BS: Damian Green

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Dec 17 - 05:43 AM

It really is time we moved on from this idiocy - this has never been about the individual use of porn
Here it is about how elected public figures use work computers to access it; whether Green is one of those is, in the long run, immaterial - the figures of how many do are undeniable, though I have little doubt that Keith and his ilk would defend to the last every individual Tory who had done so and leap with both feet on every Labour member who has (as his running-mate Iians already has).
Arguments like this as far as they are concerned are political gesturings and have little to do with the subject under discussion   
These discussions should include the wider implications of the use of porn.
Today, the Irish Times has announced that one fifth of women doctors have been sexulally harrassed and/or bullied
There are no figures for the UK, bu it would be surprising if it wasn't similar.
We no what has happened in the Film and media industries, we know the appalling statistic of unreported rapes and the even more appalling ordeals women are put through when they dare accuse their predators.
Women are still very much second class citizens in these matters and treating them as commercial sex objects, as the porn industry does, it one of the major reasons why women are deprived of full citizenship.
I have always enjoyed sex - not as salacious voyeuristic titillation, but as a natural act of human expression.
Commercialising and marketing it it debases it and it debases the victims of it.
Let Keith defend his Tory role models till his eyeballs pop out but for crying out loud, leave him and his to wallow in their own swill.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Dec 17 - 05:35 AM

dave,
Every post you have made here has been against Green." then?
You made that up. Simple as that.

I made nothing up. All your posts did show you to be against Green, and I was right wasn't I Dave?

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Dec 17 - 04:40 AM

Still no evidence of "Every post you have made here has been against Green." then?

You made that up. Simple as that.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Dec 17 - 04:35 AM

errmmm... who is going to look even sillier when Green 'resigns to spend more time with his family...???


..of course with 'the full support' of the Prime Minister....

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Dec 17 - 04:26 AM

Dave,
You stated quite categorically that "Every post of yours puts you firmly on the anti-Green side"

Yes, and you can not deny that I was right about that.

but could not provide any evidence of that.

You made two posts that accepted Green's use of porn which he denies.
You made many posts sniping at those putting Green's case, but never criticised anything from your side, not even blatant lying.

I inferred correctly that you do not support Green.
If that is wrong, say so.

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Dec 17 - 04:16 AM

Steve,
The questions being asked of Green are whether he knew that the porn was there,

He has answered that unequivocally. He says he did not.
That makes all your other questions pointless.

If the ex-cops are prosecuted he will not need to take any action.
I believe that if you bring a case for defamation the onus is on you to prove you are innocent. That would be impossible for him to do even if he is completely blameless.

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Dec 17 - 04:13 AM

"
Jim, if there was no porn MI5 could not have been aware of it."
If there was, they covered it up
Of course we all realuise that MI5 have a record for truth and openness, so we have to believe them, don't we?
Do not accuse me of lying - you are the only one of this forum who lies constantly - habitually even
Reckon you missed your calling when you didn't join MI5
!I am sure that no-one here is in any doubt"
Your megalomania is showing again -- stop speaking for other people
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Dec 17 - 04:13 AM

Different morality
Different language
Different planet

Not surprisingly everyone can see it but you, Keith.

You stated quite categorically that "Every post of yours puts you firmly on the anti-Green side" but could not provide any evidence of that. That is all we need to know.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Dec 17 - 04:06 AM

Steve,
It's no use trying to pretend that the porn wasn't there, Keith.

I am not. I merely point out that he denies it and the only evidence is an unsubstantiated claim by an ex-cop with reason to bear a grudge.

Jim, if there was no porn MI5 could not have been aware of it.
There is nothing anywhere to suggest that MI5 knew anything about any porn. You made that up Jim.

Dave, I did not make anything up.
It was the absolute truth that I inferred from your posts that you are not on Green's side.
If I was wrong you would be crowing about it.

I am sure that no-one here is in any doubt that as usual you agree with Steve, Jim and PFR, making me right all along.

