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BS: Football (not the U.S. kind)

Nigel Parsons 11 Jan 18 - 05:02 AM
Mr Red 11 Jan 18 - 04:47 AM
Dave the Gnome 11 Jan 18 - 04:45 AM
Nigel Parsons 11 Jan 18 - 03:22 AM
Joe Offer 10 Jan 18 - 11:57 PM
Dave the Gnome 10 Jan 18 - 04:03 PM
Raggytash 10 Jan 18 - 04:02 PM
Steve Shaw 10 Jan 18 - 03:42 PM
punkfolkrocker 10 Jan 18 - 03:40 PM
Steve Shaw 10 Jan 18 - 03:33 PM
The Sandman 10 Jan 18 - 03:12 PM
MikeL2 10 Jan 18 - 03:08 PM
Steve Shaw 10 Jan 18 - 01:58 PM
punkfolkrocker 10 Jan 18 - 01:07 PM
Senoufou 10 Jan 18 - 12:49 PM
Mr Red 10 Jan 18 - 11:31 AM
punkfolkrocker 10 Jan 18 - 11:19 AM
Nigel Parsons 10 Jan 18 - 10:56 AM
Dave the Gnome 10 Jan 18 - 10:08 AM
Raggytash 10 Jan 18 - 10:05 AM
Steve Shaw 10 Jan 18 - 09:42 AM
punkfolkrocker 10 Jan 18 - 07:10 AM
Raggytash 10 Jan 18 - 06:44 AM

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Subject: RE: BS: Football (not the U.S. kind)
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 05:02 AM

At least according to Huffpost it seems the use of the word 'soccer' has only declined in UK usage since the 1980s.
I certainly remember a time when the games were either soccer or rugby. 'Football' tended to encompass several games, including bank holiday mini-riots where an inflated bladder of some description might be found.


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Subject: RE: BS: Football (not the U.S. kind)
From: Mr Red
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 04:47 AM

Consider your position!

Not near a football stadium, especially on a Saturday. That's my position.

Football is a minority interest in the UK (and the world) or another (alt fact) way of putting it is the biggest minority - it isn't, fishing is.

The problems are

1) Politicians are shit scared of pointing to the dangers
2) until there is a disaster
3) politicians can't blame the fans in spite of a clear audit trail of their contribution to any disaster.
4) when there are deaths, all fans become victims, regardless of culpability

This could be true of other genres but not to the degree. Why is rugby, by and large, devoid of the problems? Is it crowd volume? Is it the nature of the game that sees more violence on the pitch? Is it the image of being a gentleman's game? Is it that there is less money involved? Seen as a "Northern" game? Less countries participating?

Time was, I was told by those who were there, that before WW2 children were taken to see football. And rowdy behaviour was policed by the crowds' collective admonishment to individuals. We may be returning to those days, but are we there yet? I still see evidence to the contrary. And have the days of the Glasgie wet leg** gone? I somehow doubt it.

Society has been moving towards the ME generation as each generation passes. Large crowds are dangerous. Moreso when populated by the ME generation. Or two nations are competing.

I should ask - what are the Americans doing that would appear to work in Baseball? I know Canadian Ice Hockey had an atrocious reputation at one time. What did the governing bodies do to address that?

**think splashes from someone urinating on the terraces instead of finding the toilet.


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Subject: RE: BS: Football (not the U.S. kind)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 04:45 AM

I a pretty sure the vast majority of people in the UK understand that Football is the association kind while Rugby is referred to as Rugby which, if we are being pedantic about it, can be league or union. As this is standard usage across all the media in he UK it is a bit daft to refer to it as anything other than football here.

The US is a different case. The term football has become common usage for the game they play there and, as a relative newcomer, 'soccer' has had to take on an alternate name.

Joe - We don't have cheerleaders. There is no need for such distractions in the games played here :-) What we do have, to add a further much misused term, is Morris dance troupes which have nothing to do with Morris dance as in the folk tradition but are groups of, usually, young ladies performing a set march/dance routine which sometimes has elements of what I have seen as cheerleading. This is done as a competitive sport in it's own right.

Confused? You will be...

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Football (not the U.S. kind)
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 03:22 AM

From: Raggytash
Date: 10 Jan 18 - 04:02 PM
To the Mod who changed the thread title.
In Europe, and the UK in particular we play FOOTBALL.


