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BS: Damian Green

Steve Shaw 02 Dec 17 - 08:06 PM
Iains 03 Dec 17 - 04:08 AM
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Mr Red 06 Dec 17 - 04:41 PM
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Mr Red 07 Dec 17 - 04:39 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Dec 17 - 05:09 AM
Dave the Gnome 07 Dec 17 - 05:13 AM
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Keith A of Hertford 07 Dec 17 - 05:20 AM
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Subject: BS: Damian Green
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Dec 17 - 08:06 PM

This bloke appears to have downloaded and viewed pornographic images by the thousand on his House of Commons computer. Naturally, he denies this. If he was really innocent, he'd be threatening to sue. But he isn't.

So an ex-copper who was investigating the now-proven allegations that Green was a leaker-in-chief has now blown the whistle on this greasy, slimy Tory. Naturally, the establishment in their droves are crawling out of the woodwork in order to defend him. 'Twas ever thus.

So where does this leave us on Royal weddings? Most dark beers taste burnt. The worst offender is draught Guinness, which relies on burnt malt for its bitterness rather than hops. Guinness is not a highly-hopped beer. Basically that means it isn't especially good for you. Frankly, it's a bloody poor do.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Iains
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 04:08 AM

There are bad apples in every barrel.
As yet the above post is claim and counter claim with a whiff of a political agenda from certain of the police.

Would you like a list of PROVEN Labour naughty boys?

Have you got bored babbling about brexit?
Time we had another update on weeds and cheap booze isn't it?
or perhaps you have upgraded to meths!


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Mr Red
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 05:44 AM

we have several problems here

1) pornography on a works computer - pornography is a well known vector for malware. There would be records from that time - police notebooks, statements at an inquiry. On any works computer it is a concern, on a government PC it is a security issue. RBS had problems, TK MAX, Uber and a load of outfits who haven't come clean, how did they happen? Who knows? But the weakest link in a computer system is the human, and there are enough of them to fall for phishing in any outfit. It only takes one!

2) integrity of police officers is called into question. Retired police officers are not bound by the same disciplinary code as serving officers. But it does impact the image of the police.

3) There is a cover up, which may be in the interests of the country's security, but see 1). You choose which takes precedence in the long shadow of Russian interference in elections and referenda.

4) the only reason that Labour politicians are not dragged into such an issue is chance.

5) Politicians spend long hours on government business, and marriages suffer as a result. It was proposed 40 years ago by a serving MP that: "there is a case for a Westminster brothel to be set up". Surely there is a case for parliament to provide safe PCs for extra curricular surfing for the same reason.

BTW parliamentary bed hopping is nothing new. I was told by the son of Harold Wilson's solicitor that there was a contractual agreement drawn up for his wife to not pursue divorce over adultery with Marcia Williams. And the Marcia connection has been confirmed since by many who were there at the time.

It's a jungle out there.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 06:16 AM

The ex officers did not report it at the time.
Even they admit they had no proof it was Green anyway.
It was not illegal anyway.
No crime was committed.
It was ten years ago.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Iains
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 06:26 AM

Any person that mixes business with "pleasure" on a works computer is either exceedingly naive, or a reckless fool. For any MP to do a similar thing is also rather dumb. What is found on an internet linked computer may not solely be due to the efforts of the owner, especially if targeted.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 06:29 AM

Anyone who downloads pornographic material, via his employer's network, on to his employer-provided Work-computer has, by so doing, proved that he is far too stupid to be trusted with the responsibilities of high office.

Just as I would have been fired for Gross Misconduct if I'd done it on my work-computer, he should be fired - on the basis of Gross Misconduct, and that he is too stupid to be a government minister.

Game, set and match.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 06:35 AM

Sorry about that last paragraph. It shouldn't be in this thread, obviously. I thought I'd already corrected it. Grr.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 06:37 AM

He denies it, and there is no evidence for it except the claims, ten years later, of ex-cops with a grudge.

Accusations alone should not be enough to end someone's career.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 06:37 AM

Perfect analysis, John!


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 06:43 AM

The ex-cop may be genuinely acting in what he now considers to be the public interest, now that Green is effectively second-in-command of the country. When the material first came to light (during an investigation that showed Green to be dishonest, by the way), Green was not a member of the government. The accusation against Green holds far more water than your accusation that the cop has a grudge, an accusation for which you have no evidence.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 06:45 AM

. What is found on an internet linked computer may not solely be due to the efforts of the owner, especially if targeted.

If that is what has happened, I would say it warrants a far more extensive investigation than the porn itself. It posits a third party with write access (and therefore read access) to a PC which contains secure information. That matters.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 06:56 AM

Moving on from well-tilled ground, Keith. What is your view on the content and timing of what are being reported as "nine new red lines" by Rees Mogg and co?

(Personally, I don't that all are reasonably described as 'new' but it is at least fair to call them re-emphasised).


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 06:57 AM

Sorry, wrong thread!


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 06:58 AM

The policeman has said that it's inconceivable that Green had not viewed the porn. I take it from that that the stuff wasn't particularly hiding behind hard passwords, etc. If Green knew that the porn was there but that someone else had installed it, he would have done what the rest of us would have done in the same circumstances: made a bloody great big stink about it. Which he didn't do. What if I'd found porn on my school laptop, did nothing about it and then had it discovered by the head? I'd be sacked, that's what.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Iains
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 07:02 AM

DMcG. Rumour has it that the whips have a little black book that enables them to keep certain MPs malleable.
   It follows on that it is no stretch to the imagination that other persons/groups/countries seek similar means of control. If company computers in one country can be troubleshooted by the IT dept. in another country, then I am sure Joe Bloggs computer is very vulnerable to hacking. I wonder just what security protocols exist for the computer/s of an MP. Posession of pornography does no favours to a reputation and certain forms of pornography will destroy it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 07:07 AM

"He denies it"

Well he would, wouldn't he?

"There is no evidence for it"

It will be a networked computer. There will be an audit-trail which will carry evidence of the person whose account was logged-in at the time the material was downloaded. Are you claiming that this audit-trail doesn't exist? Where is your evidence?

"Except the claims....of ex-cops with a grudge"

Where is your evidence of this simply being a matter of them holding a 'grudge'? Do you know the gentlemen personally? Have you discussed their views with them?

"It was ten years ago"

Are you claiming that their is a Time-Limitation on government ministers' Gross Misconduct? Evidence that this is the case?


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 07:17 AM

"There is a Time-Limitation..."!,
Bloody iPad predictive text!


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 07:19 AM

Which exactly why, Iains, a deeper investigation would be needed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 07:31 AM

"Even they admit they had no proof it was Green anyway. It was not illegal anyway."
A pathetic excuse to absolve the behaviour of an elected member of Parliament
The police haven't said there was no proof - they said that the pornography found was not their business and should have been dealt with within the political 'freemasons' system
It was 'bad form' for the policemen to blow the gaff was the statement by a retired police official that was broadcast on yesterday's news
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 07:34 AM

To give this affair a bit of context - try this (can'r 'blue-clickie' it
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/parliament-computers-made-250000-attempts-to-access-pornography-at-palace-of-westminster-10418449.html
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 07:35 AM

Two Years earlier
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/parliaments-porn-habit-revealed-as-300000-attempts-made-to-access-adult-websites-from-work-computers-8797386.html
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 08:13 AM

No wonder they're all closing ranks in order to close down the subject of Gross Misconduct in the corridors of power - behaviour which, in any other working environment, would carry the penalty of instant dismissal.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 08:19 AM

And, of course, there's still the subject of the >100 files documenting the investigation into MP's paedophilia, which were so conveniently 'lost' by our erstwhile Home Secretary, now our 'Strong and Stable' (vomit) Prime Minister.

If I'd lost 100+ files containing employee details, I'd have been down the road tout de suite, not promoted to Chief Exec.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 08:40 AM

the cop has a grudge, an accusation for which you have no evidence.
The cop said his career had been blighted by the encounter.

during an investigation that showed Green to be dishonest, by the way

Please explain and justify that accusation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 09:00 AM

He was in possession of leaked documents disadvantageous to the then Labour government. The lackey who provided him with the documents was sacked. Nothing said: he let the establishment look after him (which included the police keeping quiet about the porn), faux-outrage to the fore, just as they're trying to do now. He is not a fit and proper person to be in his current exalted position. Anyway, his days are numbered. That's a confident prediction.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Iains
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 09:06 AM

http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2013/09/05/mps-private-porn-habits-contradict-their-public-statements

5 years old this link above.

Perhaps for the sake of balance we should be given access to the porn viewing habits of all mps over the last 10 years.

A considerable percentage of internet traffic is porn. The amount of power that wastes is not very green.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 09:12 AM

It has long been established that pornography and sexual misconduct (INCLUDING PAEDOPHELIA ) has long been a way of life in Westminster
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 09:20 AM

Just a reminder, chaps, that this is about pornography on his work computer.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Iains
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 09:23 AM

A little balance from the Guardian no less.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/dec/01/damian-green-porn-work-police-mp

No offence has been committed.

What did happen was that the labour government raided MP's offices in an action worthy of a totalitarian regime, and the police by holding data illegally were guilty of an offence.

The true story

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/5165813/Damian-Green-scandal-How-a-ministers-frustration-led-to-the-arrest.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 09:39 AM

Steve, of course John does a fine analysis. Haven't you noticed he reliably gets it right the first time in one post.
The pack grumbles, grovels and growls for days while Mr. Red moves on free as the wind. He has even called American politics correctly over a year in advance.

btw When someone pulls a Damian here, they get fired.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Iains
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 10:03 AM

"Just a reminder, chaps, that this is about pornography on his work computer."

I don't think so.

Under our constitution the House of Commons is de facto the sovereign power.
Therefore the MPs run the show and do everything - pay their wages, set their wages and so forth and have no superiors i.e. employers - just as long as they can get permission from voters every 5 years or so.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 11:18 AM

Sorry, mate, this whole shenanigans is about porn on his work computer.

From your Telegraph link:

In October Chris Wright, the Director of Security and Intelligence at the Cabinet Office, wrote to Bob Quick, the Assistant Commissioner for Special Operations, to seek a criminal investigation. The letter claimed that there had been "considerable damage to national security already" and the "potential for future damage is significant".
Within three weeks the Police were on the case after it appeared that Mr Galley made his fist [sic] mistake. The Tories had been passed a document that appeared to be a letter from the Home Secretary to the Prime Minister warning that crime figures would rise in the coming recession. It was only a draft, the letter was never sent.
On November 19 the police questioned Mr Galley and over the next 17 hours it became clear that he had regularly supplied Mr Green. While it is not an offence to be a passive recipient of leaked documents, anyone who incites a public servant to break a confidence can be at risk of arrest. The next day Mr Quick was told that a senior MP was implicated in the leaks so he sought "legal advice" because of concerns about "Parliamentary privilege and the rights of the police on the Parliamentary estate".
Warrants were obtained for Mr Green's home and constituency offices but crucially not for his Parliamentary office. The police were told that under the terms of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act unless consent was refused by the Parliamentary authorities, one was not required.


Green was the willing recipient of leaked documents. That, in addition to the pornography found on his computer that he appears never to have complained about (wouldn't you if you thought someone had installed it on your computer?), adds up to a bloke who is unfit for public office, his integrity in tatters. It could well be that he's adding lying to his list of transgressions now. Can't be sure for now, of course.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Iains
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 11:26 AM

My minor argument is about the description "work Computer"


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 11:46 AM

"Not a police matter"
I wonder if this would have been the response if it had been a teacher who was found to have been discovered downloading porn!!
Or a doctot
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-506652/Doctor-admits-downloading-porn-hospital-computers.html
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 11:58 AM

As I said, the faux-outraged establishment come out in their droves like attack-dogs to protect him. That copper had better have the hide of a rhino.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Iains
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 12:22 PM

John 8:7


https://www.churchmilitant.com/news/article/new-survey-of-porn-use-shows-startling-stats-for-men-and-women

How many reading this have watched no porn on their own computers?


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 12:36 PM

Is that the right question? How many have used their work computer? At a time, and if the reported numbers are a guide, to an extent when they were being paid to do something else?


What people do in their own time is their own concern if it is legal. What they do in work time is another matter.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 12:43 PM

Brings to mind the Tories versus cops row about a posh boy tory calling a hard working policeman a pleb...


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 12:54 PM

What about them high and mighty moral guardians paid to, or volunteering, to view porn
in order to safeguard us weak minded citizens from it's harmful effects..
Viewing it day after day so they can pass judgements on what we mere mortals are not allowed to see...


Maybe Green could use that excuse...???


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 12:59 PM

There was an interesting R4 programme a few weeks back about the people who work for facebook and the like who job it is to watch all this stuff and violent videos and so on to decide whether it should be taken off the site. Apparently few can last more than a year and they can be seriously damaged in their ability to relate to other people.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 01:07 PM

As I said, that cop had better be thick-skinned.

"How many reading this have watched no porn on their own computers?"

Me. I'm virulently anti-pornography, I don't look at it on my computers and never have done, and I certainly don't agree that any pornography can be victimless. Even bare bum 'n' tit-wagging in shagging scenes on telly revolt me. However, porn exists, much of it is legal, unfortunately, and it's not my business if someone chooses to use porn in the privacy of their own homes (sad buggers in my opinion, but hey). But this was a computer provided for him to do the important work he was paid to do, not use it to download fodder for his little worktime "diversions."

Maybe you think that colours my view of this issue. And maybe it does.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Iains
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 01:08 PM

"What people do in their own time is their own concern if it is legal. What they do in work time is another matter."
For an MP such categorisation is not quite as straightforward. How do you define work time and works computer for an MP.

This does not excuse reckless behaviour and gives rise to legitimate security concerns. Especially when GCHQ and NSA at menwith hill hoover up all electronic communications.

http://www.computerweekly.com/news/450297574/MPs-private-emails-are-routinely-accessed-by-GCHQ
Just emails? I suspect not.

The faux outrage here is very selective. Do you seriously believe only one MP is guilty?
I think the real danger highlighted here is the way a part of the executive has a means to pressurize the legislative.
(Just like over the pond)


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 01:09 PM

"How many reading this have watched no porn on their own computers?"
What's youyr point?
We are talking bout elected representatives of the British People who constantly prate about what is right for society and what isn't
If there is any relevance to yor link it is just how available modern society allows the distribution of porn
The only people in a position to do something about it appear to be up to their uxters in it
It's a mystery how they manage to get any work done while one of their hands is in use for another purpose!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 01:23 PM

I'm quite happy for any MP to have their work activities scrutinised, subject to genuine security considerations, and so should they. What did they expect? In this case we are talking about questions over the integrity of a man who, above all else, should be squeaky clean. He's May's right-hand man fer Chrissake. We already know that he was gleefully accepting leaked papers that were intended for undermining the government of the day. Now we hear that there was porn on that computer, his computer, and he's protesting ignorance. Really?


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 01:50 PM

"It's a mystery how they manage to get any work done while one of their hands is in use for another purpose!"

"He's May's right-hand man"

"My Right Honourable Friend, the member for [constituency]"


.. so that explains that then...


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Iains
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 02:09 PM

"We already know that he was gleefully accepting leaked papers that were intended for undermining the government of the day"

Rein in the mock outrage shaw.
Politicians do the dirty on one another every opportunity.


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/election-97-tory-election-posters-leaked-to-labour-1269270.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 02:53 PM

Well, Iains, first of all " they're all at it anyway". Is not a justification for wrongdoing. Second, let me just remind you of an Extract from your own link:

In October Chris Wright, the Director of Security and Intelligence at the Cabinet Office, wrote to Bob Quick, the Assistant Commissioner for Special Operations, to seek a criminal investigation. The letter claimed that there had been "considerable damage to national security already" and the "potential for future damage is significant".

Whatever the other rights and wrongs of leaking documents, there is a difference of several degrees at least between a mole in an ad agency leaking election leaflets and a director of intelligence worrying about national security. Coxes and comices...


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 03:01 PM

"Rein in the mock outrage shaw."
Every time you post something like this you prove that something is rotten in the State of Britain and in need of reform
Like your view on pornography, that fact that many people do it doesn't make it any less wrong
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 03:03 PM

"How many reading this have watched no porn on their computers?"

Well I, for one, haven't - I have a fantastic wife and a great marriage, why would I want to spend my time watching wank-sites? Don't judge everyone else by your own sordid standards.


Now, since Mr. A of H seems to have missed my earlier post, here it is again....

"He denies it"

Well he would, wouldn't he?

"There is no evidence for it"

It will be a networked computer. There will be an audit-trail which will carry evidence of the person whose account was logged-in at the time the material was downloaded. Are you claiming that this audit-trail doesn't exist? Where is your evidence?

"Except the claims....of ex-cops with a grudge"

Where is your evidence of this simply being a matter of them holding a 'grudge'? Do you know the gentlemen personally? Have you discussed their views with them?

"It was ten years ago"

Are you claiming that there is a Time-Limitation on government ministers' Gross Misconduct? Evidence that this is the case?

We're waiting.....


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 03:08 PM

Steve,
He was in possession of leaked documents disadvantageous to the then Labour government.

Was he? Nothing was found by the police. Where did you get that from Steve?

When the material first came to light (during an investigation that showed Green to be dishonest, by the way),

Really? Where did you get that from?


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 03:28 PM

Tory party Anthem

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4iItGNCHsw


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 03:38 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Iains - PM
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 12:22 PM

John 8:7


https://www.churchmilitant.com/news/article/new-survey-of-porn-use-shows-startling-stats-for-men-and-women

How many reading this have watched no porn on their own computers? "
i NEVER WATCH ANY PORN


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 03:48 PM

I watch it you old prudes, but I'm very choosey...

..same as with folk music.. only a few percent of it is any good and worth enjoying..


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Iains
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 03:53 PM

"Like your view on pornography, that fact that many people do it doesn't make it any less wrong"

It is not illegal for adults in the uk to watch pornography on a computer
If not illegal how is it wrong?

And how do you know what my views on pornography are? Just more made up shit by jom. (cue the red paintbrush)


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 04:01 PM

Your resort to denial is staggering, Keith.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 05:11 PM

You threw this out as a challenge to us, Iains:

"How many reading this have watched no porn on their own computers?"

It's clear from several of the responses that you are not in touch with the Mudcat zeitgeist. It's also clear that you want us all to chime with your own personal predilections. How disappointing it must be for you to hear that a good few of us are absolutely not with you when it comes to your porn habit. Still, as has been well said, that's your business.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 05:26 PM

"I watch it you old prudes, but I'm very choosey..."

Ha! My wife creased up when I told her I'd been called a 'prude' - she, better than anyone else, knows that, whatever else I may be, prudish I most definitely am not! But I've always believed that sex, like sport, is infinitely more interesting when you're a participant than when you're merely a spectator....

But whatever floats yer boat, old buddy!


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 05:50 PM

Backwoodsman - yeah... mudcat's a bit more one dimensional and black and white without my favourite emoticons denoting irony and sarcasm...

Hang on, let's try again..

This'll either be cheeky blinky sticky out tongue emoticon or boring question marks...


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 05:51 PM

??


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 05:52 PM

Oh well....


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Dec 17 - 05:58 PM

"But I've always believed that sex, like sport, is infinitely more interesting when you're a participant than when you're merely a spectator...."

You're only saying that because you didn't see Liverpool slaughtering Brighton 5-1 yesterday. But when it comes to the sex I'm right with you.

Well not you personally...


Shit...


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Dec 17 - 02:57 AM

It's OK Steve, I get the drift! ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Iains
Date: 04 Dec 17 - 03:57 AM

" It's also clear that you want us all to chime with your own personal predilections. How disappointing it must be for you to hear that a good few of us are absolutely not with you when it comes to your porn habit. Still, as has been well said, that's your business."

Resorting to insults without any evidence to back it up. What does that say about the man? I assume you have drunk too much of that cheap booze you are always boasting about. Allegations require evidence in order to be substantiated. Where is yours?
I see you are copying your fellow mudrat with more made up shit.
As I have said many times shaw. You are a fool.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Dec 17 - 04:32 AM

Steve,
Your resort to denial is staggering, Keith.

Your resort to false claims is staggering, Steve.
Nothing was found in the police raids on Green's office or his home.
Your claim was not true.

If pornography was found it was not reported at the time so it was clearly perfectly legal if it even existed.

