BS: Damian Green

Subject: BS: Damian Green
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Dec 17 - 08:06 PM

This bloke appears to have downloaded and viewed pornographic images by the thousand on his House of Commons computer. Naturally, he denies this. If he was really innocent, he'd be threatening to sue. But he isn't.

So an ex-copper who was investigating the now-proven allegations that Green was a leaker-in-chief has now blown the whistle on this greasy, slimy Tory. Naturally, the establishment in their droves are crawling out of the woodwork in order to defend him. 'Twas ever thus.

So where does this leave us on Royal weddings? Most dark beers taste burnt. The worst offender is draught Guinness, which relies on burnt malt for its bitterness rather than hops. Guinness is not a highly-hopped beer. Basically that means it isn't especially good for you. Frankly, it's a bloody poor do.

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Iains
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 04:08 AM

There are bad apples in every barrel.
As yet the above post is claim and counter claim with a whiff of a political agenda from certain of the police.

Would you like a list of PROVEN Labour naughty boys?

Have you got bored babbling about brexit?
Time we had another update on weeds and cheap booze isn't it?
or perhaps you have upgraded to meths!

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Mr Red
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 05:44 AM

we have several problems here

1) pornography on a works computer - pornography is a well known vector for malware. There would be records from that time - police notebooks, statements at an inquiry. On any works computer it is a concern, on a government PC it is a security issue. RBS had problems, TK MAX, Uber and a load of outfits who haven't come clean, how did they happen? Who knows? But the weakest link in a computer system is the human, and there are enough of them to fall for phishing in any outfit. It only takes one!

2) integrity of police officers is called into question. Retired police officers are not bound by the same disciplinary code as serving officers. But it does impact the image of the police.

3) There is a cover up, which may be in the interests of the country's security, but see 1). You choose which takes precedence in the long shadow of Russian interference in elections and referenda.

4) the only reason that Labour politicians are not dragged into such an issue is chance.

5) Politicians spend long hours on government business, and marriages suffer as a result. It was proposed 40 years ago by a serving MP that: "there is a case for a Westminster brothel to be set up". Surely there is a case for parliament to provide safe PCs for extra curricular surfing for the same reason.

BTW parliamentary bed hopping is nothing new. I was told by the son of Harold Wilson's solicitor that there was a contractual agreement drawn up for his wife to not pursue divorce over adultery with Marcia Williams. And the Marcia connection has been confirmed since by many who were there at the time.

It's a jungle out there.

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 06:16 AM

The ex officers did not report it at the time.
Even they admit they had no proof it was Green anyway.
It was not illegal anyway.
No crime was committed.
It was ten years ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Iains
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 06:26 AM

Any person that mixes business with "pleasure" on a works computer is either exceedingly naive, or a reckless fool. For any MP to do a similar thing is also rather dumb. What is found on an internet linked computer may not solely be due to the efforts of the owner, especially if targeted.

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 06:29 AM

Anyone who downloads pornographic material, via his employer's network, on to his employer-provided Work-computer has, by so doing, proved that he is far too stupid to be trusted with the responsibilities of high office.

Just as I would have been fired for Gross Misconduct if I'd done it on my work-computer, he should be fired - on the basis of Gross Misconduct, and that he is too stupid to be a government minister.

Game, set and match.

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 06:35 AM

Sorry about that last paragraph. It shouldn't be in this thread, obviously. I thought I'd already corrected it. Grr.

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 06:37 AM

He denies it, and there is no evidence for it except the claims, ten years later, of ex-cops with a grudge.

Accusations alone should not be enough to end someone's career.

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 06:37 AM

Perfect analysis, John!

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 06:43 AM

The ex-cop may be genuinely acting in what he now considers to be the public interest, now that Green is effectively second-in-command of the country. When the material first came to light (during an investigation that showed Green to be dishonest, by the way), Green was not a member of the government. The accusation against Green holds far more water than your accusation that the cop has a grudge, an accusation for which you have no evidence.

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 06:45 AM

. What is found on an internet linked computer may not solely be due to the efforts of the owner, especially if targeted.

If that is what has happened, I would say it warrants a far more extensive investigation than the porn itself. It posits a third party with write access (and therefore read access) to a PC which contains secure information. That matters.

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 06:56 AM

Moving on from well-tilled ground, Keith. What is your view on the content and timing of what are being reported as "nine new red lines" by Rees Mogg and co?

