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BS: Another year, same old story

Joe Offer 20 Jan 18 - 01:12 PM
Jim Carroll 20 Jan 18 - 02:10 PM
Steve Shaw 20 Jan 18 - 02:14 PM
Greg F. 20 Jan 18 - 02:18 PM
Gutcher 20 Jan 18 - 02:49 PM
Senoufou 20 Jan 18 - 03:00 PM
Greg F. 20 Jan 18 - 03:56 PM
Senoufou 20 Jan 18 - 04:13 PM
Greg F. 20 Jan 18 - 05:00 PM
mg 21 Jan 18 - 02:11 AM
Joe Offer 21 Jan 18 - 03:19 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Jan 18 - 03:46 AM
mg 21 Jan 18 - 04:57 AM
Raggytash 21 Jan 18 - 03:20 PM
Raggytash 22 Jan 18 - 10:46 AM
Greg F. 22 Jan 18 - 10:51 AM
Greg F. 22 Jan 18 - 10:53 AM
Mr Red 22 Jan 18 - 10:58 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Jan 18 - 11:12 AM
Joe Offer 23 Jan 18 - 12:31 AM
mg 23 Jan 18 - 01:19 AM
Joe Offer 23 Jan 18 - 01:33 AM
mg 23 Jan 18 - 02:18 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Jan 18 - 04:10 AM
Joe Offer 23 Jan 18 - 05:06 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Jan 18 - 06:18 AM
Joe Offer 23 Jan 18 - 02:32 PM
mg 23 Jan 18 - 02:44 PM
Joe Offer 23 Jan 18 - 02:59 PM
Donuel 24 Jan 18 - 10:05 AM
Greg F. 24 Jan 18 - 10:13 AM
Donuel 24 Jan 18 - 10:30 AM
Donuel 24 Jan 18 - 11:00 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Jan 18 - 11:29 AM
Donuel 24 Jan 18 - 12:48 PM
Greg F. 24 Jan 18 - 12:56 PM
Donuel 24 Jan 18 - 12:59 PM
Senoufou 24 Jan 18 - 01:49 PM
mg 24 Jan 18 - 02:06 PM
Jack Campin 24 Jan 18 - 02:44 PM
Jim Carroll 24 Jan 18 - 02:52 PM
Joe Offer 24 Jan 18 - 03:59 PM
Joe Offer 24 Jan 18 - 04:35 PM
Raggytash 24 Jan 18 - 04:57 PM
Donuel 24 Jan 18 - 05:37 PM
Joe Offer 24 Jan 18 - 06:36 PM
Greg F. 24 Jan 18 - 06:41 PM
Donuel 24 Jan 18 - 08:03 PM
Donuel 24 Jan 18 - 08:15 PM
Jim Carroll 24 Jan 18 - 08:34 PM

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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Joe Offer
Date: 20 Jan 18 - 01:12 PM

Well, no, Steve. Every once in a while, you make sense.

You say: But the Church HAS dragged its feet badly over sexual abuse and it HAS condoned the mistreatment of women and it HAS been utterly unreal in its teachings about contraception and those teachings HAVE caused harm, and it HAS been misogynistic and it HAS been antisemitic.

I would agree with every word of that assessment, and all of that deserves serious discussion.

If you haven't done so, take a look at the National Catholic Reporter article I linked to above:The article is an honest, critical, and very factual discussion of the sex scandal, and it isn't complimentary at all to the U.S. bishops. That's the kind of discussion we need - something that looks into the issue seriously and stays away from broad generalizations.

But that's not what we're getting here. Instead of delving into the facts of the situation, we're getting countless repetitions of surface information. The very frequency of the repetition distorts every discussion into bigotry. Raggytash started this thread with "yet more abuse" - but it was abuse he reported in another thread last year. If I mention the word "Jesuit," how long will it take for Jim Carroll to come out yet again with his twisted interpretation of "Give me the child at the age of 8, and I'll show you the man" ??? And then he'll go off once again on his Jesuit brainwashing theory. And Greg_F? Well, he's just habitually hateful.

I come from the Land of Bigotry, and I know bigotry when I see it. I've seen similar anti-crime logic used to condemn blacks and hispanics and gays and homeless people. It's hard to refute that sort of bigotry because it's based on facts - but it's distorted to create the illusion that the misconduct is an everyday occurrence committed by all members of the targeted class.

And yes, crime is a serious matter and must be dealt with seriously.