I think what you mean is that this discussion is about "Association Football" (often shortened to either 'soccer' or 'football')
'Football' can be either Rugby Football, or Association Football.

In the US they appear to play either soccer, or a version similar to rugby football.


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Subject: RE: BS: Football (not the U.S. kind)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Jan 18 - 11:57 PM

I thought long and hard about what I should put to clarify the title. I hope it isn't too unacceptable. I think I'd agree with the consensus about the comparative quality of the two games, but I'd prefer to watch neither one. I did enjoy playing soccer, though.

So, do you have cheerleaders over there?

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Football (not the U.S. kind)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Jan 18 - 04:03 PM

I lived in Swinton for 50 years, Mike, and then only moved as far as Irlams o'th' Heights but only every sent to see them play once. At th' Heights I was half an hours walk to the Willows but never went to see Salford at all! Now I live in Yorkshire and will probably never go to see Leeds or Bradford.

I did play league at school though so at least I know What is going on. Unlike Union where I have no idea:-(

I must make an effort one day:-)

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Football (not the U.S. kind)
From: Raggytash
Date: 10 Jan 18 - 04:02 PM

To the Mod who changed the thread title.

In Europe, and the UK in particular we play FOOTBALL.

In the USA you have FORMATION MUGGING.

There is absolutely no comparison between the two codes I don't know how you have the audacity to call your travesty of the format a game, never mind football.

For a start in your version the ball is very rarely kicked for crying out loud !!


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Subject: RE: BS: Football (not the U.S. kind)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jan 18 - 03:42 PM

Correct me if I'm wrong, Mike, but I think my Grandad, who worked all his life in Salford docks and knew every pub in Salford, a lifelong Irish Catholic (my mum was born in Silk Street and went to Our Lady Of Grace) supported Manchester United because they were always seen to be a "Catholic club" managed by Matt Busby, a Catholic right down to his boots. Mind you, in those days United were worth supporting, what with Denis Law, Bobby Charlton, Georgie Best, Harry Gregg and, before that, the Babes. I went to Italy on a school trip in 1968 and the locals around Naples were mad about Bobby Charlton!

But Burnley had Jimmy Mac, and Liverpool were on the up...


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Subject: RE: BS: Football (not the U.S. kind)
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Jan 18 - 03:40 PM

Don't mock... I'm being serious...

I forgot to mention that over the last year or so,
me and the wife have followed the 2 monthly Sumo Wresting tournements on NHK News HD channel [Sky 507]

Fought over 15 days, with a daily half hour English Language highlights show...


Fascinating, and quite exciting at times...

Next tournament starts from this Sunday Jan 14...


https://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/en/tv/sumo/


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Subject: RE: BS: Football (not the U.S. kind)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jan 18 - 03:33 PM

Ahah, I see someone has expanded the title. You yanks have my sympathies. I've tried to watch American football a couple of times. This is what I've gleaned so far:

A lot of extremely-padded men stand around for several minutes.

Some kind of signal obliges them to stand in two lines.

One man throws an oddly-shaped ball along the lines.

Everybody spends the next thirty seconds trying to beat everyone else up.

After a short period of dusting-down, the process is repeated.

In the meantime, a bunch of very beautiful girls with frilly skirts right up to their delectable bottoms jump up and down on the touchline in gleeful and noisy fashion. This is, to my unrefined eye, by far the most appealing part of the game.

Am I missing something?


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Subject: RE: BS: Football (not the U.S. kind)
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Jan 18 - 03:12 PM

Hurling is indeed a fascinating game


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Subject: RE: BS: Football
From: MikeL2
Date: 10 Jan 18 - 03:08 PM

Hi Steve

"Your 10 Jan 18 - 01:58 PM "

You are more articulate than I am and I agree with most of your comments which you put better than me.

I have played most sports at various levels. I love most sports and these days as I am in my Eighties I watch most of it on TV. My No 1 son is able to get football match tickets and he takes me occasionally, otherwise I just would'nt be able to get there.

My family going back to my Grandfather have all been Manchester United Supporters.

My father though played Rugby League as a Semi pro for Broughton Rangers Belle Vue Rangers and Swinton.

I played football at school and represented my County. But my "ole fella" wanted me to play "rugger" and so I played both Rugby Union and League. But Union was my best love and I played for many years several clubs including Sale.

In summer I played cricket both in The Yorkshire and Cheshire Leagues.

When my rugby days were over Surprisingly I watched Football not rugby so much as I found it more exciting to watch.

