PM

Sorry, I meant to put chump!! :0(


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Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Nov 17 - 04:43 PM

And you certainly have a vivid imagination if you think a capitalist system can be run efficiently within socialist principles.

Sorry, but socialism will come at a price it will not be pleasant, but it WILL be a necessity. It will support a survival economy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 02:04 AM

can't see what Brexit has to do with people avoiding tax.

its two issues totally unrelated.

the shame about the tax avoidance is that no one is investing in England. not even the people with a moral duty like the monarchy. so all the factories are being built in low wage economy countries like China.

mind you if the remainers had the extra tax money they would probably spend it on special marinas with mooring rights for Somali pirates on Thames and the Trent.


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Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 03:25 AM

From: Big Al Whittle - PM
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 02:04 AM
. . . the shame about the tax avoidance is that no one is investing in England. not even the people with a moral duty like the monarchy. so all the factories are being built in low wage economy countries like China.

There's lots of investment in UK, including inward investment.
Many football clubs are owned by the rich overseas.
Many London properties are being bought by the super-rich in the Arab states.
The (second) Severn Bridge is/was owned and run by a French conglomerate.
The Chinese are likely to finance (partly) the next atomic power stations.

I'm sure if I delved deeply enough I'd find foreign investment in nearly every industry in the UK.


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Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: Iains
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 04:20 AM

"It;s still us and them"........and Bono! I think the lad is a bit of a hypocrite.


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Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: Stu
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 04:53 AM

Bono - ugh!


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Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: Stu
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 05:08 AM

Many football clubs are owned by the rich overseas.

Attracted by profit and the prestige of owning a premiership club. A nightmare, as anyone whose club is owned by absentee owners who meddle will tell you. This hasn't worked well for may clubs and the concentration of wealth in the premiership has proved a challenge for the lower league clubs who face rising player wage bills thanks to the idiotic wages being dished out in the premiership. As for the effect on the national team...

Many London properties are being bought by the super-rich in the Arab states.

Driving up prices, leaving them empty whilst locals are driven out by gentrification. Nowt good about this, plus on a recent trip to the smoke observed that many of these buildings are vulgar expressions of corporate and personal wealth and have no civic utility or respect for their surroundings. Ruining the city.


The (second) Severn Bridge is/was owned and run by a French conglomerate.

Who spend the money they make down Mrs. Jones' cockles and Laver bread shop no doubt, pumping it back into the local economy. Or not.


The Chinese are likely to finance (partly) the next atomic power stations.

Bad news. Let a brutal authoritarian regime be responsible for part of out energy infrastructure? Madness.


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Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 05:25 AM

I wasn't defending any of those investments, I was responding to the comment:
. . the shame about the tax avoidance is that no one is investing in England.


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Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 05:52 AM

"Bad news. Let a brutal authoritarian regime be responsible for part of out energy infrastructure? Madness."

My My, Isn't it inconvenient when economic reality intrudes upon the "liberal" myth?

If we are to function as a serious trading nation, we must be free to trade with any country in the world, we also need to attract investment as does any other trading nation.
Only well heeled "liberals" can afford the luxury of picking and choosing according to their ideology.

Just keep boycotting MacDonalds, you cannot do much harm in that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 06:22 AM

From: Stu - PM
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 05:08 AM
"The Chinese are likely to finance (partly) the next atomic power stations."
Bad news. Let a brutal authoritarian regime be responsible for part of out energy infrastructure? Madness.


Not only do I not support the idea, I have made my thoughts known, although not in a single word dismissal.

SIR, The Hinkley Point power station is planned with Chinese investment and French management. This week we have read about threats to power stations in France from its trade unions. At a cost of 18 billion pounds, the Hinkley project would be better done in-house.

With government funding and British businesses undertaking the construction, the project should (eventually) be self-funding without the need to put an additional tariff on domestic fuel bills.

More secure power is needed as soon as possible. Let's not see this continually kicked into the long grass.


Telegraph letters, May 2016


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Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 06:33 AM

As I said on another thread, a new world order is being constructed, we must as a sovereign nation have input to this construction without the ideological shackles of the EU.
"liberal" democracy in in meltdown in Western Europe, it has visibly failed the populace......what is it to be replaced by.


