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BS: Another year, same old story

Raggytash 01 Jan 18 - 09:09 AM
Senoufou 01 Jan 18 - 12:30 PM
Raggytash 01 Jan 18 - 06:41 PM
Raggytash 01 Jan 18 - 06:43 PM
Senoufou 01 Jan 18 - 06:56 PM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Jan 18 - 04:51 AM
Nigel Parsons 02 Jan 18 - 05:18 AM
Raggytash 02 Jan 18 - 05:43 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Jan 18 - 07:02 AM
Senoufou 02 Jan 18 - 07:54 AM
CupOfTea 02 Jan 18 - 12:27 PM
Senoufou 02 Jan 18 - 01:16 PM
Jim Carroll 02 Jan 18 - 01:33 PM
Steve Shaw 02 Jan 18 - 03:04 PM
Senoufou 02 Jan 18 - 04:27 PM
Raggytash 02 Jan 18 - 05:03 PM
Steve Shaw 02 Jan 18 - 05:39 PM
Senoufou 02 Jan 18 - 05:42 PM
keberoxu 02 Jan 18 - 06:40 PM
Steve Shaw 02 Jan 18 - 07:50 PM
Joe Offer 02 Jan 18 - 11:00 PM
Jim Carroll 03 Jan 18 - 04:29 AM
Joe Offer 03 Jan 18 - 04:34 AM
Raggytash 03 Jan 18 - 04:50 AM
Steve Shaw 03 Jan 18 - 05:25 AM
Senoufou 03 Jan 18 - 05:35 AM
Jack Campin 03 Jan 18 - 05:47 AM
Steve Shaw 03 Jan 18 - 06:10 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Jan 18 - 06:15 AM
Raggytash 03 Jan 18 - 06:27 AM
Senoufou 03 Jan 18 - 06:34 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Jan 18 - 07:29 AM
Joe Offer 03 Jan 18 - 02:22 PM
Jim Carroll 03 Jan 18 - 02:56 PM
Iains 03 Jan 18 - 02:56 PM
Joe Offer 03 Jan 18 - 04:14 PM
Joe Offer 03 Jan 18 - 04:35 PM
Raggytash 03 Jan 18 - 05:08 PM
Dave the Gnome 03 Jan 18 - 05:30 PM
Steve Shaw 03 Jan 18 - 05:46 PM
Steve Shaw 03 Jan 18 - 06:35 PM
Joe Offer 03 Jan 18 - 06:54 PM
Joe Offer 03 Jan 18 - 07:10 PM
Steve Shaw 03 Jan 18 - 08:10 PM
Joe Offer 03 Jan 18 - 09:31 PM
Dave the Gnome 04 Jan 18 - 08:51 AM
Jack Campin 04 Jan 18 - 09:51 AM
Joe Offer 04 Jan 18 - 10:33 AM
Dave the Gnome 04 Jan 18 - 10:37 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Jan 18 - 10:51 AM
Mr Red 04 Jan 18 - 12:07 PM
Greg F. 04 Jan 18 - 06:31 PM
Steve Shaw 04 Jan 18 - 07:08 PM
Jim Carroll 04 Jan 18 - 07:33 PM
Steve Shaw 04 Jan 18 - 07:44 PM
Greg F. 04 Jan 18 - 08:20 PM
Donuel 04 Jan 18 - 09:32 PM
Joe Offer 05 Jan 18 - 12:06 AM
Mr Red 05 Jan 18 - 04:07 AM
Jim Carroll 05 Jan 18 - 04:35 AM
Joe Offer 05 Jan 18 - 04:46 AM
Dave the Gnome 05 Jan 18 - 04:54 AM
Jim Carroll 05 Jan 18 - 07:34 AM
Nigel Parsons 05 Jan 18 - 07:55 AM
Steve Shaw 05 Jan 18 - 08:12 AM
Nigel Parsons 05 Jan 18 - 08:29 AM
Jim Carroll 05 Jan 18 - 09:02 AM
Jack Campin 05 Jan 18 - 09:08 AM
Dave the Gnome 05 Jan 18 - 09:13 AM
Senoufou 05 Jan 18 - 09:17 AM
Donuel 05 Jan 18 - 09:43 AM
Donuel 05 Jan 18 - 09:55 AM
Steve Shaw 05 Jan 18 - 10:54 AM
keberoxu 07 Jan 18 - 04:45 PM
Steve Shaw 07 Jan 18 - 05:33 PM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Jan 18 - 01:31 PM
punkfolkrocker 08 Jan 18 - 02:19 PM
Raggytash 08 Jan 18 - 03:31 PM
Steve Shaw 08 Jan 18 - 03:36 PM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Jan 18 - 04:50 AM
Steve Shaw 09 Jan 18 - 05:01 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Jan 18 - 05:27 AM
Steve Shaw 09 Jan 18 - 06:03 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Jan 18 - 08:45 AM
Steve Shaw 09 Jan 18 - 08:50 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Jan 18 - 10:21 AM
Raggytash 09 Jan 18 - 10:29 AM
Jack Campin 09 Jan 18 - 10:36 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Jan 18 - 10:43 AM
Nigel Parsons 09 Jan 18 - 11:03 AM
Raggytash 09 Jan 18 - 11:09 AM
Steve Shaw 09 Jan 18 - 11:25 AM
Steve Shaw 09 Jan 18 - 11:33 AM
keberoxu 09 Jan 18 - 12:25 PM
Raggytash 09 Jan 18 - 12:47 PM
keberoxu 09 Jan 18 - 01:33 PM
Jack Campin 09 Jan 18 - 02:36 PM
Big Al Whittle 09 Jan 18 - 11:06 PM
Mr Red 10 Jan 18 - 04:01 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Jan 18 - 04:27 AM
Steve Shaw 10 Jan 18 - 06:32 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Jan 18 - 09:44 AM
Steve Shaw 10 Jan 18 - 09:46 AM
Steve Shaw 10 Jan 18 - 09:47 AM
Raggytash 10 Jan 18 - 10:00 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Jan 18 - 10:20 AM
Raggytash 10 Jan 18 - 10:26 AM
Dave the Gnome 10 Jan 18 - 10:27 AM
punkfolkrocker 10 Jan 18 - 10:52 AM
Steve Shaw 10 Jan 18 - 11:38 AM
keberoxu 10 Jan 18 - 11:48 AM
Raggytash 10 Jan 18 - 11:55 AM
Raggytash 10 Jan 18 - 11:56 AM
keberoxu 10 Jan 18 - 12:04 PM
Steve Shaw 10 Jan 18 - 12:23 PM
Steve Shaw 10 Jan 18 - 12:42 PM
keberoxu 10 Jan 18 - 01:21 PM
Greg F. 10 Jan 18 - 02:38 PM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Jan 18 - 04:58 AM
Mr Red 11 Jan 18 - 04:58 AM
Steve Shaw 11 Jan 18 - 06:31 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Jan 18 - 06:35 AM
keberoxu 13 Jan 18 - 04:18 PM
Jim Carroll 15 Jan 18 - 05:32 AM
mg 16 Jan 18 - 02:46 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Jan 18 - 03:25 AM
keberoxu 16 Jan 18 - 11:19 AM
keberoxu 17 Jan 18 - 10:21 AM
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Subject: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 Jan 18 - 09:09 AM

Another year and the same old story of abuse. The link is to todays Guardian newspaper.


Yet more abuse


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Senoufou
Date: 01 Jan 18 - 12:30 PM

Oh my goodness Raggytash! My Irish cousin's three young Roman Catholic sons (all boys) lived in Ealing and attended both those schools!! This would have been in the early sixties up until the early seventies. The youngest tragically committed suicide, but we never discovered why. He was fifteen. I'm now wondering if it was connected to abuse he may have suffered? His parents are now deceased, and I'm not in contact with his two surviving brothers. His funeral was conducted in Ealing Abbey, and my parents attended.
I can't understand how any person (never mind a man in Benedictine Holy Orders) could beat and sexually abuse young boys and get away with it. Rumours must have abounded and his colleagues must have been complicit.
One can only admire the victim (called 'Peter') for his courage in coming forward and telling about what went on.
My cousin's husband was a doctor, and the poor lad stole drugs from his father's briefcase with which to end his life. It was absolutely horrendous.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 Jan 18 - 06:41 PM

I don't really know how to respond to you Senoufou.

The damage that those "caring" people did to innocents is beyond my comprehension.

If, as the religion they professed to believe in, castigates sinners, they will probably burn in hell for eternity.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 Jan 18 - 06:43 PM

PS It's good to see you back!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Senoufou
Date: 01 Jan 18 - 06:56 PM

I've e mailed my sister, who being younger may have some memories about the events. (I'd left home for University long before it all happened)
I think rotting in Hell is probably too good for these abusers. And the damage they caused will last lifelong in their victims' psychology.
Thank goodness the Kosovans extradited the fiend. 'Father Laurence' indeed!
I think I mentioned long ago on a similar thread that a Catholic priest, Father Anthony McSweeney, blessed me several times by laying his hand on my head when I used to attend Mass in his Parish in Norwich, although an Anglican. He was convicted of long-term abuse of boys in a children's home, and of being a member of a paedophile ring in West London. One wonders if one can trust anybody...


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jan 18 - 04:51 AM

How lovely to see your name in a thread again Senoufou.
Happy New Year to you and your hubby.

Rag, child abuse is a despicable crime. No-one here defends it.
Do you really need to start another thread whenever one kind of it hits the headlines again?

Is there anything more to be said here that has not been said?


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 02 Jan 18 - 05:18 AM

Keith,
While I agree that we don't really need more of these threads, it does appear that it has given Senoufou an insight into family problems which she would not otherwise have.
On this occasion perhaps the ends justify the means, as regards opening a new thread.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Raggytash
Date: 02 Jan 18 - 05:43 AM

Nigel, I think some people would rather these matters were "swept under the carpet". It is because of such views that these abuses continue to occur. Today, tomorrow, next week, next month ........


