BS: *&*&^&**** Google & Microsoft

Subject: RE: BS: *&*&^&**** Google & Microsoft
From: Mr Red
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 09:52 AM

however, because the worker opened the attachment in Google Sheets, all the formulas have been lost,

export to .csv from goggle version. Import to slave sheets in your version. clever formulae in a separate sheet referencing the .csv sheets. Export any ancilliary results in .csv format. Upload to Goggle version. That way your formulae are withinin your control.

Some if not most can be macro'ed.

Record macro is the way to go. Then tinker.

There are more ways of skinning a cat than choking it with cream and butter.

Subject: RE: BS: *&*&^&**** Google & Microsoft
From: DaveRo
Date: 14 Feb 18 - 04:45 PM

SPB-Cooperator wrote: I have set up a simple excel timesheet system for a client's worker to enter their working hours each week, and automatically calculate the overtime. However, because the worker opened the attachment in Google Sheets...

So in designing the system you assumed that the user would only open these spreadsheets in MS Excel, or that if they used something else it wouldn't matter. And both of your assumptions were wrong.

One thing you could try, assuming that this is an xls file, is to change it to xlsb. I see that Google Docs cannot (yet) use these. But LibreOffice can, so you need to test whether that works.

Spreadsheets never have been standard, and never will be. Google is doing to Microsoft what Microsoft did to Lotus, and Lotus did to CA SuperCalc, and CA did to Visicalc.

Subject: RE: BS: *&*&^&**** Google & Microsoft
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 14 Feb 18 - 02:56 PM

And Google, in their infinite wisdom have started blocking emails from my client's accounting package, and has come up with some drivel that the domain manager must make any changes. It is none of Google's business to dictate to me whether or not they are going to allow me to do my work, so I have just had to retype an invoice into a word-processing template as a customer have informed the organisation they will only pay invoices submitted as .pdf documents.

When I was studying computer science 36 years ago there was something called industry standards.

I am having a ******* lousy day with IT today.........

Subject: RE: BS: *&*&^&**** Google & Microsoft
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Feb 18 - 01:46 PM

Or are you suggesting that it is the responsibility of people who pay Microsoft to use their product

No, I'm saying that Capitalists, International Corporations and unregulated capitalism don't give a fart in a high wind about consumers and never have. And never will. So its unrealistic to expect anything else.

Its not about providing a useful or quality product. Its about making money for shareholders and co. execs.

'Twas ever thus.

Unfortunately.

See also Tesla thread.

Subject: RE: BS: *&*&^&**** Google & Microsoft
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 14 Feb 18 - 01:02 PM

Or are you suggesting that it is the responsibility of people who pay Microsoft to use their product to know what package all 6 billion people in the world use, and use their package instead because Microsoft is, by their own admission a useless pile of ****, or is Gates to stupid to know that Google sheets does not have adequate functionality. If that is the case, Gates should be paying me for my time because of his incompetence.

Subject: RE: BS: *&*&^&**** Google & Microsoft
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 14 Feb 18 - 12:39 PM

I know that the lazy ***** who run the corporations don't give a **** for the people who pay their wages. The pople should be given the legal power to sack their COEs for being useless. We should have consumer protection that guarantees that the products are fit for purpose, and fit for purpose means that is the recipient of an email receives an attachment, when I get the attachment back it should work as I have designed it, no matter what platform the recipient uses. They are paid exponentially more than me, so if Microsoft/Google pay me the same rate then they can mess people around, if not they are deliberately selling a crap product that is not fit for purpose. And if they lose millions/billions in turnover because some people may chose to use an identical product form google for free, that is their problem, not mine.

Subject: RE: BS: *&*&^&**** Google & Microsoft
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Feb 18 - 12:07 PM

This is more evidence that Google must rewrite google sheets

MUST? I think you need to explore a little bit into how capitalism functions.

Corporations are not there for your convenience.