No allegation even of dishonesty was made against Green at the time. You made that up too. Staggering!

DMcG, a current minister on TV said that minions do use his office computer and even write emails in his name.
He said that is common practise.
He also said that no-one could sit using porn for hours in such an office.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Dec 17 - 04:36 AM

NOT JUST a WATCHER
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Dec 17 - 04:37 AM

Just more made up shit by jom

I can understand you channeling Teribus in his absence, Iains, but there is no need to mimic Keith as well. He is still here.

FWIW I think all Tory MPs should watch as much porn as possible. May stop them fucking the country.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Dec 17 - 04:37 AM

NOT JUST a WATCHER


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Iains
Date: 04 Dec 17 - 05:23 AM

So D the G you support the made up shit by your little packmates do you? That makes you equally as despicable.
When reasoned argument fails, it is time to resort to insults.
The tactics of the mudrats!


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Dec 17 - 05:38 AM

"The tactics of the mudrats!"
Infinitely preferable to subtituting personal abuse for intelligent answers Iains
Will you never understand that your own behaviour sets you up as a total inarticulate, ill brought up moron
Grow up
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Dec 17 - 05:49 AM

Not an insult, Iains. A perfectly justified inference. If you throw out a challenge of this nature:

"How many reading this have watched no porn on their own computers?"

...then it's clear that you're trying to exonerate Green (and presumably yourself) by making the use of porn on computers as anodyne and normal a thing as eating your cornflakes or going for a wee (shame that you caused a mini-uprising of Mudcat members who are totally not with you, eh?). In any case, as you clearly think that using porn is a perfectly fine thing to do, how is it an insult to suggest that it's part of your personal repertoire? As a matter of fact, if anyone's insulting anybody, it's you suggesting via the above remark that "we're all at it." But we're not bitter. We're just unsurprised, knowing you as we do, that you have shown yourself to be completely out of touch with the overall ethos here.

Yours amusedly, Steve, stone cold sober mudratter, come up and see my computer any time.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Dec 17 - 05:54 AM

"Nothing was found in the police raids on Green's office or his home."

In the absence of emojees, hopefully temporary, I've made up a title for a new folk song. It's called "ROT MY FLAY-O."


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Dec 17 - 06:03 AM

Cracking good letter in the Guardian this morning.

"If David Davis is threatening to resign if Damian Green is forced out (Report, 2 December), is this a case of Sack One Dismiss One For Free (Sodoff)?"


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Dec 17 - 06:05 AM

Guardian article linked to above by Ians,

" In the course of the raid, which involved 20 officers and extended to Green?s home and car, Green?s computers were seized and opened.
No further action was taken and the incident caused outrage on both sides at Westminster. This led some of the police officers to resent the criticism.
One of them, though he had been ordered to destroy the seized computer archive, copied it and has since revealed its pornographic contents to the media.
When challenged as to why no action was taken on the pornography, former Metropolitan police commissioner Sir Paul Stephenson correctly pointed out that it had nothing to do with the case. It involved ?no criminality, no victims, no vulnerability?. There was nothing extreme, illegal or involving children or abuse, and therefore no public interest, no matter how improper one may consider viewing pornography at work. Nonetheless Green, who denies all the accusations, is now at risk of losing his job and his career under a general hue and cry.

The idea that the police, on the orders of an opposing political party, can invade an MP?s office and seize and disclose to the public any material it hopes might blacken his name is worthy of a totalitarian regime. Even if there was cause to suspect document theft, the purloining of unrelated material against a rainy day is hardly ethical policing."

So Steve, your claims against Green were lies.
Staggering!


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Dec 17 - 06:09 AM

Steve,
"Nothing was found in the police raids on Green's office or his home."
In the absence of emojees, hopefully temporary, I've made up a title for a new folk song. It's called "ROT MY FLAY-O."


What do you claim was found then, liar?
What emojee illustrates your use of lies and false accusation?
What exactly is wrong with my statement, "Nothing was found?"


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Dec 17 - 06:17 AM

So D the G you support the made up shit by your little packmates do you?

Where have I said I support anything? What made up shit and what little packmates? Your grasp of what goes on is equaled only by your lack of originality.

As to When reasoned argument fails, it is time to resort to insults. That is pretty rich coming from the abuser in chief himself. If you will excuse the phrase considering the circumstances. You couldn't make this shit up.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Dec 17 - 06:26 AM

Dave,
Where have I said I support anything?

Every post you have made here has been supportive of Remain.
Do you not support Remain?

What made up shit and what little packmates?

That might refer to Steve's claims that Green has been found "dishonest" and that the police found incriminating "documents" in his possession. Steve made both up. They are blatant lies Dave.
Do you dissociate yourself from them or not?


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Dec 17 - 06:33 AM

I do support remaining in the EU. WTF has that got to do with Damian Green's liking for pornography?

I neither associate nor disassociate myself with anyone else's views on Mudcat. There is no such thing as 'little packmates'. Do you approve of Iains's constant abuse and invective?

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Iains
Date: 04 Dec 17 - 06:40 AM

So fat all we have is allegations from disgraced former policemen besmirching their office, and by their own admission, in a flagrant breach of the data protection act. In addition they are guilty of politicization of the police. One of them, Quick, was the one that caused a political crisis by searching an Mp's office in Parliament without even a search warrant.
A man with a grudge, no morals and in desperate need of slinging in jail.
It is also known that no charges resulted against Green as a result of all this activity.
This was all on the watch of Labour's one eyed brown.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Dec 17 - 06:42 AM

What "incriminating" documents have I ever mentioned? Rot My Flay-o!

Found nothing? Thousands of porn files equals nothing? Rot My Bleedin' Flay-o!

Not dishonest? Even if it were remotely possible that he didn't download them himself, he can't NOT have known they were there. But instead of making a massive stink he kept silent. He's lying when he says he didn't know anything about them. As things stand we have to accept the remote possibility that someone else downloaded the files to his computer. Ha bloody ha.

In the last couple of days I've asked several people what they would do if they found that someone had downloaded porn to their computer. The universal answer is that they would have gone bloody ballistic and made a bloody great big raving stink about it.

Let's see if he threatens to sue for defamation. I should bloody coco!

Good piece in today's Guardian about all this by Matthew d'Ancona. "If Damian Green harassed a woman or lied, he must go." And he's been a consistent defender of Green for years.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Dec 17 - 06:45 AM

"One-eyed Brown?" Jayz, that sez all there needs to be said about you, Iains. Do you kick cripples' crutches away in the street too?

For the record, neither policeman left the force in disgrace.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Stu
Date: 04 Dec 17 - 06:56 AM

Something of nothing, would be wealth with if parliament had a functioning HR dept or equivalent that could oversee this sort of rubbish.

It's quite possible that Green didn't know porn had been viewed on his computer as many people had access to it; happens in offices all the time, every single day. People share log in details and passwords all the time. Even if Green was viewing porn on his works computer then he deserves a slap on the wrist, it's hardly a hanging offence.

The policeman is a suspect character that has gone public rather than reported this to his superiors. I wonder about his motives.

Mind you, this sort of think keeps a certain type of person distracted from actual news by provoking pseudo-moral outrage. Strange that, isn't it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Iains
Date: 04 Dec 17 - 06:57 AM

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/dec/01/damian-green-decade-long-feud-met-officer-bob-quick

Position untenable = disgrace in my book.

Perhaps to a sandal wearing weidie beardy like you it means something different.
Rather like your constant confusion between allegation and fact on this thread.

"Do you kick cripples' crutches away in the street too?"

What a pathetic little fellow you are Shaw. Your babbling run out of road so you resort to insults again?


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Dec 17 - 06:59 AM

Definitely channeling Keith as well as terbus now.

Different morality
Different language
Different planet

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Dec 17 - 07:02 AM

I am not surprised that beer and porn are the leading popular threads


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Dec 17 - 07:29 AM

The policeman hasn't got any superiors. He's retired. And your attitude to people with disabilities is disgusting. I'd like to hear any of your comrades here defend that despicable, gratuitous "one-eyed Brown" comment. Christ knows why you feel you have to do that sort of thing.

It's not so much about the porn, Stu, though you are trivialising it a bit too much in my view. It's more about the integrity and honesty of the man who is May's second-in-command. Read d'Ancona's Guardian article. It may well be that the policeman decided to blow the whistle after he'd he heard about sex-pest allegations (by a Tory woman!) against Green. He went public a few days after that came out. It. Is fully in the public interest that this bloke is investigated, and the establishment furore is just so bloody fake and so predictable. I see we have Cressida Dick throwing the protecting veil around Green now. Well she knows all about the establishment rushing to one's aid, doesn't she?


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Dec 17 - 08:36 AM

Dave,
I do support remaining in the EU. WTF has that got to do with Damian Green's liking for pornography?

I am sorry. My mind was on another thread.

I should have said,

Every post you have made here has been against Green.
Do you support his position or not?
If you have no opinion, what are you doing here?

What made up shit and what little packmates?


That might refer to Steve's claims that Green has been found "dishonest" and that the police found incriminating "documents" in his possession. Steve made both up. They are blatant lies Dave.

Is it OK to lie to support a case?


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Dec 17 - 08:45 AM

Every post you have made here has been against Green.

I don't recall saying anything either for or against his use of porn. If I did, can you link me to it or is it just more made up shit? :-)

Do you support his position or not?

I have no idea what his position is. We are talking porn aren't we?

If you have no opinion, what are you doing here?

None of your business, If the moderators deem my presence so abhorrent I am sure they will do something about it.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 04 Dec 17 - 08:55 AM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 04 Dec 17 - 07:29 AM
The policeman hasn't got any superiors. He's retired. And your attitude to people with disabilities is disgusting. I'd like to hear any of your comrades here defend that despicable, gratuitous "one-eyed Brown" comment. Christ knows why you feel you have to do that sort of thing.

It's not so much about the porn, Stu, though you are trivialising it a bit too much in my view. It's more about the integrity and honesty of the man who is May's second-in-command. Read d'Ancona's Guardian article. It may well be that the policeman decided to blow the whistle after he'd he heard about sex-pest allegations (by a Tory woman!) against Green. He went public a few days after that came out. It. Is fully in the public interest that this bloke is investigated, and the establishment furore is just so bloody fake and so predictable. I see we have Cressida Dick throwing the protecting veil around Green now. Well she knows all about the establishment rushing to one's aid, doesn't she?


First things first, I agree with you about the "One-eyed Brown" slur. That was totally unnecessary and I would have said so earlier if it wasn't that I was reading this thread for the first time.

As for 'it's fully in the public interest that this bloke is investigated', I would have to say that if it must be done it should be done under the rule of law.
The original raid on Green's parliamentary offices was questionable.
The release of information by an ex-cop who had no reason to have retained information which should only have been retained in secure police files (if there was reason to retain it at all) does nothing to help justice.
We have laws about Data Protection for a reason, and much of the time it is to protect us all. Civil Servants (including the police) should receive frequent reminders of their responsibilities when dealing with personal information.
Generally, it should not be copied without good reason. It should be retained in a secure way, it should not be taken from the relevant office without good reason. Data protection UK Gov

The Data Protection Act allows you to ask any organisation what information they hold about you. If the police had deleted their files on the matter they would not have known that there was any information held, if Green had requested details.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Dec 17 - 09:02 AM

Steve,
What "incriminating" documents have I ever mentioned? Rot My Flay-o!

You claimed that Green was found in possession of leaked government documents.
He was not.
You made that up.

You said, " When the material first came to light (during an investigation that showed Green to be dishonest, by the way),"

No material came to light in the investigation of Green's home and offices.
You made that up.

The investigation did not show Green to be dishonest.
You made that up.

Staggering lies just to make your lying case against Green.
You are a disgrace Steve.

Found nothing? Thousands of(perfectly legal) porn files equals nothing? Rot My Bleedin' Flay-o!

That was not claimed until ten years later, and there is no reason to believe he knew anything about it even if it is true.

Read what Stu has just said.
Also read what Deputy Speaker Eleanor Laing has said. Her office assistant "several years ago, before we had effective screening of our parliamentary computers, she used to find pornographic images on her computer every morning when she switched it on." "Thus it would appear that material found in the parliamentary computer system can be proved to have been put ther by some other means than by the deliberate actions of the person operating the computer"

So Yes Steve. The accusations equal nothing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Dec 17 - 09:15 AM

"Cressida Dick"...???

Blimey, tories even have porn star names...!!!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Dec 17 - 09:25 AM

I assume Rot my Flay o is not a good thing?

You guys always take issues so personally I have to assume it is cultural. Or is it all one person's fault ';^/

Is it due to classism, reputation wars or a tradition of rudeness?
Some porn I find outright artistic. Met Art.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Dec 17 - 09:32 AM

some porn is the deeply subversive and hilarious expression of counter culture artists and intellectuals...

or at least it was back in the pre-video and silicone tits era..


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Dec 17 - 10:15 AM

On the whole I agree with you, Nigel. But this is the real world, one of murky tactics, wholesale leaks (in which all parties are complicit and in which Damian Green was definitely involved, if only as the grateful recipient thereof), underhand tactics, data hacking, genie-out-of-the-bottle social media...it could be that many of our hallowed leaders are feeling upper inner thighs, promising favours in return for favours, using porn... its all bad. But maybe this cop, who should not have been in possession of illicitly-copied stuff anyway, is best characterised as a whistleblower. Maybe he sees Green as an insufferable hypocrite who needed to be exposed in the public interest. Maybe he's the least bad character in this soap opera in which there are no good guys. Maybe there's more to come out. The way the establishment have immediately gone for the jugulars of these two ex-cops is highly suspicious. Anyway, on a lighter note to finish, I bet Damian is hoping against hope that Theresa doesn't make a statement saying that he has her full support...


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 04 Dec 17 - 12:00 PM

But maybe this cop, who should not have been in possession of illicitly-copied stuff anyway, is best characterised as a whistleblower. Maybe he sees Green as an insufferable hypocrite who needed to be exposed in the public interest.
Whistle-blowers normally speak out about problems within their own business. If he were to be considered a whistle-blower isn't it strange to hold on to the evidence for ten years. What other misuses could there be in that timescale that he has allowed to happen (if his evidence can be trusted)?
Also, if he's only just identified him as a hypocrite, why steal that evidence ten years ago?
Whatever else happens I can't see this ex-cop coming out of this smelling of roses.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Dec 17 - 12:27 PM

He won't, Nigel. But the complaint from Kate Maltby about Green's alleged sexual improprieties came out just four days before the policeman came forward. I haven't a clue what his motive was but, just maybe, he thought that enough was enough. We are encouraged to speak out these days on sexual abuse. Maybe he was wrong-headed all along the line. I can't think of a single good reason why he had that material copied. But the genie's out of the bottle. Maybe there's more to this than we currently know. Green definitely has awkward questions to answer and, being in the position he's holding, he should answer them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Stu
Date: 04 Dec 17 - 12:45 PM

" It's more about the integrity and honesty of the man who is May's second-in-command."

This isn't the way to test those values in the man as you could never prove he looked at it. It's a total waste of time and a distraction. The offence here is someone used a works computer to look at porn; beyond that there's nothing to see.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Iains
Date: 04 Dec 17 - 12:51 PM

"I can't think of a single good reason why he had that material copied."

He as a policeman of high rank should know better than anyone else about the data protection act, and more importantly why the act was passed.

He should be made a severe example of for publicly breaking this law.
Furthermore by doing he is playing politics. As a highranking officer involved in security he has no excuse for his behaviour.
Retired or not his previous status smacks of the executive interfering with the legislative.
   The judiciary should bear this in mind when he is finally charged and judged.
The separation of power is implicit in a healthy democracy.
A court case is required both to reinforce this separation and send a strong message to others.
    This man overstepped his authority when searching an mp's parliamentary office without the required authorizations and compounded this by waltzing into downing street clutching a folder where the title page was captured by the press. Gross incompetence for a member of the security forces.
    Additionally he is guilty of holding data illegally for what can only be construed as political mischief making.

    He clearly demonstrates he was unfit for the role he was appointed to.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Dec 17 - 03:03 PM

"He clearly demonstrates he was unfit for the role he was appointed to."
Unlike the bunch of PORNO KINGS who hold parliamentary office, you mean?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Dec 17 - 03:10 PM

There's a case in America where the whistle blower was such an unreliable shit of a person,
and committed so much crime he ended up with a long spell in prison.
But, he effectively opened up a case of such magnitude,
the Law was able to catch far more bigger crooks infesting Corporate America...

I've seen the movie, Mat Damon played the not quite as baddy...


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Dec 17 - 09:42 AM

100!

:D


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Dec 17 - 12:24 PM

So.. an example of a whistleblower whose acts and motives were not exactly heroic,
but who still got the job done in exposing greater corruption...

Mark Whitacre


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Iains
Date: 05 Dec 17 - 12:57 PM

"The exposure of greater corruption" is as yet nothing more than allegations from two very dodgy coppers. But if you refuse to acknowledge the danger their actions expose us to then welcome to the approaching police state. But as many here support comrade corbyn I suppose such an attitude should not be surprising.
I would have thought that squeaker Bercow would have made a comment concerning Parliamentary priviledge by now.

Keeping data illegally that was not even germane to the original enquiry.
Making allegations for motives of revenge and politics based purely on their interviews with third party media with no supporting eveidence.

Scotland Yard chief Cressida Dick today said retired police officers who leaked information about the Damien Green inquiry could face prosecution.

Sir Peter Fahy, ex-chief constable of Greater Manchester, said it was vital police were "not involved in politics".Ex-detectives who disclosed that legal pornography was found on Damian Green's office computer are in "dangerous territory", a former police chief says.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 Dec 17 - 01:05 PM

It's a very simple thing.

If you, I or anyone else is caught with pornography on our works computer we would be sacked.

There is absolutely no reason why Green should be treated differently.

The fact that the content is legal does not enter the equation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Dec 17 - 01:12 PM

If you, I or anyone else is caught with pornography on our works computer we would be sacked.

Not if they are self employed, as politicians are.
And, not unless it can be shown that they are responsible for it, as Green can not.

Otherwise, good point Rag.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Dec 17 - 01:14 PM

If you, I or anyone else is caught with pornography on our works computer we would be sacked.

Not if they are self employed, as politicians are.
And, not unless it can be shown that they are responsible for it, as Green can not.

Otherwise, good point Rag.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Dec 17 - 01:22 PM

""The exposure of greater corruption" is as yet nothing more than allegations from two very dodgy coppers. But if you refuse to acknowledge the danger their actions expose us to then welcome to the approaching police state


All I've done is provide an example of a case where not all whistleblowers can be expected to be squeaky clean...

You've certainly managed to perform an amazing [cunning] stunt of over inference and extrapolation
from my reasonably objective comment...

.. blimey.. and to think, not that long ago tories would have wished for nothing better than a police state...?????


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 Dec 17 - 01:28 PM

You can make as many excuses for Green as you wish.

It actually speaks volumes about yourself and your complete lack of integrity.

So, no change there.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Dec 17 - 01:36 PM

"Not if they are self employed, as politicians are.
Bollocks Keith
The police are elected to represent the people - to equate this with an electrician having to tout for work is utter nonsense
They are the only people in a position to change laws on pornogrpy - to be uncovered as regulat useers of it make them not only hypocrites by betrayers of the trust put in them by electing them into office
It has long been established that pornographt adversely effects how women are regarded in our society - a survey is at present being carried out to show to what extent children are open to web-pornogrophy
The porno-politicos have chosen their sides on both of these issues and, as usual, the public, particularly the most vulnerable, comes off second best
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Dec 17 - 01:48 PM

"The police are elected to represent the people"
Shit - meant to write politicians
Better late than never
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Iains
Date: 05 Dec 17 - 02:01 PM

Time for a little balance and to refresh memories.
From 2009
Home Secretary Jacqui Smith was said to be "mortified" after she was forced to offer a humiliating apology for an expenses claim which included adult films watched by her husband.

Ms Smith, Redditch MP since 1997, said she "mistakenly" submitted an expenses claim which included five pay-per-view films, including two adult movies which were viewed at her family home in her Redditch constituency.

Naught naughty!!!!!!!!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Dec 17 - 02:20 PM

for some folks "balance" seems to equal "petty tit for tat"...

and where would UK party politics be without that...??????


