BS: Another year, same old story

Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jan 18 - 06:32 AM

Football non-fans constantly attacking football for being tribal is, ironically, tribal. So you don't like football. Well a lot of people do. A couple of years ago I tried, months in advance, to get a ticket for a relatively humdrum, non-crucial home match at Anfield (Liverpool vs Villa). No chance.

There a lot wrong with football. Players' pay at the top of the game is scandalous. Most league footballers don't get tens of thousands a week, however. We tend to dwell on the most egregious examples, which are actually a small minority. Ticket prices are outlandish in consequence (though you'd pay approximately as much for a decent seat at the opera or for a symphony concert). There's far too much corporate involvement. Some top clubs are bankrolled by billionaires who can buy or sell clubs at will and that's not really fair. Transfer fees at the top are ludicrous, and they are boosted further by parasitic agents taking huge slices of dosh. Television rights are bought for billions a year. We all pay for that eventually via advertising, even though you have to pay to see the matches on the telly. Which I do.

But wassup? It's a perfect example of capitalism in action. So is Tesco, Asda and Morrisons, but I still use them. Another thing that will, I know, never convince the footie-haters: at its best, which is often, it's a beautiful, flowing game that requires consummate skill, tactics and fitness. It isn't popular for nothing. And its popularity, whether you like it or not, crosses class boundaries. It's a great diversion for millions of people who haven't got much colour in their lives. And what's so wrong with diversions? And, let's face it, Liverpool FC are simply the greatest in waiting...

Sorry for the, er, diversion...

Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jan 18 - 09:44 AM

Steve, I know Joe's remark was directed at Rag, but it applies to you also.
You may have referred to other kinds of offenders here but you have never criticised any group but clerics. I do not lie.

What you said about me is not true.
I discussed anti-Semitism within Labour. No other party has had such issues in recent years.
I may have put Israel's side of the story when I felt it was being unfairly criticised by your group, but I have never singled out Palestinians for criticism.

Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jan 18 - 09:46 AM

Hey, kind Mr/Ms Moderator sir/madam, would you please delete that last post of mine as it clearly has no place in this thread. Naturally, it's Mr Red's fault that it's here. Now that we have a dedicated footie thread I've copied and pasted it over there. I thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jan 18 - 09:47 AM

I'm past caring, Keith. We know you only too well.

Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Raggytash
Date: 10 Jan 18 - 10:00 AM

THIS POST IS ADDRESSED TO STEVE SHAW ONLY.

The wazzock can't even get it into his head that you, I and some other people are not an organised gang Steve.

If he can't grasp that simple concept you have bugger all chance with anything else.

Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jan 18 - 10:20 AM

Rag, PMs are available.
If you post a comment on the forum, anyone is entitled to respond whoever you address it to.
Childish name calling, so typical of your group, does not alter that fact.

You form a group of posters who dominate certain threads.
You all hold almost identical views and support each other while all attacking anyone who puts a differing view.

Politically your views are at the extreme end of the spectrum, but here you can posture as if you are mainstream, marginalising and ridiculing anyone who disagrees.
Your behaviour discourages decent people with mainstream views from contributing.

Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Raggytash
Date: 10 Jan 18 - 10:26 AM

See what I mean Steve !!!

Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Jan 18 - 10:27 AM

SADGIT

Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Jan 18 - 10:52 AM

Keith - yes that's right innit...

...you're the mainstream and everyone who disagrees is an organised red under the bed conspiracist threat to normality,
and should all be sent packing back to Russia...!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jan 18 - 11:38 AM

Happily married for 41 years, mortgage for most of 'em, two kids who went to local schools who both grew up dead nice, played Irish on gobiron down t'pub 'til started to go deaf, beaten up Ford Focus, Mrs Steve making marmalade in kitchen this very minute, fan of Liverpool FC, been out to Lidl for me veg this morning then B&M for me wild bird food, fly Easyjet for me hols, vote Labour (only political organisation I've ever been a member of)...

Yeah, meet Mr Extremist!

Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: keberoxu
Date: 10 Jan 18 - 11:48 AM

Said it yesterday, bears repeating today:

Carry on, if you wish, with that which fuels your fire.
My series of posts need not concern you,
as I'm not interested in getting personal.

Bit of a lost cause, this is.
The Rev. Kevin Annett, THAT's the correct spelling of his real name.
My posts of 9 January consistently misspell his last name as Arnett, and that is incorrect.
But who cares ... maybe Kevin Annett cares, maybe his father William S. Annett cares,
but their years in the public eye, and their messages and what they have to say,
never mind what has been done to others,
none of that interests in the slightest
those of you who are busy dancing the dance with each other.
Why do I even bother.

