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Songs about conflict from other side

Sarah the flute 24 Nov 17 - 05:19 AM
GUEST,Gerry 24 Nov 17 - 05:52 AM
GUEST,David Carter (UK) 24 Nov 17 - 06:16 AM
Brian Peters 24 Nov 17 - 08:05 AM
Jack Campin 24 Nov 17 - 09:31 AM
Dave Sutherland 24 Nov 17 - 11:17 AM
GUEST,Phil d'Conch 24 Nov 17 - 01:24 PM
Jim Dixon 24 Nov 17 - 01:33 PM
Jim Carroll 24 Nov 17 - 01:35 PM
The Sandman 24 Nov 17 - 01:57 PM
Jack Campin 24 Nov 17 - 02:37 PM
Jim Carroll 24 Nov 17 - 02:54 PM
meself 24 Nov 17 - 03:11 PM
Jack Campin 24 Nov 17 - 04:22 PM
GUEST 25 Nov 17 - 01:39 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Nov 17 - 03:39 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Nov 17 - 04:06 AM
Ged Fox 26 Nov 17 - 04:51 AM
Jack Campin 26 Nov 17 - 09:28 AM
GUEST,Phil d'Conch 27 Nov 17 - 02:26 AM
Sarah the flute 27 Nov 17 - 05:19 AM
GUEST,henryp 28 Nov 17 - 10:36 AM
GUEST,henryp 28 Nov 17 - 10:44 AM
Jack Campin 28 Nov 17 - 10:49 AM
GUEST,henryp 28 Nov 17 - 10:54 AM
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Subject: Songs about conflict from other side
From: Sarah the flute
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 05:19 AM

No this isn't a request for songs about fighting ghosts ...sorry!

My friend who works in an international school library in Germany is trying to find books, poems and SONGS that have been written about the losing side or "other side" in conflicts around the world. She doesn't want anything about the two world wars but other conflicts

Any suggestions would be great
I have considered Irish Rebel songs and some Napoleonic songs such as The Bonny Bunch of Roses and Isle of St Helena

Cheers

Sarah


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Subject: RE: Songs about conflict from other side
From: GUEST,Gerry
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 05:52 AM

Ballad of the Green Berets?


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Subject: RE: Songs about conflict from other side
From: GUEST,David Carter (UK)
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 06:16 AM

The Bastard of Normandy, as sung by the late Janet Jones. Written long after the events of course.


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Subject: RE: Songs about conflict from other side
From: Brian Peters
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 08:05 AM


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Subject: RE: Songs about conflict from other side
From: Jack Campin
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 09:31 AM

There are a shitload of Turkish songs about losing WW1 - hours of nonstop gloom. Would that do?

A great instrumental tune about a total and almost forgotten military catastrophe is the Swedish "Karolinermarschen". The sixteenth-century song "Italia mia" (done by a lot of Renaissance music groups) seems to have been written to mark the annihilation of Italy as a nation-state in the invasion of the 1520s.

There are some very fine laments for Che Guevara - "Hasta siempre" from Latin America and "Guevara mat" from a North African Arab composer (that one will be a bastard to play if you don't know the idiom).

I posted here on the centenary of the Battle of Gorizia - there were three sides involved and arguably all of them lost. (The Slovenians definitely lost, with their city blasted to rubble, but their song isn't as interesting as the Italian and Hungarian ones).

Sometimes more indirect statements are made. One of the most popular songs among Palestinians is Fairuz's "Nassam alayna al-Hawa", but it isn't about military defeat, it's non-specifically about the nostalgia of exile (and wasn't even by a Palestinian).


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Subject: RE: Songs about conflict from other side
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 11:17 AM

"Dunlavin Green" Ireland 1798


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Subject: RE: Songs about conflict from other side
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 01:24 PM

The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down
(Robbie Robertson, 1966)

Written a full century after the American Civil War, and by a Canadian no less, it's still considered one of the better songs written from the Rebel perspective.

Joan Baez had a pretty good run with it in 1971 (#3 on Billboard Hot 100.)