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Dec 17 - 02:32 PM

Rag,
You can make as many excuses for Green as you wish.

I have made none.
Otherwise, another good point Rag.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Iains
Date: 05 Dec 17 - 02:46 PM

As I said at the outset there are bad apples in every barrel. No political party is squeaky clean so all this outrage to make political capital out of alleged misbehaviour merely invites the can of worms to be both shaken and well stirred.
    The major issue brought to life by this affair is the absolute breach of public trust by ex policemen. For the sake of continued police "political neutrality" they need to be severely punished.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Dec 17 - 02:52 PM

"Home Secretary Jacqui Smith was said to be "mortified" after she was forced to offer a humiliating apology for an expenses claim which included adult films watched by her husband."
Is you point that all politicians are prone to using pornography or0 just that there's no harm in it because they all do it.
What's your point Iains - "he/she does it too sir" seems a little beyong the infantile even for you?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Iains
Date: 05 Dec 17 - 02:58 PM

Try understanding my previous post. what is it about bad apples in every barrel you are not capable of understanding. Even for you your post is rather stupid


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Dec 17 - 03:06 PM

BBC Newsnight ran a timely item last night on porn's increasing acceptance in Society..

I've not seen it so can't comment on the side of the fence it leant most towards, but it's on catch up...

Personally, I support 'good' porn - the work of creative artists and decent ordinary folk expressing & celebrating human sexuality.

I condemn most of dehumanising exploitative corporate capitalist porn,
and the vile harmful abusive product of depraved criminals..

The latter probably most appealing to senior tories and other child molesters...

What a lot of fuss if all Green is accused of is readers wive's tits and fanny...???


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 Dec 17 - 03:48 PM

No Iains .......... the MAJOR issue is that a senior conservative politician used his State provided work computer to access pornography.

I you did that at work or I did that at work we would be dismissed instantly.

No if's, no but's, no maybe's.

That is the MAJOR issue, all you are trying to do is fudge the debate.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Iains
Date: 05 Dec 17 - 04:11 PM

Well there we have to totally disagree.
The major issue is that a copper with a dodgy pedigree screwed up and was forced to resign. He held a grudge for 10 years and is making allegations based on material he held illegally. Confidence in the police is already abysmally low. If Quick is not made an example of there will be a further serious loss of confidence in the police. Already other ex policemen are supporting his actions by seemingly backing up his allegations. They should be stripped of their pensions and charged at the very least of breaching the data protection act. I have no doubt other charges could be generated due to the political interference resulting from their actions.
The only satisfactory outcome for this imbroglio is to have the courts decide upon the rights and wrongs of all the issues raised.
   The sooner the better.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 Dec 17 - 04:42 PM

Again I have to differ.

Whatever Damien Green, or anyone else, does in the privacy of their own home (providing it is legal) is no concern of mine.

However he was a paid public servant who made use of his state provided computer to access pornography.

Not only is it monumentally stupid to do so, it is a dereliction of duty to us, the public.

He deserves to be dismissed if for no other reason than he has proved himself unfit for the position.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Iains
Date: 05 Dec 17 - 05:22 PM

The fact remains proof is required to determine guilt. So far we have allegations, backed by further allegations. Some in breach of the data protection act, others breaking contracts of enduring confidentiality.
The latter two are self obvious offences and deserve punishment. The original allegation has yet to be proven.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Stanron
Date: 05 Dec 17 - 05:55 PM

There is no evidence. My guess is that no evidence will appear. If evidence did appear it would only prove that the people presenting it have broken the law. By now evidence isn't needed. The whole purpose of the exercise was to attack the Government. This has been successful. Gullible people will accept the smear and the lack of evidence will be forgotten. Result for the left.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Dec 17 - 06:03 PM

How different this all could be if Green had just casually fessed up..

"Oh.. yeah.. that porn... quite good innit.. particularly the red head with the spray can of cream..
well why not relax and have a quick look on me tea breaks...
it's more entertaining than looking over yet another boring cabinet paper"...


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Mr Red
Date: 05 Dec 17 - 06:58 PM

Quote of the week from a Chief of police:

police should not be interfering with politics

Which I had some sympathy with except that the "interference" comes from ex police officers, then I thought:

Don't we have elections to choose police commissioners?

Politics is interfering with policing. More than as legislators!

It's a jungle out there.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Dec 17 - 07:09 PM

I repeat for your benefit, Stanron. This isn't really about just porn. Loads of people use porn (me never included, but hey). Loads of people look at porn, furtively, on their work computer. If I, as a schoolteacher, had been found to be using porn on my school-supplied computer, I would have be been sacked. Simple as that. Now this chap has protested that he neither downloaded nor used the porn on his public-money-supplied computer. The ex-cop who blew the whistle has stated that it is inconceivable that Green didn't know about the porn files (hope you're keeping up...). If that's the case, and, in the absence of contrary evidence I'd say that it was very plausible, then Green has a lot of explaining to do. Why did he not create a big stink about the porn at the time? Wouldn't you have done in the same position? Why is he not threatening to sue the cops? Actually, it's the cops threatening to sue HIM! He is a very savvy, consummate politician. He was devious enough to be in grateful receipt of leaked documents disadvantageous to Labour. No big deal - they're all at it, etc. But he allowed his lackey to fall on his sword over it. He's denied everything. Now he's been accused of inappropriate sexual advances. So what's it all about? It's about the second-in-command of the country having his honesty and integrity severely called into question. People like you and Iains are falling for the routinely trotted-out establishment strategy of using attack as a means of defence. Two old blokes long-retired from the force are hardly going to have sinister, conspiratorial, political motives. Anyone doing what they've done gets immediately shatupon from on high. They're in deep doodah and they knew they would be. What they've done was against the rules and they are risking their pensions, reputations and freedom. Here's the thing. The genie can't be shoved back in the lamp. Your protestations may well have an element of justice-not-served about them, but we are talking here about a man in his Bill Clinton moment. You and your allies spend massive amounts of your energy picking holes in Corbyn's character, trying to depict him as an apologist for antisemitism and terrorism on the most scant of the evidence. All the evidence against your man is, er, uncomfortably building, to say the least. We want honest people running us, not ruthless weasels who squirm away from the truth in order to save their skins, or blokes with one hand on the mouse and the other on their dicks in office time. He has a lot to explain and a lot to prove, and denial simply ain't cutting it for him. That's what this is about.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Dec 17 - 07:35 PM

"There is no evidence."
Probably not - if the police acted in character, they would have long-'disappeared' the evidence
Surely the proof of the pudding is in the actual number of items of evidence indicating that Parliamentary doesn't just happen, but it is fairly common.
If Green is innocent, there are plenty who aren't
"what is it about bad apples "
Isn't that what they said about clerical abuse?
Go count the numbers involved - hardly "a few"
"readers wive's tits and fanny...???"
Oh - that's alright then -as long as its only married women being degraded - 'slice off a cut loaf' so to speak.
The victims of porn are not just those directly and voluntarily involved but women as a whole who are presented as a gender who are 'available'- 'page three style.
When in a hole, stop digging Iains
Perhaps you'd better fall back on personal abuse - it comes more natural to you.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Stanron
Date: 05 Dec 17 - 08:05 PM

Steve, there was a time when Christianity was plausible. Is it now?

Jim, "If Green is innocent, there are plenty who aren't"

That's all you need to keep a smear going.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Dec 17 - 08:32 PM

Not quite sure what your point is, Stanron. If Jesus had really existed (doubtful) and had said all those very wise things (probably put forward by a committee, but hey ho, if they're wise they're wise), then Christianity would be very plausible indeed. But the problem with wonderful ideas, such as Christianity, one-nation conservatism and socialism, is that some prat will always come along, pervert it and spoil it all. Tsk.

The main problem with Green is that he is denying, Clinton-like, what seems bleedin' obvious to all of us fools who take any interest in such things: that he seems to kinda likes a bit of wanking-at-work. Not a mortal sin, but a habit that requires careful, er, handling by public servants in the public eye such as his good self. Then there's those rather awkward groping allegations...

I call for the sword of truth to be wielded!


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Dec 17 - 09:10 PM

Jim - we are mostly on the same side most of the time,
but your severely anti opinion of porn is stuck in a bygone age of over simplistic analysis.
It's the 21st century now, there are different kinds of porn, different kinds of porn producers and consumers,
and differing feminist perspectives on it...

Most porn is still shite, same as most folk music.
But a minority of porn is positive and has eff all to do with the capitalist commercial porn industry..
..again, similar to the minority interest home made do it yourself folk music we tend to appreciate...

Our more relaxed and sensible European neighbours must look at us Brits in astonishment at the palava we make about porn.
Especially when it is used as a weapon in the downfall of important public dignitaries.

It would be so much healthier if some folks could keep it in perspective, and see things less in high contrast black and white....

Obviously the Gary Glitters are served to rights and get what they deserve for their vile appetites..

and this Green appears to be a slimy liar and wanker, willing to blame and destroy anyone but himself for being caught out..
As usual his tory mates are automatically leaping to his defense and closing ranks to attack the whistleblowing old ex rozzer...


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 02:50 AM

Every post you have made here has been against Green.

I don't recall saying anything either for or against his use of porn. If I did, can you link me to it or is it just more made up shit? :-)

Still not had a response to this. No surprise really.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Mr Red
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 03:15 AM

if the police acted in character, they would have long-'disappeared' the evidence

And wouldn't parliament?

Give me odds on that one if you can!


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Iains
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 03:37 AM

I suppose for someone like Jim a constant smear campaign is all that is required, why worry about a little thing called evidence.
Pathetic!


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 03:45 AM

"but your severely anti opinion of porn is stuck in a bygone age of over simplistic analysis."
There is a difference between the salacious and clandestine marketing of sex and a healthy and free celebration of sexuality - one is just business, the other is being human - I won't insult your intelligence by saying which is which.
Pornogrophy presents women as a group as 'available' and is not 'modern' in any way, but a return to the attitude the a woman's place is in bed and in the kitchen.
I have always been a keen fan of sex - that does not mean I tink it should be confined to marriage or childbearing.
Like all natural acts, once it becomes a produce, which is what pornogrophy make it, it becomes oppresive, even dangerous to those in less of a position to defend themselves.
I am a keen supporter of the philosophies of feminism and can still remember the contempt and anger when the suggestion that women should be able to buy drink alone and buy their own drinks wherever the wished.
Even today a rape victim is put on trial if she coplains to the authorities by having to defend her own attitude to sex.
I suggest you look at the percentage of convictions in rape trials and then go and look at the possible numbers of rapes that are never reported because of the victims awareness of how she will be treated in our green and pleasant land.
"same as most folk music."
Something else we will never agree on
"That's all you need to keep a smear going."
I have put up enough statistics to show exactly how many politicians indulge in on-line porn - only a "smear" is you regard facts as such
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 04:18 AM

Dave,

Every post you have made here has been against Green.
I don't recall saying anything either for or against his use of porn. If I did, can you link me to it or is it just more made up shit? :-)
Still not had a response to this. No surprise really.


Dave, I have not commented on the use of porn which I see as a matter of personal morality.
The main discussion point here is should Green resign/be sacked.
Every post of yours puts you firmly on the anti-Green side, as I said.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 04:22 AM

Have I got that wrong Dave, or will you tell us if you think he should go or stay over this.

If you have no opinion about it, why post to this thread?
Just to snipe at one side and stir up shit without committing yourself?
You do that quite a lot Dave.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Iains
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 04:40 AM

"I have put up enough statistics to show exactly how many politicians indulge in on-line porn - only a "smear" is you regard facts as such"

Those statistics apply to a total staff of 5000+. You have no idea who those individuals may be. Therefore you are smearing one individual without a grain of evidence. So in this particular case your post, like many others you produce, is worthless.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 04:48 AM

Every post of yours puts you firmly on the anti-Green side, as I said.

You have still provided no examples of this Keith. What you do is go on with

If you have no opinion about it, why post to this thread?

Well, as I said earlier, my reasons for posting to the thread are none of your business. If the moderation team chose to intervene I am more than happy to accept their rulings. You, fortunately, are not one of them.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 04:53 AM

You're beginning to sound like Hal the computer, Keith.

Personal morality? It goes beyond personal when it involves the exploitation, or the objectification, or the physical abuse of women and children. Men too. The trouble with most in-denial porn users is that they see it as victimless. Well it isn't. The objectification of women feeds into the ruthless fashion industry and makes millions of women and girls miserable about and their body image, so easy to exploit, and can lead to them to throw themselves away online to predatory strangers and to suffer from eating disorders in desperate attempts to make themselves more sexually attractive. I'm not quite sure about the harmless porn that pfr seeks to justify, but all of the rest is about someone ruthlessly exploiting someone else, even if those victims see themselves as non-victims. They are not, and they are helping to make victims of women in general. Pornography is a sickness.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 05:02 AM

HAL makes more sense, Steve!

Different morality
Different language
Different planet

Can bee seen in a whole new light :-)

I agree about the morality of porn. I viewed some a few times and, to be honest, enjoyed it on a purely carnal level but whenever I give it some thought I know your points are absolutely valid. What crosses my mind about people using it is whether they realise that the actors are all someones daughters (and sons!) and what they would think if it was their kith and kin.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Iains
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 05:08 AM

I have seen pornography descibed in many ways, but a sickness.
Make it all up as we go along do we shaw? You perhaps have some medical qualifications to substantiate this claim, that you have yet to boast about?

?Porn addiction? is not an official diagnosis in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders-V (DSM-5).


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 05:18 AM

Exactly, Dave. I could have added that it also feeds into the human propensity for adopting double standards, arising directly from that denial. I can't forget a little incident years ago in our session when, after an hour's worth of the usual laddish ogling of the nice young lady customers coming in, one of the chaps (who had been entirely complicit in the aforementioned grubby proceedings) suddenly whipped round and said that if anyone looked at HIS daughter in that way he'd punch his bloody lights out...

Hey Keith! Daisy, Daisy, give me your answer do
You're half crazy...


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 05:19 AM

You certainly are a valiant defender of porn, Iains . Fits perfectly with your previously-insinuated tastes...


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Iains
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 05:22 AM

Different morality
Different language
Different planet

Do you not get bored with the constant copy and paste? We are!

Howsabout an original thought? Just to surprise us.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 05:37 AM

Do you not get bored with the constant copy and paste? We are!

Howsabout an original thought? Just to surprise us.


It is an original, Iains. I introduced the phrase here to explain why some people cannot possibly communicate on a reasonable level. It is as valid today as it always has been.

Your parroting of anything that Teribus or Keith say is however blatant plagiarism and sycophantic in the extreme. It does make sense of why Keith does not challenge you on your constant sniping though. Birds of a feather I suppose.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 05:38 AM

List "we," Iains.

Let me get it going for you:

Iains

Er...


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 05:53 AM

Dave,
Every post of yours puts you firmly on the anti-Green side, as I said.
You have still provided no examples of this Keith. What you do is go on with


Just settle it then Dave.
Do you think he should go because of an unsubstantiated claim that legal porn was on his computer, bearing in mind he is clear he never put it there or watched it, and that the Deputy Speaker says it happened to her computer too because of poor security back then?
Or not.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 05:58 AM

That is not the point in Question, Keith. You stated quite categorically that "Every post of yours puts you firmly on the anti-Green side, as I said" but you have, as yet, not come up with anything to substantiate that. Can you do so?

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 06:18 AM

"Do you not get bored with the constant copy and paste?"
Idiots might regard it copy and paste - the more thoughtful know it to be information
Hardly surprising that it "bores" you
"We are!"
Attempting to speak for others without first seeking their agreement is a sign of megalomania
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 06:41 AM

BEST PORN SITE IN THE WORLD

nOTHING IS HIDDEN HERE


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 07:01 AM

Ughhh! Donuel - That is disgusting!

:D tG


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 08:07 AM

"Make child molesters Great Again"
Donald Trump


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 08:29 AM

Dave,
You stated quite categorically that "Every post of yours puts you firmly on the anti-Green side,

Yes I did. Do you really think that he should stay?

If I got it wrong, say so.
JUST TELL US WHAT YOU THINK!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 08:35 AM

"...bearing in mind he is clear he never put it there or watched it..."

Heheh. In the words of Mandy Rice-Davies...


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 08:48 AM

"JUST TELL US WHAT YOU THINK!!!"
You never respond to what people say if it doesn't suit you - why change the habit of a lifetime?
Anybody who had the amount of porn he had on a parliamentary computer should be sacked if he doesn't have the decency to resign
The police have covered up this behaviour for a decade - maybe a few heads should roll there as well
We are talking about the elected guardians of our morals and the forces of law and order here - not exactly your average wankers (wankers all maybe - but far from average)
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 08:49 AM

Heheh, there is absolutely no evidence against him.
That is why you had to make up lies and shit about him Steve.
Remember? You said police raids had found leaked government documents.
Lie.
You said he had been shown as dishonest. Another lie.

You have previously been dismissive of eye witness testimony as evidence, but that is all that exists.
And, those eye witnesses bore a grudge.
And, they waited ten years to come forward.
And, their testimony does not even incriminate him or even identify him as the person responsible.
And, a reliable witness, the Deputy Speaker, testified that her computer was similarly effected at the same time.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 08:50 AM

Jim,
You never respond to what people say if it doesn't suit you

Not true. What would you like my opinion on?
Just ask.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 08:58 AM

"What would you like my opinion on?"
Nothing Keith - just making an observation
Just put an example of your not responding on the thread where you are defending Parliamentary Pornos
You never respond to awkward questions and of late you have been whining that there is too much for you to respond to
Out of the mouths....
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 09:16 AM

From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 08:58 AM
"What would you like my opinion on?"
Nothing Keith - just making an observation
Just put an example of your not responding on the thread where you are defending Parliamentary Pornos


And where it has been pointed out, on numerous occasions that, as yet, there are only accusations about pornography. And that the accusations have been denied. And the allegations were brought by those who might hold a grudge against the person they accuse.

The rule of (UK) law provides that a person is innocent until proven guilty.

So as yet we have no real evidence which is capable of corroboration.
So as yet we are not discussing "Parliamentary Pornos".


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Iains
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 09:24 AM

"You certainly are a valiant defender of porn, Iains . Fits perfectly with your previously-insinuated tastes."

I know you inhabit a sandal wearing fantasy world shaw and make shit up as you go along.

How about you find anything I have said to support your vicious insinuation? Mudrat is far too kind a description for a piece of filth like you.

Perhaps your fixation on the subject is because you are a closet pornographer.
Methinks he doth protest too much


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 09:35 AM

No, Keith. I am not jumping through your hoops. I set you the task of providing examples of my views about Green and you have not provided them.

To paraphrase your own words

Heheh, there is absolutely no evidence.
That is why you had to make up lies and shit about me Keith.


Or maybe I should quote (parrotphrase?) your pet parrot, Iains

How about you find anything I have said to support your vicious insinuation?

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 09:53 AM

"I have said to support your vicious insinuation?"
Try
"How many reading this have watched no porn on their own computers?"
"How about you find anything I have said to support your vicious insinuation?"
If it#s such a vicious insinuation to suggest you watch porn, why are you demanding that the policeman who exposed the practice by politicians be punished - or is it not "vicious" if politicians indulge in it?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 10:05 AM

"there are only accusations about pornography."
Those accusations should have been investigated when made against somebody holding political office - they were covered up
"And that the accusations have been denied"
Of course they have - when have politicians ever owned up to anything?
"might hold a grudge against the person they accuse."
So an accuser who might.... is guilty without being tried but if a politician denies something is above investiation
Sound like the Brave New World you people have sought and won
"The rule of (UK) law provides that a person is innocent until proven guilty."
Isn't it what this is all about?
The accusations were never followed up
"So as yet we are not discussing "Parliamentary Pornos".
"Yes we are I've put up the figures for how many politicians have been accessing porn - they are obviously as above investigation as is Fireproof Damian
ONE MORE TIME
Why do you people scurry to defend these people - beyond me!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 10:24 AM

The people defending him here are arch-Tories to a man, Jim. Remember Tories? Self-interest first, the rest can go to hell as long as I'm all right Jack. As soon as a Tory is attacked for anything at all, his or her army of lackeys crawl out to attack that self-same press that has always been SO good to them, they go for the jugular of the BBC which is so establishment (and fairly Tory - think Nick Robinson, Andrew Neil, Jeremy Paxman, Kamil Ahmed, tbe Dimbleby clan...),and God help you if you are a mere individual - why, Green's lackey fell on his sword for passing leaks to Damian who escaped unscathed (until now), and now those two coppers are likely toast as well.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 10:55 AM

"JUST TELL US WHAT YOU THINK!!!"

