What's Happening to our Folk Festivals?

Subject: RE: What's Happening to our Folk Festivals?
From: GUEST,ripov
Date: 30 Dec 17 - 10:15 PM

Sorry "some bloke". If musicians, dancers and singers turn up. meet, and do their "thing" at an agreed location, that is a "festival", not a "fringe". There is no need for concerts at all, workshops may be a welcome addition or not. The only organisation needed for a truly "folk" festival is that "folk" agree when and where it is to happen. A bit like a flash mob, only much longer.
This is not to say that I/we don't appreciate all the work that goes into making a much bigger event of a festival, or the work put in to attempt to start off a regular event. I will never forget the amazing Wheaton Aston festival, where there was a session in the pub and the most amazing young bands played in the back, so that if you heard something you liked you stopped playing and went out to listen. And yet the organiserwonderful event of this could never get enough support.
But the real measure of a festival is not how many bums there were on seats in the concerts, but how many learnt new tunes, learnt new ways of playing, learnt more to bolster their love of the "folk" (or as sme say now "community") arts.

Subject: RE: What's Happening to our Folk Festivals?
From: r.padgett
Date: 31 Dec 17 - 02:23 AM

Beer?

Ray

Subject: RE: What's Happening to our Folk Festivals?
From: Mr Red
Date: 31 Dec 17 - 05:19 AM

Nah - CIDER

If all that is on offer is Strongbow it ain't nefer gonna be a folk festival.

Subject: RE: What's Happening to our Folk Festivals?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 Dec 17 - 05:47 AM

as the guy in the Skimmity Hitchers said...Strongbow, Whiteways, Diamond White...

that's not a cider festival, its a 'shit you find in the back of the fridge festival'!

Subject: RE: What's Happening to our Folk Festivals?
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 31 Dec 17 - 08:38 AM

Wheaton Aston - wear the fox hat?

Ripov totally demolished his own argument.

The level of debate on mudflap these days really is poor.

Subject: RE: What's Happening to our Folk Festivals?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 Dec 17 - 10:27 AM

Wheaton Aston has significance for anyone who has been following the folk scene in the midlands for a lot of years. There are certain locations which just resound.

The Three Barrels - Tony Savage's club in Barwell.
Taff Thomas's in Coseley.
The Old Crown Digbeth.
The Boggery , Solihull.
The Beggar's Bush Sutton Cpldfield.
The Harvester, Sutton Coldfield.
and many more

Long after the clubs have gone and the great acts that played them have died and retired through old age, these places have a special place in our hearts. They are what we did when our parents and many our contemporaries watched Val Doonican and Rolf Harris in suspended animation.

Wheaton Aston was one of those places.

Subject: RE: What's Happening to our Folk Festivals?
From: GUEST,ripov
Date: 31 Dec 17 - 07:48 PM

Thanks Al -

GuestGuest - I think I implied, if I didn't say, that I know these things don't happen entirely on their own. Like almost everything in life an instigator is usually needed, who will have to put in a tremendous amount of work. We're not all leaders. Probably just as well, or there would be carnage!

Nor did I say that there shouldn't be concerts, only that were not an essential part of a folk festival. And if performers are able to gain some recompense and publicity for their hard work who am I to begrudge them that.

What I did say is that a festival is a "folk" festival because "folk" involve themselves in it by doing "folky" things, not because professional musicians are playing what they, or the organisers, regard as folk music (cue for more carnage!). And that hopefully people find it adds to their understanding and enjoyment of the folk arts.

Subject: RE: What's Happening to our Folk Festivals?
From: Acorn4
Date: 31 Dec 17 - 08:32 PM

Agreed about Wheaton Aston - we managed to get along to the last couple of years that they ran it there. Great little festival.

Go the impression there was some opposition in the village - in the last year our car was egged by the "muggles".

Subject: RE: What's Happening to our Folk Festivals?
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 31 Dec 17 - 11:05 PM

So Ripov

Why did you not say what you implied?

My understanding was that you were against the cost of any enterprise being borne by those taking part and that in any case at least a substantial part of said enterprise should be free from all burdens of payment.

Subject: RE: What's Happening to our Folk Festivals?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Jan 18 - 05:36 AM

We English have a lot of bad points.

We're racist, snobbish, sexually unadventurous, we watch too much shit on television, drive too fast and vote for complete bastards. and so on.

one redeeming feature though is the way we do folk music. we are polite....even to odd buggers, we organise events and sessions at the drop of a hat and you can always find somewhere to play if you bother to look - or organise somewhere yourself.

the way we finance these enterprises isn't really a cause for argument. we do it, that's the important thing.