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jan 18 - 07:02 AM

Nigel, I think some people would rather these matters were "swept under the carpet"

I do not and I am sure no-one else here does, but we have had endless threads devoted to clerical abuse, while all other kinds of child abuse are ignored.

Everyone who wants to express a view on clerical abuse must have done so by now.
Is there anything more to say?

I am happy if this thread has been of personal interest to Senoufou, but that is pure serendipity.
Perhaps this time, as Nigel says, the end for Senoufou may justify Rag's questionable means.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Senoufou
Date: 02 Jan 18 - 07:54 AM

While I agree that the subject has been extensively debated, here and elsewhere, it was the fact that the abuse took place at St Benedict's School that caused me to comment. I had no idea that this had occurred, and am grateful to Raggytash for having posted the article.

My sister hasn't yet replied to my enquiry - she's got the 'flu poor soul, so she's probably tucked up in bed.

I'm being very tentative about posting again on Mudcat, not wanting to become embroiled in unpleasant arguments. But thank you so much for the good wishes and New Year greetings.
Kindest regards to all, and a Very Happy New Year everybody!


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: CupOfTea
Date: 02 Jan 18 - 12:27 PM

Silver lining - hearing from the lovely heart of Senoufou again - a much missed graceful voice.

Getting information about abuse out like this is very much like the #metoo movement, and what the general response to it amounts to is going to be important.
Does it result in a less stigmatized future for those who report abuse, making it easier to stop someone before they make a life career of abuse?
Does it result in accusations being weaponized to deamonize persons & institutions?
Does it create an social environment where scrutiny of the facts comes before instant condemnation?
How are victims best helped to find emotional health for the rest of their lives?

That higher-ups in the Catholic Church can harbor known abusers is beyond wrong, and has driven more people away from the comfort of religion than if they'd been upfront, defrocked and prosecuted each case. In my own diocese, this was dealt with a bit better than some - I was shocked that the sweet young priest who'd celebrated my wedding was one of those who was removed from the priesthood for abuse.

I grieve for all the victims, including those innocent, holy, and loving priests and teachers who care for children, but must be ever vigilant that they never be alone with one, must be cautious about hugs, be denied the kind of comforting touch that should be natural.

Joanne in Cleveland


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Senoufou
Date: 02 Jan 18 - 01:16 PM

Ah Joanne, you're quite correct in all your questions - it is indeed a very complex and troubling state of affairs, and the repercussions are huge. There can be over-reactions, but one can well understand them.

My husband is a school cleaner, and he has to be extremely careful when cleaning the vast secondary school where he works. He always locks the toilet blocks from the inside when he's in there cleaning, so that no pupils can enter. He never ever speaks to pupils except a short nod of the head in the corridors. He gets the female Team Leader to come and re-open a classroom if a pupil has forgotten something. It's sad, but entirely appropriate nowadays.

My sister has got in touch, and says my cousin's boys were not boarders at St Benedict's, and as day-pupils would 'probably' not have been molested. The suicide of the youngest has never been explained, and remains a mystery to this day.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jan 18 - 01:33 PM

Why is a troll being allowed to stop a discussion on a subject that will probably outlive most of us here
We haven't begun to learn what happened in denominations other than the Catholic Church
The situation in the North of Ireland has hardly been scratched yet
Proper acknowledgement and compensation for all victims has yet to be arrived at
Then the question of why these thing happened will need to be tackled
I can see why those describing themselves as Church people need this to go away
Not going to happen, I'm afraid
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Jan 18 - 03:04 PM

We should not stop targeting clerics, for one very simple reason.

Of all the people in the world who can shield their nefarious sexual predilections behind their positions of trust and authority and their almost untouchable sheen of holiness, it's men of the cloth. In this awful world of sexual abuse, they epitomise the most how it is done most effectively, most undetectably and most damagingly (because it goes on, unseen, for so long). The more we talk about it, the more victims are likely to acquire the bravery to come forward. And that's what decent people should want. If you tell us you've heard enough of it and would rather move on, you're complicit. Simple as that.

One fine day we'll see the big religions being honest, promptly open and fully apologetic for what goes on in their ranks. While they are being shifty, evasive, dilatory and in denial about it, we'll carry on about it, and that is precisely how it should be.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Senoufou
Date: 02 Jan 18 - 04:27 PM

I agree Steve. Clerics have an excellent smoke-screen for their activities and are often seen as immune from any scrutiny because, as you say, they're regarded as holy and sacred. They also, sadly, have access to opportunities in which to abuse. (Children's homes, Church schools, choirboys, Sunday schools, youth clubs and so on)

It's not valid to point to celibacy as a cause, which is often mooted, because married clergy of the Anglican/Protestant persuasion have been charged with abuse offences too.

The important thing about modern times is that child victims feel able to come forward and tell about the attacks, and are believed. This applies to adult rape victims (of both sexes) too, but that is a whole other issue.
And we all need to be vigilant.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Raggytash
Date: 02 Jan 18 - 05:03 PM

Exactly my reason for posting.

Sadly some say there has been more than enough coverage.

Abuse will continue unabated if coverage is not constant, we all have a responsibility to guard the vulnerable in our society.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Jan 18 - 05:39 PM

Not saying for a single second that we shouldn't also shine the spotlight on non-clerical abuse, nor should we smear tbe whole of religion (even though I'm far from being religion's number one fan and that I recognise that religion is in danger of institutionalising the abuse via its inaction, inappropriate responses and denial). But Senoufou and Raggytash are making the case very well. Happy new year, Senoufou, by the way. Roll yer sleeves up, girl!


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Senoufou
Date: 02 Jan 18 - 05:42 PM

Heh heh Steve! Happy New Year to you too!


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: keberoxu
Date: 02 Jan 18 - 06:40 PM

Moreover, I don't see why this thread has to be limited to the atrocities
in the clergy / religious hierarchy.
The headlines and reports of late, after all, are not so limited --
abuse everywhere and by everybody is making news, now.

The author who comes to mind is Andrew Vachss,
whose fiction works -- a long list of novels now --
are informed by his work with abuse of children.
He was interviewed by, I think, New York magazine, years ago, and remarked:
"My problem is not exaggerating in what I write [publish].
My problem is toning it down so that people will believe it."


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Jan 18 - 07:50 PM

We know that the abuse is by no means limited to the clergy, and we know that most clergy are very decent, upright people. The particular concern with the clergy is that they are trusted and regarded as guardians of morality more than almost anyone else (at least, before Joe goes for my jugular, they don't half talk about it from the pulpit a lot). There's no doubt that their institutions have, by dint of denial and inaction, perpetuated the misery endured by thousands of victims. How bad is that. Yes there are thousands of victims within families and within institutions that are supposedly there to protect children, and there are adult victims in Hollywood, etc., the thing universally in common being that the vulnerable are exploited sexually by adults in positions of power. But two things set the religions apart, first, that sexual abuse is, on the face of it, a terrible sin that we would least expect of the clergy of all people, and second, that the abusers are seen to be able to hide behind their institution. That last point is a very serious one and it's one that the religion mostly in question has had serious difficulty in coming to terms with. I say this with some regret in that I was brought up in that religion, taught for seven years by priests and brothers, and, despite all its absurdities that I now see, I saw nothing of this kind of abuse and I acknowledge freely that, despite their delusions, they generally had our best interests at heart. There ya go. No black and white!


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Joe Offer
Date: 02 Jan 18 - 11:00 PM

Damn! Here I was, sizing Steve up for a bullseye on his jugular, and he goes and makes a reasonable statement. Golly, what am I to do now?

Well, I could question Raggytash. He titles the thread, "Another year, same old story." I might propose that the title should be "Another year, same thirty-year-old story." That's the problem with most of these threads. The offenses are not new, and present no evidence of ongoing misconduct. But yet, I have less confidence in the current generation of priests, than I have in those who were ordained with my seminary classmates forty-five years ago. Those who were ordained 40-50 years ago, were "Vatican II priests." Many of them at least tried to fit into the real world. Those who were ordained during the era of John Paul II are a different breed. John Paul II was Pope from 1978 to 2005, but I think his anti-progressive influence is still stronger than the attempts of Pope Francis to bring back the progressive and generous spirit of Vatican II. The John Paul II priests have brought forth a new clericalism, and many of them seem to be in love with all the pomp and circumstance, and with their power and popularity. They seem to have a weakness for teenage girls - I'm not sure that's an improvement over earlier priests' preference for teenage boys. I will say, however, that dioceses are now far less tolerant of "sexual indiscretions" by priests. Most dioceses in the U.S. have "no tolerance" rules, and I think that's becoming the standard throughout the world. Priests tell me that those rules can often be unfair and unreasonable, but dioceses are running scared now and tend to honor even the most unreasonable complaints. So, priests tend to feel suspect simply because they are priests. I don't think I'd like to live like that - to be in a position where I'm automatically suspect, even though I may never have done anything wrong.

Churches are in a difficult position. Of all employers, churches seem to be the ones most likely to be held liable for the sexual indiscretions of their employees, because their clerical employees are held to be acting in the name of their employer 24 hours a day. Lots of other employers have employees who commit sexual offenses, but those employers are far less likely to be held liable for the offenses of their employees. That may be changing in the wake of the offenses of Harvey Weinstein and so many others. It breaks my heart that even Garrison Keillor has met his downfall in this. As a result of Keillor's sins, all the memorable performances on his program will disappear - and that includes a great number of really significant performances by folk musicians.

But that's the deal with all this. The conduct of these sexual predators is truly deplorable - but in the response, the truly good efforts of so many innocent people are brought down with them. I wish there were another way to respond, a way that doesn't affect so many innocent people.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jan 18 - 04:29 AM

"Another year, same thirty-year-old story."
The first recorded reference to clerical abuse was in Medieval times around the time The Book of Kells was being written
Maybe you are only referring to the widespread exposure of clerical abuse Joe
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Jan 18 - 04:34 AM

Well, yes, Jim, it's an old, old story with many chapters. But Raggytash is stuck on the same chapter, over and over again. The current chapter is the Weinstein chapter. No doubt, there will be many more chapters.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Raggytash
Date: 03 Jan 18 - 04:50 AM

Au contraire Joe, I was highlighting yet another case that was reported in the newspapers 2 days ago.

