BS: Football (not the U.S. kind)

Subject: RE: BS: Football (not the U.S. kind)
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 20 Jul 18 - 09:01 AM

That is indeed a bit extreme, firstly what is your concept of "we". I didn't take part, and I suspect neither did you. I don't feel ownership of a team just because it happens to have the same nationality as me. Secondly, and accepting that by "we" you mean the England football team, getting to the semi-final of a major competition is hardly being humiliated. Its just not quite being the best.

Subject: RE: BS: Football (not the U.S. kind)
From: gillymor
Date: 20 Jul 18 - 08:12 AM

Keith sounds more like an official from the Ministry of Propaganda than an actual soccer fan.

Subject: RE: BS: Football (not the U.S. kind)
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Jul 18 - 07:56 AM

I didn't feel humiliated...


but then, I'm neither a nationalist or a worshipper...

Subject: RE: BS: Football (not the U.S. kind)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jul 18 - 04:39 AM

So unless our league clubs change their ways we will continue to be humiliated in all future international competitions, because there is no serious money to be made from them.

Subject: RE: BS: Football (not the U.S. kind)
From: MikeL2
Date: 18 Jul 18 - 02:54 PM

Hi Keith

There is no doubt that English clubs higher wages than almost all foreign clubs.

I was surprised to see only this week that Barcelona do not pay top money.



Foreign players flocked to England so much that in 2005 Arsenal played a full team of foreign players. More recently Chelsea have played 8 players.

Belgium have invested huge sums of money into sport. The result is that Belgium are progressing to be one of the leading sporting Countries.

Cheers

Mike

Subject: RE: BS: Football (not the U.S. kind)
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 18 Jul 18 - 02:15 PM

English clubs cannot train English kids to the level that they can train foreign kids. By the time they get to the clubs, the damage has been done.

Subject: RE: BS: Football (not the U.S. kind)
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 18 Jul 18 - 02:09 PM

Keith, I don't think that is true. At the time of John Charles and Denis Law, and even at the time of David Platt and others, I don't think there were many foreign players in the British leagues. Chinaglia doesn't count, he grew up in Wales. Can you think of any from the 60s and early 70s.

Money is the key. Charles and Law were paid more in Italy than they would have been in England, Wales or Scotland. Now its the other way round.

Subject: RE: BS: Football (not the U.S. kind)
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Jul 18 - 01:22 PM

... oh.. and as this is folk trad mudcat... Bog snorkelling and Ferret-legging...

Though unfortunately they don't seem to get much TV coverage......

Subject: RE: BS: Football (not the U.S. kind)
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Jul 18 - 12:02 PM

Because England has become crapper at football since 1992,
for reasons already pointed out to you more than once in this thread...

Profiteering global capitalism has taken over and destroyed traditional regional English community football culture,
that once thrived on nurturing young local loyal players...

Solution - follow rugby [until it also goes completely the way of bland corporate football]
and sumo wrestling instead...

Subject: RE: BS: Football (not the U.S. kind)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Jul 18 - 12:00 PM

I see that English league players are paid more as you said Mike.

Subject: RE: BS: Football (not the U.S. kind)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Jul 18 - 11:41 AM

Mike, why are only a third of English league players English, and why are half the Belgium squad English club players.

we should remember that Many British players played abroad

Not many compared to the reverse flow.
It may not be a wholly one way traffic, but almost.

English players earn very high wages compared with most Foreign leagues.

That applies to bought in players too, plus the transfer fee.
Do other European leagues pay significantly less?

Why do only English clubs seek to profit from selling players?
Why does England produce so few elite players from its large population?
Why do English clubs prefer to buy in players than train English kids?

Subject: RE: BS: Football (not the U.S. kind)
From: MikeL2
Date: 18 Jul 18 - 09:41 AM

Hi

How did I miss John Charles a giant in every way. And Denis law? ( as a Man United fan ). Denis lived very close to us when he played for United.

I think looking at the names that in those days Italy was the most favourite with The Traveling People".
cheers

Subject: RE: BS: Football (not the U.S. kind)
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Jul 18 - 07:52 AM

But if most of them played in the 1st division before 1992,
then that supports the proposition that Sky Sports and the Premier League are the major factors
in the effing up of the development of young English talent...