This bellowed comment from the guy who has studiously ignored four questions which I've asked him directly not once, but twice! In the extremely unlikely event that he really Di miss them the previous two times, here they are again...

"He denies it"

Well he would, wouldn't he?

"There is no evidence for it"

It will be a networked computer. There will be an audit-trail which will carry evidence of the person whose account was logged-in at the time the material was downloaded. Are you claiming that this audit-trail doesn't exist? Where is your evidence?

"Except the claims....of ex-cops with a grudge"

Where is your evidence of this simply being a matter of them holding a 'grudge'? Do you know the gentlemen personally? Have you discussed their views with them?

"It was ten years ago"

Are you claiming that there is a Time-Limitation on government ministers' Gross Misconduct? Evidence that this is the case?

Come on Professor, we're all waiting with bated breath for your pearls of wisdom...


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 11:48 AM

"Come on Professor, we're all waiting with bated breath for your pearls of wisdom..."
That we should all live that long!!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 01:09 PM

Dave, I said, "Every post of yours puts you firmly on the anti-Green side,"

That is what I think.
Am I wrong, or not. Just tell us!

Steve,
The people defending him here are arch-Tories to a man,

He does not need defending because nothing has been produced to condemn him.
Not one thing.

Also, I for one am not any kind of Tory.
I used to vote Labour in the Blair days as I have told you many times before.

Backwoodsman,
This bellowed comment from the guy who has studiously ignored four questions which I've asked him directly not once, but twice!

When you claimed that before I pointed out that I had answered and repeated my answer.
If I really have missed something, put it up now and I will respond.

It will be a networked computer. There will be an audit-trail which will carry evidence of the person whose account was logged-in at the time the material was downloaded. Are you claiming that this audit-trail doesn't exist? Where is your evidence?

You are asking me for evidence of no evidence! No-one has produced this audit trail and Green would be a fool to deny it if there was a chance of it being produced.

Also, we know porn appeared on at least one other parliamentary computer without the users' knowledge.

Where is your evidence of this simply being a matter of them holding a 'grudge'? Do you know the gentlemen personally? Have you discussed their views with them?

Their careers were blighted by the furore due to their actions. Who would not bear a grudge?


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 01:19 PM

Bearing a grudge against the tories seems a perfectly reasonable state of mind to me...


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 01:31 PM

Dave, I said, "Every post of yours puts you firmly on the anti-Green side,"

That is what I think.
Am I wrong, or not. Just tell us!


First you ask why I am posting here now you seem to be avoiding my question by demanding that I answer yours. What have I told you about not being on the moderation team?

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 01:32 PM

This is very simple. He's been accused of viewing extreme porn on his work computer. The policeman declared that it is inconceivable that Green didn't know it was there. Yet Green said diddly-squat about it for nine years. If he didn't do it, he should sue his accusers and take them to the cleaners. In fact, one of the policemen is actually threatening to take legal action against Green for defaming him. On top of that he's been accused of inappropriate sexual advances by a Tory party worker. But Keith sez he has nothing to defend. If I were in his position and was innocent, I'd be defending myself like mad, I can tell you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 02:08 PM

Dave,

I expressed an opinion that your posts showed you to be anti-Green.
Are you complaining that I was wrong or that I was right?
Are you anti-Green or not?
If you are anti-Green I was right about you.
Apparently only arch Tory supporters are pro-Green. Is that you?

Steve,
Yet Green said diddly-squat about it for nine years.

He did not know about it for 9 years.
The policeman told no-one about it for 9 years.

If he didn't do it, he should sue his accusers and take them to the cleaners.

For what? The existence of porn 9 years ago can not be proved either way.
The police have said they are considering prosecuting the accusers.

There is nothing but unsubstantiated accusations of legal activity.

That is all you have, and it is nothing.
Many politicians are accused of sexual impropriety, but that is not what this thread was started over.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 02:25 PM

"Are you anti-Green or not?"
For Christ's sake Keith, grow up
Green dodged exposure all those years ago with the help o the guardians of the law
The probability is that, given the level of use of porn by politicians there is no reason to believe he wasn't among those using it, but nobody can know for certain one way or the other.
What is wrong is the cover-up system that operates to protect the great and the good
Why do you insist o0n reducing these discussions to their lowest common denominator "I win, you lose" level more often that not in defence of the most extreme aspects of modern society.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 02:33 PM

He sez he didn't know about it. As he would. You have not got a clue that he did or didn't, but you assert that he didn't. Well the policeman who uncovered the porn has stated that there's no way Green could not have known about it. According to your thinking, any paedophile or groomer in the country could say he didn't know what was on his computer and have nothing to answer for. Not how things work, Keith. You believe him because he's a Tory and you always believe Tories. It doesn't matter to you how improbable his excuses are. You didn't believe the Labour Party on antisemitism in spite of the fact that you had next to no evidence, is because they are lefties. Pathetic.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 03:57 PM

I expressed an opinion that your posts showed you to be anti-Green.

No you didn't, Keith.

You said, quite categorically

From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 04 Dec 17 - 08:36 AM
...
Every post you have made here has been against Green.


That is a statement of fact, not the expression of an opinion. Unless of course you are using a different language. Which is of course what I keep suggesting.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 04:29 PM

...well... struggling here to come up with a post for green...

errrmmm... he's got nice shoes...???


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Mr Red
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 04:41 PM

people can get addicted to anything, some have addictive natures. The driver is endorphins that are triggered by success.

And politicians are addicted to the power of winning, & of control.
They also have privileges, so the likelihood that there are politicians who have been embarrassed by their on-line activities then changing their methodology is a scenario hard to deny. We have the evidence. Two police officers and a victim.

Your choice is to demonise the complainants or the politician.

How ya gonna choose?


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 04:55 PM

Well Mr Red, let's just make things a bit more accurate. How's about: two *retired* police officers and the *second most powerful* politician in the land...


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 04:59 PM

Sod it. OK, the THIRD most powerful. Arlene Foster is the second. Or the first...


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 05:06 PM

addicted to the power of winning, & of control.

Not just politicians Mr R. You need look no further than Mudcat to find others ;-)

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Mr Red
Date: 07 Dec 17 - 04:39 AM

DtG - you can be so accurate at times!

I have toyed with pointing out that solipsism and sophistry** are an addiction as delineated in this parish. But that would be an insult and thread drift.
Damn it. I mean it as an insult.

Catch 22 anyone?





** or did I mean paralogism?         😡


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Dec 17 - 05:09 AM

Steve,
He sez he didn't know about it. As he would.

So he is guilty whether he admits or denies it?

You have not got a clue that he did or didn't, but you assert that he didn't.

I do not. I merely point out the absence of any hard evidence, just unsubstantiated claims.
No-one's career should be destroyed for that.

Dave,
Every post you have made here has been against Green.
That is a statement of fact, not the expression of an opinion


That is a statement of what I think and believe.
If I got it wrong I am sorry.
Was I wrong Dave? Are pro-Green?


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Dec 17 - 05:13 AM

That is a statement of what I think and believe.

Welcome to the world of gold mental gymnastics.

Different morality
Different language
Different planet

OK, Keith. As it seems so important to you and, to be honest, it has now become boring. You win.

:D tG


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Dec 17 - 05:17 AM

So, are you anti-Green or not Dave?


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Dec 17 - 05:17 AM

...but one final shot. If "Every post of yours puts you firmly on the anti-Green side" is a statement of what you think and believe then "Every post shows that you are a knobhead" is a statement of what I think and believe. We shall leave it up to other people to decide who's beliefs are more accurate.

:D


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Dec 17 - 05:20 AM

Dave, this thread is about the case of Damian Green.
Will you give your opinion on it or not?
If not, why not?


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Dec 17 - 05:21 AM

None of your business.

End of story.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Dec 17 - 05:27 AM

The claims that he used, if not also downloaded, porn on his work computer are not unsubstantiated. It was his computer. The porn was on it. That is substance. Not proof, though in my opinion he has a bit more explaining to do than simply denying everything. If I found porn on my computer I'd be racking my brain as to who could have known my password, etc., or finding out what was up with my firewall, and, once I'd found out, I'd take them to the cleaners. But he's apparently just sat on this for nine years. He needs to tell us how he investigated and dealt with the miscreant, if that's what he did. As I've repeatedly said, this issue is now public and whether that's legitimate or not is water under the bridge. He now has another sex allegation pending. He's not just another ordinary employee doing naughty-naughty at work during slack periods. He's second-in-charge of the country. His integrity is in question and denying everything simply doesn't cut it. Anyway, it's gone quiet on this for a day or two. I suppose he's hoping it'll go away. I think he could be mistaken.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Dec 17 - 06:27 AM

Life at work was so much simpler and easier in the much more innocent pre-internet ages..

You'd just have nudey calendars and pinups stuck on the office walls, and find communal mucky photo mags generously left in the gents bogs....


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Dec 17 - 07:21 AM

Dave,
None of your business.

Not just me. I am sure everyone is now intrigued to know your views on the thread subject.
Everyone else has expressed theirs, but dear little Dave is much too coy.
19 posts to the thread without actually expressing an opinion!
What are you like Dave?

Steve,
The claims that he used, if not also downloaded, porn on his work computer are not unsubstantiated. It was his computer. The porn was on it. That is substance

It is unsubstantiated that there was any porn at all.
If there was, it is unsubstantiated how it got there.
No substance whatsoever.

If I found porn on my computer I'd be racking my brain as to who...

He did not find it. The policeman claimed to have found it, but ten years too late for anyone to check.

But he's apparently just sat on this for nine years

No. The policeman did. You are back to making shit up again!

He needs to tell us how he investigated and dealt with the miscreant, if that's what he did.

He had no way of knowing there even was one, if indeed there was.
It is all entirely unsubstantiated by any scrap of hard evidence.

We do not do Stalinist show trials here yet.

He now has another sex allegation pending

No another. Just the one, and that is being properly and fully investigated.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Dec 17 - 07:33 AM

I'd hazard an educated guess that an ex senior cop would have kept some kind of informal personal record of evidence,
if only to cover himself if necessary at some indeterminate point in the future...

Even I use my phone cam to record just about every document I sign, or paperwork I need a quick reference of,
including photosnaps of on screen emails and suchlike.....


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Dec 17 - 07:44 AM

I am sure everyone is now intrigued to know your views on the thread subject.

I am equally sure they could not give a shit about my opinion. Can you not just accept that you have won? You have worn us down with your incessant mental gymnastics. Well done.

25 posts without actually doing anything useful at all.
What are you like Keith?

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Dec 17 - 08:27 AM

"Not just me. I am sure everyone is now intrigued to know your views on the thread subject."
Then why isn't everybody moronically demanding an answer (which you have already had)?
"We do not do Stalinist show trials here yet."
You appear to be rehearsing for them with your relentless interrogations of other members
You are doing exactly the same thing on the Brexit thread - maybe it's time to TRY ONE OF THESE
I repeat what I said earlier - it is a sign of megalomania to make statements on behalf of others without consulting them
You just go on defending Parliamentary porn and leave everybody else out of your sick campaign
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Dec 17 - 08:56 AM

Defending tories is definitely a sick campaign;
but let's not condemn all 'porn and porn users' by such diabolical associations..
Also, seems folks are more concerned with Green's internet mucky pictures,
than his alleged real world inappropriate predatory sexual advances
and abuse of high power over subordinates...???


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Dec 17 - 09:26 AM

I'm just concerned that the second-in-command of this country demonstrates to us that he's a decent and honourable man. The policeman is on record as saying that it is inconceivable that Green didn't see the porn. He will have his reasons for making that assertion and Green has done nothing to counteract it. As yet we are not privy to that information. Good post, by the way, pfr. I do all that as well. I even take photos of any car at Morrison's which is parked too close to mine...


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Dec 17 - 10:15 AM

Dave,
25 posts without actually doing anything useful at all.
What are you like Keith?


I have said what I think Dave, and so has everyone else except you.
What is your problem?

Steve,
and Green has done nothing to counteract it

What can he do but deny it?
What would you have him do?


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 07 Dec 17 - 10:38 AM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 07 Dec 17 - 09:26 AM
I'm just concerned that the second-in-command of this country demonstrates to us that he's a decent and honourable man. The policeman is on record as saying that it is inconceivable that Green didn't see the porn. He will have his reasons for making that assertion and Green has done nothing to counteract it. As yet we are not privy to that information.


I'm more concerned by the suspension of the 'presumption of innocence'. Green has denied the claims.
However, for most circumstances it is almost impossible to prove a negative. Showing us his current computer cannot prove his innocence.
But the police have nothing to prove his guilt.

This is why the 'presumption of innocence' is so important, and you can't just decide to suspend it for those you don't agree with. It must apply to all, equally.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Dec 17 - 10:44 AM

This is why the 'presumption of innocence' is so important, and you can't just decide to suspend it for those you don't agree with. It must apply to all, equally.

Agreed but this is a legal concept and even if he viewed pornography there is no crime. This is a moral issue to which no such failsafe applies. If you believe it should then you need to apply it to the gutter press who use smear and innuendo to discredit anyone they dislike and those who seem to believe and repeat every word they say. Particularly about left wing politicians.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Dec 17 - 11:00 AM

"I'm more concerned by the suspension of the 'presumption of innocence'. Green has denied the claims."
Then it doesn't concern you that the discovery of porn on the computer wasn't investigated at the time, which is an indication that it existed?
This seems to be an example of the establishment closing ranks (and their apologists rallying around them for thee same purpose)
People seem to be overlooking this accusation by a Tory activist

"Damian Green is Theresa Mays right-hand man in the Cabinet. He was accused of making flirtatious passes at a young Tory activist and touching her leg - accusations he denied"
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Dec 17 - 12:02 PM

But the police have nothing to prove his guilt.

It is not a police matter. No crime is alleged.
The police are considering taking action against the ex-cops.

Jim,
Then it doesn't concern you that the discovery of porn on the computer wasn't investigated at the time, which is an indication that it existed?

There is no evidence that it existed, apart from the allegations ten years later. If it did exist it was not a police matter because there was no criminal activity and it would have had no bearing on the investigation.

People seem to be overlooking this accusation by a Tory activist

It is currently being investigated. There is no cover up.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Dec 17 - 12:17 PM

"It is currently being investigated. There is no cover up."
It has been covered up for nine years
Stop defending Parliamentary hypocrisy Keith
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Dec 17 - 12:28 PM

Incidentally; Quick was "discredited for a misdemeanour

"Mr Quick resigned his post with the Metropolitan Police in 2009 after he was photographed entering Downing Street carrying a secret briefing note on which details of the undercover operation could be seen."

This misdemeanour has now been raised as part of the cover-up.

The Irish Government nearly collapsed last week after a similar affair
An honest police whistleblower reported a mass practice by the police of faking the number of breathalyzer tests - when he made his complaint, the authorities colluded with the heads of the police force to smear the whistleblower - this reached to the top echelons of Government
Last week the deputy Prime Minister was forced to resign because of her part in the cover up
This is what these people do
In the case of Green, MI5 were aware of the porn
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Dec 17 - 01:43 PM

It has been covered up for nine years

No it was not.
The cop never reported it for nine years. Until he did there was nothing to cover up.

In the case of Green, MI5 were aware of the porn

You have just made that up Jim.
You people are really desperate. If there is no evidence just make some up, as your mentors did in the show trials.
Decent people call it lying.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Dec 17 - 02:06 PM

So, Keith, when you make a false claim it is just you stating your opinion. If you believe someone else has made a false claim, it is a lie.

Different morality
Different language
Different planet

Strikes again.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Dec 17 - 02:20 PM

"You have just made that up Jim."
You do this every time Keith
M15 were present during the raid
Can't be arsed digging it up again for a moron like you, but this is a reference to national security being involved
The earlier reference was from The Telegraph
Green made maximum use of the documents to secure damaging headlines in the Daily Mail, Sunday Telegraph and other papers. The sustained and high-profile campaign went far beyond the normal trade in leaks between whistleblowing civil servants and opposition MPs ? with claims that some of the leaks involved national security.
The Cabinet Office called in Scotland Yard to investigate. Quick, an assistant commissioner who as head of the SO15 unit covered politically sensitive specialist operations, was instructed to take on the job.

Why do I waste my time with a moron who has no sense of self respect and seems happy to humiliate himself over and over
Coz I enjoy it - that's why
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Dec 17 - 02:43 PM

"Decent people call it lying."
And decent people call what you are doing Tuchas kising
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Dec 17 - 05:24 PM

Green hasn't committed a criminal offence by downloading and using pornography. He probably hasn't committed a criminal offence by touching a young woman's knee. It does seem to me that the policeman in question saw the second allegation, had in his possession information that he probably wasn't entitled to make public, but saw Green trying to call others liars for dissing him when it was clear to the policeman that the chap is quite possibly anything other than squeaky clean. It's no use trying to pretend that the porn wasn't there, Keith. The questions being asked of Green are whether he knew that the porn was there, whether he knew who downloaded it, if it wasn't him then what did he do to find out who did do it, and whether he used that porn in work time. I'll add one more question to those: why isn't he suing the policeman for defamation?


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Dec 17 - 04:06 AM

Steve,
It's no use trying to pretend that the porn wasn't there, Keith.

I am not. I merely point out that he denies it and the only evidence is an unsubstantiated claim by an ex-cop with reason to bear a grudge.

Jim, if there was no porn MI5 could not have been aware of it.
There is nothing anywhere to suggest that MI5 knew anything about any porn. You made that up Jim.

Dave, I did not make anything up.
It was the absolute truth that I inferred from your posts that you are not on Green's side.
If I was wrong you would be crowing about it.

I am sure that no-one here is in any doubt that as usual you agree with Steve, Jim and PFR, making me right all along.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Dec 17 - 04:13 AM

Different morality
Different language
Different planet

Not surprisingly everyone can see it but you, Keith.

You stated quite categorically that "Every post of yours puts you firmly on the anti-Green side" but could not provide any evidence of that. That is all we need to know.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Dec 17 - 04:13 AM

"
Jim, if there was no porn MI5 could not have been aware of it."
If there was, they covered it up
Of course we all realuise that MI5 have a record for truth and openness, so we have to believe them, don't we?
Do not accuse me of lying - you are the only one of this forum who lies constantly - habitually even
Reckon you missed your calling when you didn't join MI5
!I am sure that no-one here is in any doubt"
Your megalomania is showing again -- stop speaking for other people
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Dec 17 - 04:16 AM

Steve,
The questions being asked of Green are whether he knew that the porn was there,

He has answered that unequivocally. He says he did not.
That makes all your other questions pointless.

If the ex-cops are prosecuted he will not need to take any action.
I believe that if you bring a case for defamation the onus is on you to prove you are innocent. That would be impossible for him to do even if he is completely blameless.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Dec 17 - 04:26 AM

Dave,
You stated quite categorically that "Every post of yours puts you firmly on the anti-Green side"

Yes, and you can not deny that I was right about that.

but could not provide any evidence of that.

You made two posts that accepted Green's use of porn which he denies.
You made many posts sniping at those putting Green's case, but never criticised anything from your side, not even blatant lying.

I inferred correctly that you do not support Green.
If that is wrong, say so.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Dec 17 - 04:35 AM

errmmm... who is going to look even sillier when Green 'resigns to spend more time with his family...???


..of course with 'the full support' of the Prime Minister....


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Dec 17 - 04:40 AM

Still no evidence of "Every post you have made here has been against Green." then?

You made that up. Simple as that.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Dec 17 - 05:35 AM

dave,
Every post you have made here has been against Green." then?
You made that up. Simple as that.


I made nothing up. All your posts did show you to be against Green, and I was right wasn't I Dave?