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Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: Stu
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 06:56 AM

Nigel: Apologies for my misunderstanding, and thanks for posting the letter. I had the impression from various commentators (none of whose names I remember) on the TV who were discussing the subject when Chinese involvement was first mooted there was some discomfort about letting them near our infrastructure, especially as they would require access to systems that had significance for national security.

Meanwhile, the revelations on Panorama about Apple and their discussions about democracy on the Isle of Man are pretty shocking, although the papers (erm, Grauniad at least) seem to gloss over this. Hmmm.


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Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 09:14 AM

Order #: 1305335999
Company Name: W-C ARTCO
P.O. #: WEB1300079089


Absolutely! And the Illuminati, the Tri-Lateral Commission, and the "Deep State" are responsible.

Be very afraid.

Oh yeah - and maybe the Masons, too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: Stu
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 11:06 AM

Ah, this depressing article explains why Cameron did sod all about transparency, despite promising he would. Who'da thunk it? Tax haven lobby boasted of 'superb penetration' at top of UK government


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Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 02:06 PM

?can't see what Brexit has to do with people avoiding tax. its two issues totally unrelated.?

I?ve told you several times, Al - tax avoidance is the sole reason for BrexShit. It?s why the Tories are hell-bent on driving us over the cliff-edge of a ?Hard? Brexit - because it?s what their immensely-rich puppet-masters, some of whom are the owners of the gutter-press rags that spread the ?Take Back Control? and ?Regain Sovereignty? horse-shit to stir up the simple-minded, the xenophobes, and the ones who have a grievance because life dealt them a less-than-fantastic hand, and persuade them that it?s our membership of the EU that?s to blame for their unhappiness, have instructed them to do.

It?s got nothing to do with making life better for you or any of the other Brexshit-voters, and everything to do with those immensely-wealthy people avoiding being hit by the new Anti-Tax-Avoidance and Evasion Regulations being introduced in May, 2019. Why else do you think they are so hell-bent on leaving by the end of March, 2019? It?s not rocket-science.

They?ve made complete mugs of you, Ake, Pte. Parts, The Professor, and all the others trumpeting the BrexShit Propaganda they were so gullible and feeble-minded as to fall for.


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Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 02:07 PM

And WTF are those question marks in place of the inverted commas I typed?
Fucking prehistoric Mudcat!


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Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 02:38 PM

Backwoodsman this country is being overrun by hundreds of thousands of Eastern European immigrants, brought here annually by an economic policy based on keeping wages low and cutting training places for our own people......without Brexit we would be forced to accept any number of these people and the strain which they place on our infrastructure, for the foreseeable future.

That is the real purpose of Brexit, to put an end to unregulated immigration from the EU and take control of our borders and our laws.
That does not mean that there will be NO immigration but we shall decide the numbers and the quality.


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Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 02:40 PM

And on that note, my case rests, M?Lud.


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Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 02:51 PM

this country is being overrun by hundreds of thousands of Eastern European immigrants

And wogs begin at Calais.


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Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: Stu
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 02:54 PM

Another over-privileged posh git acting without respect and with his chubby little fingers in the pie. Shameful. Paradise Papers: Prince Charles lobbied on climate policy after shares purchase


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Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: keberoxu
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 04:51 PM

What are Paradise Papers?


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Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 05:14 PM

"And on that note, my case rests, M?Lud."

That is neither witty nor humorous, and makes no attempt to address the points I made. Typical "liberal" left bullshit, do you seriously believe that the rates of immigration which pertained before Brexit were sustainable or beneficial?

Of course unregulated immigration is not the ONLY reason that the referendum was won, but it was a main driver, people even round this area were worried about the change in society, the lack of opportunity for school leavers, the dearth of apprenticeships as firms used agencies to provide cheap foreign labour.
I live in a quiet country area, I cannot imagine what it must be like for those in cities or housing estates.

Again I do not blame the immigrants our governments went along with "freedom of movement" as an economic policy designed to make a failing system, competitive. The victims were the workers made redundant in the process.


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Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Nov 17 - 05:24 PM

They are millions of leaked documents, leaked to a German paper, which reveal a massive amount of tax avoidance by people and companies that are already as rich as Croesus and which reveal that our royal family is corrupt. Apart from that (so far), nothing to see here. 😂


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Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Nov 17 - 02:31 AM

Ake, I have absolutely no intention of ?attempting to address? the points you made - I simply refer you back to my post of 7 Nov 17 - 02:06 PM.

