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BS: Another year, same old story

Jack Campin 27 Jun 18 - 08:20 AM
Greg F. 06 Feb 18 - 09:27 AM
Jack Campin 02 Feb 18 - 06:42 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Feb 18 - 06:25 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Feb 18 - 07:21 AM
keberoxu 31 Jan 18 - 12:12 PM
Jack Campin 31 Jan 18 - 07:26 AM
Jack Campin 31 Jan 18 - 07:12 AM
Jim Carroll 30 Jan 18 - 01:01 PM
Jim Carroll 30 Jan 18 - 12:38 PM
Jack Campin 30 Jan 18 - 10:26 AM
keberoxu 26 Jan 18 - 01:14 PM
Jim Carroll 26 Jan 18 - 01:00 PM
keberoxu 26 Jan 18 - 11:53 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Jan 18 - 10:04 AM
Acme 26 Jan 18 - 09:54 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Jan 18 - 08:55 AM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Jan 18 - 08:43 AM
Joe Offer 26 Jan 18 - 06:40 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Jan 18 - 06:24 AM
Joe Offer 26 Jan 18 - 04:29 AM
Joe Offer 26 Jan 18 - 04:15 AM
Dave the Gnome 26 Jan 18 - 04:03 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Jan 18 - 03:57 AM
Dave the Gnome 26 Jan 18 - 03:57 AM
Joe Offer 26 Jan 18 - 03:48 AM
Dave the Gnome 26 Jan 18 - 03:35 AM
Joe Offer 25 Jan 18 - 10:11 PM
keberoxu 25 Jan 18 - 06:35 PM
Dave the Gnome 25 Jan 18 - 05:37 PM
Donuel 25 Jan 18 - 05:20 PM
Donuel 25 Jan 18 - 12:46 PM
Donuel 25 Jan 18 - 07:36 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Jan 18 - 05:58 AM
Joe Offer 24 Jan 18 - 11:49 PM
mg 24 Jan 18 - 08:48 PM
Jim Carroll 24 Jan 18 - 08:34 PM
Donuel 24 Jan 18 - 08:15 PM
Donuel 24 Jan 18 - 08:03 PM
Greg F. 24 Jan 18 - 06:41 PM
Joe Offer 24 Jan 18 - 06:36 PM
Donuel 24 Jan 18 - 05:37 PM
Raggytash 24 Jan 18 - 04:57 PM
Joe Offer 24 Jan 18 - 04:35 PM
Joe Offer 24 Jan 18 - 03:59 PM
Jim Carroll 24 Jan 18 - 02:52 PM
Jack Campin 24 Jan 18 - 02:44 PM
mg 24 Jan 18 - 02:06 PM
Senoufou 24 Jan 18 - 01:49 PM
Donuel 24 Jan 18 - 12:59 PM

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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Jack Campin
Date: 27 Jun 18 - 08:20 AM

My Spanish isn't good enough to make complete sense of this, but it looks like the Chilean scandal just got a lot murkier. A priest got iced to keep the story quiet?

http://www.latercera.com/nacional/noticia/obispo-chillan-no-investigo-religiosos-reconocieron-conductas-impropias-investigacion-judicial/221952/


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Feb 18 - 09:27 AM

A victim’s graphic letter describing sexual abuse by a priest that was witnessed by a controversial Chilean bishop was hand-delivered to Pope Francis three years ago — contradicting the pontiff’s claims that he was unaware anyone had come forward about a coverup, The Associated Press reports.

The eight-page letter, a copy of which was obtained by the AP, was reportedly delivered to the pope by Boston Cardinal Sean O’Malley in 2015. The letter detailed sexual abuse that the victim said was witnessed by Bishop Juan Barros, according to AP.


https://www.yahoo.com/news/ap-exclusive-despite-denial-pope-got-abuse-victims-090653836.html

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/letter-pope-francis-sexual-abuse_us_5a794132e4b00f94fe9457a0


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Jack Campin
Date: 02 Feb 18 - 06:42 AM

While I don't think the Church as a whole has taken a stand against the Council of Europe's "Istanbul Convention" combatting domestic violence against women, some bits of it certainly have. Countries opposed to it are Poland, Spain, Lithuania and Latvia, with the Church's heid-bummer in Croatia currently trying to block it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Feb 18 - 06:25 AM

The Church appears to have a death wish - it seems to have now entered into politics big-time
It has already launched a somewhat vicious campaign against the proposed repeal of the Eighth Amendment from the Irish Constitution, and now this, from this morning's Irish Times
Jim Carroll