Not with the hysteria I see so often in these threads.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jan 18 - 02:10 PM

""Give me the child at the age of 8, and I'll show you the man""
Probably as long as it takes you to realise that these are crimes committed by more than a "few bad apples" and they were assisted by your church Joe
Whatever the Jesuits meant or didn't mean, the church ruled by fear and influence wherever it had any authority - especially in Catholic Ireland, where that authority was written into the new State - the last remnant of that power is hopefully about to be removed with the repeal of the 8th amendment
I grew up aware of the fear generated by the church - my father lost his when he was excommunicated for fighting in Spain; my mother never did and still allowed herself to be bullied out of her last pennies by a priest making his weekly visits.
Fear of the clergy who were prepared to abuse their power by the use of spiritual blackmail was a major factor in these crimes and the hierarchy stood by and let it happen - they even facilitated the atrocities by moving the perpetrators to parishes where they were not known
Say that this didn't happen please Joe and remove the scales from my eyes.
You and Keith may shout "bigot" as loud as you want - if bigotry is a hatred of those who abuse their power to rape children - guilty as charged
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jan 18 - 02:14 PM

Well hysteria is an absolute too far, and Greg is not hateful. Direct, undiplomatic and cussed awkward at times (I've taken lessons from you, Greg! ;-) ), but I actually believe that there's not a hateful bone in his body. And I can't definitely say that about everybody here. We can get a bit ardent, that's a fact. But I'd let you buy me a pint or three any time.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Jan 18 - 02:18 PM

And Greg_F? Well, he's just habitually hateful.

Habitually hateful? Well, fuck you then! And the priest you rode in on.

Happy now, Joe?


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Gutcher
Date: 20 Jan 18 - 02:49 PM

In the letters page of the Irish Times last year a gentleman under his own name and with the designation SJ confirmed Jim Carrols views on the said Society in unequifocal terms.
Perhaps Jim or another can dig a copy of the letter out of the archives and put it up on this thread {it being beyond my computer expertise to perform this task} No one from the SJ refuted the statement made in that letter.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Senoufou
Date: 20 Jan 18 - 03:00 PM

To get back to Juan Barras for a moment, I find it hard to imagine that victims from the past would lie about such a thing.
It must be incredibly difficult and require much courage to come forward and tell what happened. This kind of disgusting sexual abuse must have traumatised the victims and during all these years they would probably have been psychologically and mentally affected.

I'd concentrate on them rather than on squabbling and fighting amongst ourselves about religion, blame, name-calling and so on.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Jan 18 - 03:56 PM

To get back to Juan Barras for a moment, I find it hard to imagine that victims from the past would lie about such a thing.

Well, Joe obviously thinks they would. Why don't you take up the issue of squabbling, fighting about religion, blame, name-calling and so on with him.

Best,

Hateful Greg, ABA (Asshole Bigots Association, Inc.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Senoufou
Date: 20 Jan 18 - 04:13 PM

I'd hesitate to label anyone with those epithets Greg. The only people who are completely detestable in this matter are those who abuse/have abused children.
I don't believe for one moment that anyone on here (including Joe) condones paedophiles. It would simply be more civilised (and more profitable) if posts could be toned down a bit and views expressed with less vitriol.
I think the main root of all the distress in Chile is the 'expiry' of the right to lodge accusations. If only victims could do so in retrospect, as is acceptable in UK for example, the witnesses could be examined in a Court of Law and the matter concluded with Justice not conjecture.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Jan 18 - 05:00 PM

I'd hesitate to label anyone with those epithets Greg.

Joe doesn't seem to have that problem - in fact he's quite free with those epithets.

Of course, Trump & company are similarly adept at demonising personally those they disagree with or who are not of their particular group...........but I digress.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: mg
Date: 21 Jan 18 - 02:11 AM

o'malley has just spoken up and said the pope has cost pain to survivors...do you think? and if anyone thinks this problem is not happening all over the world, and I am referring specifically to the catholic church although others do of course...they are deluded. i understand wanting to protect the assets of the church, but not its pitiful, corrupted reputation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Joe Offer
Date: 21 Jan 18 - 03:19 AM

Senoufou says: To get back to Juan Barras for a moment, I find it hard to imagine that victims from the past would lie about such a thing.

I don't think ther victims would lie. I think that they firmly believe what they say - they're just not in a position to know whether Barras did a coverup or not.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jan 18 - 03:46 AM

"they're just not in a position to know whether Barras did a coverup or not."
Of course they are Joe - that is nonsense
A documentary on the most vicious and most prolific Clerical rapist, Brendan Smythe, showed clearly that the parents of victims went to their Bishop to report his rapes and were castigated by him for doing so.
Who is more likely to know whether Barras covered up the abuses, the victims or the Poe who has accused them of slander, just as Smythe's Bishop did.
This is a disgraceful affair and the Pope is behaving disgracefully, and in doing so he is damaging your religion.   
It is fairly obvious from THIS ARTICLE that the church was fully aware of the possibility tha Barros had covered up abuse - he was not just a colleague of the abuser - he was his protege.
It is not up to the victims to bring proof of the crimes they are accusing Barras of, it is up to the church to hold an enquiry on the accusations that have been made - thye haver gone on as if nothing has happened
The only good thing to have come out of all this is that it provides a perfect example of how the church, right up to the top echelons behaved throughout the whole period that the abuses took place and is now providing proof positive that the contrition expressed by the Vatican is as meaningless as a fart in a hurricane
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: mg
Date: 21 Jan 18 - 04:57 AM

i believe the victims claim the barros witnessed the abuse..as was right there. i have no idea if that is true or they made a story up. however. it stinks to high heaven and large portions of at least one country believe it is true. there was no need to promote him, given the fervor with which parishioners protested at the time. now they have firebombed 9 churches i believe.