Maybe the Annett noises interest Raggytash a little bit.
Everyone else has better things to do.

After my two posts on this subject -- misspelled names and all --
my online searches continued apace.
I found some things that made me freeze.
And it wasn't what you think.
It wasn't the topics on which Kevin Annett has raised his voice since roughtly 1995.

It was the relationship between a father in his eighties,
and his adult son.
That absolutely hit me where it hurts.
It hit home harder than all of the stories about Canadian atrocities.
Because, as I said before,
but for the grace of ***, there go I.

That father-son pairing, the things they say about each other and the world they live in,
on line and for everybody else to read,
there is much to ponder there.
Would a separate thread be better suited to such disclosures?
Why bother posting any of it here?

Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Raggytash
Date: 10 Jan 18 - 11:55 AM

Where do you get Savile oranges at this time of year?

Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Raggytash
Date: 10 Jan 18 - 11:56 AM

Or even Saville Oranges come to that!

Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: keberoxu
Date: 10 Jan 18 - 12:04 PM

Oranges.

I

GIVE

UP.

Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jan 18 - 12:23 PM

Or even Seville! Mrs Steve got 'em yesterday in Lansdown Dairy in Bude. The marmalade is now potted and the house smells great.

Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jan 18 - 12:42 PM

Keberoxu, Kevin Annett has made himself into an extremely controversial figure. After a lot of googling I can't get my head round it and don't know whether I should be siding with him or not. Whatever his motivations are, his tactical sense is questionable. The sword of truth requires directness and a reining in of emotional grandstanding. The latter is the quickest way to get your adversaries to set to work on you as a person rather than face the accusations against them. He may be right but he doesn't appear to be doing it right. I'll keep looking.

Subject: the Rev. Kevin Annett
From: keberoxu
Date: 10 Jan 18 - 01:21 PM

Thanks, Steve. I figured nobody was listening before you posted just now.

A couple of things to consider.
Ronald Ross Annett has life-year dates 1895 - 1988, think I got those right.
His birthplace was Ontario.
When the Great War happened, R. Ross Annett enlisted.
He was at Vimy Ridge, no less -- something called "the pimple" ?!
This Annett, as you can see from his dates, survived, although
he was wounded in action and I believe wounded so as to be lamed. Something about his hip.

R. Ross Annett left Canada for the United States,
where he submitted stories to the Saturday Evening Post
about life in farm country in the province of Alberta.
I have yet to read any of these stories. If I hear right,
the characters are fictional but based on childhood experience.
Of his wartime experience, it seems, he never wrote.

The Saturday Evening Post stories made R. Ross Annett a Who's-Who type celebrity;
to this day there is a literary award, in Canada, with his name on it,
but I don't know who established the award or endowed/financed it.

I know of three sons from Ronald Ross Annett, perhaps there were other children.
William S. Annett, at latest report, is in his eighties and living in Florida, from where, for a number of years, he has written articles which appear online.
Jack Dunning Annett's dates are 1925 - 2011, according to an online obituary page for a periodical from the city?/town? of Consort, Alberta. This man's remains were to be interred in Consort. While Jack was born in the United States, his childhood, according to this obituary, took him to Consort and he spent his growing-up years in Alberta. Although he, too, had a lifelong love of literature and writing, he made his profession as an architect. There is nothing in his obituary about whether or not he was ever in the armed forces. His brother Bill is named among the "survivors" in the obituary. His parents are acknowledged by name.
Oh! Here's the answer to my question. Besides William S. Annett, the surviving brother,
the Consort, Alberta obituary (looking at it now)
says that Jack Dunning Annett was predeceased by, amongst others,

"brothers Bob and Ron and sister Carol."
So that totals five children of Ronald Ross Annett.

One of those two brothers was killed in action during World War II.
Ah! Just found him I think -- online now in another "tab."
The year before Jack Dunning Annett was born in the US,
this brother arrived, also born in the US:
Robert Ivan Loucks Annett, 1924 - 1944.
The name "Loucks" comes from the ancestry of his mother, Lenora or "Lennye," wife of R. Ross Annett.
A military cemetery in Western Europe is his final resting place. France maybe?

Oh dearie me.
I don't want to write anything more about William S. "Bill" Annett.
Most of what I could find out about him is written by him,
and it smells . . . it just plain smells.
I don't want to repeat it here, honestly.
If you are curious, you can put the search engine through its paces
and look for it yourself.
Well, suffice to underline that Bill Annett takes journalism and writing very personally, and is highly opinionated. Grandstanding, that's Steve's word above, is easily discerned in Bill Annett's opinions and convictions.
I could print some of them here. I won't though.