Subject: RE: BS: Football (not the U.S. kind)
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 18 Jul 18 - 07:16 AM

And going back a bit further John Charles and Denis Law.

John Aldridge and the late Dalian Atkinson went to Real Sociedad. I remember when I lived in Spain watching on TV the two of them absolutely destroy one of the top teams, either Barcelona or one of the Madrid teams.

Subject: RE: BS: Football (not the U.S. kind)
From: MikeL2
Date: 18 Jul 18 - 06:38 AM

hi

With all this talk of foreign players over here we should remember that Many British players played abroad. -: Kevin Keegan Rodney Marsh Laurie Cunningham, David Platt Trevor francis Graham Souness John Barnes Paul Ince Ray Wilkins Ian Rush ( was returned back to Liverpool Post haste ) Glenn Hoddle Chris Waddle Gary Linacre David Beckham Johnathon Woodgate Mark Hughes Les Ferdinand and we mustn't forget Gazza.

This lot is not the only ones by but probably the best known ones.

Interesting isn't that today while there are some British players move abroad but not many except that those who go at the end of their career to USA or China.

Cheers

Mike

Subject: RE: BS: Football (not the U.S. kind)
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 05:30 PM

Mike, I think you make a very good point about the wages. Wages in the EPL are obscene. And English players, and indeed others such as Belgian players, either see these wages as an indicator of the quality of the league (which they are not), or else are just plain greedy. I guess Bale could have earned more if he had gone to Man City. But he wanted to play, train and compete with the best. Kane I would think is a level down, and would struggle to get game time at Real Madrid, Barcelona, Juventus or PSG. The one England player who could definitely command a transfer to a top league is Pickford.

Subject: RE: BS: Football (not the U.S. kind)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 04:57 PM

Steve, I hope you are getting all your information from mainstream football pundits who's views are accepted by their peers and have their books for sale in high street book stores.

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Football (not the U.S. kind)
From: MikeL2
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 02:53 PM

hi

" If Kane is as good as he tells everybody that he is, why is he not pushing for a move to a top Spanish, French or Italian club? "

A number of foreign clubs have registered interest in Harry.

This was before the World Cup started. I guess after a very ordinary performance the clubs may move on.

One thing you must consider is that English players earn very high wages compared with most Foreign leagues. They can get better players cheaper. They also prefer to sell players that wish to leave to bring in huge transfer fees.

Cheers   Mike

Subject: RE: BS: Football (not the U.S. kind)
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 07:48 AM

Murdoch and the Premier League...

Working class traditional sports culture became vastly over priced global corporate consumer product...

Subject: RE: BS: Football (not the U.S. kind)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 06:12 AM

Our best English player is not good enough, so we should buy all our players in and not train any English kids at all.
Even just a third of English club players being English is too many.
How did this come about?

Subject: RE: BS: Football (not the U.S. kind)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 04:42 AM

I've gleaned that the expression "world-class player" has become flavour of the month during the World Cup. Funny that. As I've watched the matches I've seen that the most successful teams have actually played as teams and that their alleged world-class players have set their egos aside. I've heard it said several times that England have just the one world-class player. Well he got the Golden Boot (by dint of three penalties, two tap-ins and one deflection that he knew nothing about), but the way he played, especially in the knock-outs, revealed him to be a world-class let-down. I think we should give him the golden handshake.

Subject: RE: BS: Football (not the U.S. kind)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jul 18 - 04:32 AM

why is he not pushing for a move to a top Spanish, French or Italian club?

Because they do not think he is good enough so do not put a price on him.

you don't hear of English, or indeed Scottish players agitating for a move to a top European club.

You don't hear of offers being rejected.
English clubs are failing to train world class players and buy them off the shelf instead.

Subject: RE: BS: Football (not the U.S. kind)
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 16 Jul 18 - 05:56 PM

I don't know whether they are Keith. But you don't hear of English, or indeed Scottish players agitating for a move to a top European club. A Welsh one did, and has done rather well. If, to name but one, Harry Kane is as good as he tells everybody that he is, why is he not pushing for a move to a top Spanish, French or Italian club?

Subject: RE: BS: Football (not the U.S. kind)
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Jul 18 - 09:36 AM

Hazy memories, but when I was little my dad told me some footballers were earning as much as pop stars - a hundred quid a week...!!!!