and back to pell. what a disgrace to the world. not just the church. it is public knowledge how he treated the victims of abuse and their families and the pope pulls him up to the vatican amid huge outcries from australia. again, no need, unless to protect him from the law.

this pope is partially good and the rest absolutely horrid. he seems to have no sense of responsibility..that he inherited this mess and he is the one who has to tackle it or he should not have taken it on. we are rotten to the core and the world knows it and no amount of pussyfooting or insulting the victims is going to change that. only honesty will and we are not an honest church.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 Jan 18 - 03:20 PM

The clergy on a lighter note:

Skiing Priests


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 Jan 18 - 10:46 AM

Breaking news in the UK so I haven't got the whole story but it looks like Pope Francis is offering an apology to the people of Chile who he maligned.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Jan 18 - 10:51 AM

He's been busy taking on Chilean terrorists - gossiping nuns.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Jan 18 - 10:53 AM

'Scuse me - make that Peruvian terrorists.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Mr Red
Date: 22 Jan 18 - 10:58 AM

does he get a chilly reception?


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jan 18 - 11:12 AM

"offering an apology to the people of Chile who he maligned."
Hope he doesn't breathe too dep a sigh of rlief if his apology is accepted
Jim Carroll

From this morning's Irish Times
ORDER REPORTS NEW ABUSE CLAIMS AGAINST FORMER PRINCIPAL
Elaine Edwards
The St John of God order has said it has told the Garda S?ochana about new allegations of child abuse against a former school principal who subsequently went to work with children in Africa.
Br Aidan Clohessy was head of St Augustine's, a school for boys with special needs in Blackrock, Co Dublin, from 1970 until 1993, when he was relocated to Malawi.
The first serious child-abuse allegation was made against him in 1985; two new claims by former St Augustine's pupils emerged as late as this week, a newspaper report said on Sunday.

TWENTY ALLEGATIONS
The report claimed that up to 20 allegations were made against Br Clohessy up to 2014, and that when the State established the Residential Institutions Redress Board, in 2002, payouts were made to Irish accusers of Br Clohessy but he continued to work with children in Africa after that time. It also alleged that he had converted a garage at his home to house boys who had been on the streets.
Irish journalists were brought to Mzuzu, Malawi's third-largest city, in 2010 to see the work of the Tipperary-born brother, who had established an array of mental and other health services for some of the most vulnerable people there, including prisoners.
The St John of God Order said in a statement: "While the order cannot comment on individual cases or on cases arising from unsubstantiated reporting, it is responding in accordance with its safeguarding policies and procedures and has reported the allegations to the relevant authorities and will co-operate as required."
The order said it was reviewed in Ireland by the National Board for Safeguarding Children in the Catholic Church in December 2015 and had fully co-operated. "Up to 2012, the order fully accepts that its responses were not what they should have been in the reporting and management of cases."
All the allegations reviewed by the safeguarding board were reported to the Garda S?ochana and Tusla, the Child and Family Agency. "The St John of God Order reiterates its unreserved apology to any individual who has suffered any form of abuse while in its care," the statement said.
The order added it had "endeavoured to respond to and appropriately support any individual who has been hurt during their time in the care of the order" and that it "would urge anyone who may have suffered abuse or who has a concern to come forward, or to contact the relevant authorities".


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Jan 18 - 12:31 AM

I think that although it's old-fashioned, it still may be of value to argue from actual facts, and not from unfounded public opinion. There's an excellent 2015 article in the Catholic Herald (UK) that gives some solid information on the Barros situation. The writer of the article seems to think that Francis's appointment of Barros was unwise, although there is no solid evidence against Barros. It still seems to me to be a case of "all smoke and no fire." But yet, there has been strong and even violent opposition to Barros.

Let's look at this thing again. There has been a lot of opposition to Barros, but yet the Pope named him bishop in 2015, and continues to support Barros. The politically expedient thing would be for the Pope to give in to public opinion and remove Barros and sentence him to "a life of penance and prayer." What has the Pope to gain by supporting Barros? - nothing. His decision to support Barros is politically foolhardy.

The Pope gains nothing from supporting Barros, so why would he do it? I think he does it, because he firmly believes that it's the right thing to do - and he's taking a big risk by continuing to support such a controversial figure. This Pope has shown a habit of doing what's the right thing to do, even though it may be unpopular.

Up above, I said, "they're (the victims) just not in a position to know whether Barras did a coverup or not."
And Jim Carroll replied Of course they are Joe - that is nonsense.

But is it nonsense? Again, we're dealing with thirty-year-old offenses. Barros was apparently a subordinate of a child molester priest. What do we really know about what he knew? Child molesters ordinarily do their deeds in private, and they are extremely clever at covering up what they've done. That cleverness is what allows them to seduce children - but I think that molesters are equally able to seduce the adults around them into thinking that nothing is wrong. But since Barros was close to the molester, a huge number of people are sure he must have known what the molester was doing. As far as I can see, that's the only "evidence" against Barros - guilt by association. He was close to the offender, so he should have known.

