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BS: Another year, same old story

Raggytash 01 Jan 18 - 09:09 AM
Senoufou 01 Jan 18 - 12:30 PM
Raggytash 01 Jan 18 - 06:41 PM
Raggytash 01 Jan 18 - 06:43 PM
Senoufou 01 Jan 18 - 06:56 PM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Jan 18 - 04:51 AM
Nigel Parsons 02 Jan 18 - 05:18 AM
Raggytash 02 Jan 18 - 05:43 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Jan 18 - 07:02 AM
Senoufou 02 Jan 18 - 07:54 AM
CupOfTea 02 Jan 18 - 12:27 PM
Senoufou 02 Jan 18 - 01:16 PM
Jim Carroll 02 Jan 18 - 01:33 PM
Steve Shaw 02 Jan 18 - 03:04 PM
Senoufou 02 Jan 18 - 04:27 PM
Raggytash 02 Jan 18 - 05:03 PM
Steve Shaw 02 Jan 18 - 05:39 PM
Senoufou 02 Jan 18 - 05:42 PM
keberoxu 02 Jan 18 - 06:40 PM
Steve Shaw 02 Jan 18 - 07:50 PM
Joe Offer 02 Jan 18 - 11:00 PM
Jim Carroll 03 Jan 18 - 04:29 AM
Joe Offer 03 Jan 18 - 04:34 AM
Raggytash 03 Jan 18 - 04:50 AM
Steve Shaw 03 Jan 18 - 05:25 AM
Senoufou 03 Jan 18 - 05:35 AM
Jack Campin 03 Jan 18 - 05:47 AM
Steve Shaw 03 Jan 18 - 06:10 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Jan 18 - 06:15 AM
Raggytash 03 Jan 18 - 06:27 AM
Senoufou 03 Jan 18 - 06:34 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Jan 18 - 07:29 AM
Joe Offer 03 Jan 18 - 02:22 PM
Jim Carroll 03 Jan 18 - 02:56 PM
Iains 03 Jan 18 - 02:56 PM
Joe Offer 03 Jan 18 - 04:14 PM
Joe Offer 03 Jan 18 - 04:35 PM
Raggytash 03 Jan 18 - 05:08 PM
Dave the Gnome 03 Jan 18 - 05:30 PM
Steve Shaw 03 Jan 18 - 05:46 PM
Steve Shaw 03 Jan 18 - 06:35 PM
Joe Offer 03 Jan 18 - 06:54 PM
Joe Offer 03 Jan 18 - 07:10 PM
Steve Shaw 03 Jan 18 - 08:10 PM
Joe Offer 03 Jan 18 - 09:31 PM
Dave the Gnome 04 Jan 18 - 08:51 AM
Jack Campin 04 Jan 18 - 09:51 AM
Joe Offer 04 Jan 18 - 10:33 AM
Dave the Gnome 04 Jan 18 - 10:37 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Jan 18 - 10:51 AM
Mr Red 04 Jan 18 - 12:07 PM
Greg F. 04 Jan 18 - 06:31 PM
Steve Shaw 04 Jan 18 - 07:08 PM
Jim Carroll 04 Jan 18 - 07:33 PM
Steve Shaw 04 Jan 18 - 07:44 PM
Greg F. 04 Jan 18 - 08:20 PM
Donuel 04 Jan 18 - 09:32 PM
Joe Offer 05 Jan 18 - 12:06 AM
Mr Red 05 Jan 18 - 04:07 AM
Jim Carroll 05 Jan 18 - 04:35 AM
Joe Offer 05 Jan 18 - 04:46 AM
Dave the Gnome 05 Jan 18 - 04:54 AM
Jim Carroll 05 Jan 18 - 07:34 AM
Nigel Parsons 05 Jan 18 - 07:55 AM
Steve Shaw 05 Jan 18 - 08:12 AM
Nigel Parsons 05 Jan 18 - 08:29 AM
Jim Carroll 05 Jan 18 - 09:02 AM
Jack Campin 05 Jan 18 - 09:08 AM
Dave the Gnome 05 Jan 18 - 09:13 AM
Senoufou 05 Jan 18 - 09:17 AM
Donuel 05 Jan 18 - 09:43 AM
Donuel 05 Jan 18 - 09:55 AM
Steve Shaw 05 Jan 18 - 10:54 AM
keberoxu 07 Jan 18 - 04:45 PM
Steve Shaw 07 Jan 18 - 05:33 PM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Jan 18 - 01:31 PM
punkfolkrocker 08 Jan 18 - 02:19 PM
Raggytash 08 Jan 18 - 03:31 PM
Steve Shaw 08 Jan 18 - 03:36 PM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Jan 18 - 04:50 AM
Steve Shaw 09 Jan 18 - 05:01 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Jan 18 - 05:27 AM
Steve Shaw 09 Jan 18 - 06:03 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Jan 18 - 08:45 AM
Steve Shaw 09 Jan 18 - 08:50 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Jan 18 - 10:21 AM
Raggytash 09 Jan 18 - 10:29 AM
Jack Campin 09 Jan 18 - 10:36 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Jan 18 - 10:43 AM
Nigel Parsons 09 Jan 18 - 11:03 AM
Raggytash 09 Jan 18 - 11:09 AM
Steve Shaw 09 Jan 18 - 11:25 AM
Steve Shaw 09 Jan 18 - 11:33 AM
keberoxu 09 Jan 18 - 12:25 PM
Raggytash 09 Jan 18 - 12:47 PM
keberoxu 09 Jan 18 - 01:33 PM
Jack Campin 09 Jan 18 - 02:36 PM
Big Al Whittle 09 Jan 18 - 11:06 PM
Mr Red 10 Jan 18 - 04:01 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Jan 18 - 04:27 AM
Steve Shaw 10 Jan 18 - 06:32 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Jan 18 - 09:44 AM
Steve Shaw 10 Jan 18 - 09:46 AM
Steve Shaw 10 Jan 18 - 09:47 AM
Raggytash 10 Jan 18 - 10:00 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Jan 18 - 10:20 AM
Raggytash 10 Jan 18 - 10:26 AM
Dave the Gnome 10 Jan 18 - 10:27 AM
punkfolkrocker 10 Jan 18 - 10:52 AM
Steve Shaw 10 Jan 18 - 11:38 AM
keberoxu 10 Jan 18 - 11:48 AM
Raggytash 10 Jan 18 - 11:55 AM
Raggytash 10 Jan 18 - 11:56 AM
keberoxu 10 Jan 18 - 12:04 PM
Steve Shaw 10 Jan 18 - 12:23 PM
Steve Shaw 10 Jan 18 - 12:42 PM
keberoxu 10 Jan 18 - 01:21 PM
Greg F. 10 Jan 18 - 02:38 PM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Jan 18 - 04:58 AM
Mr Red 11 Jan 18 - 04:58 AM
Steve Shaw 11 Jan 18 - 06:31 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Jan 18 - 06:35 AM
keberoxu 13 Jan 18 - 04:18 PM
Jim Carroll 15 Jan 18 - 05:32 AM
mg 16 Jan 18 - 02:46 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Jan 18 - 03:25 AM
keberoxu 16 Jan 18 - 11:19 AM
keberoxu 17 Jan 18 - 10:21 AM
Greg F. 19 Jan 18 - 09:54 AM
Joe Offer 19 Jan 18 - 10:38 AM
Steve Shaw 19 Jan 18 - 11:13 AM
Senoufou 19 Jan 18 - 11:32 AM
Greg F. 19 Jan 18 - 11:47 AM
Joe Offer 19 Jan 18 - 01:17 PM
Joe Offer 19 Jan 18 - 09:19 PM
mg 20 Jan 18 - 03:09 AM
Raggytash 20 Jan 18 - 05:43 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Jan 18 - 06:14 AM
Greg F. 20 Jan 18 - 09:26 AM
Steve Shaw 20 Jan 18 - 09:41 AM
Joe Offer 20 Jan 18 - 09:55 AM
Raggytash 20 Jan 18 - 10:06 AM
Joe Offer 20 Jan 18 - 10:29 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Jan 18 - 11:03 AM
Joe Offer 20 Jan 18 - 11:28 AM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Jan 18 - 11:38 AM
Jeri 20 Jan 18 - 11:49 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Jan 18 - 11:53 AM
Jeri 20 Jan 18 - 12:01 PM
Steve Shaw 20 Jan 18 - 12:29 PM
Joe Offer 20 Jan 18 - 01:12 PM
Jim Carroll 20 Jan 18 - 02:10 PM
Steve Shaw 20 Jan 18 - 02:14 PM
Greg F. 20 Jan 18 - 02:18 PM
Gutcher 20 Jan 18 - 02:49 PM
Senoufou 20 Jan 18 - 03:00 PM
Greg F. 20 Jan 18 - 03:56 PM
Senoufou 20 Jan 18 - 04:13 PM
Greg F. 20 Jan 18 - 05:00 PM
mg 21 Jan 18 - 02:11 AM
Joe Offer 21 Jan 18 - 03:19 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Jan 18 - 03:46 AM
mg 21 Jan 18 - 04:57 AM
Raggytash 21 Jan 18 - 03:20 PM
Raggytash 22 Jan 18 - 10:46 AM
Greg F. 22 Jan 18 - 10:51 AM
Greg F. 22 Jan 18 - 10:53 AM
Mr Red 22 Jan 18 - 10:58 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Jan 18 - 11:12 AM
Joe Offer 23 Jan 18 - 12:31 AM
mg 23 Jan 18 - 01:19 AM
Joe Offer 23 Jan 18 - 01:33 AM
mg 23 Jan 18 - 02:18 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Jan 18 - 04:10 AM
Joe Offer 23 Jan 18 - 05:06 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Jan 18 - 06:18 AM
Joe Offer 23 Jan 18 - 02:32 PM
mg 23 Jan 18 - 02:44 PM
Joe Offer 23 Jan 18 - 02:59 PM
Donuel 24 Jan 18 - 10:05 AM
Greg F. 24 Jan 18 - 10:13 AM
Donuel 24 Jan 18 - 10:30 AM
Donuel 24 Jan 18 - 11:00 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Jan 18 - 11:29 AM
Donuel 24 Jan 18 - 12:48 PM
Greg F. 24 Jan 18 - 12:56 PM
Donuel 24 Jan 18 - 12:59 PM
Senoufou 24 Jan 18 - 01:49 PM
mg 24 Jan 18 - 02:06 PM
Jack Campin 24 Jan 18 - 02:44 PM
Jim Carroll 24 Jan 18 - 02:52 PM
Joe Offer 24 Jan 18 - 03:59 PM
Joe Offer 24 Jan 18 - 04:35 PM
Raggytash 24 Jan 18 - 04:57 PM
Donuel 24 Jan 18 - 05:37 PM
Joe Offer 24 Jan 18 - 06:36 PM
Greg F. 24 Jan 18 - 06:41 PM
Donuel 24 Jan 18 - 08:03 PM
Donuel 24 Jan 18 - 08:15 PM
Jim Carroll 24 Jan 18 - 08:34 PM
mg 24 Jan 18 - 08:48 PM
Joe Offer 24 Jan 18 - 11:49 PM
Jim Carroll 25 Jan 18 - 05:58 AM
Donuel 25 Jan 18 - 07:36 AM
Donuel 25 Jan 18 - 12:46 PM
Donuel 25 Jan 18 - 05:20 PM
Dave the Gnome 25 Jan 18 - 05:37 PM
keberoxu 25 Jan 18 - 06:35 PM
Joe Offer 25 Jan 18 - 10:11 PM
Dave the Gnome 26 Jan 18 - 03:35 AM
Joe Offer 26 Jan 18 - 03:48 AM
Dave the Gnome 26 Jan 18 - 03:57 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Jan 18 - 03:57 AM
Dave the Gnome 26 Jan 18 - 04:03 AM
Joe Offer 26 Jan 18 - 04:15 AM
Joe Offer 26 Jan 18 - 04:29 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Jan 18 - 06:24 AM
Joe Offer 26 Jan 18 - 06:40 AM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Jan 18 - 08:43 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Jan 18 - 08:55 AM
Stilly River Sage 26 Jan 18 - 09:54 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Jan 18 - 10:04 AM
keberoxu 26 Jan 18 - 11:53 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Jan 18 - 01:00 PM
keberoxu 26 Jan 18 - 01:14 PM
Jack Campin 30 Jan 18 - 10:26 AM
Jim Carroll 30 Jan 18 - 12:38 PM
Jim Carroll 30 Jan 18 - 01:01 PM
Jack Campin 31 Jan 18 - 07:12 AM
Jack Campin 31 Jan 18 - 07:26 AM
keberoxu 31 Jan 18 - 12:12 PM
Jim Carroll 01 Feb 18 - 07:21 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Feb 18 - 06:25 AM
Jack Campin 02 Feb 18 - 06:42 AM
Greg F. 06 Feb 18 - 09:27 AM
Jack Campin 27 Jun 18 - 08:20 AM

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Subject: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 Jan 18 - 09:09 AM

Another year and the same old story of abuse. The link is to todays Guardian newspaper.


Yet more abuse


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Senoufou
Date: 01 Jan 18 - 12:30 PM

Oh my goodness Raggytash! My Irish cousin's three young Roman Catholic sons (all boys) lived in Ealing and attended both those schools!! This would have been in the early sixties up until the early seventies. The youngest tragically committed suicide, but we never discovered why. He was fifteen. I'm now wondering if it was connected to abuse he may have suffered? His parents are now deceased, and I'm not in contact with his two surviving brothers. His funeral was conducted in Ealing Abbey, and my parents attended.
I can't understand how any person (never mind a man in Benedictine Holy Orders) could beat and sexually abuse young boys and get away with it. Rumours must have abounded and his colleagues must have been complicit.
One can only admire the victim (called 'Peter') for his courage in coming forward and telling about what went on.
My cousin's husband was a doctor, and the poor lad stole drugs from his father's briefcase with which to end his life. It was absolutely horrendous.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 Jan 18 - 06:41 PM

I don't really know how to respond to you Senoufou.

The damage that those "caring" people did to innocents is beyond my comprehension.

If, as the religion they professed to believe in, castigates sinners, they will probably burn in hell for eternity.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 Jan 18 - 06:43 PM

PS It's good to see you back!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Senoufou
Date: 01 Jan 18 - 06:56 PM

I've e mailed my sister, who being younger may have some memories about the events. (I'd left home for University long before it all happened)
I think rotting in Hell is probably too good for these abusers. And the damage they caused will last lifelong in their victims' psychology.
Thank goodness the Kosovans extradited the fiend. 'Father Laurence' indeed!
I think I mentioned long ago on a similar thread that a Catholic priest, Father Anthony McSweeney, blessed me several times by laying his hand on my head when I used to attend Mass in his Parish in Norwich, although an Anglican. He was convicted of long-term abuse of boys in a children's home, and of being a member of a paedophile ring in West London. One wonders if one can trust anybody...


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jan 18 - 04:51 AM

How lovely to see your name in a thread again Senoufou.
Happy New Year to you and your hubby.

Rag, child abuse is a despicable crime. No-one here defends it.
Do you really need to start another thread whenever one kind of it hits the headlines again?

Is there anything more to be said here that has not been said?


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 02 Jan 18 - 05:18 AM

Keith,
While I agree that we don't really need more of these threads, it does appear that it has given Senoufou an insight into family problems which she would not otherwise have.
On this occasion perhaps the ends justify the means, as regards opening a new thread.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Raggytash
Date: 02 Jan 18 - 05:43 AM

Nigel, I think some people would rather these matters were "swept under the carpet". It is because of such views that these abuses continue to occur. Today, tomorrow, next week, next month ........


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jan 18 - 07:02 AM

Nigel, I think some people would rather these matters were "swept under the carpet"

I do not and I am sure no-one else here does, but we have had endless threads devoted to clerical abuse, while all other kinds of child abuse are ignored.

Everyone who wants to express a view on clerical abuse must have done so by now.
Is there anything more to say?

I am happy if this thread has been of personal interest to Senoufou, but that is pure serendipity.
Perhaps this time, as Nigel says, the end for Senoufou may justify Rag's questionable means.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Senoufou
Date: 02 Jan 18 - 07:54 AM

While I agree that the subject has been extensively debated, here and elsewhere, it was the fact that the abuse took place at St Benedict's School that caused me to comment. I had no idea that this had occurred, and am grateful to Raggytash for having posted the article.

My sister hasn't yet replied to my enquiry - she's got the 'flu poor soul, so she's probably tucked up in bed.

I'm being very tentative about posting again on Mudcat, not wanting to become embroiled in unpleasant arguments. But thank you so much for the good wishes and New Year greetings.
Kindest regards to all, and a Very Happy New Year everybody!


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: CupOfTea
Date: 02 Jan 18 - 12:27 PM

Silver lining - hearing from the lovely heart of Senoufou again - a much missed graceful voice.

Getting information about abuse out like this is very much like the #metoo movement, and what the general response to it amounts to is going to be important.
Does it result in a less stigmatized future for those who report abuse, making it easier to stop someone before they make a life career of abuse?
Does it result in accusations being weaponized to deamonize persons & institutions?
Does it create an social environment where scrutiny of the facts comes before instant condemnation?
How are victims best helped to find emotional health for the rest of their lives?

That higher-ups in the Catholic Church can harbor known abusers is beyond wrong, and has driven more people away from the comfort of religion than if they'd been upfront, defrocked and prosecuted each case. In my own diocese, this was dealt with a bit better than some - I was shocked that the sweet young priest who'd celebrated my wedding was one of those who was removed from the priesthood for abuse.

I grieve for all the victims, including those innocent, holy, and loving priests and teachers who care for children, but must be ever vigilant that they never be alone with one, must be cautious about hugs, be denied the kind of comforting touch that should be natural.

Joanne in Cleveland


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Senoufou
Date: 02 Jan 18 - 01:16 PM

Ah Joanne, you're quite correct in all your questions - it is indeed a very complex and troubling state of affairs, and the repercussions are huge. There can be over-reactions, but one can well understand them.

My husband is a school cleaner, and he has to be extremely careful when cleaning the vast secondary school where he works. He always locks the toilet blocks from the inside when he's in there cleaning, so that no pupils can enter. He never ever speaks to pupils except a short nod of the head in the corridors. He gets the female Team Leader to come and re-open a classroom if a pupil has forgotten something. It's sad, but entirely appropriate nowadays.

My sister has got in touch, and says my cousin's boys were not boarders at St Benedict's, and as day-pupils would 'probably' not have been molested. The suicide of the youngest has never been explained, and remains a mystery to this day.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jan 18 - 01:33 PM

Why is a troll being allowed to stop a discussion on a subject that will probably outlive most of us here
We haven't begun to learn what happened in denominations other than the Catholic Church
The situation in the North of Ireland has hardly been scratched yet
Proper acknowledgement and compensation for all victims has yet to be arrived at
Then the question of why these thing happened will need to be tackled
I can see why those describing themselves as Church people need this to go away
Not going to happen, I'm afraid
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Jan 18 - 03:04 PM

We should not stop targeting clerics, for one very simple reason.

Of all the people in the world who can shield their nefarious sexual predilections behind their positions of trust and authority and their almost untouchable sheen of holiness, it's men of the cloth. In this awful world of sexual abuse, they epitomise the most how it is done most effectively, most undetectably and most damagingly (because it goes on, unseen, for so long). The more we talk about it, the more victims are likely to acquire the bravery to come forward. And that's what decent people should want. If you tell us you've heard enough of it and would rather move on, you're complicit. Simple as that.

