BS: Henry VIII - The Mind of a Tyrant

Subject: RE: BS: Henry VIII - The Mind of a Tyrant
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Nov 17 - 06:51 AM

I don't doubt the awfulness of past popes, Joe, and admit that the ones I named couldn't hold a candle to some of those medieval/renaissance guys in that regard. However, using the possible future saving of lives as an excuse for expedience doesn't wash with me. It's the same excuse that was disingenuously used to exonerate the bombings of Dresden, Hiroshima and Nagasaki. There's also the murky question of antisemitism in the Church and its part leading to the events of the mid-20th century. This culminated in Pius XII putting the interests of the Vatican before the lives of millions of Jews. He vacillated for years in the face of fascism in Italy and of the Nazis before and during the war. Bad things are done by bad men sure enough, but they usually bring a lot of institutional baggage to the commission of those misdeeds. Mussolini and Hitler played Pius XII magnificently. Anyway, back to Henry. Apologies for the diversion.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry VIII - The Mind of a Tyrant
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Nov 17 - 05:18 AM

oh good....only one forty people executed! what a pussycat!

Subject: RE: BS: Henry VIII - The Mind of a Tyrant
From: DaveRo
Date: 12 Nov 17 - 04:52 AM

Acorn4 wrote: I seem to recall that the figure of 70,000 executions was quoted by Hugh Trevor Roper and this worked out at 1 in 25 of the population.

Population of England in 1547 - about 3 million (ref) so 1 in 40 - not far off.

But "the often-quoted figure of 72,000 executions during his reign is inflated" according to wikiP though the source, footnote 160, is not accessible. That the inflation was Catholic propaganda is just my guess.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry VIII - The Mind of a Tyrant
From: Stu
Date: 12 Nov 17 - 04:34 AM

"and Henry didn't reform anything"

He reformed lots, especially how the monarch ruled the country as well as the break with Rome; a brief scan of the acts of parliament during his reign would give some idea of the breadth of his reforms. And there's the destruction. And the death and torture.

It's called the English Reformation for a reason.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry VIII - The Mind of a Tyrant
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Nov 17 - 04:24 AM

Well I don't really agree Joe.

The big thing Henry did for us, protestant wise was the English prayer book and the translated bible Once the translation was widely available, i think it was fairly obvious the Pope was about as infallible as I am with The Times Crossword.

Henry was, at least to my understanding, by nature a Catholic. He loved the judgemental nature of the cult, and arrogated that for him self. The trouble is of course fundamentally with Jesus himself. For a bloke who said Judge not lest ye be judged, he was pretty judgemental himself. Who hasn't felt themselves to be the the chaff the needs to be winnowed from the wheat, the salt that has lost its savour.

it feeds every thought process of clinical depression known to man or woman.

Cromwell was very much a protestant, and he was the only one smart enough to disentangle Henry from Rome. After Cromwell's fall. Henry tried to back pedal on protestant reforms, but he had no one smart enough to cross the t's and dot the i's philosophically or legally.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry VIII - The Mind of a Tyrant
From: Acorn4
Date: 12 Nov 17 - 03:17 AM

I seem to recall that the figure of 70,000 executions was quoted by Hugh Trevor Roper and this worked out at 1 in 25 of the population.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry VIII - The Mind of a Tyrant
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 Nov 17 - 11:48 PM

I'll stick with Alexander VI Borgia, who helped make the Spanish Inquisition into an art form, fathered Lucretia and Cesare Borgia, and no doubt conspired with Ferdinand and Isabella to expel the Jews AND the Moors from Spain.