Subject: RE: BS: *&*&^&**** Google & Microsoft
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 14 Feb 18 - 11:52 AM

More evidence that Google and Microsoft are run by imbeciles who frankly would not even be capable of wiping their own a***es.

I have set up a simple excel timesheet system for a client's worker to enter their working hours each week, and automatically calculate the overtime. However, because the worker opened the attachment in Google Sheets, all the formulas have been lost, so I have had to go back to my original worksheet and enter the timesheet info myself.

This is more evidence that Google must rewrite google sheets so that it is identical to Excel, and if Microsoft don't like another company providing this they can just **** themselves, or admit that everyone who works for both companies as people are worth less than what someone finds on the bottom of their shoe when they tread in something.

As you may gather, I am a bit cross with, once again, my time being wasted by useless people in corporations who are overpaid for doing **** all.

Subject: RE: BS: *&*&^&**** Google & Microsoft
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 04:46 AM

Anyway, it won't be a problem any more until the new year - on holiday now :) :) :) - MS in their further infinite wisdom chose my last day at work this year to get me to take an enforced 3 hour break while waiting for the latest Win10 upgrade to install automatically. They couldn't have timed it better really (he said ironically).

Subject: RE: BS: *&*&^&**** Google & Microsoft
From: Mr Red
Date: 12 Dec 17 - 04:34 AM

another good reason not to migrate to Win10. Mind you there is always "Sendkeys" in VBA, maybe that would solve it.

I remember an Apple evangelist who was complaining he could not use most of his old software in OS X. Then they migrated to Intel processors. And they still say Macs don't get viruses.

any files compatible in both like .csv files is certainly the way to go. The problemo is that .csv only does one sheet at a time. But in VBA that is just a question of how long it takes to process. The point is .csv files are so basic and just data, which means there is less chance for incompatibility. And compatibility is relative. To complexity, I found in 45 years of compatibility.

One has to assume some customers insist on one format, others the other. But if you can hop between the two I would guess .csv would do it. My take would be (in a macro) to import into a sheet(s) and then slave the data (eg in sheet1 "=Sheet2!A1") to where the clever cell formulae reside. No fancy programming once the data are in the spreadsheet. It would duplicate the number of sheets but they can be hidden. I do it across spreadsheet files just so I don't have to re-invent the wheel. The original files are largely untouched but carry current data.

Subject: RE: BS: *&*&^&**** Google & Microsoft
From: EBarnacle
Date: 11 Dec 17 - 09:35 AM

It is still possible to install an older version of MS Office on Windows 10. The only downside is that you keep being asked whether you want to store your data on the Cloud.

Subject: RE: BS: *&*&^&**** Google & Microsoft
From: DaveRo
Date: 11 Dec 17 - 06:18 AM

SPB-Cooperator wrote: ... the sooner 100% comparability becomes international law, the better.

There will never be an 'international law' but there is already an international standard:

ISO/IEC 26300-1

Both Microsoft and Google Docs claim some compliance, but whether that's limited to importing ODF spreadsheets I don't know. If you save a spreadsheet in a proprietary format like xls then don't expect it to be portable.

If you're forced to frequently process data from spreadsheets in different formats then the best way may be to export it as CSV files and import them into your spreadsheet. A lot of that can be automated - in Excel at least.

Subject: RE: BS: *&*&^&**** Google & Microsoft
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 10 Dec 17 - 08:48 AM

If windows can't read/write to google cloud, then would VBA have that level of functionality????

Subject: RE: BS: *&*&^&**** Google & Microsoft
From: Mr Red
Date: 10 Dec 17 - 05:39 AM

I find using macros saves so much time on simple but volumetrically large tasks. 7500 words in a lexicon ie.

You can record a macro which tells you what Excel thinks is the way to go. Though the programming may require time, it is the saving during critical path timings that pay handsomely. And you only have to remember to click once instead of a sequence of boring tasks, any one of which can be missed in a hurry.

VBA is basically a BASIC language, and IS macros.