Whether that abuse happened the week before or a decade before or fifty years before matters not one iota.

The fact remains that a member of the clergy, who we are supposed to look to for guidance in our lives, has abused (in this case) young boys.

We cannot sweep it under the carpet and pretend it hasn't happened and with reference to your statement that the churches are held liable for these "sexual indiscretions" (now that's an interesting way to put it) more than other employers that is pure nonsense.

Any other employer with responsibility for the young would dismiss the perpetrator ........ instantly.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jan 18 - 05:25 AM

"Of all employers, churches seem to be the ones most likely to be held liable for the sexual indiscretions of their employees, because their clerical employees are held to be acting in the name of their employer 24 hours a day. Lots of other employers have employees who commit sexual offenses, but those employers are far less likely to be held liable for the offenses of their employees."

There's a case in the news here in Cornwall of a male teacher who was sending inappropriate, sexually-charged texts to pupils and viewing pornography that a pupil had directed him to. There was no alleged sexual physical contact. He has been outed, named, his photo published everywhere in the media (you'll find him on the BBC website if you look) and he's been banned from teaching for life. That's the way to do it. The teaching profession in general, in consequence, remains untainted.

So, Joe, who's responsible, do you think, if priests in general feel that they are always under suspicion, whereas teachers don't? It's not fair - but it's not us to blame, is it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Senoufou
Date: 03 Jan 18 - 05:35 AM

I think any other type of employer would involve the Police first, then after conviction and serving a prison sentence, the perpetrator would never work again. They would be on the Sex Offenders' Register, and in any case, who with any moral compass at all would employ a rapist/paedophile?

I watched a most interesting TV programme about sex offenders in an American prison, and it was obvious that they were not deemed by their psychologists to have 'overcome' their tendencies. They continued to maintain that their victims 'enjoyed' or 'sought' the abuse, and many of them surreptitiously obtained images etc while incarcerated, with which to continue their perversions.

The religious organisations however, as everyone knows, merely moved an offender to a different geographical location, and did not involve the Police at all. The 'Father' Tony McSweeney chap I met in Norwich had already spent much time indulging his evil pleasures in a West London children's home, before being moved to a Norwich parish. I suppose his superiors may have hoped for his Redemption, but they were risking the well-being of young children by giving him the benefit of the doubt. That can never be condoned.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Jack Campin
Date: 03 Jan 18 - 05:47 AM

I think any other type of employer would involve the Police first, then after conviction and serving a prison sentence, the perpetrator would never work again.

If it was the military, the guy would be declared a hero and anybody questioning the honour would be monstered by the tabloids as a terrorist sympathizer.

Here's a different kind of Church-sanctioned abuse. What kind of an excuse for a human being would behave like this?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-42085065


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jan 18 - 06:10 AM

The trouble with stories like that, which is a story of a strangely inadequate man bereft of normal human empathy, is that it's hard to take lessons from it. True, the Church authorities did what we've come to expect, sweep embarrassment under the carpet and prioritise that over the wellbeing of the victim (which she became, but didn't need to be). I'd like to know how that's supposed to chime with the teachings of the man who founded the religion in question. Whether it's symptomatic of a deep institutional sickness is hard to say. But there are too many stories of inhuman behaviour and too many cover-ups. I don't doubt that many priests do many good things. I witnessed a lot of that myself. But the Church has allowed itself to gain such a rotten reputation with regard to unaddressed abuse by people in positions of power that the evil trumps everything and the good, as Shakespeare might have put it, will be interred with its bones.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jan 18 - 06:15 AM

The Irish Government has begun to prepare legislation which will remove the demand by Catholic schools to produce a baptismal certificate as a condition of acceptance - a number of cases have already been highlighted in areas with a high shortage of school places.
The Bishops have announced that any such moves will be met by a barrage of legal challenges.
So an institution with a track record of facilitating child abuse and protecting child abusers will now fight tooth-and nail to maintain access to childern
Is there not something a little obscene (and obvious) about this?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Raggytash
Date: 03 Jan 18 - 06:27 AM

Surely Jim that is so only Catholic children will attend their schools, can't have them mixing with Protestants, Buddist, Baptist and especially Atheists.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Senoufou
Date: 03 Jan 18 - 06:34 AM

The story posted by Jack is very sad indeed, describing rejection rather than active sexual abuse. However it does show how inhumane behaviour can be sanctioned by religious bodies, with no regard to the natural needs/suffering of an offspring - not a very 'Christian' approach, as Steve so rightly states. It also demonstrates the immense secrecy employed by them to cover up situations which they cannot sanction or handle correctly.

I personally think that all religious bodies of every persuasion (including Muslim) should be subject to far more scrutiny than they are at present. They should not be seen as sacrosanct or above inspection. And they should all of course abide by the Laws of our land.

I am a Christian, have been a schoolteacher and have visited offenders in many prisons. I am married to a Muslim, and have made the acquaintance of many nuns and religious sisters from both Roman Catholic and Anglican Orders. Over many decades I have been able to form opinions and see for myself the mindsets of the various types of people I have met. People are complex and the reasons for their behaviours are complex too. But above all, the young and the vulnerable must be protected at all costs, even if this means intrusive, fearless and swingeing scrutiny of all organisations in our society. This isn't 'persecution' but simple safeguarding.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jan 18 - 07:29 AM

"Surely Jim that is so only Catholic children will attend their schools,"
Basically it is so the church can retain their grip on the minds of the children - nothing to do with mixture
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Jan 18 - 02:22 PM

Ah, yes, the old Jim Carroll brainwashing theory. Yes, Jim, it IS likely that teachers may at times express thinking that is not to your liking. But is every idea expressed in school brainwashing, if it does not meet the Jim Carroll imprimatur? I think it's important that we teach children critical thinking, so they can sort things out for themselves. Whether we like it or not, our children will be exposed to unacceptable thinking all their lives. Shielding them from such thoughts would cause greater harm.
I think it's far more important to emphasize critical thinking in education, like the Jesuits do (not that Jim will believe that, since he's such a firm believer in agitprop).
-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jan 18 - 02:56 PM

"Ah, yes, the old Jim Carroll brainwashing theory."
Not mine Joe - the Jesuits summed it up perfectly
"Give me a child until he is seven and I will give you the man"
Out of the horses mouth, you might say
You seem to forget than most of my family were victims of this
Doesn't matter anyway - no establishment that had behaved as the Church has towards children would be allowed a million miles near them
The bishops seem to believe their church has been granted a special dispensation from someone or somewhere
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Iains
Date: 03 Jan 18 - 02:56 PM

Well stated Joe. I have no complaints about the education I received from Jesuits. Quite the reverse in fact.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Jan 18 - 04:14 PM

Oh, and let me call it to your attention that Raggytash reported the 1972-1983 offenses of ex-priest Laurence Soper in this thread (click) on 10 August 2017. So, yeah, it's another year, and Raggytash is still starting threads to repeat the same old story, over and over again.

I don't deny the severity and appalling frequency of the offenses. It's all true, and it's a horrible truth. One could certainly call it an atrocity, this widespread physical and sexual abuse of children by priests and the subsequent coverup by bishops. But this atrocity peaked a generation ago, and the offenses have dwindled dramatically since dioceses worldwide instituted strict controls in the years since the U.S. bishops instituted controls in 2002.

But yet, Raggytash and Jim Carroll and Steve Shaw continue to pour shame on Catholics for these offenses that happened years ago. Of course they're right, since these offenses were indeed horrible. But I wonder if that incessant shaming for thirty-year-old offenses has any constructive effect. And what's the reason for their obsessive shaming of Catholics? Why don't they put as much effort into shaming all the other groups who have to bear the shame of past atrocities?

Almost every group must bear the shame of some sort of atrocity committed in its history. The primary American atrocity is racism - against indigenous people, against the black descendants of slaves, against immigrants - much of that "original sin" of racism in the U.S. is in the past, but much of it continues and may continue forevermore. Germany's "original sin" is fascism and multi-faceted genocide, and Germany will bear the shame of that atrocity forever. Britain's "original sin" is imperialism, an atrocity that continues to have dire consequences in the irreparable damage it did to indigenous cultures all over the world.

So, why aren't there threads posted once or twice every month to shame the Americas and the British and the Germans? For most of you, it's safe for you to pour shame on Catholics, because most of you aren't Catholic (or are no longer Catholic). And many of you pour similar shame on Jews for the offenses of the government of Israel.

It's the same with all atrocities - and with all crime, for that matter. If the offenses are committed by members of other groups, we humans tend to pour shame on those other groups for offenses committed by (usually) minorities within those groups. That way, we can feel smugly superior to "those people" and watch gleefully as they wallow in their shame.

Don't get me wrong. The sex crimes by Catholic priests and bishops were horrible, and we Catholics are both ashamed and outraged by those crimes committed against our children. And although we and our children were victims, we must bear the shame (and cost) of the offenses committed years ago by priests and bishops who are now mostly dead or elderly.

But how long will this shaming last? Yes, we Catholics must bear the shame of these atrocities, but how much external shaming is sufficient? And where is the dividing line between appropriate shaming, and bigotry?

Raggytash, you've started so many threads to shame Catholics, so it's obvious that you're very adept at this shame game. Why don't you start threads shaming some of the groups you identify with? Surely, there must be some skeletons in your closet, too.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Jan 18 - 04:35 PM

Once again, Jim Carroll says:
    Not mine Joe - the Jesuits summed it up perfectly
    "Give me a child until he is seven and I will give you the man"

Of course, that's not what the Jesuits mean. That's how Jim Carroll twists their meaning to fit his own prejudices. The Jesuits have always had high standards for education, standards that have always emphasized the priority of critical thinking. They have often been in trouble with church authorities through the centuries for their emphasis on critical thinking and excellence in education and on respect for indigenous cultures. They were suppressed by various European monarchs through the 18th century, and by the Pope from 1773-1815. And now we have a Jesuit Pope, and many right-wing Catholics are not happy with that at all.