[it might even have been 50 quid.. which would still have impressed my old dad on his factory machinist wage...]

Subject: RE: BS: Football (not the U.S. kind)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Jul 18 - 09:23 AM

I remember when Burnley won the First Division in 1960 with a team that cost £9000. The runners-up, Wolves, cost half a million. Only two of the Burnley first team cost any money, the great Jimmy Mac, the finest inside-right ever to grace a football pitch, accounting for £7000 of the dough, and nine of the team had been recruited by what was then the finest scouting system in the country. Mind you, the players were treated like minions and were forced to have formal dinner with Bob Lord after each match... Most players would have to get other jobs, such as running sports shops, after they retired, which could happen unexpectedly early due to injury or just being dropped, and a good few ex-household names were soon on their uppers.

Subject: RE: BS: Football (not the U.S. kind)
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Jul 18 - 09:05 AM

Keith - we are actually in agreement this time,
I gave you a link to my much earlier post in this thread expressing my opinion...

I'm by no means a nationalist, but English premier football is too dominated by foreign money...

Personally, I wouldn't care if football disappeared forever along with all religions...

But there's still a slight remnant of that schoolboy in me
who grew up in a golden age culture of 1960s English 1st Division football...

Before Corporate Global profiteering / Sky Sports ruined the game...

Subject: RE: BS: Football (not the U.S. kind)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jul 18 - 08:19 AM

Yes PFR, but why are England's elite only run of the mill at best in Europe?
It can only be that boys with elite potential are being identified in other countries but not ours, otherwise why are there so many from Belgium (pop 12m) and so few from England (pop 55m).

Subject: RE: BS: Football (not the U.S. kind)
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Jul 18 - 08:10 AM

Keith - you missed the point...

The indigenous elite English players who are prominent in the premier league
are fairly important here.
In Europe they would be run of the mill at best...

My mrs would remind you that even tiny Wales has produced a better world class player, Gareth Bale...

Subject: RE: BS: Football (not the U.S. kind)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jul 18 - 04:37 AM

David,
So there is also a lack of ambition, or alternatively a parochialism, amongst young British footballers.

Is it true that English players are turning down offers from abroad, or are they just not good enough to be wanted?

PFR,
big fish small pond syndrome...???

Hardly. The English league id dominated by foreign players. Two thirds! The English players are the small fish in this pond.

I suspect that David is right about the English clubs not identifying skilled young players.They are being failed by the system and England is doomed to perpetual humiliation in internationals because of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Football (not the U.S. kind)
From: olddude
Date: 15 Jul 18 - 08:19 PM

Agree with you steve they need work if they want to win it all. The competition this year was superb by all the teams. France deserve it as those goals were amazing

Subject: RE: BS: Football (not the U.S. kind)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jul 18 - 03:45 PM

Credit to both teams for providing a spectacle worthy of a World Cup final. Tell you what, though: the English team couldn't hold a candle to either of those two teams. We have a long way to go, and we haven't even got a decent striker!

Subject: RE: BS: Football (not the U.S. kind)
From: robomatic
Date: 15 Jul 18 - 03:16 PM

Just watched the final game which was broadcast locally, free, on the FOX network station. Didn't understand it 100%, particularly why that French player was running the ball towards his own goal line just before the Croations made their second goal. Was he trying to get it to his goalie to kick it?

Looked to me like the Croations had wonderful teamwork, they seemed to kick the ball where they needed it to go and find a team-mate. The French had power and great capacity to get the ball from their opponents but too often it went where they weren't.

Might be the first game of soccer I've seen through to the end.

Subject: RE: BS: Football (not the U.S. kind)
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Jul 18 - 02:46 PM

England - "awww.. let's have a look.. go on.. we're next door neighbours.. let's have a look and a quick hold of the cup..."

France - "Non !!!.. Va te faire foutre brexit bâtards !!!!!.."

Subject: RE: BS: Football (not the U.S. kind)
From: keberoxu
Date: 15 Jul 18 - 02:23 PM

And in four years' time,
there will be a new Mudcat BS thread on the next World Cup.

In my part of the country,
the work-migration patterns have brought an entire generation,
maybe better, of Brazilians.
They go absolutely nuts every four years.
You have to resign yourself, when you visit restaurants where they work, to the screaming, hollering, and jumping around
if there is a World Cup match underway while you wait for the meal you ordered.
If it's the sort of establishment that has a television screen or four,
then you have that distraction as well.
Not to speak of bars or pubs.