Therein is my response. Though I?m not sure you have the intellectual wherewithal to recognise that you?ve been made a muggins.


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Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Nov 17 - 04:27 AM

To be honest BWM, I cannot make any sense to your post.
It appears to be more of a rant against exiting the EU.
I have no reason at all to believe that the EU have any intention of stamping down on tax evasion for the rich. If that is their intention, why has it taken so long to implement measures?


The EU is a capitalist cartel dedicated to enriching those who control it, it has no interest in the development of poorer nations, or it would never have thought up the parasitic wheeze of "free movement"


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Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Nov 17 - 04:40 AM

Well why am I not surprised? After all, it's hardly the kind of thing that the Daily Heil makes a big noise about.

BTW, you claim 'I cannot make any sense of your post' - what were you doing during English Comprehension lessons when you were at school? Sucking on a Park Drive in the bike-shed?

Here you go...


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Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Nov 17 - 05:17 AM

Thank God you said Park Drive. My mind was just about to boggle there.

Good fags they were. None of yer low-tar crap for us! Mind you, when they brought out Park Drive tipped we hard men stuck to the lip-ripping untipped jobs as we didn't want to be seen as homosexual...


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Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Nov 17 - 06:24 AM

It is no puzzle Stu, there is no equality in a capitalist system, nobody promised equality. They promised freedom of sorts and social upheaval

In a way it makes sense as the wealth producers must be unhindered, tax them too highly and they move to a regime which values them enough to allow them to work efficiently.
Trickle down economics are the basis of capitalist society, cut out the wealth producers and the house of cards collapses.

I have shown you the only alternative, it will take another couple of generations, we would not like it, but they, "the people" will think it is heaven.


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Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Nov 17 - 06:33 AM

"In a way it makes sense as the wealth producers must be unhindered, tax them too highly and they move to a regime which values them enough to allow them to work efficiently"

Funny that. When the fat cats threaten to move out we declare that they must be unhindered in order to keep them here. Heaven forfend that we tax them much, if at all. When the miners and the shipyard workers and the steel workers threatened to strike to improve their pittance, they were "holding the country to ransom." I think I know who the real wealth creators are and I think I know who's really holding the country to ransom, and I think I know that you've got it arse about face.


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Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Nov 17 - 06:55 AM

i find it very difficult addressing you as Backwoodsman. you become someone different - permanently exasperated.


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Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: Iains
Date: 08 Nov 17 - 07:02 AM

" I think I know who the real wealth creators are and I think I know who's really holding the country to ransom, and I think I know that you've got it arse about face."

Perhaps a few lessons on how to think clearly might alter your false perceptions!


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Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Nov 17 - 07:30 AM

Try me. Preferably from your own brain, not via a ton of pointless links from biased sources. Try a dash of civility while you're at it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Nov 17 - 10:18 AM

"i find it very difficult addressing you as Backwoodsman. you become someone different - permanently exasperated."

Is that you or me that's 'permanently exasperated', Al? 😜😎

There are indeed some extremely exasperating fuckwits around the place - I keep taking myself away from Mudcat for spells to give myself a break from the worst of them but, occasionally, I'm tempted to check back to see how things are.

And it's forever Groundhog Day.


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Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Nov 17 - 12:38 PM

"Funny that. When the fat cats threaten to move out we declare that they must be unhindered in order to keep them here. Heaven forfend that we tax them much, if at all. When the miners and the shipyard workers and the steel workers threatened to strike to improve their pittance, they were "holding the country to ransom."

Well Steve it's quite simple really and not at all "funny". The miners and steelworkers were NOT "wealth producers" their respective industries were in decline and their product had become uncompetitive.

Not wholly the fault of the workers of course but the system doesn't do charity. Vote for capitalism and you get exactly what you deserve.
Welcome to the real world....someday.


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Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Nov 17 - 12:48 PM

i think the thing is that they enjoy our stable society with all the protections, privileges and available pleasures. the only way it will remain stable is if they cough up their taxes, like the rest of us have to.

i'm having to pay vat and fuck knows what on my guitar amps, why shouldn't Lewis Hamilton and Prince Charles pay tax on their private jets.