One fine day we'll see the big religions being honest, promptly open and fully apologetic for what goes on in their ranks. While they are being shifty, evasive, dilatory and in denial about it, we'll carry on about it, and that is precisely how it should be.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Senoufou
Date: 02 Jan 18 - 04:27 PM

I agree Steve. Clerics have an excellent smoke-screen for their activities and are often seen as immune from any scrutiny because, as you say, they're regarded as holy and sacred. They also, sadly, have access to opportunities in which to abuse. (Children's homes, Church schools, choirboys, Sunday schools, youth clubs and so on)

It's not valid to point to celibacy as a cause, which is often mooted, because married clergy of the Anglican/Protestant persuasion have been charged with abuse offences too.

The important thing about modern times is that child victims feel able to come forward and tell about the attacks, and are believed. This applies to adult rape victims (of both sexes) too, but that is a whole other issue.
And we all need to be vigilant.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Raggytash
Date: 02 Jan 18 - 05:03 PM

Exactly my reason for posting.

Sadly some say there has been more than enough coverage.

Abuse will continue unabated if coverage is not constant, we all have a responsibility to guard the vulnerable in our society.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Jan 18 - 05:39 PM

Not saying for a single second that we shouldn't also shine the spotlight on non-clerical abuse, nor should we smear tbe whole of religion (even though I'm far from being religion's number one fan and that I recognise that religion is in danger of institutionalising the abuse via its inaction, inappropriate responses and denial). But Senoufou and Raggytash are making the case very well. Happy new year, Senoufou, by the way. Roll yer sleeves up, girl!


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Senoufou
Date: 02 Jan 18 - 05:42 PM

Heh heh Steve! Happy New Year to you too!


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: keberoxu
Date: 02 Jan 18 - 06:40 PM

Moreover, I don't see why this thread has to be limited to the atrocities
in the clergy / religious hierarchy.
The headlines and reports of late, after all, are not so limited --
abuse everywhere and by everybody is making news, now.

The author who comes to mind is Andrew Vachss,
whose fiction works -- a long list of novels now --
are informed by his work with abuse of children.
He was interviewed by, I think, New York magazine, years ago, and remarked:
"My problem is not exaggerating in what I write [publish].
My problem is toning it down so that people will believe it."


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Jan 18 - 07:50 PM

We know that the abuse is by no means limited to the clergy, and we know that most clergy are very decent, upright people. The particular concern with the clergy is that they are trusted and regarded as guardians of morality more than almost anyone else (at least, before Joe goes for my jugular, they don't half talk about it from the pulpit a lot). There's no doubt that their institutions have, by dint of denial and inaction, perpetuated the misery endured by thousands of victims. How bad is that. Yes there are thousands of victims within families and within institutions that are supposedly there to protect children, and there are adult victims in Hollywood, etc., the thing universally in common being that the vulnerable are exploited sexually by adults in positions of power. But two things set the religions apart, first, that sexual abuse is, on the face of it, a terrible sin that we would least expect of the clergy of all people, and second, that the abusers are seen to be able to hide behind their institution. That last point is a very serious one and it's one that the religion mostly in question has had serious difficulty in coming to terms with. I say this with some regret in that I was brought up in that religion, taught for seven years by priests and brothers, and, despite all its absurdities that I now see, I saw nothing of this kind of abuse and I acknowledge freely that, despite their delusions, they generally had our best interests at heart. There ya go. No black and white!


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Joe Offer
Date: 02 Jan 18 - 11:00 PM

Damn! Here I was, sizing Steve up for a bullseye on his jugular, and he goes and makes a reasonable statement. Golly, what am I to do now?

Well, I could question Raggytash. He titles the thread, "Another year, same old story." I might propose that the title should be "Another year, same thirty-year-old story." That's the problem with most of these threads. The offenses are not new, and present no evidence of ongoing misconduct. But yet, I have less confidence in the current generation of priests, than I have in those who were ordained with my seminary classmates forty-five years ago. Those who were ordained 40-50 years ago, were "Vatican II priests." Many of them at least tried to fit into the real world. Those who were ordained during the era of John Paul II are a different breed. John Paul II was Pope from 1978 to 2005, but I think his anti-progressive influence is still stronger than the attempts of Pope Francis to bring back the progressive and generous spirit of Vatican II. The John Paul II priests have brought forth a new clericalism, and many of them seem to be in love with all the pomp and circumstance, and with their power and popularity. They seem to have a weakness for teenage girls - I'm not sure that's an improvement over earlier priests' preference for teenage boys. I will say, however, that dioceses are now far less tolerant of "sexual indiscretions" by priests. Most dioceses in the U.S. have "no tolerance" rules, and I think that's becoming the standard throughout the world. Priests tell me that those rules can often be unfair and unreasonable, but dioceses are running scared now and tend to honor even the most unreasonable complaints. So, priests tend to feel suspect simply because they are priests. I don't think I'd like to live like that - to be in a position where I'm automatically suspect, even though I may never have done anything wrong.

Churches are in a difficult position. Of all employers, churches seem to be the ones most likely to be held liable for the sexual indiscretions of their employees, because their clerical employees are held to be acting in the name of their employer 24 hours a day. Lots of other employers have employees who commit sexual offenses, but those employers are far less likely to be held liable for the offenses of their employees. That may be changing in the wake of the offenses of Harvey Weinstein and so many others. It breaks my heart that even Garrison Keillor has met his downfall in this. As a result of Keillor's sins, all the memorable performances on his program will disappear - and that includes a great number of really significant performances by folk musicians.

But that's the deal with all this. The conduct of these sexual predators is truly deplorable - but in the response, the truly good efforts of so many innocent people are brought down with them. I wish there were another way to respond, a way that doesn't affect so many innocent people.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jan 18 - 04:29 AM

"Another year, same thirty-year-old story."
The first recorded reference to clerical abuse was in Medieval times around the time The Book of Kells was being written
Maybe you are only referring to the widespread exposure of clerical abuse Joe
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Jan 18 - 04:34 AM

Well, yes, Jim, it's an old, old story with many chapters. But Raggytash is stuck on the same chapter, over and over again. The current chapter is the Weinstein chapter. No doubt, there will be many more chapters.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Raggytash
Date: 03 Jan 18 - 04:50 AM

Au contraire Joe, I was highlighting yet another case that was reported in the newspapers 2 days ago.

Whether that abuse happened the week before or a decade before or fifty years before matters not one iota.

The fact remains that a member of the clergy, who we are supposed to look to for guidance in our lives, has abused (in this case) young boys.

We cannot sweep it under the carpet and pretend it hasn't happened and with reference to your statement that the churches are held liable for these "sexual indiscretions" (now that's an interesting way to put it) more than other employers that is pure nonsense.

Any other employer with responsibility for the young would dismiss the perpetrator ........ instantly.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jan 18 - 05:25 AM

"Of all employers, churches seem to be the ones most likely to be held liable for the sexual indiscretions of their employees, because their clerical employees are held to be acting in the name of their employer 24 hours a day. Lots of other employers have employees who commit sexual offenses, but those employers are far less likely to be held liable for the offenses of their employees."

There's a case in the news here in Cornwall of a male teacher who was sending inappropriate, sexually-charged texts to pupils and viewing pornography that a pupil had directed him to. There was no alleged sexual physical contact. He has been outed, named, his photo published everywhere in the media (you'll find him on the BBC website if you look) and he's been banned from teaching for life. That's the way to do it. The teaching profession in general, in consequence, remains untainted.

So, Joe, who's responsible, do you think, if priests in general feel that they are always under suspicion, whereas teachers don't? It's not fair - but it's not us to blame, is it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Senoufou
Date: 03 Jan 18 - 05:35 AM

I think any other type of employer would involve the Police first, then after conviction and serving a prison sentence, the perpetrator would never work again. They would be on the Sex Offenders' Register, and in any case, who with any moral compass at all would employ a rapist/paedophile?

I watched a most interesting TV programme about sex offenders in an American prison, and it was obvious that they were not deemed by their psychologists to have 'overcome' their tendencies. They continued to maintain that their victims 'enjoyed' or 'sought' the abuse, and many of them surreptitiously obtained images etc while incarcerated, with which to continue their perversions.

The religious organisations however, as everyone knows, merely moved an offender to a different geographical location, and did not involve the Police at all. The 'Father' Tony McSweeney chap I met in Norwich had already spent much time indulging his evil pleasures in a West London children's home, before being moved to a Norwich parish. I suppose his superiors may have hoped for his Redemption, but they were risking the well-being of young children by giving him the benefit of the doubt. That can never be condoned.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Jack Campin
Date: 03 Jan 18 - 05:47 AM

I think any other type of employer would involve the Police first, then after conviction and serving a prison sentence, the perpetrator would never work again.

If it was the military, the guy would be declared a hero and anybody questioning the honour would be monstered by the tabloids as a terrorist sympathizer.

Here's a different kind of Church-sanctioned abuse. What kind of an excuse for a human being would behave like this?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-42085065


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jan 18 - 06:10 AM

The trouble with stories like that, which is a story of a strangely inadequate man bereft of normal human empathy, is that it's hard to take lessons from it. True, the Church authorities did what we've come to expect, sweep embarrassment under the carpet and prioritise that over the wellbeing of the victim (which she became, but didn't need to be). I'd like to know how that's supposed to chime with the teachings of the man who founded the religion in question. Whether it's symptomatic of a deep institutional sickness is hard to say. But there are too many stories of inhuman behaviour and too many cover-ups. I don't doubt that many priests do many good things. I witnessed a lot of that myself. But the Church has allowed itself to gain such a rotten reputation with regard to unaddressed abuse by people in positions of power that the evil trumps everything and the good, as Shakespeare might have put it, will be interred with its bones.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jan 18 - 06:15 AM

The Irish Government has begun to prepare legislation which will remove the demand by Catholic schools to produce a baptismal certificate as a condition of acceptance - a number of cases have already been highlighted in areas with a high shortage of school places.
The Bishops have announced that any such moves will be met by a barrage of legal challenges.
So an institution with a track record of facilitating child abuse and protecting child abusers will now fight tooth-and nail to maintain access to childern
Is there not something a little obscene (and obvious) about this?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Raggytash
Date: 03 Jan 18 - 06:27 AM

Surely Jim that is so only Catholic children will attend their schools, can't have them mixing with Protestants, Buddist, Baptist and especially Atheists.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Senoufou
Date: 03 Jan 18 - 06:34 AM

The story posted by Jack is very sad indeed, describing rejection rather than active sexual abuse. However it does show how inhumane behaviour can be sanctioned by religious bodies, with no regard to the natural needs/suffering of an offspring - not a very 'Christian' approach, as Steve so rightly states. It also demonstrates the immense secrecy employed by them to cover up situations which they cannot sanction or handle correctly.

I personally think that all religious bodies of every persuasion (including Muslim) should be subject to far more scrutiny than they are at present. They should not be seen as sacrosanct or above inspection. And they should all of course abide by the Laws of our land.

I am a Christian, have been a schoolteacher and have visited offenders in many prisons. I am married to a Muslim, and have made the acquaintance of many nuns and religious sisters from both Roman Catholic and Anglican Orders. Over many decades I have been able to form opinions and see for myself the mindsets of the various types of people I have met. People are complex and the reasons for their behaviours are complex too. But above all, the young and the vulnerable must be protected at all costs, even if this means intrusive, fearless and swingeing scrutiny of all organisations in our society. This isn't 'persecution' but simple safeguarding.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jan 18 - 07:29 AM

"Surely Jim that is so only Catholic children will attend their schools,"
Basically it is so the church can retain their grip on the minds of the children - nothing to do with mixture
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Jan 18 - 02:22 PM

Ah, yes, the old Jim Carroll brainwashing theory. Yes, Jim, it IS likely that teachers may at times express thinking that is not to your liking. But is every idea expressed in school brainwashing, if it does not meet the Jim Carroll imprimatur? I think it's important that we teach children critical thinking, so they can sort things out for themselves. Whether we like it or not, our children will be exposed to unacceptable thinking all their lives. Shielding them from such thoughts would cause greater harm.
I think it's far more important to emphasize critical thinking in education, like the Jesuits do (not that Jim will believe that, since he's such a firm believer in agitprop).
-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jan 18 - 02:56 PM

"Ah, yes, the old Jim Carroll brainwashing theory."
Not mine Joe - the Jesuits summed it up perfectly
"Give me a child until he is seven and I will give you the man"
Out of the horses mouth, you might say
You seem to forget than most of my family were victims of this
Doesn't matter anyway - no establishment that had behaved as the Church has towards children would be allowed a million miles near them
The bishops seem to believe their church has been granted a special dispensation from someone or somewhere
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Iains
Date: 03 Jan 18 - 02:56 PM

Well stated Joe. I have no complaints about the education I received from Jesuits. Quite the reverse in fact.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Jan 18 - 04:14 PM

Oh, and let me call it to your attention that Raggytash reported the 1972-1983 offenses of ex-priest Laurence Soper in this thread (click) on 10 August 2017. So, yeah, it's another year, and Raggytash is still starting threads to repeat the same old story, over and over again.

I don't deny the severity and appalling frequency of the offenses. It's all true, and it's a horrible truth. One could certainly call it an atrocity, this widespread physical and sexual abuse of children by priests and the subsequent coverup by bishops. But this atrocity peaked a generation ago, and the offenses have dwindled dramatically since dioceses worldwide instituted strict controls in the years since the U.S. bishops instituted controls in 2002.

But yet, Raggytash and Jim Carroll and Steve Shaw continue to pour shame on Catholics for these offenses that happened years ago. Of course they're right, since these offenses were indeed horrible. But I wonder if that incessant shaming for thirty-year-old offenses has any constructive effect. And what's the reason for their obsessive shaming of Catholics? Why don't they put as much effort into shaming all the other groups who have to bear the shame of past atrocities?

Almost every group must bear the shame of some sort of atrocity committed in its history. The primary American atrocity is racism - against indigenous people, against the black descendants of slaves, against immigrants - much of that "original sin" of racism in the U.S. is in the past, but much of it continues and may continue forevermore. Germany's "original sin" is fascism and multi-faceted genocide, and Germany will bear the shame of that atrocity forever. Britain's "original sin" is imperialism, an atrocity that continues to have dire consequences in the irreparable damage it did to indigenous cultures all over the world.

So, why aren't there threads posted once or twice every month to shame the Americas and the British and the Germans? For most of you, it's safe for you to pour shame on Catholics, because most of you aren't Catholic (or are no longer Catholic). And many of you pour similar shame on Jews for the offenses of the government of Israel.

It's the same with all atrocities - and with all crime, for that matter. If the offenses are committed by members of other groups, we humans tend to pour shame on those other groups for offenses committed by (usually) minorities within those groups. That way, we can feel smugly superior to "those people" and watch gleefully as they wallow in their shame.

Don't get me wrong. The sex crimes by Catholic priests and bishops were horrible, and we Catholics are both ashamed and outraged by those crimes committed against our children. And although we and our children were victims, we must bear the shame (and cost) of the offenses committed years ago by priests and bishops who are now mostly dead or elderly.

But how long will this shaming last? Yes, we Catholics must bear the shame of these atrocities, but how much external shaming is sufficient? And where is the dividing line between appropriate shaming, and bigotry?

Raggytash, you've started so many threads to shame Catholics, so it's obvious that you're very adept at this shame game. Why don't you start threads shaming some of the groups you identify with? Surely, there must be some skeletons in your closet, too.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Jan 18 - 04:35 PM

Once again, Jim Carroll says:
    Not mine Joe - the Jesuits summed it up perfectly
    "Give me a child until he is seven and I will give you the man"

Of course, that's not what the Jesuits mean. That's how Jim Carroll twists their meaning to fit his own prejudices. The Jesuits have always had high standards for education, standards that have always emphasized the priority of critical thinking. They have often been in trouble with church authorities through the centuries for their emphasis on critical thinking and excellence in education and on respect for indigenous cultures. They were suppressed by various European monarchs through the 18th century, and by the Pope from 1773-1815. And now we have a Jesuit Pope, and many right-wing Catholics are not happy with that at all.

On occasion, I have found fault with the Jesuits for their frequent alliances with the elite and the wealthy and the powerful. But for the most part, Jesuit education has always been excellent and has emphasized intellectual freedom. And in the last half-century, the Jesuits have far more often been allied with the poor and oppressed.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Raggytash
Date: 03 Jan 18 - 05:08 PM

Firstly Joe your statement "And many of you pour similar shame on Jews for the offenses of the government of Israel" is a downright lie. Full stop.

Secondly you state " Why don't you start threads shaming some of the groups you identify with? Surely, there must be some skeletons in your closet, too"

I was brought up as a catholic, by a staunch catholic Mother and attended catholic schools all the way through my infant, junior and senior schools. You have the audacity to tell me me I don't associate with this group !

In a previous post you had the temerity to say that "The offenses are not new, and present no evidence of ongoing misconduct" and that in recent years "They seem to have a weakness for teenage girls"

Is it any wonder, people like myself castigate the various religions when they are so proudly supported by people like yourself.

I have no desire to fall out with you personally but your continued excuses for the catholic church, in particular, cuts no ice with me and I would suggest several others.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jan 18 - 05:30 PM

You only need to look at the abuse Iains inflicts on everyone to know that the Jesuits teach scorn for anyone that disagrees with them. Unless of course he is either not a typical product of a Jesuit education else he is not one at all.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jan 18 - 05:46 PM

Well, Joe, the Catholic Church is a constant target for very good reason, whether you like it or not. A very common attempted getout on Mudcat is to try to dilute the accusations by bringing in all those other miscreants the world over. No-one denies it, Joe. Start threads on it if you like. You'll get takers. For better or worse, we tend to react to what happens to be topical, what's in the news. If the Catholic Church doesn't like being in the news all the time for all the wrong reasons, well the matter is entirely in its own hands. But because of the reluctant, shifty and dilatory nature of its responses so far, it'll take a lot longer than it should have taken to clear things up. That is not our fault.

I'm sure that those excellent Jesuit teachers taught critical thinking in geography, history, English and maths lessons. But over in those religious instruction lessons they taught you to accept, under pain of sin (not to speak of under a crucifix on the wall) mythology as truth. My teachers were the Salesians, who I believe were a little less stern than the Jesuits, and they certainly sowed that brand of confused messages. Been there, Joe. If you think I'm speaking out of date, let's hear you telling your supporter Iains that he's also out of date.

"I was taught by Jesuits and it didn't do me no 'arm..."

Yeah, right...


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jan 18 - 06:35 PM

By the way, Joe, while I take pleasure (frequently to your irritation, as we know) in pointing to the absurdities of all religions in general, no matter of what colour, I take no pleasure whatsoever in the self-inflicted plight of the Catholic Church over the long-running sex abuse scandals. You can check all my postings going back years on that. The decent thing is, not least for the sake of past, present and, hopefully not, future victims, to want this cleared up in a rapid, open, honest and contrite manner. I come from a solid Catholic family and my dad has been going to Sunday Mass for so many decades (over sixty to be precise!) at the same church that no-one would even begin to dare to sit in his spot in the pew. Heaven forfend. I still get on with him. I've always defended the right of anyone to believe what the dickens they like, as long as they don't try to force their beliefs on anyone else (especially children - credit me with consistency on that score if nothing else). I was educated at Catholic schools from four 'til eighteen, and you can see from my demeanour here what a fine, upstanding and morally-sound citizen it turned me into. So no black and white from me!

Er...


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Jan 18 - 06:54 PM

Well, no, I didn't really expect to achieve any understanding or tolerance.

So, Raggytash, when was the last time you went to church, if you claim to be associated with the Catholic Church? If you are a Catholic, then step forward and apologize and do penance and pay reparations for the misdeeds of your priests and bishops. I have never once heard a word of apology from you, and I highly doubt that you are paying anything toward the huge amount of reparations that are being paid to the victims of these crimes.

And what's so wrong with my saying that young Catholic priests seem to have a preference for teenage girls? At least in my diocese, the two young priests who went to prison recently were convicted of having sex with teenage girls. That seems to be a trend in many dioceses, for a number of reasons.