I agree with Steve and his views on what is wrong with football and there is a lot.

I have played a little shinty when I was in Scotland and some Lacrosse back in England. These are crazy !!! I suffered more injuries and bruises than ever I did at football or rugby

I understand people who don't like football, that is their perrogative.

I can even understand people who support Liverpool. !!!!!!!!

At it's best football is thrilling, exciting and to me even beautiful.

Hope I haven't bored you all.

Regards

Mike


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Subject: RE: BS: Football
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jan 18 - 01:58 PM

Well I see that there's plenty of anti-footie sentiment here. Of course we all subsidise it. Advertising costs money and advertisers pass the costs to us. But that's just capitalism and I assume we all operate within the capitalist system, even if some of us wish we didn't have to be of it. I almost never watch ITV or Channel 4 or 5 but I still pay more for the stuff they advertise. You could advise me not to buy that stuff, but, as I don't see the ads, I dunno what stuff it is. This website is peppered with annoying ads for stuff vaguely linked to what I might have been googling. There's no such thing as a free lunch. But I'm not bothered. You pay the same taxes that support schools and universities even if you don't have kids. My council tax pays for police that I haven't seen anywhere near my house in thirty years and for taking my rubbish, which doesn't happen because I live too far from the main road. I pay for a nuclear deterrent that I despise and I'm about to pay for a new vanity railway costing tens of billions that I'll never be able to afford to use. But my only recourse may be to vote out the buggers who want to spend my money on these hare-brained schemes. The singling-out of footie - we pay for the advertising, the policing, the clearing-up, blah blah - makes me question the motives of the people who do the singling out. To them, footie is a Bad Thing/tribal/replete with rotten role models/overpaid/overhyped/22 silly men chasing a silly ball/bloody Wayne bloody Rooney...

How about instead that it's great entertainment for millions, it adds colour to a lot of lives that lack it, it requires supreme fitness, skill and tactics, it encourages youngsters to get outside in the fresh air, it's a way of forgetting the vicissitudes of life for a little while...above all, it keeps me and Mike off the streets and gets me and him arguing about Man U and Liverpool (naturally, he's always wrong about it all the time, just like my grandad was) instead of bloody brexit and bloody Thatcher and bloody popes. Things like that are all I talk about with some people here and it's pretty hard to imbue the conversations with much bonhomie. But Mike and I are at polar opposites of the political spectrum and guess what? Never a discouraging word to one another ever crosses our keyboards. And, Mr Red, it's true that big crowds are dangerous. The most dangerous big crowds are called armies. Very few people argue that armies are a Bad Thing, not even me. Everything comes at a cost. Consider your position!


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Subject: RE: BS: Football
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Jan 18 - 01:07 PM

I've just remembered collecting metal coins stamped with footballers heads from the local Esso petrol station
back when I was in primary school...


As I didn't drive and refuel, I guess me and my mates must have been begging motorists to hand over their free coins to us....???


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Subject: RE: BS: Football
From: Senoufou
Date: 10 Jan 18 - 12:49 PM

I know nothing about football (and could care even less!) But I'm told Norwich City aren't doing too well at the moment. Neither are Man U.
Husband is a Premier League tart though, and has a top for every team, which he wears on a whim. And a Cote d'Ivoire one (Les Elephants)


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Subject: RE: BS: Football
From: Mr Red
Date: 10 Jan 18 - 11:31 AM

It's just that Mr Red got me gander up with his sideswipes at footie fans

"More than a religion proved". Ya can't ask them to accept responsibility because of it. Not a sideswipe, a direct hit, deflected by the "not me" stratagem. It was the other tribe obviously!

And as for tribal - even a good hearted crowd are tribal. These days we don't see as much of the Milwall syndrome but it is not unknown to have an undercover French policeman in a gang of French supporters at the world cup in ie England. And if you saw Eurosport - the football ads are predominently about anti-racism. If you contrast that with a sport like MotoGP where they provide stands for Rossi yellow and Marquez orange but I ain't never heard of any antagonism because there are also Ducatista, Suziki supporters, KTM clan, Aprilia afficianados etc. More tribes, more dilute rivalry. A different kind of crowd who applaud the riders as they do their slow-down lap. F1 is in the same category (AFAIK). Tennis I would expect even more so. etc

Two teams invites more robust rivalry and it has been seen demonstrably so. Football must police itself it it wants to be respected by the majority (who don't give a toss about the over-priced game that we majority have to subsidise).

