Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy

Subject: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Richie
Date: 10 Jan 18 - 06:06 PM

Hi,

I wanted to share a study of Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy with you and welcome your contributions. Steve Gardham is helping with this thread.

Right now we're lost somewhere in Scotland. We're looking at versions of "Waukrife Mammy" (Wakeful Mother) which had been collected, recreated by Robert Burns about 1788.

One phrase "clod that winna (will not) cling" is found in a 1795 chapbook and also Cromek, Cunningham. Here is the stanza:

Blink o'er the burn, my bonny lass,
Blink o'er the burn, my honey,
For you've got the clod that will not cling,
In spite of your waulkrif mammie.

Several versions have "clod that winna cling" -- what is a literal translation?

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Tradsinger
Date: 10 Jan 18 - 07:00 PM

There are 4 versions on Glostrad.com

Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Richie
Date: 10 Jan 18 - 07:42 PM

Hi,

From: The Poetical Works of Robert Burns: Reprinted from the Best Editions comes this song

A WAUKRIFE MINNIE. [A wakeful mother]

I PICKED up this old song and tune from a country girl in Nithsdale. I never met with it elsewhere in Scotland:

Whare are you gaun, my bonnie lass?
Whare are you gaun, my hinnie?
She answered me right saucilie?
An errand for my minnie.

O, whare live ye, my bonnie lass?
O, where live ye, my hinnie?
By yon burn-side, gin ye maun ken,
In a wee house wi' my minnie.

But I foor up the glen at e'en,
To see my bonnie lassie;
And lang before the grey morn cam'
She was na hauf sae saucie.

O, weary fa the waukrife cock,
And the foumart lay his crawin'!
He waukened the auld wife frae her sleep,
A wee blink or the dawin.

An angry wife I wat she raise,
And o'er the bed she brought her;
And with a mickle hazel rung
She made her a weel-payed dochter.

O, fare thee weel, my bonnie lass,
O, fare thee weel, my hinnie :
Thou art a gay and a bonnie lass,
But thou hast a waukrife minnie.

* * * *

The identity of the "country girl" is revealed in Cromek's 'Remains of Nithsdale and Galloway Song,' 1810, which has a song "Oh who is this under my window'. The first half of the headnote is:

This old song is taken down from the singing of Martha Crosbie, from whose recitation Burns wrote down the song of "The Waukrife Minnie."

Martha Crosbie also entertained young Alan Cunningham at his father's house. Although Cunningham does not mention her as Burns' source, he says in 1925, "I have heard it often sung in my youth, and sung with curious and numerous variations." Cunningham adds "I believe it to be a very old song." He adds two stanzas.

Thomas Lyle says in 1827, ". . .considering how very common the Ballad has been over the shires of Ayr and Renfrew, both before and since the Poet's day; so common, indeed, is it still, that we have had some demurings about inserting it here at all."

Lyle's 1827 version was advertised as "Chiefly from Tradition, Manuscripts, and Scarce Works" and was printed in a c.1830 Scottish chapbook in Falkirk.

The identifying stanza "How old are you--" is missing in these versions but is included a 1795 Edinburgh print.

If anyone has access to or knows any early "Waukrife" versions, please post them.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Richie
Date: 10 Jan 18 - 07:58 PM

Hi,

TY. Tradsinger (Gwilym) for providing the site for those four versions of "Seventeen Come Sunday" -- it's a very fine and excellent site.

Before we get to Seventeen Come Sunday (our master title) I'd like to look at these early Scottish (possibly English) which date, according to Thomas Lyle, to the 1750s (before Burns time, he was born, I believe, in 1759).

The Burns' version, which according to Cunningham was from tradition and his pen is dated circa 1788.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Richie
Date: 10 Jan 18 - 08:04 PM

Hi,

In the 1827 book "Ancient Ballads and Songs: Chiefly from Tradition, Manuscripts, and Scarce Works" Thomas Lyle wrote the following and supplied a version which dates earlier to the mid-1700s:

The "Wakerife mammy," is here noted down with some trifling corrections, from the west country set of the Ballad, where its day of popularity amongst the peasantry, was equal, at least, with that of the foregoing one. Burns says that he picked up a version of it from a country girl's singing in Nithsdale, and that he never either met with the song or the air to which it is sung elsewhere in Scotland. We marvel not a little at this, after considering how very common the Ballad has been over the shires of Ayr and Renfrew, both before and since the Poet's day; so common, indeed, is it still, that we have had some demurings about inserting it here at all. The air is a very pretty one, with two lines of a nonsensical chorus, sung after each stanza, which certainly merits other verses to be adapted for it, when like many other wanderers of the day, it then might again be received into favour. Burns's copy, in Johnston's Museum, differs a good deal from the foregoing one, besides wanting the commencing stanza. Cunningham's set of words in the second volume of his " Songs of Scotland," is equally faulty.

THE WAKERIFE MAMMY.

As I gaed o'er the Highland hills,
I met a bonnie lassie;
Wha' look'd at me, and I at her,
And O but she was saucy.

Whare are ye gaun, my bonnie lass,
Whare are ye gaun, my lammy;
Right saucily she answer'd me,
An errand to my mammy.

An' whare live ye, my bonnie lass,
Whare do ye won, my lammy;
Right modestly she answer'd me,
In a wee cot wi' my mammy.

Will ye tak' me to your wee house,
I'm far frae hame, my lammy;
Wi' a leer o' her eye, she answer'd me,
   I darna for my mammy.

But I fore up the glen at e'en,
To see this bonnie lassie;
And lang before the gray morn cam',
She wasna' half sae saucie.

O weary fa' the wakerife cock,
An' the fumart lay his crawing;
He wauken'd the auld wife frae her rest,
A wee blink or the dawing.

Wha straught began to blaw the coal,
To see gif she could ken me;
But I crap out from whare I lay,
And took the fields to skreen me.

She took her by the hair o' the head,
As frae the spence she brought her,
An' wi' a gude green hazel wand,
   She's made her a weel paid dochter.

Now fare thee weel, my bonnie lass,
An fare thee weel, my lammy,
Tho' thou has a gay, an' a weel-far't face,
Yet thou has a wakerife mammy.

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Richie
Date: 10 Jan 18 - 08:10 PM

Hi,

Avery similar version of "Waukrife Mammy" was printed in Falkirk about 1830 (the site says 1840 but I have other info). It may be viewed online here:

http://digital.tcl.sc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/rbc/id/2273/rec/2

The title of the chapbook is "Two Old Songs- The Perjured Maid, The Waukrife Mammy."

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Richie
Date: 10 Jan 18 - 09:08 PM

Hi,

The earliest extant appearance of the identifying stanza in print is found in this 1795 version that probably was printed in Edinburgh (two sources have: Edinburgh?) It sent to me by Steve Gardham. The Scottish dialect has been tempered and there's a second chorus for the last stanza which may have been used throughout. Cf. Crawfurd's 1825 version of 10 stanzas.

The lass is fourteen but will be fifteen on Sunday. It appears in "Four Excellent New Songs: The Lassie Lost Her Maidenhead a' for Her Waukrif Mammie. Johnie Cope. Rinorden, Or The Mountains High The General Toast. Entered and Licenced."

The Lassie Lost Her Maidenhead a' for Her Waukrif Mammie.

As I went o'er the Highland hills,
I met a bonnie lassie;
She looked at me, and I at her,
And vow[1] but she was saucy.
To my rou tou fal dee lal, &c

Where are you going, my bonny lass?
Where are you going, my honey?
Right modestly she answer'd me,
An errand for my mammie.
To my rou tou fal dee lal, &c

What is your age, my bonny lass?
What is your age, my honey?
Right modestly she answer'd me,
I'm fifteen years come Sunday.
To my rou tou fal dee lal, &c[2]

Will you take a man, my bonny lass?
Will you take a man, my honey?
Right modestly she answer'd me,
I dare not for my mammie.

Where do you live, my bonnie lass?
Where do you live, my honey?
Right modestly she answer'd me,
In a wie[wee] house wi' my mammie.

I went into my love's chamber,
To see if she was wauking,
But we had not spoke a word or to [two]
Till her mother heard us talking.

Then she began to blaw the coal,
To see if she could ken me;
But I creeped out at the bed-foot,
And took the fields to screen me.

Then she took her by the hair of the head,
And to the floor she brought her,
And with a good green hazel rung,
She made her a well paid daughter.

O haul your hand, mother she says
You're like for to devour me;
For I would never have done the like,
If you had not done't[3] before me.

Blink o'er the burn, my bonny lass,
Blink o'er the burn, my honey,
For you've got the clod that will not cling,
In spite of your waulkrif mammie.

So fare thee well, my bonnie lass,
So fare thee well, my honey,
For I would come and see you again,
Weren't for your wakerif mammy.
   With my rou tou fal dam dail,
   All, all de to my tou.

1. wow (possibly an affectated "v" comic style)
2. Chorus throughout
3. dont't

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Richie
Date: 10 Jan 18 - 10:48 PM

Hi,

This is a translation of Burns:

A Wakeful Mother- Collected by Burns from Martha Crosbie, a carder and spinner of wool, circa 1788.