Raggytash, listen to me: I make no excuses for the sexual misconduct that went on in the Catholic Church and that continues to happen to a lesser extent - never in my life have I excused or denied it, although I do seek to understand it so I can help find a way to prevent it.

But somehow, it seems to be that there comes a point when the frequency of your oh-so-righteous shaming of Catholics becomes an act of bigotry. I think you passed that point long ago, and your obsession has become just plain bigotry.

This Soper thing is not the first time you have reported offending priests multiple times, each time as if it were something new.

You are obsessed, my friend. Why is that?

-Joe Offer-

And Steve Shaw, the Jesuit professors I have known, have always taught myth as myth, often much to the chagrin of many who think otherwise. The Jesuit philosophy of education has always been quite different from that of the Salesians, although I will admit that even the Jesuits have a fundamentalist wing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Jan 18 - 07:10 PM

Steve Shaw says:
    The decent thing is, not least for the sake of past, present and, hopefully not, future victims, to want this cleared up in a rapid, open, honest and contrite manner.
I have the same wish, Steve. To a great extent, I think that is finally happening. I screamed and shouted and jumped up and down and wrote letters until 2002, when the Catholic bishops in the U.S. finally enacted strict controls and began to enforce those controls and make reparations. Dioceses all over the world followed suit. What's happening now is mostly cleanup - payment of reparations claims and criminal procedures against those offenders who can be prosecuted. There are no more denials of the offenses that took place - nobody is denying the crimes committed by Soper and so many others. Now it's a matter of cleaning up the horrible aftermath of those offenses. Yes, some dioceses are fighting the million-dollar settlements assessed against them because they simply cannot afford to pay all that, but I think that will be settled eventually.

And yes, the Catholic Church will forever bear the shame of what happened in this terrible scandal. The powerful Catholic Church has been humbled, and I think that is a good thing. But when does it come to a point where the shaming from outside sources is too much? When do we get to the point where we humbly can go on with life and deal with all of the other pressing issues, like immigration and homelessness and racism and sexism and such? Despite its past offenses, the Catholic Church has also been a powerful voice in defense of refugees and the poor and oppressed. When can we be allowed to stop wallowing in shame and take steps to advocate for those in need?

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jan 18 - 08:10 PM

Rotten first post, Joe, very decent second one. The first of the two is rotten because it is so needlessly defensive. The second is grand because it confirms that you are among the true followers of the word of Jesus in that you are shouting out loud against wrongdoing and injustice. I said that the dilatory and reluctant nature of the response of the Church to sex abuse was not only very damaging in an ongoing way to present victims of that abuse but was also what makes the reparations, in that they exist, so drawn out and so hard for us to digest. If your Church is really following the teachings of Christ, then it would go through hell and high water to stop the abuse, and punish the abusers, right here and right now. That's what the teachings of Jesus (don't push me...!) indicate to me. My understanding of them is nowhere near as nuanced as yours, but I do recall something about doing right by the least of the people and by little children. Misused positions of power in order to carry out abuse seems to me to be the polar opposite of that. I kinda like Jesus, mostly, even though he was probably a committee... And he's my Jesus, just as much as he's yours!


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Jan 18 - 09:31 PM

Steve Shaw says: If your Church is really following the teachings of Christ, then it would go through hell and high water to stop the abuse, and punish the abusers, right here and right now.

Well, I think the bishops ARE taking strong and immediate action to stop the abuse and punish the abuses; and also to offer treatment and compensation and apology to victims. However, I think they're doing it mostly because of fear of further lawsuits and claims, and not because they are following the teachings of Christ.

But my complaint about the proliferation of these threads still stands. I think that every Catholic bears the burden of shame for this scandal, and I think they know it. There's no doubt in my mind that the Catholic Church has been humbled, and rightfully so - and whatever it does in the future, it must do with humility.

But what then? How do we deal with the sins of the past? Must we be burdened by them forevermore? Isn't there a point where outside people recognize that the organization has been brought down and has paid the price, and now it's time to go on? In these endless discussions, Mudcatter have hurled everything in their barrage of blame, back to the 15th century Inquisition and before, and they have continued this onslaught for almost 20 years in threads that appear at least once a month. What is the constructive effect of such a flood of shaming?

As a Catholic, I bear the shame of all the wrongdoing of my Catholic Church, and there is something right in my having to acknowledge that shame. As an American, I bear the shame for another long list of misdeeds by my country - and I think that it's right that I bear that blame, too.

But where does it go from there? How does this whole puzzle of blame fit together. And from that humbled position of shame, how do we go forward?

All of us humans have shame to bear. How do we deal with it? And perhaps more importantly, how do we deal with the shame that others have to bear - attack them for it?

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Jan 18 - 08:51 AM

Must we be burdened by them forevermore? Isn't there a point where outside people recognize that the organization has been brought down and has paid the price, and now it's time to go on?

No, I don't think so, Joe. It has to be a forevermore thing to help prevent it happening again. Sins of a far greater scale were performed by the Nazis (queue Godwins law...) so the world must be reminded of that constantly lest it happen again. Yet we are still seeing an upsurge of national socialism here in the UK, in Europe and in the USA. If we drop the reminders of what happened in the past people will forget and it will happen all over again. In my opinion that is.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Jack Campin
Date: 04 Jan 18 - 09:51 AM

Why don't you start threads shaming some of the groups you identify with? Surely, there must be some skeletons in your closet, too

That kind of rhetorical stunt is called "what-about-ery" in Northern Ireland (which saw quite a lot of it in the period when paramilitaries were exchanging atrocities).

It's a disgusting abuse of the human capacity for moral reasoning.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Joe Offer
Date: 04 Jan 18 - 10:33 AM

I don't think so, check Jack. This Thread is about a thirty-year-old series of offenses that Raggytash had already reported last August. No new misconduct, No new insights, No new anything.
And the fact of the matter is that physical and sexual child abuse happens everywhere, all the time. Placing emphasis on events that happened 30 years ago, tends to help us forget That which is happening right now. We all know child abusers, and most of those abusers are not members of the clergy. Child abuse is a horrible problem, And we must come to an understanding of it. This constant shaming of others, only serves to hide the blame that we all must bear.

Joe


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Jan 18 - 10:37 AM

I think we must agree to disagree on that then, Joe. Those who ignore the past are destined to repeat it in my opinion.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jan 18 - 10:51 AM

"Of course, that's not what the Jesuits mean."
That is how it is taken and basically, that's the way it is - or was, till thee chi rape scandal undermined the power of the church
"But yet, Raggytash and Jim Carroll and Steve Shaw continue to pour shame on Catholics"
Please to not stoop to untruths Joe - these are criticisms of the behaviour of the Church - it has nothing whatever to do with "Catholics" or even their beliefs
If it had , Id be throwing stones though most of my relatives and neighbours windows.
Are you really seeking "understanding and tolerance" for the way these people behaved given the way many churchmen are still behaving towards the victim of these crimes?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Mr Red
Date: 04 Jan 18 - 12:07 PM

Not just Catholics. When I mention the Mennonites to a Canadian friend, he wrinkles his nose and sighs, murmuring "child abuse".

Religion is a force for good, when it is good. But, sadly, it is administered by humans. That is it's weakness.

Now if God were properly in charge - she would set it right!


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Jan 18 - 06:31 PM

Religion is a force for good,

Absolutely! As proof, I give you Roy Moore & Donald Trump.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Jan 18 - 07:08 PM

Religion has never been a force for good. Let's not dwell on persecutions visited on one religious group by another down the millennia, on bigotry, on institutional antisemitism by the Catholic Church down the centuries, on papal misrule and corruption in the Renaissance, on acquiescence in the Holocaust, on institutionalised sexual exploitation of children, on the Christian Brothers, on the Magdalen Laundries, on Mother Teresa's vile exploitation of the poorest and most vulnerable...

Yes, religions teach (but do not necessarily practise) morality. I'm a critical friend of the committee known as Jesus myself. But there's a rather wicked assumption, in the face of all this, underlying the assertion that religion is a force for good. It's that we wouldn't be good unless we had religion to make us good. That is religion's biggest arrogance and its biggest conceit, and it simply isn't true. In microcosm apropos of that, I went to the funeral of a close relative years ago. The service was religious because the rest of his family was religious. The presiding vicar declared that he'd been such a good, upstanding man because of his Christian upbringing. We knew better. He certainly was a very fine, upstanding man, one of the best I've ever known and who we all revered for his kindness, generosity, good humour and sense of justice. But the only time he'd been near a church in fifty years was when he was dragged, kicking and screaming almost, to weddings and funerals. Like I said, microcosm. Revealing nonetheless.

It's impossible to argue that we'd be better off without religion because we never get a chance to try it. But it is possible to argue that the glorious reality of the world is a damn sight more magical that the abject hocus-pocus peddled by religion's control freaks.

Not going to go down well, this, is it...


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jan 18 - 07:33 PM

"Absolutely! As proof, I give you Roy Moore & Donald Trump."
Sorry lads - ou fellers really need to separate religion from how it is used and abused
I have not need for either, but I have a great warmth for the real Christians' who accept it as a guide for life rather than a meaningless dogma
Two songs that have followed me through my life were This one of Woodie's and THIS by Ewan (just spotted my photograph on this clip - whee!!)
After fid=fty years I still get an enormous buzz out of singing Ewan's, especially to locals here - I'd sing Woodie's if I sang American songs
The greatest betrayal of all the events has been of true believers - that is shown by the numbers now leaving the church
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Jan 18 - 07:44 PM

Come on, Jim, sing Woody's songs! I knew which one it was going to be before I even clicked.

Taking the message of Jesus as a guide for living is fine, it can't be gainsaid. But a good life can equally well be lived without it, or even in spite of it. I can ride my bike without stabilisers and I can walk with head held high without crutches. Christianity has us all as wretches who must be saved. Well I'll manage without being saved if it's all right with y'all! See you down there with all those priests and popes and Mother Teresa!


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Jan 18 - 08:20 PM

I prefer This One, Jim.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Jan 18 - 09:32 PM

Senefou I noticed we had the same vigilant conclusion but in different threads.


I wonder how many of us have wished for equal justice in these filthy old stories. It doesn't have to be an eye for eye, it doesn't have to be any more cruel or unusual a punishment than the crime. It just has to be applied equally without a single get out of jail card for the pious or rich or anyone. I hate that some guilty are excused by privilege or entitlement.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05 Jan 18 - 12:06 AM

Jim Carroll says: I have not need for either, but I have a great warmth for the real Christians' who accept it as a guide for life rather than a meaningless dogma

I can agree with that. Religion is something practiced by both good and bad people. The good people use it for good, and the others don't. I despise those who use religion for ill, just as much as any of you do. Maybe moreso, because they give the rest of us believers such a bad name.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Mr Red
Date: 05 Jan 18 - 04:07 AM

Sorry lads - you fellers really need to separate religion from how it is used and abused

As I said. But we have to be objective. There is no doubt that human cultures, and by inference**, human physiology evolved through the forming of tribes, and allegiances.
And religions, howsoever described, were central to that. Think Stonehenge and pyramids. Without religion you would have to coerce the masses to comply with more food, more riches, or more lashing.

We may have forgotten how to sculpt stone in 2 ton lumps so flat they need no mortar, but we have diamond saws now. And we still marvel at sculptors' efforts. There is still a place for religion, but not everywhere, nor for everyone.

Mr Red (devout Atheist).

** retain the context before you spout.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Jan 18 - 04:35 AM

"I prefer This One, Jim."
Same song Steve
Religion is an attempt by manking to explain what they see around them and is probably as old as mankind itself
Organised religion is when different sections of mankind began to squabble about it
The church is when somebody decided there was a profit and a career in it so they marketed and adapted it to suit their ambitions - privatised belief, to put it in modern language.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05 Jan 18 - 04:46 AM

Jim Carroll says: Religion is an attempt by mankind to explain what they see around them and is probably as old as mankind itself

I think maybe I would say, "Religion is an attempt by mankind to seek meaning in what they see around them and is probably as old as mankind itself."

Organized religion is a necessary structure to allow for people to gather - and it carries all the problems of such organizations.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jan 18 - 04:54 AM

Organized religion is a necessary structure to allow for people to gather

Religion is not required for people to gather at all. They gather at concerts, festivals and football matches. Mind you, some would say the last one is a religion :-)

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Jan 18 - 07:34 AM

""Religion is an attempt by mankind to seek meaning in what they see around them"
That is philosophy Joe - something you would not associate with primitive man
I think it's been established that religion arose to explain life in order to control it to the advantage of the people - the elements, crop growth, etc
Basicc anthropology
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 05 Jan 18 - 07:55 AM

I think it's been established that religion arose to explain life in order to control it to the advantage of the people

Some would say that religion arose to control it to the advantage of the priesthood (or clan chiefs or whatever) rather than for the benefit of the people.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Jan 18 - 08:12 AM

It'll be a religion tonight during the Liverpool-Everton derby match (Where DO they put that third set of goalposts...?), Dave.

Religion is a pretty poor attempt at explaining anything. It routinely seeks by far the least likely explanations, those based on myth and magic and the supernatural, always studiously avoiding real evidence, "explanations" which not only can't explain anything but, worse, can't be explained themselves. We all have our irrational moments but I think it's quite likely that inchoate mystical ideas were pounced on opportunistically by community bigwigs who saw the potential for using myth and the human predilection for letting imagination run riot to generate awe and fear and to allow them to control people. Whatever benefits religion has achieved are simply accidental.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 05 Jan 18 - 08:29 AM

Whatever benefits religion has achieved are simply accidental.
I believe that the 'rule of law', which in many countries is based on Judeo-Christian values is hardly accidental.
Those originating the laws (whether Moses & Christ, or the priests) provided a sound footing for future laws.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Jan 18 - 09:02 AM

"Some would say that religion arose to control it"
Perhaps Nigel, but the churches came long after the rituals, which in many ways resembled the firing of guns into apple trees to ensure a good crop as still being remembered in some of the wassailing ceremonies
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Jack Campin
Date: 05 Jan 18 - 09:08 AM

This Thread is about a thirty-year-old series of offenses that Raggytash had already reported last August. No new misconduct, No new insights, No new anything.

Maybe not where you are, but the details of how the case has been more or less wrapped up have been front-page news in the UK, and it was a minor story back in August. I hadn't heard of it before, and a case of such monstrous things being done in one of the most boringly bourgeois bits of England would have stuck in my mind.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jan 18 - 09:13 AM

Those originating the laws (whether Moses & Christ, or the priests) provided a sound footing for future laws.

In which case I guess that China, which has had very little influence from Jewish blokes in long frocks, must be a wasteland of lawlessness. It just goes to show what a good job those religious leaders did if people can still seriously believe that without religion the world would have descended into anarchy and probably destroyed itself before it had chance to develop.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Senoufou
Date: 05 Jan 18 - 09:17 AM

What irks me most about the major religions is their inherent misogyny.
Things may be slowly changing, but most of them put women at a very low position in their order of things.
This is particularly so in my husband's religion of Islam. But reading the Bible (especially the Old Testament) one would conclude that women were of little or no importance at all, and were there to be controlled and used.
I also abhor the homophobia which is still seen as relevant in many belief systems.
When abuse takes place, it is often with a sense of entitlement, dominance and superiority (for example, the Rochdale Muslims' abuse of white girls, whom they saw as mere kafirs) Very dangerous...


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Jan 18 - 09:43 AM

Its been 35 years since I first equated elements of religion with hypnosis.
Latin: religio - to bind/tie together
hypnosis can bind thoughts and actions together

The Jesuits got wind I was making this connection.
They were not interested in the nuance of this, they only wanted to determine if this publicized concept was a danger to them.
They called me to their establishment to examine me.
There were 4 priests and no women
I had only started my 4 year participation in all the major religions so it was clear I knew little about religion but I could claim proficiency in science.
I told them that I preferred to have a doubting agnosticism.
I knew of the scholarly foundation of the Jesuit order so I didn't expect an attack but attack they did.

They invested in a big fancy hypnosis office and practitioner of their own but from a Jesuit Christian POV.
I told them later it was a matter of caring, I don't care and it doesn't matter.
Several years later they had a change of heart and wanted to be friends. Perhaps they still thought I was an enemy to be kept close but not being sure I cut all ties. I was still studying religion by practicing and I was up to Buddhism.

What I took away from the Jesuits is that like a military they attack first and then decide what to do and why...but intelligently.
I left town soon thereafter.Its been 35 years since I first equated elements of religion with hypnosis.
Latin: religio - to bind/tie together
hypnosis can bind thoughts and actions together

The Jesuits got wind I was making this connection.
They were not interested in the nuance of this, they only wanted to determine if this publicized concept was a danger to them.
They called me to their establishment to examine me.
There were 4 priests and no women
I had only started my 4 year participation in all the major religions so it was clear I knew little about religion but I could claim proficiency in science.
I told them that I preferred to have a doubting agnosticism.
I knew of the scholarly foundation of the Jesuit order so I didn't expect an attack but attack they did.

They invested in a big fancy hypnosis office and practitioner of their own but from a Jesuit Christian POV.
I told them later it was a matter of caring, I don't care and it doesn't matter.
Several years later they had a change of heart and wanted to be friends. Perhaps they still thought I was an enemy to be kept close but not being sure I cut all ties. I was still studying religion by practicing and I was up to Buddhism.

What I took away from the Jesuits is that like a military they attack first and then decide what to do and why...but intelligently.
I left town soon thereafter.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Jan 18 - 09:55 AM

Uh oh I am repeating stories like Trump


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Jan 18 - 10:54 AM

You've highlighted not just accidental little peccadillos of religions, Senoufou, but inevitable, inherent and institutionalised problems caused by male hegemonies, which is what all major religions are.

As Moses and Jesus probably never actually existed, Nigel...

One of the tenets of organised religions has always been that we must succumb to a higher power in order to keep ourselves in line. Not one scrap of evidence has ever been presented to confirm that. The suspicious thing is that, without that tenet, religions would fall apart. No wonder it's so tightly clung to.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: keberoxu
Date: 07 Jan 18 - 04:45 PM

again, a space opened up for consideration of man's abuse of fellow man
has been polarized around religion.
Yes, man's abuse of fellow man is incomplete without the well-documented history of organized religion;
and that history has enabled and support continued abuse.

It is also a fact
that abuse thrives in places where religion is unwelcome,
and I didn't read that in a book --
I learned it in a household that maintained a facade of humane tolerance
and made religion unwelcome,
while generations of abuse were as carefully sheltered
as any other part of the family legacy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jan 18 - 05:33 PM

No-one denies that, and in fact I've referred to it in this thread. But organised religions are a special case of revered and held-sacred institutions which offer the opportunity for miscreants, trusted by the people, to be harboured. Being that special case gives them a special responsibility. We want to see that addressed, openly and honestly and a damn sight more promptly than we've been used to seeing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jan 18 - 01:31 PM

Another case of child abuse by a football coach in the news today.
Then there is child abuse by teachers, family members and friends, grooming gangs, youth organisation volunteers, people traffickers and all the others.
Why does only clerical abuse matter to you?

As Joe said, it looks like just an excuse to attack religion.
Just bigotry.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Jan 18 - 02:19 PM

"Another case of child abuse by a football coach in the news today.
Then there is child abuse by teachers, family members and friends, grooming gangs, youth organisation volunteers, people traffickers and all the others.
"

Keith - and how many of that lot would claim to be respectable people of faith...???


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 Jan 18 - 03:31 PM

No the professor is quite right to mention the case in the news today of a football coach who has been found guilty of child abuse.

Yet another man trusted by parents to nurture, care and educated their children, yet another example of appalling abuse of those same children and the trust of the parents.