I know of two sons of William S. Annett.
One of them is his namesake.
The other is Kevin Daniel Annett, ordained by the United Church of Canada
and disbarred, it appears, by same in 1995.

Kevin Annett strikes me as a frustrated journalist,
ministerial ordination or no;
notoriety is more than useful to him, I fear he craves it somehow.
Ach, enough for now.

Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Jan 18 - 02:38 PM

Said it yesterday, bears repeating today:


Or more likely, not.

Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 04:58 AM

Steve, I am sure you are a lovely family man, but your political views are extreme.
You are happy to describe yourself as "Far Left."
That is extreme.

You and Jim both support BDS, a view too extreme for any UK party or any Liberal Democracy to espouse.
(Guardian, "Jeremy Corbyn would be happy to buy goods from Israel and does not support a blanket boycott, divestment and sanctions (BDS) policy)

When all your group are dominating a thread you posture as if your extreme views are mainstream, while marginalising and ridiculing anyone expressing actual mainstream views.

Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Mr Red
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 04:58 AM

Same old story

The chosen few addressing the person instead of the issue.

Reading into instead of reading.

Roll on 2019, it will be all different then.

Please!

Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 06:31 AM

I don't care what you think, Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 06:35 AM

"You and Jim both support BDS, a view too extreme for any UK party or any Liberal Democracy to espouse."
So extremism is to be judged by what political parties, including extremist ones, support and don't support
The classical definition of fascism is to place the actions of the state above the aspirations of the people
BDS is not extreme - if it was, any boycott would he an extremist act, such as that against Apartheid South Africa
Remind us how many decades Anerica boycotted Cuban goods or how long the blockade of Palestine by Israel has been in place?
Utter nonsense
Human rights groups and decent people throughout the world support action against Israel for its terrorist behaviour - I saw an exhibition of photographs yesterday in our County Town arts centre showing how the authorities have closed down an entire area of Muslim shops in the centre of Jerusalem
You manic attack on the Labour party is a perfect illustration of another example of religion being used to carry out abuse   
"I discussed anti-Semitism within Labour. No other party has had such issues in recent years."
Most religions have been incorporated into the establishment and many of them, Christianity especially, have become spokesmen for some of the most extreme right wing Governments and groups on the planet - Fascist Spain and Chile, Fascist dictatorships in South America - the Dutch Reform Church was a solid supporter of the South African regime.... the list is very impressive
No other Party has had such a problem - are you joking?
Ukip based their activities on Islamophobia and swung the vote on Brexit on a racist ticket
The vice chairman of an even more extreme anti Semitic and Islamophobic offshoot of Ukip it to be put on trial in Belfast for racist activities
The Northern Ireland Unionist Government was established on the basis of dividing an entire State into two religious factions and making one of those less influential than the other.
In contrast - only two members of the Labour party, Livingstone and Shah, were accused of directly involving Jewish people in their criticism of Israel - one apologised for a youthful indiscretion - the other simply told the truth at the wrong time.
Yet all the other things I have mentioned rate as less important as these two cases
That must signify something
I have no intention of responding to your inevitable denials Keith - New Year resolution and all that
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: keberoxu
Date: 13 Jan 18 - 04:18 PM

My earlier posts about Rev. Kevin Annett
referenced The Tyee, and Gnu.

I haven't heard from Gnu about Annett.
But here is the link to The Tyee.
This article goes back almost ten years.

Terry Glavin on Kevin Annett

As posted before, I'm not going to the Kevin Annett presentation
in the Greater Boston Metro area,
advertised for this month.
The issues in which Annett is invested are important,
and they ought to be addressed regardless of his position.

Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jan 18 - 05:32 AM

Interesting statement from an interesting source, from this morning's Irish Times

BISHOP SAYS DANGER OF CHILD ABUSE IS TO BELIEVE THE WORST IS OVER
A Catholic bishop has said that ignorance about the effects of child abuse in the past compounded its harmful effects on the lives of many young and vulnerable people.
"People of my generation began our adult lives with almost no awareness of the pervasiveness and impact of abuse in our society and in all societies," the Catholic Bishop of Limerick Brendan Leahy said.
"As a consequence, failure to recognise and respond appropriately to the complex issues which abuse presents, has at times compounded the profound and harmful impact on the lives of many young and vulnerable persons," he said.
"In recent weeks, millions have joined the social media conversation using the hashtag #MeToo, or its equivalent, on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram; women and men denouncing harmful sexual experiences. Many are revealing for the first time, via social media, their own stories. While the majority of those sharing #MeToo stories are adult women, a large number of the shared stories reveal sexual abuse that began when they were minors," he said.