"Where are you going, my bonnie lass?
Where are you going, my honey?'
She answered me right saucily: -
"An errand for my mother!"

"O, where live you, my bonnie lass?
O, where live you, my honey?"
"By yon stream side, if you must know,
In a little house with my mother."

But I went up the glen at evening
To see my bonnie lassie,
And long before the grey morn came
She was not half so saucy.

O, woe befall the wakeful cock,
And the polecat stop his crowing!
He awakened the old woman from her sleep
A little bit before the dawning.

An angry wife I know she rose,
And out of the bed she brought her,
And with a big hazel switch
She made her a well-punished daughter.

'O, fare-thee-well, my bonnie lass!
O, fare-thee-well, my honey!
You are a gay and a bonnie lass,
But you have a wakeful mother!'

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 02:46 AM

Tommy Dempsey, the Birmingham/Irish folksinger used ( and I'm sure still does) a great version of this song.

also its in that classical suite of Vaughan Williams
(from Wikipedia)
Written in 1923, the English Folk Song Suite is one of English composer Ralph Vaughan Williams's most famous works for military band. It was published originally as simply Folk Song Suite. Its premiere was given at Kneller Hall on 4 July 1923, conducted by Lt Hector Adkins.[1]

In 1924, the piece was arranged for full orchestra by Vaughan Williams' student Gordon Jacob, with the word "English" at the beginning of the title. Frank Wright produced a version for an English-style brass band; it was copyrighted in 1956.

Contents [hide]
1        Structure
1.1        March: Seventeen Come Sunday
1.2        Intermezzo: My Bonny Boy
1.3        March: Folk Songs from Somerset
2        Instrumentation
2.1        Original Concert Band Version
2.2        2008 Revised Concert Band Version
2.3        Orchestra Version

Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Richie
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 04:41 PM

Hi,

TY for the info about Tommy Dempsey's version. I'm sure that will be part of the study later. Percy Grainger, a friend of my grandparents, also did an arrangement in 1912.

You quoted Wiki's entry for Seventeen come Sunday which states, "The words were first published between 1838 and 1845."

So far in the first days of our study we have 6 Scottish versions earlier that 1838 and we haven't even discussed the "Lady and the Soldier" versions:

A. Waukrife Mammy;
   a. "Wakerife Mammy," dated c.1750 from Thomas Lyle's 1827 book "Ancient Ballads and Songs: Chiefly from Tradition, Manuscripts, and Scarce Works."
   b. "Waukrife Minnie" taken by Robert Burns from Martha Crosbie of Nithdale circa 1788.
   c. "The Lassie Lost Her Maidenhead a' for Her Waukrif Mammie" dated 1795 (Edinburgh?) published in "Four Excellent New Songs: The Lassie Lost Her Maidenhead a' for Her Waukrif Mammie. Johnie Cope. Rinorden, Or The Mountains High The General Toast. Entered and Licenced."
   d. "Waukrife Minnie," published 1825 but older; two stanzas given by Alan Cunningham, supposedly from tradition in "The Songs of Scotland, Ancient and Modern" Volume 2, p. 244-245.
   e. "The Well Pay't Dochter,"- from Andrew Crawfurd's Collection of Ballads and Songs: edited E. B. Lyle; Edinburgh: Scottish Text Society, 1975.
   f. "The Waukrife Mammy" dated 1830 from a Scottish Chapbook (no publisher given) Printed for the booksellers; Falkirk. Two Old Songs- The Perjured Maid, The Waukrife Mammy; http://digital.tcl.sc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/rbc/id/2273/rec/2
   g. "My Rolling Eye" dated c. 1850. Taken from Alexander Smith of Perthshire by Robert Ford. Published in Vagabond Songs and Ballads of Scotland: With Many Old and Familiar Melodies edited by Robert Ford, 1899.

The first five all pre-date the early date of 1838. Hopefully we'll find more, I'll post some of the other early versions soon,

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Richie
Date: 12 Jan 18 - 11:31 AM

Hi,

This last version (see also Crawfurd) of "Waukrife Mammy" is titled after the chorus. It's dated about 1850. From "Vagabond Songs and Ballads of Scotland; With Many Old and Familiar Melodies" edited by Robert Ford, 1899. Notice that the lassie's lover is a soldier (sodger)-- an important detail found in many later versions. Here's the text-- Ford's notes follow:

MY ROLLING EYE. [c.1850]

As I gaed up yon Hieland hill,
   I met a bonnie lassie,
She looked at me and I at her,
And oh, but she was saucy.

CHORUS With my rolling eye,
Fal the diddle eye,
Rolling eye, dum derry,
With my rolling eye.

"Where are you going, my bonnie lass?
Where are you going, my lammie?"
Right modestly she answered me?
"An errand to my mammie."

With my rolling eye, etc.

"Where do you live, my bonnie lass?
Where do you won, my lammie?"
Right modestly she answered me?
"In a wee house wi' my mammie."

With my rolling eye, etc.

"What is your name, my bonnie lass?
What is your name, my lammie?"
Right modestly she answered me?
"My name is Bonnie Annie."

With my rolling eye, etc.

"How old are you, my bonnie lass?
How old are you, my lammie?"
Rightly modestly she answered me?
"I'm sixteen years come Sunday."

With my rolling eye, etc.

"Where do you sleep, my bonnie lass?
Where do you sleep, my lammie?"
Right modestly she answered me?
"In a wee bed near my mammie."

With my rolling eye, etc.

"If I should come to your board-end
When the moon is shining clearly,
Will you rise and let me in
That the auld wife mayna hear me?"

With my rolling eye, etc.

"If you will come to my bower door
When the moon is shining clearly,
I will rise and lat you in,
And the auld wife winna hear ye."

With my rolling eye, etc.

When I gaed up to her bower door,
   I found my lassie wauken,
But lang before the grey morn cam',
The auld wife heard us talkin'

With my rolling eye, etc.

It's weary fa' the waukrife cock
May the foumart lay his crawing,
He wauken'd the auld wife frae her sleep,
A wee blink ere the dawing.

With my rolling eye, etc.

She gaed to the fire to blaw the coal,
To see if she would ken me,
But I dang the auld runt in the fire,
And bade my heels defend me.

With my rolling eye, etc.

"Oh, sodger, you maun marry me,
And now's the time or never;
Oh, sodger, you maun marry me,
Or I am done for ever."

With my rolling eye, etc.

"Blink ower the burn, my bonnie lass,
Blink ower the burn, my lammie,
Ye are a sweet and kindly queen,
For a' yer waukrife minnie."

With my rolling eye,
Fal the diddle eye,
Rolling eye, dum derry,
With my rolling eye.

There are many people living who vividly remember an odd character known as "Rolling Eye " or "Singing Sandy," who from forty to fifty years ago regularly visited the villages of Perthshire and Fifeshire in the capacity of an itinerant musician, and sang only this song. It was customary for Sandy (his real name, I believe, was Alexander Smith, and he hailed originally from Freuchie) in the summer months to have his hat profusely adorned with gay-coloured ribbons and natural flowers. His antics, too, when singing were particularly lively and attractive, and a tremendous slap on the thigh with his hand always, as he started the chorus, was the signal for those standing about to join in. Wherever he went he was followed by a crowd of delighted children, for whose attachment he had the utmost esteem.

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Richie
Date: 12 Jan 18 - 04:15 PM

Hi,

If anyone has a version of "Waukrife Mammy" that we missed, please post it or any information about it.

The second form of "Seventeen Come Sunday" which dates to the late 1700s and early 1800s is usually titled, "Lady and Soldier" or "Maid and Soldier." These revisions pre-date the popular "Seventeen Come Sunday" titles of the mid-1800s.

The earliest extant date, circa 1800, was a chapbook printed by J. Morren (Edinburgh) "Three Songs:
LODGINGS for Single GENTLEMEN,
Young Man's Frolic,
The Lady and Soldier.

Here is the text:

The Lady and Soldier.

1. AS I did walk along the street,
I was my father's darling,
There I spied a pretty maid,
Just as the sun was rising.
      With my rulal, la.

2. Where are you going my pretty maid,
Where are you going my honey?
She answer?d me right modestly,
Of an errand for my mammy.

3. Will you marry me, my bonny lass?
Will you marry me, my honey?
With all my heart kind sir, said she,
But dare not for my mammy.

4. Come ye but to my father's house.
When the moon shines bright and clearly,
And I will rise and let you in,
And my mammy she won't hear me.

5. I have a wife, she is my own,
And how can I disdain her.
And every town that I go through,
A girl if I can find her.

6. I?ll go to-bed quite late at night,
Rise early the next morning,
The buglehorn is my delight,
And the hautboy [oboe] is my darling.

7. Of sketches I have got enough,
And money in my pocket,
And what care I for any one,
It's of the girls I've got it.
    With my rulal, la.

FINIS

This version is missing stanzas, the "How old are you" stanza and also stanzas after 4 but shows the modern form (no wakeful mother), albeit a confused story line. Memorable is the line:

And the hautboy [oboe] is my darling.

Also unusual is the use of the word "sketches" in the last stanza which appears to be slang for "plans" but its use is sketchy. Anyone?