I an embarrassed to say that I have known a number of child molesters. I went to the seminary with them. Generally, I thought of them as extremely good people - but yet ten years after I knew them, they were molesting children. Never would I have expected these good guys to do such a horrible thing, but I have to face the fact that they did.

I think that may well be the situation with Barros. He served under the molester, but there's a good chance he had no idea that this seemingly-admirable priest was molesting children.

I think that we all know molesters - but yet most of the time, we don't know anything at all about the crimes they are committing. Child abuse is one of the best-hidden crimes in existence.

I think that those who are to blame should be punished, and removed from any positions from which they might be able to do further harm. But as with any crime, I think we need to be sure we're blaming the people who actually are to blame. I think the Pope is right to ask for evidence, and for specific information. I haven't seen any specific information about Barros, other than the fact that he worked closely with a child molester. So did I my friends, so did I - and I had no knowledge of that until decades later.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: mg
Date: 23 Jan 18 - 01:19 AM

i do not think the pope named him bishop . he was already a bishop and he gave him a new job, which he did not need to do. there are testimonies from victims or maybe just one that barros was a witness to abuse. not someone who shuffled papers around to protect someone. a witness. put that in your pipe and smoke it. whether it is true or mass hysteria i do not know. but 30 priests and deacons wrote to the pope; there was a popular uprising in the church building itself. read up everyone. http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/news/2015/03/31/vatican-decision-to-appoint-bishop-juan-barros-was-correct/

if a large part of a country is up in arms, if the window dressing commission the pope himself did not want this..why in the world was it done? look again at pell. why oh why do we have such people in a church. there is something really really wrong with this pope, despite some good works with refugees, homeless etc. no one has blind spots this big. i don't know if someone is pulling his strings..i don't know. none of it adds up.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Jan 18 - 01:33 AM

Here's a very insightful article about the Barros situation from 2015, at the time Francis appointed Barros to the Diocese of Osorno, Chile:While I have to admit that the evidence weighs heavily against the Pope, I continue this think that the Pope must have made the appointment because he believed and still believes it to be the right thing to do. Politically, the decision to appoint Barros was disastrous, and Pope Francis had nothing to gain from making the appointment.

Here's the Wikipedia article on the Karadima case:


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: mg
Date: 23 Jan 18 - 02:18 AM

he must have had something to gain. a passive aggressive poke in the eye to the "stupid" people in the diocese. A slap to his own commission. Points with Opus Dei and all those weird religious orders that spring up with charismatic leaders and sordid secrets. some deal with vatican people who might somewhat dictate to him. i do not know. he could have left well enough alone. he could have appointed him to some archival job. who knows. it stinks to high heaven.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jan 18 - 04:10 AM

"But is it nonsense? Again, we're dealing with thirty-year-old offenses"
That were taking place throughout the church on a world scale, in which covering up for and passing on abusive clergy was not just commonplace but was a standard reaction when the problem got out of hand
That may be circumstantial evidence, but it's enough to sway any jury
The St John of God Order, which you choose not to comment on (and who's to blame you) is an example where a serial abuser was not just passed on, but was allowed to set up a home for street children which he used as his own personal supply of victims.
Examlples like this make the Church just as guilty as the perpetrators - if not more so.
The perps could claim illness as an excuse for their behavior - the Church did what it did out of self-preservation
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Jan 18 - 05:06 AM

Hi, Jim -
I don't know of the St. John of God Order. If you have factual information about it, please let us know about it.

I do know about the Legionaries of Christ an order founded by Macial Maciel, a child molester who basked in the favor of Pope John Paul II. Cardinal Ratzinger knew what he was up to, and banished him as soon as he became Pope Benedict XVI. The bishop of my Sacramento diocese welcomed the Legionaries, and they started a seminary for 12-year-old boys about 5 miles from my home. The seminary closed when Maciel was banished, apparently before any 12-yr-old boys were molested.

That same bishop named John Corapi Chief of Doctrine in our diocese, and this was a very dangerous man. He was very popular and developed a "following." I wrote a letter to the editor of the diocesan newspaper, complaining about Corapi. I was castigated for my letter for months afterwards. I felt really good years later, when Corapi left the priesthood in disgrace.