Safeguarding
Initially, in trying to tackle abuse issues in the past, "we began speaking about child protection. Today we speak instead of safeguarding, because safeguarding is a concept that reaches beyond protection, responding not only to problems which have occurred but incorporates the prevention of harm and the promotion of welfare.
"Safeguarding also extends beyond children to include people of all ages and abilities who may have vulnerabilities which expose them to a risk of abuse," he said.

Collaboration
Bishop Leahy was speaking at Mary Immaculate College in Limerick at a conference on "Building Collaboration in Safeguarding" organised by Limerick diocese in association with An Garda Siochana, Tusla and the HSE.
Attendees included representatives from statutory, voluntary and educational sectors, as well as various faith organisations. "The greatest danger for us is that we might relax and believe that the worst is in some way behind us. To take this view would be a profound error which would compound the historical failures," he said.
From his own meetings with victims he was critically aware of its impact "on all dimensions of their lives and there are no quick or simple solutions to what are sometimes their lifelong struggles.
"I am also very conscious of the strain on people working in voluntary organisations as they struggle with what at times seem to be enormous limitations on resources.

Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: mg
Date: 16 Jan 18 - 02:46 AM

go to abuse tracker. read what is going on in peru and chile and the pope's visit. the pope has been extremely ..somewhere between negligent and culpable on this issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jan 18 - 03:25 AM

HERE
The Americas have historically been the location of the worst collusion between the church and State terrorism
This news item appears to have neatly slipped under the wire on this side of the Pond
Thanks MG
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: keberoxu
Date: 16 Jan 18 - 11:19 AM

Since Raggytash responded to my contribution (page 2 if you're doing pages)
by consulting the Wiki,

I will bring this full circle.
Here are two different parts of the WikiVerse
with contrasting presentations on
the Kevin Annett attention-getting campaign
(sadly I think that's the most authentic thing about him,
that he craves attention)

RationalWiki: Pseudolaw

Wikispooks: whistleblower, activist, writer

Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: keberoxu
Date: 17 Jan 18 - 10:21 AM

Does God answer prayer?

Just went past the bulletin board with the notice
that started my inquiry.

Someone took a ballpoint pen
and wrote across the Kevin Annett lecture date:
RESCHEDULED

Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 09:54 AM

Associated Press - January 18, 2018

Pope Francis accused victims of Chile's most notorious pedophile of slander Thursday, an astonishing end to a visit meant to help heal the wounds of a sex abuse scandal that has cost the Catholic Church its credibility in the country.

Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 10:38 AM

One could restate that news story in a different way. the protesters had targeted a particular bishop and accused the bishop of a cover-up. the pope said that unless the protesters have evidence against the bishop, they are guilty of slander.

Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 11:13 AM

Judge not, il Papa...

Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Senoufou
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 11:32 AM

It's a pity that the Statute of Limitations applied here. If it didn't, the victims could give evidence in court that Juan Barros was indeed present and complicit.
But to accuse the victims of calumny is wrong. The Pope can have no idea either way. He could only be justified in calling them liars if it could be proved in a court of law that they had in fact lied.

It isn't surprising that Catholics in Chile are less numerous - I expect they're thoroughly disillusioned and disgusted with this state of affairs.
It would seem that 'no lessons have been learned'...

Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 11:47 AM

OK, Joe, lets restate it like this:

---

Pope Francis Stands Behind Bishop Who Victims Claim Protected A Pedophile Priest

Chilean sex abuse victims of a pedophile priest were stunned Thursday when Pope Francis accused them of slander.

The pope’s visit to Chile was supposed to begin a healing process between the Catholic Church and the victims of Rev. Fernando Karadima. Instead, Francis accused the victims of slandering a bishop they claimed had protected the priest.

At least one of Karadima’s victims said Bishop Juan Barros watched while he was abused.

A number of parishioners have accused Karadima of sexually assaulting them when they were teens, beginning in the 1980s. In 2011, the church “sentenced” the cleric to a lifetime of penance and prayer for his sins. A judge also found charges against Karadima credible. But too much time had elapsed since the crimes, and the authorities were unable to file criminal charges against him.

Although victims and victims rights advocates have attacked Barros for allegedly covering up for Karadima, the Vatican has continued to embrace the controversial bishop. In 2015, Pope Francis appointed Barros to head the diocese of Osorno in south-central Chile.