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Dec 17 - 05:24 PM

Green hasn't committed a criminal offence by downloading and using pornography. He probably hasn't committed a criminal offence by touching a young woman's knee. It does seem to me that the policeman in question saw the second allegation, had in his possession information that he probably wasn't entitled to make public, but saw Green trying to call others liars for dissing him when it was clear to the policeman that the chap is quite possibly anything other than squeaky clean. It's no use trying to pretend that the porn wasn't there, Keith. The questions being asked of Green are whether he knew that the porn was there, whether he knew who downloaded it, if it wasn't him then what did he do to find out who did do it, and whether he used that porn in work time. I'll add one more question to those: why isn't he suing the policeman for defamation?

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Dec 17 - 02:43 PM

"Decent people call it lying."
And decent people call what you are doing Tuchas kising
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Dec 17 - 02:20 PM

"You have just made that up Jim."
You do this every time Keith
M15 were present during the raid
Can't be arsed digging it up again for a moron like you, but this is a reference to national security being involved
The earlier reference was from The Telegraph
Green made maximum use of the documents to secure damaging headlines in the Daily Mail, Sunday Telegraph and other papers. The sustained and high-profile campaign went far beyond the normal trade in leaks between whistleblowing civil servants and opposition MPs – with claims that some of the leaks involved national security.
The Cabinet Office called in Scotland Yard to investigate. Quick, an assistant commissioner who as head of the SO15 unit covered politically sensitive specialist operations, was instructed to take on the job.

Why do I waste my time with a moron who has no sense of self respect and seems happy to humiliate himself over and over
Coz I enjoy it - that's why
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Dec 17 - 02:06 PM

So, Keith, when you make a false claim it is just you stating your opinion. If you believe someone else has made a false claim, it is a lie.

Different morality
Different language
Different planet

Strikes again.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Dec 17 - 01:43 PM

It has been covered up for nine years

No it was not.
The cop never reported it for nine years. Until he did there was nothing to cover up.

In the case of Green, MI5 were aware of the porn

You have just made that up Jim.
You people are really desperate. If there is no evidence just make some up, as your mentors did in the show trials.
Decent people call it lying.

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Dec 17 - 12:28 PM

Incidentally; Quick was "discredited for a misdemeanour

"Mr Quick resigned his post with the Metropolitan Police in 2009 after he was photographed entering Downing Street carrying a secret briefing note on which details of the undercover operation could be seen."

This misdemeanour has now been raised as part of the cover-up.

The Irish Government nearly collapsed last week after a similar affair
An honest police whistleblower reported a mass practice by the police of faking the number of breathalyzer tests - when he made his complaint, the authorities colluded with the heads of the police force to smear the whistleblower - this reached to the top echelons of Government
Last week the deputy Prime Minister was forced to resign because of her part in the cover up
This is what these people do
In the case of Green, MI5 were aware of the porn
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Dec 17 - 12:17 PM

"It is currently being investigated. There is no cover up."
It has been covered up for nine years
Stop defending Parliamentary hypocrisy Keith
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Dec 17 - 12:02 PM

But the police have nothing to prove his guilt.

It is not a police matter. No crime is alleged.
The police are considering taking action against the ex-cops.

Jim,
Then it doesn't concern you that the discovery of porn on the computer wasn't investigated at the time, which is an indication that it existed?

There is no evidence that it existed, apart from the allegations ten years later. If it did exist it was not a police matter because there was no criminal activity and it would have had no bearing on the investigation.

People seem to be overlooking this accusation by a Tory activist

It is currently being investigated. There is no cover up.

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Dec 17 - 11:00 AM

"I'm more concerned by the suspension of the 'presumption of innocence'. Green has denied the claims."
Then it doesn't concern you that the discovery of porn on the computer wasn't investigated at the time, which is an indication that it existed?
This seems to be an example of the establishment closing ranks (and their apologists rallying around them for thee same purpose)
People seem to be overlooking this accusation by a Tory activist

"Damian Green is Theresa Mays right-hand man in the Cabinet. He was accused of making flirtatious passes at a young Tory activist and touching her leg - accusations he denied"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Dec 17 - 10:44 AM

This is why the 'presumption of innocence' is so important, and you can't just decide to suspend it for those you don't agree with. It must apply to all, equally.