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Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Nov 17 - 01:18 PM

In a way it makes sense as the wealth producers must be unhindered

Yup. Trickle-down economics, a.k.a. "Voodoo Economics" (Thank you Bush I) one more time, with feeling.

Diffiren decade, same bullshit: hasn't worked yet.

What's that definition of insanity again; doing the same thing... well...never mind.

Welcome to the New Guilded Age & the current crop of "malefactors of great wealth" - Where's Teddy Roosevelt (Republican, by the way!) when we need him???

Too much cannot be said against the men of wealth who sacrifice everything to getting wealth. There is not in the world a more ignoble character than the mere money-getting American, insensible to every duty, regardless of every principle, bent only on amassing a fortune, and putting his fortune only to the basest uses ?whether these uses be to speculate in stocks and wreck railroads himself, or to allow his son to lead a life of foolish and expensive idleness and gross debauchery, or to purchase some scoundrel of high social position, foreign or native, for his daughter. Such a man is only the more dangerous if he occasionally does some deed like founding a college or endowing a church, which makes those good people who are also foolish forget his real iniquity. These men are equally careless of the working men, whom they oppress, and of the State, whose existence they imperil. There are not very many of them, but there is a very great number of men who approach more or less closely to the type, and, just in so far as they do so approach, they are curses to the country. (TR in Forum, February 1895.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Nov 17 - 07:12 PM

Would you care to answer for yourself Greg?


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Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Nov 17 - 08:28 PM

Global Gobbelization has always been for those with the price of admission. All others are servants.


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Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: Iains
Date: 10 Nov 17 - 06:00 AM

I see the menu on offer at hotel corbinista comes from the same trough of Paradise!
Were they not supposed to be included in "US".
The usual hypocrisy from labour!

http://www.express.co.uk/comment/expresscomment/877353/Labour-Jeremy-Corbyn-Paradise-Papers-tax-avoiders-capitalism-offshore


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Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Nov 17 - 06:08 AM

Well now there's a lovely bit of measured writing from an unbiased source! You're picking at scraps, as is the Express. Before you get back to reading your scurrilous rag, can you give us chapter and verse on when Jeremy Corbyn appointed himself "champion of the people?" That's what your item sez,after all. Come along, Iains - piss or get off the pot!


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Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: Iains
Date: 10 Nov 17 - 06:20 AM

Stupid, stupid boy!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Nov 17 - 06:30 AM

And do take a little advice on choosing your links a little more wisely. On that same page in the Express the leader writer is railing against the Labour Party, quite rightly, for failing to properly inform Carl Sargeant of the allegations against him . Yeah, sure, make certain that the accused know what they're accused of, right? We'll agree with that, I'm sure. A little further down is an advert for Israel bonds. Israel imprisons hundreds of Palestinians (they call it, euphemistically, "administrative detention") without charge, often without telling the victims what they're supposed to have done, often for a year or more, then they almost always just let them go. Frankly, Iains, I don't think the Labour Party need take any lectures about hypocrisy from the Daily Express.


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Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: Iains
Date: 10 Nov 17 - 06:32 AM

The news that just keeps on giving. More scraps for the well educated scientist that at 60+ still cannot create a link! Or is that his devious ploy to excuse seamlessly conflating fact with fiction?


http://www.theweek.co.uk/paradise-papers/89578/paradise-papers-labour-councils-avoid-12m-in-uk-tax


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Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Nov 17 - 06:36 AM

And stop being so bloody rude. That post was completely uncalled for. I set you a challenge that you can't rise to. When did Corbyn appoint himself "champion of the people?" That's what your link said he's done. Presumably you link to things that you agree with. If the Express can make that up, what else do they make up? If the best you can do is answer that with a puerile insult then the rest of us can draw our own conclusions about you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: Iains
Date: 10 Nov 17 - 06:54 AM

Luvvin it!


https://www.spectator.co.uk/2017/11/another-year-another-tax-leak-and-the-usual-festival-of-hypocrisy/

From the Independant:

Jeremy Corbyn, Labour voters like me want a champion for British workers ? not a sandal-wearing socialist with the charisma of an ageing Labrador.

Must be a cousin of stevie blunder!


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Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Nov 17 - 07:03 AM

Try to post without insults.


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Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Nov 17 - 10:21 AM

Nice link to the Spectator Iains.