McAleese Barred By Cardinal From Vatican Conference On Women
Patsy McGarry Religious Affairs Correspondent

The Vatican has barred former President of Ireland Mary McAleese from taking part in a conference to mark International Women’s Day which was originally due to take place in the Holy See.
The list of potential speakers required approval from a cardinal, but Mrs McAleese was not given approval to participate.
As a result, the organisers have moved the “Why Women Matter” conference on March 8th to premises outside the Vatican, and have also invited Mrs McAleese to be keynote speaker. She had previously been asked to take part in a panel discussion at the event. The conference was organised by the Voices of Faith group, which is seeking to convince the Vatican that women “have the expertise, skills and gifts to play a full lead¬
ership role in the church”.
The inclusion of Mrs McAleese and two other speak¬ers on its programme was op¬posed by Cardinal Kevin Farrell, prefect of the Dicastery for the Laity, Family and Life. A Dubliner who spent most of his clerical life in the US, he is the most senior Irish man at the Vatican. It is understood the other two speakers were Polish theo¬logian Zuzanna Radzik and Ssenfuka Joanita Warry, a lesbian Catholic who is pioneering LGBT rights in Uganda.
Required approval
Chantal Götz, managing director of Voices of Faith, told The Irish Times the list of speakers required approval from the cardinal. “Cardinal Farrell sent back to me the list of names who he gave permission [for]. Mary McAleese and two others were not on it,” she said. “Unfortunately, unsuccessful efforts
were made to have the cardinal change his mind.”
Rather than exclude the three women, “we decided our¬selves to move the conference to a venue outside the Vatican, she said, adding Mrs McAleese was then asked to be the key¬note speaker. Ms Götz said it was the first time she had en¬countered any issues since the group began organising similar conferences in 2014. Mrs McAleese declined to comment, saying she is awaiting a reply from Pope Francis to a letter she sent him on the matter.
Cardinal Farrell is the Vatican official with responsibility for co-ordinating efforts around the World Meeting of Families 2018 in Dublin next August, which will include a vis¬it by Pope Francis.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Feb 18 - 07:21 AM

More repercussions
Stuck between a religious rock and a political hard place
Jim Carroll

From This morning's Times
MAGDALENE VICTIMS DIE WAITING FOR REDRESS
Ellen Coyne
Women with disabilities who spent time in Magdalene laundries have died waiting for the state to pay them the compensation they were owed.
The 'shocking' experiences of Magdalene laundry survivors who were denied compensation by the government was detailed in scathing evidence to an Oireachtas committee yesterday.
Peter Tyndall, the ombudsman, strongly criticised the government for refusing to compensate some of the women who were incarcerated in simi?lar workhouses because it claimed that it would cost too much.
Women with intellectual disabilities who are owed a total of ?1 million have not been paid because assisted capacity legislation has not been enacted. It was revealed yesterday that it would not be enacted until at least 2019, despite 17 elderly survivors waiting for compensation. Many are in the care of the religious orders that once housed them in Magdalene laundries.
The Department of Justice is locked in a dispute with Mr Tyndall, who pub?lished a damning report last year that said that the criteria the government was using for the redress scheme were too narrow. A total of 106 women have been refused payments because offi?cials found that they were not put in one of 12 specific institutions.
Mr Tyndall said that many of the women cleaned the same sheets as those in the laundries but were unfairly excluded from access to compensation. He told politicians that less than half of the ?54 million estimated cost of the scheme had been paid out and that it would cost a fraction of the remaining amount to pay the 106 women.
"I personally believe that the nature of the wrong that's been done to these women needs to be addressed regardless of the cost," Mr Tyndall said. After being an ombudsman for ten years, his report on the Magdalene laundry scheme was the first time that he had reached a point where a department "absolutely, categorically" refused to engage with a report before it was published, he said. "I am very, very disappointed by that."
He also criticised the department's decision to exclude women who qualified for an industrial schools compensation scheme from the Magdalene re?dress scheme Many women who were taught in one of the schools were sent to laundries when they were older.
"In order to avoid some people being compensated twice for the same wrongdoing, some people are being de?nied any compensation. That can't be right," Mr Tyndall said. The only explanation he had received for excluding them was a financial one.
When the scheme was set up in 2013 there were 40 women with serious in?tellectual disabilities who were owed compensation but were not paid because they had capacity issues. The Assisted Decision-Making (Capacity) Act, which passed in 2015 and would allow the women to be paid, cannot come into effect because a new decision support service has not yet been set up.
The figure is now 17 women. The group includes nine women who spent more than a decade in the institutions and are entitled to the maximum ?100,000 under the state's restorative scheme. Mr Tyndall said that while some women had been made wards of court others had died before they could be paid. He said the department was not "proactively" ensuring women were paid and had not started to address the issue until it was raised by his office.
Jimmy Martin, assistant secretary at the Department of Justic?, later con?firmed that some women had been permanently excluded from the scheme because they had died waiting for the government to pay them.
Department officials also said that the crucial law would not be enacted this year, describing a 2018 date as "very, very ambitious".