Agreed but this is a legal concept and even if he viewed pornography there is no crime. This is a moral issue to which no such failsafe applies. If you believe it should then you need to apply it to the gutter press who use smear and innuendo to discredit anyone they dislike and those who seem to believe and repeat every word they say. Particularly about left wing politicians.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 07 Dec 17 - 10:38 AM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 07 Dec 17 - 09:26 AM
I'm just concerned that the second-in-command of this country demonstrates to us that he's a decent and honourable man. The policeman is on record as saying that it is inconceivable that Green didn't see the porn. He will have his reasons for making that assertion and Green has done nothing to counteract it. As yet we are not privy to that information.

I'm more concerned by the suspension of the 'presumption of innocence'. Green has denied the claims.
However, for most circumstances it is almost impossible to prove a negative. Showing us his current computer cannot prove his innocence.
But the police have nothing to prove his guilt.

This is why the 'presumption of innocence' is so important, and you can't just decide to suspend it for those you don't agree with. It must apply to all, equally.

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Dec 17 - 10:15 AM

Dave,
25 posts without actually doing anything useful at all.
What are you like Keith?

I have said what I think Dave, and so has everyone else except you.
What is your problem?

Steve,
and Green has done nothing to counteract it

What can he do but deny it?
What would you have him do?

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Dec 17 - 09:26 AM

I'm just concerned that the second-in-command of this country demonstrates to us that he's a decent and honourable man. The policeman is on record as saying that it is inconceivable that Green didn't see the porn. He will have his reasons for making that assertion and Green has done nothing to counteract it. As yet we are not privy to that information. Good post, by the way, pfr. I do all that as well. I even take photos of any car at Morrison's which is parked too close to mine...

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Dec 17 - 08:56 AM

Defending tories is definitely a sick campaign;
but let's not condemn all 'porn and porn users' by such diabolical associations..
Also, seems folks are more concerned with Green's internet mucky pictures,
than his alleged real world inappropriate predatory sexual advances
and abuse of high power over subordinates...???

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Dec 17 - 08:27 AM

"Not just me. I am sure everyone is now intrigued to know your views on the thread subject."
Then why isn't everybody moronically demanding an answer (which you have already had)?
"We do not do Stalinist show trials here yet."
You appear to be rehearsing for them with your relentless interrogations of other members
You are doing exactly the same thing on the Brexit thread - maybe it's time to TRY ONE OF THESE
I repeat what I said earlier - it is a sign of megalomania to make statements on behalf of others without consulting them
You just go on defending Parliamentary porn and leave everybody else out of your sick campaign
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Dec 17 - 07:44 AM

I am sure everyone is now intrigued to know your views on the thread subject.

I am equally sure they could not give a shit about my opinion. Can you not just accept that you have won? You have worn us down with your incessant mental gymnastics. Well done.

25 posts without actually doing anything useful at all.
What are you like Keith?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Dec 17 - 07:33 AM

I'd hazard an educated guess that an ex senior cop would have kept some kind of informal personal record of evidence,
if only to cover himself if necessary at some indeterminate point in the future...

Even I use my phone cam to record just about every document I sign, or paperwork I need a quick reference of,
including photosnaps of on screen emails and suchlike.....

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Dec 17 - 07:21 AM

Dave,
None of your business.

Not just me. I am sure everyone is now intrigued to know your views on the thread subject.
Everyone else has expressed theirs, but dear little Dave is much too coy.
19 posts to the thread without actually expressing an opinion!
What are you like Dave?

Steve,
The claims that he used, if not also downloaded, porn on his work computer are not unsubstantiated. It was his computer. The porn was on it. That is substance

It is unsubstantiated that there was any porn at all.
If there was, it is unsubstantiated how it got there.
No substance whatsoever.

If I found porn on my computer I'd be racking my brain as to who...

He did not find it. The policeman claimed to have found it, but ten years too late for anyone to check.

But he's apparently just sat on this for nine years

No. The policeman did. You are back to making shit up again!

He needs to tell us how he investigated and dealt with the miscreant, if that's what he did.

He had no way of knowing there even was one, if indeed there was.
It is all entirely unsubstantiated by any scrap of hard evidence.

We do not do Stalinist show trials here yet.