(Personally, I don't that all are reasonably described as 'new' but it is at least fair to call them re-emphasised).

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 06:57 AM

Sorry, wrong thread!

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 06:58 AM

The policeman has said that it's inconceivable that Green had not viewed the porn. I take it from that that the stuff wasn't particularly hiding behind hard passwords, etc. If Green knew that the porn was there but that someone else had installed it, he would have done what the rest of us would have done in the same circumstances: made a bloody great big stink about it. Which he didn't do. What if I'd found porn on my school laptop, did nothing about it and then had it discovered by the head? I'd be sacked, that's what.

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Iains
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 07:02 AM

DMcG. Rumour has it that the whips have a little black book that enables them to keep certain MPs malleable.
   It follows on that it is no stretch to the imagination that other persons/groups/countries seek similar means of control. If company computers in one country can be troubleshooted by the IT dept. in another country, then I am sure Joe Bloggs computer is very vulnerable to hacking. I wonder just what security protocols exist for the computer/s of an MP. Posession of pornography does no favours to a reputation and certain forms of pornography will destroy it.

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 07:07 AM

"He denies it"

Well he would, wouldn't he?

"There is no evidence for it"

It will be a networked computer. There will be an audit-trail which will carry evidence of the person whose account was logged-in at the time the material was downloaded. Are you claiming that this audit-trail doesn't exist? Where is your evidence?

"Except the claims....of ex-cops with a grudge"

Where is your evidence of this simply being a matter of them holding a 'grudge'? Do you know the gentlemen personally? Have you discussed their views with them?

"It was ten years ago"

Are you claiming that their is a Time-Limitation on government ministers' Gross Misconduct? Evidence that this is the case?

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 07:17 AM

"There is a Time-Limitation..."!,
Bloody iPad predictive text!

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 07:19 AM

Which exactly why, Iains, a deeper investigation would be needed.

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 07:31 AM

"Even they admit they had no proof it was Green anyway. It was not illegal anyway."
A pathetic excuse to absolve the behaviour of an elected member of Parliament
The police haven't said there was no proof - they said that the pornography found was not their business and should have been dealt with within the political 'freemasons' system
It was 'bad form' for the policemen to blow the gaff was the statement by a retired police official that was broadcast on yesterday's news
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 07:34 AM

To give this affair a bit of context - try this (can'r 'blue-clickie' it
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/parliament-computers-made-250000-attempts-to-access-pornography-at-palace-of-westminster-10418449.html
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 07:35 AM

Two Years earlier
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/parliaments-porn-habit-revealed-as-300000-attempts-made-to-access-adult-websites-from-work-computers-8797386.html
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 08:13 AM

No wonder they're all closing ranks in order to close down the subject of Gross Misconduct in the corridors of power - behaviour which, in any other working environment, would carry the penalty of instant dismissal.

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 08:19 AM

And, of course, there's still the subject of the >100 files documenting the investigation into MP's paedophilia, which were so conveniently 'lost' by our erstwhile Home Secretary, now our 'Strong and Stable' (vomit) Prime Minister.

If I'd lost 100+ files containing employee details, I'd have been down the road tout de suite, not promoted to Chief Exec.

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 08:40 AM

the cop has a grudge, an accusation for which you have no evidence.
The cop said his career had been blighted by the encounter.

during an investigation that showed Green to be dishonest, by the way

Please explain and justify that accusation.

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 09:00 AM

He was in possession of leaked documents disadvantageous to the then Labour government. The lackey who provided him with the documents was sacked. Nothing said: he let the establishment look after him (which included the police keeping quiet about the porn), faux-outrage to the fore, just as they're trying to do now. He is not a fit and proper person to be in his current exalted position. Anyway, his days are numbered. That's a confident prediction.

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Iains
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 09:06 AM

http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2013/09/05/mps-private-porn-habits-contradict-their-public-statements

5 years old this link above.

Perhaps for the sake of balance we should be given access to the porn viewing habits of all mps over the last 10 years.

A considerable percentage of internet traffic is porn. The amount of power that wastes is not very green.

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 09:12 AM

It has long been established that pornography and sexual misconduct (INCLUDING PAEDOPHELIA ) has long been a way of life in Westminster
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 09:20 AM

Just a reminder, chaps, that this is about pornography on his work computer.