YT: Joan Baez: The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down


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Subject: RE: Songs about conflict from other side
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 01:33 PM

This may not be the kind of thing you have in mind, but Johnny Horton recorded two versions of his hit song THE BATTLE OF NEW ORLEANS, one for release in the US, and another intended for the Commonweath countries (although it's not the version some of our Australian Mudcatters remember hearing, so maybe this plan was not put into effect?). The Commonwealth version shifts the point of view to the British side and calls the Americans "bloomin' rebels" where the original had "bloody British." Also, "Jackson" is changed to "Packenham" but mostly only pronouns are changed: "they" is changed to "we" and so on.

I just posted the Commonwealth version here. A good copy of Horton's American version can be found here..


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Subject: RE: Songs about conflict from other side
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 01:35 PM

Probably the best known Irish one

Se?n ? Duibhir A' Ghleanna
Words: Translated from the Irish by Canon Patrick Sheehan (1852- 1913)

After Aughrim's great disaster when our foe, in sooth, was master
It was you who first plunged in and swam The Shannon's boiling flood.
And through Sliabh Bloom's dark passes when you led your Gallowglasses
Although the hungry Saxon wolves were howling for your blood.
And as we crossed Tipperary we rived the Clan O' Leary
And we drove a creach before us as our horsemen onward came.
With our swords and spears we gored them as through flood and tide we bore them.
Ah but Se?n ? Duibhir A' Ghleanna you were worsted in the game.

It was long, long we kept the hillside and our couch hard by the rillside
With the sturdy knotted oaken boughs our curtain overhead.
And the summer sun we laughed at, oh the winter snow we scoffed at
And we trusted in our long bright swords to win us daily bread.
Till the Dutchman's troops came round us, in fire and sword they bound us,
They blazed the woods and mountains till the very clouds were flame.
Yet our sharpened swords cut through them, to their very hearts we hewed them
Ah but Se?n ? Duibhir A' Ghleanna you were worsted in the game.

So here's a health to yours and my king, the sovereign of our liking
And to Sarsfield, underneath whose flag, we'll cast once more a chance.
For the morning dawn will wing us all across the seas and bring us,
To take a stand and to wield a brand among the sons of France.
And though we part in sorrow still, Se?n ? Duibhir a chara ,
Our prayer is God save Ireland and pour blessings on her name.
May her sons be true when needed, may they never fail as we did,
For Se?n ? Duibhir A' Ghleanna you were worsted in the game.

NICE RENDITION HERE

Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Songs about conflict from other side
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 01:57 PM

battle of bosworth field
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHql-Taq8DA


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Subject: RE: Songs about conflict from other side
From: Jack Campin
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 02:37 PM

"The Battle of Maldon" (Anglo-Saxon poem on losing a battle to the Norse).

"Mac Crimmon Will Never Return" (partly faked by Walter Scott but still pretty impressive - look for Sheila Chandra's hair-raising version).

Jose Rizal's "The Valedictory" ("Crown and deep of my sorrows"), written when he was about to be executed by the Spanish for leading the Philippine resistance.

"Els Segadors", now the national anthem of Catalonia, about their defeat by Spain in the 17th century.


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Subject: RE: Songs about conflict from other side
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 02:54 PM

MacCrimmond
OR TRY THIS
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Songs about conflict from other side
From: meself
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 03:11 PM

Un Canadien errant. In the voice of a 'Patriote' in exile after the 1837 rebellion in Quebec.

There are a couple of songs - or variations of one original - by/about Louis Riel, after his defeat in the 1885 rebellion.


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Subject: RE: Songs about conflict from other side
From: Jack Campin
Date: 24 Nov 17 - 04:22 PM

A small warning: songs about defeat have a way of turning into anthemic expressions of vicious nationalist resentment. That has happened to a lot of Irish songs, it's happened on occasion with Scottish Jacobite ones, and it happens on an industrial scale in the Balkans. Don't feed such tendencies.


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Subject: RE: Songs about conflict from other side
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Nov 17 - 01:39 AM

No shortage of material Sarah, I would think that the most songs written at the time about any conflict "from the other side" were written by the side that came in second. Songs about conflict written many years after tend to fall into the traps of hindsight and wishful mythology.

Jack Campin's small warning above is very well stated and extremely apposite.