Subject: RE: What's Happening to our Folk Festivals?
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 01 Jan 18 - 07:30 AM

So Big Al

We are all philanthropists - poor ones mostly?

I think not - especially a fair percentage of contributors to this site.

It would be interesting to find out just what percentage of members and contributors to mudflap actually put their hands in their pockets in a meaningful way when attending events. I know I always do and always have.

It's not going to happen of course.

Subject: RE: What's Happening to our Folk Festivals?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 01 Jan 18 - 02:38 PM

I would say in my experience there are more philanthropists than those trying to make a living from the music, certainly in my area of Yorkshire.

Al, I don't always agree with you but with you all the way on your last posting.

Subject: RE: What's Happening to our Folk Festivals?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Jan 18 - 05:54 PM

like I said, we're sexually unadventurous........I haven't put my hand in my pocket in a meaningful way since I was about twelve. I was wearing one of those gaberdine macs, if anyone on the bus noticed - they didn't say anything.

Subject: RE: What's Happening to our Folk Festivals?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 01 Jan 18 - 07:37 PM

Is there any actual example of a festival gettong strangled in the lianas of a parasitic fringe? I can't think of one.

Whereas some festivals seem to have made sure no fringe ever developed - Lorient, Tonder, Cambridge, anywhere based on a supersized marquee in a field - they have all ended up as highly successful commercial enterprises I have no intention of ever patronizing.

Others (Whitby, Sidmouth, and from what I've heard, the National in Australia) have a multifarious fringe which interacts in a whole lot of positive ways with the "official" one. They seem to have set themselves on that course very early on and would be nuts to try to change it. Particularly not at the whim of an anonymous self-righteous trolling whiner who nobody here has ever seen at any folk event.

Subject: RE: What's Happening to our Folk Festivals?
From: GUEST,pauperback
Date: 01 Jan 18 - 08:50 PM

We English have a lot of bad points.
We're racist, snobbish, etc etc etc.

You forgot one: damned.

English are the 3rd most cussed thing
on earth, (right after dogs and cats)

Subject: RE: What's Happening to our Folk Festivals?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Jan 18 - 08:51 PM

well when big ticket prices become involved. it does get prohibitive to people who are pensioners or , just a bit skint.

twenty quid for a concert ticket isn't unusual, but for a couple that's forty quid before you've paid for a coffee in the interval.

its unrealistic, if you think its not going to stop some people attending.

I used to see Ralph McTell at the Cousins Allnighter for 7/6. It was so cheap - people used to buy a ticket just to doss in the coffee bar. Ronnie Scotts actoss the street was £1. 18shiilings and sixpence to see the Alan Haven Duo and Selina Jones. Tony Crombie on drums.

What I'm getting at is that - folk music used to be a night out most people could afford. Last year Ralph sold out that bloody horrible big tent at Sidmouth. 25 quid a pop, and the tickets were gone weeks in advance.

I think people are 'putting their hands in pockets'. But its mainly for the folk dinosaurs....I think theres some great young players and singers around - but somehow they all seem to crave the audience of pensioners paying twenty quid a ticket. The shabby bohemian outlaw chic that made folksingers exciting characters doesn't appeal to the younger set.

Subject: RE: What's Happening to our Folk Festivals?
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 01 Jan 18 - 10:59 PM

Mr Campin

It appears that anyone who disagrees with you has major deficiencies.

I attend plenty of folk events and ALWAYS pay my way.

I don't enter into the fringe events except maybe at Sidmouth at lunchtimes. Last year (2017) I did go on the train to the Sunday sing at Grosmont but that was largely to escape the Whitby Regatta which had decided to share its dates with the Folk Week. I must say I had a cracking afternoon mostly with ticket holders and festival guests and helpers.

Big Al

The Festivals tend to go for the tried and trusted crowd pullers purely because they cannot afford to lose their houses. Yes, there are some very talented young people about. They are mostly musicians although there are a growing number of excellent singers.

In general there is a feeling amongst mudflappers that not enough young people are interested in getting involved in organising things.

It all depends what you call young. I know that Malcolm Storey first got involved in running Whitby when he was 40. How young do you have to be?

Subject: RE: What's Happening to our Folk Festivals?
From: Mr Red
Date: 02 Jan 18 - 04:29 AM

40 is about right. By that age they have accrued some useful skills and have a settled family life maybe. With 20 years of possible service they have enough time to identify successors and cultivate their talent.