The Pope's comments immediately set off a backlash, with abuse victims speaking out on Twitter and elsewhere, with many saying the statement echoed the skepticism and denial that had met with their claims. One victim, Juan Carlos Cruz, replied, "As if one could have taken a selfie or photo while Karadima abused me and others" while Barros stood by."

Adding to the drama, the exchange took place one week after the Associated Press reportedl that Francis had written a letter in January of 2015 about the Vatican's attempt to cope with the fallout from Karadima. In it, the agency said, Francis acknowledged the controversy around Barros and referred to a previous plan to ask for Barros' resignation.

The church is losing its influence in the nation, Reuters reported. A new poll by Santiago-based think tank Latinobarometro showed that the number of Chileans calling themselves Catholics fell from 74 percent in 1995 to 45 percent last year.

Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 01:17 PM

Quite a bit better, Greg. Still, it's important to read the whole article, and not just the headline.
The Pope said the accusers are guilty of slander IF they fail to produce evidence against the bishop.
There is no question about the guilt of the priest who molested the victims.

Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 Jan 18 - 09:19 PM

This article is what I've been looking for, for a long, long time:

https://www.ncronline.org/news/accountability/cardinal-laws-complex-role-contemporary-history-clergy-sexual-abuse

It was written by a priest who worked in the Vatican Embassy in the U.S. in the 1980s. Very few "insiders" have said anything about what led to the awful coverup mess that the Catholic Church got itself into. It's the same thing that happens so often everywhere - politics took precedence over compassion.

The child sex scandal was well-known by the U.S. bishops in 1985 - and they chose to table all attempts to deal with the problem. They finally took action in 2002, after the expose from the Boston Globe. But they had a very good chance to deal with the problem in 1985, and they tabled it.

I knew about this stuff in 1985 or earlier. The National Catholic Reporter has been publishing articles about this sex scandal since 1983, and I'm a regular reader. There's a bunch of you asshole bigots here who try to accuse me of denying the wrongdoing or defending my church, but the truth is that I have spoken out against this shit every chance I've had since 1985...and I've spoken out where it counts, not just in Internet folk music forums amongst anti-religious bigots. I tend to think that this matter must be dealt with rationally and with solid evidence and not hysteria, but this is the one issue in the Catholic Church that has made me angrier than any other.

There are some "good guys" among the U.S. bishops, but their voices were lost amidst the powerful people who silenced this problem from 1985 until they finally took action in 2002. And whatever the case, nobody among the U.S. bishops spoke loud enough to get anything done until the Boston Globe published their story in 2002. Then everybody jumped on the bandwagon.

I don't know any victims of sexual abuse by priests. I have sympathy for them, but there is an element of reality lacking in my sympathy because I lack personal knowledge. Some of you asshole bigots will condemn me for that, but that's the truth. If you can't admit the same about yourselves, then you truly are assholes.

But I do know a lot of priests because I was in the seminary for 8 years, and the vast majority of those priests have never had any thought of molesting a child. Yet, all of them are suspect, and that constant suspicion since 2002 has been an awful burden for these innocent men to bear. You asshole bigots may think that these good men deserve to be under suspicion because they are priests and that's the price of being priests, but that's bullshit. How would YOU like to live your life under constant suspicion of being a child molester, simply because you work in a particular occupation?

---

As for the Pope and what he said about Bishop Juan Barros who's been targeted by protesters in Chile, note that the Pope just asks for evidence that Barros committed a cover-up of the crimes of Fr. Karadima. The courts said that allegations against Karadima were credible, but that the statute of limitations had expired. The Pope did not deny the crimes committed by Karadima. The court said nothing about Barros, and the evidence against Barros is very sketchy. So, for now, I agree with the Pope. Until there's evidence, there's no reason to take action against Bishop Barros.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: mg
Date: 20 Jan 18 - 03:09 AM

there was no reason to upgrade barros in the first place when the people were very very vocal about the move, before and as it happened.

same same pell. how could he?

he is cute and cuddly like a care bear but has absolutely failed in his responsibility in this area. this was his chief job. he has blown it. they have fire bombed churches in their opposition to barros and he has him up on the altar with him.

and i went to church just last sunday..oh..i didn't. i was sick.

Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Raggytash
Date: 20 Jan 18 - 05:43 AM

"I tend to think that this matter must be dealt with rationally and with solid evidence and not hysteria"

Yet you post in the same paragraph "There's a bunch of you asshole bigots here" and "anti-religious bigots"

Further on you post "Some of you asshole bigots will condemn me for that, but that's the truth. If you can't admit the same about yourselves, then you truly are assholes" and then later "You asshole bigots may think .............. "

Is this what you consider to be rational and not hysterical Joe.

Just one more thing, for the record, I have never held you to be personally responsible for anything.

Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jan 18 - 06:14 AM

Your Church appears to have a death-wish Joe
Someone needs to reign the Big Feller in before you lose even more supporters - bloody insane!
Jim Carroll

From this morning's Irish Times

POPE ACCUSES ABUSE VICTIMS OF SLANDER
Pope Francis has accused victims of Chile's most notorious paedophile of slander, in an astonishing end to a visit meant to help heal the wounds of a sex abuse scandal that has cost the Catholic Church its credibility in the country.
Francis said that until he sees proof that Bishop Juan Barros was complicit in covering up the sex crimes of Father Fernando Karadima, such accusations against the bishop are 'all calumny'.
The Pope's remarks drew shock from Chileans and immediate rebuke from victims and their advocates. They noted the accusers were deemed credible enough by the Vatican that it sentenced Karadima to a life?time of 'penance and prayer' for his crimes in 2011.
A Chilean judge also found the victims to be credible, saying that while she had to drop criminal charges against Karadima because too much time had passed, proof of his crimes was not lacking.
'As if I could have taken a selfie or a photo while Karadima abused me and others and Juan Barros stood by watching it all,' tweeted Bishop Barros's most vocal accuser, Juan Carlos Cruz.
Truly crazy
'These people are truly crazy, and the pontiff talks about atonement to the victims. Nothing has changed, and his plea for forgiveness is empty.'
The Karadima scandal dominated Francis's visit to Chile and the overall issue of sex abuse and church cover-up was likely to factor into his three day trip to Peru that began late on Thursday.
Karadima's victims reported to church authorities as early as 2002 that he would kiss and fondle them in the Santiago parish he ran, but officials refused to believe them.
Only when the victim went public with their accusations in 2010 did the Vatican launch an investigation that led to Karadima being removed from ministry.
Francis had sought to heal the wounds by meeting this week with abuse victims and begging forgiveness for the
crimes of church pastors. But on Thursday, he struck a defiant tone when asked by a Chilean journalist about Mr Barros.
'The day they bring me proof against Bishop Barros, I'll speak,' he said. 'There is not one shred of proof against him. It's all calumny. Is that clear?'
Anne Barrett Doyle, of the on?line database BishopAccountability.org, said it was 'sad and wrong' for the pope to discredit the victims since 'the burden of proof here rests with the church, not the victims and especially not with victims whose veracity has already been affirmed.
'He has just turned back the clock to the darkest days of this crisis,' she said in a statement. 'Who knows how many victims now will decide to stay hidden, for fear they will not be believed?'
PA

Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Jan 18 - 09:26 AM

Anti-religious asshole bigots? As opposed to pro-religious Catholic apologist bigots, perhaps?

Joe, take a deep breath & get a grip.

Greg F, ABA (Asshole Bigots Association, Inc.)

Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jan 18 - 09:41 AM

i suspect that posts are being deleted.

Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Joe Offer
Date: 20 Jan 18 - 09:55 AM

Nope. No deleted posts.

And yes, I think that most of you are anti-religious bigots, whether you like to be called that or not. There's no doubt that the sexual abuse scandal in the Catholic Church was and is a serious problem, but there's a good number of you who are downright obsessed with this thing, far beyond anything that would be considered a rational response. Perhaps one or two of you was a victim of sexual abuse as a child. If that happened to you, then that's a terrible thing and I am very sorry that happened to you.

But I don't think that's the case for most of you. For you, it seems like a feeding frenzy, punctuated by occasional spurts of your born-again atheism that shows that your real intent is just to make religious people look bad.

So, yeah, it's bigotry. And I feel like a primary target of that bigotry. I think it's unfair and unjust, and your bigotry makes me very angry. It's especially disappointing because except for your anti-Catholic obsessions, you're all pretty nice people - people I agree with on almost all other issues.

And Raggytash, you and Jim Carroll are the worst of them. I can't understand why you are so obsessed with this issue.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Raggytash
Date: 20 Jan 18 - 10:06 AM

"that shows that your real intent is just to make religious people look bad"

We don't have to do that Joe, the perpetrators do that very well all by themselves.

I repeat no one is blaming you for any of the abuse that has occurred, is that clear, no one is blaming YOU.