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: keberoxu
Date: 31 Jan 18 - 12:12 PM

Jack, I found it telling
that the Papal update story
name-dropped Cardinal O'Malley.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Jack Campin
Date: 31 Jan 18 - 07:26 AM

Meanwhile it looks like the Pope has changed his mind about Barros:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-42883441


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Jack Campin
Date: 31 Jan 18 - 07:12 AM

Here is the website of that East Lothian sadist's employers:

http://www.delasalle.org.uk/

No reference whatever to any wrongdoing on their part, ever. No sort of apology.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jan 18 - 01:01 PM

"And was it my post, and my link in the post, that got the Obit thread closed?"
Why are you people so quick to put the blame elsewhere?
Joe actually said he closed th3e thread because of the squabbling on an obit thread
I've no idea whose posting got it closed K, any more than you have; I assumed that, as the thread had already discussed the political implications of Cox’s killing at length from the very beginning it was OK to continue in the same vein
Perhaps it was those who objected to this happening who got it closed - who knows what goes on between a forum fairy's pointy ears?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jan 18 - 12:38 PM

"And was it my post, and my link in the post,
that got the Obit thread closed?"
I've no idea whose posting got it closed K
I assumed that, as the thread had already discussed the political implications at length from teh very beginning it was OK to continue in the same vein
Perhaps it was those who objected to this who got it closed - who knows what goes on between a forum fairy's wings?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Jack Campin
Date: 30 Jan 18 - 10:26 AM

Another Scottish case. Somebody in the institution MUST have known what this monk was doing - and kept quiet about it for nearly 50 years.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-42874275


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: keberoxu
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 01:14 PM

26 Jan 2018 -- that quote is yours

30 Nov 2017 -- that quote is Brendan Cox's,
from the
Obit: Member of Parliament Jo Cox (1974 - 2016) thread;
that is to say,
the quote appears in a link
contributed in a post to the obit thread;
the post with the link is dated 18 Jan 2018.

Somebody posting to the Jo Cox Obit thread
thought it was more important to have the last word
than to respect "the person who died."

Speaking for myself, though,
when I posted to the Jo Cox Obit thread
on 17 Jan 2018,
was it to call attention to my political views,
or to call attention to Jo Cox and her legacy?
And was it my post, and my link in the post,
that got the Obit thread closed?


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 01:00 PM

Sorry K, did not understand your posting
None of those postings is mine
You've got to admire the technique of these fellers
They hardly take part in a discussion
They carefully choose a side and accuse those they don't agree with of "closing threads"
If arguing is "closing threads" than maybe we should all stay away
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: keberoxu
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 11:53 AM

26 Jan 2018:
I have never killed a thread -- unless you consider argument murder

roughly 25 Jan 2018:
When an obituary thread becomes more about
some sort of personal squabble,
than it is about the person who died,
I think it's time to close the thread
and let the dead rest in peace.

17 Jan 2018:
quote from Metro News website:
"One of the awful things about losing Jo
is knowing how much difference
she would have made in the world.
When the kids wake up this morning
I'm going to tell them how --
even though she's not here --
she's still making the world a better place."

quote from
article dated 30 Nov 2017:
"Our most important relationship is now being
mediated through this man who has
the mental approach of a toddler.
That's probably being harsh to toddlers.
I think my kids would deal with international affairs
in a much more effective way. "


One of those things, preceding,
is not like the others . . .


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 10:04 AM

"Your arguing killed one thread this week already, maybe one is enough."
I have never Killed a thread - unless you consider argument murder
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Acme
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 09:54 AM

So does that mean you're going to stop rehashing this argument, Jim? Your arguing killed one thread this week already, maybe one is enough.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 08:55 AM