The others on Raedwulf's list are certainly contenders, but I think history will show Steve Shaw's list to be Hitchens bullshit propaganda. John Paul ignored the sex abuse scandal due to blindness, not malfeasance. I didn't like John Paul II because of his regressive conservativism, but I don't think he was a bad guy. Pius XII and his predecessor Pius XI dealt with the reality of Fascism in quiet, prudent ways - ways that may well have saved tens of thousands of lives. In his infallible hindsight, St. Hitchens would have preferred papal grandstanding - but then Hitchens (and Shaw) would have found fault with that, too.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Henry VIII - The Mind of a Tyrant
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Nov 17 - 08:47 PM

Ten worst popes? Well, we were in Florence in May and we marvelled at the works that the all-powerful Medici family commissioned, including much of Michelangelo's output (we sought out nearly all of it). But what was one of the richest and most influential families in Europe, bankers and politicos that they were, also generated three popes. Hmm. But at least the Medicis, once their influence waned, bequeathed all that art to the world. Kudos. I'll let others argue about their religious machinations. But I don't think you have to look back safely to medieval times to find rotten popes. John-Paul II presided over the institutional sex abuse scandal for many years and did next to nothing. Pius XII colluded with a fascist regime (as did his predecessor) and silently oversaw the removal of hundreds of Jews from under his nose in Vatican City to death camps. He also oversaw the expediting of escape routes to South America at the end of the war for Nazi war criminals, and let's not mention the baleful role of the Church in the Spanish Civil War. Oddly, these guys seem to be first in line for sainthood...

Subject: RE: BS: Henry VIII - The Mind of a Tyrant
From: Raedwulf
Date: 11 Nov 17 - 06:59 PM

Much as I hate to disagree, Joe (what am I saying?! I love disagreeing! ;-) ), "Worst Pope of All Time" is about as undisputed as Heavyweight Champion of the World". Try the below. Your best contenders only rank #5 & #6! ;-)


Ten worst popes of all time

Subject: RE: BS: Henry VIII - The Mind of a Tyrant
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 Nov 17 - 06:46 PM

Now, a good word to describe many of the Popes of the time, is "notorious." I can't say I can find much sympathy for them....

Alexander VI Borgia was Pope 1492-1503, and holds the undisputed title of Worst Pope of All Time. The next Pope, Pius III, died after less than a month in office. The next guy, Pius II, was Pope 1503-1513, was known as "The Warrior Pope" and "The Fearsome Pope." I saw one depiction of him in a gold suit of armor.

Next came Leo X (1513-1521), famous for granting indulgences to those who donated to the reconstruction of St. Peter's Basilica - that inspired Luther to post his 95 Theses. Leo was followed by several Popes of varying levels of notoriety. I should note Julius III (Pope from 1550-1555), who had an interesting relationship with an adopted "nephew." One of my favorites was Pius V (Pope from 1566-72). Pius V has his name on more churches in Rome, than the Richard Dalys have on public buildings in Chicago.

It's great fun to study the notorious Popes of the 16th century. No wonder there was a Reformation.



-Joe, seminary-educated Catholic-

Subject: RE: BS: Henry VIII - The Mind of a Tyrant
From: Raedwulf
Date: 11 Nov 17 - 05:45 PM

As you may gather, DaveRo, I'm with Joe (or he is with me!). As far as I recall, Hal was never a Protestant with a capital P. Not even a protestant with a small p. He disestablished for political / dynastic / matrimonial reasons, call it how you will.

Whilst he made himself Head of the Church, the liturgy & dogma didn't change much, if at all (I'm not an expert on this, so I remain open to correction!). He remained catholic, he just stopped obeying Rome. Perhaps I was unclear in my first comment, but that's what I meant. He didn't go over to any Lutheran or Protestant doctrine; he just stuck two fingers up at the pope. AFAIK...

Subject: RE: BS: Henry VIII - The Mind of a Tyrant
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Nov 17 - 05:38 PM

i understood that Stalin murdered 2 million kulaks and then there were the purges of all state enemies.

whether he killed a larger proportion of his subjects than Henry 8th i don't knpw!

what a pair though!

Subject: RE: BS: Henry VIII - The Mind of a Tyrant
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 Nov 17 - 05:18 PM

Hi, Dave - Henry VIII didn't institute any doctrinal or liturgical changes. His differences with Rome were mostly political, at a time when the Popes were very political.

Infallibility didn't become a dogmatic teaching until 1870, although the concept was widely held for quite some time before that. I don't know what opinions of infallibility were in 1534. Let's just say the Pope had a lot of sway back then.