And some festivals need an army of very able sergeants and corporals. They should equally have appropriate talents. I well remember Andy Stafford at Toweresy did his customary round of the ceilidh tent and looked up as well as round. He spotted the wind had snapped a joint. He organised ladders tied it up immediately. They cancelled one workshop, held the second event on the grass outside and by mid-day the inspector had arrived from Bristol and declared it fit.
Same weekend, Shrewsbury suffered in the high winds too, but they lost more than a day's dancing. Some skills are not obvious, and rarely needed, but when they are - it can tell. Like looking up!

Subject: RE: What's Happening to our Folk Festivals?
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 02 Jan 18 - 12:12 PM

No "Fringe" at Skagen either, but to be honest Skagen is not nor has it ever claimed to be a "Folk" Festival, it is more of a "Music" festival welcoming many genres.

It happens to coincide with the start on Norway's folkeferie and most of the town is full of people not too fussed about the music put on at the festival. Festival attendance over the years has suffered due to most of the bars and restaurants putting on their own "live music" with greater popular appeal so bums are kept on the seats at those establishments and not at festival venues.

One advantage of no "fringe" is that you do not get that cloud of people wandering around cluttering places up with instrument cases as they nurse a single beer for about two hours.

Subject: RE: What's Happening to our Folk Festivals?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Jan 18 - 01:41 PM

yes but that's what we like chatting to other muso's.

you go to places like France and Germany, that we're supposed to have so much in common with that we'll all drop dead if we leave the EU - and say, where can go out and do a floorspot?

blank incomprehension....

Subject: RE: What's Happening to our Folk Festivals?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 02 Jan 18 - 03:31 PM

Last year Ralph sold out that bloody horrible big tent at Sidmouth. 25 quid a pop, and the tickets were gone weeks in advance.

We booked Ralph twice at the folk club that we ran in Brighton. Each time the fee was ?25. We covered the fee both times but neither time did the 'House Full' notice go up.

It's comments like the one above that make me realise that I have been around too long.

Subject: RE: What's Happening to our Folk Festivals?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Jan 18 - 05:35 PM

well he was co-starring with Wizz.

i couldn't get a ticket for love nor money.

Subject: RE: What's Happening to our Folk Festivals?
From: GUEST,ripov
Date: 02 Jan 18 - 06:23 PM

I was going to mention Gambridge as being simply a big concert and not a festival at all; but a quick look at their website shows that they now encourage sessions and "fringe" events, so there's hope yet!

GuestGuest
I didn't mention monetary consideration at
all, did I? Though if everyone is camping
the farmer will like a handshake!
If premises have to be rented for
workshops, of course there must be a
charge.
If the organiser decides there should be
concerts, again there has to be a charge.
My point is that neither workshops nor
concerts are essential to a festival. And
the day a festival is only judged on
whether it make a profit will be a really
sad day.

As I've said elsewhere, many musicians provide welcome entertainment outside of the main festival venues, at their own expense; for members of the public, who can join in singing their own favourites, can have the basics of different instruments demonstrated; frequently the public, and their children, are allowed to try different instruments. Not to mention that we pay exorbitant festival week campsite fees; And for this you call us freeloaders and parasites?

Subject: RE: What's Happening to our Folk Festivals?
From: GUEST,ripov
Date: 02 Jan 18 - 06:32 PM

And what about local businesses? I've not been to Sidmouth for afew years, but there local shops were given a sticker to display if they contributed. And although it's some time ago now, the Letterkenny festival folded because those who profited wouldn't put back in!

Subject: RE: What's Happening to our Folk Festivals?
From: GUEST,IvanB
Date: 02 Jan 18 - 06:45 PM

Subject: RE: What's Happening to our Folk Festivals?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 03 Jan 18 - 03:44 AM

you go to places like France and Germany, that we're supposed to have so much in common with that we'll all drop dead if we leave the EU - and say, where can go out and do a floorspot?

blank incomprehension....

You would get the same response in Glasgow.

On the other hand I've been to singarounds in Croatia and Turkey that operated much like the ones in the UK, and where (given subtitling) your stuff would have fitted in fine.

Subject: RE: What's Happening to our Folk Festivals?
From: r.padgett
Date: 03 Jan 18 - 04:47 AM

It perhaps might be useful to ask ALL folk festival organisers exactly what their policies are ~ that is what are they hoping to achieve and what potential "audience" do they expect to attract

Do "they" simply wish to book the top artists of the moment?