You may not be defending the culprits Joe, but you have always played down the role of the church in covering it up and the responsibility they bear for allowing it to happen in the first place
You accuse those of us of hating your church and have, on occasion, suggested we are attacking your religion - neither is the case.
My point has always been that once the church and State politics become entwined, as it has become here, invariably the people are the losers.
Examples such as the murder of Romero and the persecution of decent clergymen are indications that even churchmen are not safe once this happens.
The Church has lost any claim to the right of being entrusted to the welfare of children - had any other body behaved similarly it would have been dismantled and those involved punished yet battles like proof of baptismal demands in order to be educated, Church ownership and control of schools. pregnancy termination, dual sex marriage.... are still being fought here.
In the end, this has led to mass disillusionment among the faithful and a major crisis in the church
As an atheist, I would be happy to see the role of the church cut to the bare minimum tomorrow - but not like this
I have far too many Catholic friends and relatives who would be deeply hurt if your church should crash like this
JIm Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 08:43 AM

Dave,
Pakistanis have a propensity for underage girls

No-one here has ever said that.
The over-representation in convictions has been discussed. That is all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 06:40 AM

Oh, well, I guess there's no hope. You seem to be completely unable to think in a straight line, Jim. Whether you believe it or not, I'm more-or-less on your side. But you keep having illusions that I'm out there defending wrongdoing, both in my church and in Israel. Why would I do that? Your intransigence makes it impossible to carry on any sort of reasonable communication.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 06:24 AM

""proof" of the accusations that you were a Jew hater. "
Not true Joe - it took a lot of effort on my part to get you to withdraw your accusation
DEfending the indefensible - as far back as your arguing that if the victims insisted on binge compensated the Vatican would have to sell its paintings, and pretty well everything in between
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 04:29 AM

Jim, I was only teasing when I took advantage of something you said as "proof" of the accusations that you were a Jew hater. Do you remember how bad you felt?

Well, Jim, that's how bad your attacks and accusations make me feel; and you have carried them on for years, far longer than my one thing that I thought I was doing just in fun. It makes me feel like an outcast here.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 04:15 AM

You know, Jim, I identify with the Catholic Church. After 8 years of seminary, it's hard not to. It has been an integral part of my life for almost 70 years. I had so much hope for my church when the Second Vatican Council came, proclaiming all sorts of wonderful ideals. And then came the reign of John Paul II, 1978 to 2005, 27 years of retrenchment and repression - and the coverup of the sexual abuse of children. You have no idea how terrible I felt about all those horrible things happening in the church I loved. I struggled to rise above all that and carry on, but it was hard.

Benedict made a good start in rising out of that repressive period, and Francis is a ray of hope, but I'm still not certain we're going to survive all this.

So, yeah, Jim, I'm still trying to come out of the bad times that lasted so long.

And you don't help. Not a bit.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 04:03 AM

I don't think anyone has tried to 'defend the indefensible', Jim but if you can provide links to where that has happened I will happily admit that I was wrong.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 03:57 AM

"And I'm sick of it."
And some people are sick of being called bigiots by someone who has bent over backwards to defend the indefensible - here and elsewhere.
Please stop reducing this to vicious name calling and respond to the information you are being given - also here and elsewhere
There is bo bigotry here - only rightful horror at what has happened to your church and the damage that it has done to people's lives
THIS SEEMS a FAIR SUMMING UP and more to come when Scotland and Northern Ireland hit the fan
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 03:57 AM

It may be an age thing, Joe. We may all still be folkies but none of us are getting any younger. I like to think that the less cynical and bigoted amongst us are at least still young at heart :-)

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 03:48 AM

Yeah, Dave, but I had the expectation that folk music people would be above all that. In my younger years in the folk music community, most of the people I encountered were gentle people who believed in peace and harmony. We were going to change the world and make it what it should be. But some of us, just got cynical...and bigoted.
-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 03:35 AM

Yes, Joe, and I am sick of people saying that all English are racists, Pakistanis have a propensity for underage girls and East Europeans are criminal scroungers. I cannot do anything about it but complain. If you have the power to do something, then do it.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 10:11 PM

Why take it personally, Dave? Because the bigots here paint with a very broad brush. And I'm sick of it.

It's nice for people to tell me not to be offended and that people don't really think that of me, but the fact of the matter is that my religion has been condemned and ridiculed here for far too long. I know that not everyone does it, but there is enough of it and it has gone on long enough, that it hurts.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: keberoxu
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 06:35 PM

you go, Donuel


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 05:37 PM

Joe, even those who seem to imply that Christians are bad do not mean that they all are. On this forum we have had views stating that all the English are racists, Pakistanis are more likely to groom young girls and East Europeans are criminal scroungers. I pull them up on it because no-one should be stereotyped. We are all individuals and have responsibility for our own actions. Place of birth or inherited culture and religion do not define us. We make our own choices and should not be tarred with the same brush as those that make the news in a bad way.