On occasion, I have found fault with the Jesuits for their frequent alliances with the elite and the wealthy and the powerful. But for the most part, Jesuit education has always been excellent and has emphasized intellectual freedom. And in the last half-century, the Jesuits have far more often been allied with the poor and oppressed.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Raggytash
Date: 03 Jan 18 - 05:08 PM

Firstly Joe your statement "And many of you pour similar shame on Jews for the offenses of the government of Israel" is a downright lie. Full stop.

Secondly you state " Why don't you start threads shaming some of the groups you identify with? Surely, there must be some skeletons in your closet, too"

I was brought up as a catholic, by a staunch catholic Mother and attended catholic schools all the way through my infant, junior and senior schools. You have the audacity to tell me me I don't associate with this group !

In a previous post you had the temerity to say that "The offenses are not new, and present no evidence of ongoing misconduct" and that in recent years "They seem to have a weakness for teenage girls"

Is it any wonder, people like myself castigate the various religions when they are so proudly supported by people like yourself.

I have no desire to fall out with you personally but your continued excuses for the catholic church, in particular, cuts no ice with me and I would suggest several others.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jan 18 - 05:30 PM

You only need to look at the abuse Iains inflicts on everyone to know that the Jesuits teach scorn for anyone that disagrees with them. Unless of course he is either not a typical product of a Jesuit education else he is not one at all.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jan 18 - 05:46 PM

Well, Joe, the Catholic Church is a constant target for very good reason, whether you like it or not. A very common attempted getout on Mudcat is to try to dilute the accusations by bringing in all those other miscreants the world over. No-one denies it, Joe. Start threads on it if you like. You'll get takers. For better or worse, we tend to react to what happens to be topical, what's in the news. If the Catholic Church doesn't like being in the news all the time for all the wrong reasons, well the matter is entirely in its own hands. But because of the reluctant, shifty and dilatory nature of its responses so far, it'll take a lot longer than it should have taken to clear things up. That is not our fault.

I'm sure that those excellent Jesuit teachers taught critical thinking in geography, history, English and maths lessons. But over in those religious instruction lessons they taught you to accept, under pain of sin (not to speak of under a crucifix on the wall) mythology as truth. My teachers were the Salesians, who I believe were a little less stern than the Jesuits, and they certainly sowed that brand of confused messages. Been there, Joe. If you think I'm speaking out of date, let's hear you telling your supporter Iains that he's also out of date.

"I was taught by Jesuits and it didn't do me no 'arm..."

Yeah, right...


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jan 18 - 06:35 PM

By the way, Joe, while I take pleasure (frequently to your irritation, as we know) in pointing to the absurdities of all religions in general, no matter of what colour, I take no pleasure whatsoever in the self-inflicted plight of the Catholic Church over the long-running sex abuse scandals. You can check all my postings going back years on that. The decent thing is, not least for the sake of past, present and, hopefully not, future victims, to want this cleared up in a rapid, open, honest and contrite manner. I come from a solid Catholic family and my dad has been going to Sunday Mass for so many decades (over sixty to be precise!) at the same church that no-one would even begin to dare to sit in his spot in the pew. Heaven forfend. I still get on with him. I've always defended the right of anyone to believe what the dickens they like, as long as they don't try to force their beliefs on anyone else (especially children - credit me with consistency on that score if nothing else). I was educated at Catholic schools from four 'til eighteen, and you can see from my demeanour here what a fine, upstanding and morally-sound citizen it turned me into. So no black and white from me!

Er...


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Jan 18 - 06:54 PM

Well, no, I didn't really expect to achieve any understanding or tolerance.

So, Raggytash, when was the last time you went to church, if you claim to be associated with the Catholic Church? If you are a Catholic, then step forward and apologize and do penance and pay reparations for the misdeeds of your priests and bishops. I have never once heard a word of apology from you, and I highly doubt that you are paying anything toward the huge amount of reparations that are being paid to the victims of these crimes.

And what's so wrong with my saying that young Catholic priests seem to have a preference for teenage girls? At least in my diocese, the two young priests who went to prison recently were convicted of having sex with teenage girls. That seems to be a trend in many dioceses, for a number of reasons.

Raggytash, listen to me: I make no excuses for the sexual misconduct that went on in the Catholic Church and that continues to happen to a lesser extent - never in my life have I excused or denied it, although I do seek to understand it so I can help find a way to prevent it.

But somehow, it seems to be that there comes a point when the frequency of your oh-so-righteous shaming of Catholics becomes an act of bigotry. I think you passed that point long ago, and your obsession has become just plain bigotry.

This Soper thing is not the first time you have reported offending priests multiple times, each time as if it were something new.

You are obsessed, my friend. Why is that?

-Joe Offer-

And Steve Shaw, the Jesuit professors I have known, have always taught myth as myth, often much to the chagrin of many who think otherwise. The Jesuit philosophy of education has always been quite different from that of the Salesians, although I will admit that even the Jesuits have a fundamentalist wing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Jan 18 - 07:10 PM

Steve Shaw says:
    The decent thing is, not least for the sake of past, present and, hopefully not, future victims, to want this cleared up in a rapid, open, honest and contrite manner.
I have the same wish, Steve. To a great extent, I think that is finally happening. I screamed and shouted and jumped up and down and wrote letters until 2002, when the Catholic bishops in the U.S. finally enacted strict controls and began to enforce those controls and make reparations. Dioceses all over the world followed suit. What's happening now is mostly cleanup - payment of reparations claims and criminal procedures against those offenders who can be prosecuted. There are no more denials of the offenses that took place - nobody is denying the crimes committed by Soper and so many others. Now it's a matter of cleaning up the horrible aftermath of those offenses. Yes, some dioceses are fighting the million-dollar settlements assessed against them because they simply cannot afford to pay all that, but I think that will be settled eventually.

And yes, the Catholic Church will forever bear the shame of what happened in this terrible scandal. The powerful Catholic Church has been humbled, and I think that is a good thing. But when does it come to a point where the shaming from outside sources is too much? When do we get to the point where we humbly can go on with life and deal with all of the other pressing issues, like immigration and homelessness and racism and sexism and such? Despite its past offenses, the Catholic Church has also been a powerful voice in defense of refugees and the poor and oppressed. When can we be allowed to stop wallowing in shame and take steps to advocate for those in need?

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jan 18 - 08:10 PM

Rotten first post, Joe, very decent second one. The first of the two is rotten because it is so needlessly defensive. The second is grand because it confirms that you are among the true followers of the word of Jesus in that you are shouting out loud against wrongdoing and injustice. I said that the dilatory and reluctant nature of the response of the Church to sex abuse was not only very damaging in an ongoing way to present victims of that abuse but was also what makes the reparations, in that they exist, so drawn out and so hard for us to digest. If your Church is really following the teachings of Christ, then it would go through hell and high water to stop the abuse, and punish the abusers, right here and right now. That's what the teachings of Jesus (don't push me...!) indicate to me. My understanding of them is nowhere near as nuanced as yours, but I do recall something about doing right by the least of the people and by little children. Misused positions of power in order to carry out abuse seems to me to be the polar opposite of that. I kinda like Jesus, mostly, even though he was probably a committee... And he's my Jesus, just as much as he's yours!


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Jan 18 - 09:31 PM

Steve Shaw says: If your Church is really following the teachings of Christ, then it would go through hell and high water to stop the abuse, and punish the abusers, right here and right now.

Well, I think the bishops ARE taking strong and immediate action to stop the abuse and punish the abuses; and also to offer treatment and compensation and apology to victims. However, I think they're doing it mostly because of fear of further lawsuits and claims, and not because they are following the teachings of Christ.

But my complaint about the proliferation of these threads still stands. I think that every Catholic bears the burden of shame for this scandal, and I think they know it. There's no doubt in my mind that the Catholic Church has been humbled, and rightfully so - and whatever it does in the future, it must do with humility.

But what then? How do we deal with the sins of the past? Must we be burdened by them forevermore? Isn't there a point where outside people recognize that the organization has been brought down and has paid the price, and now it's time to go on? In these endless discussions, Mudcatter have hurled everything in their barrage of blame, back to the 15th century Inquisition and before, and they have continued this onslaught for almost 20 years in threads that appear at least once a month. What is the constructive effect of such a flood of shaming?

As a Catholic, I bear the shame of all the wrongdoing of my Catholic Church, and there is something right in my having to acknowledge that shame. As an American, I bear the shame for another long list of misdeeds by my country - and I think that it's right that I bear that blame, too.

But where does it go from there? How does this whole puzzle of blame fit together. And from that humbled position of shame, how do we go forward?

All of us humans have shame to bear. How do we deal with it? And perhaps more importantly, how do we deal with the shame that others have to bear - attack them for it?

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Jan 18 - 08:51 AM

Must we be burdened by them forevermore? Isn't there a point where outside people recognize that the organization has been brought down and has paid the price, and now it's time to go on?

No, I don't think so, Joe. It has to be a forevermore thing to help prevent it happening again. Sins of a far greater scale were performed by the Nazis (queue Godwins law...) so the world must be reminded of that constantly lest it happen again. Yet we are still seeing an upsurge of national socialism here in the UK, in Europe and in the USA. If we drop the reminders of what happened in the past people will forget and it will happen all over again. In my opinion that is.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Jack Campin
Date: 04 Jan 18 - 09:51 AM

Why don't you start threads shaming some of the groups you identify with? Surely, there must be some skeletons in your closet, too

That kind of rhetorical stunt is called "what-about-ery" in Northern Ireland (which saw quite a lot of it in the period when paramilitaries were exchanging atrocities).

It's a disgusting abuse of the human capacity for moral reasoning.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Joe Offer
Date: 04 Jan 18 - 10:33 AM

I don't think so, check Jack. This Thread is about a thirty-year-old series of offenses that Raggytash had already reported last August. No new misconduct, No new insights, No new anything.
And the fact of the matter is that physical and sexual child abuse happens everywhere, all the time. Placing emphasis on events that happened 30 years ago, tends to help us forget That which is happening right now. We all know child abusers, and most of those abusers are not members of the clergy. Child abuse is a horrible problem, And we must come to an understanding of it. This constant shaming of others, only serves to hide the blame that we all must bear.