Weirdos like Corapi and the Legionaries arise occasionally in the Catholic Church, and they occasionally find favor with local bishops. I'm sure they're very much like your St. John of God people, Jim. I've felt an obligation to oppose such people with all the fervor I can muster. They embarrass the hell out of me.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jan 18 - 06:18 AM

"I don't know of the St. John of God Order. If you have factual information about it, please let us know about it."
The article from the Irish Times is reproduced iin full above Joe
22 Jan 18 - 11:12 AM
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Jan 18 - 02:32 PM

Oh, okay. You're not going to like my response, Jim, but the St. John of God order responded in a way that I would call the norm before 2002. The Catholic church had not yet developed procedures for dealing with child molestation, and they simply did not know what to do. At the time, other institutions who employed molesters were responding in the same way. As I said above, the Catholic church in the United States knew of the problem in 1985, and there were high ranking people in the church who had developed policies for responding. My diocese and many others developed their own policies that were made nationwide in 2002, and those dioceses had relatively few problems. However, those in power in the national bishops' organization chose to ignore the problem at that time. In other words, politics took precedence over doing the right thing. More-or-less the same thing happened in Ireland and in most parts of Europe - many responded properly, but the people in power in the national organizations took no action. And Rome thought it was the job of the national organizations to handle it. And I think it's safe to say that the national organizations were afraid to interfere with the autonomy of local bishops. And that let certain local bishops get away with murder.

I knew this was happening since the 1980s, because the National Catholic Reporter reported every step of the way. But the newspaper was considered to be a liberal rag that was undermining the authority and respectability of the Church and showing gross disrespect for bishops and for His Holiness, John Paul II. We kept speaking out, but those in authority refused to respond. They followed political expediencies until they finally were shaken to their senses in 2002 and years following.

You may well agree with me, Jim, up to this point. But here's where we diverge. The bishops who cast those fatal votes to ignore the problem, were just casting individual votes and did not realize the impact of their votes. They saw all this as a threat to their individual authority to control their own dioceses, and they voted against that thread and had no awareness of the impact on the children who were victims. And not, the rules have been in place for 15 years and are working - for the most part. And the people who cast those votes are dead or in their dotage. And we have a Pope who wants to do the right thing. But you're still rubbing our faces in the shit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: mg
Date: 23 Jan 18 - 02:44 PM

They did not always and everywhere ignore the problem. They forced abuses from law enforcement, the judicial system, suppressed news reporting, prob interfered with health providers. These are the people who disgustingly tried to teach us right from wrong.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Jan 18 - 02:59 PM

That's too simplistic a view, mg. The people who taught you right from wrong were mostly women who were great people and great teachers, but they had no power. The men who had the power were worried about political expediencies, had their heads so buried in politics that they had no clue about the impact of their politics on children.

One nun who had been a Catholic school principal at the time, told me, "We told the bishops time and time again what those priests were doing, Joe. But the bishops wouldn't listen."

And now those bishops are dead, and we're left with the mess.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 10:05 AM

Too Simplistic?

Well you got your child rapists on one side and the children on the other. Obviously good people "on both sides".

Under the radar you got your third side; the fixers, the smoothers and the justifying RECTAFYERS quietly rectumfying the situation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 10:13 AM

child rapists on one side and the children on the other. Obviously good people "on both sides".

Oh?

Rather like Trump's "good Nazis, racists, and white supremacists" ???


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 10:30 AM

Like Hirshfield hid his daughters name NINA in each of his drawings I have quotes or allusions to events in some of my posts that is not always so obvious.

sometimes ya gotta entertain yerself.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 11:00 AM

Greg you may have missed 'rectumfying'


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 11:29 AM

"responded in a way that I would call the norm before 2002"
You mean up to the point where the the extent of the abuses hit the fan Joe - no problem with that whatever
If they didn't "know what to do" when they found the clergy were molesting (raping actually) children without "a strategy", than they were not fit to have children in their care
Surely, the first thing any thinking human being does is to prevent the offender from having any contact whatever with children - maybe what happens top the perp once he is discovered needs a plan, but that's it.
Instead, fellow priests stayed silent, Bishops catigated the parents and the predators were passed from parish to parish until their behaviour became to apparent to be hidden - then Africa became their stamping ground.
The hierarchy were a part of these abuses and the Vatican still refuses to release the documented evidence of them - the blunders of a Pope who seems to be a breath of fresh air, compared to what has gone before, is evidence enough that the Church still doesn't realise the enormity of this affair.
Ireland (one "Holy Ireland" is an interesting place to live at present
The Church is fighting desperately to hold on to its hold over children through the schools, the priests are preaching to near-empty churches and this morning Ireland has been told by the American business community that unless the schools drop their 'baptismal certificate' demand it will have a detrimental impact on trade with your country.
This year we will see yet another referendum on the rights of women to terminate pregnancy and the church is already sharpening its knives for the fray (pretty much as it did with same-sex marriage)
Interestingly, the Pro-Life crowd have employed the services of the agency that got Trump elected into office.
"Happy days are here again"
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 12:48 PM

The ex team USA gymnastics doctor sentenced to up to 175 years for criminal sexual abuse against children.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 12:56 PM

And another good "christian" apparently - Nassar taught religion classes at the Catholic church in East Lansing, MI.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 12:59 PM

Finally a different story.

perhaps because the judge was a woman, the victims were female and the male church was not involved.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Senoufou
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 01:49 PM

Now why are UK sentences for paedophiles so lamentably short?
While I feel that Judge Aquilina said some rather strange things not all that appropriate in a Court of Law ("I have just signed your Death Warrant" for example) she certainly didn't hold back with his punishment.