You do not need to be so defensive. Everyone here knows that you and the vast majority of Christians are good and would not countenance such acts or try to hide them. Just as the vast majority of humans would not. If you could have done something about it, I am sure you would have. If you could not do anything about it, why take it so personally?

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 05:20 PM

quote from; Judge Acquilina

Hey buddy you got over your skis for a moment

Joe you are already a highly respected and appreciated musicologist/
If I were you I would drop recounting your defensive expertise regarding clergy investigations. Like a lawyer you had a job to do.
Flaunting that job will, as you claim, create enemies.
Your Pope is well read, let him carry the water and catch up with attitudes today. The times they are achangin.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 12:46 PM

Joe
I am not really well-liked because I speak out. I don't have many friends because I speak out. If you ask me a question, you better be ready for the answer. I speak out because I want change. Because I don't believe in hiding the truth. I am not saying I am always right. But I try.

guess who


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 07:36 AM

Joe,
I only expect 20% to understand the psychoanalytics I discussed earlier and less than 10% to experience it for themselves.

If an epiphany was common or easy, everyone would have one, every day.
Besides I told you that you in particular would not understand easily. It would be like teaching empathy and compassion to the Freedom caucus.

As with anything if there is a will to understand, there is a way.
Despite that you should have the opportunity to learn something new if want to or not. After all it was intended as a gift.

Cheers


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 05:58 AM

Start with a "ew bad apples" and proceed through the discussions to defending a pope who has now held his hands up to his own stupidity Joe
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 11:49 PM

Jim Carroll says: Your constant defence of the protecting of serial paedophelia by your church is equally offensive


OK, Mr. Jim. Give me some examples where I am guilty of "protecting of serial paedophelia by [my] church"

The fact of the matter is that I opposed this stuff before you even knew about it. You and Greg_F are the two biggest offenders. You are blinded by your own propaganda.

-Joe Offer-

P.S. Donuel, I don't understand what you're saying most of the time. Raggytash, I respect that you and Steve Shaw make a good effort to be rational and fair.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: mg
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 08:48 PM

My church too though. And I do not believe for a minute the pope is trying to clean up this mess. I do not know what his problem is, but he has a huge problem in this area, and it is not merely a blind spot. I have had one pope in my lifetime I could believe in, and that was John Paul I, Luciani Albino. Imagine what he would have on day one if he knew about this, and he was a tremendous advocate for children. He would have gone after them with a bullwhip I do believe. He would have risked his life, as he did with the mafia or whoever helped send him to eternal rest. He would have immediately replaced people, not by promoting them either. He would perhaps have sent them to unreachable island monasteries, but he would have gotten them the hell away from children and vulnerable adults. Actually, so would I have done all that. And more. Gotten canon lawyers in to fix any loopholes. let it be known, probably on day on, but no later than day 3, that these sorry days are over and we will sell the sistine chapel if we have to to make it right but by all that is holy the buck stops here and there will be no more and there will be no more coverups or the coveruppers will join the abusers in gaol.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 08:34 PM

"Your constant attacks on my church are offensive. "
Your constant defence of the protecting of serial paedophelia by your church is equally offensive
I asked you some time ago if the things I described happened
You have yet to reply
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 08:15 PM

Let me expand my prior comments;

Ego boundaries make enemies that do not exist Joe. I speak in second religious-psychoanalysis terms. I don't expect you to get it right away except to say no one is attacking you, except yourself.

This is all naturally confounding until you have the ah ha moment

Finding the ah ha moment is most challenging for a person to achieve but if you do you will know We are not bigots, we are not the enemy and some religious teachings will be seen in a new light


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 08:03 PM

Let me expand my prior comments;

Ego boundaries make enemies that do not exist Joe. I will now be speaking in advanced religio-psychoanalysis terms. I don't expect you to get it right away except to say, no one is attacking you, except yourself.

This is all naturally confounding until you have the ah ha moment.

In religion the ego manifests as the Devil. And of course no one realizes how smart the ego is because it created the devil so you could blame someone else. The ego is the worst confidence trickster we could ever imagine because you don't see it. It's con is "I am you. The ego hides in the last place you would ever look, within itself. It disguises its thoughts as your thoughts it disguises its feelings as your feelings. You think its you.
People who need to protect their own egos knows no bounds, they lie, deny, cheat, steal, kill, do whatever it takes to maintain ego boundaries. People have no clue they are in a kind of prison, they don't know they have an ego, They don't know the distinction.
At first it is hard for the mind to accept there is something beyond itself, there is something of greater value, that there is something greater than itself. There is no such thing as an external enemy, no matter what that voice in your head is telling you, all projection of an enemy is a projection of the ego as an enemy. Your greatest enemy is your own ego, your own ignorance, your own casting of your own enemies. These come from a variety of religious teachings and psychology, not just one dogma or a religion that collects and trains egos.