Joe


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Jan 18 - 10:37 AM

I think we must agree to disagree on that then, Joe. Those who ignore the past are destined to repeat it in my opinion.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jan 18 - 10:51 AM

"Of course, that's not what the Jesuits mean."
That is how it is taken and basically, that's the way it is - or was, till thee chi rape scandal undermined the power of the church
"But yet, Raggytash and Jim Carroll and Steve Shaw continue to pour shame on Catholics"
Please to not stoop to untruths Joe - these are criticisms of the behaviour of the Church - it has nothing whatever to do with "Catholics" or even their beliefs
If it had , Id be throwing stones though most of my relatives and neighbours windows.
Are you really seeking "understanding and tolerance" for the way these people behaved given the way many churchmen are still behaving towards the victim of these crimes?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Mr Red
Date: 04 Jan 18 - 12:07 PM

Not just Catholics. When I mention the Mennonites to a Canadian friend, he wrinkles his nose and sighs, murmuring "child abuse".

Religion is a force for good, when it is good. But, sadly, it is administered by humans. That is it's weakness.

Now if God were properly in charge - she would set it right!


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Jan 18 - 06:31 PM

Religion is a force for good,

Absolutely! As proof, I give you Roy Moore & Donald Trump.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Jan 18 - 07:08 PM

Religion has never been a force for good. Let's not dwell on persecutions visited on one religious group by another down the millennia, on bigotry, on institutional antisemitism by the Catholic Church down the centuries, on papal misrule and corruption in the Renaissance, on acquiescence in the Holocaust, on institutionalised sexual exploitation of children, on the Christian Brothers, on the Magdalen Laundries, on Mother Teresa's vile exploitation of the poorest and most vulnerable...

Yes, religions teach (but do not necessarily practise) morality. I'm a critical friend of the committee known as Jesus myself. But there's a rather wicked assumption, in the face of all this, underlying the assertion that religion is a force for good. It's that we wouldn't be good unless we had religion to make us good. That is religion's biggest arrogance and its biggest conceit, and it simply isn't true. In microcosm apropos of that, I went to the funeral of a close relative years ago. The service was religious because the rest of his family was religious. The presiding vicar declared that he'd been such a good, upstanding man because of his Christian upbringing. We knew better. He certainly was a very fine, upstanding man, one of the best I've ever known and who we all revered for his kindness, generosity, good humour and sense of justice. But the only time he'd been near a church in fifty years was when he was dragged, kicking and screaming almost, to weddings and funerals. Like I said, microcosm. Revealing nonetheless.

It's impossible to argue that we'd be better off without religion because we never get a chance to try it. But it is possible to argue that the glorious reality of the world is a damn sight more magical that the abject hocus-pocus peddled by religion's control freaks.

Not going to go down well, this, is it...


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jan 18 - 07:33 PM

"Absolutely! As proof, I give you Roy Moore & Donald Trump."
Sorry lads - ou fellers really need to separate religion from how it is used and abused
I have not need for either, but I have a great warmth for the real Christians' who accept it as a guide for life rather than a meaningless dogma
Two songs that have followed me through my life were This one of Woodie's and THIS by Ewan (just spotted my photograph on this clip - whee!!)
After fid=fty years I still get an enormous buzz out of singing Ewan's, especially to locals here - I'd sing Woodie's if I sang American songs
The greatest betrayal of all the events has been of true believers - that is shown by the numbers now leaving the church
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Jan 18 - 07:44 PM

Come on, Jim, sing Woody's songs! I knew which one it was going to be before I even clicked.

Taking the message of Jesus as a guide for living is fine, it can't be gainsaid. But a good life can equally well be lived without it, or even in spite of it. I can ride my bike without stabilisers and I can walk with head held high without crutches. Christianity has us all as wretches who must be saved. Well I'll manage without being saved if it's all right with y'all! See you down there with all those priests and popes and Mother Teresa!


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Jan 18 - 08:20 PM

I prefer This One, Jim.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Jan 18 - 09:32 PM

Senefou I noticed we had the same vigilant conclusion but in different threads.


I wonder how many of us have wished for equal justice in these filthy old stories. It doesn't have to be an eye for eye, it doesn't have to be any more cruel or unusual a punishment than the crime. It just has to be applied equally without a single get out of jail card for the pious or rich or anyone. I hate that some guilty are excused by privilege or entitlement.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05 Jan 18 - 12:06 AM

Jim Carroll says: I have not need for either, but I have a great warmth for the real Christians' who accept it as a guide for life rather than a meaningless dogma

I can agree with that. Religion is something practiced by both good and bad people. The good people use it for good, and the others don't. I despise those who use religion for ill, just as much as any of you do. Maybe moreso, because they give the rest of us believers such a bad name.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Mr Red
Date: 05 Jan 18 - 04:07 AM

Sorry lads - you fellers really need to separate religion from how it is used and abused

As I said. But we have to be objective. There is no doubt that human cultures, and by inference**, human physiology evolved through the forming of tribes, and allegiances.
And religions, howsoever described, were central to that. Think Stonehenge and pyramids. Without religion you would have to coerce the masses to comply with more food, more riches, or more lashing.

We may have forgotten how to sculpt stone in 2 ton lumps so flat they need no mortar, but we have diamond saws now. And we still marvel at sculptors' efforts. There is still a place for religion, but not everywhere, nor for everyone.

Mr Red (devout Atheist).

** retain the context before you spout.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Jan 18 - 04:35 AM

"I prefer This One, Jim."
Same song Steve
Religion is an attempt by manking to explain what they see around them and is probably as old as mankind itself
Organised religion is when different sections of mankind began to squabble about it
The church is when somebody decided there was a profit and a career in it so they marketed and adapted it to suit their ambitions - privatised belief, to put it in modern language.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05 Jan 18 - 04:46 AM

Jim Carroll says: Religion is an attempt by mankind to explain what they see around them and is probably as old as mankind itself

I think maybe I would say, "Religion is an attempt by mankind to seek meaning in what they see around them and is probably as old as mankind itself."

Organized religion is a necessary structure to allow for people to gather - and it carries all the problems of such organizations.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jan 18 - 04:54 AM

Organized religion is a necessary structure to allow for people to gather

Religion is not required for people to gather at all. They gather at concerts, festivals and football matches. Mind you, some would say the last one is a religion :-)

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Jan 18 - 07:34 AM

""Religion is an attempt by mankind to seek meaning in what they see around them"
That is philosophy Joe - something you would not associate with primitive man
I think it's been established that religion arose to explain life in order to control it to the advantage of the people - the elements, crop growth, etc
Basicc anthropology
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 05 Jan 18 - 07:55 AM

I think it's been established that religion arose to explain life in order to control it to the advantage of the people

Some would say that religion arose to control it to the advantage of the priesthood (or clan chiefs or whatever) rather than for the benefit of the people.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Jan 18 - 08:12 AM

It'll be a religion tonight during the Liverpool-Everton derby match (Where DO they put that third set of goalposts...?), Dave.

Religion is a pretty poor attempt at explaining anything. It routinely seeks by far the least likely explanations, those based on myth and magic and the supernatural, always studiously avoiding real evidence, "explanations" which not only can't explain anything but, worse, can't be explained themselves. We all have our irrational moments but I think it's quite likely that inchoate mystical ideas were pounced on opportunistically by community bigwigs who saw the potential for using myth and the human predilection for letting imagination run riot to generate awe and fear and to allow them to control people. Whatever benefits religion has achieved are simply accidental.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 05 Jan 18 - 08:29 AM

Whatever benefits religion has achieved are simply accidental.
I believe that the 'rule of law', which in many countries is based on Judeo-Christian values is hardly accidental.
Those originating the laws (whether Moses & Christ, or the priests) provided a sound footing for future laws.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Jan 18 - 09:02 AM

"Some would say that religion arose to control it"
Perhaps Nigel, but the churches came long after the rituals, which in many ways resembled the firing of guns into apple trees to ensure a good crop as still being remembered in some of the wassailing ceremonies
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Jack Campin
Date: 05 Jan 18 - 09:08 AM

This Thread is about a thirty-year-old series of offenses that Raggytash had already reported last August. No new misconduct, No new insights, No new anything.

Maybe not where you are, but the details of how the case has been more or less wrapped up have been front-page news in the UK, and it was a minor story back in August. I hadn't heard of it before, and a case of such monstrous things being done in one of the most boringly bourgeois bits of England would have stuck in my mind.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jan 18 - 09:13 AM

Those originating the laws (whether Moses & Christ, or the priests) provided a sound footing for future laws.

In which case I guess that China, which has had very little influence from Jewish blokes in long frocks, must be a wasteland of lawlessness. It just goes to show what a good job those religious leaders did if people can still seriously believe that without religion the world would have descended into anarchy and probably destroyed itself before it had chance to develop.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Senoufou
Date: 05 Jan 18 - 09:17 AM

What irks me most about the major religions is their inherent misogyny.
Things may be slowly changing, but most of them put women at a very low position in their order of things.
This is particularly so in my husband's religion of Islam. But reading the Bible (especially the Old Testament) one would conclude that women were of little or no importance at all, and were there to be controlled and used.
I also abhor the homophobia which is still seen as relevant in many belief systems.
When abuse takes place, it is often with a sense of entitlement, dominance and superiority (for example, the Rochdale Muslims' abuse of white girls, whom they saw as mere kafirs) Very dangerous...


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Jan 18 - 09:43 AM

Its been 35 years since I first equated elements of religion with hypnosis.
Latin: religio - to bind/tie together
hypnosis can bind thoughts and actions together

The Jesuits got wind I was making this connection.
They were not interested in the nuance of this, they only wanted to determine if this publicized concept was a danger to them.
They called me to their establishment to examine me.
There were 4 priests and no women
I had only started my 4 year participation in all the major religions so it was clear I knew little about religion but I could claim proficiency in science.
I told them that I preferred to have a doubting agnosticism.
I knew of the scholarly foundation of the Jesuit order so I didn't expect an attack but attack they did.