BUT, I have to add, that unlike some clergy he was not moved to another area when that abuse was discovered and allowed by his employers to continue that self same abuse.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Jan 18 - 03:36 PM

You are clearly so sound in your adherence to your religion that you really should be laughing this off, Mr Acheson. But you don't, because you aren't, are you. You are so insecure and it shows: your favoured means of defence is to attack us and call us bigots. Likewise, you can't take the slightest criticism of Israel or the Tory party or of Nigel Farage. As a matter of fact I've just been through this thread and I've found four posts of mine (there may be more) in which I go to pains to point out that this not just about the clergy. Your resort to "they did it as well, Miss" is a long-discredited tactic here and I'm amazed that you still try to use it. You are reverting to your childhood. Take a look in your mirror and observe a real bigot of the most detestable kind. Then go and have a lie down.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jan 18 - 04:50 AM

Steve, if you mean that I have doubts about my faith, you are right.
Be wary of anyone who says they do not.
I just wonder why you always and only discuss one kind of child abuse and ignore all others.

Pfr,
Keith - and how many of that lot would claim to be respectable people of faith...???

Any of them could.

Steve,
Likewise, you can't take the slightest criticism of Israel or the Tory party or of Nigel Farage.

Yes I can, but I have challenged criticisms that I consider unfair or unreasonable or plain false.

Your resort to "they did it as well, Miss"

I do not. I just point out that you unfairly single out certain groups for criticism while ignoring other and often much worse cases.
I see that as bigotry.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jan 18 - 05:01 AM

Read my post again, cloth-ears. Especially the bit where I said that I have not just confined my criticism to clerics. Repeating untruths like a robot will never make them true, another lesson that you have still to learn.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jan 18 - 05:27 AM

Especially the bit where I said that I have not just confined my criticism to clerics

Remind me of any other group you have attacked over child abuse.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jan 18 - 06:03 AM

Just evaporate, please, troll.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jan 18 - 08:45 AM

You have never attacked any group over child abuse except clerics who you have singled out endlessly.

Again you resort to abuse when your case crumbles.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jan 18 - 08:50 AM

I told you. Look through the thread. Now please stop telling lies.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jan 18 - 10:21 AM

I have just read all your posts on this thread again.
I was not lying. You have never attacked any other group on this.
All you have done is to attempt to justify your always and only singling out the catholic Church.

Joe had it right days ago.
"But somehow, it seems to be that there comes a point when the frequency of your oh-so-righteous shaming of Catholics becomes an act of bigotry. I think you passed that point long ago, and your obsession has become just plain bigotry."


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Jan 18 - 10:29 AM

There you have it Steve, stating the truth has now become bigotry.

Incidentally the football coach referred to earlier has not been found guilty he is on trial.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Jack Campin
Date: 09 Jan 18 - 10:36 AM

When abuse takes place, it is often with a sense of entitlement, dominance and superiority (for example, the Rochdale Muslims' abuse of white girls, whom they saw as mere kafirs)

The origin of the Rochdale case was a generation ago.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2006/jan/12/childrensservices.uknews

The council were set up by a gang of American Christian fundies and their British feminist accomplices into conducting a witch-hunt against non-existent Satanic child abusers. They made such catastrophic fools of themselves that nobody in Rochdale would dare raise the issue of sexual abuse of children for many, many years. And the real abusers figured that out. The panic merchants turned Rochdale into a child rapists' amusement park.

A bit more on the background to the Satanic abuse panic:

http://www.spiked-online.com/newsite/article/13119

With enemies like Ray Wyre and Beatrix Campbell, child abusers don't need friends.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jan 18 - 10:43 AM

There you have it Steve, stating the truth has now become bigotry.

No Rag.
Singling out only one group for criticism while ignoring all others however bad is bigotry.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Jan 18 - 11:03 AM

From: Raggytash
There you have it Steve, stating the truth has now become bigotry.

Incidentally the football coach referred to earlier has not been found guilty he is on trial.


And how many of the reports you place here about 'Clerical abuse' deal with people who have been "found guilty"?


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Jan 18 - 11:09 AM

All of them Nigel.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jan 18 - 11:25 AM

"I have just read all your posts on this thread again.
I was not lying. You have never attacked any other group on this.
All you have done is to attempt to justify your always and only singling out the catholic Church."

All very checkable by anyone who cares to go through the thread. On at least four, if not more, occasions, I've said that the abuse is by no means the exclusive territory of clerics. I've said that there are good priests who have done many good works. I've said good things about my own Catholic upbringing and said that I never saw any of this kind of abuse. If you wish to ferret around to find a form of words that indicates that I'm on a mission to do nothing but attack clerics as my career, go ahead. It's what you do and we all know it. And it makes you a liar because you are deliberately trying to misrepresent the position I've taken all through this thread.

"Joe had it right days ago.
'But somehow, it seems to be that there comes a point when the frequency of your oh-so-righteous shaming of Catholics becomes an act of bigotry. I think you passed that point long ago, and your obsession has become just plain bigotry.'"

Yes, but YOU don't have it right. That remark was directed at Raggytash, not me. So you claim to have read the thread. Well your reading skills aren't up to much then, are they?


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jan 18 - 11:33 AM

"Singling out only one group for criticism while ignoring all others however bad is bigotry."

Whenever we discuss Israel you routinely single out the Palestinians and their allies for excoriation but you will never accept the slightest criticism of the Israeli regime or their US supporters. And you obsessively single out the Labour Party to the exclusion of all other organisations as if it were at the root of all antisemitism. And don't even begin to think of making this a thread about Israel. I state this only to demonstrate the laughable hypocrisy of your remark.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: keberoxu
Date: 09 Jan 18 - 12:25 PM

Carry on, if you wish, with that which fuels your fire.
My post need not concern you,
as I'm not interested in getting personal.

My participation in online conversations and fora/forums is limited to public computer stations, as my home has no computer.
So the public libraries see a great deal of me, as I am a regular at their computers.

This post is coming from one such library branch.
To walk from the door from the parking lot to the computer station table,
it is necessary to pass the bulletin board, and easy to glance there in order to see
if there is anything new and interesting.

Well, the Reverend Kevin Arnett is featured in a notice on the board,
which notice was not there yesterday.
I had never before heard of Arnett, or his "tribunal"
of which he gave public notice, within the past ten years,
about its foundation/existence.

It isn't this branch that Arnett is traveling to, but a library branch
in the same network, literally within ten miles up the same route
and into the next town over.
The notice advertizes Arnett's three-hour engagement/appearance there
as part of his tour promoting this tribunal.

Mudcatter Gnu knows who Rev. Kevin Arnett is because the Gnu lives in Canada,
and Arnett and his tribunal are of Canadian provenance;
also because Gnu reads The Tyee for its news content,
and The Tyee has for years been keeping people informed about Arnett.

For that matter,
a Mudcat search for forum threads about Arnett proved fruitful just now. Other Mudcatters have posted about Arnett in the past.

After doing some searching online about Arnett and his tribunal, though,
I am going to let the meeting happen without me.
I don't like what I hear/read;
not that there is no merit in the issues to which he draws attention,
but that Arnett seems so desperately polarized and fanatical
as to be capable of doing harm to his fellow man in the name of doing good.

This post has said very little about what Arnett seeks to expose,
nor am I going to -- it's pertinent to this topic of course.
I'm just concerned about not getting carried away and not losing balance.
Thanks for listening.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Jan 18 - 12:47 PM

I've just had a quick look at wilispooks, interesting to say the least Keberoxu. I am shortly to go out for the night but will read up some more tomorrow.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: keberoxu
Date: 09 Jan 18 - 01:33 PM

Did you mean to say "wikispooks" rather than wilispooks?
My attempt to retrace your steps just now, Raggytash,
was a dead end at wilispooks, but wikispooks worked.

Here's how all this looks to me.
If the Rev. Kevin Arnett were the "con man"
which some online responses make him out to be,
then he would have been debunked some years ago,
because he has been before the public eye longer than I realized.

Would that the problem were so simple.
Arnett appears to be nothing if not human,
and what comes to my mind in evaluating the information about him is
"but for the grace of *** , there go I."

Arnett's feelings and convictions seem sincere, they are certainly intense
and these feelings and convictions have stood up
to years of intimidation and rejection.
Does that justify not knowing how much you are making a bad thing worse?

I fear that a public figure as fanatical as this one
requires a lengthy and uncomfortable commitment to therapy and counseling
before he can hold himself accountable
for the intrusions and problems he has visited
on the very people to whom he ministers.

That is asking, sadly, a very great deal indeed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Jack Campin
Date: 09 Jan 18 - 02:36 PM

If the Rev. Kevin Arnett were the "con man" which some online responses make him out to be, then he would have been debunked some years ago

Since when did being debunked shut a celebrity up?


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Jan 18 - 11:06 PM

The real problem one suspects for abusers is that we have become an articulate, literate and critical society. There are many parts of the world where those wielding power are not subject to the checks and balances and surveillance that nowadays afford us protection.

many dark corners...i think we can all sense that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Mr Red
Date: 10 Jan 18 - 04:01 AM

football matches. Mind you, some would say the last one is a religion

Oh, I think calling it a religion is understating it rather a lot (aka huge). It is tribal, it is cash cow. It is politics so much that colour-blind prime ministers have to avow to like West Ham, when they mean Aston Vanilla ('cos they're easily licked).
Presumably prime ministers are so called because they only see in primary (political) colours!

And if we are talking abuse, why does blame for disasters at football stadia fall solely at the feet of those sorting the mess? Answer because anyone pointing out "this or that measure was the solution to crowd behaviour" is roasted by the fans. It is easier to name a scapegoat than blame a mass of human lemmings. Distasters rarely have a single contributory cause.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jan 18 - 04:27 AM

"Singling out only one group for criticism while ignoring all others however bad is bigotry."
And hiding behind the fact that "others do it" to defend it is gross hypocrisy
We deal with Christianity because that is what effects us, living in a so called 'Christian' country - it was Christians that committed these horrific crimes and it was the Christian Church which facilitated and defended it - on an international scale as it has been revealed
This has never been an attack on the religion or on Chrstions per se, as you persistently claim
It is an exposé of the criminal clergy and the criminal hierarchy who covered up their criminality and passed them on to other parishes and eventually other countries so they were able to continue to rape and abuse children
THey still keep the bulk of those details hidden
No other religion has ever behaved in that manner
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jan 18 - 06:32 AM

Football non-fans constantly attacking football for being tribal is, ironically, tribal. So you don't like football. Well a lot of people do. A couple of years ago I tried, months in advance, to get a ticket for a relatively humdrum, non-crucial home match at Anfield (Liverpool vs Villa). No chance.

There a lot wrong with football. Players' pay at the top of the game is scandalous. Most league footballers don't get tens of thousands a week, however. We tend to dwell on the most egregious examples, which are actually a small minority. Ticket prices are outlandish in consequence (though you'd pay approximately as much for a decent seat at the opera or for a symphony concert). There's far too much corporate involvement. Some top clubs are bankrolled by billionaires who can buy or sell clubs at will and that's not really fair. Transfer fees at the top are ludicrous, and they are boosted further by parasitic agents taking huge slices of dosh. Television rights are bought for billions a year. We all pay for that eventually via advertising, even though you have to pay to see the matches on the telly. Which I do.

But wassup? It's a perfect example of capitalism in action. So is Tesco, Asda and Morrisons, but I still use them. Another thing that will, I know, never convince the footie-haters: at its best, which is often, it's a beautiful, flowing game that requires consummate skill, tactics and fitness. It isn't popular for nothing. And its popularity, whether you like it or not, crosses class boundaries. It's a great diversion for millions of people who haven't got much colour in their lives. And what's so wrong with diversions? And, let's face it, Liverpool FC are simply the greatest in waiting...

Sorry for the, er, diversion...


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jan 18 - 09:44 AM

Steve, I know Joe's remark was directed at Rag, but it applies to you also.
You may have referred to other kinds of offenders here but you have never criticised any group but clerics. I do not lie.

What you said about me is not true.
I discussed anti-Semitism within Labour. No other party has had such issues in recent years.
I may have put Israel's side of the story when I felt it was being unfairly criticised by your group, but I have never singled out Palestinians for criticism.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jan 18 - 09:46 AM

Hey, kind Mr/Ms Moderator sir/madam, would you please delete that last post of mine as it clearly has no place in this thread. Naturally, it's Mr Red's fault that it's here. Now that we have a dedicated footie thread I've copied and pasted it over there. I thank you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jan 18 - 09:47 AM

I'm past caring, Keith. We know you only too well.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Raggytash
Date: 10 Jan 18 - 10:00 AM

THIS POST IS ADDRESSED TO STEVE SHAW ONLY.

The wazzock can't even get it into his head that you, I and some other people are not an organised gang Steve.

If he can't grasp that simple concept you have bugger all chance with anything else.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jan 18 - 10:20 AM

Rag, PMs are available.
If you post a comment on the forum, anyone is entitled to respond whoever you address it to.
Childish name calling, so typical of your group, does not alter that fact.

You form a group of posters who dominate certain threads.
You all hold almost identical views and support each other while all attacking anyone who puts a differing view.

Politically your views are at the extreme end of the spectrum, but here you can posture as if you are mainstream, marginalising and ridiculing anyone who disagrees.
Your behaviour discourages decent people with mainstream views from contributing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Raggytash
Date: 10 Jan 18 - 10:26 AM

See what I mean Steve !!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Jan 18 - 10:27 AM

SADGIT


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Jan 18 - 10:52 AM

Keith - yes that's right innit...

...you're the mainstream and everyone who disagrees is an organised red under the bed conspiracist threat to normality,
and should all be sent packing back to Russia...!!!!!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jan 18 - 11:38 AM

Happily married for 41 years, mortgage for most of 'em, two kids who went to local schools who both grew up dead nice, played Irish on gobiron down t'pub 'til started to go deaf, beaten up Ford Focus, Mrs Steve making marmalade in kitchen this very minute, fan of Liverpool FC, been out to Lidl for me veg this morning then B&M for me wild bird food, fly Easyjet for me hols, vote Labour (only political organisation I've ever been a member of)...

Yeah, meet Mr Extremist!


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: keberoxu
Date: 10 Jan 18 - 11:48 AM

Said it yesterday, bears repeating today:

Carry on, if you wish, with that which fuels your fire.
My series of posts need not concern you,
as I'm not interested in getting personal.

Bit of a lost cause, this is.
The Rev. Kevin Annett, THAT's the correct spelling of his real name.
My posts of 9 January consistently misspell his last name as Arnett, and that is incorrect.
But who cares ... maybe Kevin Annett cares, maybe his father William S. Annett cares,
but their years in the public eye, and their messages and what they have to say,
never mind what has been done to others,
none of that interests in the slightest
those of you who are busy dancing the dance with each other.
Why do I even bother.

Maybe the Annett noises interest Raggytash a little bit.
Everyone else has better things to do.

After my two posts on this subject -- misspelled names and all --
my online searches continued apace.
I found some things that made me freeze.
And it wasn't what you think.
It wasn't the topics on which Kevin Annett has raised his voice since roughtly 1995.

It was the relationship between a father in his eighties,
and his adult son.
That absolutely hit me where it hurts.
It hit home harder than all of the stories about Canadian atrocities.
Because, as I said before,
but for the grace of ***, there go I.

That father-son pairing, the things they say about each other and the world they live in,
on line and for everybody else to read,
there is much to ponder there.
Would a separate thread be better suited to such disclosures?
Why bother posting any of it here?


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Raggytash
Date: 10 Jan 18 - 11:55 AM

Where do you get Savile oranges at this time of year?


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Raggytash
Date: 10 Jan 18 - 11:56 AM

Or even Saville Oranges come to that!


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: keberoxu
Date: 10 Jan 18 - 12:04 PM

Oranges.

I

GIVE

UP.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jan 18 - 12:23 PM

Or even Seville! Mrs Steve got 'em yesterday in Lansdown Dairy in Bude. The marmalade is now potted and the house smells great.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jan 18 - 12:42 PM

Keberoxu, Kevin Annett has made himself into an extremely controversial figure. After a lot of googling I can't get my head round it and don't know whether I should be siding with him or not. Whatever his motivations are, his tactical sense is questionable. The sword of truth requires directness and a reining in of emotional grandstanding. The latter is the quickest way to get your adversaries to set to work on you as a person rather than face the accusations against them. He may be right but he doesn't appear to be doing it right. I'll keep looking.


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Subject: the Rev. Kevin Annett
From: keberoxu
Date: 10 Jan 18 - 01:21 PM

Thanks, Steve. I figured nobody was listening before you posted just now.

A couple of things to consider.
Ronald Ross Annett has life-year dates 1895 - 1988, think I got those right.
His birthplace was Ontario.
When the Great War happened, R. Ross Annett enlisted.
He was at Vimy Ridge, no less -- something called "the pimple" ?!
This Annett, as you can see from his dates, survived, although
he was wounded in action and I believe wounded so as to be lamed. Something about his hip.

R. Ross Annett left Canada for the United States,
where he submitted stories to the Saturday Evening Post
about life in farm country in the province of Alberta.
I have yet to read any of these stories. If I hear right,
the characters are fictional but based on childhood experience.
Of his wartime experience, it seems, he never wrote.

The Saturday Evening Post stories made R. Ross Annett a Who's-Who type celebrity;
to this day there is a literary award, in Canada, with his name on it,
but I don't know who established the award or endowed/financed it.

I know of three sons from Ronald Ross Annett, perhaps there were other children.
William S. Annett, at latest report, is in his eighties and living in Florida, from where, for a number of years, he has written articles which appear online.
Jack Dunning Annett's dates are 1925 - 2011, according to an online obituary page for a periodical from the city?/town? of Consort, Alberta. This man's remains were to be interred in Consort. While Jack was born in the United States, his childhood, according to this obituary, took him to Consort and he spent his growing-up years in Alberta. Although he, too, had a lifelong love of literature and writing, he made his profession as an architect. There is nothing in his obituary about whether or not he was ever in the armed forces. His brother Bill is named among the "survivors" in the obituary. His parents are acknowledged by name.
Oh! Here's the answer to my question. Besides William S. Annett, the surviving brother,
the Consort, Alberta obituary (looking at it now)
says that Jack Dunning Annett was predeceased by, amongst others,

"brothers Bob and Ron and sister Carol."
So that totals five children of Ronald Ross Annett.

One of those two brothers was killed in action during World War II.
Ah! Just found him I think -- online now in another "tab."
The year before Jack Dunning Annett was born in the US,
this brother arrived, also born in the US:
Robert Ivan Loucks Annett, 1924 - 1944.
The name "Loucks" comes from the ancestry of his mother, Lenora or "Lennye," wife of R. Ross Annett.
A military cemetery in Western Europe is his final resting place. France maybe?

Oh dearie me.
I don't want to write anything more about William S. "Bill" Annett.
Most of what I could find out about him is written by him,
and it smells . . . it just plain smells.
I don't want to repeat it here, honestly.
If you are curious, you can put the search engine through its paces
and look for it yourself.
Well, suffice to underline that Bill Annett takes journalism and writing very personally, and is highly opinionated. Grandstanding, that's Steve's word above, is easily discerned in Bill Annett's opinions and convictions.
I could print some of them here. I won't though.

I know of two sons of William S. Annett.
One of them is his namesake.
The other is Kevin Daniel Annett, ordained by the United Church of Canada
and disbarred, it appears, by same in 1995.

Kevin Annett strikes me as a frustrated journalist,
ministerial ordination or no;
notoriety is more than useful to him, I fear he craves it somehow.
Ach, enough for now.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Jan 18 - 02:38 PM

Said it yesterday, bears repeating today:


Or more likely, not.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 04:58 AM

Steve, I am sure you are a lovely family man, but your political views are extreme.
You are happy to describe yourself as "Far Left."
That is extreme.

You and Jim both support BDS, a view too extreme for any UK party or any Liberal Democracy to espouse.
(Guardian, "Jeremy Corbyn would be happy to buy goods from Israel and does not support a blanket boycott, divestment and sanctions (BDS) policy)

When all your group are dominating a thread you posture as if your extreme views are mainstream, while marginalising and ridiculing anyone expressing actual mainstream views.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Mr Red
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 04:58 AM

Same old story

The chosen few addressing the person instead of the issue.