Finding the ah ha moment is most challenging for a straight line (linear} person to achieve.
Then you will know We are not bigots, we are not the enemy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 06:41 PM

Thank you for kicking us [Christians] when we're down, you bigots.

That's OK, Joe -

1. Re-read 24 Jan 18 - 04:57 PM

2. Take comfort in the fact that good "Christians" like Trump, Joe Arpaio, Roy Moore, Tony Perkins, Franklin Graham & the rest of 'em call us "bigots" waging a war on Christianity,too.

Greg F.
Hateful Bigots Association of America.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 06:36 PM

After the 25-year, oppressive reign of John Paul II, we finally have a Pope I can believe in, somebody who is trying to clean up the mess. He may make mistakes here and there, but he seems to be trying to do his best. But you guys are all over my Pope and my church like rats on a carcass.

And your "good Christian" mockery is a prime example of your bigotry.

Although it may happen in our midst, Catholics don't support child molestation and don't consider child molesters to be "good Christians."

I know that many of you believe in combat as it it were a religion, but that's offensive to a lot of us who prefer peaceful, constructive discussion.

Your constant attacks on my church are offensive. And for many of you, your attacks are constant on many fronts. And that's offensive.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 05:37 PM

Suppose you are a cop dealing with crime. Crime is still somewhat abstract until he becomes the victim, Your POV is changed forever,

A bigot in this sense is a victim. A person with an abstract POV may not understand especially if they see themselves as being their ego. The greatest con job consciousness can commit is making us think we are who or what our ego says we are. We are more than that. When ego is no longer the boss, we go from being humans to human beings.
The same goes for victims.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 04:57 PM

Once again Joe I will reiterate that no-one is accusing YOU of being responsible for any of the atrocities that have been committed by some of your faith.

YOU ARE NOT TO BLAME FOR ANY OF THIS.

Is that clear, no one is attacking you, I have said this on so many occasions I have lost count.

Once again.

YOU ARE NOT TO BLAME FOR ANY OF THIS.

However, some of your colleagues, within your faith have been so remiss, so negligent, so derelict, so thoughtless, so offhand and unconcerned about the victims of prolonged abuse that I will persist in bringing this subject to the fore.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 04:35 PM

Somebody called my attention to this article in The Atlantic.
It's true. It's a fascinating story, and it shows how really weird Pope Piux IX ("Pio Nono") was. Please note that word "some" in the headline. It's a very important qualifier. Too many of you bigots are too quick to change that word to "all." And that's when you become a bigot. This incident does not describe what most Catholics consider being a "good Catholic." The vast majority of Catholics do not applaud such conduct or child molestation or any of the long list of weirdnesses you bigots cite. When you scoff and call these criminals "good Christians," you insult the rest of us. And that makes you a bigot.

Don't like being judged a bigot? Don't be one.

Why Some Catholics Defend the Kidnapping of a Jewish Boy

It?s not about the Church?s relationship with Jews. It?s about the culture war inside the Church.

One summer evening in 1858, the police showed up at the home of a Jewish family in Bologna, Italy, and took their six-year-old child. Authorities had discovered that the child, Edgardo Mortara, had been secretly baptized when he was a baby. Edgardo had fallen gravely ill and his Catholic nanny baptized him for fear that he would die a Jew and be locked out of heaven. But Edgardo survived?and, in the eyes of the Church, he was now a Catholic. Papal law mandated that all Catholic children must receive a Catholic education, and so he was separated from his Jewish family, with Pope Pius IX personally overseeing his religious education.

The ?Mortara case? spurred a wave of protests, with activists and intellectuals from Europe and the U.S. petitioning Pius IX to return the child to his parents. The pope refused. Edgardo eventually became a priest, and in 1940 he died in a Belgian monastery. The Vatican never apologized for his kidnapping specifically. But in 2000, John Paul II issued an apology for the persecution of Jews. Today, the dominant Catholic attitude toward the Mortara case is one of regret: ?It?s not one of the episodes that the Church is very proud of,? Massimo Faggioli, a Church historian at Villanova University, told me.