In addition, that dire Presidents Club in London which used to hold men's evenings for charity at the Dorchester Hotel had been hurriedly disbanded after dozens of waitresses were groomed, groped and treated like meat. Great Ormond Street Hospital has even returned the charity money they were given by this bunch of rich entitled pervs.

Two great victories for women in one day. Yay!


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: mg
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 02:06 PM

No. The pope has no intention of doing the right thing in this area.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Jack Campin
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 02:44 PM

The people who taught you right from wrong were mostly women who were great people and great teachers, but they had no power.

The Smyllum case in Scotland (inquiry currently going on) is rather telling. Some of the current senior nuns are publicly admitting responsibility on behalf of their order - but pretty weakly, and the one thing they NEVR do is name any more names. They will unwillingly concede that the victims' testimony is true, but they will NOT provide information leading to the exposure of any abuse that hasn't already become public. They MUST know where the bodies are buried (and quite literally so in this case).

There is, now, nothing to stop elderly priests, nuns and monks from voluntarily walking into a police station to report what they know. None of them ever do so.

They DO have power in this situation - the power to testify. And they aren't using it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 02:52 PM

"And another good "christian" apparently "
Don't start that or wee will have to mention the family that has been kept imprisoned by their devout Christian parents
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 03:59 PM

I can't disagree with any of the many incidents you report. Unfortunately, almost all of them are true, no matter how many times you repeat them.

I do object to the statements from many of you that these criminals are examples of "good Christians."

That's where you pass into bigotry.

The Catholic Church has been laid low by this scandal, no doubt about it. We're suffering greatly because of it. It was our children who were victims of these crimes, and we are appalled by this criminal conduct. We don't deny the crimes that have been committed. We're trying to get beyond it and get back to things like working for justice for the poor and migrants.

Thank you for kicking us when we're down, you bigots.

It wasn't all that long ago when there were laws against Catholics in the U.S. and Europe, and particularly in England. Jesuits were outlawed in many parts of the world, and eventually even the Pope caved into political pressure and suppressed the Jesuits. Not very long ago at all, Catholics were a primary target of the Ku Klux Klan. Seems like many of you are yearning to carry on that tradition of bigotry.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 04:35 PM

Somebody called my attention to this article in The Atlantic.
It's true. It's a fascinating story, and it shows how really weird Pope Piux IX ("Pio Nono") was. Please note that word "some" in the headline. It's a very important qualifier. Too many of you bigots are too quick to change that word to "all." And that's when you become a bigot. This incident does not describe what most Catholics consider being a "good Catholic." The vast majority of Catholics do not applaud such conduct or child molestation or any of the long list of weirdnesses you bigots cite. When you scoff and call these criminals "good Christians," you insult the rest of us. And that makes you a bigot.

Don't like being judged a bigot? Don't be one.

Why Some Catholics Defend the Kidnapping of a Jewish Boy

It?s not about the Church?s relationship with Jews. It?s about the culture war inside the Church.

One summer evening in 1858, the police showed up at the home of a Jewish family in Bologna, Italy, and took their six-year-old child. Authorities had discovered that the child, Edgardo Mortara, had been secretly baptized when he was a baby. Edgardo had fallen gravely ill and his Catholic nanny baptized him for fear that he would die a Jew and be locked out of heaven. But Edgardo survived?and, in the eyes of the Church, he was now a Catholic. Papal law mandated that all Catholic children must receive a Catholic education, and so he was separated from his Jewish family, with Pope Pius IX personally overseeing his religious education.

The ?Mortara case? spurred a wave of protests, with activists and intellectuals from Europe and the U.S. petitioning Pius IX to return the child to his parents. The pope refused. Edgardo eventually became a priest, and in 1940 he died in a Belgian monastery. The Vatican never apologized for his kidnapping specifically. But in 2000, John Paul II issued an apology for the persecution of Jews. Today, the dominant Catholic attitude toward the Mortara case is one of regret: ?It?s not one of the episodes that the Church is very proud of,? Massimo Faggioli, a Church historian at Villanova University, told me.

Now, however, conservative voices are defending Pius IX?s decision to abduct a Jewish boy. In the latest issue of First Things, a right-leaning Catholic magazine, the Dominican priest and theologian Romanus Cessario wrote a review of Kidnapped by the Vatican? The Unpublished Memoirs of Edgardo Mortara, which recently appeared in English translation. In the book, author Vittorio Messori, an Italian Church historian, goes through Mortara?s personal archive and defends the abduction. Likewise, Cessario calls the law upon which Pius IX acted ?not unreasonable? and casts Edgardo?s kidnapping in a positive light: ?Divine Providence kindly arranged for his being introduced into a regular Christian life.?