An affinity to Trooper and the Maid appears:

Come ye but to my father's house,
When the moon shines bright and clearly,

They are different songs and this seems to be the only common text. The "moon shines bright and clearly" appears in both suggesting the possibility of an unknown association or common ancestry. This text persists in many "Seventeen Come Sunday" versions. I'm not suggesting that the two songs are the same and suggestions that they are have caused confusion. The "soldier" seems to have been added to the "Seventeen Come Sunday" text in the 1800s. At least the early Scottish versions do have the soldier stanza. This version is missing the soldier stanza.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 12 Jan 18 - 05:10 PM

Considering the subject matter of the ballad it's possible 'hautboy' is here a sexual cliche.

I know in our emails I started to move away from 'coins' to 'plans' but looking again I can't help thinking 'sketches' is something more physical. He has got money from the girls so what else could he be bragging about?

BTW I've checked the Oxford Dictionary and though it has lots of definitions one of which is 'plans' none seem to fit easily here. I still think it's a cant term but Googling doesn't bring it up.

Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Jan 18 - 05:16 PM

Firstly a disclaimer. I don't wish to add confusion to your studies. I am certainly no expert on this or any other folk song.

1) I see no mention of the gob music/as she landed addition to the song that I have often heard added to Irish version

2) I think many singers have been influenced by the vaiant of this that Christy Moore sings - I don't know the precise sources for Christy's version.

apologies in advance if i am talking shite.

Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Lighter
Date: 12 Jan 18 - 09:54 PM

I see no compelling reason to doubt that "hautboy" means "hautboy," a standard instrument in military "bands of music."

No suggestion comes to mind for "sketches."

Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Richie
Date: 12 Jan 18 - 09:56 PM

Hi,

Steve-- eventually we might find what "sketches" means -- and it does seem like a physical object.

Big Al-- Christy Moore's arrangement, which has some confused text, is not the right song- it's an Irish version of Trooper and the Maid. I'm not exactly sure what 1) your first question is. Perhaps you can explain again. These are the "Seventeen Come Sunday" songs and have the questions "Will you take a man" "How old are you" "Where do you live" and usually start with "Where are you going."

TY for contributing,

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Richie
Date: 13 Jan 18 - 11:36 AM

Hi Lighter,

Since the previous line "The buglehorn is my delight," is about a musical instrument, "hautboy" would logically be an oboe instead of something else.

The fact that it is his "darling" gives me some concern :) What about his wife and sixteen year old girlfriend?

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Richie
Date: 14 Jan 18 - 08:14 AM

Hi,

The new form of "Waukrife Mammy" (given above) now called "Lady and the Soldier," or "Maid and Soldier" and later "Soldier and the Fair Maid" appears to be a broadside writer's attempt to sanitize "Waukrife Mammy." Gone is the wakeful mother and bedroom scene. The ballad has incorporated bits from Trooper and the Maid-- a similar title, the introduction of the "soldier" as her lover, and the "moon shines bright and clearly" text.

The Morren print of 1800 (our earliest known extant version) is not the earliest. It's incomplete and missing the soldier stanza. We do not know what version it was taken from but that earlier version (from the late 1700s) had the soldier stanza in it. Here's a full version from c. 1820:

"Maid and Soldier" printed in London at 115 Long Alley by Thomas Batchelar about 1820 is a longer version than "Lady and the Soldier" with a slight variation of the chorus:

Maid and Soldier

1. As I did walk along the street,
I was my father's darling,
A pretty maid there I did meet
Just as the sun was rising.
      With my row de dow.

2. Her shoes were black her stocking white,
The buckles were of silver,
She had a black and rolling eye,
Her hair hung down her shoulders.

3. Where are you going my pretty maid
Where are you going my honey ?
She answer'd me right cheerfully,
Of an errand for my mammy.

4. How old are you, my pretty maid?
How old are you, my honey?"
She answer'd me right cheerfully:
"I'm seventeen come Sunday."

5. Will you marry me, my pretty maid?
Will you marry me, my honey?
With all my heart, kind sir, she said ,
But dare not for my mammy.

6. Come you but to my mammy's house.
When the moon shines bright and clearly,
I will rise and let you in,
My mammy shall not hear me.

7. Oh! soldier, will you marry me?
Now is your time or never,
And if you do not marry me,
I am undone forever.

8. I have a wife and she is my own,
How can I disdain her,
And every town that I go thro',
A girl if I can find her.

9. I?ll go to bed quite late at night,
Rise early the next morning,
The buglehorn is my delight,
And the oboy [oboe] is my darling.

10. Of sketches I have got enough.
And money in my pocket,
And what care I for any one,
It's of the girls I've got it.

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Richie
Date: 14 Jan 18 - 08:28 AM

Hi,

If you look back at Ford's version (see above) of Waulkrife Mammy taken from Scotland about 1850 you can see text from the "Maid and Soldier" revisions of the early 1800s.

The soldier (sodger) appears as well as the "moon shines" stanza. The "black and rolling eye" is now found in the chorus as "rolling eye." Ford's version as well as some versions collected by Greig-Duncan in Aberdeenshire in the early 1900s (which date back to the 1800s) show that "Waulrife Mammy" had added text from "Maid and Soldier."

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Lighter
Date: 14 Jan 18 - 10:47 AM

The English Dialect Dictionary (ca1900) defines "sketch" as a Co. Antrim term for "knack."

This meaning seems to fit the sense of the song (the singer does have a "knack" for getting next to young women), but it seems to have had a very limited distribution.

Lacking further evidence, I'd suggest it only as the best of various poor choices.

Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 14 Jan 18 - 02:19 PM

I wonder if that could be extended to nicknacks, meaning favours, baubles, presents (from the girls). It is widely attested that the young ladies of all classes favoured the soldiers in their scarlet uniforms. (Far from the Madding Crowd) There is still a strong link to the money in the next line which suggests that it is a physical thing like the money. The best bet would probably be finding it in another ballad. I don't have a specific collection of cant songs but I do have some somewhere in other books.

Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Richie
Date: 14 Jan 18 - 03:09 PM

Hi,

A 4th form (a revision of Maid and Soldier/Soldier and the Fair Maid) was crafted by a broadside writer around 1840. This is the standard form with the "Seventeen Come Sunday" title and a "happy" ending. There are several endings, not all happy, that mirror the Maid and Soldier. Here's the text ( from J. Paul and Co., Printers, 2 & 3, Monmouth Court, Seven Dials, 1838-1845):

SEVENTEEN COME SUNDAY. (standard broadside text)

As I walked out one May morning,
One May morning so early'
I overtook a handsome maid,
Just as the sun was rising,
With my ru, rum, ra.

Her stockings white, her shoes were bright,
Her buckles shined like silver,
She had a black and a rolling eye,
And her hair hung over her shoulder.

Where are you going my pretty maid,
Where are you going my honey?
She answered me right cheerfully,
An errand for my mammy.

How old are you my pretty maid,
How old are you my honey,
She answered me right modestly,
I'm seventeen come Sunday.

Will you take a man my pretty maid,
Will you take a man my honey?
She answered me right cheerfully,
I dare not for my mammy.

If you will come to my mammy's house,
When the moon shines bright and clearly,
I'll come down and let you in,
My mammy shall not hear you.

I went down to her mammy's house,
When the moon so bright was shining,
She came down and let me in,
And I lay in her arms till morning.

Soldier will you marry me?
For now is your time or never,
For if you do not marry me,
I am undone for ever.

Now I am with my soldier lad,
Where the wars they are alarming,
A drum and fife are my delight,
And a pint of rum in the morning.

Most of the traditional English versions from the late 1800s and early 1900s adhere to this broadside text.

Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Lighter
Date: 14 Jan 18 - 06:09 PM

Steve, I wouldn't expect "sketch" to have been extended to knicknacks in any significant way, because the basic sense," knack," seems to have had such limited currency. That would make a "knicknack" sense rarer still.

Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jan 18 - 06:31 PM

sketch > knack > skill maybe? "Of skills I have got enough"

Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Richie
Date: 14 Jan 18 - 11:07 PM

Hi,

Thought I'd begin posting a few older traditional versions. This is a composite mostly of "Maid and Soldier," the second form. The opening stanza is definitely "Waukrife Mammy." Compare to stanza from "My Rolling Eye" (Ford, c. 1850).

The Soldier Lad - sung by William Watson, New Byth, Aberdeenshire; collected by Gavin Grieg about 1907.

1. As I went up high, high hill,
I met a bonnie lassie;
She looked at me, and I at her,
And oh she was so saucy.

2. Where are ye gaun, my pretty lass,
Where are ye gaun, my honey?
Right modestly she answered me,
An eeran [errand] to my mammy.

3. "Wad ye tak' a man my bonnie lass,
"Wad ye tak' a man my honey?
Right modestly she answered me,
I daurna [dare not] for my mammy.

4. "Where do ye dwell, my bonnie lass,
"Where do ye dwell, my honey?
Right modestly she answer'd me,
"In a wee hoose by my mammy."

5. What is your name my bonnie lass
What is your name my honey
Right modestly she answered me,
"They ca' me Bonny Annie."