Now, however, conservative voices are defending Pius IX?s decision to abduct a Jewish boy. In the latest issue of First Things, a right-leaning Catholic magazine, the Dominican priest and theologian Romanus Cessario wrote a review of Kidnapped by the Vatican? The Unpublished Memoirs of Edgardo Mortara, which recently appeared in English translation. In the book, author Vittorio Messori, an Italian Church historian, goes through Mortara?s personal archive and defends the abduction. Likewise, Cessario calls the law upon which Pius IX acted ?not unreasonable? and casts Edgardo?s kidnapping in a positive light: ?Divine Providence kindly arranged for his being introduced into a regular Christian life.?

Cessario?s essay spurred strong reactions within the Catholic world. Michael Sean Winters, writing for the National Catholic Reporter, called it ?morally repugnant? and ?intellectually deplorable.? Catholic intellectual Robert George called it ?an embarrassment.? Meanwhile, the Mortara family is upset that some people have the chutzpah to defend the abduction today: ?It really hurt, when we heard some are still defending Pius IX,? Eléna Mortara, the great-granddaughter of Edgardo?s older sister, told me. She said that Edgardo?s kidnapping has always been an open wound for the family, ?something we still discuss at every Passover,? even if it sometimes provokes dark humor: ?We had this inside joke about being the only Jewish family with a priest uncle.?

The Mortara case has, in recent memory, been a source of tension between Catholics and Jews. When the process of beatifying Pius IX began 18 years ago, the Italian Jewish community protested. The descendants of the Mortara family wrote an open letter to John Paul II, asking him not to make the man who?d kidnapped their relative into a candidate for sainthood who would be publicly venerated. Pius was beatified anyway. Today, however, Steven Spielberg is making a film about the Mortara case, and Eléna Mortara says that defending the kidnapping has become ?a very marginal position.?

So what?s driving some conservative intellectuals, like Cessario and Messori, to defend it? Anti-Semitism does not appear to be their motivation. ?I hold Jewish people and the Jewish faith in high regard,? Messori told me. ?It?s where Christianity came from.?

Rather than being about Catholics? attitudes toward Jews, the debate about the Mortara case today is more about a war raging inside the Catholic Church. Since the Second Vatican Council, which addressed the Church?s relationship to the modern world, the Church has progressively changed its posture toward secular morality, a process that has accelerated under Pope Francis. This change has led to discontent in the most traditionalist sectors of the Church.

?There is a backlash. It has been going on for 30 years, but now that we have a progressive pope, it?s getting stronger,? Faggioli, the historian, told me. The defenses of the Mortara kidnapping are part of what he described as ?a full-fledged culture war? inside the Church: ?They?re saying that what the Vatican has done in the past 30 years is wrong, and we should go back to Pius IX?s days, when the only thing that counted was the law of the Church.? Defending the Mortara abduction now, he added, is a ?way to attack, indirectly, the direction that the Church has taken.? Other progressive Catholics have expressed a similar interpretation in recent days.

It?s worth noting, however, that when some traditionalists defend the fact that their Church kidnapped a Jewish boy, they?re not just waxing nostalgic about the good old days when an almighty pope could do as he pleased. They?re making a larger theological argument?about divine doctrine trumping human morality, and about religion taking precedence over civil rights.

Both Cessario and Messori are quite explicit about this. ?Should putative civil liberties trump the requirements of faith?? Cessario writes. It?s a rhetorical question. In his book, Messori makes a similar point, encouraging a return to a Katholischeweltanschauung, or Catholic worldview, in which the salvation of the soul is deemed more important than other concerns.

In their eyes, that?s what the Mortara case comes down to. Yes, taking a little boy from his parents is horrible. Yes, it goes against all our moral intuitions as human beings. But Pius IX was answering to a higher moral authority, one rooted in Catholic doctrine. And that doctrine obliged him to save Edgardo?s soul. It was, Messori said, a painful decision: ?Pius was aware of the drama that he was inflicting, but he had no choice.?

Not every traditionalist subscribes to the view that kidnapping a baptized Jewish boy is commendable. Many cringe at the idea; for instance, Catholic traditionalist scholar Joseph Shaw insisted that the Mortara kidnapping is ?one of the most indefensible actions by any pope of modern times.? Traditionalism is a wide galaxy of conservative Catholics that encompasses those who would go so far as to repeal Vatican II as well as those who simply wish that Francis were a bit more cautious. But the Mortara case highlights a belief that is dear to many of them: Revealed doctrine must be upheld even when it conflicts with what some would call ?universal human values.?

As Francis softens the Church?s stance on homosexuality, remarriage after divorce, and other issues, some traditionalists are discomfited by an approach they describe as anthropocentrism?putting secularly-derived human values, as opposed to transcendent values, first. They see the Church as dramatically changing its position, from demanding that human beings adapt to its teaching, to adapting its teaching to human values.