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Dec 17 - 05:43 AM

It really is time we moved on from this idiocy - this has never been about the individual use of porn
Here it is about how elected public figures use work computers to access it; whether Green is one of those is, in the long run, immaterial - the figures of how many do are undeniable, though I have little doubt that Keith and his ilk would defend to the last every individual Tory who had done so and leap with both feet on every Labour member who has (as his running-mate Iians already has).
Arguments like this as far as they are concerned are political gesturings and have little to do with the subject under discussion   
These discussions should include the wider implications of the use of porn.
Today, the Irish Times has announced that one fifth of women doctors have been sexulally harrassed and/or bullied
There are no figures for the UK, bu it would be surprising if it wasn't similar.
We no what has happened in the Film and media industries, we know the appalling statistic of unreported rapes and the even more appalling ordeals women are put through when they dare accuse their predators.
Women are still very much second class citizens in these matters and treating them as commercial sex objects, as the porn industry does, it one of the major reasons why women are deprived of full citizenship.
I have always enjoyed sex - not as salacious voyeuristic titillation, but as a natural act of human expression.
Commercialising and marketing it it debases it and it debases the victims of it.
Let Keith defend his Tory role models till his eyeballs pop out but for crying out loud, leave him and his to wallow in their own swill.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 Dec 17 - 05:48 AM

"I made nothing up. All your posts did show you to be against Green, and I was right wasn't I Dave?"

You have been asked on numerous occasions to provide a post that shows that DtG is against Green.

You have utterly failed to do that, So either put up or shut up.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Dec 17 - 05:50 AM

The tories are a weird bunch...

Ranging at one extreme from those who see sex as a vile act only to be endured in order to procreate;
to at the other extreme, those tories who put their knobs in the mouth of dead pigs....

I suppose the average middle of the road tories would just want to make as much profit as possible from privatising sex...


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Dec 17 - 09:12 AM

Jim,
defend to the last every individual Tory who had done so and leap with both feet on every Labour member who has

I have not responded to any of the sexual allegations against any Labour people, and I have not defended any Tory over it.
With Green, Steve started in with an assumption of his guilt and false claims that he made up.
I have not defended Green at all, but merely pointed to the absence of any evidence beyond the unsubstantiated allegations of the ex-cops.

Rag,
"I made nothing up. All your posts did show you to be against Green, and I was right wasn't I Dave?"
You have been asked on numerous occasions to provide a post that shows that DtG is against Green.


There are two posts where Dave refers to Green's use of porn as if it was a fact, several more where he attacks people who have put Green's case, and no single post where he attacks any of his friends putting the case against even when they actually resort to lying.
They show him to be against Green as I said, and Dave can not deny that he is.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 Dec 17 - 09:23 AM

Copy and paste his posts, if you are so confident.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Dec 17 - 09:31 AM

No.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 Dec 17 - 09:41 AM

Is that because you cannot?


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Dec 17 - 11:09 AM

No. I have explained how I knew from his posts that Dave was in agreement with your little group about Green, and I was right.

It is ridiculous to fill the thread with this trivia.
I will discuss it further on pm if you insist, but too much here already.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Dec 17 - 11:33 AM

"http://nurseryrhymescollections.com/lyrics/i-m-the-king-of-the-castle.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Dec 17 - 11:50 AM

"beyond the unsubstantiated allegations of the ex-cops."
The allegations that the ex cops are lying are also unsubstantiated, yet you have described them as being "ex-cops with a grudge."
There has been no evidence put forward that they have a grudge - yet you put it down as a fact
The only accusation of them being "tainted" has been from a minister who's very position makes everything he says on this matter suspect, yet you put up his word as fact
Has there ever been evidence of "a grudge" or "tainted cops" before this suspect accused them of being so?
Yet you put up the word of a tainted minister" as fact
And you accuse us of rushing to judgement
Give us a break Keith - once again you have rammed your head far up the arse of the establishment to defend these shit-pots
Whate have you ever commented on the wide use of pornography by MPs, and if it is accurate, why shouldn't Green be guilty - he's also been accused of harassing a fellow Tory on a number of occasions - is she "tainted" too?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Dec 17 - 12:06 PM

Jim,
There has been no evidence put forward that they have a grudge

Yes there is. There was an outcry over their behaviour in locking Green up and raiding his family home and offices. He said himself his career had been blighted by it.

The allegations that the ex cops are lying are also unsubstantiated,

No-one has actually alleged that, but I have referred to the fact that there is no corroboration.

Yet you put up the word of a tainted minister" as fact

I have not. I merely report accurately that he denies it. And, he is not "tainted."


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Dec 17 - 12:22 PM

Read about the feud between Quick and Green here.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/dec/01/damian-green-decade-long-feud-met-officer-bob-quick


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Dec 17 - 12:29 PM

"And, he is not "tainted.""
He is every bit as "tainted" as the two cops you claimed
Bbo Quick has been accused of holding a grudge which he has not acted on for nine years, yet you say both cops are "tainted" - if they are on the basis of the word of an accused man, why isn't Green?
The main witness to Green's predilection to porn, Neil Lewis, said he had 'no doubt' the First Secretary of State had looked at the huge haul of grubby images".
What is he "tainted" by - that's what you have accused him of.
Is the lady fellow Tory who has accused him of being a dirty old man "tainted" as well?
Bit of a coincidence that one, don't you think?
Obviously not - after all, this is a Tory Government Minister we are talking about anf we all know, they don't DO THAT SORT OF THING
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 Dec 17 - 03:44 PM

All I ask is that you cut and paste just ONE post from DtG to support your assertion.

You have said that you will not.

I suggest that you CANNOT.

Prove me wrong.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Dec 17 - 04:00 PM

Keith - if you were to put as much time and obsession into learning to play a new musical instrument,
you'd be a virtuoso by the time all the rest of us eventually lose interest in a BS thread.....


Btw.. Green is a high ranking tory, he's bound to be guilty of something unsavoury.....


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Dec 17 - 05:39 PM

"bound to be guilty"
Does that mean he's into bondage too
mmmmm!!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Dec 17 - 05:21 AM

Pfr and Jim, he has been denounced and you can just make up the evidence against him like in the show trials of old.
I despair that you people have no concept of fairness and justice.

Jim, the ladies accusation is being fully investigated, like those against innumerable prominent people just now including politicians from all parties. One senior Labour person took his own life without waiting for the outcome. No-one here has passed any comment on any of that.
The cops' unsubstantiated claims are also being investigated.

Rag, I will reply by pm.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Dec 17 - 05:28 AM

"he has been denounced and you can just make up the evidence against him like in the show trials of old."
The show trials featured smearing and debasing people for an ulterior motive, as you have done with two people (on the basis of an accused dirty od man) in order to protect the reputation of a Governmnt minister
What evidence do you have that the two policemen who claimed to have seen the porn were lying - will you7 produce it before you send them to the Gulag?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Dec 17 - 05:40 AM

Jim,
What evidence do you have that the two policemen who claimed to have seen the porn were lying

I have none but without any evidence to corroborate the claims, the fact that they were not made until 9 years later and the fact of the 9 year feud would allow a defence to claim they were unreliable witnesses.

Even if true there is still no crime and it is impossible to prove he was responsible anyway.

It makes a very flimsy case for taking someone's job. Why are you people so determined to condemn a man on so little evidence? It is just politics to you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Dec 17 - 06:12 AM

The porn was reported at the time - nothing was done about it
They did not pursue it
The cat that Damien Green has been accused of this and two cases of harassing the same women makes him a far more unreliable witness
What are you so determined to defend a government minister with a track record like this and a Parliamentary environment of regular use of porn, when he is surrounded by so much evidence
Rhetorical question - because he is a Tory Minister, of course
You've condemned Labour politicians as being misogynist bullies and anti-semites on far less evidence than this
Go away Keith your syphanitism is sikening
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Dec 17 - 06:19 AM

I made nothing up. All your posts did show you to be against Green, and I was right wasn't I Dave?

Show us one post of mine that is against Green then. Really simple, If, as you say, all of my posts have been against Green you should be able to provide plenty but to date you have not provided one example. I wonder why that is.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Mr Red
Date: 09 Dec 17 - 06:20 AM

But the police have nothing to prove his guilt.

They did at the time, it is said.
Maybe the gov of the time decided that it was not a sufficiently serious issue to preserve the reports thereto. Thus placing the gov of the time firmly and irrevocably in the camp of the "Apple School of Computer Security".

As if viruses these days are viruses, as opposed to trojans, zombies and snoopware! If you wanted covert surveillance of a foreign country where would you target? And how would you entice?

Anyone ignoring a serving politician as a vector is missing the point. Porn is dangerous on a company PC. Double triple that on a gov computer. It doesn't have to have happened, it only has to have rules and opinions to make us safe!

The world and his brother are fixated on the porn as porn, we need to think of it as a Trojan Horse. And Horse porn is not for the faint-hearted.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Dec 17 - 06:34 AM

In fact, to make it even easier for you, here are the posts I made "Every post you have made here has been against Green."

From: Dave the Gnome - PM
Date: 04 Dec 17 - 04:37 AM

Just more made up shit by jom

I can understand you channeling Teribus in his absence, Iains, but there is no need to mimic Keith as well. He is still here.

FWIW I think all Tory MPs should watch as much porn as possible. May stop them fucking the country.

DtG

From: Dave the Gnome - PM
Date: 04 Dec 17 - 06:17 AM

So D the G you support the made up shit by your little packmates do you?

Where have I said I support anything? What made up shit and what little packmates? Your grasp of what goes on is equaled only by your lack of originality.

As to When reasoned argument fails, it is time to resort to insults. That is pretty rich coming from the abuser in chief himself. If you will excuse the phrase considering the circumstances. You couldn't make this shit up.

DtG

From: Dave the Gnome - PM
Date: 04 Dec 17 - 06:33 AM

I do support remaining in the EU. WTF has that got to do with Damian Green's liking for pornography?

I neither associate nor disassociate myself with anyone else's views on Mudcat. There is no such thing as 'little packmates'. Do you approve of Iains's constant abuse and invective?

DtG

From: Dave the Gnome - PM
Date: 04 Dec 17 - 06:59 AM

Definitely channeling Keith as well as terbus now.

Different morality
Different language
Different planet

DtG

There is only four and, as far as I can see there is no anti-Green sentiment in any of them.

Would you care to tell us how you arrived at the conclusion that every one of them was against Green or are you eventually going to admit that you made it up?

I suppose pigs might fly one day...

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Dec 17 - 06:36 AM

"And Horse porn is not for the faint-hearted"
Neigh - it most certainly is not
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 09 Dec 17 - 06:50 AM

I don't want Green brought down due to porn which he may, or may not, have watched.

I want him brought down for being complicit in The Gross Negligence Manslaughter Of The People, including we 1950s women whom he chose to utterly denounce when head of the DWP.

These Witch Hunt Media Trials are appalling.

They tried to pin such a charge on Rolf too, of course, despite the police KNOWING it wasn't he who'd viewed the sites and that they were LEGAL, and they'd viewed the computer of the person who HAD viewed them via Rolf's computer and found the same sites on there too.

The People are being driven to their deaths by these brutal, evil Tories and Green is one of them at the top. He deserves all that's coming to him, but let him be in Court for the RIGHT reasons.

By the way, for those not aware, case against Rolf in Portsmouth Community Centre (youngest so-called 'victim') overturned by Court of Appeal. She made the entire thing up, earned herself £22,000 and the rest, as she gave (sold?) many stories to the press too...and CPS not going to charge her with perjury as this would mean they and the police would have to disclose how they, basically, set Rolf up from the start...Entire trial now unsafe of course, but justice system clinging to its' raft of 'no further appeals!' at present...

And now, back to Damian.....


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Dec 17 - 07:07 AM

Jim,
The porn was reported at the time - nothing was done about it

You just made that up. It was not reported at the time.

What are you so determined to defend a government minister

I am not. I just point out to those who assume he is guilty just because of who he is that there is no actual evidence against him except the unsubstantiated claims of two unreliable witnesses nine years after the event.

Why are you so ready to condemn him without proper evidence? Rhetorical question - because he is a Tory Minister, of course

You've condemned Labour politicians as being misogynist bullies and anti-semites on far less evidence than this.

I have not. Those were all current accusations with corroborating hard evidence.

Mr.Red,
But the police have nothing to prove his guilt.

They did at the time, it is said.
Maybe the gov of the time decided that it was not a sufficiently serious issue to preserve the reports thereto.


It was a police investigation.

Dave, as I said there are two posts where you refer to Green's use of porn as if it were a fact, ignoring his denials and the absence of any hard evidence.
You also repeatedly and only attacked anyone who put Green's case but never criticised any of the anti-Green group even when they resorted to blatant lies against Green.
That was more than sufficient for me to know you are anti-Green, and I am right aren't I?
I will put the two posts in a pm to you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Dec 17 - 08:13 AM

There were four posts prior to you sating that "Every post you have made here has been against Green." Regardless of any views I have on Green, none of those posts are in any way, shape or form against Him. They are all there for everyone to see but you still insist that they say something that they obviously do not.

Different morality
Different language
Different planet

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Dec 17 - 08:27 AM

"You just made that up. It was not reported at the time."
This has become a kneejerk response to unpalatable facts
The results of the raid were reported by those who took part in it - that is part of police procedure
Do you honestly think that this was what was demanded from such an exercise?
"I have not. Those were all current accusations with corroborating hard evidence."
The "hard evidence" concerned criticism of Israel yet you opened several hreads and continud thm until the were closed down all accusing the Labour Party of Antisemitism - do you really not know that is Antisemitic by definition to associate the Jewish people with the actions of Israel.
Enough said on that subject
You have openly accused two policemen of lying and have said they were tainted - one of those has never been accused of anything, the other was guilty of a slip in protocol
You are making things up, not me
Silly little man
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Dec 17 - 11:10 AM

Jim,
The results of the raid were reported by those who took part in it - that is part of police procedure

Yes, but no porn was reported.
If it was it would be on the police file.

The "hard evidence" concerned criticism of Israel

No. There is nothing wrong with criticising Israel.

all accusing the Labour Party of Antisemitism - do you really not know that is Antisemitic by definition to associate the Jewish people with the actions of Israel.

Those accusations were made by Labour Party members and in most cases there were tweets or other hard evidence to corroborate them.
Give an example of one that I accused unreasonably.

You have openly accused two policemen of lying

I never have. I merely point out that because of the 9 year feud and because they did not report it until 9 years later, their unsubstantiated allegations are tainted.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Dec 17 - 11:24 AM

Dave,
There were four posts prior to you sating that "Every post you have made here has been against Green." Regardless of any views I have on Green, none of those posts are in any way, shape or form against Him

Yes they were. You posted about his use of porn as if it was an established fact, and attacked anyone who put his case.
It was obvious to me from that that you were against Green, and that is true, isn't it Dave?

Now, you have conceded defeat on this already, so why keep on and on about a trivial point you have already lost?

Write your silly litany about language and morality again for us to ignore one more time, then drop it you sad man.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 Dec 17 - 11:42 AM

Keith - hello..hello.. 21st Century calling.. hello.. 2017 calling Keith...

What on earth are you blathering on about Stalin show trials.. it's 2018 in less than a few weeks..

Which page of the reactionary debater's strategy play book says
"if in doubt, or sheer desperation, bring up associations of totalitarian Russian Communism to hurl at lefty opponents, and hope the smear sticks"...?????

No.. it's not that clever.... seriously....


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Dec 17 - 11:54 AM

Don't. Feed. The. Troll.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Dec 17 - 12:12 PM

"Don't. Feed. The. Troll."
I'll drink to that in Guinness tonight and probably come home drunk and fed the troll
Let's all heed these wide words folks - this clown usually stonewalls, as he is doing here, then, when all else fails, closes down the thread with constant diversion and repetition
Not this time eh?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 Dec 17 - 12:23 PM

Can't we just feed him a little bit.. it is nearly xmas after all.. goodwill to all men and that...

.. and he is our troll..
not just some unknown stray lurking in a back alley living in the bins....


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Dec 17 - 12:28 PM

Throw him a biscuit out of the car window as you drive over his bridge
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Dec 17 - 03:44 AM

You really have lost it big time haven't you Keith.

4 posts. None of them attacking Green as anyone can see yet you still insist they did and claim some sort of victory. You then resort to abuse which you have always reckoned is a sure sign that you have no sensible argument. No need for me to repeat anything when you make such a good job of showing everyone what you are really like. I think I shall join everyone else on here in ignoring you.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Dec 17 - 08:05 AM

Dave, you have already conceded this point 3 times but here you are raising it again!
That is sad Dave. Sorry.

Not overtly attacking Green is not enough to hide your opinion of him.
Your attacking one side only does that, and also you posted of his use of porn as if it was an established fact.
That is more than enough to show that you are once again in agreement with Steve, Rag, Backwoodsman, Jim and Pfr as you always are anyway.
If that is wrong, you could just say so Dave.

If you insist on continuing this ridiculous non-debate, I will only do it on pm. (I already started but you and Rag ignored them.)
Continuing it here would make me as sad as you!


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Raggytash
Date: 10 Dec 17 - 08:33 AM

"I pmd you because you asked for stuff that I could not justify putting in the Damian Green thread because it was so trivial"

You made an unfounded and incorrect accusation against another member of this forum, that is not a trivial matter.

You have been unable too substantiate that accusation and thought you could get away from it by making a personal note.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Dec 17 - 08:58 AM

For FUCK'S sake - DON'T FEED THE FUCKING TROLL!

Ignore the feeble-minded prick, continue discussing with others but ignore him. This kind of horse-shit, driven by him, is the reason so many other people have left the forum. He's pulling your pissers and, by constantly reacting to him, you're allowing him to play you.

Wise up, for fuck's sake!


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: bobad
Date: 10 Dec 17 - 10:18 AM

Don't you just hate it when someone interrupts the circle jerk.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Dec 17 - 10:25 AM

I refuse to use the word 'troll', and will not be shouted at to ignore anyone...
I will not be dictated to...
Likewise, I will not fall for and play any disruptive problematic forum member's abjectly idiotic power trip games..
I come here to interact on my own terms, as suits and amuses me....

So...

Keith - So why wouldn't most intelligent and sane observers agree a senior tory politician is by definition extremely ruthless,
and most probably morally corrupt...???


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Dec 17 - 10:45 AM

"l will not be dictated to..."

I was offering strongly-worded advice, pfr. Only Max or the Mods have the power to 'dictate' here.

"Likewise, I will not fall for and play any disruptive problematic forum member's idiotic power-trip games"

Then you went right ahead and did it! Oh, the delicious irony!


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: bobad
Date: 10 Dec 17 - 10:49 AM

This kind of horse-shit, driven by him, is the reason so many other people have left the forum.

Everyone I know who has left says otherwise but when you're a member of a pack everyone who isn't is prey.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Dec 17 - 11:22 AM

BWS - Oh no I didn't......

I was informed by a high rank mod well over a year ago, of reasons why I should stop arguing with Keith.
Which I readily agreed to do, as I'd formed my own suspicions of why he behaves as he does.
I'd already told Keith he could never draw me into his wanky games...

Though nobody said I couldn't play my own with him...

Keith is by no means the only daft prick at mudcat... there's enough of us to fill endless BS threads...


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Dec 17 - 12:57 PM

Rag,
You made an unfounded and incorrect accusation against another member of this forum, that is not a trivial matter.

Of course it is.
False accusations against members are made all the time. Just today and yesterday you gave false decriptions of what I said on the Brexit thread.

What I said about Dave was actually correct. He is anti-Green.
And, that is obvious from his posts justs as I said.

Pfr,
Keith - So why wouldn't most intelligent and sane observers agree a senior tory politician is by definition extremely ruthless,
and most probably morally corrupt...???


Most intelligent and sane observers do not share your disdain for Tories. That is why they keep getting elected. An intelligent sane observer should have observed that for themself .


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Dec 17 - 01:06 PM

Keith - I'll leave response to your estimation of the sanity and intelligence of tory electorate to other mudcatters...

I'm off to finish cooking chicken and chips and watch a 'good' big budget half witted loud brash Hollywood movie...


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Dec 17 - 01:08 PM

Enjoy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Raggytash
Date: 10 Dec 17 - 01:09 PM

I'll take your advice Backwoodsman, I've proposed such myself in the past.

Little billy no mates will find himself alone.

Oh dear, ,how sad, never mind to quote a well known Television programme.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Dec 17 - 02:04 PM

What I said about Dave was actually correct.