Subject: RE: BS: *&*&^&**** Google & Microsoft
From: DaveRo
Date: 10 Dec 17 - 04:15 AM

Joe Offer wrote: I don't know much about OneDrive - can I open OneDrive files on a computer that doesn't have MS Office?

My wife's Win 10 machine doesn't have MS Office, and she doesn't have a Microsoft Account (it's been set up with local account like Windows always used to be) so I've not seen OneDrive in use. But I can see that it appears as a disk drive in File Explorer and I would expect it to behave like Dropbox, which allows you to save and load more-or-less any type of file. She certainly uses LibreOffice (like OpenOffice) with documents in Dropbox.

I don't use online storage much - only for file transfer and sharing - but I prefer DropBox to either Microsoft or Google to avoid getting locked in to their systems. Google is a very innovative and technically clever company, but I don't trust them with my data. (I'd trust MS more FWIW.)

Acme's point is important. If you wan't to maintain compatibility and remain in control it's the applications you use - MS Office or OpenOffice for example - and the versions and file formats that are important. Where you store stuff is a separate consideration.

Subject: RE: BS: *&*&^&**** Google & Microsoft
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Dec 17 - 03:50 AM

I am with DaveRo: such incompatibilities are a natural product of competition. Each has to do things that the other can't to try and win market share and then try to exploit that to retain the share. Sorry, that's the market for you! As for extra international regulation to get compatibility - the idea we need more regulation is anathema to a lot of people (not me, but there you are)

Subject: RE: BS: *&*&^&**** Google & Microsoft
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 10 Dec 17 - 03:38 AM

50% of the spreadsheets I use are for finance, and when I, for example, am apportioning a phone bill across projects, I need the apportionments after they are rounded up/down to add up to the total bill so I can post a balanced journal. As I work under pressure I don't want my flow of work interrupted by having to continually download update the schedule, save a temporary file on my laptop, the upload it back to the cloud storage then dleting the temporary file. The flapping around sometimes raking longer than the actual work. the sooner 100% comparability becomes international law, the better.

Subject: RE: BS: *&*&^&**** Google & Microsoft
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 Dec 17 - 05:59 PM

I use Google Sheets and Google Docs for shared efforts, and they both work quite well - more-or-less equivalent to Office 2003, which still seems completely adequate for just about anything. We did all the work for the Rise Again Songbook on Google Docs and Google Sheets, and it worked very well - the final layout was done on an actual computer with InDesign.

But I don't always have a steady Internet connection at home, and that can make the Google programs very sluggish and frustrating. If I'm working on projects by myself and don't need portability, I use a recent version of MS Office - currently Office 2016 Home & Student. It took a bit of study to get MS Office to quit saving files to OneDrive as default. I don't know much about OneDrive - can I open OneDrive files on a computer that doesn't have MS Office?

-Joe-

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: *&*&^&**** Google & Microsoft
From: Mr Red
Date: 09 Dec 17 - 07:36 AM

I refuse to use any form of on-line storage/apps as my primary methodology.

But without wishing to delve, for the above reason, I would say: can macros be utilised just to do the TX & RX? Not direct into the app, but as a copy process. Thinking a bit about it, can .txt &/or .csv files be used in some instances? Think import, cell format, templates run from VBA. It really depends on the complexity of spreadsheets and size. But some of that would be complicated on original layout. My approach was to have secondary spreadsheets to service the original primary. That way I didn't disturb the originals (a good policy!).

The nearest I get to accessing the web programmitcally is where my macros write HTML to files, then another selects those that have changed and copies them to a folder. I then upload anything in that folder in Filezilla, which may take as long as a cup of coffee (BT notso HotSpot!). eg see dance.mister.red

Another feature is where IE (can't see how to get inside Firefox from VBA) loads and sent to a URL. The contents therein scanned for something and the required data extracted. eg Post Code to OSGR.