?There?s always a tension between Catholic and secular morality,? Dan Hitchens, a deputy editor at the Catholic Herald, told me. Many Catholics, he said, ?are increasingly skeptical about the ideal of a neutral, secular authority. Partly this is because of recent experience.? He cited, as an example, a new Canadian government decision stipulating that ?to receive certain kinds of government funding, churches have to sign up to respect ?individual human rights.? But as of last month, these rights turn out to include abortion.?

The notion that there?s an intrinsic tension between religious morality and secular morality has historically convinced some European nations that keeping organized religion out of the public realm is a prerequisite for democracy. This is visible not only in France?s laïcité, a strict flavor of secularism, but also in Italy?s recent history. When the modern Italian state was born, only three years after the Mortara case, Italian nationalists openly opposed the Vatican and clashed with papal troops. Pius IX reacted by forbidding practicing Catholics from voting in the country?s elections. The voting ban, however, was revoked in 1919. Although some understand Church ethics to be immutable, in practice, that hasn?t been the case. Throughout its history, the Church has always tried to strike a balance between its moral system and the dominant moral systems of the time.

The Church and its followers are still trying, as the recent Mortara flare-up shows. Even those who slam the defenders of the kidnapping admit that there?s a non-trivial theological issue at the core of the debate. The Mortara case ?raises important issues,? Hitchens told me, ?but I?m not sure it raises them in the best context.? Conservative Christian thinker Rod Dreher, who called Cessario?s argument ?grotesque,? nevertheless writes: ?Theologically the Mortara case is a challenging question, because Christians really do believe that baptism is a permanent thing. We really do believe that Christianity is objectively true. Plus, modern people have to be very careful about judging the acts of people from much earlier ages by our standards today.?

It seems that in their desire to attack Francis?s approach, traditionalists are weaponizing an old narrative that, however objectionable, does contain a genuine theological issue that intellectually honest Catholics cannot easily dismiss. Perhaps it?s only by reckoning with this issue on the level of theology that they?ll be able to finally defuse the weapon.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 03:59 PM

I can't disagree with any of the many incidents you report. Unfortunately, almost all of them are true, no matter how many times you repeat them.

I do object to the statements from many of you that these criminals are examples of "good Christians."

That's where you pass into bigotry.

The Catholic Church has been laid low by this scandal, no doubt about it. We're suffering greatly because of it. It was our children who were victims of these crimes, and we are appalled by this criminal conduct. We don't deny the crimes that have been committed. We're trying to get beyond it and get back to things like working for justice for the poor and migrants.

Thank you for kicking us when we're down, you bigots.

It wasn't all that long ago when there were laws against Catholics in the U.S. and Europe, and particularly in England. Jesuits were outlawed in many parts of the world, and eventually even the Pope caved into political pressure and suppressed the Jesuits. Not very long ago at all, Catholics were a primary target of the Ku Klux Klan. Seems like many of you are yearning to carry on that tradition of bigotry.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 02:52 PM

"And another good "christian" apparently "
Don't start that or wee will have to mention the family that has been kept imprisoned by their devout Christian parents
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Jack Campin
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 02:44 PM

The people who taught you right from wrong were mostly women who were great people and great teachers, but they had no power.

The Smyllum case in Scotland (inquiry currently going on) is rather telling. Some of the current senior nuns are publicly admitting responsibility on behalf of their order - but pretty weakly, and the one thing they NEVR do is name any more names. They will unwillingly concede that the victims' testimony is true, but they will NOT provide information leading to the exposure of any abuse that hasn't already become public. They MUST know where the bodies are buried (and quite literally so in this case).

There is, now, nothing to stop elderly priests, nuns and monks from voluntarily walking into a police station to report what they know. None of them ever do so.

They DO have power in this situation - the power to testify. And they aren't using it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: mg
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 02:06 PM

No. The pope has no intention of doing the right thing in this area.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Senoufou
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 01:49 PM

Now why are UK sentences for paedophiles so lamentably short?
While I feel that Judge Aquilina said some rather strange things not all that appropriate in a Court of Law ("I have just signed your Death Warrant" for example) she certainly didn't hold back with his punishment.

In addition, that dire Presidents Club in London which used to hold men's evenings for charity at the Dorchester Hotel had been hurriedly disbanded after dozens of waitresses were groomed, groped and treated like meat. Great Ormond Street Hospital has even returned the charity money they were given by this bunch of rich entitled pervs.

Two great victories for women in one day. Yay!


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 12:59 PM

Finally a different story.

perhaps because the judge was a woman, the victims were female and the male church was not involved.


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