Do they look to booking artist from other countries?

Do they give preference to up and coming talented youngster?

Do they cater for sing around and folk club style attendees?

Do they treat audience as "punters"?

Do they cater for workshops?

Do they value folk clubs as potential and valued helpers and do they expect such clubs to support them? (in return for? er um)

Cat among the canaries time? mebbe and no offence meant just asking so we know

Ray

Subject: RE: What's Happening to our Folk Festivals?
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 03 Jan 18 - 06:26 AM

Not "happening to" but "happening at" our Folk Festivals at singing sessions are those bound by chains to their tablets assiduously reading the lyrics as they sing. Just recently I noticed the following. A lady singer with a very pleasant singing voice sang perfectly in tune while singing along to a song she knew, yet when it was "her turn" she fired up the tablet, launched into something she most definitely did not know and sang flat - why is that?

Subject: RE: What's Happening to our Folk Festivals?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 03 Jan 18 - 07:11 AM

It would be nice to see some answers to r.padgett's questions - e.g. some sort of mission statement on festival websites. It would be no bad thing if folk clubs did the same.

Subject: RE: What's Happening to our Folk Festivals?
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Jan 18 - 07:15 AM

Do "they" simply wish to book the top artists of the moment?

Do they look to booking artist from other countries?

Do they give preference to up and coming talented youngster?

Do they cater for sing around and folk club style attendees?

Do they treat audience as "punters"?

Do they cater for workshops?

Do they value folk clubs as potential and valued helpers and do they expect such clubs to support them? (in return for? er um)
1. no
2.yes
3. no ,but neither are they excluded, they are given opportunity.
4.no
5. yes but if workshops are not attended they are stopped
6.Yes
www.fastnetmaritime.com

Subject: RE: What's Happening to our Folk Festivals?
From: GUEST,Occasional Lurker
Date: 03 Jan 18 - 07:55 AM

Seven questions, Sandman, but six answers! Which one did you miss?

Subject: RE: What's Happening to our Folk Festivals?
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Jan 18 - 10:21 AM

no 4, it should be yes both, no 5 no no 6 yes but if workshops etc, 7 yes

Subject: RE: What's Happening to our Folk Festivals?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Jan 18 - 10:57 AM

Ta.

Subject: RE: What's Happening to our Folk Festivals?
From: GUEST,Morris-ey
Date: 03 Jan 18 - 11:39 AM

@r.padgett
I am not sure what value answers to those particular questions would bring to your average festival goer?

You have missed many crucial questions:

How close is the camping;

Is there provision for caravans or mobile homes;

What are the toilet facilities;

How cheap is the beer;

what catering is available;

How much do they charge;

Is the festival financially sustainable.

Subject: RE: What's Happening to our Folk Festivals?
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Jan 18 - 12:11 PM

how about, is the music good?are we going to have a pleasant sociable time, what the hell is the relevance of this
"Is the festival financially sustainable."
no one in my experience, decides to go to a festival wondering whether it is financially sustainable

Subject: RE: What's Happening to our Folk Festivals?
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 03 Jan 18 - 01:23 PM

If you wish to raise the point of relevance Dick:

1. how about, is the music good?

2. are we going to have a pleasant sociable time?

1 above is totally subjective
2 above is solely dependent on the individual attending

Subject: RE: What's Happening to our Folk Festivals?
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Jan 18 - 01:30 PM

it does not alter the fact that no one that i have ever heard of goes to a festival wanting to know is it financially sustainabl.,

Subject: RE: What's Happening to our Folk Festivals?
From: GUEST,Morris-ey
Date: 03 Jan 18 - 07:07 PM

As ever Dick the point goes completely over your pointy head....

Subject: RE: What's Happening to our Folk Festivals?
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Jan 18 - 07:27 PM

as ever Morriss -ey you are being rude and nonsensical

Subject: RE: What's Happening to our Folk Festivals?
From: GUEST,Airy
Date: 03 Jan 18 - 08:10 PM

Participating Observer stirs pot

Subject: RE: What's Happening to our Folk Festivals?
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 04 Jan 18 - 12:23 AM

Apart from Dick and the occasional comment from Malcolm Storey no festival organisers - extant or retired - seem to respond to anything on mudflap.

I wonder why?

Subject: RE: What's Happening to our Folk Festivals?
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 04 Jan 18 - 12:36 AM

No stirring intended or involved GUEST Airy.

