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BS: Another year, same old story
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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 09 Jan 18 - 10:21 AM I have just read all your posts on this thread again. I was not lying. You have never attacked any other group on this. All you have done is to attempt to justify your always and only singling out the catholic Church. Joe had it right days ago. "But somehow, it seems to be that there comes a point when the frequency of your oh-so-righteous shaming of Catholics becomes an act of bigotry. I think you passed that point long ago, and your obsession has become just plain bigotry." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story From: Steve Shaw Date: 09 Jan 18 - 08:50 AM I told you. Look through the thread. Now please stop telling lies. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 09 Jan 18 - 08:45 AM You have never attacked any group over child abuse except clerics who you have singled out endlessly. Again you resort to abuse when your case crumbles. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story From: Steve Shaw Date: 09 Jan 18 - 06:03 AM Just evaporate, please, troll. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 09 Jan 18 - 05:27 AM Especially the bit where I said that I have not just confined my criticism to clerics Remind me of any other group you have attacked over child abuse. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story From: Steve Shaw Date: 09 Jan 18 - 05:01 AM Read my post again, cloth-ears. Especially the bit where I said that I have not just confined my criticism to clerics. Repeating untruths like a robot will never make them true, another lesson that you have still to learn. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 09 Jan 18 - 04:50 AM Steve, if you mean that I have doubts about my faith, you are right. Be wary of anyone who says they do not. I just wonder why you always and only discuss one kind of child abuse and ignore all others. Pfr, Keith - and how many of that lot would claim to be respectable people of faith...??? Any of them could. Steve, Likewise, you can't take the slightest criticism of Israel or the Tory party or of Nigel Farage. Yes I can, but I have challenged criticisms that I consider unfair or unreasonable or plain false. Your resort to "they did it as well, Miss" I do not. I just point out that you unfairly single out certain groups for criticism while ignoring other and often much worse cases. I see that as bigotry. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story From: Steve Shaw Date: 08 Jan 18 - 03:36 PM You are clearly so sound in your adherence to your religion that you really should be laughing this off, Mr Acheson. But you don't, because you aren't, are you. You are so insecure and it shows: your favoured means of defence is to attack us and call us bigots. Likewise, you can't take the slightest criticism of Israel or the Tory party or of Nigel Farage. As a matter of fact I've just been through this thread and I've found four posts of mine (there may be more) in which I go to pains to point out that this not just about the clergy. Your resort to "they did it as well, Miss" is a long-discredited tactic here and I'm amazed that you still try to use it. You are reverting to your childhood. Take a look in your mirror and observe a real bigot of the most detestable kind. Then go and have a lie down. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story From: Raggytash Date: 08 Jan 18 - 03:31 PM No the professor is quite right to mention the case in the news today of a football coach who has been found guilty of child abuse. Yet another man trusted by parents to nurture, care and educated their children, yet another example of appalling abuse of those same children and the trust of the parents. BUT, I have to add, that unlike some clergy he was not moved to another area when that abuse was discovered and allowed by his employers to continue that self same abuse. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story From: punkfolkrocker Date: 08 Jan 18 - 02:19 PM "Another case of child abuse by a football coach in the news today. Then there is child abuse by teachers, family members and friends, grooming gangs, youth organisation volunteers, people traffickers and all the others." Keith - and how many of that lot would claim to be respectable people of faith...??? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 08 Jan 18 - 01:31 PM Another case of child abuse by a football coach in the news today. Then there is child abuse by teachers, family members and friends, grooming gangs, youth organisation volunteers, people traffickers and all the others. Why does only clerical abuse matter to you? As Joe said, it looks like just an excuse to attack religion. Just bigotry. