Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them From: Iains Date: 10 Nov 17 - 06:54 AM Luvvin it! https://www.spectator.co.uk/2017/11/another-year-another-tax-leak-and-the-usual-festival-of-hypocrisy/ From the Independant: Jeremy Corbyn, Labour voters like me want a champion for British workers ? not a sandal-wearing socialist with the charisma of an ageing Labrador. Must be a cousin of stevie blunder! |
Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them From: Steve Shaw Date: 10 Nov 17 - 07:03 AM Try to post without insults. |
Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them From: akenaton Date: 10 Nov 17 - 10:21 AM Nice link to the Spectator Iains. |
Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them From: Steve Shaw Date: 10 Nov 17 - 12:41 PM The "tax avoidance" surrounding the setting up of the Scott Trust was done to save the paper from Lord Beaverbrook, that right-wing power-hungry imperialist, would-be appeaser and friend of Lord Rothermere. The Scott family gave up their wealth in favour of the trust and the Guardian has remained a not-for-profit independent newspaper, never owned by a newspaper magnate (they're all great guys, aren't they?) ever since. Not quite the same as multimillionaires shuffling their money round tax havens in order to make even more millions whilst sat on their fat arses while the rest of us make up the deficit, eh? Still, if you really want to make that moral equivalence, all I can say is that it tells us everything we need to know about your own moral standards. |
Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them From: Nigel Parsons Date: 12 Nov 17 - 12:33 PM From: Steve Shaw - PM Date: 10 Nov 17 - 06:30 AM I don't think the Labour Party need take any lectures about hypocrisy from the Daily Express. Quite true. I don't think the Labour Party need lectures on hypocrisy either. |
Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them From: akenaton Date: 13 Nov 17 - 03:45 AM Much too subtle Nigel :0(......5/10. |
Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them From: Jim Carroll Date: 13 Nov 17 - 05:20 AM "Quite true. I don't think the Labour Party need lectures on hypocrisy either." A feeble excuse Nigel There is no argument that our Parliamentary system breeds self-serving greed and hypocrisy (though I have little doubt that you would e the first to deny that fact and defend the status quo The solution to the present situation highlighted in the Paradise Papers lies in the hands of the Government of the day who are (despite all their self-inflicted internal problems) in the position to introduce reforms to end such tax-evading corruption THey will not do so because the Tory Party acts in the interests of those who take advantage of tax loopholes Interesting that you people should move in on Bono while igoring the greedy shenanigans of Madge and Chas! Jim Carroll |
Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them From: Thompson Date: 13 Nov 17 - 05:29 AM Don't most of the Scandinavian countries run a capitalist system efficiently within socialist principles? |
Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them From: Stu Date: 13 Nov 17 - 05:32 AM So now Gove and BoJo, two men without an ounce of integrity between them are ganging up on the increasingly isolated MayBot by sending her intimidating letters telling her she must prepare forgo deal. This not only illustrates the complete shambles of a government that is making the UK a laughing stock, bit also the fact these two dullards don't seem to grasp that no deal would be a disaster; it's the one thing we HAVE to avoid. Please can we have someone competent in charge? Please? |
Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them From: Nigel Parsons Date: 13 Nov 17 - 05:45 AM From: Jim Carroll - PM Date: 13 Nov 17 - 05:20 AM "Quite true. I don't think the Labour Party need lectures on hypocrisy either." A feeble excuse Nigel There was no excuse in there. Steve Shaw made a comment and I agreed. |
Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them From: Jim Carroll Date: 13 Nov 17 - 06:35 AM "There was no excuse in there" Sorry if I have misunderstood you Nigel The point of my posting remains It is within the remit of the Government to block the loopholes - and they won't because they act in the interest of the maggots who crawl through them Jim Carroll |
Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them From: Nigel Parsons Date: 13 Nov 17 - 07:19 AM From: Jim Carroll - PM Date: 13 Nov 17 - 05:20 AM There is no argument that our Parliamentary system breeds self-serving greed and hypocrisy (though I have little doubt that you would e the first to deny that fact and defend the status quo I would only defend the status quo on the basis that, for all its faults, no-one has suggested a better model. The self-serving politicians are many of those who tried to persuade us not to vote for Brexit, as it is a great feeding-trough for politicians. That is a good example of self-interest. The solution to the present situation highlighted in the Paradise Papers lies in the hands of the Government of the day who are (despite all their self-inflicted internal problems) in the position to introduce reforms to end such tax-evading corruption THey will not do so because the Tory Party acts in the interests of those who take advantage of tax loopholes Any such reforms could have been introduced by previous Labour governments. The fact that they have not been means either that Labour politicians are just as self-serving, or the introduction would not be as simple as you seem to think. Interesting that you people should move in on Bono while igoring the greedy shenanigans of Madge and Chas! I have made no mention of Bono, and (assuming by 'Madge & Chas' you mean the Queen and Prince). Several people have already pointed out that the Queen is not evading, or avoiding, taxation. Prince Charles, speaking out on environmental matters (which he has long done) may not have been best advised in view of some of his recent investments. |
Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them From: Raggytash Date: 13 Nov 17 - 07:23 AM "The self-serving politicians are many of those who tried to persuade us not to vote for Brexit, as it is a great feeding-trough for politicians. That is a good example of self-interest" I presume you must mean people like Farage who went back to his 100,000 Euro a year plus expenses as an MEP |
Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them From: Jim Carroll Date: 13 Nov 17 - 07:31 AM "no-one has suggested a better model." How about a government that acts for all instead of only th privileged, or is that beyond the realms of possibility ? Believe it or not, that's what democracy is supposed to be about "The self-serving politicians are many of those who tried to persuade us not to vote for Brexit" Brexit was based on self interest at the expense of the racial minority of Britons and those seeking refuge from wars Britain have supported "Any such reforms could have been introduced by previous Labour governments. " Offshore accounts and tax evasion have come to a head under the present administration - the Blair Government was little more than Conservatism in drag I am not flying the flag for any particular party but you are using inbuilt systematic corruption that allows the wealthy to dodge taxes as an excuse "Several people have already pointed out that the Queen is not evading, or avoiding, taxation" From The4 Financial Times: "In response to the release of the Paradise Papers, the duchy made clear that the Queen does not manage her wealth personally and said: ?We operate a number of investments and a few of these are with overseas funds. All of our investments are fully audited and legitimate.? Madge may not be personally be evading tax but she is employing people who do so on her behalf. The fact that what they do is legal is the point I am making Jim Carroll |
Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them From: Nigel Parsons Date: 13 Nov 17 - 07:46 AM "In response to the release of the Paradise Papers, the duchy made clear that the Queen does not manage her wealth personally and said: ?We operate a number of investments and a few of these are with overseas funds. All of our investments are fully audited and legitimate.? Madge may not be personally be evading tax but she is employing people who do so on her behalf. The fact that what they do is legal is the point I am making As I stated very carefully in the first response of this thread: "Investing abroad is not a crime. The crime is investing abroad with the intention of defrauding the tax authorities. Outward investment supports other countries, and brings profits back to the UK." |
Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them From: Stu Date: 13 Nov 17 - 09:16 AM "Investing abroad is not a crime" Of course "investing" is a mealy mouthed way of putting it, but most people know full well its tax avoidance which might well be legal but is ethically unsound in a society where we all contribute according to our means. Lewis Hamilton or Brenda might well feel chuffed avoiding tax on their wealth, but the truth is they are saying to the rest of us "fuck you, you pay what I can avoid". So proportionality most of us pay far more tax than those who move their money offshore. Which they do to avoid tax, whether by 'investment' or other nefarious means. Meanwhile, other elitist and establishment shitskins (the same ones that fooled Brexiteers into thinking they were somehow distant from all their peers) are now telling their mates to get their money out of the UK before it all goes tits up big style: Pro-Brexit MP John Redwood advised investors to pull money out of the UK Amazing. |
Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them From: Big Al Whittle Date: 13 Nov 17 - 09:38 AM 'Madge may not be personally be evading tax but she is employing people who do so on her behalf. The fact that what they do is legal is the point I am making Jim Carroll' absolutely! she could employ people who weren't twisters. |
Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them From: Jim Carroll Date: 13 Nov 17 - 10:20 AM ""Investing abroad is not a crime.!" You keep making my point for me Nigel If you can't see anything wrong with the wealthiest section of the population being able to avoid tax while the rest of us have to make up the shortfall with NHS hospitals under pressure, increased inflation, and a rapidly expanding gap between have a lots and having nothing... and everything else that being poor in Britain today - well, what can you say other than it's obvious why you defend the system the way you do. Stu just put it in a nutshell - you apparently are allergic to that type of nut! Jim Carroll |
Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them From: Jim Carroll Date: 13 Nov 17 - 02:43 PM "INVESTING" ABROAD Jim Carroll |
Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them From: Steve Shaw Date: 13 Nov 17 - 07:25 PM What I find absolutely amazing, coming from our resident apologists for Charles, the Queen and the rest of the shabby crowd who pay armies of accountants a fortune to "minimise" their tax bills, is that they defend all that whilst scrabbling around to find how lefties "do the same." The bollix about the Guardian, as I've shown, is a brilliant example. So, in one breath they bend over backwards to justify their own tribe's massive tax avoidance ("none of it is actually illegal, old chap, so what are you on about!"), then, in the next breath, condemn those NOT in their tribe for what they see as doing the same thing, except (they forget) that it's a million times smaller and done for motives that do not include piling even more millions on top of even more millions. Keeping an independent newspaper afloat in a sea of right-wing rags (ironically, largely owned by tax avoiders😂😂),for example, or funding struggling public sector pension funds. Hypocrisy personified! |
Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them From: Nigel Parsons Date: 14 Nov 17 - 03:14 AM Same old, same old: From: Steve Shaw - PM Date: 13 Nov 17 - 07:25 PM What I find absolutely amazing, coming from our resident apologists for Charles, the Queen and the rest of the shabby crowd who pay armies of accountants a fortune to "minimise" their tax bills, is that they defend all that whilst scrabbling around to find how lefties "do the same." From The Economist THE grandest name associated with the 'Paradise Papers', leaked documents that shine light on offshore transactions (see article), is that of Queen Elizabeth. The papers reveal that the Duchy of Lancaster, her private estate, invested millions in a Cayman Islands fund. Many of her subjects are nonplussed. Jeremy Corbyn, the leader of the Labour Party, implied that she should apologise, though there is no suggestion of wrongdoing. Yet despite her offshore dealings, the queen actually pays more tax than legally required, not less. |
Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them From: Jim Carroll Date: 14 Nov 17 - 03:41 AM " Yet despite her offshore dealings, the queen actually pays more tax than legally required, not less." And again you make my point Nigel Hiding behind what is "legally allowed" only underlines the fact that the law, made by the wealthy for the wealthy allows the advantaged to dodge taxes Of course we realise any dustman finding himself with a few bob to spare is equally at liberty to invest his savings in The Cayman Islands Is that your argument? THe cap-doffers seem to have movd on from "she didn't know anythingg about it" to "it's ok not to pay tax as long as you can rove your not breaking the law" THE COST TO BRITAIN -probably out of date THE REAL COST of tax evasion Jim Carroll Jim Carroll |
Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them From: Jim Carroll Date: 14 Nov 17 - 04:11 AM PRIORITIES Jim Carroll |
Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them From: Steve Shaw Date: 14 Nov 17 - 05:46 AM You do make our point for us, Nigel. This has never been about illegal activity. It is about the immorality of using legal loopholes, by very rich people or corporations, to increase their billions still further whilst the rest of us struggle to shore up public services, queue for a year or more to get an operation to stop chronic pain, dump a box of cornflakes in the food bank box, buy a Big Issue, see the disabled shat on and watch helplessly as the concept of decent pensions disappears over the horizon. We can't expect you to see it, Nigel. You are a Tory. The Tory Party, first and foremost, is the party of self-interest, no such thing as society, me first, devil take the hindmost, the undeserving poor, Queen and country. And it always has been. When the shady stuff that goes on behind closed doors, preferably offshore, is leaked out and clouds the charade of "Tory decency" it's very embarrassing for you. So you lot scrabble around for the scraps to try to convince us that "lefties do it too." Pathetic! |
Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them From: Jim Carroll Date: 14 Nov 17 - 06:27 AM This behaviour not only underlines the greed of the wealthy and the readiness of the state to accommodate that greed (after all, it was Thatcher who attempted to respectability greed with her parable about the rich not being able to help the poor if it wasn't for their wealth) It's also a reminder, if one were needed, of the contempt in which the not-so-well-off are held I worked for the wealthiest man in Britain once, in one of his five homes in Eaton Square, London He had a luxurious first floor flat and, so his neighbours wouldn't be offended by the rabble coming through the front door, we were instructed to enter by a ladder propped up against the porch, then scramble though a window - this was in the depths of an icy winter. I remember an elderly building labourer just on retirement having to carefully edge up ice-covered rungs. After two weeks I was the last to leave the job, having to finish off the lighting in the kitchen His luddship - The Duke of W... told me he was going out and would return shortly, but when I finished he had still not returned, so I decided to just leave I found he had locked me in the kitchen (presumably so I couldn't run off with the spoons) - I had to wait another hour before he returned I never found out what he did with the turd in the fridge!!! Jim Carroll |
Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them From: Dave the Gnome Date: 14 Nov 17 - 06:31 AM On an earlier thread I pointed out that the poor pay proportionately more tax than the rich. I included a link to the stats that prove this but some of the people on here failed to see the point. I can find it again if you like but the question remains, are we happy that the rich pay a tiny portion of their wealth in tax while the poor pay proportionately more? It seems that some are more than happy with that situation and in supporting it place themselves in the realms of those who cannot be reasoned with. DtG |
Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them From: Steve Shaw Date: 14 Nov 17 - 07:26 AM What was his wife doing in the fridge, Jim? |
Subject: RE: BS: Paradise Papers: It's still us and them From: Jim Carroll Date: 14 Nov 17 - 08:15 AM "What was his wife doing in the fridge, Jim?" Probably checking if there weer enough turds for tonight's dinner! Jim Carroll |