1. Whether music is considered good or not is simply a subjective matter of opinion by those listening to it - a festival organiser cannot guarantee it.

2. Neither can any festival organiser guarantee that everyone attending a festival has a "pleasant sociable time", as they (festival organisers that is) have no way of ensuring that those attending their festival are a) "pleasant", or b) "sociable", or c) Both. It is my belief that those who are both pleasant and sociable normally do have a pleasant and sociable time - down to the individual not the festival organiser.

Subject: RE: What's Happening to our Folk Festivals?
From: r.padgett
Date: 04 Jan 18 - 09:29 AM

Yes yes many more questions could be added to any Questionnaire and inform festival organisers of what potential audience attendees are looking for and or why they choose to stay at home!! = Mission Statement

and indeed closeness of showers/toilets and decent camp site and alternative accommodation ~ and the weather (not really controllable)

What target audience is YOUR festival aimed at?? in terms of age/ability/instruments/ punters in terms of beer sales/workshops/dancers/singers/booked professional artist/younger performers

There are many facets to festivals and ppl will look basically for what they like to do before paying sometimes high prices ~ or find other festivals that fit their purse strings!

Ray

Subject: RE: What's Happening to our Folk Festivals?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 04 Jan 18 - 10:57 AM

Apart from Dick and the occasional comment from Malcolm Storey no festival organisers - extant or retired - seem to respond to anything on mudflap.

I wonder why?
At this point may I put up my hand as a festival organiser? As soon as anything is posted that has a particular relevance to my experience, or says something that the likes of Malcolm Storey has already said, I will make a contribution.

Subject: RE: What's Happening to our Folk Festivals?
From: Mr Red
Date: 04 Jan 18 - 11:10 AM

the EU - and say, where can go out and do a floorspot?

Gennetines. 2 weeks of it.

Not floorspots, this is a dancing festival. But numerous ad hoc sessions during the day, and all musos were top notch and mostly professional, and a lone red drummer. 7 Bals at 9pm through to about 1 or 2. After than ad hoc dance bands on 3 stages and dancers still standing tile abut 4:30.

I never got past 1am.

And the instrument store was free and permanently manned. Like everything else - planned, intelligently.

Subject: RE: What's Happening to our Folk Festivals?
From: peteglasgow
Date: 04 Jan 18 - 12:11 PM

does anyone know who is performing at this year's returning village pump festival at farleigh hungerford?

Subject: RE: What's Happening to our Folk Festivals?
From: Mr Red
Date: 05 Jan 18 - 03:07 AM

Tickets now on sale. Latest news is little more than that.
info [e-mail]

Subject: RE: What's Happening to our Folk Festivals?
From: r.padgett
Date: 05 Jan 18 - 03:43 AM

I do think that festivals do have to cut their cloth and are often constricted by availability of VENUES to accommodate whatever event is required

I (no names) am somewhat concerned that festivals can become one big beer festival ~ and pubs are allocated a mic and loud singer (hopefully a folk artist needing the money or local act and not a pop artist) this goes to the root of what Folk is all about ~ seats and ability to listen without mouthing at others due to deafness

Worse still other pubs decide to their own thing ~ hopefully festival funding will reflect pubs higher turnover!! Shops and other establishments sometimes have short arms and long pockets!

Malcolm Storey was succesful in his period of tenure at Whitby ~ the festival was augmented by festival fringe and price of beer at the
trendy pubs was high! Still is and of course the high visibility of dance groups of all ilks is a great advertisement ~ WMC still have decent prices btw!

Current 2018 Whitby ff should attract more ppl as no clash with the Regatta for accommodation ~ venues can be a walkaway and I know festival goers who are getting on and have mobility issues will stay near the best venue

Lot of goodwill involved in running festivals and not everyone is a "paid" booked artist and there are many still there "on their annual holidays" or giving their time and expertise for nowt ~ so financial equations will often ignore this aspect of goodwill or deter potential attendees ~ of course a true ticket price would be enormous if everyone was paid!!

You all know that singaround festivals and dedicated workshops have all now been established and the high financial outlay of bigger all encompassing festivals have lost some footfall ~ square one!!

Ray

Subject: RE: What's Happening to our Folk Festivals?
From: GUEST,Malcolm Storey
Date: 05 Jan 18 - 06:32 AM

Ray

What is WMC?

Subject: RE: What's Happening to our Folk Festivals?
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 05 Jan 18 - 06:38 AM

Vic

Sorry - how did I manage to leave you off the shortlist?