Subject: RE: BS: Football (not the U.S. kind)
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 15 Jul 18 - 02:13 PM

Appallingly soft penalty at the end of the first half, but to be fair the French third and fourth goals were superbly taken. Excellent display from both teams.

Subject: RE: BS: Football (not the U.S. kind)
From: olddude
Date: 15 Jul 18 - 12:23 PM

Ugh Croatia goalie leaks like a broken sink

Subject: RE: BS: Football (not the U.S. kind)
From: olddude
Date: 15 Jul 18 - 11:34 AM

Great game so far wow I hope cro takes it

Subject: RE: BS: Football (not the U.S. kind)
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Jul 18 - 11:14 AM

big fish small pond syndrome...???

Subject: RE: BS: Football (not the U.S. kind)
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 15 Jul 18 - 10:39 AM

I have given my answer to this above, in my view its because of coaching methods in the junior game (ages 8 to about 14), where in England a premium is placed on size and strength, rather than on skill.

There is another issue to, we have seen in the England team for the world cup a number of players who could hold their own in La Liga or Serie A. But they don't go. Why? Since Beckham and Owen I can't think of an English player who is still a force at international level signing for an overseas club. Even those two were at the fag end of their careers. So there is also a lack of ambition, or alternatively a parochialism, amongst young British footballers.

Subject: RE: BS: Football (not the U.S. kind)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jul 18 - 08:13 AM

The question Keith, is why are so few English players playing for top club sides elsewhere in Europe.

That is the same question. Why are so few English kids getting to that standard where foreign or even English clubs want them?

Subject: RE: BS: Football (not the U.S. kind)
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 15 Jul 18 - 03:18 AM

Belgium played well. Particularly in the first half, but their counterattacks in the second half were superbly timed. Pickford made a great save to deny what would have been the best goal of the tournament. Only disappointment really was Lukaku, who, having been superb against Brazil has had two poor games.

Apart from Pickford, who has been England's best player of the tournament by a mile, the only England player worthy of mention was Loftus-Cheek. Kane has been dire since the Panama game.

Subject: RE: BS: Football (not the U.S. kind)
From: keberoxu
Date: 14 Jul 18 - 08:41 PM

nobody wants to talk about that third-place game ...

Subject: RE: BS: Football (not the U.S. kind)
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 14 Jul 18 - 04:42 PM

The question Keith, is why are so few English players playing for top club sides elsewhere in Europe.

Subject: RE: BS: Football (not the U.S. kind)
From: gillymor
Date: 14 Jul 18 - 01:38 PM

So England will be 3rd or 4th, sounds like a pretty good outcome to me.

It seems a bit unfair that France gets an extra day's rest, especially considering all the extra minutes played by Croatia. Perhaps they should have held both semis on the same day.

Subject: RE: BS: Football (not the U.S. kind)
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 Jul 18 - 01:35 PM

Keith - look back to my post

"From: punkfolkrocker - PM
Date: 05 Jul 18 - 03:14 PM "


I was 7 years old, and still had a schoolboy's excitement in the game,
when we were all swept up enjoying the euphoria of winning the world cup...

Now I can't even remember watching it on the telly.....

Subject: RE: BS: Football (not the U.S. kind)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Jul 18 - 01:24 PM

Just 4th then, but why?
Why are so many of our best club players playing for other national teams against us? Is that true of other countries to the same extent?

The Belgian Captain and 12 of his 26 players play for English clubs.
The population of Belgium is less than 12m!

Subject: RE: BS: Football (not the U.S. kind)
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 Jul 18 - 12:43 PM

Keith - yes, we could still be third - 4 years from now...

..and by 2022, genetic scientists might also have successfully grown fully functioning wings on pigs...

Subject: RE: BS: Football (not the U.S. kind)
From: keberoxu
Date: 14 Jul 18 - 12:17 PM

And here come the final World Cup games.

Subject: RE: BS: Football (not the U.S. kind)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 12:22 PM

We could still be third.

Subject: RE: BS: Football (not the U.S. kind)
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 12:16 PM

What an achievement for the nation to celebrate - when was the last time the England team came 4th in the world cup...???