Reading into instead of reading.

Roll on 2019, it will be all different then.

Please!


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 06:31 AM

I don't care what you think, Keith.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 06:35 AM

"You and Jim both support BDS, a view too extreme for any UK party or any Liberal Democracy to espouse."
So extremism is to be judged by what political parties, including extremist ones, support and don't support
The classical definition of fascism is to place the actions of the state above the aspirations of the people
BDS is not extreme - if it was, any boycott would he an extremist act, such as that against Apartheid South Africa
Remind us how many decades Anerica boycotted Cuban goods or how long the blockade of Palestine by Israel has been in place?
Utter nonsense
Human rights groups and decent people throughout the world support action against Israel for its terrorist behaviour - I saw an exhibition of photographs yesterday in our County Town arts centre showing how the authorities have closed down an entire area of Muslim shops in the centre of Jerusalem
You manic attack on the Labour party is a perfect illustration of another example of religion being used to carry out abuse   
"I discussed anti-Semitism within Labour. No other party has had such issues in recent years."
Most religions have been incorporated into the establishment and many of them, Christianity especially, have become spokesmen for some of the most extreme right wing Governments and groups on the planet - Fascist Spain and Chile, Fascist dictatorships in South America - the Dutch Reform Church was a solid supporter of the South African regime.... the list is very impressive
No other Party has had such a problem - are you joking?
Ukip based their activities on Islamophobia and swung the vote on Brexit on a racist ticket
The vice chairman of an even more extreme anti Semitic and Islamophobic offshoot of Ukip it to be put on trial in Belfast for racist activities
The Northern Ireland Unionist Government was established on the basis of dividing an entire State into two religious factions and making one of those less influential than the other.
In contrast - only two members of the Labour party, Livingstone and Shah, were accused of directly involving Jewish people in their criticism of Israel - one apologised for a youthful indiscretion - the other simply told the truth at the wrong time.
Yet all the other things I have mentioned rate as less important as these two cases
That must signify something
I have no intention of responding to your inevitable denials Keith - New Year resolution and all that
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: keberoxu
Date: 13 Jan 18 - 04:18 PM

My earlier posts about Rev. Kevin Annett
referenced The Tyee, and Gnu.

I haven't heard from Gnu about Annett.
But here is the link to The Tyee.
This article goes back almost ten years.

Terry Glavin on Kevin Annett

As posted before, I'm not going to the Kevin Annett presentation
in the Greater Boston Metro area,
advertised for this month.
The issues in which Annett is invested are important,
and they ought to be addressed regardless of his position.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jan 18 - 05:32 AM

Interesting statement from an interesting source, from this morning's Irish Times

BISHOP SAYS DANGER OF CHILD ABUSE IS TO BELIEVE THE WORST IS OVER
A Catholic bishop has said that ignorance about the effects of child abuse in the past compounded its harmful effects on the lives of many young and vulnerable people.
"People of my generation began our adult lives with almost no awareness of the pervasiveness and impact of abuse in our society and in all societies," the Catholic Bishop of Limerick Brendan Leahy said.
"As a consequence, failure to recognise and respond appropriately to the complex issues which abuse presents, has at times compounded the profound and harmful impact on the lives of many young and vulnerable persons," he said.
"In recent weeks, millions have joined the social media conversation using the hashtag #MeToo, or its equivalent, on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram; women and men denouncing harmful sexual experiences. Many are revealing for the first time, via social media, their own stories. While the majority of those sharing #MeToo stories are adult women, a large number of the shared stories reveal sexual abuse that began when they were minors," he said.

Safeguarding
Initially, in trying to tackle abuse issues in the past, "we began speaking about child protection. Today we speak instead of safeguarding, because safeguarding is a concept that reaches beyond protection, responding not only to problems which have occurred but incorporates the prevention of harm and the promotion of welfare.
"Safeguarding also extends beyond children to include people of all ages and abilities who may have vulnerabilities which expose them to a risk of abuse," he said.

Collaboration
Bishop Leahy was speaking at Mary Immaculate College in Limerick at a conference on "Building Collaboration in Safeguarding" organised by Limerick diocese in association with An Garda Siochana, Tusla and the HSE.
Attendees included representatives from statutory, voluntary and educational sectors, as well as various faith organisations. "The greatest danger for us is that we might relax and believe that the worst is in some way behind us. To take this view would be a profound error which would compound the historical failures," he said.
From his own meetings with victims he was critically aware of its impact "on all dimensions of their lives and there are no quick or simple solutions to what are sometimes their lifelong struggles.
"I am also very conscious of the strain on people working in voluntary organisations as they struggle with what at times seem to be enormous limitations on resources.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: mg
Date: 16 Jan 18 - 02:46 AM

go to abuse tracker. read what is going on in peru and chile and the pope's visit. the pope has been extremely ..somewhere between negligent and culpable on this issue.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jan 18 - 03:25 AM

HERE
The Americas have historically been the location of the worst collusion between the church and State terrorism
This news item appears to have neatly slipped under the wire on this side of the Pond
Thanks MG
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: keberoxu
Date: 16 Jan 18 - 11:19 AM

Since Raggytash responded to my contribution (page 2 if you're doing pages)
by consulting the Wiki,

I will bring this full circle.
Here are two different parts of the WikiVerse
with contrasting presentations on
the Kevin Annett attention-getting campaign
(sadly I think that's the most authentic thing about him,
that he craves attention)

RationalWiki: Pseudolaw

Wikispooks: whistleblower, activist, writer


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: keberoxu
Date: 17 Jan 18 - 10:21 AM

Does God answer prayer?

Just went past the bulletin board with the notice
that started my inquiry.

Someone took a ballpoint pen
and wrote across the Kevin Annett lecture date:
RESCHEDULED


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 09:54 AM

Associated Press - January 18, 2018

Pope Francis accused victims of Chile's most notorious pedophile of slander Thursday, an astonishing end to a visit meant to help heal the wounds of a sex abuse scandal that has cost the Catholic Church its credibility in the country.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 10:38 AM

One could restate that news story in a different way. the protesters had targeted a particular bishop and accused the bishop of a cover-up. the pope said that unless the protesters have evidence against the bishop, they are guilty of slander.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 11:13 AM

Judge not, il Papa...


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Senoufou
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 11:32 AM

It's a pity that the Statute of Limitations applied here. If it didn't, the victims could give evidence in court that Juan Barros was indeed present and complicit.
But to accuse the victims of calumny is wrong. The Pope can have no idea either way. He could only be justified in calling them liars if it could be proved in a court of law that they had in fact lied.

It isn't surprising that Catholics in Chile are less numerous - I expect they're thoroughly disillusioned and disgusted with this state of affairs.
It would seem that 'no lessons have been learned'...


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 11:47 AM

OK, Joe, lets restate it like this:

---

Pope Francis Stands Behind Bishop Who Victims Claim Protected A Pedophile Priest

Chilean sex abuse victims of a pedophile priest were stunned Thursday when Pope Francis accused them of slander.

The pope’s visit to Chile was supposed to begin a healing process between the Catholic Church and the victims of Rev. Fernando Karadima. Instead, Francis accused the victims of slandering a bishop they claimed had protected the priest.

At least one of Karadima’s victims said Bishop Juan Barros watched while he was abused.

A number of parishioners have accused Karadima of sexually assaulting them when they were teens, beginning in the 1980s. In 2011, the church “sentenced” the cleric to a lifetime of penance and prayer for his sins. A judge also found charges against Karadima credible. But too much time had elapsed since the crimes, and the authorities were unable to file criminal charges against him.

Although victims and victims rights advocates have attacked Barros for allegedly covering up for Karadima, the Vatican has continued to embrace the controversial bishop. In 2015, Pope Francis appointed Barros to head the diocese of Osorno in south-central Chile.

The Pope's comments immediately set off a backlash, with abuse victims speaking out on Twitter and elsewhere, with many saying the statement echoed the skepticism and denial that had met with their claims. One victim, Juan Carlos Cruz, replied, "As if one could have taken a selfie or photo while Karadima abused me and others" while Barros stood by."

Adding to the drama, the exchange took place one week after the Associated Press reportedl that Francis had written a letter in January of 2015 about the Vatican's attempt to cope with the fallout from Karadima. In it, the agency said, Francis acknowledged the controversy around Barros and referred to a previous plan to ask for Barros' resignation.

The church is losing its influence in the nation, Reuters reported. A new poll by Santiago-based think tank Latinobarometro showed that the number of Chileans calling themselves Catholics fell from 74 percent in 1995 to 45 percent last year.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 01:17 PM

Quite a bit better, Greg. Still, it's important to read the whole article, and not just the headline.
The Pope said the accusers are guilty of slander IF they fail to produce evidence against the bishop.
There is no question about the guilt of the priest who molested the victims.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 09:19 PM

This article is what I've been looking for, for a long, long time:It was written by a priest who worked in the Vatican Embassy in the U.S. in the 1980s. Very few "insiders" have said anything about what led to the awful coverup mess that the Catholic Church got itself into. It's the same thing that happens so often everywhere - politics took precedence over compassion.

The child sex scandal was well-known by the U.S. bishops in 1985 - and they chose to table all attempts to deal with the problem. They finally took action in 2002, after the expose from the Boston Globe. But they had a very good chance to deal with the problem in 1985, and they tabled it.

I knew about this stuff in 1985 or earlier. The National Catholic Reporter has been publishing articles about this sex scandal since 1983, and I'm a regular reader. There's a bunch of you asshole bigots here who try to accuse me of denying the wrongdoing or defending my church, but the truth is that I have spoken out against this shit every chance I've had since 1985...and I've spoken out where it counts, not just in Internet folk music forums amongst anti-religious bigots. I tend to think that this matter must be dealt with rationally and with solid evidence and not hysteria, but this is the one issue in the Catholic Church that has made me angrier than any other.

There are some "good guys" among the U.S. bishops, but their voices were lost amidst the powerful people who silenced this problem from 1985 until they finally took action in 2002. And whatever the case, nobody among the U.S. bishops spoke loud enough to get anything done until the Boston Globe published their story in 2002. Then everybody jumped on the bandwagon.

I don't know any victims of sexual abuse by priests. I have sympathy for them, but there is an element of reality lacking in my sympathy because I lack personal knowledge. Some of you asshole bigots will condemn me for that, but that's the truth. If you can't admit the same about yourselves, then you truly are assholes.

But I do know a lot of priests because I was in the seminary for 8 years, and the vast majority of those priests have never had any thought of molesting a child. Yet, all of them are suspect, and that constant suspicion since 2002 has been an awful burden for these innocent men to bear. You asshole bigots may think that these good men deserve to be under suspicion because they are priests and that's the price of being priests, but that's bullshit. How would YOU like to live your life under constant suspicion of being a child molester, simply because you work in a particular occupation?



As for the Pope and what he said about Bishop Juan Barros who's been targeted by protesters in Chile, note that the Pope just asks for evidence that Barros committed a cover-up of the crimes of Fr. Karadima. The courts said that allegations against Karadima were credible, but that the statute of limitations had expired. The Pope did not deny the crimes committed by Karadima. The court said nothing about Barros, and the evidence against Barros is very sketchy. So, for now, I agree with the Pope. Until there's evidence, there's no reason to take action against Bishop Barros.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: mg
Date: 20 Jan 18 - 03:09 AM

there was no reason to upgrade barros in the first place when the people were very very vocal about the move, before and as it happened.

same same pell. how could he?

he is cute and cuddly like a care bear but has absolutely failed in his responsibility in this area. this was his chief job. he has blown it. they have fire bombed churches in their opposition to barros and he has him up on the altar with him.

and i went to church just last sunday..oh..i didn't. i was sick.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Raggytash
Date: 20 Jan 18 - 05:43 AM

"I tend to think that this matter must be dealt with rationally and with solid evidence and not hysteria"

Yet you post in the same paragraph "There's a bunch of you asshole bigots here" and "anti-religious bigots"

Further on you post "Some of you asshole bigots will condemn me for that, but that's the truth. If you can't admit the same about yourselves, then you truly are assholes" and then later "You asshole bigots may think .............. "

Is this what you consider to be rational and not hysterical Joe.

Just one more thing, for the record, I have never held you to be personally responsible for anything.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jan 18 - 06:14 AM

Your Church appears to have a death-wish Joe
Someone needs to reign the Big Feller in before you lose even more supporters - bloody insane!
Jim Carroll

From this morning's Irish Times

POPE ACCUSES ABUSE VICTIMS OF SLANDER
Pope Francis has accused victims of Chile's most notorious paedophile of slander, in an astonishing end to a visit meant to help heal the wounds of a sex abuse scandal that has cost the Catholic Church its credibility in the country.
Francis said that until he sees proof that Bishop Juan Barros was complicit in covering up the sex crimes of Father Fernando Karadima, such accusations against the bishop are 'all calumny'.
The Pope's remarks drew shock from Chileans and immediate rebuke from victims and their advocates. They noted the accusers were deemed credible enough by the Vatican that it sentenced Karadima to a life?time of 'penance and prayer' for his crimes in 2011.
A Chilean judge also found the victims to be credible, saying that while she had to drop criminal charges against Karadima because too much time had passed, proof of his crimes was not lacking.
'As if I could have taken a selfie or a photo while Karadima abused me and others and Juan Barros stood by watching it all,' tweeted Bishop Barros's most vocal accuser, Juan Carlos Cruz.
Truly crazy
'These people are truly crazy, and the pontiff talks about atonement to the victims. Nothing has changed, and his plea for forgiveness is empty.'
The Karadima scandal dominated Francis's visit to Chile and the overall issue of sex abuse and church cover-up was likely to factor into his three day trip to Peru that began late on Thursday.
Karadima's victims reported to church authorities as early as 2002 that he would kiss and fondle them in the Santiago parish he ran, but officials refused to believe them.
Only when the victim went public with their accusations in 2010 did the Vatican launch an investigation that led to Karadima being removed from ministry.
Francis had sought to heal the wounds by meeting this week with abuse victims and begging forgiveness for the
crimes of church pastors. But on Thursday, he struck a defiant tone when asked by a Chilean journalist about Mr Barros.
'The day they bring me proof against Bishop Barros, I'll speak,' he said. 'There is not one shred of proof against him. It's all calumny. Is that clear?'
Anne Barrett Doyle, of the on?line database BishopAccountability.org, said it was 'sad and wrong' for the pope to discredit the victims since 'the burden of proof here rests with the church, not the victims and especially not with victims whose veracity has already been affirmed.
'He has just turned back the clock to the darkest days of this crisis,' she said in a statement. 'Who knows how many victims now will decide to stay hidden, for fear they will not be believed?'
PA


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Jan 18 - 09:26 AM

Anti-religious asshole bigots? As opposed to pro-religious Catholic apologist bigots, perhaps?

Joe, take a deep breath & get a grip.

Greg F, ABA (Asshole Bigots Association, Inc.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jan 18 - 09:41 AM

i suspect that posts are being deleted.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Joe Offer
Date: 20 Jan 18 - 09:55 AM

Nope. No deleted posts.

And yes, I think that most of you are anti-religious bigots, whether you like to be called that or not. There's no doubt that the sexual abuse scandal in the Catholic Church was and is a serious problem, but there's a good number of you who are downright obsessed with this thing, far beyond anything that would be considered a rational response. Perhaps one or two of you was a victim of sexual abuse as a child. If that happened to you, then that's a terrible thing and I am very sorry that happened to you.

But I don't think that's the case for most of you. For you, it seems like a feeding frenzy, punctuated by occasional spurts of your born-again atheism that shows that your real intent is just to make religious people look bad.

So, yeah, it's bigotry. And I feel like a primary target of that bigotry. I think it's unfair and unjust, and your bigotry makes me very angry. It's especially disappointing because except for your anti-Catholic obsessions, you're all pretty nice people - people I agree with on almost all other issues.

And Raggytash, you and Jim Carroll are the worst of them. I can't understand why you are so obsessed with this issue.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Raggytash
Date: 20 Jan 18 - 10:06 AM

"that shows that your real intent is just to make religious people look bad"

We don't have to do that Joe, the perpetrators do that very well all by themselves.

I repeat no one is blaming you for any of the abuse that has occurred, is that clear, no one is blaming YOU.

However until the various churches that are involved put their houses in order I, for one, will continue to "name and shame"


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Joe Offer
Date: 20 Jan 18 - 10:29 AM

So...Jim quotes the Irish Times: They noted the accusers were deemed credible enough by the Vatican that it sentenced Karadima to a lifetime of 'penance and prayer' for his crimes in 2011.

These accusers were victims and eyewitnesses of the crimes of Karadima, so of course their testimony about the actions of Karadima is credible.

But what about the actions of Bishop Barros? Were these "credible witnesses" also eyewitnesses of the actions of Barros? One accuser, Juan Carlos Cruz, said "...while Karadima abused me and others and Juan Barros stood by watching it all." Some of the news articles seem to have interpreted this as saying that Bishop Barros was an eyewitness, standing at the crime scene and watching as it happened. But is that the case, or was Cruz simply assuming that Barros had full knowledge of the crimes as they were happening?

A lot of people seem to have a very distorted view of how the Catholic Church functions. I see it time and time again in these endless threads, how you people seem to think that bishops know all of their priests and know everything that their priests are doing. I don't know if it's a wise policy or not, but most bishops do not serve as bishops in the diocese where they were born and raised and ordained. They don't get to know the priests they supervise until they've served as bishop for a few years; and then they may see priests briefly two or three times a year, if that. Priests work in parishes and spend most of their time with parishioners, not with bishops or with other priests. Most priests don't even particularly like bishops, for that matter. But people assume that bishops know all about their priests and everything their priests do. That's just not the case.

This sex scandal developed and peaked during the 25-year reign of Pope John Paul II, whom I detested. I think JPII did everything he could to destroy the advances made by Vatican II, and to restore authoritarianism to the Catholic Church. And so, he appointed bishops who were loyal bureaucrats. And he ignored any problems that made his church look bad. As Cardinal Ratzinger, Benedict XVI was the first person of authority in Rome to take serious action against the child abuse scandal, and he continued that after he became Pope.

But Pope Francis is the one who really started to turn around the mess that JPII made. In general, he has been very wise in his choices of bishops. He has strategically assigned very good people where the messes were most serious. It's clear that Francis heard the objections at the time he appointed Barros, but he did not and does not consider those objections to be credible. There are lots of conspiracy theories floating around on this issue - you can find scads of them in Mudcat threads.

I haven't seen any reports of credible evidence against Barros. So far, it's just a lot of noise.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jan 18 - 11:03 AM

You cannot get away from teh fact taht, until this affair hit the fan it was standard practice by the church to cover up abuses until it became impossible to do so; then the perps where shipped off to practice their abuses on 'less important' victims - this has been shown to have happened over and over again.
If it proves to have not been the case in this particular instance, then the Church have only themselves to blame for past behaviour.
Going by past records, the benefit of the doubt has to rest with the victims
If the Pope is not careful he is going to create the same situation Trump is now in in having to think twice about any country he visits - how many times have you seen people out on the streets protesting about a Papal visit - I can never recall an instance of it happening?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Joe Offer
Date: 20 Jan 18 - 11:28 AM

Sorry, Raggytash, but that's not the way I see it. I can't say that you personally have put any blame on me, and I respect you for that - but I still think you're obsessed with this matter.

But there are plenty of others who have heaped all sorts of bullshit on me. You don't have to look far in this thread to see it.

For the record, I acknowledged this sex abuse scandal and have been following it closely long before most of you ever heard of it. I have never denied the crimes or the coverups if they were supported with reasonable evidence; but I have also heard a lot of rumors and conspiracy theories that just don't make sense. And I have seen many, many 30-year-old stories reported here at Mudcat as new evidence, when in fact the same stories have been the basis of hundred-message threads a year or a month before.