However until the various churches that are involved put their houses in order I, for one, will continue to "name and shame"

Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Joe Offer
Date: 20 Jan 18 - 10:29 AM

So...Jim quotes the Irish Times: They noted the accusers were deemed credible enough by the Vatican that it sentenced Karadima to a lifetime of 'penance and prayer' for his crimes in 2011.

These accusers were victims and eyewitnesses of the crimes of Karadima, so of course their testimony about the actions of Karadima is credible.

But what about the actions of Bishop Barros? Were these "credible witnesses" also eyewitnesses of the actions of Barros? One accuser, Juan Carlos Cruz, said "...while Karadima abused me and others and Juan Barros stood by watching it all." Some of the news articles seem to have interpreted this as saying that Bishop Barros was an eyewitness, standing at the crime scene and watching as it happened. But is that the case, or was Cruz simply assuming that Barros had full knowledge of the crimes as they were happening?

A lot of people seem to have a very distorted view of how the Catholic Church functions. I see it time and time again in these endless threads, how you people seem to think that bishops know all of their priests and know everything that their priests are doing. I don't know if it's a wise policy or not, but most bishops do not serve as bishops in the diocese where they were born and raised and ordained. They don't get to know the priests they supervise until they've served as bishop for a few years; and then they may see priests briefly two or three times a year, if that. Priests work in parishes and spend most of their time with parishioners, not with bishops or with other priests. Most priests don't even particularly like bishops, for that matter. But people assume that bishops know all about their priests and everything their priests do. That's just not the case.

This sex scandal developed and peaked during the 25-year reign of Pope John Paul II, whom I detested. I think JPII did everything he could to destroy the advances made by Vatican II, and to restore authoritarianism to the Catholic Church. And so, he appointed bishops who were loyal bureaucrats. And he ignored any problems that made his church look bad. As Cardinal Ratzinger, Benedict XVI was the first person of authority in Rome to take serious action against the child abuse scandal, and he continued that after he became Pope.

But Pope Francis is the one who really started to turn around the mess that JPII made. In general, he has been very wise in his choices of bishops. He has strategically assigned very good people where the messes were most serious. It's clear that Francis heard the objections at the time he appointed Barros, but he did not and does not consider those objections to be credible. There are lots of conspiracy theories floating around on this issue - you can find scads of them in Mudcat threads.

I haven't seen any reports of credible evidence against Barros. So far, it's just a lot of noise.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jan 18 - 11:03 AM

You cannot get away from teh fact taht, until this affair hit the fan it was standard practice by the church to cover up abuses until it became impossible to do so; then the perps where shipped off to practice their abuses on 'less important' victims - this has been shown to have happened over and over again.
If it proves to have not been the case in this particular instance, then the Church have only themselves to blame for past behaviour.
Going by past records, the benefit of the doubt has to rest with the victims
If the Pope is not careful he is going to create the same situation Trump is now in in having to think twice about any country he visits - how many times have you seen people out on the streets protesting about a Papal visit - I can never recall an instance of it happening?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Joe Offer
Date: 20 Jan 18 - 11:28 AM

Sorry, Raggytash, but that's not the way I see it. I can't say that you personally have put any blame on me, and I respect you for that - but I still think you're obsessed with this matter.

But there are plenty of others who have heaped all sorts of bullshit on me. You don't have to look far in this thread to see it.

For the record, I acknowledged this sex abuse scandal and have been following it closely long before most of you ever heard of it. I have never denied the crimes or the coverups if they were supported with reasonable evidence; but I have also heard a lot of rumors and conspiracy theories that just don't make sense. And I have seen many, many 30-year-old stories reported here at Mudcat as new evidence, when in fact the same stories have been the basis of hundred-message threads a year or a month before.

So, all this hulabaloo makes it appear that there are new sex crimes happening in the Catholic Church every moment, when the fact of the matter is that it all happened thirty years ago. The crimes happened, and they are serious - but this is not the primary thing that goes on in the Catholic Church and most Catholics never experience or witness any of this.

I experience a very similar phenomenon in my community, a small town of maybe 20,000 people and about 250 homeless people. Yes, it's true that the homeless people can be bothersome at times, and they do commit petty crimes on occasion. There is an organized group in town who are absolutely obsessed about the homeless situation, and they make it seem that the town is under constant attack by homeless people. Some people get all upset if they even see a homeless person within a few blocks of their home, and there are leaders who take delight in getting people upset about the "plague" of homeless people in our community. I'm one of the most vocal advocates for our homeless shelter, so I'm the target of a lot of angry verbiage. People have accused me of all sorts of horrible things. This week, I gave a man an old sleeping bag that had my name on it - I wonder what trouble is going to happen once the sleeping bag gets left behind and somebody finds my name on it.