6. "I'll come up to your chamber at night
When the moon is shining clearly,
An' ye will rise an' let me in
An' the auld wife winna hear me."

7. She up to your chamber at nicht
When the moon is shining clearly,
And she did rise an' let me in
And the auld wife didna hear them.

8. When he had lain wi' her a' nicht
And pairt o' the next mornin'
An' up he rose, put on his clothes
"I must away my darlin'."

9. "Now, sodger, you maun mairry me,
For noo's the time or never;
Noo, sodger, you maun mairry me,
Or thance I'm done for ever."

10. I have a wife in my own country
And why should I abuse her?
I have a sweetheart in every toon
An' a girlie when I choose her.

11. The soldier's lad is my delight,
The "white bob" is my darlin',
The grenadiers deserve a cheer,
For they march twice ere mormin'.

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Richie
Date: 15 Jan 18 - 09:04 AM

Hi,

The following short version is one of the oldest traditional versions in the US which I've dated c.1840. From Cox, Folk Songs of the South, 1925:

"Seventeen Come Sunday." Contributed by Miss Bessie Bock, Farmington, Marion County; learned from her grandmother, a lady of Scotch-Irish descent, who learned it when a little girl and who would be eighty years old if now living.

1 "O where are you going, my pretty maid?
O where are you going, my honey? "
She answered me so modestly,
"An errand for my mommie."

2 "How old are you, my pretty maid?
How old are you, my honey? "
She answered me so modestly,
"I'm seventeen come Sunday."

3 "0 where do you live, my pretty maid?
O where do you live, my honey?"
She answered me so modestly,
"In a wee, wee cot with my mommie."

4 "Will you marry me, my pretty maid?
Will you marry me, my honey? "
She answered me so modestly,
"If it weren't for my mommie."

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Richie
Date: 15 Jan 18 - 09:33 AM

Hi,

This broadside of which there are at least two extant different printings is a 3rd specific form which is similar to the Seventeen Come Sunday Broadsides and perhaps predates them (I've dated them 1830s). It has a different ending and is missing one line (in brackets). It's an intermediate version between "Maid and Soldier" and "Seventeen Come Sunday". Soldier and the Fair Maid was mentioned in Cox's (Folk Songs of the South) notes (see last post).

Soldier and the Fair Maid. (broadside text; Yorkshire, later, Dickinson of York, dated late 1830s)

As I walked out one May morning,
Just as the day was dawning,
There I espied a pretty fair maid,
Just as the sun was rising,
    With my row, dow, dow.

Where are you going my pretty maid,
Where are you going my honey?
She answered me right cheerfully,
An errand for my mammy.

Her shoes were black, her stockings white,
[Her buckles shined like silver,]
She had a black and rolling eye,
And her hair hung over her shoulder.

Will you marry me, my pretty fair maid,
Will you marry me, my honey?
She answered me right cheerfully,
I dare not for my mammy.

How old are you my pretty fair maid,
How old are you my honey,
She answered me right cheerfully,
I am seventeen come Sunday.

Will you come to my mammy's house,
When the moon shines bright and clearly,
I'll come down and let you in,
And my mammy shall not hear me.

I went down to her mammy's house,
When the moon shone bright and clearly,
And she came down and let me in,
And her mammy never heard me.

Come soldier will you marry me?
For now is your time or never,
For if you will not marry me,
I am undone for ever.

No lassie I will not marry,
For all thy father's treasure,
For every town I pass through,
I will have a fresh lass if I can gain her.

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Richie
Date: 15 Jan 18 - 10:24 AM

Hi,

We will not be going into these versions soon but I want to present some information showing the diversity of this ballad. In the US there's a wide assortment of uses of the "Seventeen come Sunday" stanzas including several songs which use floating verses that are based on, or originated from "Seventeen Comes Sunday." Particularly popular is the "How old are you" stanza and another stanza which seems to be derived from "Fare thee well my bonnie lass/pretty little miss" and has become "Fly around my pretty little miss." Many of these songs are dance tunes or play-party songs. The following titles are associated with these stanzas:

Fly Around My Pretty Little Miss
Pretty Little Miss
Little Betty Ann (Sharp EFSSA)
Shady Grove (tune/lyrics)
Daisy
How Old Are You My Pretty Little Miss?
Wheevily Wheat

As an example I give the Wheevily Wheat B version from "Round the Levee" edited by Stith Thompson, 1916. He comments:

Another version of "Weevily Wheat," collected by Miss Mary S. Brown of Gatesville, Texas, from Wallace Fogle, a famous play-party singer of Coryell County, runs as follows. The boys and girls line up opposite each other; the boys begin swinging at one end, and girls at the other, each swinging his or her partner.

Way down yonder in the maple swamp,
The water's deep and muddy.
There I spied my pretty little miss,
O there I spied my honey.

How old are you, my little miss,
How old are you, my honey?
She answered with a ha-ha laugh,
"I'll be sixteen next Sunday."

The higher up the cherry tree,
Riper grows the cherry,
Sooner a boy courts a girl,
Sooner they will marry,

So run along home, my pretty little miss,
Run along home, my honey,
Run along home, my pretty miss,
I'll be right there next Sunday.

Papa's gone to New York town,
Mama's gone to Dover,
Sister's worn her new slippers out
A-kicking Charley over.

Wheevily Wheat is a floating title but should have the Wheevily Whaet stanza in it-- in the preceding lyrics it does not appear. The last line is a reference to "Bonnie Sweet Prince Charlie" who, in a bizarre twist, is part of Robert Burn's song that introduces "pretty little pink" also related, although vaguely to the "How old are you" songs in the US. "Charlie" is Prince Charles Edward Stewart, 1720-1788 and the related songs have the "Over the water to Charlie" lines. The following titles are play-party songs that are sometimes related:

Bile Dem Cabbage Down
Pretty Little Pink
Charlie's Neat
Coffee grows on white oak trees

Here are the standard floating stanzas in Tales and Songs of Southern Illinois by Charles Neely:

Come trip with me, my pretty little miss,
Come trip with me, my honey;
Come trip with me, my pretty little miss;
I'll be sixteen next Sunday.

How old are you, my pretty little miss,
How old are you, my honey?
She answered me with a "Tee, hee, hee"
"I'll be sixteen next Sunday."

Another association with the "How old are you" stanza is found in Child 243 Gypsy David/Davy (House Carpenter). This is the most popular House Carpenter text, as recorded by Carter Family in 1940-- and widely copied (originally recorded by Cliff Carlisle 1939, covers include Bascom Lunsford and later Doc Watson). Here are the first three stanzas, the second is the "How old are you" stanza:

Black Jack David

Black Jack David came ridin' through the woods,
And he sang so loud and gaily.
Made the hills around him ring,
And he charmed the heart of a lady.
And he charmed the heart of a lady.

"How old are you, my pretty little miss?
How old are you, my honey?"
She answered him with a silly little smile,
"I'll be sixteen next Sunday.
I'll be sixteen next Sunday."

"Come go with me, my pretty little miss.
Come go with, me my honey.
I'll take you across the deep blue sea,
Where you never shall want for money.
Where you never shall want for money."

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Richie
Date: 15 Jan 18 - 05:57 PM

Hi,

This early Scottish version, which I've dated c.1829, was transcribed by Emily Lyle from Andrew Crawfurd's Collection (Crawfurd, a disabled doctor and avid ballad collector, was born in 1786 and died in 1854). According to Steve Gardham who sent this to me: "Thomas Macqueen was one of the collectors employed by Andrew Crawfurd, who in turn collected material for William Motherwell." This version is not from Macqueen-- it was taken from William Orr in Lochwinioch, about 1829. It's written in heavy dialect and "rinkand" (wakened) is used for "waukrife" (wakeful); "well pay't dochter" is "well-punished daughter." Compare to the 1795 print.

The Well Pay't Dochter- taken from William Orr in Lochwinioch, about 1829; from Andrew Crawfurd's Collection of Ballads and Songs: edited E. B. Lyle; Edinburgh: Scottish Text Society, 1975

1.As I gade o'er the Hieland hills,
I met a bonnie lassie;
She lookit at me, and I at her,
And vow[1] but she was saucie.

2. Whar are you gaun, my bonnie lass
Where are you going, my hinnie
Richt scornfullie she anserit me,
An eirrand for my mannie.

3. What is thy aige, my bonnie lass,
What is thy aige, my hinnie,
Richt scornfullie she anserit me,
I am fyftein cum Sunday.

4. Whar do thou lieve, my bonnie lass
Whar do thou lieve, my hinnie
Richt scornfullie she anserit me,
In a wee house wi' my minnie.

5. Will tu tak a man, my bonnie lass
Will tu tak a man, my hinnie
Richt scornfullie she anserit me,
I daurna not for my minnie.

6. As I gade into my love's roum,
To see if my love was waukand,
Her minnie was blawand the fyre
For she hard us taukand.

7. Then she began to blaw the ingle [coal],
To see if she wad ken me;
But I creipit out at the bed-fit [feet],
And to the woods to screin me.

8. She teuk her by the hair of the heid,
And unto the flore she brocht her,
And wi a gode hazel rung,
She's made her a well pay't dochter[2].