Large crowds are dangerous, tribal ones moreso. It needs regulation and review - constantly. The crowd dictate that. The rest of us demand it. The crowd think it is nanny state until ........... then they blame everyone else.


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Subject: RE: BS: Football
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Jan 18 - 11:19 AM

In the west country region where I grew up, there was no real football teams to get excited about..

When I was 7, I was obviously caught up in the world cup winning hysteria.. but that didn't last too long.

Then I was introduced to Rugby at grammar school.
We weren't allowed to play football.

It seems to me that the brutal blood and mud fouling and punch ups footie of the past,
has been so emasculated and sanitised,
no wonder the modern game is such an anodyne fashion entertainment so increasingly appealing to teenage girls...

We watch rugby and boxing in our house.

My mrs is Welsh and proudly tribal when it comes to rugby,
she gets a real bloodthirsty adrenolin buzz off watching the tackles and bad tempered exchanges.
And now that channel 5 is showing free to view boxing with occasional Welsh boxers,
She can be heard shouting & screaming at the telly from outside our bay window onto the road....


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Subject: RE: BS: Football
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 Jan 18 - 10:56 AM

'tribalism' is probably a very appropriate term due to the need (often) to segregate opposing groups of supporters.


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Subject: RE: BS: Football
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Jan 18 - 10:08 AM

Never got too much into footie myself but I used to enjoy watching Speedway at Belle Vue in the late 60s. I can sort of understand the 'tribalism' (probably should use a better word) as it happens, to a greater or lesser extent, in most sports.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Football
From: Raggytash
Date: 10 Jan 18 - 10:05 AM

Quite honestly Steve the diversion was much needed relief from the lack of comprehension in some quarters.

Having said that I don't really comprehend the tribal nature of football. I've witnessed it often enough but I can't get so emotionally involved over 22 men kicking an inflated pigs bladder around a pitch watched by 50,000 referees.

I'm pickling Gherkins today, can't beat a pickled Gherkin.


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Subject: RE: BS: Football
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jan 18 - 09:42 AM

Sorry for mucking your thread up, Raggytash. It's just that Mr Red got me gander up with his sideswipes at footie fans.

Tell you what. I'll copy and paste my post here right now and perhaps some kind mod would delete the post from your thread...?

Football non-fans constantly attacking football for being tribal is, ironically, tribal. So you don't like football. Well a lot of people do. A couple of years ago I tried, months in advance, to get a ticket for a relatively humdrum, non-crucial home match at Anfield (Liverpool vs Villa). No chance.

There a lot wrong with football. Players' pay at the top of the game is scandalous. Most league footballers don't get tens of thousands a week, however. We tend to dwell on the most egregious examples, which are actually a small minority. Ticket prices are outlandish in consequence (though you'd pay approximately as much for a decent seat at the opera or for a symphony concert). There's far too much corporate involvement. Some top clubs are bankrolled by billionaires who can buy or sell clubs at will and that's not really fair. Transfer fees at the top are ludicrous, and they are boosted further by parasitic agents taking huge slices of dosh. Television rights are bought for billions a year. We all pay for that eventually via advertising, even though you have to pay to see the matches on the telly. Which I do.

But wassup? It's a perfect example of capitalism in action. So is Tesco, Asda and Morrisons, but I still use them. Another thing that will, I know, never convince the footie-haters: at its best, which is often, it's a beautiful, flowing game that requires consummate skill, tactics and fitness. It isn't popular for nothing. And its popularity, whether you like it or not, crosses class boundaries. It's a great diversion for millions of people who haven't got much colour in their lives. And what's so wrong with diversions? And, let's face it, Liverpool FC are simply the greatest in waiting...


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Subject: RE: BS: Football
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Jan 18 - 07:10 AM

Televised Subbuteo...????


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Subject: BS: Football
From: Raggytash
Date: 10 Jan 18 - 06:44 AM

I can't say I'm really bothered all that much about football, I will watch the highlights and occasionally put on a whole match and read a book while it is on raising my head only when the commentary indicates something "exciting" is happening (it rarely is).

Contrast this to Hurling or Gaelic Football. In these two sports the action is fast, flowing, fluent, furious and fascinating. The players are all amateurs, they play merely for the glory and a successful team will be thought of as heroes long after they retire.

All in all much better games to watch.


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