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story From: Steve Shaw Date: 07 Jan 18 - 05:33 PM No-one denies that, and in fact I've referred to it in this thread. But organised religions are a special case of revered and held-sacred institutions which offer the opportunity for miscreants, trusted by the people, to be harboured. Being that special case gives them a special responsibility. We want to see that addressed, openly and honestly and a damn sight more promptly than we've been used to seeing. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story From: keberoxu Date: 07 Jan 18 - 04:45 PM again, a space opened up for consideration of man's abuse of fellow man has been polarized around religion. Yes, man's abuse of fellow man is incomplete without the well-documented history of organized religion; and that history has enabled and support continued abuse. It is also a fact that abuse thrives in places where religion is unwelcome, and I didn't read that in a book -- I learned it in a household that maintained a facade of humane tolerance and made religion unwelcome, while generations of abuse were as carefully sheltered as any other part of the family legacy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story From: Steve Shaw Date: 05 Jan 18 - 10:54 AM You've highlighted not just accidental little peccadillos of religions, Senoufou, but inevitable, inherent and institutionalised problems caused by male hegemonies, which is what all major religions are. As Moses and Jesus probably never actually existed, Nigel... One of the tenets of organised religions has always been that we must succumb to a higher power in order to keep ourselves in line. Not one scrap of evidence has ever been presented to confirm that. The suspicious thing is that, without that tenet, religions would fall apart. No wonder it's so tightly clung to. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story From: Donuel Date: 05 Jan 18 - 09:55 AM Uh oh I am repeating stories like Trump |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story From: Donuel Date: 05 Jan 18 - 09:43 AM Its been 35 years since I first equated elements of religion with hypnosis. Latin: religio - to bind/tie together hypnosis can bind thoughts and actions together The Jesuits got wind I was making this connection. They were not interested in the nuance of this, they only wanted to determine if this publicized concept was a danger to them. They called me to their establishment to examine me. There were 4 priests and no women I had only started my 4 year participation in all the major religions so it was clear I knew little about religion but I could claim proficiency in science. I told them that I preferred to have a doubting agnosticism. I knew of the scholarly foundation of the Jesuit order so I didn't expect an attack but attack they did. They invested in a big fancy hypnosis office and practitioner of their own but from a Jesuit Christian POV. I told them later it was a matter of caring, I don't care and it doesn't matter. Several years later they had a change of heart and wanted to be friends. Perhaps they still thought I was an enemy to be kept close but not being sure I cut all ties. I was still studying religion by practicing and I was up to Buddhism. What I took away from the Jesuits is that like a military they attack first and then decide what to do and why...but intelligently. I left town soon thereafter.Its been 35 years since I first equated elements of religion with hypnosis. Latin: religio - to bind/tie together hypnosis can bind thoughts and actions together The Jesuits got wind I was making this connection. They were not interested in the nuance of this, they only wanted to determine if this publicized concept was a danger to them. They called me to their establishment to examine me. There were 4 priests and no women I had only started my 4 year participation in all the major religions so it was clear I knew little about religion but I could claim proficiency in science. I told them that I preferred to have a doubting agnosticism. I knew of the scholarly foundation of the Jesuit order so I didn't expect an attack but attack they did. They invested in a big fancy hypnosis office and practitioner of their own but from a Jesuit Christian POV. I told them later it was a matter of caring, I don't care and it doesn't matter. Several years later they had a change of heart and wanted to be friends. Perhaps they still thought I was an enemy to be kept close but not being sure I cut all ties. I was still studying religion by practicing and I was up to Buddhism. What I took away from the Jesuits is that like a military they attack first and then decide what to do and why...but intelligently. I left town soon thereafter. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story From: Senoufou Date: 05 Jan 18 - 09:17 AM What irks me most about the major religions is their inherent misogyny. Things may be slowly changing, but most of them put women at a very low position in their order of things. This is particularly so in my husband's religion of Islam. But reading the Bible (especially the Old Testament) one would conclude that women were of little or no importance at all, and were there to be controlled and used. I also abhor the homophobia which is still seen as relevant in many belief systems. When abuse takes place, it is often with a sense of entitlement, dominance and superiority (for example, the Rochdale Muslims' abuse of white girls, whom they saw as mere kafirs) Very dangerous... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story From: Dave the Gnome Date: 05 Jan 18 - 09:13 AM Those originating the laws (whether Moses & Christ, or the priests) provided a sound footing for future laws. In which case I guess that China, which has had very little influence from Jewish blokes in long frocks, must be a wasteland of lawlessness. It just goes to show what a good job those religious leaders did if people can still seriously believe that without religion the world would have descended into anarchy and probably destroyed itself before it had chance to develop. DtG |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story From: Jack Campin Date: 05 Jan 18 - 09:08 AM This Thread is about a thirty-year-old series of offenses that Raggytash had already reported last August. No new misconduct, No new insights, No new anything. Maybe not where you are, but the details of how the case has been more or less wrapped up have been front-page news in the UK, and it was a minor story back in August. I hadn't heard of it before, and a case of such monstrous things being done in one of the most boringly bourgeois bits of England would have stuck in my mind. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story From: Jim Carroll Date: 05 Jan 18 - 09:02 AM "Some would say that religion arose to control it" Perhaps Nigel, but the churches came long after the rituals, which in many ways resembled the firing of guns into apple trees to ensure a good crop as still being remembered in some of the wassailing ceremonies Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story From: Nigel Parsons Date: 05 Jan 18 - 08:29 AM Whatever benefits religion has achieved are simply accidental. I believe that the 'rule of law', which in many countries is based on Judeo-Christian values is hardly accidental. Those originating the laws (whether Moses & Christ, or the priests) provided a sound footing for future laws. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story From: Steve Shaw Date: 05 Jan 18 - 08:12 AM It'll be a religion tonight during the Liverpool-Everton derby match (Where DO they put that third set of goalposts...?), Dave. Religion is a pretty poor attempt at explaining anything. It routinely seeks by far the least likely explanations, those based on myth and magic and the supernatural, always studiously avoiding real evidence, "explanations" which not only can't explain anything but, worse, can't be explained themselves. We all have our irrational moments but I think it's quite likely that inchoate mystical ideas were pounced on opportunistically by community bigwigs who saw the potential for using myth and the human predilection for letting imagination run riot to generate awe and fear and to allow them to control people. Whatever benefits religion has achieved are simply accidental. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story From: Nigel Parsons Date: 05 Jan 18 - 07:55 AM I think it's been established that religion arose to explain life in order to control it to the advantage of the people Some would say that religion arose to control it to the advantage of the priesthood (or clan chiefs or whatever) rather than for the benefit of the people. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story From: Jim Carroll Date: 05 Jan 18 - 07:34 AM ""Religion is an attempt by mankind to seek meaning in what they see around them" That is philosophy Joe - something you would not associate with primitive man I think it's been established that religion arose to explain life in order to control it to the advantage of the people - the elements, crop growth, etc Basicc anthropology Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story From: Dave the Gnome Date: 05 Jan 18 - 04:54 AM Organized religion is a necessary structure to allow for people to gather Religion is not required for people to gather at all. They gather at concerts, festivals and football matches. Mind you, some would say the last one is a religion :-) DtG |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story From: Joe Offer Date: 05 Jan 18 - 04:46 AM Jim Carroll says: Religion is an attempt by mankind to explain what they see around them and is probably as old as mankind itself I think maybe I would say, "Religion is an attempt by mankind to seek meaning in what they see around them and is probably as old as mankind itself." Organized religion is a necessary structure to allow for people to gather - and it carries all the problems of such organizations. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story From: Jim Carroll Date: 05 Jan 18 - 04:35 AM "I prefer This One, Jim." Same song Steve Religion is an attempt by manking to explain what they see around them and is probably as old as mankind itself Organised religion is when different sections of mankind began to squabble about it The church is when somebody decided there was a profit and a career in it so they marketed and adapted it to suit their ambitions - privatised belief, to put it in modern language. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story From: Mr Red Date: 05 Jan 18 - 04:07 AM Sorry lads - you fellers really need to separate religion from how it is used and abused As I said. But we have to be objective. There is no doubt that human cultures, and by inference**, human physiology evolved through the forming of tribes, and allegiances. And religions, howsoever described, were central to that. Think Stonehenge and pyramids. Without religion you would have to coerce the masses to comply with more food, more riches, or more lashing. We may have forgotten how to sculpt stone in 2 ton lumps so flat they need no mortar, but we have diamond saws now. And we still marvel at sculptors' efforts. There is still a place for religion, but not everywhere, nor for everyone. Mr Red (devout Atheist). ** retain the context before you spout. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story From: Joe Offer Date: 05 Jan 18 - 12:06 AM Jim Carroll says: I have not need for either, but I have a great warmth for the real Christians' who accept it as a guide for life rather than a meaningless dogma I can agree with that. Religion is something practiced by both good and bad people. The good people use it for good, and the others don't. I despise those who use religion for ill, just as much as any of you do. Maybe moreso, because they give the rest of us believers such a bad name. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story From: Donuel Date: 04 Jan 18 - 09:32 PM Senefou I noticed we had the same vigilant conclusion but in different threads. I wonder how many of us have wished for equal justice in these filthy old stories. It doesn't have to be an eye for eye, it doesn't have to be any more cruel or unusual a punishment than the crime. It just has to be applied equally without a single get out of jail card for the pious or rich or anyone. I hate that some guilty are excused by privilege or entitlement. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story From: Greg F. Date: 04 Jan 18 - 08:20 PM I prefer This One, Jim. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story From: Steve Shaw Date: 04 Jan 18 - 07:44 PM Come on, Jim, sing Woody's songs! I knew which one it was going to be before I even clicked. Taking the message of Jesus as a guide for living is fine, it can't be gainsaid. But a good life can equally well be lived without it, or even in spite of it. I can ride my bike without stabilisers and I can walk with head held high without crutches. Christianity has us all as wretches who must be saved. Well I'll manage without being saved if it's all right with y'all! See you down there with all those priests and popes and Mother Teresa! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story From: Jim Carroll Date: 04 Jan 18 - 07:33 PM "Absolutely! As proof, I give you Roy Moore & Donald Trump." Sorry lads - ou fellers really need to separate religion from how it is used and abused I have not need for either, but I have a great warmth for the real Christians' who accept it as a guide for life rather than a meaningless dogma Two songs that have followed me through my life were This one of Woodie's and THIS by Ewan (just spotted my photograph on this clip - whee!!) After fid=fty years I still get an enormous buzz out of singing Ewan's, especially to locals here - I'd sing Woodie's if I sang American songs The greatest betrayal of all the events has been of true believers - that is shown by the numbers now leaving the church Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story From: Steve Shaw Date: 04 Jan 18 - 07:08 PM Religion has never been a force for good. Let's not dwell on persecutions visited on one religious group by another down the millennia, on bigotry, on institutional antisemitism by the Catholic Church down the centuries, on papal misrule and corruption in the Renaissance, on acquiescence in the Holocaust, on institutionalised sexual exploitation of children, on the Christian Brothers, on the Magdalen Laundries, on Mother Teresa's vile exploitation of the poorest and most vulnerable... Yes, religions teach (but do not necessarily practise) morality. I'm a critical friend of the committee known as Jesus myself. But there's a rather wicked assumption, in the face of all this, underlying the assertion that religion is a force for good. It's that we wouldn't be good unless we had religion to make us good. That is religion's biggest arrogance and its biggest conceit, and it simply isn't true. In microcosm apropos of that, I went to the funeral of a close relative years ago. The service was religious because the rest of his family was religious. The presiding vicar declared that he'd been such a good, upstanding man because of his Christian upbringing. We knew better. He certainly was a very fine, upstanding man, one of the best I've ever known and who we all revered for his kindness, generosity, good humour and sense of justice. But the only time he'd been near a church in fifty years was when he was dragged, kicking and screaming almost, to weddings and funerals. Like I said, microcosm. Revealing nonetheless. It's impossible to argue that we'd be better off without religion because we never get a chance to try it. But it is possible to argue that the glorious reality of the world is a damn sight more magical that the abject hocus-pocus peddled by religion's control freaks. Not going to go down well, this, is it... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story From: Greg F. Date: 04 Jan 18 - 06:31 PM Religion is a force for good, Absolutely! As proof, I give you Roy Moore & Donald Trump. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story From: Mr Red Date: 04 Jan 18 - 12:07 PM Not just Catholics. When I mention the Mennonites to a Canadian friend, he wrinkles his nose and sighs, murmuring "child abuse". Religion is a force for good, when it is good. But, sadly, it is administered by humans. That is it's weakness. Now if God were properly in charge - she would set it right! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story From: Jim Carroll Date: 04 Jan 18 - 10:51 AM "Of course, that's not what the Jesuits mean." That is how it is taken and basically, that's the way it is - or was, till thee chi rape scandal undermined the power of the church "But yet, Raggytash and Jim Carroll and Steve Shaw continue to pour shame on Catholics" Please to not stoop to untruths Joe - these are criticisms of the behaviour of the Church - it has nothing whatever to do with "Catholics" or even their beliefs If it had , Id be throwing stones though most of my relatives and neighbours windows. Are you really seeking "understanding and tolerance" for the way these people behaved given the way many churchmen are still behaving towards the victim of these crimes? Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story From: Dave the Gnome Date: 04 Jan 18 - 10:37 AM I think we must agree to disagree on that then, Joe. Those who ignore the past are destined to repeat it in my opinion. DtG |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story From: Joe Offer Date: 04 Jan 18 - 10:33 AM I don't think so, And the fact of the matter is that physical and sexual child abuse happens everywhere, all the time. Placing emphasis on events that happened 30 years ago, tends to help us forget That which is happening right now. We all know child abusers, and most of those abusers are not members of the clergy. Child abuse is a horrible problem, And we must come to an understanding of it. This constant shaming of others, only serves to hide the blame that we all must bear. Joe |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story From: Jack Campin Date: 04 Jan 18 - 09:51 AM Why don't you start threads shaming some of the groups you identify with? Surely, there must be some skeletons in your closet, too That kind of rhetorical stunt is called "what-about-ery" in Northern Ireland (which saw quite a lot of it in the period when paramilitaries were exchanging atrocities). It's a disgusting abuse of the human capacity for moral reasoning. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story From: Dave the Gnome Date: 04 Jan 18 - 08:51 AM Must we be burdened by them forevermore? Isn't there a point where outside people recognize that the organization has been brought down and has paid the price, and now it's time to go on? No, I don't think so, Joe. It has to be a forevermore thing to help prevent it happening again. Sins of a far greater scale were performed by the Nazis (queue Godwins law...) so the world must be reminded of that constantly lest it happen again. Yet we are still seeing an upsurge of national socialism here in the UK, in Europe and in the USA. If we drop the reminders of what happened in the past people will forget and it will happen all over again. In my opinion that is. DtG |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story From: Joe Offer Date: 03 Jan 18 - 09:31 PM Steve Shaw says: If your Church is really following the teachings of Christ, then it would go through hell and high water to stop the abuse, and punish the abusers, right here and right now. Well, I think the bishops ARE taking strong and immediate action to stop the abuse and punish the abuses; and also to offer treatment and compensation and apology to victims. However, I think they're doing it mostly because of fear of further lawsuits and claims, and not because they are following the teachings of Christ. But my complaint about the proliferation of these threads still stands. I think that every Catholic bears the burden of shame for this scandal, and I think they know it. There's no doubt in my mind that the Catholic Church has been humbled, and rightfully so - and whatever it does in the future, it must do with humility. But what then? How do we deal with the sins of the past? Must we be burdened by them forevermore? Isn't there a point where outside people recognize that the organization has been brought down and has paid the price, and now it's time to go on? In these endless discussions, Mudcatter have