So, all this hulabaloo makes it appear that there are new sex crimes happening in the Catholic Church every moment, when the fact of the matter is that it all happened thirty years ago. The crimes happened, and they are serious - but this is not the primary thing that goes on in the Catholic Church and most Catholics never experience or witness any of this.

I experience a very similar phenomenon in my community, a small town of maybe 20,000 people and about 250 homeless people. Yes, it's true that the homeless people can be bothersome at times, and they do commit petty crimes on occasion. There is an organized group in town who are absolutely obsessed about the homeless situation, and they make it seem that the town is under constant attack by homeless people. Some people get all upset if they even see a homeless person within a few blocks of their home, and there are leaders who take delight in getting people upset about the "plague" of homeless people in our community. I'm one of the most vocal advocates for our homeless shelter, so I'm the target of a lot of angry verbiage. People have accused me of all sorts of horrible things. This week, I gave a man an old sleeping bag that had my name on it - I wonder what trouble is going to happen once the sleeping bag gets left behind and somebody finds my name on it.

I saw an old homeless man in a wheelchair at our church choir practice, and then he went over to the school gym next door. The next day, I heard a kid at the gym had been assaulted by a homeless man. Turns out, the guy in the wheelchair yelled at a kid, and this was termed a "verbal assault." But when the kid's anti-homeless father told the story, he neglected to mention the wheelchair and the fact that the "assault" was only verbal. A year later, the father told the story at a county Board of Supervisors meeting, and he blamed me by name for the incident because I hadn't called the cops when the man was watching our choir practice.

That's what I mean. Crime does happen, and it is a serious problem -
but most often it's not anywhere as serious as people think it is. Stories of minor incidents get repeated over and over again and distorted into something far more serious than the reality. Stories of serious incidents are changed and repeated so often, that people get the impression that they are surrounded by crime.

So it is in the Catholic Church. In everyday life in Catholic parishes, there is very little awareness on the sexual abuse of children by priests. Everybody acknowledges that it happens on occasion, but very few people have and direct knowledge of such incidents. But from the outside, there's a distorted view that child abuse is an everyday occurrence in the Catholic Church, and Catholics are covering the whole thing up.

That's what these constant threads do - they present a very distorted view of the Catholic Church as some sort of evil mind-control place. In actuality, a Catholic parish is just a place where people go to play bingo on Wednesday and have fish frys on Friday and spend an hour at Mass on Sunday. For the most part, Catholic parishes are disgustingly normal, but they're nice communities to be part of.

So, you bigots go on with your obsessions. But I think you're crazy.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jan 18 - 11:38 AM

As I said earlier,

Then there is child abuse by teachers, family members and friends, grooming gangs, youth organisation volunteers, people traffickers sports coaches and all the others.
Why does only clerical abuse matter to you?

As Joe said, it looks like just an excuse to attack religion.
Just bigotry


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Jeri
Date: 20 Jan 18 - 11:49 AM

It's just an excuse to attack, period.

Mudcat is now home to a bunch of folks enamored of "recreational outrage". If they ain't pissed off about something, they ain't alive. Best to leave BS alone, because it's never again going to be possible to have a reasoned discussion with folks here.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jan 18 - 11:53 AM

"Why does only clerical abuse matter to you?"
Why do you claim that clerical abuse is the only thing that matters to us Keith
Have you forgotten already that it wasn't that long ago we were involved in an argument about abuse, including paedophilia by politicians, which you were also defending
Why do you defend this shit by pointing to others - what kind of human being does that?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Jeri
Date: 20 Jan 18 - 12:01 PM


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jan 18 - 12:29 PM

Well, as an anti-religious bigot meself, I find it rather strange to look back at many of my posts to do with religion that relate the positives and the humorous side of being brought up a Catholic, taught by the Salesians indeed, including some of the harmless absurdities visited on us poor wretches by men who were not, in many regards, of the mainstream world. Only yesterday in another thread I was talking about the SVP which I was a member of when I was in the sixth form, going out to help elderly and lonely people. I've frequently exonerated the Catholic Church on account of the fact that it isn't too hard to stop being a Catholic. No-one threatens to cut off your head, for example. I've stated several times that I know that the vast majority of clergy operate with only good intent and goodwill, even though they're deluded in some of what they promote. In thirteen years of being raised in Catholic schools, including going on a good number of residential trips, and later teaching in a Catholic school for seven years, I never witnessed nor caught wind of any sexual abuse. But none of that warm, cuddly stuff can water down my strong opinion that religion is far more a force for harm in the world than a force for good. Which is not to say for one second that it's all harm and no good. But the Church HAS dragged its feet badly over sexual abuse and it HAS condoned the mistreatment of women and it HAS been utterly unreal in its teachings about contraception and those teachings HAVE caused harm, and it HAS been misogynistic and it HAS been antisemitic. And it IS OK to bring that stuff up and to do so is NOT bigotry. Religion is just one of many topics of conversation on this website and OK, some posters are opportunistic in making their points at times. But I don't see any obsession here. The people you accuse discuss issues all and sundry, and religion is a little way down the popularity chart. By accusing people of bigotry you are simply keeping the fire aflame, Joe. Not helping. Just because you're discussing a matter for which the Church is rightly being criticised, it doesn't mean that you have to include balance in every post. I've put balance in this post but you still think I'm a bigot, don't you?


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Joe Offer
Date: 20 Jan 18 - 01:12 PM

Well, no, Steve. Every once in a while, you make sense.

You say: But the Church HAS dragged its feet badly over sexual abuse and it HAS condoned the mistreatment of women and it HAS been utterly unreal in its teachings about contraception and those teachings HAVE caused harm, and it HAS been misogynistic and it HAS been antisemitic.

I would agree with every word of that assessment, and all of that deserves serious discussion.

If you haven't done so, take a look at the National Catholic Reporter article I linked to above:The article is an honest, critical, and very factual discussion of the sex scandal, and it isn't complimentary at all to the U.S. bishops. That's the kind of discussion we need - something that looks into the issue seriously and stays away from broad generalizations.

But that's not what we're getting here. Instead of delving into the facts of the situation, we're getting countless repetitions of surface information. The very frequency of the repetition distorts every discussion into bigotry. Raggytash started this thread with "yet more abuse" - but it was abuse he reported in another thread last year. If I mention the word "Jesuit," how long will it take for Jim Carroll to come out yet again with his twisted interpretation of "Give me the child at the age of 8, and I'll show you the man" ??? And then he'll go off once again on his Jesuit brainwashing theory. And Greg_F? Well, he's just habitually hateful.

I come from the Land of Bigotry, and I know bigotry when I see it. I've seen similar anti-crime logic used to condemn blacks and hispanics and gays and homeless people. It's hard to refute that sort of bigotry because it's based on facts - but it's distorted to create the illusion that the misconduct is an everyday occurrence committed by all members of the targeted class.

And yes, crime is a serious matter and must be dealt with seriously.

Not with the hysteria I see so often in these threads.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jan 18 - 02:10 PM

""Give me the child at the age of 8, and I'll show you the man""
Probably as long as it takes you to realise that these are crimes committed by more than a "few bad apples" and they were assisted by your church Joe
Whatever the Jesuits meant or didn't mean, the church ruled by fear and influence wherever it had any authority - especially in Catholic Ireland, where that authority was written into the new State - the last remnant of that power is hopefully about to be removed with the repeal of the 8th amendment
I grew up aware of the fear generated by the church - my father lost his when he was excommunicated for fighting in Spain; my mother never did and still allowed herself to be bullied out of her last pennies by a priest making his weekly visits.
Fear of the clergy who were prepared to abuse their power by the use of spiritual blackmail was a major factor in these crimes and the hierarchy stood by and let it happen - they even facilitated the atrocities by moving the perpetrators to parishes where they were not known
Say that this didn't happen please Joe and remove the scales from my eyes.
You and Keith may shout "bigot" as loud as you want - if bigotry is a hatred of those who abuse their power to rape children - guilty as charged
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jan 18 - 02:14 PM

Well hysteria is an absolute too far, and Greg is not hateful. Direct, undiplomatic and cussed awkward at times (I've taken lessons from you, Greg! ;-) ), but I actually believe that there's not a hateful bone in his body. And I can't definitely say that about everybody here. We can get a bit ardent, that's a fact. But I'd let you buy me a pint or three any time.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Jan 18 - 02:18 PM

And Greg_F? Well, he's just habitually hateful.

Habitually hateful? Well, fuck you then! And the priest you rode in on.

Happy now, Joe?


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Gutcher
Date: 20 Jan 18 - 02:49 PM

In the letters page of the Irish Times last year a gentleman under his own name and with the designation SJ confirmed Jim Carrols views on the said Society in unequifocal terms.
Perhaps Jim or another can dig a copy of the letter out of the archives and put it up on this thread {it being beyond my computer expertise to perform this task} No one from the SJ refuted the statement made in that letter.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Senoufou
Date: 20 Jan 18 - 03:00 PM

To get back to Juan Barras for a moment, I find it hard to imagine that victims from the past would lie about such a thing.
It must be incredibly difficult and require much courage to come forward and tell what happened. This kind of disgusting sexual abuse must have traumatised the victims and during all these years they would probably have been psychologically and mentally affected.

I'd concentrate on them rather than on squabbling and fighting amongst ourselves about religion, blame, name-calling and so on.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Jan 18 - 03:56 PM

To get back to Juan Barras for a moment, I find it hard to imagine that victims from the past would lie about such a thing.

Well, Joe obviously thinks they would. Why don't you take up the issue of squabbling, fighting about religion, blame, name-calling and so on with him.

Best,

Hateful Greg, ABA (Asshole Bigots Association, Inc.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Senoufou
Date: 20 Jan 18 - 04:13 PM

I'd hesitate to label anyone with those epithets Greg. The only people who are completely detestable in this matter are those who abuse/have abused children.
I don't believe for one moment that anyone on here (including Joe) condones paedophiles. It would simply be more civilised (and more profitable) if posts could be toned down a bit and views expressed with less vitriol.
I think the main root of all the distress in Chile is the 'expiry' of the right to lodge accusations. If only victims could do so in retrospect, as is acceptable in UK for example, the witnesses could be examined in a Court of Law and the matter concluded with Justice not conjecture.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Jan 18 - 05:00 PM

I'd hesitate to label anyone with those epithets Greg.

Joe doesn't seem to have that problem - in fact he's quite free with those epithets.

Of course, Trump & company are similarly adept at demonising personally those they disagree with or who are not of their particular group...........but I digress.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: mg
Date: 21 Jan 18 - 02:11 AM

o'malley has just spoken up and said the pope has cost pain to survivors...do you think? and if anyone thinks this problem is not happening all over the world, and I am referring specifically to the catholic church although others do of course...they are deluded. i understand wanting to protect the assets of the church, but not its pitiful, corrupted reputation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Joe Offer
Date: 21 Jan 18 - 03:19 AM

Senoufou says: To get back to Juan Barras for a moment, I find it hard to imagine that victims from the past would lie about such a thing.

I don't think ther victims would lie. I think that they firmly believe what they say - they're just not in a position to know whether Barras did a coverup or not.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jan 18 - 03:46 AM

"they're just not in a position to know whether Barras did a coverup or not."
Of course they are Joe - that is nonsense
A documentary on the most vicious and most prolific Clerical rapist, Brendan Smythe, showed clearly that the parents of victims went to their Bishop to report his rapes and were castigated by him for doing so.
Who is more likely to know whether Barras covered up the abuses, the victims or the Poe who has accused them of slander, just as Smythe's Bishop did.
This is a disgraceful affair and the Pope is behaving disgracefully, and in doing so he is damaging your religion.   
It is fairly obvious from THIS ARTICLE that the church was fully aware of the possibility tha Barros had covered up abuse - he was not just a colleague of the abuser - he was his protege.
It is not up to the victims to bring proof of the crimes they are accusing Barras of, it is up to the church to hold an enquiry on the accusations that have been made - thye haver gone on as if nothing has happened
The only good thing to have come out of all this is that it provides a perfect example of how the church, right up to the top echelons behaved throughout the whole period that the abuses took place and is now providing proof positive that the contrition expressed by the Vatican is as meaningless as a fart in a hurricane
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: mg
Date: 21 Jan 18 - 04:57 AM

i believe the victims claim the barros witnessed the abuse..as was right there. i have no idea if that is true or they made a story up. however. it stinks to high heaven and large portions of at least one country believe it is true. there was no need to promote him, given the fervor with which parishioners protested at the time. now they have firebombed 9 churches i believe.

and back to pell. what a disgrace to the world. not just the church. it is public knowledge how he treated the victims of abuse and their families and the pope pulls him up to the vatican amid huge outcries from australia. again, no need, unless to protect him from the law.

this pope is partially good and the rest absolutely horrid. he seems to have no sense of responsibility..that he inherited this mess and he is the one who has to tackle it or he should not have taken it on. we are rotten to the core and the world knows it and no amount of pussyfooting or insulting the victims is going to change that. only honesty will and we are not an honest church.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 Jan 18 - 03:20 PM

The clergy on a lighter note:

Skiing Priests


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 Jan 18 - 10:46 AM

Breaking news in the UK so I haven't got the whole story but it looks like Pope Francis is offering an apology to the people of Chile who he maligned.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Jan 18 - 10:51 AM

He's been busy taking on Chilean terrorists - gossiping nuns.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Jan 18 - 10:53 AM

'Scuse me - make that Peruvian terrorists.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Mr Red
Date: 22 Jan 18 - 10:58 AM

does he get a chilly reception?


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jan 18 - 11:12 AM

"offering an apology to the people of Chile who he maligned."
Hope he doesn't breathe too dep a sigh of rlief if his apology is accepted
Jim Carroll

From this morning's Irish Times
ORDER REPORTS NEW ABUSE CLAIMS AGAINST FORMER PRINCIPAL
Elaine Edwards
The St John of God order has said it has told the Garda S?ochana about new allegations of child abuse against a former school principal who subsequently went to work with children in Africa.
Br Aidan Clohessy was head of St Augustine's, a school for boys with special needs in Blackrock, Co Dublin, from 1970 until 1993, when he was relocated to Malawi.
The first serious child-abuse allegation was made against him in 1985; two new claims by former St Augustine's pupils emerged as late as this week, a newspaper report said on Sunday.

TWENTY ALLEGATIONS
The report claimed that up to 20 allegations were made against Br Clohessy up to 2014, and that when the State established the Residential Institutions Redress Board, in 2002, payouts were made to Irish accusers of Br Clohessy but he continued to work with children in Africa after that time. It also alleged that he had converted a garage at his home to house boys who had been on the streets.
Irish journalists were brought to Mzuzu, Malawi's third-largest city, in 2010 to see the work of the Tipperary-born brother, who had established an array of mental and other health services for some of the most vulnerable people there, including prisoners.
The St John of God Order said in a statement: "While the order cannot comment on individual cases or on cases arising from unsubstantiated reporting, it is responding in accordance with its safeguarding policies and procedures and has reported the allegations to the relevant authorities and will co-operate as required."
The order said it was reviewed in Ireland by the National Board for Safeguarding Children in the Catholic Church in December 2015 and had fully co-operated. "Up to 2012, the order fully accepts that its responses were not what they should have been in the reporting and management of cases."
All the allegations reviewed by the safeguarding board were reported to the Garda S?ochana and Tusla, the Child and Family Agency. "The St John of God Order reiterates its unreserved apology to any individual who has suffered any form of abuse while in its care," the statement said.
The order added it had "endeavoured to respond to and appropriately support any individual who has been hurt during their time in the care of the order" and that it "would urge anyone who may have suffered abuse or who has a concern to come forward, or to contact the relevant authorities".


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Jan 18 - 12:31 AM

I think that although it's old-fashioned, it still may be of value to argue from actual facts, and not from unfounded public opinion. There's an excellent 2015 article in the Catholic Herald (UK) that gives some solid information on the Barros situation. The writer of the article seems to think that Francis's appointment of Barros was unwise, although there is no solid evidence against Barros. It still seems to me to be a case of "all smoke and no fire." But yet, there has been strong and even violent opposition to Barros.

Let's look at this thing again. There has been a lot of opposition to Barros, but yet the Pope named him bishop in 2015, and continues to support Barros. The politically expedient thing would be for the Pope to give in to public opinion and remove Barros and sentence him to "a life of penance and prayer." What has the Pope to gain by supporting Barros? - nothing. His decision to support Barros is politically foolhardy.

The Pope gains nothing from supporting Barros, so why would he do it? I think he does it, because he firmly believes that it's the right thing to do - and he's taking a big risk by continuing to support such a controversial figure. This Pope has shown a habit of doing what's the right thing to do, even though it may be unpopular.

Up above, I said, "they're (the victims) just not in a position to know whether Barras did a coverup or not."
And Jim Carroll replied Of course they are Joe - that is nonsense.

But is it nonsense? Again, we're dealing with thirty-year-old offenses. Barros was apparently a subordinate of a child molester priest. What do we really know about what he knew? Child molesters ordinarily do their deeds in private, and they are extremely clever at covering up what they've done. That cleverness is what allows them to seduce children - but I think that molesters are equally able to seduce the adults around them into thinking that nothing is wrong. But since Barros was close to the molester, a huge number of people are sure he must have known what the molester was doing. As far as I can see, that's the only "evidence" against Barros - guilt by association. He was close to the offender, so he should have known.

I an embarrassed to say that I have known a number of child molesters. I went to the seminary with them. Generally, I thought of them as extremely good people - but yet ten years after I knew them, they were molesting children. Never would I have expected these good guys to do such a horrible thing, but I have to face the fact that they did.

I think that may well be the situation with Barros. He served under the molester, but there's a good chance he had no idea that this seemingly-admirable priest was molesting children.

I think that we all know molesters - but yet most of the time, we don't know anything at all about the crimes they are committing. Child abuse is one of the best-hidden crimes in existence.

I think that those who are to blame should be punished, and removed from any positions from which they might be able to do further harm. But as with any crime, I think we need to be sure we're blaming the people who actually are to blame. I think the Pope is right to ask for evidence, and for specific information. I haven't seen any specific information about Barros, other than the fact that he worked closely with a child molester. So did I my friends, so did I - and I had no knowledge of that until decades later.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: mg
Date: 23 Jan 18 - 01:19 AM

i do not think the pope named him bishop . he was already a bishop and he gave him a new job, which he did not need to do. there are testimonies from victims or maybe just one that barros was a witness to abuse. not someone who shuffled papers around to protect someone. a witness. put that in your pipe and smoke it. whether it is true or mass hysteria i do not know. but 30 priests and deacons wrote to the pope; there was a popular uprising in the church building itself. read up everyone. http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/news/2015/03/31/vatican-decision-to-appoint-bishop-juan-barros-was-correct/

if a large part of a country is up in arms, if the window dressing commission the pope himself did not want this..why in the world was it done? look again at pell. why oh why do we have such people in a church. there is something really really wrong with this pope, despite some good works with refugees, homeless etc. no one has blind spots this big. i don't know if someone is pulling his strings..i don't know. none of it adds up.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Jan 18 - 01:33 AM

Here's a very insightful article about the Barros situation from 2015, at the time Francis appointed Barros to the Diocese of Osorno, Chile:While I have to admit that the evidence weighs heavily against the Pope, I continue this think that the Pope must have made the appointment because he believed and still believes it to be the right thing to do. Politically, the decision to appoint Barros was disastrous, and Pope Francis had nothing to gain from making the appointment.