They invested in a big fancy hypnosis office and practitioner of their own but from a Jesuit Christian POV.
I told them later it was a matter of caring, I don't care and it doesn't matter.
Several years later they had a change of heart and wanted to be friends. Perhaps they still thought I was an enemy to be kept close but not being sure I cut all ties. I was still studying religion by practicing and I was up to Buddhism.

What I took away from the Jesuits is that like a military they attack first and then decide what to do and why...but intelligently.
I left town soon thereafter.Its been 35 years since I first equated elements of religion with hypnosis.
Latin: religio - to bind/tie together
hypnosis can bind thoughts and actions together

The Jesuits got wind I was making this connection.
They were not interested in the nuance of this, they only wanted to determine if this publicized concept was a danger to them.
They called me to their establishment to examine me.
There were 4 priests and no women
I had only started my 4 year participation in all the major religions so it was clear I knew little about religion but I could claim proficiency in science.
I told them that I preferred to have a doubting agnosticism.
I knew of the scholarly foundation of the Jesuit order so I didn't expect an attack but attack they did.

They invested in a big fancy hypnosis office and practitioner of their own but from a Jesuit Christian POV.
I told them later it was a matter of caring, I don't care and it doesn't matter.
Several years later they had a change of heart and wanted to be friends. Perhaps they still thought I was an enemy to be kept close but not being sure I cut all ties. I was still studying religion by practicing and I was up to Buddhism.

What I took away from the Jesuits is that like a military they attack first and then decide what to do and why...but intelligently.
I left town soon thereafter.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Jan 18 - 09:55 AM

Uh oh I am repeating stories like Trump


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Jan 18 - 10:54 AM

You've highlighted not just accidental little peccadillos of religions, Senoufou, but inevitable, inherent and institutionalised problems caused by male hegemonies, which is what all major religions are.

As Moses and Jesus probably never actually existed, Nigel...

One of the tenets of organised religions has always been that we must succumb to a higher power in order to keep ourselves in line. Not one scrap of evidence has ever been presented to confirm that. The suspicious thing is that, without that tenet, religions would fall apart. No wonder it's so tightly clung to.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: keberoxu
Date: 07 Jan 18 - 04:45 PM

again, a space opened up for consideration of man's abuse of fellow man
has been polarized around religion.
Yes, man's abuse of fellow man is incomplete without the well-documented history of organized religion;
and that history has enabled and support continued abuse.

It is also a fact
that abuse thrives in places where religion is unwelcome,
and I didn't read that in a book --
I learned it in a household that maintained a facade of humane tolerance
and made religion unwelcome,
while generations of abuse were as carefully sheltered
as any other part of the family legacy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jan 18 - 05:33 PM

No-one denies that, and in fact I've referred to it in this thread. But organised religions are a special case of revered and held-sacred institutions which offer the opportunity for miscreants, trusted by the people, to be harboured. Being that special case gives them a special responsibility. We want to see that addressed, openly and honestly and a damn sight more promptly than we've been used to seeing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jan 18 - 01:31 PM

Another case of child abuse by a football coach in the news today.
Then there is child abuse by teachers, family members and friends, grooming gangs, youth organisation volunteers, people traffickers and all the others.
Why does only clerical abuse matter to you?

As Joe said, it looks like just an excuse to attack religion.
Just bigotry.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Jan 18 - 02:19 PM

"Another case of child abuse by a football coach in the news today.
Then there is child abuse by teachers, family members and friends, grooming gangs, youth organisation volunteers, people traffickers and all the others.
"

Keith - and how many of that lot would claim to be respectable people of faith...???


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 Jan 18 - 03:31 PM

No the professor is quite right to mention the case in the news today of a football coach who has been found guilty of child abuse.

Yet another man trusted by parents to nurture, care and educated their children, yet another example of appalling abuse of those same children and the trust of the parents.

BUT, I have to add, that unlike some clergy he was not moved to another area when that abuse was discovered and allowed by his employers to continue that self same abuse.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Jan 18 - 03:36 PM

You are clearly so sound in your adherence to your religion that you really should be laughing this off, Mr Acheson. But you don't, because you aren't, are you. You are so insecure and it shows: your favoured means of defence is to attack us and call us bigots. Likewise, you can't take the slightest criticism of Israel or the Tory party or of Nigel Farage. As a matter of fact I've just been through this thread and I've found four posts of mine (there may be more) in which I go to pains to point out that this not just about the clergy. Your resort to "they did it as well, Miss" is a long-discredited tactic here and I'm amazed that you still try to use it. You are reverting to your childhood. Take a look in your mirror and observe a real bigot of the most detestable kind. Then go and have a lie down.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jan 18 - 04:50 AM

Steve, if you mean that I have doubts about my faith, you are right.
Be wary of anyone who says they do not.
I just wonder why you always and only discuss one kind of child abuse and ignore all others.

Pfr,
Keith - and how many of that lot would claim to be respectable people of faith...???

Any of them could.

Steve,
Likewise, you can't take the slightest criticism of Israel or the Tory party or of Nigel Farage.

Yes I can, but I have challenged criticisms that I consider unfair or unreasonable or plain false.

Your resort to "they did it as well, Miss"

I do not. I just point out that you unfairly single out certain groups for criticism while ignoring other and often much worse cases.
I see that as bigotry.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jan 18 - 05:01 AM

Read my post again, cloth-ears. Especially the bit where I said that I have not just confined my criticism to clerics. Repeating untruths like a robot will never make them true, another lesson that you have still to learn.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jan 18 - 05:27 AM

Especially the bit where I said that I have not just confined my criticism to clerics

Remind me of any other group you have attacked over child abuse.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jan 18 - 06:03 AM

Just evaporate, please, troll.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jan 18 - 08:45 AM

You have never attacked any group over child abuse except clerics who you have singled out endlessly.

Again you resort to abuse when your case crumbles.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jan 18 - 08:50 AM

I told you. Look through the thread. Now please stop telling lies.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jan 18 - 10:21 AM

I have just read all your posts on this thread again.
I was not lying. You have never attacked any other group on this.
All you have done is to attempt to justify your always and only singling out the catholic Church.

Joe had it right days ago.
"But somehow, it seems to be that there comes a point when the frequency of your oh-so-righteous shaming of Catholics becomes an act of bigotry. I think you passed that point long ago, and your obsession has become just plain bigotry."


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Jan 18 - 10:29 AM

There you have it Steve, stating the truth has now become bigotry.

Incidentally the football coach referred to earlier has not been found guilty he is on trial.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Jack Campin
Date: 09 Jan 18 - 10:36 AM

When abuse takes place, it is often with a sense of entitlement, dominance and superiority (for example, the Rochdale Muslims' abuse of white girls, whom they saw as mere kafirs)

The origin of the Rochdale case was a generation ago.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2006/jan/12/childrensservices.uknews

The council were set up by a gang of American Christian fundies and their British feminist accomplices into conducting a witch-hunt against non-existent Satanic child abusers. They made such catastrophic fools of themselves that nobody in Rochdale would dare raise the issue of sexual abuse of children for many, many years. And the real abusers figured that out. The panic merchants turned Rochdale into a child rapists' amusement park.

A bit more on the background to the Satanic abuse panic:

http://www.spiked-online.com/newsite/article/13119

With enemies like Ray Wyre and Beatrix Campbell, child abusers don't need friends.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jan 18 - 10:43 AM

There you have it Steve, stating the truth has now become bigotry.

No Rag.
Singling out only one group for criticism while ignoring all others however bad is bigotry.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Jan 18 - 11:03 AM

From: Raggytash
There you have it Steve, stating the truth has now become bigotry.

Incidentally the football coach referred to earlier has not been found guilty he is on trial.


And how many of the reports you place here about 'Clerical abuse' deal with people who have been "found guilty"?


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Jan 18 - 11:09 AM

All of them Nigel.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jan 18 - 11:25 AM

"I have just read all your posts on this thread again.
I was not lying. You have never attacked any other group on this.
All you have done is to attempt to justify your always and only singling out the catholic Church."

All very checkable by anyone who cares to go through the thread. On at least four, if not more, occasions, I've said that the abuse is by no means the exclusive territory of clerics. I've said that there are good priests who have done many good works. I've said good things about my own Catholic upbringing and said that I never saw any of this kind of abuse. If you wish to ferret around to find a form of words that indicates that I'm on a mission to do nothing but attack clerics as my career, go ahead. It's what you do and we all know it. And it makes you a liar because you are deliberately trying to misrepresent the position I've taken all through this thread.

"Joe had it right days ago.
'But somehow, it seems to be that there comes a point when the frequency of your oh-so-righteous shaming of Catholics becomes an act of bigotry. I think you passed that point long ago, and your obsession has become just plain bigotry.'"

Yes, but YOU don't have it right. That remark was directed at Raggytash, not me. So you claim to have read the thread. Well your reading skills aren't up to much then, are they?


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jan 18 - 11:33 AM

"Singling out only one group for criticism while ignoring all others however bad is bigotry."

Whenever we discuss Israel you routinely single out the Palestinians and their allies for excoriation but you will never accept the slightest criticism of the Israeli regime or their US supporters. And you obsessively single out the Labour Party to the exclusion of all other organisations as if it were at the root of all antisemitism. And don't even begin to think of making this a thread about Israel. I state this only to demonstrate the laughable hypocrisy of your remark.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: keberoxu
Date: 09 Jan 18 - 12:25 PM

Carry on, if you wish, with that which fuels your fire.
My post need not concern you,
as I'm not interested in getting personal.

My participation in online conversations and fora/forums is limited to public computer stations, as my home has no computer.
So the public libraries see a great deal of me, as I am a regular at their computers.

This post is coming from one such library branch.
To walk from the door from the parking lot to the computer station table,
it is necessary to pass the bulletin board, and easy to glance there in order to see
if there is anything new and interesting.