hurled everything in their barrage of blame, back to the 15th century Inquisition and before, and they have continued this onslaught for almost 20 years in threads that appear at least once a month. What is the constructive effect of such a flood of shaming? As a Catholic, I bear the shame of all the wrongdoing of my Catholic Church, and there is something right in my having to acknowledge that shame. As an American, I bear the shame for another long list of misdeeds by my country - and I think that it's right that I bear that blame, too. But where does it go from there? How does this whole puzzle of blame fit together. And from that humbled position of shame, how do we go forward? All of us humans have shame to bear. How do we deal with it? And perhaps more importantly, how do we deal with the shame that others have to bear - attack them for it? -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story From: Steve Shaw Date: 03 Jan 18 - 08:10 PM Rotten first post, Joe, very decent second one. The first of the two is rotten because it is so needlessly defensive. The second is grand because it confirms that you are among the true followers of the word of Jesus in that you are shouting out loud against wrongdoing and injustice. I said that the dilatory and reluctant nature of the response of the Church to sex abuse was not only very damaging in an ongoing way to present victims of that abuse but was also what makes the reparations, in that they exist, so drawn out and so hard for us to digest. If your Church is really following the teachings of Christ, then it would go through hell and high water to stop the abuse, and punish the abusers, right here and right now. That's what the teachings of Jesus (don't push me...!) indicate to me. My understanding of them is nowhere near as nuanced as yours, but I do recall something about doing right by the least of the people and by little children. Misused positions of power in order to carry out abuse seems to me to be the polar opposite of that. I kinda like Jesus, mostly, even though he was probably a committee... And he's my Jesus, just as much as he's yours! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story From: Joe Offer Date: 03 Jan 18 - 07:10 PM Steve Shaw says:
And yes, the Catholic Church will forever bear the shame of what happened in this terrible scandal. The powerful Catholic Church has been humbled, and I think that is a good thing. But when does it come to a point where the shaming from outside sources is too much? When do we get to the point where we humbly can go on with life and deal with all of the other pressing issues, like immigration and homelessness and racism and sexism and such? Despite its past offenses, the Catholic Church has also been a powerful voice in defense of refugees and the poor and oppressed. When can we be allowed to stop wallowing in shame and take steps to advocate for those in need? -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story From: Joe Offer Date: 03 Jan 18 - 06:54 PM Well, no, I didn't really expect to achieve any understanding or tolerance. So, Raggytash, when was the last time you went to church, if you claim to be associated with the Catholic Church? If you are a Catholic, then step forward and apologize and do penance and pay reparations for the misdeeds of your priests and bishops. I have never once heard a word of apology from you, and I highly doubt that you are paying anything toward the huge amount of reparations that are being paid to the victims of these crimes. And what's so wrong with my saying that young Catholic priests seem to have a preference for teenage girls? At least in my diocese, the two young priests who went to prison recently were convicted of having sex with teenage girls. That seems to be a trend in many dioceses, for a number of reasons. Raggytash, listen to me: I make no excuses for the sexual misconduct that went on in the Catholic Church and that continues to happen to a lesser extent - never in my life have I excused or denied it, although I do seek to understand it so I can help find a way to prevent it. But somehow, it seems to be that there comes a point when the frequency of your oh-so-righteous shaming of Catholics becomes an act of bigotry. I think you passed that point long ago, and your obsession has become just plain bigotry. This Soper thing is not the first time you have reported offending priests multiple times, each time as if it were something new. You are obsessed, my friend. Why is that? -Joe Offer- And Steve Shaw, the Jesuit professors I have known, have always taught myth as myth, often much to the chagrin of many who think otherwise. The Jesuit philosophy of education has always been quite different from that of the Salesians, although I will admit that even the Jesuits have a fundamentalist wing. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story From: Steve Shaw Date: 03 Jan 18 - 06:35 PM By the way, Joe, while I take pleasure (frequently to your irritation, as we know) in pointing to the absurdities of all religions in general, no matter of what colour, I take no pleasure whatsoever in the self-inflicted plight of the Catholic Church over the long-running sex abuse scandals. You can check all my postings going back years on that. The decent thing is, not least for the sake of past, present and, hopefully not, future victims, to want this cleared up in a rapid, open, honest and contrite manner. I come from a solid Catholic family and my dad has been going to Sunday Mass for so many decades (over sixty to be precise!) at the same church that no-one would even begin to dare to sit in his spot in the pew. Heaven forfend. I still get on with him. I've always defended the right of anyone to believe what the dickens they like, as long as they don't try to force their beliefs on anyone else (especially children - credit me with consistency on that score if nothing else). I was educated at Catholic schools from four 'til eighteen, and you can see from my demeanour here what a fine, upstanding and morally-sound citizen it turned me into. So no black and white from me! Er... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story From: Steve Shaw Date: 03 Jan 18 - 05:46 PM Well, Joe, the Catholic Church is a constant target for very good reason, whether you like it or not. A very common attempted getout on Mudcat is to try to dilute the accusations by bringing in all those other miscreants the world over. No-one denies it, Joe. Start threads on it if you like. You'll get takers. For better or worse, we tend to react to what happens to be topical, what's in the news. If the Catholic Church doesn't like being in the news all the time for all the wrong reasons, well the matter is entirely in its own hands. But because of the reluctant, shifty and dilatory nature of its responses so far, it'll take a lot longer than it should have taken to clear things up. That is not our fault. I'm sure that those excellent Jesuit teachers taught critical thinking in geography, history, English and maths lessons. But over in those religious instruction lessons they taught you to accept, under pain of sin (not to speak of under a crucifix on the wall) mythology as truth. My teachers were the Salesians, who I believe were a little less stern than the Jesuits, and they certainly sowed that brand of confused messages. Been there, Joe. If you think I'm speaking out of date, let's hear you telling your supporter Iains that he's also out of date. "I was taught by Jesuits and it didn't do me no 'arm..." Yeah, right... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story From: Dave the Gnome Date: 03 Jan 18 - 05:30 PM You only need to look at the abuse Iains inflicts on everyone to know that the Jesuits teach scorn for anyone that disagrees with them. Unless of course he is either not a typical product of a Jesuit education else he is not one at all. DtG |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story From: Raggytash Date: 03 Jan 18 - 05:08 PM Firstly Joe your statement "And many of you pour similar shame on Jews for the offenses of the government of Israel" is a downright lie. Full stop. Secondly you state " Why don't you start threads shaming some of the groups you identify with? Surely, there must be some skeletons in your closet, too" I was brought up as a catholic, by a staunch catholic Mother and attended catholic schools all the way through my infant, junior and senior schools. You have the audacity to tell me me I don't associate with this group ! In a previous post you had the temerity to say that "The offenses are not new, and present no evidence of ongoing misconduct" and that in recent years "They seem to have a weakness for teenage girls" Is it any wonder, people like myself castigate the various religions when they are so proudly supported by people like yourself. I have no desire to fall out with you personally but your continued excuses for the catholic church, in particular, cuts no ice with me and I would suggest several others. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story From: Joe Offer Date: 03 Jan 18 - 04:35 PM Once again, Jim Carroll says:
"Give me a child until he is seven and I will give you the man" Of course, that's not what the Jesuits mean. That's how Jim Carroll twists their meaning to fit his own prejudices. The Jesuits have always had high standards for education, standards that have always emphasized the priority of critical thinking. They have often been in trouble with church authorities through the centuries for their emphasis on critical thinking and excellence in education and on respect for indigenous cultures. They were suppressed by various European monarchs through the 18th century, and by the Pope from 1773-1815. And now we have a Jesuit Pope, and many right-wing Catholics are not happy with that at all. On occasion, I have found fault with the Jesuits for their frequent alliances with the elite and the wealthy and the powerful. But for the most part, Jesuit education has always been excellent and has emphasized intellectual freedom. And in the last half-century, the Jesuits have far more often been allied with the poor and oppressed. -Joe Offer- |