"Protestant" implies reform, and Henry didn't reform anything. He just disaffiliated the Church of England from the Church of Rome. National churches have always held a degree of autonomy, but Henry made that autonomy more official (kinda like Catalonia, ya know...)

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Henry VIII - The Mind of a Tyrant
From: DaveRo
Date: 11 Nov 17 - 03:40 PM

Joe: I defer to your theological knowledge. But wasn't the 'protest' in 'protestant' against the authority and infallibility of the pope, and didn't Henry - by declaring himself head of the church, and appointed personally by God rather than being subservient to and dependant on the pope for his religious authority - a protestant? Even if he didn't think of himself as one.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry VIII - The Mind of a Tyrant
From: DaveRo
Date: 11 Nov 17 - 03:17 PM

Big Al Whittle wrote: There were,as I remember, 72 thousand executions in England during his reign.

You remember? Plausible estimate - but probably inflated by Catholic propaganda in France and Spain.

Thompson wrote: Stalin was only trotting behind them in terms of killings

"Between 200,000 to 600,000 people died at the hands of the Soviet government during the Purge. (wikiP)

Stu wrote: The dissolution of the monasteries was one of the greatest acts of terror and cultural vandalism ever inflicted on the people of this country.

Terror? Henry wanted their riches - he didn't murder the monks and nuns AFAIK. Cultural vandalism - possibly - but he didn't foresee the leisure industry and tbe National Trust.

The Sandman wrote: all the tudors were despicable unlike richard the third

Henry VII wasn't so bad.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry VIII - The Mind of a Tyrant
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 Nov 17 - 03:11 PM

I think Henry VIII would have been insulted to be called "Protestant." He was head of the Church of England. The Church of England gradually moved into Protestantism after the death of Henry VII, and had a setback during the reign of Henry's Catholic daughter Mary. The Church of England didn't become reliably Protestant until James I became King of England in 1603. The C of E drifted back towards Catholicism in the Oxford Movement of the 19th century. Nowadays, it sometimes seems more Roman than the Romans.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Henry VIII - The Mind of a Tyrant
From: leeneia
Date: 11 Nov 17 - 02:39 PM

Henry took the throne at the age of 18. If I had a son, I would permit him to start driving a car at 18. Ruling a nation? No.

When we study history up to about 1800, it is important to remember that many important rulers were young - teenagers to 35. The results can be awful.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry VIII - The Mind of a Tyrant
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Nov 17 - 02:10 PM

all the tudors were despicable unlike richard the third

Subject: RE: BS: Henry VIII - The Mind of a Tyrant
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Nov 17 - 09:39 AM

life's like that Steve, just cos you can play the banjo or make a decent cup of tea, or have some great talent like that - it doesn't mean you're not an arsehole.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry VIII - The Mind of a Tyrant
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Nov 17 - 08:41 AM

Interesting bloke, Starkey. When it comes to historical interpretation I'd trust his integrity and objectivity to a tee, interesting and engaging, but when he shows up on Question Time (for example) he comes across as an obnoxious, detestable loudmouth. A man of two halves!

Subject: RE: BS: Henry VIII - The Mind of a Tyrant
From: Stu
Date: 11 Nov 17 - 08:35 AM

The dissolution of the monasteries was one of the greatest acts of terror and cultural vandalism ever inflicted on the people of this country. We lost so much in that one act of petulance and many still rue the whole thing to this very day.

Henry was another egotistical bully whose cock-waving idiocy altered the course of history, and the repercussions are still felt today.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry VIII - The Mind of a Tyrant
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Nov 17 - 08:22 AM

There were,as I remember, 72 thousand executions in England during his reign. Given the tiny population of England , about 3 million, - I'd say tyrant was drawing it pretty mild. Absolute bastard is a term which springs readily to mind.