Well, the Reverend Kevin Arnett is featured in a notice on the board,
which notice was not there yesterday.
I had never before heard of Arnett, or his "tribunal"
of which he gave public notice, within the past ten years,
about its foundation/existence.

It isn't this branch that Arnett is traveling to, but a library branch
in the same network, literally within ten miles up the same route
and into the next town over.
The notice advertizes Arnett's three-hour engagement/appearance there
as part of his tour promoting this tribunal.

Mudcatter Gnu knows who Rev. Kevin Arnett is because the Gnu lives in Canada,
and Arnett and his tribunal are of Canadian provenance;
also because Gnu reads The Tyee for its news content,
and The Tyee has for years been keeping people informed about Arnett.

For that matter,
a Mudcat search for forum threads about Arnett proved fruitful just now. Other Mudcatters have posted about Arnett in the past.

After doing some searching online about Arnett and his tribunal, though,
I am going to let the meeting happen without me.
I don't like what I hear/read;
not that there is no merit in the issues to which he draws attention,
but that Arnett seems so desperately polarized and fanatical
as to be capable of doing harm to his fellow man in the name of doing good.

This post has said very little about what Arnett seeks to expose,
nor am I going to -- it's pertinent to this topic of course.
I'm just concerned about not getting carried away and not losing balance.
Thanks for listening.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Jan 18 - 12:47 PM

I've just had a quick look at wilispooks, interesting to say the least Keberoxu. I am shortly to go out for the night but will read up some more tomorrow.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: keberoxu
Date: 09 Jan 18 - 01:33 PM

Did you mean to say "wikispooks" rather than wilispooks?
My attempt to retrace your steps just now, Raggytash,
was a dead end at wilispooks, but wikispooks worked.

Here's how all this looks to me.
If the Rev. Kevin Arnett were the "con man"
which some online responses make him out to be,
then he would have been debunked some years ago,
because he has been before the public eye longer than I realized.

Would that the problem were so simple.
Arnett appears to be nothing if not human,
and what comes to my mind in evaluating the information about him is
"but for the grace of *** , there go I."

Arnett's feelings and convictions seem sincere, they are certainly intense
and these feelings and convictions have stood up
to years of intimidation and rejection.
Does that justify not knowing how much you are making a bad thing worse?

I fear that a public figure as fanatical as this one
requires a lengthy and uncomfortable commitment to therapy and counseling
before he can hold himself accountable
for the intrusions and problems he has visited
on the very people to whom he ministers.

That is asking, sadly, a very great deal indeed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Jack Campin
Date: 09 Jan 18 - 02:36 PM

If the Rev. Kevin Arnett were the "con man" which some online responses make him out to be, then he would have been debunked some years ago

Since when did being debunked shut a celebrity up?


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Jan 18 - 11:06 PM

The real problem one suspects for abusers is that we have become an articulate, literate and critical society. There are many parts of the world where those wielding power are not subject to the checks and balances and surveillance that nowadays afford us protection.

many dark corners...i think we can all sense that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Mr Red
Date: 10 Jan 18 - 04:01 AM

football matches. Mind you, some would say the last one is a religion

Oh, I think calling it a religion is understating it rather a lot (aka huge). It is tribal, it is cash cow. It is politics so much that colour-blind prime ministers have to avow to like West Ham, when they mean Aston Vanilla ('cos they're easily licked).
Presumably prime ministers are so called because they only see in primary (political) colours!

And if we are talking abuse, why does blame for disasters at football stadia fall solely at the feet of those sorting the mess? Answer because anyone pointing out "this or that measure was the solution to crowd behaviour" is roasted by the fans. It is easier to name a scapegoat than blame a mass of human lemmings. Distasters rarely have a single contributory cause.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jan 18 - 04:27 AM

"Singling out only one group for criticism while ignoring all others however bad is bigotry."
And hiding behind the fact that "others do it" to defend it is gross hypocrisy
We deal with Christianity because that is what effects us, living in a so called 'Christian' country - it was Christians that committed these horrific crimes and it was the Christian Church which facilitated and defended it - on an international scale as it has been revealed
This has never been an attack on the religion or on Chrstions per se, as you persistently claim
It is an exposé of the criminal clergy and the criminal hierarchy who covered up their criminality and passed them on to other parishes and eventually other countries so they were able to continue to rape and abuse children
THey still keep the bulk of those details hidden
No other religion has ever behaved in that manner
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jan 18 - 06:32 AM

Football non-fans constantly attacking football for being tribal is, ironically, tribal. So you don't like football. Well a lot of people do. A couple of years ago I tried, months in advance, to get a ticket for a relatively humdrum, non-crucial home match at Anfield (Liverpool vs Villa). No chance.

There a lot wrong with football. Players' pay at the top of the game is scandalous. Most league footballers don't get tens of thousands a week, however. We tend to dwell on the most egregious examples, which are actually a small minority. Ticket prices are outlandish in consequence (though you'd pay approximately as much for a decent seat at the opera or for a symphony concert). There's far too much corporate involvement. Some top clubs are bankrolled by billionaires who can buy or sell clubs at will and that's not really fair. Transfer fees at the top are ludicrous, and they are boosted further by parasitic agents taking huge slices of dosh. Television rights are bought for billions a year. We all pay for that eventually via advertising, even though you have to pay to see the matches on the telly. Which I do.

But wassup? It's a perfect example of capitalism in action. So is Tesco, Asda and Morrisons, but I still use them. Another thing that will, I know, never convince the footie-haters: at its best, which is often, it's a beautiful, flowing game that requires consummate skill, tactics and fitness. It isn't popular for nothing. And its popularity, whether you like it or not, crosses class boundaries. It's a great diversion for millions of people who haven't got much colour in their lives. And what's so wrong with diversions? And, let's face it, Liverpool FC are simply the greatest in waiting...

Sorry for the, er, diversion...


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jan 18 - 09:44 AM

Steve, I know Joe's remark was directed at Rag, but it applies to you also.
You may have referred to other kinds of offenders here but you have never criticised any group but clerics. I do not lie.

What you said about me is not true.
I discussed anti-Semitism within Labour. No other party has had such issues in recent years.
I may have put Israel's side of the story when I felt it was being unfairly criticised by your group, but I have never singled out Palestinians for criticism.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jan 18 - 09:46 AM

Hey, kind Mr/Ms Moderator sir/madam, would you please delete that last post of mine as it clearly has no place in this thread. Naturally, it's Mr Red's fault that it's here. Now that we have a dedicated footie thread I've copied and pasted it over there. I thank you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jan 18 - 09:47 AM

I'm past caring, Keith. We know you only too well.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Raggytash
Date: 10 Jan 18 - 10:00 AM

THIS POST IS ADDRESSED TO STEVE SHAW ONLY.

The wazzock can't even get it into his head that you, I and some other people are not an organised gang Steve.

If he can't grasp that simple concept you have bugger all chance with anything else.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jan 18 - 10:20 AM

Rag, PMs are available.
If you post a comment on the forum, anyone is entitled to respond whoever you address it to.
Childish name calling, so typical of your group, does not alter that fact.

You form a group of posters who dominate certain threads.
You all hold almost identical views and support each other while all attacking anyone who puts a differing view.

Politically your views are at the extreme end of the spectrum, but here you can posture as if you are mainstream, marginalising and ridiculing anyone who disagrees.
Your behaviour discourages decent people with mainstream views from contributing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Raggytash
Date: 10 Jan 18 - 10:26 AM

See what I mean Steve !!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Jan 18 - 10:27 AM

SADGIT


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Jan 18 - 10:52 AM

Keith - yes that's right innit...

...you're the mainstream and everyone who disagrees is an organised red under the bed conspiracist threat to normality,
and should all be sent packing back to Russia...!!!!!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jan 18 - 11:38 AM

Happily married for 41 years, mortgage for most of 'em, two kids who went to local schools who both grew up dead nice, played Irish on gobiron down t'pub 'til started to go deaf, beaten up Ford Focus, Mrs Steve making marmalade in kitchen this very minute, fan of Liverpool FC, been out to Lidl for me veg this morning then B&M for me wild bird food, fly Easyjet for me hols, vote Labour (only political organisation I've ever been a member of)...

Yeah, meet Mr Extremist!


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: keberoxu
Date: 10 Jan 18 - 11:48 AM

Said it yesterday, bears repeating today:

Carry on, if you wish, with that which fuels your fire.
My series of posts need not concern you,
as I'm not interested in getting personal.

Bit of a lost cause, this is.
The Rev. Kevin Annett, THAT's the correct spelling of his real name.
My posts of 9 January consistently misspell his last name as Arnett, and that is incorrect.
But who cares ... maybe Kevin Annett cares, maybe his father William S. Annett cares,
but their years in the public eye, and their messages and what they have to say,
never mind what has been done to others,
none of that interests in the slightest
those of you who are busy dancing the dance with each other.
Why do I even bother.

Maybe the Annett noises interest Raggytash a little bit.
Everyone else has better things to do.

After my two posts on this subject -- misspelled names and all --
my online searches continued apace.
I found some things that made me freeze.
And it wasn't what you think.
It wasn't the topics on which Kevin Annett has raised his voice since roughtly 1995.

It was the relationship between a father in his eighties,
and his adult son.
That absolutely hit me where it hurts.
It hit home harder than all of the stories about Canadian atrocities.
Because, as I said before,
but for the grace of ***, there go I.

That father-son pairing, the things they say about each other and the world they live in,
on line and for everybody else to read,
there is much to ponder there.
Would a separate thread be better suited to such disclosures?
Why bother posting any of it here?


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Raggytash
Date: 10 Jan 18 - 11:55 AM

Where do you get Savile oranges at this time of year?


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Raggytash
Date: 10 Jan 18 - 11:56 AM

Or even Saville Oranges come to that!


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: keberoxu
Date: 10 Jan 18 - 12:04 PM

Oranges.