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Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Nov 17 - 12:41 PM

The "tax avoidance" surrounding the setting up of the Scott Trust was done to save the paper from Lord Beaverbrook, that right-wing power-hungry imperialist, would-be appeaser and friend of Lord Rothermere. The Scott family gave up their wealth in favour of the trust and the Guardian has remained a not-for-profit independent newspaper, never owned by a newspaper magnate (they're all great guys, aren't they?) ever since. Not quite the same as multimillionaires shuffling their money round tax havens in order to make even more millions whilst sat on their fat arses while the rest of us make up the deficit, eh? Still, if you really want to make that moral equivalence, all I can say is that it tells us everything we need to know about your own moral standards.


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Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Nov 17 - 12:33 PM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 10 Nov 17 - 06:30 AM
I don't think the Labour Party need take any lectures about hypocrisy from the Daily Express.


Quite true. I don't think the Labour Party need lectures on hypocrisy either.


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Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Nov 17 - 03:45 AM

Much too subtle Nigel :0(......5/10.


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Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Nov 17 - 05:20 AM

"Quite true. I don't think the Labour Party need lectures on hypocrisy either."
A feeble excuse Nigel
There is no argument that our Parliamentary system breeds self-serving greed and hypocrisy (though I have little doubt that you would e the first to deny that fact and defend the status quo
The solution to the present situation highlighted in the Paradise Papers lies in the hands of the Government of the day who are (despite all their self-inflicted internal problems) in the position to introduce reforms to end such tax-evading corruption
THey will not do so because the Tory Party acts in the interests of those who take advantage of tax loopholes
Interesting that you people should move in on Bono while igoring the greedy shenanigans of Madge and Chas!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: Thompson
Date: 13 Nov 17 - 05:29 AM

Don't most of the Scandinavian countries run a capitalist system efficiently within socialist principles?


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Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: Stu
Date: 13 Nov 17 - 05:32 AM

So now Gove and BoJo, two men without an ounce of integrity between them are ganging up on the increasingly isolated MayBot by sending her intimidating letters telling her she must prepare forgo deal. This not only illustrates the complete shambles of a government that is making the UK a laughing stock, bit also the fact these two dullards don't seem to grasp that no deal would be a disaster; it's the one thing we HAVE to avoid.

Please can we have someone competent in charge? Please?


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Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 Nov 17 - 05:45 AM

From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 13 Nov 17 - 05:20 AM
"Quite true. I don't think the Labour Party need lectures on hypocrisy either."
A feeble excuse Nigel


There was no excuse in there. Steve Shaw made a comment and I agreed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Nov 17 - 06:35 AM

"There was no excuse in there"
Sorry if I have misunderstood you Nigel
The point of my posting remains
It is within the remit of the Government to block the loopholes - and they won't because they act in the interest of the maggots who crawl through them
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 Nov 17 - 07:19 AM

From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 13 Nov 17 - 05:20 AM
There is no argument that our Parliamentary system breeds self-serving greed and hypocrisy (though I have little doubt that you would e the first to deny that fact and defend the status quo

I would only defend the status quo on the basis that, for all its faults, no-one has suggested a better model.
The self-serving politicians are many of those who tried to persuade us not to vote for Brexit, as it is a great feeding-trough for politicians. That is a good example of self-interest.

The solution to the present situation highlighted in the Paradise Papers lies in the hands of the Government of the day who are (despite all their self-inflicted internal problems) in the position to introduce reforms to end such tax-evading corruption
THey will not do so because the Tory Party acts in the interests of those who take advantage of tax loopholes

Any such reforms could have been introduced by previous Labour governments. The fact that they have not been means either that Labour politicians are just as self-serving, or the introduction would not be as simple as you seem to think.

Interesting that you people should move in on Bono while igoring the greedy shenanigans of Madge and Chas!
I have made no mention of Bono, and (assuming by 'Madge & Chas' you mean the Queen and Prince). Several people have already pointed out that the Queen is not evading, or avoiding, taxation. Prince Charles, speaking out on environmental matters (which he has long done) may not have been best advised in view of some of his recent investments.