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Subject: RE: Songs about conflict from other side
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Nov 17 - 03:39 AM

"That has happened to a lot of Irish songs,"#Not just Irish songs
The Scots, 'The Haughs of Cromdale' is the result of a defeat of the Jacobite army due to the officers getting drunk and forgetting to place sentries on watch, leading to an undignified route by the entire army.
The Scots ballad maker found it necessary to invent a second battle in which the tables were turned and the English received the thrashing
Any defeated nation is capable of turning defeat into victory in this way - our politicians are still doing so regularly.
In most of the Irish songs, particularly the Fenian ones of 19798, 1845 and 1867, they make no pretence of their defeats, but use them as inspirations to carry on the struggle.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Songs about conflict from other side
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Nov 17 - 04:06 AM

"19798"
Should be 1798 of course
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Songs about conflict from other side
From: Ged Fox
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 04:51 AM

"have a way of turning into anthemic expressions of vicious nationalist resentment"
It's a fine line between maintaining dignity, identity or whatever after defeat and perpetuating a sulky resentment.
For example, "Flowers of the Forest" (in Jeannie Elliot's version), words more or less contemporaneous with the Hanoverian oppression of Scotland, is one of the world's great songs of the defeated.
"Flower of Scotland", on the other hand, is just a whinging cringing expression of vicious nationalist resentment.


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Subject: RE: Songs about conflict from other side
From: Jack Campin
Date: 26 Nov 17 - 09:28 AM

Flower of Scotland is actually about a victory, it just whines about it so annoyingly you get the impression we lost.


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Subject: RE: Songs about conflict from other side
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 27 Nov 17 - 02:26 AM

Two American poems:

Evangeline, A Tale of Acadie, Henry Wadsworth Longfellow, 1847. Also written a century after events and not by the subject losing side (Acadian) as it were.


Throwing the Wanga (St. John's Eve), M.E.M. Davis, 1894. Reconstruction era Louisiana.

Lyrics here:
https://mudcat.org/detail.cfm?messages__Message_ID=3867037


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Subject: RE: Songs about conflict from other side
From: Sarah the flute
Date: 27 Nov 17 - 05:19 AM

Wow

This is an impressive list. Thank you so much everyone. Sorry I've been away gigging over the weekend so haven't had a chance to catch up with this. There is certainly some great stuff here to pass on and something a bit different for my friend's classes to get their teeth into

Sarah


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Subject: RE: Songs about conflict from other side
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 28 Nov 17 - 10:36 AM

Sir James Radcliffe, Earl of Derwentwater, (1689-1716) spent part of his youth as the companion of the young James VIII at Saint-Germain-en-Laye. He received permission to return to England in 1709 and quickly established himself as the leader of the Jacobites in Northumberland. Following his capture at Preston and execution in London he became a tragic hero of songs and ballads.

Derwentwater's Farewell

Farewell to pleasant Dilston Hall,
My father’s ancient seat;
A stranger now must call thee his,
Which gars my heart to greet.
Farewell each friendly well-known face,
My heart has held so dear:
My tenants now must leave their lands,
Or hold their lives in fear.

Lord Allenwater/Lord Derwentwater

The King has wrote a long letter
And sealed it up with gold
And sent it unto Lord Allenwater
To read it if he could.

The first two lines Lord Allenwater read
They struck him with surprise
And the next two lines Lord Allenwater read
Made tears fall from his eyes.


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Subject: RE: Songs about conflict from other side
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 28 Nov 17 - 10:44 AM

"Viva la Quinta Brigada" (listed as "Viva la Quince Brigada" in later recordings) is a Christy Moore song about the Irishmen who fought in the Spanish Civil War against Franco. The title was inspired by a Spanish song about the war, 'Viva la Quince Brigada'.

Moore wrote this song choosing to focus on the Irish socialist volunteers (who in later years became known as the Connolly Column) who were a small contingent within the 15th International Brigade. The song was inspired by Spanish Civil War veteran Michael O'Riordan's book Connolly Column.


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Subject: RE: Songs about conflict from other side
From: Jack Campin
Date: 28 Nov 17 - 10:49 AM

The other familiar Northumbrian Jacobite number is "Sir John Fenwick's the Flower Among Them All", though Fenwick's role was in a series of conspiracies rather than military conflict like Derwentwater.


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Subject: RE: Songs about conflict from other side
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 28 Nov 17 - 10:54 AM

The Saint Patrick's Battalion formed and led by John Riley, was a unit of 175 to several hundred immigrants (accounts vary) and expatriates of European descent who fought as part of the Mexican Army against the United States in the Mexican–American War of 1846–8.

San Patricios on BBC

See also The Chieftains - San Patricio Album


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