9. Blink owr the burn, my bonnie lass,
Blink owr the burn, my hinnie,
Thou's gat the clog that winna cling,
In spyte o thy rinkan minnie.

10 It's fare thou weil, my bonnie lass,
Fare thou weil, my hinnie,
It's I wad cum and see thee again,
Weren't for your rinkand minnie.

__________________

1. wow (possibly an affectation of the "v" used in comic style)
2. well-punished daughter

Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 16 Jan 18 - 12:45 PM

Richie, apologies. I didn't send you the full info from Crawfurd. It was actually William Orr in Lochwinioch, about 1829, so it's not one of MacQueen's.

Irish versions, though scarce, are interesting. The 2 quite different versions given by Sam Henry in the north appear to be mixtures of Scottish and English versions. One possibility is that there was a broadside, we haven't seen yet which was an interim version in between the Scottish and English.

Seamus Ennis's version recorded by Kennedy in Dublin in the 50s is a straight hybrid of the basic English version with Trooper and Maid, the Child Ballad. The first 4 verses and chorus are SCS and the next 5 are Trooper and Maid. Seamus Ennis was well capable of mixing and matching himself. I know of no other version that does this.

Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 16 Jan 18 - 02:57 PM

Just looking through American versions, as you say many of them are just fragments, but there are some interesting versions. Regarding the hybrids with 'Gypsy laddie, looking at the NC versions it's pretty obvious Gypsy Laddie is the host ballad with a couple of verses from SCS grafted on.

Here are the longer ones I have seen so far.

Sharp's Franklin Va version 7v, standard SCS apart from the last verse which seems to be unique in N America, and occurs in the Crawfurd version.

Catskills p479 from the Edwards brothers 7v again appears to have a unique last 3 stanzas in N. America although they are found in most British printed versions.

Hubbard's Utah version 6v has nothing special

Eddy's A version 7v has the 'where do you live' verse but this is found in a couple of other shorter US versions.

Her B version is quite unusual 8v in that it has the Scottish 'What is your name' verse, again unique in N America, and it also has some pretty extensive incremental repetition that Peter Buchan would have been proud of.

Creighton's Nova Scotia version, 6v, contains a verse from Trooper and Maid.

Peacock's 5v version is pretty standard English.

I use the word unique only with the reserve that there will be other versions I don't have access to currently.

Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Richie
Date: 16 Jan 18 - 04:27 PM

Hi,

Anyone that knows any early Irish versions, please mention or post. Here's my transcription of As I Roved Out. Lomax met Seamus Ennis and family in Dublin in early 1951 so I'm dating this 1951. The last stanza is associated with Trooper and the Maid. Seamus Ennis recorded "When cockle shells make silver bells" AFS 09961A (AFS Number) in 1947 which apparently (I don't have the recording but Paul Clayton did a cover of it in 1957) has additional stanza from Trooper in the Maid (see Gardham's post). Anyone that has more info please post.

As I Roved Out- sung by Seamus Ennis, Dublin c. 1951; recorded by Alan Lomax

As I roved out one bright May morning,
On a May morning early,
As I roved out one bright May morning,
On a May morning early,
I met a maid upon the way,
She was her mama's darling.

Chorus: With me rule-rum-rah, fa-la-diddle-da,
Shall be diddle all the day-dee-do.

Her shoes were black and her stockings white,
And her hair shines like the silver;
Her shoes were black and her stockings white,
And her hair shines like the silver;
She has two nice bright sparking eyes,
And her hair hangs o'er her shoulders.
Chorus

"What age are you, my pretty fair maid?
What age are you, my darling?
"What age are you, my pretty fair maid?
What age are you, my darling?
She answered me quite modestly,
"I'm sixteen years next Monday morning."
Chorus

"Will you come to my Mama's house,
The moon shines bright and clearly?
Will you come to my Mama's house,
The moon shines bright and clearly?
Oh, open the door and let me in,
And Dada will not hear us."
Chorus

"When will you return again,
Or when will we get married?
When will you return again,
Or when will we get married?"
"When cockle shells make silver bells
That's the time we'll marry."
Chorus

Listen: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXSbxe-FHEQ

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 16 Jan 18 - 04:51 PM

Hi Richie, see my post above.

Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Richie
Date: 16 Jan 18 - 09:45 PM

Hi,

This Irish version dated 1926 is from the Scottish "Waukrife Mammy" tradition yet it has the "shoes and stockings" stanza from "Maid and Soldier." Here's the text from Sam Henry's Songs of the People edited by Gale Huntington, Lani Herrmann:

"I'm Seventeen 'gin Sunday" from Ballycastle District, published Oct. 9, 1926.

'Where are you going, my bonnie wee lass?
Where are you going, my honey?'
Right modestly she answered me,
'An errand for my mammy.'

CHORUS: With my roor-ri-ra, Fond a doo a da,
With my roo ri ranta mirandy.

'What's your age, my bonnie wee lass,
What's your age, my honey?'
Right modestly she answered me,
'I'm seventeen 'gin Sunday.'

'Would you tak' a man, my bonnie wee lass?
Would you tak' a man, my honey?'
Right modestly she answered me,
'If it wasny for my mammy.

She had new shoes and stockin's too,
And her buckles shone like silver,
She had a dark and rolling eye,
And her hair hanging over her shoulders.

'If I would go doon to your wee hoose,
And the moon was shining clearly,
Would you open the do[o]r and let me in,
If the oul' wife widna hear me?'

I gaed doon to her wee hoose,
And the moon was shining clearly,
She opened the do[o]r and let me in,
And the oul' wife didna hear me.

Canny slippin' aff my boots
In case that oul' thrush wid ken me,
But by my feth I wasn't long in
Till the oul' wife heard us talkin'.

Canny slippin' doon the stairs,
By the hair o' the heed she caught her
And with a great big hazel stick
She left her a well-bate daughter.

Throwing in the stool tae the fire
In case that oul' thrush wid ken me,
But by my feth I had tae tak'
The green fields tae defend me.

Come over the burn, my bonnie wee lass,
Come over the burn, my honey,
Till I get a kiss o' your sweet lips
To spite your aul', aul' mammy.

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Richie
Date: 16 Jan 18 - 09:59 PM

Hi,

This second version from Sam Henry starts off with the archaic Scottish opening and follows with the more modern stanzas of the "Seventeen Come Sunday" broadsides of the mid 1800s.

"As I Gaed ower a Whinny Knowe," sung by Andy Allen of Bridge Cottage, Coleraine; published Feb 4, 1939.

As I went ower a whinny knowe
I met a bonny lassie,
She laughed at me, I winked at her,
and oh, but I was sassie.

Wi my ru rum ra, far an ta a na,
[W]hack fal tar an addy.

Her shoes were black, her stockings white,
her buckles shone like silver,
She had a dark and rolling eye
and her hair hung ower her shoulder.

'Oh, where are you going, my bonny wee lass?
Oh, where are you going, my honey?'
Right modestly she answered me,
'Gaun a message for my mammy.'

'What is your age, my bonny wee lass?
What is your age, my honey?
Right cheerfully she answered me,
'I'll be seventeen come come Sunday.'

'Would you give me a kiss, my bonny wee lass?
Would you give me a kiss, my bonny?'
Right bashfully she answered me,
'I dare not for my mammy.'

'Oh, where do you live, my bonny wee lass?
Oh, where do you live, my honey?
Right joyfully she answered me,
'In a wee house wi' my mammy. '

So I went down to her wee house,
the moon was shining clearly;
I rapped upon her window pane
and the old wife didna hear me.

'Oh, open the door, my bonny wee lass,
come open the door, my honey,
And I will give you a kiss or two,
in spite of your old mammy. '

'Oh, soldier, would you marry me?
For now's your time or never.
For if you do not marry me ,
my heart is broke for ever.'

So now she is the soldier's wife
and sails across the brine-o,
The drum and fife is my delight,
and a merry heart is mine-o.

Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Richie
Date: 17 Jan 18 - 03:11 PM

Hi,

This version, vaguely similar to, but probably based on "Seventeen," is published by Ord, Bothy Songs and Ballads. A nearly identical one-stanza fragment is sung by Willie Mathieson (Scottish Studies) with a standard rhyming syllable chorus. Ord's text seems to be reprinted from Grieg as taken from Bell Robertson about 1906. The chorus is unusual. Where is it from- anyone?

As I Cam' Owre Yon High High Hill

As I cam' owre yon high, high hill,
I met a bonnie lassie,
She looked at me and I at her,
And wow, but she looked saucy.

CHORUS: But I love my love and I love my love,
And I love my love most dearly
My whole delight's in her bonnie face,
And I long to have her near me.

The first thing I asked of her,
What was her father's name?
But the answer she gave to me,
"Ye're a curious man to ken."
CHORUS:

The next thing I asked of her,
Did he live here about?
And the answer she gave to me,
"His peat-stack stand thereout."
CHORUS:

The next thing I asked of her,
Gin she wad take a man,
But the answer she gave to me,
"'Tis nocht but what I can."
CHORUS:

The next thing I asked of her,
Gin wad she marry me?,
But the answer she gave to me,
"If you and I agree."
CHORUS:

Then fare ye weel, mu bonnie lass,
May joy and peace be wi' ye,
And ye'll be on a better tune,
When I come back to see ye.
LAST CHORUS: But I love her yet, I love her yet,
I love her yet most dearly
My whole delight's in her bonnie face,
And I long to have her near me.