I saw an old homeless man in a wheelchair at our church choir practice, and then he went over to the school gym next door. The next day, I heard a kid at the gym had been assaulted by a homeless man. Turns out, the guy in the wheelchair yelled at a kid, and this was termed a "verbal assault." But when the kid's anti-homeless father told the story, he neglected to mention the wheelchair and the fact that the "assault" was only verbal. A year later, the father told the story at a county Board of Supervisors meeting, and he blamed me by name for the incident because I hadn't called the cops when the man was watching our choir practice.

That's what I mean. Crime does happen, and it is a serious problem -
but most often it's not anywhere as serious as people think it is. Stories of minor incidents get repeated over and over again and distorted into something far more serious than the reality. Stories of serious incidents are changed and repeated so often, that people get the impression that they are surrounded by crime.

So it is in the Catholic Church. In everyday life in Catholic parishes, there is very little awareness on the sexual abuse of children by priests. Everybody acknowledges that it happens on occasion, but very few people have and direct knowledge of such incidents. But from the outside, there's a distorted view that child abuse is an everyday occurrence in the Catholic Church, and Catholics are covering the whole thing up.

That's what these constant threads do - they present a very distorted view of the Catholic Church as some sort of evil mind-control place. In actuality, a Catholic parish is just a place where people go to play bingo on Wednesday and have fish frys on Friday and spend an hour at Mass on Sunday. For the most part, Catholic parishes are disgustingly normal, but they're nice communities to be part of.

So, you bigots go on with your obsessions. But I think you're crazy.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jan 18 - 11:38 AM

As I said earlier,

Then there is child abuse by teachers, family members and friends, grooming gangs, youth organisation volunteers, people traffickers sports coaches and all the others.
Why does only clerical abuse matter to you?

As Joe said, it looks like just an excuse to attack religion.
Just bigotry

Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Jeri
Date: 20 Jan 18 - 11:49 AM

It's just an excuse to attack, period.

Mudcat is now home to a bunch of folks enamored of "recreational outrage". If they ain't pissed off about something, they ain't alive. Best to leave BS alone, because it's never again going to be possible to have a reasoned discussion with folks here.

Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jan 18 - 11:53 AM

"Why does only clerical abuse matter to you?"
Why do you claim that clerical abuse is the only thing that matters to us Keith
Have you forgotten already that it wasn't that long ago we were involved in an argument about abuse, including paedophilia by politicians, which you were also defending
Why do you defend this shit by pointing to others - what kind of human being does that?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Jeri
Date: 20 Jan 18 - 12:01 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jan 18 - 12:29 PM

Well, as an anti-religious bigot meself, I find it rather strange to look back at many of my posts to do with religion that relate the positives and the humorous side of being brought up a Catholic, taught by the Salesians indeed, including some of the harmless absurdities visited on us poor wretches by men who were not, in many regards, of the mainstream world. Only yesterday in another thread I was talking about the SVP which I was a member of when I was in the sixth form, going out to help elderly and lonely people. I've frequently exonerated the Catholic Church on account of the fact that it isn't too hard to stop being a Catholic. No-one threatens to cut off your head, for example. I've stated several times that I know that the vast majority of clergy operate with only good intent and goodwill, even though they're deluded in some of what they promote. In thirteen years of being raised in Catholic schools, including going on a good number of residential trips, and later teaching in a Catholic school for seven years, I never witnessed nor caught wind of any sexual abuse. But none of that warm, cuddly stuff can water down my strong opinion that religion is far more a force for harm in the world than a force for good. Which is not to say for one second that it's all harm and no good. But the Church HAS dragged its feet badly over sexual abuse and it HAS condoned the mistreatment of women and it HAS been utterly unreal in its teachings about contraception and those teachings HAVE caused harm, and it HAS been misogynistic and it HAS been antisemitic. And it IS OK to bring that stuff up and to do so is NOT bigotry. Religion is just one of many topics of conversation on this website and OK, some posters are opportunistic in making their points at times. But I don't see any obsession here. The people you accuse discuss issues all and sundry, and religion is a little way down the popularity chart. By accusing people of bigotry you are simply keeping the fire aflame, Joe. Not helping. Just because you're discussing a matter for which the Church is rightly being criticised, it doesn't mean that you have to include balance in every post. I've put balance in this post but you still think I'm a bigot, don't you?