He now has another sex allegation pending

No another. Just the one, and that is being properly and fully investigated.

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Dec 17 - 06:27 AM

Life at work was so much simpler and easier in the much more innocent pre-internet ages..

You'd just have nudey calendars and pinups stuck on the office walls, and find communal mucky photo mags generously left in the gents bogs....

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Dec 17 - 05:27 AM

The claims that he used, if not also downloaded, porn on his work computer are not unsubstantiated. It was his computer. The porn was on it. That is substance. Not proof, though in my opinion he has a bit more explaining to do than simply denying everything. If I found porn on my computer I'd be racking my brain as to who could have known my password, etc., or finding out what was up with my firewall, and, once I'd found out, I'd take them to the cleaners. But he's apparently just sat on this for nine years. He needs to tell us how he investigated and dealt with the miscreant, if that's what he did. As I've repeatedly said, this issue is now public and whether that's legitimate or not is water under the bridge. He now has another sex allegation pending. He's not just another ordinary employee doing naughty-naughty at work during slack periods. He's second-in-charge of the country. His integrity is in question and denying everything simply doesn't cut it. Anyway, it's gone quiet on this for a day or two. I suppose he's hoping it'll go away. I think he could be mistaken.

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Dec 17 - 05:21 AM

None of your business.

End of story.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Dec 17 - 05:20 AM

Dave, this thread is about the case of Damian Green.
Will you give your opinion on it or not?
If not, why not?

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Dec 17 - 05:17 AM

...but one final shot. If "Every post of yours puts you firmly on the anti-Green side" is a statement of what you think and believe then "Every post shows that you are a knobhead" is a statement of what I think and believe. We shall leave it up to other people to decide who's beliefs are more accurate.

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Dec 17 - 05:17 AM

So, are you anti-Green or not Dave?

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Dec 17 - 05:13 AM

That is a statement of what I think and believe.

Welcome to the world of gold mental gymnastics.

Different morality
Different language
Different planet

OK, Keith. As it seems so important to you and, to be honest, it has now become boring. You win.

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Dec 17 - 05:09 AM

Steve,
He sez he didn't know about it. As he would.

So he is guilty whether he admits or denies it?

You have not got a clue that he did or didn't, but you assert that he didn't.

I do not. I merely point out the absence of any hard evidence, just unsubstantiated claims.
No-one's career should be destroyed for that.

Dave,
Every post you have made here has been against Green.
That is a statement of fact, not the expression of an opinion

That is a statement of what I think and believe.
If I got it wrong I am sorry.
Was I wrong Dave? Are pro-Green?

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Mr Red
Date: 07 Dec 17 - 04:39 AM

DtG - you can be so accurate at times!

I have toyed with pointing out that solipsism and sophistry** are an addiction as delineated in this parish. But that would be an insult and thread drift.
Damn it. I mean it as an insult.

Catch 22 anyone?





** or did I mean paralogism?         😡

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 05:06 PM

addicted to the power of winning, & of control.

Not just politicians Mr R. You need look no further than Mudcat to find others ;-)

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 04:59 PM

Sod it. OK, the THIRD most powerful. Arlene Foster is the second. Or the first...

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 04:55 PM

Well Mr Red, let's just make things a bit more accurate. How's about: two *retired* police officers and the *second most powerful* politician in the land...

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Mr Red
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 04:41 PM

people can get addicted to anything, some have addictive natures. The driver is endorphins that are triggered by success.

And politicians are addicted to the power of winning, & of control.
They also have privileges, so the likelihood that there are politicians who have been embarrassed by their on-line activities then changing their methodology is a scenario hard to deny. We have the evidence. Two police officers and a victim.

Your choice is to demonise the complainants or the politician.

How ya gonna choose?

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 04:29 PM

...well... struggling here to come up with a post for green...

errrmmm... he's got nice shoes...???

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 03:57 PM

I expressed an opinion that your posts showed you to be anti-Green.

No you didn't, Keith.

You said, quite categorically

From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 04 Dec 17 - 08:36 AM
...
Every post you have made here has been against Green.