Cessario?s essay spurred strong reactions within the Catholic world. Michael Sean Winters, writing for the National Catholic Reporter, called it ?morally repugnant? and ?intellectually deplorable.? Catholic intellectual Robert George called it ?an embarrassment.? Meanwhile, the Mortara family is upset that some people have the chutzpah to defend the abduction today: ?It really hurt, when we heard some are still defending Pius IX,? Eléna Mortara, the great-granddaughter of Edgardo?s older sister, told me. She said that Edgardo?s kidnapping has always been an open wound for the family, ?something we still discuss at every Passover,? even if it sometimes provokes dark humor: ?We had this inside joke about being the only Jewish family with a priest uncle.?

The Mortara case has, in recent memory, been a source of tension between Catholics and Jews. When the process of beatifying Pius IX began 18 years ago, the Italian Jewish community protested. The descendants of the Mortara family wrote an open letter to John Paul II, asking him not to make the man who?d kidnapped their relative into a candidate for sainthood who would be publicly venerated. Pius was beatified anyway. Today, however, Steven Spielberg is making a film about the Mortara case, and Eléna Mortara says that defending the kidnapping has become ?a very marginal position.?

So what?s driving some conservative intellectuals, like Cessario and Messori, to defend it? Anti-Semitism does not appear to be their motivation. ?I hold Jewish people and the Jewish faith in high regard,? Messori told me. ?It?s where Christianity came from.?

Rather than being about Catholics? attitudes toward Jews, the debate about the Mortara case today is more about a war raging inside the Catholic Church. Since the Second Vatican Council, which addressed the Church?s relationship to the modern world, the Church has progressively changed its posture toward secular morality, a process that has accelerated under Pope Francis. This change has led to discontent in the most traditionalist sectors of the Church.

?There is a backlash. It has been going on for 30 years, but now that we have a progressive pope, it?s getting stronger,? Faggioli, the historian, told me. The defenses of the Mortara kidnapping are part of what he described as ?a full-fledged culture war? inside the Church: ?They?re saying that what the Vatican has done in the past 30 years is wrong, and we should go back to Pius IX?s days, when the only thing that counted was the law of the Church.? Defending the Mortara abduction now, he added, is a ?way to attack, indirectly, the direction that the Church has taken.? Other progressive Catholics have expressed a similar interpretation in recent days.

It?s worth noting, however, that when some traditionalists defend the fact that their Church kidnapped a Jewish boy, they?re not just waxing nostalgic about the good old days when an almighty pope could do as he pleased. They?re making a larger theological argument?about divine doctrine trumping human morality, and about religion taking precedence over civil rights.

Both Cessario and Messori are quite explicit about this. ?Should putative civil liberties trump the requirements of faith?? Cessario writes. It?s a rhetorical question. In his book, Messori makes a similar point, encouraging a return to a Katholischeweltanschauung, or Catholic worldview, in which the salvation of the soul is deemed more important than other concerns.

In their eyes, that?s what the Mortara case comes down to. Yes, taking a little boy from his parents is horrible. Yes, it goes against all our moral intuitions as human beings. But Pius IX was answering to a higher moral authority, one rooted in Catholic doctrine. And that doctrine obliged him to save Edgardo?s soul. It was, Messori said, a painful decision: ?Pius was aware of the drama that he was inflicting, but he had no choice.?

Not every traditionalist subscribes to the view that kidnapping a baptized Jewish boy is commendable. Many cringe at the idea; for instance, Catholic traditionalist scholar Joseph Shaw insisted that the Mortara kidnapping is ?one of the most indefensible actions by any pope of modern times.? Traditionalism is a wide galaxy of conservative Catholics that encompasses those who would go so far as to repeal Vatican II as well as those who simply wish that Francis were a bit more cautious. But the Mortara case highlights a belief that is dear to many of them: Revealed doctrine must be upheld even when it conflicts with what some would call ?universal human values.?

As Francis softens the Church?s stance on homosexuality, remarriage after divorce, and other issues, some traditionalists are discomfited by an approach they describe as anthropocentrism?putting secularly-derived human values, as opposed to transcendent values, first. They see the Church as dramatically changing its position, from demanding that human beings adapt to its teaching, to adapting its teaching to human values.

?There?s always a tension between Catholic and secular morality,? Dan Hitchens, a deputy editor at the Catholic Herald, told me. Many Catholics, he said, ?are increasingly skeptical about the ideal of a neutral, secular authority. Partly this is because of recent experience.? He cited, as an example, a new Canadian government decision stipulating that ?to receive certain kinds of government funding, churches have to sign up to respect ?individual human rights.? But as of last month, these rights turn out to include abortion.?

The notion that there?s an intrinsic tension between religious morality and secular morality has historically convinced some European nations that keeping organized religion out of the public realm is a prerequisite for democracy. This is visible not only in France?s laïcité, a strict flavor of secularism, but also in Italy?s recent history. When the modern Italian state was born, only three years after the Mortara case, Italian nationalists openly opposed the Vatican and clashed with papal troops. Pius IX reacted by forbidding practicing Catholics from voting in the country?s elections. The voting ban, however, was revoked in 1919. Although some understand Church ethics to be immutable, in practice, that hasn?t been the case. Throughout its history, the Church has always tried to strike a balance between its moral system and the dominant moral systems of the time.