Maybe there is a stumbling block on password etc. Websites are nervous of bots! And the problemo of software is where it removes human oversight. The software has to be rigidly verified. You really have to enjoy programming (or the joy of invention).

FWIW I toyed with Open Office when there was the only one, now it would have to be Libre Office where macros will work from M$ products. Compatibility, I found, was pretty good on the macro front, it needed tweaks for some instructions until I came across one show stopper and gave up. But then, I consider myself a power user of macros.

Subject: RE: BS: *&*&^&**** Google & Microsoft
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Dec 17 - 02:36 PM

Don't forget Google v Amazon are also having a big childish competitive rivalry at the expense of customer satisfaction...

Subject: RE: BS: *&*&^&**** Google & Microsoft
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Dec 17 - 12:13 PM

DaveRo you are a realist problem solver.

But we who are the innocent Corp. war victims deserve to be pissed off.
Actually we prefer being angry. Relentless change sucks ':^/

Subject: RE: BS: *&*&^&**** Google & Microsoft
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 08 Dec 17 - 10:53 AM

I use storage space at both Google and Microsoft sites, but I intentionally don't use the online version of the MS desktop programs. I fear I'll get shut out of any file that is updated in the online version and the older desktop version won't work any more. I do have Open Office, mostly just to play with occasionally on the desktop computer, and for real use on my small laptop where I don't want to fill up the SSD with the bulk of the MS software.

Subject: RE: BS: *&*&^&**** Google & Microsoft
From: DaveRo
Date: 08 Dec 17 - 10:03 AM

So keep using Excel. Don't use Google Sheets.

I don't use Google Drive but it's just an online file storage system, isn't it? Can't you store Excel files in it? If not, don't use it. Maybe use Microsoft's OneDrive instead.

I said their behaviour was rational. I didn't say you or anyone else would like it.

If your client's action in choosing Google Drive and using Google Sheets is causing you problems, explain to them why you'll be charging them more.

Subject: RE: BS: *&*&^&**** Google & Microsoft
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 08 Dec 17 - 09:45 AM

So who do I invoice = Google for their substandard system which requires reworking of spreadsheets or MS for their substandard operating system that is not capable of doing something simple like opening and saving a file.

So you think treating the public like something on the bottom of their shoes as rational????

Subject: RE: BS: *&*&^&**** Google & Microsoft
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 08 Dec 17 - 09:40 AM

All my work over the last 20 years has been excel based (5 years) for this client. The numbers don't even add up when opened in sheets. Whoever designed google sheets was too stupid to realise that excel uses something called precision as displayed MS and Google need to stop behaving like petulant brats and put customers first. Or windows should be completely redesigned so that all office applications SAVE to google's cloud storage. If they can do it for onedrive they can do it for google.

Subject: RE: BS: *&*&^&**** Google & Microsoft
From: DaveRo
Date: 08 Dec 17 - 09:27 AM

Neither is incompetent. They are in competition and their behaviour is entirely rational. Google want some - or preferably all - of Microsoft's monopoly on office applications. So they do not want to make it easy to revert and they certainly won't want to be limited by functionality that Microsoft control. And if they copied it too closely MS would sue them for copyright.

You, the customer have to decide whether to use Microsoft or Google applications. The old evil empire or the new?

Or persuade your clients to use OpenDocument format and avoid dependence on both of them.

Subject: BS: *&*&^&**** Google & Microsoft
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 08 Dec 17 - 08:26 AM

One of my clients in their infinite wisdom decided to migrate all files to Google Drive.

Unless I am missing a trick somewhere, I have the choice of losing excel functionality, or having to flap around downloading the file(s) I am working on to excel, saving them on my desktop when I have finished before uploading again.

Why is:

(1) Microsoft so incompetent that excel has not been designed to save directly to google drive.

(2) Google is so incompetent that they have not made sure that Google sheets is 100% identical to Excel.

How can I get an apology form both Bill Gates and Larry Page for them not giving a toss about people who have work to do?