Here's the Wikipedia article on the Karadima case:


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: mg
Date: 23 Jan 18 - 02:18 AM

he must have had something to gain. a passive aggressive poke in the eye to the "stupid" people in the diocese. A slap to his own commission. Points with Opus Dei and all those weird religious orders that spring up with charismatic leaders and sordid secrets. some deal with vatican people who might somewhat dictate to him. i do not know. he could have left well enough alone. he could have appointed him to some archival job. who knows. it stinks to high heaven.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jan 18 - 04:10 AM

"But is it nonsense? Again, we're dealing with thirty-year-old offenses"
That were taking place throughout the church on a world scale, in which covering up for and passing on abusive clergy was not just commonplace but was a standard reaction when the problem got out of hand
That may be circumstantial evidence, but it's enough to sway any jury
The St John of God Order, which you choose not to comment on (and who's to blame you) is an example where a serial abuser was not just passed on, but was allowed to set up a home for street children which he used as his own personal supply of victims.
Examlples like this make the Church just as guilty as the perpetrators - if not more so.
The perps could claim illness as an excuse for their behavior - the Church did what it did out of self-preservation
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Jan 18 - 05:06 AM

Hi, Jim -
I don't know of the St. John of God Order. If you have factual information about it, please let us know about it.

I do know about the Legionaries of Christ an order founded by Macial Maciel, a child molester who basked in the favor of Pope John Paul II. Cardinal Ratzinger knew what he was up to, and banished him as soon as he became Pope Benedict XVI. The bishop of my Sacramento diocese welcomed the Legionaries, and they started a seminary for 12-year-old boys about 5 miles from my home. The seminary closed when Maciel was banished, apparently before any 12-yr-old boys were molested.

That same bishop named John Corapi Chief of Doctrine in our diocese, and this was a very dangerous man. He was very popular and developed a "following." I wrote a letter to the editor of the diocesan newspaper, complaining about Corapi. I was castigated for my letter for months afterwards. I felt really good years later, when Corapi left the priesthood in disgrace.

Weirdos like Corapi and the Legionaries arise occasionally in the Catholic Church, and they occasionally find favor with local bishops. I'm sure they're very much like your St. John of God people, Jim. I've felt an obligation to oppose such people with all the fervor I can muster. They embarrass the hell out of me.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jan 18 - 06:18 AM

"I don't know of the St. John of God Order. If you have factual information about it, please let us know about it."
The article from the Irish Times is reproduced iin full above Joe
22 Jan 18 - 11:12 AM
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Jan 18 - 02:32 PM

Oh, okay. You're not going to like my response, Jim, but the St. John of God order responded in a way that I would call the norm before 2002. The Catholic church had not yet developed procedures for dealing with child molestation, and they simply did not know what to do. At the time, other institutions who employed molesters were responding in the same way. As I said above, the Catholic church in the United States knew of the problem in 1985, and there were high ranking people in the church who had developed policies for responding. My diocese and many others developed their own policies that were made nationwide in 2002, and those dioceses had relatively few problems. However, those in power in the national bishops' organization chose to ignore the problem at that time. In other words, politics took precedence over doing the right thing. More-or-less the same thing happened in Ireland and in most parts of Europe - many responded properly, but the people in power in the national organizations took no action. And Rome thought it was the job of the national organizations to handle it. And I think it's safe to say that the national organizations were afraid to interfere with the autonomy of local bishops. And that let certain local bishops get away with murder.

I knew this was happening since the 1980s, because the National Catholic Reporter reported every step of the way. But the newspaper was considered to be a liberal rag that was undermining the authority and respectability of the Church and showing gross disrespect for bishops and for His Holiness, John Paul II. We kept speaking out, but those in authority refused to respond. They followed political expediencies until they finally were shaken to their senses in 2002 and years following.

You may well agree with me, Jim, up to this point. But here's where we diverge. The bishops who cast those fatal votes to ignore the problem, were just casting individual votes and did not realize the impact of their votes. They saw all this as a threat to their individual authority to control their own dioceses, and they voted against that thread and had no awareness of the impact on the children who were victims. And not, the rules have been in place for 15 years and are working - for the most part. And the people who cast those votes are dead or in their dotage. And we have a Pope who wants to do the right thing. But you're still rubbing our faces in the shit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: mg
Date: 23 Jan 18 - 02:44 PM

They did not always and everywhere ignore the problem. They forced abuses from law enforcement, the judicial system, suppressed news reporting, prob interfered with health providers. These are the people who disgustingly tried to teach us right from wrong.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Jan 18 - 02:59 PM

That's too simplistic a view, mg. The people who taught you right from wrong were mostly women who were great people and great teachers, but they had no power. The men who had the power were worried about political expediencies, had their heads so buried in politics that they had no clue about the impact of their politics on children.

One nun who had been a Catholic school principal at the time, told me, "We told the bishops time and time again what those priests were doing, Joe. But the bishops wouldn't listen."

And now those bishops are dead, and we're left with the mess.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 10:05 AM

Too Simplistic?

Well you got your child rapists on one side and the children on the other. Obviously good people "on both sides".

Under the radar you got your third side; the fixers, the smoothers and the justifying RECTAFYERS quietly rectumfying the situation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 10:13 AM

child rapists on one side and the children on the other. Obviously good people "on both sides".

Oh?

Rather like Trump's "good Nazis, racists, and white supremacists" ???


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 10:30 AM

Like Hirshfield hid his daughters name NINA in each of his drawings I have quotes or allusions to events in some of my posts that is not always so obvious.

sometimes ya gotta entertain yerself.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 11:00 AM

Greg you may have missed 'rectumfying'


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 11:29 AM

"responded in a way that I would call the norm before 2002"
You mean up to the point where the the extent of the abuses hit the fan Joe - no problem with that whatever
If they didn't "know what to do" when they found the clergy were molesting (raping actually) children without "a strategy", than they were not fit to have children in their care
Surely, the first thing any thinking human being does is to prevent the offender from having any contact whatever with children - maybe what happens top the perp once he is discovered needs a plan, but that's it.
Instead, fellow priests stayed silent, Bishops catigated the parents and the predators were passed from parish to parish until their behaviour became to apparent to be hidden - then Africa became their stamping ground.
The hierarchy were a part of these abuses and the Vatican still refuses to release the documented evidence of them - the blunders of a Pope who seems to be a breath of fresh air, compared to what has gone before, is evidence enough that the Church still doesn't realise the enormity of this affair.
Ireland (one "Holy Ireland" is an interesting place to live at present
The Church is fighting desperately to hold on to its hold over children through the schools, the priests are preaching to near-empty churches and this morning Ireland has been told by the American business community that unless the schools drop their 'baptismal certificate' demand it will have a detrimental impact on trade with your country.
This year we will see yet another referendum on the rights of women to terminate pregnancy and the church is already sharpening its knives for the fray (pretty much as it did with same-sex marriage)
Interestingly, the Pro-Life crowd have employed the services of the agency that got Trump elected into office.
"Happy days are here again"
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 12:48 PM

The ex team USA gymnastics doctor sentenced to up to 175 years for criminal sexual abuse against children.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 12:56 PM

And another good "christian" apparently - Nassar taught religion classes at the Catholic church in East Lansing, MI.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 12:59 PM

Finally a different story.

perhaps because the judge was a woman, the victims were female and the male church was not involved.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Senoufou
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 01:49 PM

Now why are UK sentences for paedophiles so lamentably short?
While I feel that Judge Aquilina said some rather strange things not all that appropriate in a Court of Law ("I have just signed your Death Warrant" for example) she certainly didn't hold back with his punishment.

In addition, that dire Presidents Club in London which used to hold men's evenings for charity at the Dorchester Hotel had been hurriedly disbanded after dozens of waitresses were groomed, groped and treated like meat. Great Ormond Street Hospital has even returned the charity money they were given by this bunch of rich entitled pervs.

Two great victories for women in one day. Yay!


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: mg
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 02:06 PM

No. The pope has no intention of doing the right thing in this area.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Jack Campin
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 02:44 PM

The people who taught you right from wrong were mostly women who were great people and great teachers, but they had no power.

The Smyllum case in Scotland (inquiry currently going on) is rather telling. Some of the current senior nuns are publicly admitting responsibility on behalf of their order - but pretty weakly, and the one thing they NEVR do is name any more names. They will unwillingly concede that the victims' testimony is true, but they will NOT provide information leading to the exposure of any abuse that hasn't already become public. They MUST know where the bodies are buried (and quite literally so in this case).

There is, now, nothing to stop elderly priests, nuns and monks from voluntarily walking into a police station to report what they know. None of them ever do so.

They DO have power in this situation - the power to testify. And they aren't using it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 02:52 PM

"And another good "christian" apparently "
Don't start that or wee will have to mention the family that has been kept imprisoned by their devout Christian parents
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 03:59 PM

I can't disagree with any of the many incidents you report. Unfortunately, almost all of them are true, no matter how many times you repeat them.

I do object to the statements from many of you that these criminals are examples of "good Christians."

That's where you pass into bigotry.

The Catholic Church has been laid low by this scandal, no doubt about it. We're suffering greatly because of it. It was our children who were victims of these crimes, and we are appalled by this criminal conduct. We don't deny the crimes that have been committed. We're trying to get beyond it and get back to things like working for justice for the poor and migrants.

Thank you for kicking us when we're down, you bigots.

It wasn't all that long ago when there were laws against Catholics in the U.S. and Europe, and particularly in England. Jesuits were outlawed in many parts of the world, and eventually even the Pope caved into political pressure and suppressed the Jesuits. Not very long ago at all, Catholics were a primary target of the Ku Klux Klan. Seems like many of you are yearning to carry on that tradition of bigotry.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 04:35 PM

Somebody called my attention to this article in The Atlantic.
It's true. It's a fascinating story, and it shows how really weird Pope Piux IX ("Pio Nono") was. Please note that word "some" in the headline. It's a very important qualifier. Too many of you bigots are too quick to change that word to "all." And that's when you become a bigot. This incident does not describe what most Catholics consider being a "good Catholic." The vast majority of Catholics do not applaud such conduct or child molestation or any of the long list of weirdnesses you bigots cite. When you scoff and call these criminals "good Christians," you insult the rest of us. And that makes you a bigot.

Don't like being judged a bigot? Don't be one.

Why Some Catholics Defend the Kidnapping of a Jewish Boy

It?s not about the Church?s relationship with Jews. It?s about the culture war inside the Church.

One summer evening in 1858, the police showed up at the home of a Jewish family in Bologna, Italy, and took their six-year-old child. Authorities had discovered that the child, Edgardo Mortara, had been secretly baptized when he was a baby. Edgardo had fallen gravely ill and his Catholic nanny baptized him for fear that he would die a Jew and be locked out of heaven. But Edgardo survived?and, in the eyes of the Church, he was now a Catholic. Papal law mandated that all Catholic children must receive a Catholic education, and so he was separated from his Jewish family, with Pope Pius IX personally overseeing his religious education.

The ?Mortara case? spurred a wave of protests, with activists and intellectuals from Europe and the U.S. petitioning Pius IX to return the child to his parents. The pope refused. Edgardo eventually became a priest, and in 1940 he died in a Belgian monastery. The Vatican never apologized for his kidnapping specifically. But in 2000, John Paul II issued an apology for the persecution of Jews. Today, the dominant Catholic attitude toward the Mortara case is one of regret: ?It?s not one of the episodes that the Church is very proud of,? Massimo Faggioli, a Church historian at Villanova University, told me.

Now, however, conservative voices are defending Pius IX?s decision to abduct a Jewish boy. In the latest issue of First Things, a right-leaning Catholic magazine, the Dominican priest and theologian Romanus Cessario wrote a review of Kidnapped by the Vatican? The Unpublished Memoirs of Edgardo Mortara, which recently appeared in English translation. In the book, author Vittorio Messori, an Italian Church historian, goes through Mortara?s personal archive and defends the abduction. Likewise, Cessario calls the law upon which Pius IX acted ?not unreasonable? and casts Edgardo?s kidnapping in a positive light: ?Divine Providence kindly arranged for his being introduced into a regular Christian life.?

Cessario?s essay spurred strong reactions within the Catholic world. Michael Sean Winters, writing for the National Catholic Reporter, called it ?morally repugnant? and ?intellectually deplorable.? Catholic intellectual Robert George called it ?an embarrassment.? Meanwhile, the Mortara family is upset that some people have the chutzpah to defend the abduction today: ?It really hurt, when we heard some are still defending Pius IX,? Eléna Mortara, the great-granddaughter of Edgardo?s older sister, told me. She said that Edgardo?s kidnapping has always been an open wound for the family, ?something we still discuss at every Passover,? even if it sometimes provokes dark humor: ?We had this inside joke about being the only Jewish family with a priest uncle.?

The Mortara case has, in recent memory, been a source of tension between Catholics and Jews. When the process of beatifying Pius IX began 18 years ago, the Italian Jewish community protested. The descendants of the Mortara family wrote an open letter to John Paul II, asking him not to make the man who?d kidnapped their relative into a candidate for sainthood who would be publicly venerated. Pius was beatified anyway. Today, however, Steven Spielberg is making a film about the Mortara case, and Eléna Mortara says that defending the kidnapping has become ?a very marginal position.?

So what?s driving some conservative intellectuals, like Cessario and Messori, to defend it? Anti-Semitism does not appear to be their motivation. ?I hold Jewish people and the Jewish faith in high regard,? Messori told me. ?It?s where Christianity came from.?

Rather than being about Catholics? attitudes toward Jews, the debate about the Mortara case today is more about a war raging inside the Catholic Church. Since the Second Vatican Council, which addressed the Church?s relationship to the modern world, the Church has progressively changed its posture toward secular morality, a process that has accelerated under Pope Francis. This change has led to discontent in the most traditionalist sectors of the Church.

?There is a backlash. It has been going on for 30 years, but now that we have a progressive pope, it?s getting stronger,? Faggioli, the historian, told me. The defenses of the Mortara kidnapping are part of what he described as ?a full-fledged culture war? inside the Church: ?They?re saying that what the Vatican has done in the past 30 years is wrong, and we should go back to Pius IX?s days, when the only thing that counted was the law of the Church.? Defending the Mortara abduction now, he added, is a ?way to attack, indirectly, the direction that the Church has taken.? Other progressive Catholics have expressed a similar interpretation in recent days.

It?s worth noting, however, that when some traditionalists defend the fact that their Church kidnapped a Jewish boy, they?re not just waxing nostalgic about the good old days when an almighty pope could do as he pleased. They?re making a larger theological argument?about divine doctrine trumping human morality, and about religion taking precedence over civil rights.

Both Cessario and Messori are quite explicit about this. ?Should putative civil liberties trump the requirements of faith?? Cessario writes. It?s a rhetorical question. In his book, Messori makes a similar point, encouraging a return to a Katholischeweltanschauung, or Catholic worldview, in which the salvation of the soul is deemed more important than other concerns.

In their eyes, that?s what the Mortara case comes down to. Yes, taking a little boy from his parents is horrible. Yes, it goes against all our moral intuitions as human beings. But Pius IX was answering to a higher moral authority, one rooted in Catholic doctrine. And that doctrine obliged him to save Edgardo?s soul. It was, Messori said, a painful decision: ?Pius was aware of the drama that he was inflicting, but he had no choice.?

Not every traditionalist subscribes to the view that kidnapping a baptized Jewish boy is commendable. Many cringe at the idea; for instance, Catholic traditionalist scholar Joseph Shaw insisted that the Mortara kidnapping is ?one of the most indefensible actions by any pope of modern times.? Traditionalism is a wide galaxy of conservative Catholics that encompasses those who would go so far as to repeal Vatican II as well as those who simply wish that Francis were a bit more cautious. But the Mortara case highlights a belief that is dear to many of them: Revealed doctrine must be upheld even when it conflicts with what some would call ?universal human values.?

As Francis softens the Church?s stance on homosexuality, remarriage after divorce, and other issues, some traditionalists are discomfited by an approach they describe as anthropocentrism?putting secularly-derived human values, as opposed to transcendent values, first. They see the Church as dramatically changing its position, from demanding that human beings adapt to its teaching, to adapting its teaching to human values.

?There?s always a tension between Catholic and secular morality,? Dan Hitchens, a deputy editor at the Catholic Herald, told me. Many Catholics, he said, ?are increasingly skeptical about the ideal of a neutral, secular authority. Partly this is because of recent experience.? He cited, as an example, a new Canadian government decision stipulating that ?to receive certain kinds of government funding, churches have to sign up to respect ?individual human rights.? But as of last month, these rights turn out to include abortion.?

The notion that there?s an intrinsic tension between religious morality and secular morality has historically convinced some European nations that keeping organized religion out of the public realm is a prerequisite for democracy. This is visible not only in France?s laïcité, a strict flavor of secularism, but also in Italy?s recent history. When the modern Italian state was born, only three years after the Mortara case, Italian nationalists openly opposed the Vatican and clashed with papal troops. Pius IX reacted by forbidding practicing Catholics from voting in the country?s elections. The voting ban, however, was revoked in 1919. Although some understand Church ethics to be immutable, in practice, that hasn?t been the case. Throughout its history, the Church has always tried to strike a balance between its moral system and the dominant moral systems of the time.

The Church and its followers are still trying, as the recent Mortara flare-up shows. Even those who slam the defenders of the kidnapping admit that there?s a non-trivial theological issue at the core of the debate. The Mortara case ?raises important issues,? Hitchens told me, ?but I?m not sure it raises them in the best context.? Conservative Christian thinker Rod Dreher, who called Cessario?s argument ?grotesque,? nevertheless writes: ?Theologically the Mortara case is a challenging question, because Christians really do believe that baptism is a permanent thing. We really do believe that Christianity is objectively true. Plus, modern people have to be very careful about judging the acts of people from much earlier ages by our standards today.?

It seems that in their desire to attack Francis?s approach, traditionalists are weaponizing an old narrative that, however objectionable, does contain a genuine theological issue that intellectually honest Catholics cannot easily dismiss. Perhaps it?s only by reckoning with this issue on the level of theology that they?ll be able to finally defuse the weapon.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 04:57 PM

Once again Joe I will reiterate that no-one is accusing YOU of being responsible for any of the atrocities that have been committed by some of your faith.

YOU ARE NOT TO BLAME FOR ANY OF THIS.

Is that clear, no one is attacking you, I have said this on so many occasions I have lost count.

Once again.

YOU ARE NOT TO BLAME FOR ANY OF THIS.

However, some of your colleagues, within your faith have been so remiss, so negligent, so derelict, so thoughtless, so offhand and unconcerned about the victims of prolonged abuse that I will persist in bringing this subject to the fore.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 05:37 PM

Suppose you are a cop dealing with crime. Crime is still somewhat abstract until he becomes the victim, Your POV is changed forever,

A bigot in this sense is a victim. A person with an abstract POV may not understand especially if they see themselves as being their ego. The greatest con job consciousness can commit is making us think we are who or what our ego says we are. We are more than that. When ego is no longer the boss, we go from being humans to human beings.
The same goes for victims.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 06:36 PM

After the 25-year, oppressive reign of John Paul II, we finally have a Pope I can believe in, somebody who is trying to clean up the mess. He may make mistakes here and there, but he seems to be trying to do his best. But you guys are all over my Pope and my church like rats on a carcass.

And your "good Christian" mockery is a prime example of your bigotry.

Although it may happen in our midst, Catholics don't support child molestation and don't consider child molesters to be "good Christians."

I know that many of you believe in combat as it it were a religion, but that's offensive to a lot of us who prefer peaceful, constructive discussion.

Your constant attacks on my church are offensive. And for many of you, your attacks are constant on many fronts. And that's offensive.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 06:41 PM

Thank you for kicking us [Christians] when we're down, you bigots.

That's OK, Joe -

1. Re-read 24 Jan 18 - 04:57 PM

2. Take comfort in the fact that good "Christians" like Trump, Joe Arpaio, Roy Moore, Tony Perkins, Franklin Graham & the rest of 'em call us "bigots" waging a war on Christianity,too.