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Iains
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 09:23 AM

A little balance from the Guardian no less.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/dec/01/damian-green-porn-work-police-mp

No offence has been committed.

What did happen was that the labour government raided MP's offices in an action worthy of a totalitarian regime, and the police by holding data illegally were guilty of an offence.

The true story

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/5165813/Damian-Green-scandal-How-a-ministers-frustration-led-to-the-arrest.html

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 09:39 AM

Steve, of course John does a fine analysis. Haven't you noticed he reliably gets it right the first time in one post.
The pack grumbles, grovels and growls for days while Mr. Red moves on free as the wind. He has even called American politics correctly over a year in advance.

btw When someone pulls a Damian here, they get fired.

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Iains
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 10:03 AM

"Just a reminder, chaps, that this is about pornography on his work computer."

I don't think so.

Under our constitution the House of Commons is de facto the sovereign power.
Therefore the MPs run the show and do everything - pay their wages, set their wages and so forth and have no superiors i.e. employers - just as long as they can get permission from voters every 5 years or so.

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 11:18 AM

Sorry, mate, this whole shenanigans is about porn on his work computer.

From your Telegraph link:

In October Chris Wright, the Director of Security and Intelligence at the Cabinet Office, wrote to Bob Quick, the Assistant Commissioner for Special Operations, to seek a criminal investigation. The letter claimed that there had been "considerable damage to national security already" and the "potential for future damage is significant".
Within three weeks the Police were on the case after it appeared that Mr Galley made his fist [sic] mistake. The Tories had been passed a document that appeared to be a letter from the Home Secretary to the Prime Minister warning that crime figures would rise in the coming recession. It was only a draft, the letter was never sent.
On November 19 the police questioned Mr Galley and over the next 17 hours it became clear that he had regularly supplied Mr Green. While it is not an offence to be a passive recipient of leaked documents, anyone who incites a public servant to break a confidence can be at risk of arrest. The next day Mr Quick was told that a senior MP was implicated in the leaks so he sought "legal advice" because of concerns about "Parliamentary privilege and the rights of the police on the Parliamentary estate".
Warrants were obtained for Mr Green's home and constituency offices but crucially not for his Parliamentary office. The police were told that under the terms of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act unless consent was refused by the Parliamentary authorities, one was not required.

Green was the willing recipient of leaked documents. That, in addition to the pornography found on his computer that he appears never to have complained about (wouldn't you if you thought someone had installed it on your computer?), adds up to a bloke who is unfit for public office, his integrity in tatters. It could well be that he's adding lying to his list of transgressions now. Can't be sure for now, of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Iains
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 11:26 AM

My minor argument is about the description "work Computer"

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 11:46 AM

"Not a police matter"
I wonder if this would have been the response if it had been a teacher who was found to have been discovered downloading porn!!
Or a doctot
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-506652/Doctor-admits-downloading-porn-hospital-computers.html
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 11:58 AM

As I said, the faux-outraged establishment come out in their droves like attack-dogs to protect him. That copper had better have the hide of a rhino.

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Iains
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 12:22 PM

John 8:7


https://www.churchmilitant.com/news/article/new-survey-of-porn-use-shows-startling-stats-for-men-and-women

How many reading this have watched no porn on their own computers?

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 12:36 PM

Is that the right question? How many have used their work computer? At a time, and if the reported numbers are a guide, to an extent when they were being paid to do something else?


What people do in their own time is their own concern if it is legal. What they do in work time is another matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 12:43 PM

Brings to mind the Tories versus cops row about a posh boy tory calling a hard working policeman a pleb...

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 12:54 PM

What about them high and mighty moral guardians paid to, or volunteering, to view porn
in order to safeguard us weak minded citizens from it's harmful effects..
Viewing it day after day so they can pass judgements on what we mere mortals are not allowed to see...


Maybe Green could use that excuse...???

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 12:59 PM

There was an interesting R4 programme a few weeks back about the people who work for facebook and the like who job it is to watch all this stuff and violent videos and so on to decide whether it should be taken off the site. Apparently few can last more than a year and they can be seriously damaged in their ability to relate to other people.

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 01:07 PM

As I said, that cop had better be thick-skinned.

"How many reading this have watched no porn on their own computers?"