I

GIVE

UP.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jan 18 - 12:23 PM

Or even Seville! Mrs Steve got 'em yesterday in Lansdown Dairy in Bude. The marmalade is now potted and the house smells great.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jan 18 - 12:42 PM

Keberoxu, Kevin Annett has made himself into an extremely controversial figure. After a lot of googling I can't get my head round it and don't know whether I should be siding with him or not. Whatever his motivations are, his tactical sense is questionable. The sword of truth requires directness and a reining in of emotional grandstanding. The latter is the quickest way to get your adversaries to set to work on you as a person rather than face the accusations against them. He may be right but he doesn't appear to be doing it right. I'll keep looking.


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Subject: the Rev. Kevin Annett
From: keberoxu
Date: 10 Jan 18 - 01:21 PM

Thanks, Steve. I figured nobody was listening before you posted just now.

A couple of things to consider.
Ronald Ross Annett has life-year dates 1895 - 1988, think I got those right.
His birthplace was Ontario.
When the Great War happened, R. Ross Annett enlisted.
He was at Vimy Ridge, no less -- something called "the pimple" ?!
This Annett, as you can see from his dates, survived, although
he was wounded in action and I believe wounded so as to be lamed. Something about his hip.

R. Ross Annett left Canada for the United States,
where he submitted stories to the Saturday Evening Post
about life in farm country in the province of Alberta.
I have yet to read any of these stories. If I hear right,
the characters are fictional but based on childhood experience.
Of his wartime experience, it seems, he never wrote.

The Saturday Evening Post stories made R. Ross Annett a Who's-Who type celebrity;
to this day there is a literary award, in Canada, with his name on it,
but I don't know who established the award or endowed/financed it.

I know of three sons from Ronald Ross Annett, perhaps there were other children.
William S. Annett, at latest report, is in his eighties and living in Florida, from where, for a number of years, he has written articles which appear online.
Jack Dunning Annett's dates are 1925 - 2011, according to an online obituary page for a periodical from the city?/town? of Consort, Alberta. This man's remains were to be interred in Consort. While Jack was born in the United States, his childhood, according to this obituary, took him to Consort and he spent his growing-up years in Alberta. Although he, too, had a lifelong love of literature and writing, he made his profession as an architect. There is nothing in his obituary about whether or not he was ever in the armed forces. His brother Bill is named among the "survivors" in the obituary. His parents are acknowledged by name.
Oh! Here's the answer to my question. Besides William S. Annett, the surviving brother,
the Consort, Alberta obituary (looking at it now)
says that Jack Dunning Annett was predeceased by, amongst others,

"brothers Bob and Ron and sister Carol."
So that totals five children of Ronald Ross Annett.

One of those two brothers was killed in action during World War II.
Ah! Just found him I think -- online now in another "tab."
The year before Jack Dunning Annett was born in the US,
this brother arrived, also born in the US:
Robert Ivan Loucks Annett, 1924 - 1944.
The name "Loucks" comes from the ancestry of his mother, Lenora or "Lennye," wife of R. Ross Annett.
A military cemetery in Western Europe is his final resting place. France maybe?

Oh dearie me.
I don't want to write anything more about William S. "Bill" Annett.
Most of what I could find out about him is written by him,
and it smells . . . it just plain smells.
I don't want to repeat it here, honestly.
If you are curious, you can put the search engine through its paces
and look for it yourself.
Well, suffice to underline that Bill Annett takes journalism and writing very personally, and is highly opinionated. Grandstanding, that's Steve's word above, is easily discerned in Bill Annett's opinions and convictions.
I could print some of them here. I won't though.

I know of two sons of William S. Annett.
One of them is his namesake.
The other is Kevin Daniel Annett, ordained by the United Church of Canada
and disbarred, it appears, by same in 1995.

Kevin Annett strikes me as a frustrated journalist,
ministerial ordination or no;
notoriety is more than useful to him, I fear he craves it somehow.
Ach, enough for now.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Jan 18 - 02:38 PM

Said it yesterday, bears repeating today:


Or more likely, not.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 04:58 AM

Steve, I am sure you are a lovely family man, but your political views are extreme.
You are happy to describe yourself as "Far Left."
That is extreme.

You and Jim both support BDS, a view too extreme for any UK party or any Liberal Democracy to espouse.
(Guardian, "Jeremy Corbyn would be happy to buy goods from Israel and does not support a blanket boycott, divestment and sanctions (BDS) policy)

When all your group are dominating a thread you posture as if your extreme views are mainstream, while marginalising and ridiculing anyone expressing actual mainstream views.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Mr Red
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 04:58 AM

Same old story

The chosen few addressing the person instead of the issue.

Reading into instead of reading.

Roll on 2019, it will be all different then.

Please!


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 06:31 AM

I don't care what you think, Keith.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 06:35 AM

"You and Jim both support BDS, a view too extreme for any UK party or any Liberal Democracy to espouse."
So extremism is to be judged by what political parties, including extremist ones, support and don't support
The classical definition of fascism is to place the actions of the state above the aspirations of the people
BDS is not extreme - if it was, any boycott would he an extremist act, such as that against Apartheid South Africa
Remind us how many decades Anerica boycotted Cuban goods or how long the blockade of Palestine by Israel has been in place?
Utter nonsense
Human rights groups and decent people throughout the world support action against Israel for its terrorist behaviour - I saw an exhibition of photographs yesterday in our County Town arts centre showing how the authorities have closed down an entire area of Muslim shops in the centre of Jerusalem
You manic attack on the Labour party is a perfect illustration of another example of religion being used to carry out abuse   
"I discussed anti-Semitism within Labour. No other party has had such issues in recent years."
Most religions have been incorporated into the establishment and many of them, Christianity especially, have become spokesmen for some of the most extreme right wing Governments and groups on the planet - Fascist Spain and Chile, Fascist dictatorships in South America - the Dutch Reform Church was a solid supporter of the South African regime.... the list is very impressive
No other Party has had such a problem - are you joking?
Ukip based their activities on Islamophobia and swung the vote on Brexit on a racist ticket
The vice chairman of an even more extreme anti Semitic and Islamophobic offshoot of Ukip it to be put on trial in Belfast for racist activities
The Northern Ireland Unionist Government was established on the basis of dividing an entire State into two religious factions and making one of those less influential than the other.
In contrast - only two members of the Labour party, Livingstone and Shah, were accused of directly involving Jewish people in their criticism of Israel - one apologised for a youthful indiscretion - the other simply told the truth at the wrong time.
Yet all the other things I have mentioned rate as less important as these two cases
That must signify something
I have no intention of responding to your inevitable denials Keith - New Year resolution and all that
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: keberoxu
Date: 13 Jan 18 - 04:18 PM

My earlier posts about Rev. Kevin Annett
referenced The Tyee, and Gnu.

I haven't heard from Gnu about Annett.
But here is the link to The Tyee.
This article goes back almost ten years.

Terry Glavin on Kevin Annett

As posted before, I'm not going to the Kevin Annett presentation
in the Greater Boston Metro area,
advertised for this month.
The issues in which Annett is invested are important,
and they ought to be addressed regardless of his position.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jan 18 - 05:32 AM

Interesting statement from an interesting source, from this morning's Irish Times

BISHOP SAYS DANGER OF CHILD ABUSE IS TO BELIEVE THE WORST IS OVER
A Catholic bishop has said that ignorance about the effects of child abuse in the past compounded its harmful effects on the lives of many young and vulnerable people.
"People of my generation began our adult lives with almost no awareness of the pervasiveness and impact of abuse in our society and in all societies," the Catholic Bishop of Limerick Brendan Leahy said.
"As a consequence, failure to recognise and respond appropriately to the complex issues which abuse presents, has at times compounded the profound and harmful impact on the lives of many young and vulnerable persons," he said.
"In recent weeks, millions have joined the social media conversation using the hashtag #MeToo, or its equivalent, on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram; women and men denouncing harmful sexual experiences. Many are revealing for the first time, via social media, their own stories. While the majority of those sharing #MeToo stories are adult women, a large number of the shared stories reveal sexual abuse that began when they were minors," he said.

Safeguarding
Initially, in trying to tackle abuse issues in the past, "we began speaking about child protection. Today we speak instead of safeguarding, because safeguarding is a concept that reaches beyond protection, responding not only to problems which have occurred but incorporates the prevention of harm and the promotion of welfare.
"Safeguarding also extends beyond children to include people of all ages and abilities who may have vulnerabilities which expose them to a risk of abuse," he said.

Collaboration
Bishop Leahy was speaking at Mary Immaculate College in Limerick at a conference on "Building Collaboration in Safeguarding" organised by Limerick diocese in association with An Garda Siochana, Tusla and the HSE.
Attendees included representatives from statutory, voluntary and educational sectors, as well as various faith organisations. "The greatest danger for us is that we might relax and believe that the worst is in some way behind us. To take this view would be a profound error which would compound the historical failures," he said.
From his own meetings with victims he was critically aware of its impact "on all dimensions of their lives and there are no quick or simple solutions to what are sometimes their lifelong struggles.
"I am also very conscious of the strain on people working in voluntary organisations as they struggle with what at times seem to be enormous limitations on resources.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: mg
Date: 16 Jan 18 - 02:46 AM

go to abuse tracker. read what is going on in peru and chile and the pope's visit. the pope has been extremely ..somewhere between negligent and culpable on this issue.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jan 18 - 03:25 AM

HERE
The Americas have historically been the location of the worst collusion between the church and State terrorism
This news item appears to have neatly slipped under the wire on this side of the Pond
Thanks MG
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: keberoxu
Date: 16 Jan 18 - 11:19 AM

Since Raggytash responded to my contribution (page 2 if you're doing pages)
by consulting the Wiki,

I will bring this full circle.
Here are two different parts of the WikiVerse
with contrasting presentations on
the Kevin Annett attention-getting campaign
(sadly I think that's the most authentic thing about him,
that he craves attention)

RationalWiki: Pseudolaw

Wikispooks: whistleblower, activist, writer


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: keberoxu
Date: 17 Jan 18 - 10:21 AM

Does God answer prayer?

Just went past the bulletin board with the notice
that started my inquiry.

Someone took a ballpoint pen
and wrote across the Kevin Annett lecture date:
RESCHEDULED


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Mudcat time: 18 January 10:46 AM EST

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