That is a statement of fact, not the expression of an opinion. Unless of course you are using a different language. Which is of course what I keep suggesting.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 02:33 PM

He sez he didn't know about it. As he would. You have not got a clue that he did or didn't, but you assert that he didn't. Well the policeman who uncovered the porn has stated that there's no way Green could not have known about it. According to your thinking, any paedophile or groomer in the country could say he didn't know what was on his computer and have nothing to answer for. Not how things work, Keith. You believe him because he's a Tory and you always believe Tories. It doesn't matter to you how improbable his excuses are. You didn't believe the Labour Party on antisemitism in spite of the fact that you had next to no evidence, is because they are lefties. Pathetic.

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 02:25 PM

"Are you anti-Green or not?"
For Christ's sake Keith, grow up
Green dodged exposure all those years ago with the help o the guardians of the law
The probability is that, given the level of use of porn by politicians there is no reason to believe he wasn't among those using it, but nobody can know for certain one way or the other.
What is wrong is the cover-up system that operates to protect the great and the good
Why do you insist o0n reducing these discussions to their lowest common denominator "I win, you lose" level more often that not in defence of the most extreme aspects of modern society.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 02:08 PM

Dave,

I expressed an opinion that your posts showed you to be anti-Green.
Are you complaining that I was wrong or that I was right?
Are you anti-Green or not?
If you are anti-Green I was right about you.
Apparently only arch Tory supporters are pro-Green. Is that you?

Steve,
Yet Green said diddly-squat about it for nine years.

He did not know about it for 9 years.
The policeman told no-one about it for 9 years.

If he didn't do it, he should sue his accusers and take them to the cleaners.

For what? The existence of porn 9 years ago can not be proved either way.
The police have said they are considering prosecuting the accusers.

There is nothing but unsubstantiated accusations of legal activity.

That is all you have, and it is nothing.
Many politicians are accused of sexual impropriety, but that is not what this thread was started over.

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 01:32 PM

This is very simple. He's been accused of viewing extreme porn on his work computer. The policeman declared that it is inconceivable that Green didn't know it was there. Yet Green said diddly-squat about it for nine years. If he didn't do it, he should sue his accusers and take them to the cleaners. In fact, one of the policemen is actually threatening to take legal action against Green for defaming him. On top of that he's been accused of inappropriate sexual advances by a Tory party worker. But Keith sez he has nothing to defend. If I were in his position and was innocent, I'd be defending myself like mad, I can tell you.

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 01:31 PM

Dave, I said, "Every post of yours puts you firmly on the anti-Green side,"

That is what I think.
Am I wrong, or not. Just tell us!

First you ask why I am posting here now you seem to be avoiding my question by demanding that I answer yours. What have I told you about not being on the moderation team?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 01:19 PM

Bearing a grudge against the tories seems a perfectly reasonable state of mind to me...

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 01:09 PM

Dave, I said, "Every post of yours puts you firmly on the anti-Green side,"

That is what I think.
Am I wrong, or not. Just tell us!

Steve,
The people defending him here are arch-Tories to a man,

He does not need defending because nothing has been produced to condemn him.
Not one thing.

Also, I for one am not any kind of Tory.
I used to vote Labour in the Blair days as I have told you many times before.

Backwoodsman,
This bellowed comment from the guy who has studiously ignored four questions which I've asked him directly not once, but twice!

When you claimed that before I pointed out that I had answered and repeated my answer.
If I really have missed something, put it up now and I will respond.

It will be a networked computer. There will be an audit-trail which will carry evidence of the person whose account was logged-in at the time the material was downloaded. Are you claiming that this audit-trail doesn't exist? Where is your evidence?

You are asking me for evidence of no evidence! No-one has produced this audit trail and Green would be a fool to deny it if there was a chance of it being produced.

Also, we know porn appeared on at least one other parliamentary computer without the users' knowledge.

Where is your evidence of this simply being a matter of them holding a 'grudge'? Do you know the gentlemen personally? Have you discussed their views with them?

Their careers were blighted by the furore due to their actions. Who would not bear a grudge?

Subject: RE: BS: Damian Green
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Dec 17 - 11:48 AM

"Come on Professor, we're all waiting with bated breath for your pearls of wisdom..."
That we should all live that long!!!
Jim Carroll