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Richie
Date: 18 Jan 18 - 12:03 AM

Hi,

Steve Gardham sent me two versions of "As I Cam' Owre Yon High High Hill." Both are named for the chorus "I Love my Love" and Steve says it seems to be a later rewrite. Ord's version is reprinted from Grieg as taken from Bell Robertson and is nearly identical.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Richie
Date: 18 Jan 18 - 02:25 PM

Hi,

Seamus Ennis recorded "When cockle shells make silver bells" AFS 09961A (AFS Number) in 1947. Paul Clayton recorded a cover of it in 1957. Kennedy got the stanzas from Ennis in the early 1950s (c.1951) and titled it, "As I Roved Out"-- the same title of the Lomax recording (see text above). I'm using Ennis' original title from 1947. After stanza 4 the stanzas have been taken from "Trooper and the Maid," Child 299. Here's the Kennedy text:

"When cockle shells make silver bells" (As I Roved Out)- sung by Seamus Ennis of Dublin as recorded on AFS 09961A, 1947. Stanzas follow the form of stanza 1 with chorus.

1 As I roved out one bright May morning
One May morning early,
As I roved out one bright May morning
One May morning early
I met a maid upon the way
She was her mama's darling
CHORUS: With me roo-rum-re. Fal-the-diddle-ra,
Star-vee-upple, al-the-di-dee, do

2. Her shoes were black and her stockin's white
And her hair shines like the silver
She has two nice bright sparkling eyes
And her hair hangs o'er her shoulder.

3 "What age are you, my pretty fair maid?
What age are you, my darling?"
She answered me quite modestly,
"I'm sixteen years next Monday morning."

4 "And will you come to my Mama's house?
The moon shines bright and clearly
O, open the door, and let me in
And Dada will not hear us."

5 She took me by the lily-white hand
And led me to the table,
There's plenty of wine for soldiers here
As far as they can take it[1].

6. She took my horse by the bridle rein
And led him to the stable
There's plenty of hay for a soldier's horse
As far as they are able.

7. And she went up and dressed the bed
And dressed it soft and easy
And I went up to tuck her in
Crying: "Lassie, are you comfortable?"

8. I slept in the house till the break of day
And in the morning early
I got up and put on my shoes
Crying: "Lassie, I must leave you!"

9 "And when till you return again,
Or when till we get married?"
"When cockle shells make silver bells
That's the time we'll marry."
________________
1. As far as they are "able," to rhyme?

Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Richie
Date: 18 Jan 18 - 07:02 PM

H,

Here's an old version from the Grieg-Duncan collection, dated c.1850 that is missing the ending.

As I Went O'er the High, High Hill- sung by Mrs. Thain of New Deer. She learned her songs from her grandmother 70 years ago (about 1850), Greig-Duncan C.

1. As I went o'er the high, high hill,
I met a bonnie lassie;
She looked at me and I at her,
And oh, but she was saucy.

CHORUS: Wi' my towrin an' a, a reedle a,
Fat di dairil ido, wi' my towrin an' a.

2. "Where are ye gaun, my bonnie lass,
Where are ye gaun, my honey,"
Right modestly she answered me,
"An eerant to my mammy."

3. "What is your name, my bonnie lass,
What is your name, my honey?"
Right modestly she answered me,
"My mammy calls me Annie."

4. How old are you, my bonnie lass,
How old are you, my honey?
Right modestly she answered me,
"I'm sixteen years come Sunday."

5. "Where do you dwell, my bonnie lass,
Where do you dwell, my honey?"
Right modestly she answered me,
"In a wee hoose wi' my mammy."

6. I'll come to your mammy's gate,
When the moon is shining clearly,
And ye will rise and lat me in,
And your mammy winna hear me.

7. He went to her mammy's gate,
When the moon was shining clearly,
And she did rise and lat me in
And her mammy didna hear her.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Richie
Date: 18 Jan 18 - 07:59 PM

Hi,

This was collected by Duncan about 1906 and appears in The Greig-Duncan Folk Song Collection. It's related to the revision, "Maid and Soldier." I'm not sure of the identity of Mrs. Grieg.

"As I Went Owre Yon High, High Hill," from Mrs. Grieg, Greig-Duncan D

1. As I went owre yon high, high hill,
I met a bonnie lassie;
She looked at me and I to her,
And oh, but she seemed saucy.

Wi' my too rin in a, a reedle a,
Fal de dae ral i do, wi' my too rin an' a.

2. Faur are ye gaun, my bonnie, bonnie lass,
Faur are ye gaun, my honey,
Right modestly she answered me,
An' erran' to my mammie.

3. Faur is your hame, my bonnie, bonnie lass,
Faur is your hame, my honey?
Right modestly she answered me,
In a wee hoose wi'my mammie.

4. Will ye gang wi' me, my bonnie, bonnie lass,
Will ye gang wi' me, my honey?"
Right modestly she answered him,
I durna for my mammie.

5. Now sodger ye maun marry me,
Now's the time or never,
Sodger ye maun marry me,
Or I am done for ever."

6. I have a wife in my ain countree,
An' how could I abuse her,
I have a lass in every place
An' a girlie when I choose her.

Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Richie
Date: 18 Jan 18 - 08:29 PM

Hi,

From The Greig-Duncan Folk Song Collection:

As I Gaed O'er yon High, High Hills- sung by Robert Reid of Kemnay, Aberdeenshire. He was a shoemaker very interested in folk music. Collected by Duncan about 1907, version E.

1. As I gaed ow'er yon high high hills
I met a bonny lassie,
She looked at me and I at her
And oh, but she was saucy.

CHORUS Wi' my touren an a, a riddle a
Fal de deral addy, wi' my toudren an a.

2. Her shoes were black and her stockings white,
Her buckles o' the silver
She had a dark and a roving eye
And her hung o'er her shoulder.

3. Where are ye gaun, my bonnny lass,
Where are ye gaun, my honey,
Right modestly she answered me,
An errand to my mammy.

4. Where do ye dwell my bonny lass,
Where do ye dwell, my honey,
Right modestly she answered me,
In wee hoose wi my mammy.

5. Will ye tak a man my bonny lass,
Will ye tak a man, my honey
Right modestly she answered me,
Just gang and ask my mammy.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Richie
Date: 18 Jan 18 - 09:30 PM

Hi,

Perhaps the best and most archaic version in the The Greig-Duncan Folk Song Collection is the one from Bell Robertson, whose mother, Jean Gall was taught songs by her mother Isobel Stephen which date to the late 1700s in Strichen. This seems to predate "Rolling Eye" c. 1850 although an earlier date can't be quantified. It's part of the Waulkrife Mammy tradition of the late 1700s.

"As I Gaed O'er yon Hech, Hech Hill," sung by Bell Roberston (1841-1922) New Pitsligo, Aberdeenshire. The Greig-Duncan Folk Song Collection, version L, collected by Greig about 1905.

1. As I gaed ow'er yon hech, hech hill,
I met a bonny lassie
She looked to me and I to her
And wow but she looked saucy.

CHORUS To my rowdum towdum, fala reedle ee,
To my rowdum tow fal dee.

2. Faur are ye gaun, my bonnnie, bonnie lass?
Faur are ye gaun, my honey?
Right modestly she did reply,
An errand to my mammy.

3. "Fat[1] is yer name, my bonnie, bonnie lass?
Fat is yer name, my honey?"
Right modestly she did reply,
"My mother calls me Nanny."

4. "Fat is yer age, my bonnie, bonnie lass?
Fat is yer age, my honey?
Right modestly she did reply,
"I'm sixteen years come Sunday."

5. "Faur do ye dwell, my bonnie, bonnie lass?
Faur do ye dwell, my honey?"
Right modestly she did reply,
"In a wee hoose wi' my mammy."

6. Will ye hae a man my bonnie, bonnie lass?
Will ye hae a man, my honey?
Right modestly she did reply,
I daurna for my mammy.

7. Will I come and see ye, my bonnie, bonnie lass?
Will I come and see ye, my honey?
Right modestly she did reply,
In't waurna for my mammy.

8. I crap in at my love's bed feet,
To see gin she was wauken,
But we hadna spoken a word or twa,
Till the aul' wife heard us talkin'.

9. She begoud to blaw the coals,
To see gin she cud ken me.
But I crap oot at my love's bed feet,
And took to the feedles[2] to screen me.

10. She's ta'en her by the hair o' the head,
And to the fleer[3] she brought her,
And wi' a piece o' a hazel rung,
She made her a well-paid[4] daughter.

11. Blink o'er the burn, my bonnie, bonnie lass,
Blink o'er the burn, my honey,
The time will come that ye sall be mine,
For a' yer waukrife mammy[5].