No it fucking wasn't. You said "Every post you have made here has been against Green." which is blatantly untrue. I have proved it to be false and you have spectacularly failed to come up with any examples. No matter how often you repeat the lie, Keith, it does not make it right. I started a thread recently about grammar. One thing I got out of it was that simplicity of language is always preferable. So, in the spirit of that I will keep in simple. Keith, you are a wanker. The true meaning of that is that your actions please no one but yourself. Also in the spirit of bevity. Fuck of with your nonsense.

Yes PFR, I have also had the same thing pointed out by a number of people and, yes, it is true.

BWM. Agreed, but when people tell blatant untruths it is difficult to sit back and do nothing. Maybe we should have some sort of code to show that these things have been noted but are being astutely ignored? Musket came up with a good phrase that could just be summed up with a couple of initials. TC. How about that?

:D tG


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Dec 17 - 02:08 PM

PFR - you're one of the Good Guys, I've no wish to get at loggerheads with you. Pax.

Now I'm out.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Dec 17 - 02:14 PM

DtG - I'll be belting a few songs out at Musket's club on Wednesday, I'll tell him he's still remembered with affection!


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Dec 17 - 04:53 PM

"I've no wish to get at loggerheads with you."

God no, John. That would be a turtle disaster!

"He's pulling your pissers"

Blimey, John, haven't heard that since I worked with the horny-handed sons of toil on Radcliffe Parks in 1972! A related pejorative of the time, used against those big girl's blouse blokes who fell a little short of being "men's men," was that they probably thought that their dicks were for pissing out of...


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Dec 17 - 03:23 AM

Yeah, we still talk that ole-fashioned talk out here in the Backwoods, Steve! :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Dec 17 - 03:44 AM

Looks like the troll managed to divert this subject away from the awkward facts and turn it into a personal slanging match thus allowing Pervy Damien to ride off unscathed into the sunset
PITY
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 Dec 17 - 03:50 AM

BWM - No problems or hard feelings with anyone here...

life under tories is too deadly serious to take anything in hobby forums too serious...


emoticon test ?? [cheeky winky sticky out tongue]


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 Dec 17 - 04:05 AM

BBC news seems have have gone a bit quiet on Green....???

This is where the tories are experts at this kind of negative muck raking and smear campaigning...

If a Labour minister had been accused of having a sly wank and groping an assistant at work,
the tory press would be pressuring the Beeb to keep this slur story alive for months...


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Dec 17 - 04:08 AM

"Looks like the troll managed to divert this subject away from the awkward facts and turn it into a personal slanging match thus allowing Pervy Damien to ride off unscathed into the sunset"

There really is only one way to deal with his ilk, and that is to ignore them completely? You will never change them or their opinions by getting into arguments with them. They don't come here to discuss, all they want is to cause disagreement, division and rancour. They get a massive hard-on from seeing the result of their efforts to achieve those things. When you destroy the arguments they put forward, they wriggle, they ignore your points, they twist your words, and they lie.

In short, they are worthless pieces of shit, undeserving of anyone's attention here.

Freeze them out.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Dec 17 - 04:36 AM

"Freeze them out."
Ah - but what will we do with all those shiny MEDALS and TROPHIES
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Dec 17 - 04:38 AM

Jim,
Pervy Damien

Have you found some actual evidence against him Jim, or are you believing your own lies. (MI5 aware of the porn, the porn reported at the time. Just lies Jim.)

Dave,
What I said about Dave was actually correct.
No it fucking wasn't


If you are anti-Green it was correct, and you can not deny that fact.
If you think you hid that in your posts you are deluded.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Dec 17 - 04:46 AM

And there my case rests, M'Lud....


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Dec 17 - 04:50 AM

Mine too, and you can not identify a single hole in it.
(Or can you? Will you state what I have got wrong?)


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Dec 17 - 05:09 AM

"you can not identify a single hole in it."
"I WON"
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Dec 17 - 08:25 AM

The Humpty Dumpty theory of language

Ring any bells?

:D tG


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Dec 17 - 09:31 AM

Laugh away, but the fact remains that none of you can find any fault in anything I have said about Green, while I have pointed out the absence of evidence for your claims about him including blatant lies from Steve and Jim.

Unable to answer what I say, the whole crowd of you now runs and hides.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Dec 17 - 10:24 AM

We're not laughing, Keith. Believe me, we're not laughing. No-one laughs at the deliberate self-immolation of a pathetic deludee. Not much longer now...


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: bobad
Date: 11 Dec 17 - 10:31 AM

But you can't let go, can you............lolol.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Dec 17 - 11:18 AM

Not much longer now...

Probably not.
Ake has been removed.
Teribus has been removed.

Soon there will be no-one here to challenge your views.
No diversity of opinion and no platform for anyone who disagrees with you people.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Dec 17 - 12:19 PM

You've still got boobs and Iains to keep you warm, you lucky lad!

I tend to think that people remove themselves by being very very silly...

Go to the joke threads, Keith, and give us the benefit of your massive sense of humour. Keep it clean now... Failing that, how's about a recipe or three? I'm doing Jamie Oliver's pork fillet and mash tonight. What vin rouge would you recommend to go with it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Iains
Date: 11 Dec 17 - 12:27 PM

"You've still got boobs and Iains to keep you warm, you lucky lad!"

Still being a fool Shaw.

Very shortly you will only have your packrats to play with.To quote your fellow rat (ad nauseam)

Different morality
Different language
Different planet

and in your case, no morals at all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: bobad
Date: 11 Dec 17 - 12:28 PM

Soon there will be no-one here to challenge your views.

I'm sure the thought of that has them breathing hard just imagining how they can finally enjoy their ideological circle jerks without having to account for their lies and dissembling, why even the mods can join in without the worry of having to delete anyone's posts.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Dec 17 - 12:29 PM

And before you butt in, Dave, well done Morrisons for having the Nero d'Avola down to a fiver...and giving me not one but two five quid vouchers at once...and giving me 10p a litre off petrol twice... I'll raise a glass to Sir Ken tonight if I'm allowed to undo a bottle... The turkeys had better be good...


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Dec 17 - 12:30 PM

Cor, don't they hover!


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: bobad
Date: 11 Dec 17 - 12:45 PM

Makes you uncomfortable does it Shaw?


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Dec 17 - 12:48 PM

And another infestation of trolls appear on the horizon to defend the indefensible
Feed them and they'll only hang around for more Steve
I think you'll find Iain's infantile abuse about as high as it gets
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Dec 17 - 12:57 PM

"Soon there will be "NOBODY HERE to challenge your views"
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Dec 17 - 01:14 PM

Nah, to quote Denis Healey on what it was like to debate with Geoffrey Howe, it's like being savaged by a dead sheep. He also called Maggie Thatcher "virago intacta." Must remember that one!


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Dec 17 - 03:13 PM

It was all down to me, Steve. Send me the reward when you get a minute :-) Jim and BWM are right about the troll thing you know though. I have had a road to Domestos moment and seen the light!

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 Dec 17 - 03:23 PM

What.. Ake and Tezzer exiled for ever...!!!???..

that's news to me...
We could do with a mudcat bulletin board to keep up to date with births deaths and banishments...


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Dec 17 - 04:41 PM

Wanted to find a quick route to Surrey, Dave, but my bloody satnav couldn't find the road to damn Ascot...

You'll get your reward, Dave, once you persuade the management of Bude Morrisons to keep that big hole on the shelf marked "sorry, temporarily unavailable" well stocked with the Nero d'Avola. I challenged the wine aisle bloke the other day, saying that I bet he had crates of the stuff in the back room ready for when the price went back up to six quid. He looked guilty. Grr...


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Dec 17 - 04:57 PM

The Daily Mail wine bloke (I got a free copy In Waitrose, honest!) stated without fear or favour last week that the Coop £4.99 Nero d'Avola is the best value red wine available in Britain today. But did Bude Coop have it? Why, of course bloody not! As I'm oop north next week I'll have to see if I can pinpoint a decent-size Coop and pray that northerners don't read the Mail. Do they actually sell any copies north of Watford Gap?


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Dec 17 - 04:09 AM

Labour MP Clive Lewis was accused of groping by another labour supporter at Conference.
She made a complaint and the Party began an investigation.

From his political opponents here there came no presumption of his guilt.
No-one called him "purvey" and no-one made up false facts about the case.
There seems to be a difference in morality between the two political groups, Hard Left and Centrist.

The Labour investigation has cleared him, which presumably means they accuse the lady of lying.

I predict that no-one here will challenge the finding.

Peston revealed on TV last night that the enquiry into Green will allow him to remain in post.
I doubt his opponents here will accept that for a moment.
A different morality, devoid of concepts of fairness and justice.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Dec 17 - 04:48 AM

Keith
Two policemen were accused of being unreliable (by you and the accused) on no evidence whatever
You have no right to accuse others of of being unjust when you behave like that
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Dec 17 - 04:51 AM

By the way
Damien Green is a serial 'accused" in an organization where the use of porn and the harassment of women is commonplace
That is every reason to belive his guilt possible
Is his fellow Tory who accused him of harassment a liar along with the policemen you have accused of being - is the truth just confined to those at the very top of the heap?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Dec 17 - 05:08 AM

Jim, ignore the troll.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Iains
Date: 12 Dec 17 - 05:20 AM

Is this a new defintion of troll? Someone that dares to disagree with the mudrateers?


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Dec 17 - 05:22 AM

...and that one :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Dec 17 - 05:34 AM

Yeah Dave - had my fillip f fun this morning
Back to the real world
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Dec 17 - 06:23 AM

Jim,
Two policemen were accused of being unreliable (by you and the accused) on no evidence whatever

I said a defence in court would deem it unreliable because of the 9 year feud, and because it was not reported at the time.

That is every reason to belive his guilt possible

Of course it is possible, but it is unjust and unfair to just assume it either of Green or Lewis.

Lewis' accuser was a Party supporter too.
Green's accuser claimed that he "hit on her." That can just mean flirting, but if he did harass her that is shameful. The Labour woman was deemed a liar by the Labour enquiry.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: bobad
Date: 12 Dec 17 - 08:23 AM

Is this a new defintion of troll? Someone that dares to disagree with the mudrateers?

Not new, it has always been thus with them. If you know anything about those who are confined by an ideological straitjacket it's that they cannot abide opposition and deal with it by putting labels and childish names on those who dare to disagree with them - it makes them feel superior.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Dec 17 - 08:30 AM

"I said a defence in court would deem it unreliable because of the 9 year feud, and because it was not reported at the time."
You lied - there was never a sign of the feud until Green invented it and one of those policemen was in no way involved anyway
Do you honestly think you can defend a high ranking politician by accusing responsible policemen of things they have never been found guilty of, otr even involved in?
How come no other of the 20 policemen involved in the raid have come forward to claim that there was no porn ?
There must have been more police witnesses as Green was arrested at the time for a supposed security breach - don't you think they would have examined his computer at the time?
All that the police have ever said is that it was not the job of the police to comment on the contents of the computer - if there was no porn on it, they would have come forward before now
Coffe time lapse Dave - done the damage, now I'm off
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Dec 17 - 08:52 AM

Jim,
You lied - there was never a sign of the feud until Green invented it

No, you lie.
Here is the link I gave you earlier.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/dec/01/damian-green-decade-long-feud-met-officer-bob-quick

How come no other of the 20 policemen involved in the raid have come forward to claim that there was no porn ?

Or, that there was?

There must have been more police witnesses as Green was arrested at the time for a supposed security breach - don't you think they would have examined his computer at the time?

Yes! You make my case for me.

if there was no porn on it, they would have come forward before now

They would not come forward to report nothing to report, but if there WAS porn, ........


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: bobad
Date: 12 Dec 17 - 08:56 AM

This is a nice little read, How to Deal with a Progressive Bully. Raise your hand if you recognize anybody in the piece.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Dec 17 - 09:11 AM

"They would not come forward to report nothing to report, but if there WAS porn, ........"
Yesterday Sir Thomas Winsor, the chief inspector of constabulary, was critical of former officers who had breached what he believed should be lifelong pledges of confidentiality. He said: ?The special powers which citizens confer on police officers are inseparable from the obligations of special trust placed in officers to enable them to do their duty. That trust requires every officer to respect and keep confidential information which they obtain in the course of their duties and which is irrelevant to their inquiries and discloses no criminal conduct. The obligation of confidentiality, and the duty not to break trust, is an enduring one. It does not end when a police officer retires.?
"Raise your hand if you recognize anybody in the piece."
Only a moron considers information and argument "bulltying" Bobad
Raise your hand if you recognize that descriptiuon
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: bobad
Date: 12 Dec 17 - 09:17 AM

Only a moron considers information and argument "bulltying" Bobad

Lol......it's hard for some people not to put their foot right into it. Sweet irony, don't you just love it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Dec 17 - 11:40 AM

Jim, it has been widely reported that the ex-cops would be in breach of the rules for revealing information, and may be prosecuted for it.

That could be why their evidence is uncorroborated, but it remains an unsubstantiated claim of perfectly legal behaviour that Green denies.
It has been investigated and, according to Peston, like Clive Lewis he will keep his job.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Dec 17 - 12:15 PM

" it has been widely reported that the ex-cops would be in breach of the rules for revealing information, and may be prosecuted for it."
Not because the information was wrong, just that they shouldn't have made it public, which was exactly my point
THe roke the rules by exposing what a leading member of the establishment was up to.
They were whistleblowers - whistlblowers always run the risk of persecution when they tell things that are uncomfortable to the powers that be
Your accusations of lying against the two policemen are totally unsubstantiated - you are the only one to have described on of them as "untrustworthy"   
Your an establishment arse-kisser Keith
What's your point here?
If you can accuse two policemen without proof, why can't we assume that a minister from a culture of porn-users has a stack of the stuff piled up on his computer = especially as he has also been accused separately by a fellow Tory of being a sexual predator?
Sounds like a dirty old man to me
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Raggytash
Date: 12 Dec 17 - 12:29 PM

The fact remains Jim that looking at porn is not illegal (for the most part)

What Davis should be sacked for is doing so (if the allegations prove to be true) at work and on a computer provided by his employers, that is us, the people.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Dec 17 - 12:56 PM

"The fact remains Jim that looking at porn is not illegal"
No it isn't Rag, though whether it should be is debateble
This isn't about the use of porn illegally, it's about a lying minister denying its use and smearing two people have claimed to have seen it
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Dec 17 - 01:25 PM

So a comparison was made earlier between Labour MP Clive Lewis and Tory Damien Green...

Lewis looks like a very capable and interesting chap,
but if he has a tendency to disrespect women, or at least attract complaints,
then the party needs to keep a long term close eye on his attitudes and behaviour...

Whilst Lewis may be an ex shadow minister;
he is hardly in the same league as the 2nd most powerful politician in British Parliament, Groper Green...

A position which requires much closer public scrutiny,
and a character of utmost integrity, honesty, and trustworthiness..

Green does seem lacking in all those essential areas...


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Dec 17 - 01:38 PM

"Groper Green..."
Isn't there a folk son with that name?
D'you thin there should be punishment for pulling your pud at the taxpayer's expense?
Waddya think Keith ?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Dec 17 - 01:47 PM

Your accusations of lying against the two policemen are totally unsubstantiated

I have made no such accusation. I just point out that such unsubstantiated claims from people with history would be challenged in court. You would not get a conviction on just that.

"Groper Green..."

Green is not accused of groping. That was Clive Lewis. The Labour Party enquiry presumably chose not believe the woman's uncorroborated claim.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Dec 17 - 01:49 PM

D'you thin there should be punishment for pulling your pud at the taxpayer's expense?

He denies it Jim. How do you know he is guilty?
Just prejudice Jim.
No court would convict on such flimsy evidence


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Dec 17 - 01:53 PM

"I have made no such accusation. "
You said there was no porn on the compter and that the untrustworthy policemen lied about it
"Groper Green"
Knee fondling and propositioning actually
Not much difference when you are one of his victims - or do you have a sliding scale of sexual assaults like you do with state atrcocities
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Iains
Date: 12 Dec 17 - 02:08 PM

Wonderful how the mudrats consistently confuse fact and fiction. It seems a common failing with all of them. They work up a complete fantasy on the unsubstantiated allegations of a couple of discredited coppers. The more senior one overstepped the mark by barging into an
MP's office, without even a search warrant, and took away materials.
Later he was photographed entering Downing Street clutching a confidential document. This was a convenient device enabling the removal of an embarrassment to everyone, not least the police. He was a high flier that flew too close to the sun and did a very poor Icarus impersonation. He crashed and burnt and held a grudge for the next nine years. Discredited is the least of his problems. But jimmy has elected him to sainthood. I suspect the halo would end up a ;little singed if this affair ever came to court.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Raggytash
Date: 12 Dec 17 - 02:14 PM

I do not know if the police officer in question has done so, but if I were in his shoes I would damned sure I had back up evidence nicely stored away from prying eyes so that if Green was to try and sue me I could produce said evidence in court.

I wonder why Green hasn't gone down that route.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Dec 17 - 02:30 PM

"But jimmy has elected him to sainthood"
Nope - I have said his word is as good as serial sex pest - that' all
It wasn't those who carried out the raid's job to obtain a warrant - it was the job of those who ordered the raid
Mors made up crap about the character of the accusee
You establishment arese-lickrs woul a say that, wouldn't you?
When in doubt - smear
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Dec 17 - 02:40 PM

Iains - that reads so much like a word for word tory party line defense kit counter attack....


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Dec 17 - 04:44 PM

How are these ex-policemen "discredited" and who did the discrediting?

If I were subjected to an attempted character assassination by a worried Tory I'd wear it as a badge of honour...


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Iains
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 04:06 AM

"How are these ex-policemen "discredited" and who did the discrediting?"

You having a blond moment shaw?


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 04:13 AM

How are these ex-policemen "discredited" and who did the discrediting?


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 04:20 AM

"You having a blond moment shaw?"
You people are CARICATURES of this rotten society Iains - one wheedling hand wringer of behalf of the great and good, the other a blustering bully who believes they can talk people down if they are unable to produce an intelligent response.
When the police were saying the right things, as with the racially motivated killings in Manchester, their word is the end; here, when a couple of policemen suggest a senior politician might have done wrong they become discredited liars." acting out of self interest and revenge.
Damien Green appears to be a serial sex pest - his victim, a fellow Tory, appears to have no interest for you pair in all this - probably a "discredited liar" too.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 04:55 AM

You said there was no porn on the compter and that the untrustworthy policemen lied about it

I did not Jim.

We do not know if anyone is lying. There could have been porn on the computer. He might be responsible.It is just that neither is proven.

So why start a thread devoted to celebrating his guilt?
Why do you all assume it?
Why have you and Steve actually made up false facts about the case.

It is all political hysteria that we only get from you lot.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 05:26 AM

"I did not Jim."#You have implied as much since the beginning
You described the police as "discredited" on the basis of the wotrd of the accused, though one has never been described thus - you made it up.
"So why start a thread devoted to celebrating his guilt?"
Because there's no reason to belive he isn't - porn is as common as cheese and lettuce sandwiches in the parliamentary suystem and the fellr is obviously a sex predator a set up that seems to GO IN FOR THAT SORT OF THING
Still nothing on the actuations of a fellow Tory - not even worth a mention!
What will probably happen here is that Greene's 'little peccadillos' will be swept under the carpet and eventually forgotten and his victim will probably be bought off on the understanding that she never raises the matter again - every time, with these people!!
You pair are virtually Dickensian in your defence of the great and the good - one Uriah Heep , the other, Whackford Squeers
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 05:54 AM

Your cabal regard the two cops as not to be trusted, potentially lying, doing made up shit, bearing a grudge, out of order, should be prosecuted, let's throw the keys away etc, the very epitome of "discredited."

So lemme ask again, Keith. The claims of you and Iains aside, how are these ex-policemen "discredited" and who did the discrediting? Do opinionated statements emanating from Green's Tory allies or (the arguably discredited) Cressida Dick, or other members of the establishment, sufficient to have us branding them "discredited," or is that just another throwaway remark of the "vulgar and fraudulent" ilk?

Are you just a jealous baldie slaphead, Iains? Far from being blonde, I'm a fiercely-bearded dark-haired Celtic type. Grr. Mind you, I've known some very nice blonde ladies... Don't bother sending a photo.

And don't even mention gingers. Oops, wrong thread...