The Church and its followers are still trying, as the recent Mortara flare-up shows. Even those who slam the defenders of the kidnapping admit that there?s a non-trivial theological issue at the core of the debate. The Mortara case ?raises important issues,? Hitchens told me, ?but I?m not sure it raises them in the best context.? Conservative Christian thinker Rod Dreher, who called Cessario?s argument ?grotesque,? nevertheless writes: ?Theologically the Mortara case is a challenging question, because Christians really do believe that baptism is a permanent thing. We really do believe that Christianity is objectively true. Plus, modern people have to be very careful about judging the acts of people from much earlier ages by our standards today.?

It seems that in their desire to attack Francis?s approach, traditionalists are weaponizing an old narrative that, however objectionable, does contain a genuine theological issue that intellectually honest Catholics cannot easily dismiss. Perhaps it?s only by reckoning with this issue on the level of theology that they?ll be able to finally defuse the weapon.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 04:57 PM

Once again Joe I will reiterate that no-one is accusing YOU of being responsible for any of the atrocities that have been committed by some of your faith.

YOU ARE NOT TO BLAME FOR ANY OF THIS.

Is that clear, no one is attacking you, I have said this on so many occasions I have lost count.

Once again.

YOU ARE NOT TO BLAME FOR ANY OF THIS.

However, some of your colleagues, within your faith have been so remiss, so negligent, so derelict, so thoughtless, so offhand and unconcerned about the victims of prolonged abuse that I will persist in bringing this subject to the fore.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 05:37 PM

Suppose you are a cop dealing with crime. Crime is still somewhat abstract until he becomes the victim, Your POV is changed forever,

A bigot in this sense is a victim. A person with an abstract POV may not understand especially if they see themselves as being their ego. The greatest con job consciousness can commit is making us think we are who or what our ego says we are. We are more than that. When ego is no longer the boss, we go from being humans to human beings.
The same goes for victims.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 06:36 PM

After the 25-year, oppressive reign of John Paul II, we finally have a Pope I can believe in, somebody who is trying to clean up the mess. He may make mistakes here and there, but he seems to be trying to do his best. But you guys are all over my Pope and my church like rats on a carcass.

And your "good Christian" mockery is a prime example of your bigotry.

Although it may happen in our midst, Catholics don't support child molestation and don't consider child molesters to be "good Christians."

I know that many of you believe in combat as it it were a religion, but that's offensive to a lot of us who prefer peaceful, constructive discussion.

Your constant attacks on my church are offensive. And for many of you, your attacks are constant on many fronts. And that's offensive.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 06:41 PM

Thank you for kicking us [Christians] when we're down, you bigots.

That's OK, Joe -

1. Re-read 24 Jan 18 - 04:57 PM

2. Take comfort in the fact that good "Christians" like Trump, Joe Arpaio, Roy Moore, Tony Perkins, Franklin Graham & the rest of 'em call us "bigots" waging a war on Christianity,too.

Greg F.
Hateful Bigots Association of America.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 08:03 PM

Let me expand my prior comments;

Ego boundaries make enemies that do not exist Joe. I will now be speaking in advanced religio-psychoanalysis terms. I don't expect you to get it right away except to say, no one is attacking you, except yourself.

This is all naturally confounding until you have the ah ha moment.

In religion the ego manifests as the Devil. And of course no one realizes how smart the ego is because it created the devil so you could blame someone else. The ego is the worst confidence trickster we could ever imagine because you don't see it. It's con is "I am you. The ego hides in the last place you would ever look, within itself. It disguises its thoughts as your thoughts it disguises its feelings as your feelings. You think its you.
People who need to protect their own egos knows no bounds, they lie, deny, cheat, steal, kill, do whatever it takes to maintain ego boundaries. People have no clue they are in a kind of prison, they don't know they have an ego, They don't know the distinction.
At first it is hard for the mind to accept there is something beyond itself, there is something of greater value, that there is something greater than itself. There is no such thing as an external enemy, no matter what that voice in your head is telling you, all projection of an enemy is a projection of the ego as an enemy. Your greatest enemy is your own ego, your own ignorance, your own casting of your own enemies. These come from a variety of religious teachings and psychology, not just one dogma or a religion that collects and trains egos.

Finding the ah ha moment is most challenging for a straight line (linear} person to achieve.
Then you will know We are not bigots, we are not the enemy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 08:15 PM

Let me expand my prior comments;

Ego boundaries make enemies that do not exist Joe. I speak in second religious-psychoanalysis terms. I don't expect you to get it right away except to say no one is attacking you, except yourself.

This is all naturally confounding until you have the ah ha moment

Finding the ah ha moment is most challenging for a person to achieve but if you do you will know We are not bigots, we are not the enemy and some religious teachings will be seen in a new light


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 08:34 PM

"Your constant attacks on my church are offensive. "
Your constant defence of the protecting of serial paedophelia by your church is equally offensive
I asked you some time ago if the things I described happened
You have yet to reply
Jim Carroll


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