Me. I'm virulently anti-pornography, I don't look at it on my computers and never have done, and I certainly don't agree that any pornography can be victimless. Even bare bum 'n' tit-wagging in shagging scenes on telly revolt me. However, porn exists, much of it is legal, unfortunately, and it's not my business if someone chooses to use porn in the privacy of their own homes (sad buggers in my opinion, but hey). But this was a computer provided for him to do the important work he was paid to do, not use it to download fodder for his little worktime "diversions."

Maybe you think that colours my view of this issue. And maybe it does.

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Iains
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 01:08 PM

"What people do in their own time is their own concern if it is legal. What they do in work time is another matter."
For an MP such categorisation is not quite as straightforward. How do you define work time and works computer for an MP.

This does not excuse reckless behaviour and gives rise to legitimate security concerns. Especially when GCHQ and NSA at menwith hill hoover up all electronic communications.

http://www.computerweekly.com/news/450297574/MPs-private-emails-are-routinely-accessed-by-GCHQ
Just emails? I suspect not.

The faux outrage here is very selective. Do you seriously believe only one MP is guilty?
I think the real danger highlighted here is the way a part of the executive has a means to pressurize the legislative.
(Just like over the pond)

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 01:09 PM

"How many reading this have watched no porn on their own computers?"
What's youyr point?
We are talking bout elected representatives of the British People who constantly prate about what is right for society and what isn't
If there is any relevance to yor link it is just how available modern society allows the distribution of porn
The only people in a position to do something about it appear to be up to their uxters in it
It's a mystery how they manage to get any work done while one of their hands is in use for another purpose!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 01:23 PM

I'm quite happy for any MP to have their work activities scrutinised, subject to genuine security considerations, and so should they. What did they expect? In this case we are talking about questions over the integrity of a man who, above all else, should be squeaky clean. He's May's right-hand man fer Chrissake. We already know that he was gleefully accepting leaked papers that were intended for undermining the government of the day. Now we hear that there was porn on that computer, his computer, and he's protesting ignorance. Really?

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 01:50 PM

"It's a mystery how they manage to get any work done while one of their hands is in use for another purpose!"

"He's May's right-hand man"

"My Right Honourable Friend, the member for [constituency]"


.. so that explains that then...

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Iains
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 02:09 PM

"We already know that he was gleefully accepting leaked papers that were intended for undermining the government of the day"

Rein in the mock outrage shaw.
Politicians do the dirty on one another every opportunity.


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/election-97-tory-election-posters-leaked-to-labour-1269270.html

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 02:53 PM

Well, Iains, first of all " they're all at it anyway". Is not a justification for wrongdoing. Second, let me just remind you of an Extract from your own link:

In October Chris Wright, the Director of Security and Intelligence at the Cabinet Office, wrote to Bob Quick, the Assistant Commissioner for Special Operations, to seek a criminal investigation. The letter claimed that there had been "considerable damage to national security already" and the "potential for future damage is significant".

Whatever the other rights and wrongs of leaking documents, there is a difference of several degrees at least between a mole in an ad agency leaking election leaflets and a director of intelligence worrying about national security. Coxes and comices...

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 03:01 PM

"Rein in the mock outrage shaw."
Every time you post something like this you prove that something is rotten in the State of Britain and in need of reform
Like your view on pornography, that fact that many people do it doesn't make it any less wrong
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 03:03 PM

"How many reading this have watched no porn on their computers?"

Well I, for one, haven't - I have a fantastic wife and a great marriage, why would I want to spend my time watching wank-sites? Don't judge everyone else by your own sordid standards.


Now, since Mr. A of H seems to have missed my earlier post, here it is again....

"He denies it"

Well he would, wouldn't he?

"There is no evidence for it"

It will be a networked computer. There will be an audit-trail which will carry evidence of the person whose account was logged-in at the time the material was downloaded. Are you claiming that this audit-trail doesn't exist? Where is your evidence?

"Except the claims....of ex-cops with a grudge"

Where is your evidence of this simply being a matter of them holding a 'grudge'? Do you know the gentlemen personally? Have you discussed their views with them?

"It was ten years ago"

Are you claiming that there is a Time-Limitation on government ministers' Gross Misconduct? Evidence that this is the case?

We're waiting.....

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 03:08 PM

Steve,
He was in possession of leaked documents disadvantageous to the then Labour government.

Was he? Nothing was found by the police. Where did you get that from Steve?

When the material first came to light (during an investigation that showed Green to be dishonest, by the way),

Really? Where did you get that from?