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Raggytash
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 06:07 AM

Like I said yesterday Steve, Damien Green could take the matter to court and sue the police officers for defamation. I'm sure he has the resources to do so and would get the backing of the party if he needed.

All a bit strange.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 06:31 AM

Yep, I'm sure he has his reasons for not wanting to up the ante. Having your porn habit aired in public, even if not illegal, must be bloody embarrassing. Just look at how Iains went ballistic when I suggested that he'd implicated himself thus. Of course, if the whole thing is a pack of trumped-up lies, Green would have nothing to fear by suing, would he? As you say, very strange...


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 06:36 AM

Rag,

Like I said yesterday Steve, Damien Green could take the matter to court and sue the police officers for defamation.


I answered that before.
The investigation is not complete, and to bring such a case requires you to prove it is false.
No-one can prove that they did not look at porn ten years ago.

Jim,
You said there was no porn on the compter and that the untrustworthy policemen lied about it

That was a lie Jim. Now you just claim,
You have implied as much since the beginning

Again, I have not.
Now Steve adds his lies,

Your cabal regard the two cops as not to be trusted, potentially lying, doing made up shit, bearing a grudge, out of order, should be prosecuted, let's throw the keys away etc, the very epitome of "discredited."


All made up shit, but I did point out the long standing feud as described by the Guardian piece I liked to, twice.

Many prominent people are currently accused of sexual misbehaviour, including members of all our main parties.

This one may or may not be true. We just have unsubstantiated allegations made nine years later by ex-cops with a grudge. It would not stand up in court.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Iains
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 06:46 AM

Losing the argument Jimmie? So bring up the racist card. What a twat!


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 06:46 AM

Ignore the troll.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Raggytash
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 06:48 AM

Did you detect an echo Steve, I'm sure my last post started "Like I said yesterday STEVE"


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 06:52 AM

or should I say trolls


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 06:59 AM

You accuse me of typing made up shit, etc, then you negate that in your own post! In other parts of this thread we've had Iains calling for them to be slung into jail and we've had constant accusations of their bearing a grudge (an accusation, without knowing the characters of the men, that you can't support: it's perfectly possible for mature adults to feel that they've been wronged or dissed without turning it into a grudge) and, by constantly claiming that there's no evidence for the porn, you're implying that they are lying. And the word "discredited" has been thrown around repeatedly, though you can't explain who did the discrediting, bar you and Iains. One little point that I should reiterate: the policeman's nine-year-long knowledge of the porn was not made public until four days after the allegations from the Tory party female worker came out. That sounds to me like the cop wanting to add weight to her allegations. In other words, he may have thought he was acting in the public interest. He certainly was never going to make a fortune from the Mail printing "his story." I would never claim that he wasn't out of order technically in making it public. But, to coin a cliche, we are where we are. And where we are is that Green has a lot of explaining to do, protective establishment attack-dogs notwithstanding. His integrity is severely in doubt whether you like it or not.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 07:23 AM

"Losing the argument Jimmie? So bring up the racist card. What a twat!"
That's about the height of this pair's contribution - intellect to the fore as usual
My point was not about race it was about Keith's double standards between police who stick to the script and those who do not
"Ignore the troll."
Right you are - the blast from under this particular bridge is beyond a joke
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 07:24 AM

His integrity is severely in doubt whether you like it or not.

Yes it is.

Why is Cressida Dick "arguably discredited?"
Are you claiming an establishment cover up?
I think you are deluded.

Like so many other similar cases, there may be something in it, but we will never know.
A female Labour member accused Lewis of groping her.
Labour investigated and exonerated him.
She lied or a Labour cover up? I do not know but I would not start a thread celebrating his guilt and make up facts because of the absence of any real ones.
Why do you people behave like that?


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 08:05 AM

So who's "exonerated" Green then, Keith?

I'm no fan of Ivan Lewis even though he's a good local MP, etc. (he's my parents' MP as it happens). He was targeted by a Gordon Brown "hit-squad" smear in an attempt to discredit him after he'd embarrassed Brown. He's not squeaky-clean. As far as I know, proceedings are ongoing. I don't see what he has to do with this thread. Still, gnaw away. I know you will. If I tell you that he's a big noise in Labour Friends Of Israel (my dad refuses to vote for him), will that mollify you? Hilarious-laughter emojee...

Cressida Dick was in charge of the operation that led to the disgusting and brutal slaughter of Jean-Charles Menezes who was a complete innocent. The establishment looked after her and promoted her when, in my opinion and in the opinion of many other people, she should have disappeared from public view for ever at the very least. Jean-Charles' family and public opinion in Brazil have never accepted the cover-ups. Right, Keith. I've answered that question. Don't start on that unless you start another thread on it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 08:09 AM

Jim,
Knee fondling and propositioning actually

ITV,
"Writing in The Times, Kate Maltby accused the First Secretary of State of "fleetingly" touching her knee during a 2015 meeting in a London pub, and of sending her a "suggestive" text two years later. "


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 08:14 AM

Steve,
So who's "exonerated" Green then, Keith?

No-one has.
Peston claimed on TV that the enquiry will, but nothing official yet.

Why do you people assume his guilt, start a thread all about how guilty he is, and make up facts to compensate for the absence of any real ones?

You all just become irrational about anything involving a Tory!


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 08:19 AM

""fleetingly" touching her knee "
So?
Are there degrees of sexual harassment in your book just as there are degrees of atrocities and crimes against humanity?
I suppose there are really
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 09:10 AM

From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 08:19 AM
""fleetingly" touching her knee "
So?
Are there degrees of sexual harassment in your book just as there are degrees of atrocities and crimes against humanity?
I suppose there are really


I don't know Keith's opinion, but I would think there must be 'degrees' in such matters.
Whether the fleeting touch of the knee would classify as 'sexual harrassment' I don't know. But it is certainly less serious than grabbing a woman by the bust, which, in turn, is less serious than forced rape.

Do you, Jim, feel each of those three things are of the same degree? And do you think that they are all equally totally abhorrent? And should someone found guilty of any one of them receive the same sentence?
If you do feel that they are all of the same degree, then once having touched a knee, a man may as well go ahead and commit rape. You say they're all equivalent anyway.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 09:16 AM

Of course, Jim, your view of it is quite Biblical in its approach.
Matthew 5: 27-28:
"You heard it was said, 'Do not commit adultery,' but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman in order to covet her has already committed adultery with her in his heart."


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 09:50 AM

"You all just become irrational about anything involving a Tory!"

Seems perfectly rational to relish tories squirming in humiliation and disgrace...

Tory sex & corruption scandals are always good for a laugh in these increasingly dispairing times....


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Iains
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 10:30 AM

Tory sex & corruption scandals are always good for a laugh in these increasingly dispairing times...."

Not just the tories at pestminster . Lets have a really good laugh and look at labour as well.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 10:38 AM

pestminster "404 - File or directory not found.
The resource you are looking for might have been removed, had its name changed, or is temporarily unavailable."...???



lets not exclude Liberals and Greens...

All are potentially fallible...
.. it's just the tories can usually be relied on to amuse us with the most spectacularly squalid political scandals...

It's one thing they have a talent for doing better than all others...

I'll at least give 'em credit for that...!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 11:45 AM

"Of course, Jim, your view of it is quite Biblical in its approach."
If you care to read what I said Nigel, I have no interest in the minister's personal morality, nor anybody else's
I do care about sex being commodified by porn and privatised by the Tories
I hardly think quoting from a book that encourages stoning women to death for adultery a particularly apt authority on treatment of women, not to mention the casting out and blinding that occupies that particular source of wisdom.
"I don't know Keith's opinion, but I would think there must be 'degrees' in such matters."
Really!!
If one is sexual assault, what's the other?
As far as atrocities are concerned, Keith constantly defends atrocities he supports by pointing to others he doesn't
I'm sure Iains was trying to do something similar with his failed link.
It's all down to how you regard women in society and putting right what is wrong, I suppose
Doesn't seem to concern your lot overmuch where our 'betters' are concerned
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Raggytash
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 11:48 AM

Liberals eh?

Well for starters there's Paddy Pantsdown

And Norman Scott bites your pillow, or even vote Liberal or I'll shoot your dog.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 11:51 AM

Anyone else noticed the standard Tory tactic of 'Whataboutery'? The Praying Mantis does it every time she's challenged over the Tory governments abject failure on almost everything - she was at it again on PMQs today - and the feeble-minded, terminally-propagandised Tory shills on here do it too.

Still, it's easier than getting involved in sensible and intelligent discussion....


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Iains
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 12:52 PM

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Westminster_sexual_scandals

As I said in my opening post, "There are bad apples in every barrel."


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 01:25 PM

More whataboutism Iains
That the best you can manage?
Something we could all do had we a mind to
WHATABOUT?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 02:56 PM

There seems to be something disproportionately damaged in the male tory psyche,
that renders them more likely to be predators, behaving inappropriately with women,
even abusing younger men & boys..

How much would their traditional exclusive single sex all boys public boarding school system play a part in this...?????


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 03:15 PM

I think they do like it up 'em Mr Mainwaring

:D tG


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 03:34 PM

Defense against the whataboutism arts

but what about...

(Do not ignore but exclaim) "NO you are going to answer the question, You are not allowed to ask what about some other imaginary thing and change the subject.
You are going to answer, or you are going away.


if you do this, whataboutism will have had its day.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Dec 17 - 05:06 AM

If you devote a thread to discussion of one case among so many, it is reasonable to ask why.

This case has much less behind it than most.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Dec 17 - 05:25 AM

Now the suggestion is that he'll get away with this because he did it before he was a cabinet minister, therefore couldn't have been in breach of tne ministerial code. Ha bloody ha!

In fact, while Keith and the cabal would like us to think that this is just a fleeting knee-brush matter, in fact there's a fair bit more to it. Yesterday's Guardian had a piece entitled "MP inquiry: Fears Green may escape sanction" that makes interesting reading...


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Dec 17 - 05:42 AM

"it is reasonable to ask why."
Because this particular suspect is a member of an official body who are in a position to change the laws on a business that degrades women and puts them at risk to sexual attacks - he has been accused both of using pornography and harassment
If you are aware that his case is one "among many" why do you refuse to condemn the "many" and why do you attempt to brush off an accusation of sexual harassment as unimportant?
Rhetorical questions, of course - because they involve one of 'the great and the good' in a party you support
Your arguments have never been anything other than part of a political agenda, certainly nothing to do with justice.
You are happy to accuse two of his accusers as 'discredited' only on the word of your own flavour-of-the-month (one of the two hasn't been mentioned elsewhere as being unreliable)
Where is the justice in that?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Dec 17 - 05:53 AM

" interesting reading..."
INTERESTING INDEED
"Maltby has told the inquiry she believes Green appeared to solicit sex from her in exchange for political mentoring. She declined to comment yesterday, with the investigation into Green due to be released in the coming days.
In a piece for the Times, which prompted the inquiry, Maltby said she met Green in a London pub, where she said the MP offered to help her take steps towards becoming a Conservative candidate. She alleged that Green had touched her knee during the meeting, as he mentioned that his own wife was "very understanding".
Maltby described a conversation that she said touched on affairs of acquaintances, then she said she "felt a fleeting hand against my knee - so brief it was almost deniable".
The activist said she avoided Green after their encounter but,
in 2016, subsequently wrote a piece for the Times where she was pictured wearing a corset. Green then texted her, unprompted, she said, saying: "Long time no see. But having admired you in a corset in my favourite tabloid, I feel impelled to ask if you are free for a drink anytime?"
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Dec 17 - 05:58 AM

why do you refuse to condemn the "many" and why do you attempt to brush off an accusation of sexual harassment as unimportant?

I do neither.

Any accusation is important but there are many and worse all around that you show no interest or concern about.

This thread just seeks to make political capital out of one case with much less evidence than most.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Dec 17 - 06:16 AM

"but there are many and worse all around that "
More whataboutism again
I have made my position both on pornography and sex in general quite plain, it is all-encompassing and condemns outright the marketing and selling of sex, which is what pornogrphy is all about.
I have no problem with genuine erotic literature or films - my own song repertoire is full of the stuff - one of my all-time folk-heroes is Gershon Legman, the folklorist who specialised in sexual folklore
A it different from packaging and selling it like drugs.
That debases the sexual act and degrades those involved - I do not expect elected representatives to participate in that trade, yet it has been proved commonplace among them,
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Dec 17 - 02:46 PM

Jim, you are entitled to your views on porn and I do not distance myself from them, but it was legal porn viewed nine years ago and we can not prove who put it there, who watched it or even that it was really there.

These are very poor grounds to sack anyone.

The alleged harassment is of a very low order compared to all the other cases around just now, and much less then those Clive Lewis was accused of and cleared, though the lady has not withdrawn her accusation against him.

So, why does Green alone get a dedicated thread, with Steve and Jim actually making up false facts about it?
Asking that question is not "whataboutery."


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Raggytash
Date: 14 Dec 17 - 03:24 PM

I wonder again why Damian Green has not taken this further.

With his resources and the backing of his party he could readily afford to take the Police Officers to court for defamation at least.

Strange he hasn't followed this route.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Dec 17 - 04:42 PM

Green gets a dedicated thread because I started a dedicated thread about him, his case being topical. That's how we do things, Keith. Feel free to undedicate it by prattling on about what others may have done. But we will then feel free to accuse you of schoolyard whataboutery and treat you with the derision the approach deserves. If you have an issue with Clive Lewis, Ivan Lewis, anybody else called Lewis or even anybody not called Lewis, I could suggest that you start a new thread and see whether you can unyawn us enough to engage.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Dec 17 - 05:39 PM

CS Lewis? He was bit dodgy by all accounts. Magic kingdoms in wardrobes indeed...

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Dec 17 - 06:03 PM

Then there's Lewis Carroll, very dodgy (no relation, Jim!), wild man Jerry Lewis, Huey Lewis (he's news to me) and that ugly alpha-male bugger who pretended badly to be a yank, Damian Lewis. OMG, he's called "Damian!" He's doomed! Call in Damien the exorcist!


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 15 Dec 17 - 03:31 AM

From: Raggytash - PM
Date: 14 Dec 17 - 03:24 PM
I wonder again why Damian Green has not taken this further.
With his resources and the backing of his party he could readily afford to take the Police Officers to court for defamation at least.


Possibly he hasn't taken it forward because he would find it very hard to win the case, and it would give the ex cop a further chance to try to make his questionable comments. "Least said, soonest mended".


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Mr Red
Date: 15 Dec 17 - 04:10 AM

Are there other witnesses to the porn that have kept their counsel. But they would be scoring political currency and await payback.
And true, the first thing a lawyer would say to him is "how much can you afford to loose"? Forming an unbiased jury would be difficult too. All male? I don't think so.

The real reason he hasn't gone after them may be that he may be in court in a separate issue and the cost of both cases would weigh heavy. The time he would have to spend on both. His standing would drop further. And his friends would tell him he was a liability. He is, but moreso.

And it is not difficult to paint a scenario where the "officers" feel their career was blighted by saying anything at the time. If you were doing your diligent duty and were told you had exceeded your authority (in an attempt at hush-up) - well, put yourself in their shoes. Mind you, I would have listed a sample of URLs and counted the websites and kept the data!

The world and his brother are making a correlation between the porn and the harassment. It is what humans do, we evolved to see patterns, and it has served us well as a species.
By not going to court, the porn is at least unproven. And the other issue? Who's career is it blighting now? Apart from the Demon Green? Or maybe May?
Let's have a list, who's rushing to his defence?


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Dec 17 - 05:00 AM

I think that both the previous posts make good points. And there's no doubt that, for now at least, the furore has died down, which suits him down to the ground. I'm just thinking of the rage I'd feel if vexatious allegations completely without substance were made against me. I'm certain that I wouldn't be showing the "restraint" that he's showing. That in itself doesn't prove a thing. Unfortunately for him, we have only his word that the charges are without substance, and the current ethos is not in his favour. He's scared of mud sticking. But it's amazing how discredited politicians bounce back after a year or two. There are expenses cheats who are now in positions of power who were bloody lucky not to have been thrown in jail.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Dec 17 - 06:10 AM

The truth is that 'we' don't know what evidence exists (and that includes you, Professor Feeblemind) - just because it hasn't been put into the public domain doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. And 'we' don't know what pressure has been brought to bear on the officers at the time, and since, to keep the sordid business quiet.

You see, Prof., although your feeble mind appears incapable of understanding it, the lack of published evidence is no proof that there exists no evidence at all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 15 Dec 17 - 06:17 AM

From: Backwoodsman - PM
Date: 15 Dec 17 - 06:10 AM
The truth is that 'we' don't know what evidence exists (and that includes you, Professor Feeblemind) - just because it hasn't been put into the public domain doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. And 'we' don't know what pressure has been brought to bear on the officers at the time, and since, to keep the sordid business quiet.
You see, Prof., although your feeble mind appears incapable of understanding it, the lack of published evidence is no proof that there exists no evidence at all.


Perfectly true. But the lack of published evidence is no proof that evidence exists either.
Nor does it show that the officers were put under any pressure at all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Dec 17 - 06:23 AM

"but it was legal porn"
Maade legal by an establishment who revels in it..... now there's a coincidence
"These are very poor grounds to sack anyone."
I have never suggested that he should be sacked - I just think the electorate should be aware of the low-life we are electing into office
You are happy to condemn police as being untrustworthy on the word of a suspected sex pest, yet you throw your toys out of the pram in his defence when he is serially accused of being a sex predator
No need to ask which side of the scales of justice you sit on - the great and the good every time
"because he would find it very hard to win the case"
You mean like all those raped women who are waterboarded by expensive lawyers every time they bring a case to court - not to mention the vast majority who nevr do for the same reason?
"(no relation, Jim!), "
You mean he's not really me great grand-dad?
Damn - must call off my legal team and tell them not to bother with the claims to the Dodgson estate!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Raggytash
Date: 15 Dec 17 - 06:35 AM

"Possibly he hasn't taken it forward because he would find it very hard to win the case"

An allegation has been made against Damien Green. In order for him to lose the case the accuser would have to submit concrete evidence that Green had watched porn on his work computer. If the accuser cannot do that Green would win his case.

The end of the matter and we can all discuss something else.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Dec 17 - 06:41 AM

Lewis Carroll, very dodgy

Dodgson rather than dodgy, surely

:D tG


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Dec 17 - 07:03 AM

"Perfectly true. But the lack of published evidence is no proof that evidence exists either.
Nor does it show that the officers were put under any pressure at all."


Thank you for confirming my point, Nigel, which of course was that there are no publicly-known absolutes in this case, just reported ifs, buts, and maybes. This is what I was trying to demonstrate to our esteeemed and revered (not) Professor, who makes bald statements in absolute terms, despite the fact that 'we' are not in possession of all the evidence', in order to 'win' (which, of course, he doesn't, he just makes himself look sillier).


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 15 Dec 17 - 07:21 AM

From: Raggytash - PM
Date: 15 Dec 17 - 06:35 AM
"Possibly he hasn't taken it forward because he would find it very hard to win the case"
An allegation has been made against Damien Green. In order for him to lose the case the accuser would have to submit concrete evidence that Green had watched porn on his work computer. If the accuser cannot do that Green would win his case.
The end of the matter and we can all discuss something else.


In order to be defamation, the claim needs to cause the regard in which the subject is held by others to be lowered. This claim would only succeed if it can be shown that the public (or the jury) believe that someone who views legal porn (if indeed he did) on a works computer is held in lower regard than a politician.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Dec 17 - 07:52 AM

JUDGES VIEWING PORN - all high-up members of the British Establishment adjudicting on whether other high-up members of the British Establishment are guity of something they are apparentply all at.
All very confusing from a layman's point of view!!
Well, not really, in a world where laws are made by the privileged, for the privileged.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Dec 17 - 07:59 AM

Can we please stop saying "legal" porn? The issue is not whether what he was allegedly viewing was legal or not (and as establishment doubt has even been cast on the very existence of the material, who's deciding whether it was legal or not? In agreeing that the porn was legal, you are actually saying that the cop was telling the truth about its existence. Surely if yer cop was peddling totally made-up shit against Green for dark motives he wouldn't have stopped at the halfway house of conceding that it was "legal" - that isn't how you go for the jugular!). The issue is that he was allegedly using porn on his work computer, presumably in work time. At the very least that is cheating his employers. And in many occupations, that is a sacking offence. There's no way I'd have survived as a teacher had porn been found on my school laptop in school.   