I'm Tudor history nut. I 've loved all of Starkey and Lucy Worsley's programmes. I've visited Hampton Court twice this year. and the great hall at Westminster, The Tower of London and Tower Hill, where poor old Thomas Cromwell and Sir Thomas More got the chop.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry VIII - The Mind of a Tyrant
From: Thompson
Date: 11 Nov 17 - 05:20 AM

Henry and his daughters were monsters. Stalin was only trotting behind them in terms of killings - consider Irish landowners as the kulaks and you'll get an idea - and Elizabeth especially killed many of her courtiers. It wasn't for nothing that she normally slept under her bed holding a sword; she herself reckoned the number of assassination plans against her at 200.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry VIII - The Mind of a Tyrant
From: DaveRo
Date: 10 Nov 17 - 05:25 PM

David Starkey certainly knows a lot about Henry VIII, and doesn't use words carelessly, but I'm surprised by 'tyrant'. The meaning of tyrant has changed since the Greeks invented it, but I think that to be a tyrant you have to usurp power or rule unrestrained by existing law. Henry certainly changed the law over his reign to suit himself and to maintain his dynasty, and to break from the papacy, thereby altering the theoretical and practical basis if his authority, but he used 'legal' methods to do it. I suspect the 'tyrant' in the title is mainly to grab attention.

Henry certainly did 'take England protestant' - and in a more decisive way than in the Holy Roman Empire in what is now Germany. And it was brutal for English Catholics. But perhaps less brutal than the subsequent Wars if Religion between protestants and Catholics in France.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry VIII - The Mind of a Tyrant
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Nov 17 - 04:15 PM

It could happen to you or Joe or me.
Anytime a person is given power their empathy shrinks, they rationalize abuse and corruption. Absolute power changes a person absolutely. imho

If Henry took aim at religion I think it was because he did not want clergy power to reign over his own, not just because he wanted a divorce.
Now why did this not seem to happen to Obama? Because he was not nurtured all his life with power/money like Trump.

I have watched the 50 part series on Showtime but haven't seen yours

power and money, few can escape the arrogance of wealth.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry VIII - The Mind of a Tyrant
From: Raedwulf
Date: 10 Nov 17 - 04:11 PM

As far as I recall, Henry didn't take England protestant. Henry remained catholic. He just disestablished us from Rome. I could well be wrong & am certainly open to correction! But bear in mind that Copper-nose was already 26 when Martin Luther banged nails into that church door. Ed VI & Liz I were both protestant, but I'm less than certain as to the extent that Hal himself was...

Subject: BS: Henry VIII - The Mind of a Tyrant
From: robomatic
Date: 10 Nov 17 - 03:17 PM

I've just been watching a BBC 4-part documentary on Henry VIII by a fellow named Starkey: "Inside the Mind of a Tyrant" I was taken aback by the title- I knew Henry was a tough guy, but I'd always had an admiration for him for his achievements. This documentary had many fascinating bits of news for me, such as:

1) There is an incredible amount of contemporary documentation on Henry and pretty much everyone else of the time because there were detailed records kept of decrees by English courtiers and Henry himself.
2) There is an incredible amount of contemporary documentation on the English court taken down by European 'spies' who sent detailed coded dispatches back to their governments which are still available.
3) Henry not only took England Protestant but had a great deal of personal involvement in the new theological paradigm. He launched it because of his problems getting a divorce from Catherine, but also because Anne Boleyn was very much in favor of the new direction, and after her demise it turned out there were many others at least as radical as she.
4) Henry instituted the new religion, currently known as "Church of England" with a lot of blood and terror. The documentary did not go into numbers, but made it clear that Henry had people killed throughout England, making sure to include both Roman Catholics and too-radical Protestants. By making himself head of the Church, Henry was taking charge of his subjects' souls as well as their bodies.
5) One of the things I found most moving were cases where some of the important condemned people sent personal letters to Henry begging him for an execution that was merely 'death' as opposed to more exotic punishments for treason such as drawing and quartering.

The above does not change my opinion of Henry, but fleshes out what power really meant in the Europe of the past, and what it means in many parts of the world today. Henry was of course a ruler and person of his time, and he exercised his power in aid of definite goals.

Have any of you seen this documentary and formed opinions of it. Are we living in the world created by Henry VIII?