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Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: Raggytash
Date: 13 Nov 17 - 07:23 AM

"The self-serving politicians are many of those who tried to persuade us not to vote for Brexit, as it is a great feeding-trough for politicians. That is a good example of self-interest"

I presume you must mean people like Farage who went back to his 100,000 Euro a year plus expenses as an MEP


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Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Nov 17 - 07:31 AM

"no-one has suggested a better model."
How about a government that acts for all instead of only th privileged, or is that beyond the realms of possibility ?
Believe it or not, that's what democracy is supposed to be about
"The self-serving politicians are many of those who tried to persuade us not to vote for Brexit"
Brexit was based on self interest at the expense of the racial minority of Britons and those seeking refuge from wars Britain have supported
"Any such reforms could have been introduced by previous Labour governments. "
Offshore accounts and tax evasion have come to a head under the present administration - the Blair Government was little more than Conservatism in drag
I am not flying the flag for any particular party but you are using inbuilt systematic corruption that allows the wealthy to dodge taxes as an excuse
"Several people have already pointed out that the Queen is not evading, or avoiding, taxation"
From The4 Financial Times:
"In response to the release of the Paradise Papers, the duchy made clear that the Queen does not manage her wealth personally and said: ?We operate a number of investments and a few of these are with overseas funds. All of our investments are fully audited and legitimate.?
Madge may not be personally be evading tax but she is employing people who do so on her behalf.
The fact that what they do is legal is the point I am making
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 Nov 17 - 07:46 AM

"In response to the release of the Paradise Papers, the duchy made clear that the Queen does not manage her wealth personally and said: ?We operate a number of investments and a few of these are with overseas funds. All of our investments are fully audited and legitimate.?
Madge may not be personally be evading tax but she is employing people who do so on her behalf.
The fact that what they do is legal is the point I am making


As I stated very carefully in the first response of this thread:
"Investing abroad is not a crime. The crime is investing abroad with the intention of defrauding the tax authorities. Outward investment supports other countries, and brings profits back to the UK."


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Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: Stu
Date: 13 Nov 17 - 09:16 AM

"Investing abroad is not a crime"

Of course "investing" is a mealy mouthed way of putting it, but most people know full well its tax avoidance which might well be legal but is ethically unsound in a society where we all contribute according to our means. Lewis Hamilton or Brenda might well feel chuffed avoiding tax on their wealth, but the truth is they are saying to the rest of us "fuck you, you pay what I can avoid".

So proportionality most of us pay far more tax than those who move their money offshore. Which they do to avoid tax, whether by 'investment' or other nefarious means.

Meanwhile, other elitist and establishment shitskins (the same ones that fooled Brexiteers into thinking they were somehow distant from all their peers) are now telling their mates to get their money out of the UK before it all goes tits up big style: Pro-Brexit MP John Redwood advised investors to pull money out of the UK

Amazing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Nov 17 - 09:38 AM

'Madge may not be personally be evading tax but she is employing people who do so on her behalf.
The fact that what they do is legal is the point I am making
Jim Carroll'

absolutely! she could employ people who weren't twisters.


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Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Nov 17 - 10:20 AM

""Investing abroad is not a crime.!"
You keep making my point for me Nigel
If you can't see anything wrong with the wealthiest section of the population being able to avoid tax while the rest of us have to make up the shortfall with NHS hospitals under pressure, increased inflation, and a rapidly expanding gap between have a lots and having nothing... and everything else that being poor in Britain today - well, what can you say other than it's obvious why you defend the system the way you do.
Stu just put it in a nutshell - you apparently are allergic to that type of nut!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Nov 17 - 02:43 PM

"INVESTING" ABROAD
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Nov 17 - 07:25 PM

What I find absolutely amazing, coming from our resident apologists for Charles, the Queen and the rest of the shabby crowd who pay armies of accountants a fortune to "minimise" their tax bills, is that they defend all that whilst scrabbling around to find how lefties "do the same." The bollix about the Guardian, as I've shown, is a brilliant example. So, in one breath they bend over backwards to justify their own tribe's massive tax avoidance ("none of it is actually illegal, old chap, so what are you on about!"), then, in the next breath, condemn those NOT in their tribe for what they see as doing the same thing, except (they forget) that it's a million times smaller and done for motives that do not include piling even more millions on top of even more millions. Keeping an independent newspaper afloat in a sea of right-wing rags (ironically, largely owned by tax avoiders😂😂),for example, or funding struggling public sector pension funds. Hypocrisy personified!