We still don't know all the facts. The whistleblowin' cop stated that it was inconceivable that Green had not accessed the porn on the computer. We still don't know his evidence for that assertion.

There's not a lot going on with regard to this saga at present. I suspect that that's exactly how Green wants to keep it. And it's perfectly fair to wonder why that's so.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Iains
Date: 15 Dec 17 - 08:05 AM

There are several points to be borne in mind concerning any court case:
1) The legality of the initial search of Green's parliamentary office has not been tested in the courts.
(I suspect there is no wish to explore this fact by legal means and that measures are now in place to prevent a repetition)
2)Evidence obtained illegally may be ruled inadmissible by the court.
3)Potentially the police action could be regarded as gross and deliberate police misconduct.
4)The behaviour of Former Metropolitan Police Commissioner Sir Paul Stephenson is totally inexplicable unless he is deliberately interfering in politics. He is commenting on events 9 years ago that lead to no charges. At the least he is guilty of being in breach of enduring confidentiality. For this I would take away his pension on account of gross misbehaviour.
5)The initial whistle blower and his backup blabber are both guilty of the same offence and also one of them guilty of keeping records illegally.
The police may like the idea of turning themselves into paramilitary bully boys but they are subject to the same rules as the rest of us.
I view this affair as the police playing politics. For this reason, if no other, they need to be subject to court action. We supposedly live in a democracy, not a police state. The boundaries of acceptable police behaviour require to be crystal clear. That is far from the case at the moment.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Dec 17 - 08:27 AM

Bwm,
The truth is that 'we' don't know what evidence exists (and that includes you, Professor Feeblemind) - just because it hasn't been put into the public domain doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.


Why do you people all assume it does exist, some of you even making some up?

You see, Prof., although your feeble mind appears incapable of understanding it, the lack of published evidence is no proof that there exists no evidence at all.

That works both ways. I assume nothing. You people assume things you have no evidence for.

If I am so feebleminded, identify one thing I have said that could be so described.
You people always resort to baseless personal attack when you can not make a case.

Rag,
An allegation has been made against Damien Green. In order for him to lose the case the accuser would have to submit concrete evidence that Green had watched porn on his work computer. If the accuser cannot do that Green would win his case.

The person bringing the case has to provide the proof.
No-one can prove they did not watch porn nine years ago.

Quick has been quoted as considering bringing action against Green.
Unless he can prove what he says, he will not.

Steve,
There's no way I'd have survived as a teacher had porn been found on my school laptop in school.   

You would if it was only claimed to have been found, nine years later, with no evidence.

Green gets a dedicated thread because I started a dedicated thread about him, his case being topical.

There were numerous similar and stronger topical cases, but only Green got a thread.
This is just a politically motivated witch hunt.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Dec 17 - 08:36 AM

How do you know he's guilty of keeping records illegally? A constant insinuation in all this is that the porn didn't even exist at all. He can't be guilty of illegally keeping records if there were no records to keep. He could be guilty of lying, but, as far as I know, he hasn't made his allegations under oath. He can only be legally adjudicated to have lied if Green sues him. In any case, if he did glean some proof that he decided to hang on to that the porn existed, how is that illegal?   Murky waters, innit? Green is known to have been the serial recipient of leaked documents damaging to Labour, which kicked all this off in the first place. His lackey supplier was sacked. Is leaking illegal? How is that any better than a cop noting Green's pornography supply? Is it OK when a politician leaks embarrassing stuff but not OK if a cop does it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Dec 17 - 08:46 AM

To sum up your stance in this thread, Keith: "You people have no evidence that the porn existed and it wasn't illegal anyway."

Can you even get your own head round that, Keith?


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Iains
Date: 15 Dec 17 - 08:50 AM

"Is it OK when a politician leaks embarrassing stuff but not OK if a cop does it?"

YES!!!!!


The police cannot be allowed to play politics.

The executive, legislative and judicial need to maintain total separation in order for democracy to work.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Dec 17 - 08:57 AM

How do you know he's guilty of keeping records illegally?

If he kept the records himself that was illegal.
If he has just written them, I am not sure what the misdemeanour would be called.

He can't be guilty of illegally keeping records if there were no records to keep.

The records he has produced are only hand written ones, written by him!

He can only be legally adjudicated to have lied if Green sues him.

Legally I suppose yes, but if it is a lie he would still be a liar.

In any case, if he did glean some proof that he decided to hang on to that the porn existed, how is that illegal?

Because it is illegal for police to do that.

Is leaking illegal?

It can be. Leakers have been aquitted because they acted in the public interest.
Receiving leaks is not at all illegal.

How is that any better than a cop noting Green's pornography supply?

That is a value judgement, but it is still illegal for an officer to do that. There is no supporting evidence that the porn existed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Dec 17 - 09:01 AM

Separation isn't the point. Was it OK for Green to receive leaked documents to his political advantage and say nothing, but not OK for the copper to leak his information? Is one more in the public interest than the other? Personally, I regard both as improper behaviour and sod all to do with democracy. But if that policeman, properly or improperly, has exposed a sex pest, wouldn't that be mitigation? Questions, questions!


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Dec 17 - 09:04 AM

Quote me the law that the policeman broke, Keith.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Dec 17 - 09:12 AM

I am not a lawyer Steve, but I read that a prosecution was being considered for the ex-cops.

Was it OK for Green to receive leaked documents

It is not illegal.

but not OK for the copper to leak his information?

That is illegal.

But if that policeman, properly or improperly, has exposed a sex pest, wouldn't that be mitigation?

He has not exposed a sex pest. If he is telling the truth he has exposed someone doing something perfectly legal that almost everyone has done, so no mitigation.

Questions, questions!

Yes, and no evidence so why are you still banging on about nothing?
It is just a politically motivated witch hunt.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Dec 17 - 09:34 AM

If you think it's illegal you must think he's broken a law. Which law? If you think that the porn was not illegal, you must be agreeing with the policeman. He's the only person who's said that the porn was legal. You are being somewhat selective sbout the information you accept and reject. As for leaks, the release of information not intended for release, isn't that precisely what the policeman has done? Isn't this argument about what's in the public interest? The policeman released his information, nine years kept private, four days after the sex-pest allegations against Green came out. Do you think the copper would have been right not to disclose at that point what he knew (and which we, as yet, don't know the details of)? Questions, questions!


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Dec 17 - 09:34 AM

"I view this affair as the police playing politics"

What.. unlike the traditional tory presumption that the police are the playthings of tory politicians...???

"The police may like the idea of turning themselves into paramilitary bully boys"

What.. unlike their traditional role as the 'paramilitary bully boys' of tory governments...???


errrmmm.. [cough]... miners strike... anti poll tax marches.. etc.. etc...


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Dec 17 - 11:15 AM

If you think it's illegal you must think he's broken a law. Which law?

How would I know, but I read that the police are considering a prosecution.

If you think that the porn was not illegal, you must be agreeing with the policeman.

No.

He's the only person who's said that the porn was legal.

He is also the only person claiming it existed at all.
There is no-one anywhere claiming it was not legal!

Do you think the copper would have been right not to disclose at that point what he knew (and which we, as yet, don't know the details of)? Questions, questions!

No question. It was wrong. The police chief states that.

Looking at legal porn is something almost everyone has done so it is not relevant to the other allegation at all.
It is not evidence of any kind of criminality.

You are still banging on about nothing.
Just a politically motivated witch hunt.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Dec 17 - 11:37 AM

Does the average bloke [or blokette] with an internet connection even know what 'legal porn' for UK citizens is
in this era of slightly less draconian censorship and obscenity legislation...???

Yes.. we all know what the most 'highly illegal' is.. and damn right it should be..

But it's those tricky grey areas of hesitation and uncertainty.....?????

Then there's that sanitized middle class middle-brow 'sensual erotica':
and weird studenty arty farty nudey stuff in Art Gallery Exhibitions...?????


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Iains
Date: 15 Dec 17 - 12:29 PM

"Do you think the copper would have been right not to disclose at that point what he knew (and which we, as yet, don't know the details of)? Questions, questions!"

No question about it. If dodgy copper substantiates his allegations with any kind of evidence he is in clear breach of the data protection act. He is also in breach of his own code of conduct that extends into retirement.
The police and security services need to keep out of politics.Not only because of this thread, but also:

https://undercoverinfo.wordpress.com/2015/09/13/corbyn-upgraded-to-national-security-risk-first-step-of-a-very-british-coup/


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Dec 17 - 01:05 PM

Pfr, if those cops had found porn, I am sure they would have acted if it was illegal, and they would know.

Thus even if lying that it existed they could not claim it was illegal or they would have to explain their lack of action.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Dec 17 - 01:33 PM

"if those cops had found porn, I am sure they would have acted if it was illegal, and they would know.

Thus even if lying that it existed they could not claim it was illegal or they would have to explain their lack of action.
"

It's nice to hope our police act independently of Establishment / Tory Govt control and interference...
But.. who knows what [conspiracy theorists alert...!!!!!!!] 'pressures' from 'sideways and / or above'
might have influenced higher ranking police officials to put a stop to these whistleblowers acting 9 years ago...???


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Dec 17 - 02:57 PM

So what part of the Data Protection Act relates to someone accidentally viewing porn on someone else's computer? Suppose I'm a head of department or the headteacher in a secondary school and I accidentally find porn on a probationary teacher's computer. Am I in breach of the Data Protection Act if I tell anyone about it? I don't think so. I don't think that's the kind of "data" the Act is supposed to cover. And what about all those leaks? Green was in receipt of documents leaked by some mole in the Brown administration. He didn't exactly blow the whistle on the Labour provider, did he? I imagine he found the leaked documents very useful. Was that covered by the Data Protection Act? There's an awful lot of leaking going on and not an awful lot of prosecutions...


"He is also the only person claiming it existed at all.
There is no-one anywhere claiming it was not legal!"

This is what you said on 3 December, Keith, your whole post:

Date: 03 Dec 17 - 06:16 AM

"The ex officers did not report it at the time.
Even they admit they had no proof it was Green anyway.
It was not illegal anyway.
No crime was committed.
It was ten years ago."

Sounds to me like you admit that the porn existed, if nowt else. If not, well what was it that was not illegal, Keith?


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Iains
Date: 15 Dec 17 - 04:15 PM

"So what part of the Data Protection Act relates to someone accidentally viewing porn on someone else's computer?"

Simply a nine year lapse. Also your argument is facile. There was nothing accidental about scanning the alleged computer. If there was a case to answer it would have come to court many years ago. To hold evidence for nine years(assuming he can corroborate his allegations)is clearly a breach of the data protection act.
As has been stated elsewhere had a legitimate request been made about data held by the police concerning these allegations, the response would have been erroneous due to the actions of renegade police officers. If the act is to have any teeth at all it demands these officers be punished. There is not a lot of value in having a data protection act if anyone with a grudge can walk away and sit on data dubiously obtained in order to use it to settle a grudge many years later. Should the grubby, politically motivated, attempted character assassination by a disgraced, failed police officer be rewarded in any way? I think not.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Dec 17 - 05:26 PM

Iains - staying glued to the authorized tory office damage limitation script as if his very existence depended on it...


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Dec 17 - 06:29 PM

Was the computer scanned then? So what's all this argument about whether the porn actually existed...?

The policeman was of the opinion that the porn was legal, so your "no case to answer" point falls as that was the position all along, and the policeman knew it. The possession of legal porn was never going to be a court matter so I don't see your point. As for holding "evidence" for nine years, I don't see that nine seconds, nine months, nine years or ninety years has any bearing on the legality or not of having that evidence. And do we know in what form the cop has been holding the evidence? Screenshot? Memory stick? Recollection? As far as I know, we haven't been told. And you haven't yet told us what bit of the Data Protection Act has been breached. The police seize private computers looking for evidence all the time. Someone had better tell 'em about that act...


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Iains
Date: 17 Dec 17 - 04:09 AM

Shaw you are getting very boring.
There are multiple issues at stake over this affair. You deliberately ignore them to pursue a witch hunt.

The fact the police bullied their way into Parliament to search an mp's office does nor appear to concern you.
You overlook the fact that shortly after the event the speaker emphasised that a search warrant is required to ransack offices in Parliament.
When arresting an MP the police are required to write to inform the speaker.
Why did this take 5 days.

For someone continually banging on about the great EU democracy, your being totally oblivious to the implications of the affair, and how it impacts British Democracy astounds me.
It seems clear it is not democracy you are concerned with but scoring cheap political shots.
What a hypocritical fellow you are.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Dec 17 - 04:38 AM

"Shaw you are getting very boring."
As is your constant and somewhat pathetic attempt to talk down to people
"The fact the police bullied their way into Parliament to search an mp's office does nor appear to concern you."
That is part of their job description when they suspect offences are being committed - they do it all the time to the rest of us when they see it necessary - why should elected representatives be any different?
Interesting that the argument has shifted from "he didn't do it" to "he probably did but it was legal"
None of you have attempted to address to negative effects porn has on the lives on half of the human race
As long as it's legal, it's ok if our lawmakers and tax-spend do it.
Sheesh - what a lumpen attitude to humanity in general
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Dec 17 - 04:39 AM

Sounds to me like you admit that the porn existed, if nowt else. If not, well what was it that was not illegal, Keith?

Unlike you I make no assumptions about this.
This is all about unsubstantiated claims, 9 years late, from the ex-cops.

If you believe them, the porn was not illegal.
If you do not believe them, the porn never even existed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Dec 17 - 04:42 AM

400!
And do we know in what form the cop has been holding the evidence?

yes. Just a handwritten note written by himself who knows when. No hard evidence at all


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Dec 17 - 05:31 AM

"Bullied their way," "ransack offices," "witch hunt..." Gosh, the hyperbole count is rising!

Handwritten note, eh, Keith? Do you you know what was in that note? Could've been details of websites visited, even payments made, stuff that could be corroborated, who knows? I don't, and neither do you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Raggytash
Date: 17 Dec 17 - 05:46 AM

The thing is Steve we do not know what evidence has been retained. If the police officer was thorough he will have carefully filed and retained any incriminating evidence.

Still wonder why Damien Green hasn't said anything about taking the allegation to court.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Dec 17 - 05:51 AM

"If you believe them, the porn was not illegal."
"A CASE OF THIS< I THINK
Still no comment on the damage done from the pro-porn lobby
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Dec 17 - 06:10 AM

Just a politically motivated witch hunt.

Somewhat like starting threads about any whiff of any wrongdoing in the Labour Party you mean?

It seems clear it is not democracy you are concerned with but scoring cheap political shots.
What a hypocritical fellow you are.



It seems clear that you are not interested in anything at all but scoring cheap political shots. What a hypocritical fellow you are.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Dec 17 - 06:30 AM

"Somewhat like starting threads about any whiff of any wrongdoing in the Labour Party you mean?"
Ah, but that's only labour Dave - well worth the dozen or so witch-hunts Keith has embarked on - and that's only on this form
God knows how many he gets uop to in his clerical hat -yes, he does claim to be a CHRISTIAN, believe it or not
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Iains
Date: 17 Dec 17 - 06:32 AM

Jimmie as you have transplanted yourself to a bog you have no concept as to what is at stake. Your constant drivelling is wearing as is your pathetic attempts to bully all who argue with you.

Try to bear in mind the police are subject to the same rules as the rest of us. The legality of the search of the commons has not been tested in the courts, though instructions issued by the speaker subsequent to this fiasco, indicate a warrant should have been obtained. As a result the admissability of whatever may have been obtained is questionable.

You and many others (of your fellow rats)seem totally unable to appreciate this.

Just imagine the outcry should the tories have instigated a search of
comrade corbyn's parliamentary office.

and by the way jimmy if I am a mental midget and constantly talk down to you, I can only assume you are retarded. After all what ranks lower than a mental midget?


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Raggytash
Date: 17 Dec 17 - 06:59 AM

"Just imagine the outcry should the tories have instigated a search of comrade corbyn's parliamentary office"

I doubt if they would find stolen files and porn on the computer.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Dec 17 - 07:12 AM

"Jimmie as you have transplanted yourself to a bog you have no concept as to what is at stake"
Just the racict and personally abusive response I expected
Pity the BNP took a noesdive and Ukip is on the rocks,
Never mind - there's always Bori and Res Mogg as a stopgap until another fuhrer rises from the ashes
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Dec 17 - 07:46 AM

Incidentally,
When and if Corbyn and the Labour Party are found to be denegrating women by their widespread use and justification of porn, they will get the same condemnation of it as has your boyo
So far, porn to this extent seems largely the domain of the privileged right (a few exceptions, no doubt)
The same of course, with paedophelia - definitely the playground of the boys at the top
You mob make a neat litle porno for the privilege team here; I have little doubt that you'd happily include the exponents of child abuse in your defence campaign, should the necessity aries
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Dec 17 - 08:10 AM

"constantly talk down to you,"
Attempts are no indication of the end result
Mindless thugs always try to sout down those they are incapable of matching otherwise - you must have learned that by now
Jim Caarroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Iains
Date: 17 Dec 17 - 09:49 AM

"Mindless thugs always try to sout down those they are incapable of matching otherwise "

A perfect description of yourself jimmy.

" I have little doubt that you'd happily include the exponents of child abuse in your defence campaign, should the necessity aries"

You really are a piece of lowlife scum jimmy! I can see why living in a bog appeals to you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Iains
Date: 17 Dec 17 - 09:53 AM

These are actual convictions. Recognise the difference jimmy?

https://labour25.com/


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Dec 17 - 12:19 PM

Steve,
Handwritten note, eh, Keith? Do you you know what was in that note? Could've been details of websites visited, even payments made, stuff that could be corroborated, who knows? I don't, and neither do you.

Yes I do. He has produced it in news interviews. There is no detail at all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Dec 17 - 12:25 PM

See the note here.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42151148


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Dec 17 - 12:45 PM

Made a saart of this list

Derrick Hemingsley - no trace of trial or conviction
The Labour Party suspended Neil Taggart in October 2016 when it became aware of the allegations he was facing
Moray Labour councillor Sean Morton Untraceable
Labour councillor Tom Neilson, Likewise
Labour Party city councillor Steven Bayes   likewise
David Fagan thrown out of Party
Tom O'Carroll likewise
Tom Watson's paedophile uncle should have chosen his relatives more carefully ? give us a ******* break!
Terry Brooke Not charged
Simon Carter Kicked out of the party
Peter Prendeville - no trace other than on this site
Andrew Palmer likewise
Pete Townsend was involved in politics half a century ago

Got this far and I realsised where all this was coming from
Jewish Labour Paedophile councillor and Head teacher Malcolm Ford
This "information" is drawn from a fascist, anti-Semitic site - you may wish to give credence to shite like this, but as far as I?m concerned, you are on your own
What did I just say about the BNP, Ukip and the rest?
You really are a little goose-stepper, aren't you?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Dec 17 - 01:28 PM

Further information from your totally untraceable blogger]Iains

Born in Poland, Jewish physician Magnus Hirschfeld manufactured the perverted pseudo-science known as ?sexology?. He and his followers became famous for promoting various social ills to undermine European society, such as Pederasty (homosexual paedophilia) homosexuality, radical feminism and abortion.

Lord Longford (Marxist Labour peer and uncle to Marxist and known Zionist Labour party Shadow Secretary of State and Shadow Deputy Prime Minister

Harriet Harman) - Was obsessed with paedophile child killer Myra Hindley
Harriet Harman (Known Zionist) campaigned tirelessly to get the age of consent abolished.


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Dec 17 - 08:15 PM

Iains still hasn't responded to the clear implication that he's a porn apologist and porn user. He seems to think that we're all at it, a presumption that would give him comfort, undoubtedly. How unfortunate that he's found that so many of us are outraged and disgusted by that which he appears to find so normal and so, er, satisfying. And PLEASE don't make me quote that infamous sentence of yours again, Iains...


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Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Dec 17 - 09:57 PM

Let's keep it in perspective chaps..

good socialist and liberal folks can also enjoy viewing nudey pictures...

It's too simplistic to assert all 'porn' is bad, therefore all folks who view it are tory rotters...

..and while a tory minister is having a long recreational wank, that's less time he/she is screwing the nation...


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