Greg F.
Hateful Bigots Association of America.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 08:03 PM

Let me expand my prior comments;

Ego boundaries make enemies that do not exist Joe. I will now be speaking in advanced religio-psychoanalysis terms. I don't expect you to get it right away except to say, no one is attacking you, except yourself.

This is all naturally confounding until you have the ah ha moment.

In religion the ego manifests as the Devil. And of course no one realizes how smart the ego is because it created the devil so you could blame someone else. The ego is the worst confidence trickster we could ever imagine because you don't see it. It's con is "I am you. The ego hides in the last place you would ever look, within itself. It disguises its thoughts as your thoughts it disguises its feelings as your feelings. You think its you.
People who need to protect their own egos knows no bounds, they lie, deny, cheat, steal, kill, do whatever it takes to maintain ego boundaries. People have no clue they are in a kind of prison, they don't know they have an ego, They don't know the distinction.
At first it is hard for the mind to accept there is something beyond itself, there is something of greater value, that there is something greater than itself. There is no such thing as an external enemy, no matter what that voice in your head is telling you, all projection of an enemy is a projection of the ego as an enemy. Your greatest enemy is your own ego, your own ignorance, your own casting of your own enemies. These come from a variety of religious teachings and psychology, not just one dogma or a religion that collects and trains egos.

Finding the ah ha moment is most challenging for a straight line (linear} person to achieve.
Then you will know We are not bigots, we are not the enemy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 08:15 PM

Let me expand my prior comments;

Ego boundaries make enemies that do not exist Joe. I speak in second religious-psychoanalysis terms. I don't expect you to get it right away except to say no one is attacking you, except yourself.

This is all naturally confounding until you have the ah ha moment

Finding the ah ha moment is most challenging for a person to achieve but if you do you will know We are not bigots, we are not the enemy and some religious teachings will be seen in a new light


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 08:34 PM

"Your constant attacks on my church are offensive. "
Your constant defence of the protecting of serial paedophelia by your church is equally offensive
I asked you some time ago if the things I described happened
You have yet to reply
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: mg
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 08:48 PM

My church too though. And I do not believe for a minute the pope is trying to clean up this mess. I do not know what his problem is, but he has a huge problem in this area, and it is not merely a blind spot. I have had one pope in my lifetime I could believe in, and that was John Paul I, Luciani Albino. Imagine what he would have on day one if he knew about this, and he was a tremendous advocate for children. He would have gone after them with a bullwhip I do believe. He would have risked his life, as he did with the mafia or whoever helped send him to eternal rest. He would have immediately replaced people, not by promoting them either. He would perhaps have sent them to unreachable island monasteries, but he would have gotten them the hell away from children and vulnerable adults. Actually, so would I have done all that. And more. Gotten canon lawyers in to fix any loopholes. let it be known, probably on day on, but no later than day 3, that these sorry days are over and we will sell the sistine chapel if we have to to make it right but by all that is holy the buck stops here and there will be no more and there will be no more coverups or the coveruppers will join the abusers in gaol.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 11:49 PM

Jim Carroll says: Your constant defence of the protecting of serial paedophelia by your church is equally offensive


OK, Mr. Jim. Give me some examples where I am guilty of "protecting of serial paedophelia by [my] church"

The fact of the matter is that I opposed this stuff before you even knew about it. You and Greg_F are the two biggest offenders. You are blinded by your own propaganda.

-Joe Offer-

P.S. Donuel, I don't understand what you're saying most of the time. Raggytash, I respect that you and Steve Shaw make a good effort to be rational and fair.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 05:58 AM

Start with a "ew bad apples" and proceed through the discussions to defending a pope who has now held his hands up to his own stupidity Joe
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 07:36 AM

Joe,
I only expect 20% to understand the psychoanalytics I discussed earlier and less than 10% to experience it for themselves.

If an epiphany was common or easy, everyone would have one, every day.
Besides I told you that you in particular would not understand easily. It would be like teaching empathy and compassion to the Freedom caucus.

As with anything if there is a will to understand, there is a way.
Despite that you should have the opportunity to learn something new if want to or not. After all it was intended as a gift.

Cheers


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 12:46 PM

Joe
I am not really well-liked because I speak out. I don't have many friends because I speak out. If you ask me a question, you better be ready for the answer. I speak out because I want change. Because I don't believe in hiding the truth. I am not saying I am always right. But I try.

guess who


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 05:20 PM

quote from; Judge Acquilina

Hey buddy you got over your skis for a moment

Joe you are already a highly respected and appreciated musicologist/
If I were you I would drop recounting your defensive expertise regarding clergy investigations. Like a lawyer you had a job to do.
Flaunting that job will, as you claim, create enemies.
Your Pope is well read, let him carry the water and catch up with attitudes today. The times they are achangin.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 05:37 PM

Joe, even those who seem to imply that Christians are bad do not mean that they all are. On this forum we have had views stating that all the English are racists, Pakistanis are more likely to groom young girls and East Europeans are criminal scroungers. I pull them up on it because no-one should be stereotyped. We are all individuals and have responsibility for our own actions. Place of birth or inherited culture and religion do not define us. We make our own choices and should not be tarred with the same brush as those that make the news in a bad way.

You do not need to be so defensive. Everyone here knows that you and the vast majority of Christians are good and would not countenance such acts or try to hide them. Just as the vast majority of humans would not. If you could have done something about it, I am sure you would have. If you could not do anything about it, why take it so personally?

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: keberoxu
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 06:35 PM

you go, Donuel


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 10:11 PM

Why take it personally, Dave? Because the bigots here paint with a very broad brush. And I'm sick of it.

It's nice for people to tell me not to be offended and that people don't really think that of me, but the fact of the matter is that my religion has been condemned and ridiculed here for far too long. I know that not everyone does it, but there is enough of it and it has gone on long enough, that it hurts.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 03:35 AM

Yes, Joe, and I am sick of people saying that all English are racists, Pakistanis have a propensity for underage girls and East Europeans are criminal scroungers. I cannot do anything about it but complain. If you have the power to do something, then do it.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 03:48 AM

Yeah, Dave, but I had the expectation that folk music people would be above all that. In my younger years in the folk music community, most of the people I encountered were gentle people who believed in peace and harmony. We were going to change the world and make it what it should be. But some of us, just got cynical...and bigoted.
-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 03:57 AM

It may be an age thing, Joe. We may all still be folkies but none of us are getting any younger. I like to think that the less cynical and bigoted amongst us are at least still young at heart :-)

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 03:57 AM

"And I'm sick of it."
And some people are sick of being called bigiots by someone who has bent over backwards to defend the indefensible - here and elsewhere.
Please stop reducing this to vicious name calling and respond to the information you are being given - also here and elsewhere
There is bo bigotry here - only rightful horror at what has happened to your church and the damage that it has done to people's lives
THIS SEEMS a FAIR SUMMING UP and more to come when Scotland and Northern Ireland hit the fan
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 04:03 AM

I don't think anyone has tried to 'defend the indefensible', Jim but if you can provide links to where that has happened I will happily admit that I was wrong.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 04:15 AM

You know, Jim, I identify with the Catholic Church. After 8 years of seminary, it's hard not to. It has been an integral part of my life for almost 70 years. I had so much hope for my church when the Second Vatican Council came, proclaiming all sorts of wonderful ideals. And then came the reign of John Paul II, 1978 to 2005, 27 years of retrenchment and repression - and the coverup of the sexual abuse of children. You have no idea how terrible I felt about all those horrible things happening in the church I loved. I struggled to rise above all that and carry on, but it was hard.

Benedict made a good start in rising out of that repressive period, and Francis is a ray of hope, but I'm still not certain we're going to survive all this.

So, yeah, Jim, I'm still trying to come out of the bad times that lasted so long.

And you don't help. Not a bit.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 04:29 AM

Jim, I was only teasing when I took advantage of something you said as "proof" of the accusations that you were a Jew hater. Do you remember how bad you felt?

Well, Jim, that's how bad your attacks and accusations make me feel; and you have carried them on for years, far longer than my one thing that I thought I was doing just in fun. It makes me feel like an outcast here.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 06:24 AM

""proof" of the accusations that you were a Jew hater. "
Not true Joe - it took a lot of effort on my part to get you to withdraw your accusation
DEfending the indefensible - as far back as your arguing that if the victims insisted on binge compensated the Vatican would have to sell its paintings, and pretty well everything in between
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 06:40 AM

Oh, well, I guess there's no hope. You seem to be completely unable to think in a straight line, Jim. Whether you believe it or not, I'm more-or-less on your side. But you keep having illusions that I'm out there defending wrongdoing, both in my church and in Israel. Why would I do that? Your intransigence makes it impossible to carry on any sort of reasonable communication.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 08:43 AM

Dave,
Pakistanis have a propensity for underage girls

No-one here has ever said that.
The over-representation in convictions has been discussed. That is all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 08:55 AM

You may not be defending the culprits Joe, but you have always played down the role of the church in covering it up and the responsibility they bear for allowing it to happen in the first place
You accuse those of us of hating your church and have, on occasion, suggested we are attacking your religion - neither is the case.
My point has always been that once the church and State politics become entwined, as it has become here, invariably the people are the losers.
Examples such as the murder of Romero and the persecution of decent clergymen are indications that even churchmen are not safe once this happens.
The Church has lost any claim to the right of being entrusted to the welfare of children - had any other body behaved similarly it would have been dismantled and those involved punished yet battles like proof of baptismal demands in order to be educated, Church ownership and control of schools. pregnancy termination, dual sex marriage.... are still being fought here.
In the end, this has led to mass disillusionment among the faithful and a major crisis in the church
As an atheist, I would be happy to see the role of the church cut to the bare minimum tomorrow - but not like this
I have far too many Catholic friends and relatives who would be deeply hurt if your church should crash like this
JIm Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 09:54 AM

So does that mean you're going to stop rehashing this argument, Jim? Your arguing killed one thread this week already, maybe one is enough.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 10:04 AM

"Your arguing killed one thread this week already, maybe one is enough."
I have never Killed a thread - unless you consider argument murder
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: keberoxu
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 11:53 AM

26 Jan 2018:
I have never killed a thread -- unless you consider argument murder

roughly 25 Jan 2018:
When an obituary thread becomes more about
some sort of personal squabble,
than it is about the person who died,
I think it's time to close the thread
and let the dead rest in peace.

17 Jan 2018:
quote from Metro News website:
"One of the awful things about losing Jo
is knowing how much difference
she would have made in the world.
When the kids wake up this morning
I'm going to tell them how --
even though she's not here --
she's still making the world a better place."

quote from
article dated 30 Nov 2017:
"Our most important relationship is now being
mediated through this man who has
the mental approach of a toddler.
That's probably being harsh to toddlers.
I think my kids would deal with international affairs
in a much more effective way. "


One of those things, preceding,
is not like the others . . .


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 01:00 PM

Sorry K, did not understand your posting
None of those postings is mine
You've got to admire the technique of these fellers
They hardly take part in a discussion
They carefully choose a side and accuse those they don't agree with of "closing threads"
If arguing is "closing threads" than maybe we should all stay away
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: keberoxu
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 01:14 PM

26 Jan 2018 -- that quote is yours

30 Nov 2017 -- that quote is Brendan Cox's,
from the
Obit: Member of Parliament Jo Cox (1974 - 2016) thread;
that is to say,
the quote appears in a link
contributed in a post to the obit thread;
the post with the link is dated 18 Jan 2018.

Somebody posting to the Jo Cox Obit thread
thought it was more important to have the last word
than to respect "the person who died."

Speaking for myself, though,
when I posted to the Jo Cox Obit thread
on 17 Jan 2018,
was it to call attention to my political views,
or to call attention to Jo Cox and her legacy?
And was it my post, and my link in the post,
that got the Obit thread closed?


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Jack Campin
Date: 30 Jan 18 - 10:26 AM

Another Scottish case. Somebody in the institution MUST have known what this monk was doing - and kept quiet about it for nearly 50 years.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-42874275


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jan 18 - 12:38 PM

"And was it my post, and my link in the post,
that got the Obit thread closed?"
I've no idea whose posting got it closed K
I assumed that, as the thread had already discussed the political implications at length from teh very beginning it was OK to continue in the same vein
Perhaps it was those who objected to this who got it closed - who knows what goes on between a forum fairy's wings?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jan 18 - 01:01 PM

"And was it my post, and my link in the post, that got the Obit thread closed?"
Why are you people so quick to put the blame elsewhere?
Joe actually said he closed th3e thread because of the squabbling on an obit thread
I've no idea whose posting got it closed K, any more than you have; I assumed that, as the thread had already discussed the political implications of Cox’s killing at length from the very beginning it was OK to continue in the same vein
Perhaps it was those who objected to this happening who got it closed - who knows what goes on between a forum fairy's pointy ears?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Jack Campin
Date: 31 Jan 18 - 07:12 AM

Here is the website of that East Lothian sadist's employers:

http://www.delasalle.org.uk/

No reference whatever to any wrongdoing on their part, ever. No sort of apology.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Jack Campin
Date: 31 Jan 18 - 07:26 AM

Meanwhile it looks like the Pope has changed his mind about Barros:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-42883441


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: keberoxu
Date: 31 Jan 18 - 12:12 PM

Jack, I found it telling
that the Papal update story
name-dropped Cardinal O'Malley.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Feb 18 - 07:21 AM

More repercussions
Stuck between a religious rock and a political hard place
Jim Carroll

From This morning's Times
MAGDALENE VICTIMS DIE WAITING FOR REDRESS
Ellen Coyne
Women with disabilities who spent time in Magdalene laundries have died waiting for the state to pay them the compensation they were owed.
The 'shocking' experiences of Magdalene laundry survivors who were denied compensation by the government was detailed in scathing evidence to an Oireachtas committee yesterday.
Peter Tyndall, the ombudsman, strongly criticised the government for refusing to compensate some of the women who were incarcerated in simi?lar workhouses because it claimed that it would cost too much.
Women with intellectual disabilities who are owed a total of ?1 million have not been paid because assisted capacity legislation has not been enacted. It was revealed yesterday that it would not be enacted until at least 2019, despite 17 elderly survivors waiting for compensation. Many are in the care of the religious orders that once housed them in Magdalene laundries.
The Department of Justice is locked in a dispute with Mr Tyndall, who pub?lished a damning report last year that said that the criteria the government was using for the redress scheme were too narrow. A total of 106 women have been refused payments because offi?cials found that they were not put in one of 12 specific institutions.
Mr Tyndall said that many of the women cleaned the same sheets as those in the laundries but were unfairly excluded from access to compensation. He told politicians that less than half of the ?54 million estimated cost of the scheme had been paid out and that it would cost a fraction of the remaining amount to pay the 106 women.
"I personally believe that the nature of the wrong that's been done to these women needs to be addressed regardless of the cost," Mr Tyndall said. After being an ombudsman for ten years, his report on the Magdalene laundry scheme was the first time that he had reached a point where a department "absolutely, categorically" refused to engage with a report before it was published, he said. "I am very, very disappointed by that."
He also criticised the department's decision to exclude women who qualified for an industrial schools compensation scheme from the Magdalene re?dress scheme Many women who were taught in one of the schools were sent to laundries when they were older.
"In order to avoid some people being compensated twice for the same wrongdoing, some people are being de?nied any compensation. That can't be right," Mr Tyndall said. The only explanation he had received for excluding them was a financial one.
When the scheme was set up in 2013 there were 40 women with serious in?tellectual disabilities who were owed compensation but were not paid because they had capacity issues. The Assisted Decision-Making (Capacity) Act, which passed in 2015 and would allow the women to be paid, cannot come into effect because a new decision support service has not yet been set up.
The figure is now 17 women. The group includes nine women who spent more than a decade in the institutions and are entitled to the maximum ?100,000 under the state's restorative scheme. Mr Tyndall said that while some women had been made wards of court others had died before they could be paid. He said the department was not "proactively" ensuring women were paid and had not started to address the issue until it was raised by his office.
Jimmy Martin, assistant secretary at the Department of Justic?, later con?firmed that some women had been permanently excluded from the scheme because they had died waiting for the government to pay them.
Department officials also said that the crucial law would not be enacted this year, describing a 2018 date as "very, very ambitious".


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Feb 18 - 06:25 AM

The Church appears to have a death wish - it seems to have now entered into politics big-time
It has already launched a somewhat vicious campaign against the proposed repeal of the Eighth Amendment from the Irish Constitution, and now this, from this morning's Irish Times
Jim Carroll

McAleese Barred By Cardinal From Vatican Conference On Women
Patsy McGarry Religious Affairs Correspondent

The Vatican has barred former President of Ireland Mary McAleese from taking part in a conference to mark International Women’s Day which was originally due to take place in the Holy See.
The list of potential speakers required approval from a cardinal, but Mrs McAleese was not given approval to participate.
As a result, the organisers have moved the “Why Women Matter” conference on March 8th to premises outside the Vatican, and have also invited Mrs McAleese to be keynote speaker. She had previously been asked to take part in a panel discussion at the event. The conference was organised by the Voices of Faith group, which is seeking to convince the Vatican that women “have the expertise, skills and gifts to play a full lead¬
ership role in the church”.
The inclusion of Mrs McAleese and two other speak¬ers on its programme was op¬posed by Cardinal Kevin Farrell, prefect of the Dicastery for the Laity, Family and Life. A Dubliner who spent most of his clerical life in the US, he is the most senior Irish man at the Vatican. It is understood the other two speakers were Polish theo¬logian Zuzanna Radzik and Ssenfuka Joanita Warry, a lesbian Catholic who is pioneering LGBT rights in Uganda.
Required approval
Chantal Götz, managing director of Voices of Faith, told The Irish Times the list of speakers required approval from the cardinal. “Cardinal Farrell sent back to me the list of names who he gave permission [for]. Mary McAleese and two others were not on it,” she said. “Unfortunately, unsuccessful efforts
were made to have the cardinal change his mind.”
Rather than exclude the three women, “we decided our¬selves to move the conference to a venue outside the Vatican, she said, adding Mrs McAleese was then asked to be the key¬note speaker. Ms Götz said it was the first time she had en¬countered any issues since the group began organising similar conferences in 2014. Mrs McAleese declined to comment, saying she is awaiting a reply from Pope Francis to a letter she sent him on the matter.
Cardinal Farrell is the Vatican official with responsibility for co-ordinating efforts around the World Meeting of Families 2018 in Dublin next August, which will include a vis¬it by Pope Francis.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Jack Campin
Date: 02 Feb 18 - 06:42 AM

While I don't think the Church as a whole has taken a stand against the Council of Europe's "Istanbul Convention" combatting domestic violence against women, some bits of it certainly have. Countries opposed to it are Poland, Spain, Lithuania and Latvia, with the Church's heid-bummer in Croatia currently trying to block it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Feb 18 - 09:27 AM

A victim’s graphic letter describing sexual abuse by a priest that was witnessed by a controversial Chilean bishop was hand-delivered to Pope Francis three years ago — contradicting the pontiff’s claims that he was unaware anyone had come forward about a coverup, The Associated Press reports.

The eight-page letter, a copy of which was obtained by the AP, was reportedly delivered to the pope by Boston Cardinal Sean O’Malley in 2015. The letter detailed sexual abuse that the victim said was witnessed by Bishop Juan Barros, according to AP.


https://www.yahoo.com/news/ap-exclusive-despite-denial-pope-got-abuse-victims-090653836.html

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/letter-pope-francis-sexual-abuse_us_5a794132e4b00f94fe9457a0


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Jack Campin
Date: 27 Jun 18 - 08:20 AM

My Spanish isn't good enough to make complete sense of this, but it looks like the Chilean scandal just got a lot murkier. A priest got iced to keep the story quiet?

http://www.latercera.com/nacional/noticia/obispo-chillan-no-investigo-religiosos-reconocieron-conductas-impropias-investigacion-judicial/221952/


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