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Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 14 Nov 17 - 03:14 AM

Same old, same old:
From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 13 Nov 17 - 07:25 PM
What I find absolutely amazing, coming from our resident apologists for Charles, the Queen and the rest of the shabby crowd who pay armies of accountants a fortune to "minimise" their tax bills, is that they defend all that whilst scrabbling around to find how lefties "do the same."


From The Economist
THE grandest name associated with the 'Paradise Papers', leaked documents that shine light on offshore transactions (see article), is that of Queen Elizabeth. The papers reveal that the Duchy of Lancaster, her private estate, invested millions in a Cayman Islands fund. Many of her subjects are nonplussed. Jeremy Corbyn, the leader of the Labour Party, implied that she should apologise, though there is no suggestion of wrongdoing. Yet despite her offshore dealings, the queen actually pays more tax than legally required, not less.


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Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Nov 17 - 03:41 AM

" Yet despite her offshore dealings, the queen actually pays more tax than legally required, not less."
And again you make my point Nigel
Hiding behind what is "legally allowed" only underlines the fact that the law, made by the wealthy for the wealthy allows the advantaged to dodge taxes
Of course we realise any dustman finding himself with a few bob to spare is equally at liberty to invest his savings in The Cayman Islands
Is that your argument?
THe cap-doffers seem to have movd on from "she didn't know anythingg about it" to "it's ok not to pay tax as long as you can rove your not breaking the law"
THE COST TO BRITAIN -probably out of date
THE REAL COST of tax evasion
Jim Carroll

Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Nov 17 - 04:11 AM

PRIORITIES
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Nov 17 - 05:46 AM

You do make our point for us, Nigel. This has never been about illegal activity. It is about the immorality of using legal loopholes, by very rich people or corporations, to increase their billions still further whilst the rest of us struggle to shore up public services, queue for a year or more to get an operation to stop chronic pain, dump a box of cornflakes in the food bank box, buy a Big Issue, see the disabled shat on and watch helplessly as the concept of decent pensions disappears over the horizon. We can't expect you to see it, Nigel. You are a Tory. The Tory Party, first and foremost, is the party of self-interest, no such thing as society, me first, devil take the hindmost, the undeserving poor, Queen and country. And it always has been. When the shady stuff that goes on behind closed doors, preferably offshore, is leaked out and clouds the charade of "Tory decency" it's very embarrassing for you. So you lot scrabble around for the scraps to try to convince us that "lefties do it too." Pathetic!


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Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Nov 17 - 06:27 AM

This behaviour not only underlines the greed of the wealthy and the readiness of the state to accommodate that greed (after all, it was Thatcher who attempted to respectability greed with her parable about the rich not being able to help the poor if it wasn't for their wealth)
It's also a reminder, if one were needed, of the contempt in which the not-so-well-off are held
I worked for the wealthiest man in Britain once, in one of his five homes in Eaton Square, London
He had a luxurious first floor flat and, so his neighbours wouldn't be offended by the rabble coming through the front door, we were instructed to enter by a ladder propped up against the porch, then scramble though a window - this was in the depths of an icy winter.
I remember an elderly building labourer just on retirement having to carefully edge up ice-covered rungs.
After two weeks I was the last to leave the job, having to finish off the lighting in the kitchen
His luddship - The Duke of W... told me he was going out and would return shortly, but when I finished he had still not returned, so I decided to just leave
I found he had locked me in the kitchen (presumably so I couldn't run off with the spoons) - I had to wait another hour before he returned
I never found out what he did with the turd in the fridge!!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Nov 17 - 06:31 AM

On an earlier thread I pointed out that the poor pay proportionately more tax than the rich. I included a link to the stats that prove this but some of the people on here failed to see the point. I can find it again if you like but the question remains, are we happy that the rich pay a tiny portion of their wealth in tax while the poor pay proportionately more? It seems that some are more than happy with that situation and in supporting it place themselves in the realms of those who cannot be reasoned with.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Nov 17 - 07:26 AM

What was his wife doing in the fridge, Jim?


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Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Nov 17 - 08:15 AM

"What was his wife doing in the fridge, Jim?"
Probably checking if there weer enough turds for tonight's dinner!
Jim Carroll


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