___________________________

1. Fat =Vat = What
2. fields
3. floor
4. well-beat/ well punished
5. In spite of your wakeful mammy

Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Richie
Date: 18 Jan 18 - 10:33 PM

Hi,

This is the last The Greig-Duncan Folk Song Collection version I'll post. It is another archaic version of "Waukrife Mammy" as taken by Rev. Duncan (editor) from his older sister, who got her ballads from her parents, a washerwoman, George Innes, and others. It likely dates back to the late 1850s or 1860s but this is a guesstimate.

As I Came Our[1] Yon High, High Hill, sung by Mrs. Margaret Gillespie (1841-1910) who was Rev. Duncan's sister, later of Glasgow. This is Greig-Duncan Folk Song Collection, version B.

As I came our yon high high hill,
I met a bonny lassie
She looked at me an' I at her
And O but she looked saucy.

CHORUS Wi' my row-dum tow-dum, tarra riddle ow,
Wi' my row-dum tarra reedle ansie.

2. Far are ye gaun, my bonnie, bonnie lass
Far are ye gaun, my honey?
Right modestly she answered me,
An errand to my mammie.

3. "Where do ye dwell, my bonnie, bonnie lass?
Where do ye dwell, my honey?"
Right modestly she answered me,
"In a wee house wi' my mammie."

4. "What is yer name, my bonnie, bonnie lass?
What is yer name, my honey?"
Right modestly she answered me,
"My mammie ca's me Annie."

5. "How old are you, my bonnie, bonnie lass?
How old are you, my Annie?"
Right modestly she answered me,
"I'm sixteen years come Sunday."

6. "Where do ye sleep, my bonnie, bonnie lass?
Where do ye dwell, my Annie?"
Right modestly she answered me,
"In a wee bed near my mammie."

7. May I come and see you my bonnie, bonnie lass?
May I come and see you, my Annie?
Right modestly she answered me,
I daurna for my mammie.

8. I gid to see you my bonnie, bonnie lass,
I gid to see my Annie,
But the auld wife she got out o' her bed,
An' came slippin' ben fu' cannie[2].

9. She took the claw to clear the clow[3]
To see gin she could ken me.
But I dang the auld wife into the fire,
And bade my heels defend me.

10. Blink our the burn, my bonnie, bonnie lass,
Blink o'er the burn, my Annie,
For ye've gotten a clod that winna cling[4],
For a' yer waukrife mammy[5].
_________________
1. poor use of slang: o'er (owre) is proper
2. slipping through the house cunningly
3. She took the tongs to clear(move) a coal (from the fireplace). Clow also is "clinker," the sound a coal makes when it drops on the brick-- moving the coal gave more light to the room
4. pregnant (literally-- the bread that will not shrink= the bread that will rise)
5. In spite of your wakeful mammy.

Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Richie
Date: 23 Jan 18 - 11:24 AM

Hi,

I'm shifting to North American versions for a while. This first version is from Bertha Hubbard Beard who was born in Alexander County, NC but lived in Wilkes County (Beech Mountain area) for most of her life. Her version, dated c. 1894, is on youtube sung when she was in her 90s:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyuRLQlYevo

The two extra stanzas are from Newell's "Pretty Little Pink" but are found in other versions (“We're Marching Down to Old Quebec”) and show the composite nature of the ballad in the US. The soldier here (a stanza from Pretty Little Pink) replaces the soldier as found in the "Maid and Soldier" reduction.

"New Orleans" sung by Bertha Hubbard Beard, recorded about 1970s. She was born in 1880 in Alexander County, NC learned from her father.

I'll put my knapsack on my back,
My rifle on my shoulder,
I'll march away to New Orleans
And there I'll be a soldier.
CHORUS: Fal la linka do, oh do oh do,
Fal la linka do, oh di dee.

How old are you my pretty little miss,
How old are you my honey?
She answered me with a modesty,
I'll be sixteen next Sunday.
CHORUS: Fal la linka do, oh do oh do,
Fal la linka do, oh di dee.

Will you marry me my pretty little miss,
How old are you my honey?
She answered me with a modesty,
I'll have to ask my Mommy.
CHORUS: Fal la linka do, oh do oh do,
Fal la linka do, oh di dee.

I'll put my knapsack on my back,
My rifle on my shoulder,
I'll march away to New Orleans
And there I'll be a soldier.
CHORUS: Fal la linka do, oh do oh do,
Fal la linka do, oh di dee.

Well the coffee grows on white oak trees,
And the river flows with brandy
The streets all lined with ten-dollar bills
And the girls as sweet as candy.
CHORUS: Fal la linka do, oh do oh do,
Fal la linka do, oh da dee.

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Richie
Date: 23 Jan 18 - 12:10 PM

Hi,

There are at least two US versions that are related to the older Scottish. This version is No. 127, I'm Seventeen Come Sunday in English Folk Songs From the Southern Appalachians by Campbell and Sharp, edited Karpeles, 1932 edition. I've titled this "Sixteen Next Sunday" which is the usual older US text. This odd mixture of British revision text has the Scottish archaic ending, with the "moon is shining clearly" stanzas from the first revision. The opening is similar to standard "Seventeen" broadsides. The "She answered me, te hee hee hee" line is common in America but apparently has its roots in Scotland as well (see Duncan Williamson's version).

Sixteen Next Sunday- Sung by Mr. GEORGE P. FRANKLIN at Stuart, Va., Aug. 26, 1918. Hexatonic (no 7th)-- Sharp A

1. As I walked out one morning in May
Just as the day was dawning,
There I spied a pretty little Miss
So early in the morning.

Te loo - rey, loo - rey, loo - rey loo,
Te loo - rey, loo - rey Ian dy.

2 Where are you going, my pretty little Miss ?
Where are you going, my honey?
She answered me, te hee hee hee,
I'm looking for my mummy.

3 How old are you, my pretty little Miss?
How old are you, my honey?
She answered me, te hee hee hee,
I'll be sixteen next Sunday."

4 If I come to your house to-night,
And the moon is shining clearly,
Will you arise and let me in,
If your mammy does not hear me?

5 I went to her house that night,
The moon was shining clearly;
She arose and let me in,
But her mammy she did hear me.

6 She took her by the hair of the head,
And to the floor she brought her,
And by the help of a hazel rod,
She made one wilful daughter.

7 So fare you well, my pretty little Miss,
So fare you well, my honey.
It's all I want to know of you,
You've got one darned old mummy.

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Richie
Date: 23 Jan 18 - 12:38 PM

Hi,

This old version is from "Folk Songs of the Catskills," page 482 by Norman Cazden, Herbert Haufrecht, Norman Studer, 1982. This is a fairly complete version related to the first revision "Maid and Soldier" with several changes. It was collected from George Edwards (1877-1949) and his cousin "Dick" Edwards. George was one of Cazden's most important informants. My brief bio follows:

George Edwards was born March 31, 1877 in Hasbrouck, a small place on the Neversink River. George's father, Jehila "Pat" Edwards was a scoopmaker by trade but worked as an unskilled laborer. Pat loved liquor and would sing in bars for free drinks. He died in 1927. George's mother Mary Lockwood was the stable influence in his life. She was a singer, mostly of hymns. She died in 1925. George's cousins were Charles Hinckley and "Dick" Edwards, both singers.

"Where Are You Going, My Pretty Fair Maid?" Sung by George Edwards (1877-1949) and his cousin "Dick" Edwards about 1948; collected by Cazden.

1. Where are you going, my pretty fair maid,
And where are you going my honey
she answered me most modestly,
I'm on an errant for my Granny."

REFRAIN: With my rosy diddler dow, fal de diddle dow,
Whack! the dooey diddle die doe -dow.

2. May I go along, my pretty fair maid
May I go along, my honey?
she answered me most modestly,
I durst not for my Granny.

3. "You come along to my Granny's house
Whne hte wind blows keen and fairly,
I will arise and I'll let you in
My granny will not hear me.

4. Then I went to her Granny's house
When the wind blew keen and fairly;
She arose and let me in.
And her Granny did not hear me. (Refrain)

5. One day I met the pretty fair maid:
"It's cold and stormy weather."
She answered me most modestly,
"I am ondone forever!" (Refrain)

6. Now I have a wife in fair London town,
And why should I disclaim her?
[But] every town that I go in.
Get a girl if I can gain her. (Refrain)

7. Oh, come all you pretty fair maids,
Rises early Monday morning:
The bugle horn is my delight
And the sailor is her darling.(Refrain)

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Lighter
Date: 23 Jan 18 - 06:36 PM

The "New Orleans" version has absorbed the opening stanza of an unrelated song now usu. known as "The Southern Soldier":

I'll take my knapsack on my back,
My rifle on my shoulder;
I'll march away to the firing line,
And kill that Yankee soldier.

The 2nd South Carolina String Band - Civil War re-enactors - do a great rendition of it.

I seem to recall an earlier version, maybe in a Lomax book, that had "Mexico" in place of New Orleans.

Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Jim Brown
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 09:46 AM

Hi Ritchie,

This is another interesting thread. If I may just make a couple of observations on the Scots words:

1) (10 Jan 09:08) The Dictionary of the Scots Language (http://www.dsl.ac.uk) gives examples for "vow" (or earlier "vou") as in interjection in Scots from the 16th century till the late 20th (as well as "wow", which also seems to be attested earlier in Scotland than elsewhere). Among the writers cited as examples for the form with "v" are Burns and Robert Fergusson. I think we can be sure that in this context there is no comic intention behind the use of "v" rather than "w". It's not like the fake Cockney in some English printed ballads. It's just a variant form that was probably more current in Lowland Scotland at the time than it is now. As you say, the Scots is tempered in this text, but it's not completely absent: we still find "ken" and "blaw", and "haul" in stanza 9 must be a misprint for "haud" (= "hold") - not to mention "wakerif", where the printer seems to think a Scots word can be made English by imposing English spelling on it. (In the same text, "done't" = "done it".)

2) (18 Jan 09:30) "Fat", "faur", etc. for "what", "where" are common North-east Scots forms, so not surprising in a song text from Aberdeenshire. However I don't think the form "vat" would be heard anywhere in Scotland. Outside the North-east, the sound would normally be "hw"

3)(18 Jan 10:33)The DSL also shows that "our" rather than "ower" or "o'er" is not just "poor use of slang". It's actually the older literary form of the word in Scots, and forms like "oure" and "oo'r" are cited from more recent literature. As far as the Greig-Duncan text is concerned, I suspect that this spelling may be used to show that the singer pronounced it "oor", and not like the English "our", but maybe someone who is more familiar with North-east pronunciation than I am can help here.

I'm glad to see you've managed to make sense of the line about the "clod that winna cling". I wish I could think of a solution for "sketches", but I can't. I wondered about it being a printer's corruption of "shekels", as slang for "money", but according to Cassell's Dictionary of Slang that just goes back to the mid 19th C. so it's far too recent -- and anyway, why would he say "money" twice?

Jim

Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 05:15 PM

Hi Jim,
Good to hear from you again.
Got any research on at the moment?
I've just been reading the spats between Chambers (1849) and Clyne (1859) and Lang's apologies for Scott/Hogg (1910). Whilst I think Chambers had a point about the age of the ballads, Clyne was right to question his attribution of the 25 to Mrs Laidlaw. They were quite likely written by her contemporaries or even later.

I've searched through Farmer and D'Urfey for 'sketches' and even the Oxford Dictionary, with no luck. I think a really good cant dictionary might help. The more likely source would be finding it in another ballad.

Whilst there must have been other printed versions and the earlier one doesn't have this verse, it was printed by Pitts, Catnach, and Morren of Edinburgh in identical forms (this verse) so this rewrite could be c1800-1820.

Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Lighter
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 06:58 PM

Steve, part of my career was spent in searching cant dictionaries.

"Sketch" rings no bells whatsoever. More important, Partridge's "Dictionary of the Underworld," which subsumes most all of the cant dictionaries since the 16th century, has nothing at all on "sketch."

Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 11:26 AM

Thanks, Jon. Looks like the best bet then is finding it in another piece of work.

Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Richie
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 02:11 PM

Hi Jim, Lighter and Steve,

Jim-- Beard's version "New Orleans" uses the "knapsack" stanza found in the songs "Going to the Mexican War" and it's also called "Marching to Quebec Town." In her version it appears to be added to show the lover was a soldier-- just as the first revision of "Seventeen" added "soldier" as her lover's status or occupation-- and that he was leaving to fight a war. This "knapsack" stanza and others are also attached to "Pretty Little Pink" which curiously may have originated with Burns (who registered the first version of "seventeen"). In the US the "How old are you" stanza is a floating one but associations may be made non-the-less.

"Pretty Little Pink" Newell, W. W., "Games and Songs of American Children," first published in 1883. No. 175, from East Tennessee.
"The manner of playing has not been obtained."

My pretty little pink, I once did think
That you and I would marry,
But now I've lost all hope of that,
I can no longer tarry.

I've got my knapsack on my back,
My musket on my shoulder,
To march away to Quebec town,
To be a gallant soldier.

Where coffee grows on a white-oak tree,
And the rivers flow with brandy,
Where the boys are like a lump of gold,
And the girls as sweet as candy.

Wells mentions: "In another version, Mexico was substituted for Quebec."

I get the "vow" for "wow" and it appears as "O" and "Oh" as well as "vow" for "wow." Greig and Duncan used Scot dialect whenever and however they wanted and the same words in a version are written differently-- which is careless.

In my continued study of US versions I'll post a new association.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Richie
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 02:21 PM

Hi,

I've made "Fly Around My Pretty Little Miss" an appendix, 9B. This association has not been examined before, although it's clear the "How old" stanza is occasionally found in versions of "Fly Around." Here are my rough notes so far:

* * * *

["Fly Around My Pretty Little Miss" is an American play-party song, fiddle tune and dance song. After careful examination, it appears that stanzas of 9B. Fly Around My Pretty Little Miss (hereafter, "Fly Around"), are similar to, or probably derived from 9. Seventeen Come Sunday and that the identifying stanza "Fly Around" is likely derived from the first lines of the Scottish ending stanza of "Seventeen" found in the "Waukrife Mammy" variants:

O, fare-thee-well, my bonnie lass,
O, fare-thee-well, my honey[],

It's equally clear that "fly around" is simply a substitute for "fare-thee well (fare-you-well)." An adaption of the Scottish "Fare thee well" verse is found in The Skillet Lickers' "Fly Around" version on Old-Time Fiddle Tunes and Songs from North Georgia' County CD-3509:

Fare-you-well my pretty little miss,
Fare-you-well my honey.
If I'm not there by the middle of the week,
You can look for me on Sunday.

In this stasnza not only are the opening lines duplicated almost exactly but the Sunday from "Seventeen Come Sunday" is also borrowed. In William Owens' 1936 book "Swing and Turn: Texas Play-Party Songs," the words "come along" have been substituted:

Oh, come along, my pretty little Miss,
Oh, come along, my honey,
Oh, come along, my pretty little Miss,
I'll marry you next Sunday.

Both examples show the evolution of the Scottish stanza in the US where it has become a play-party song, dance song and fiddle tune. Both examples are clearly based on "Seventeen" and in the next evolution a new line is added:

Fly around my pretty little miss,
Fly around my daisy--

The second line is the "standard" text found in most versions and it appears: "Fly around/Fare-you well my daisy." Another "Fly Around" song by Justus Begley in 1937 is titled "Fare You Well, My Blue-Eyed Girl" and has:

Fare you well my blue-eyed girl,
Fare you well my daisy,

A stanza of "seventeen" collected from Grammy Fish in New Hampshire in 1940 which is possibly very old shows the "daisy" line directly connected to "Seventeen":

Where are you going my pretty maid
My little blue-eyed daisy?
I am not going very far
For really I am lazy.

In most versions "daisy" is rhymed with "crazy" and becomes the standard "Fly Around" identifying stanza:

Fly around my pretty little miss,
Fly around my daisy,
Fly around, my pretty little miss,
You almost run me crazy. [Brown Collection C, 1940]

The last line frequently appears with this variation: "You almost drive me crazy." The "pretty little miss" lyrics are sometimes "Blue-Eyed Gal/Girl" as found in this NC version from the 1800s by Bascom Lamar Lunsford[]:

It's fly around my blue-eyed girl,
It's fly around my daisy,
It's fly around, my blue-eyed girl,
You've done run me crazy.

Other stanzas of "Seventeen" sometimes are included in versions of "Fly Around" confirming the association:

"How old are you, my pretty little miss,
How old are you, my honey?
She looked at me with a smiling look,
"I'll be sixteen next Sunday." [Lunsford's first verse]

The conclusion is that "Fly Around" was derived from the Scottish versions of "Seventeen" and that other verses of "Seventeen" including the "How old are You" identifying stanza have been borrowed to create a new song that is related to "Seventeen," although it is a different song and therefore is assigned as appendix 9B. Despite the popularity of "Fly around" it appears that this study may be the first to point out this association.

Stanzas of "Seventeen," especially the "How old are you" stanza, are also mixed into other dance songs made up of floating stanzas (Wheevily Wheat; Shady Grove etc) creating confusion. In the past, some songs with these generic stanzas have been titled Wheevily Wheat after Stith Thompson's Texas version published in 1916. The Lomaxes used the same title, Wheevily Wheat (2), for a collection of floating verses that includes both the Fly Around (as Run along) and "How old are you" and "Where do you live" stanzas from "Seventeen." As an example I give the Wheevily Wheat B version from "Round the Levee" edited by Stith Thompson, 1916. He comments:

Another version of "Weevily Wheat," collected by Miss Mary S. Brown of Gatesville, Texas, from Wallace Fogle, a famous play-party singer of Coryell County, runs as follows. The boys and girls line up opposite each other; the boys begin swinging at one end, and girls at the other, each swinging his or her partner.

Way down yonder in the maple swamp,
The water's deep and muddy.
There I spied my pretty little miss,
O there I spied my honey.

How old are you, my little miss,
How old are you, my honey?
She answered with a ha-ha laugh,
"I'll be sixteen next Sunday."

The higher up the cherry tree,
Riper grows the cherry,
Sooner a boy courts a girl,
Sooner they will marry,

So run along home, my pretty little miss,
Run along home, my honey,
Run along home, my pretty miss,
I'll be right there next Sunday.

Papa's gone to New York town,
Mama's gone to Dover,
Sister's worn her new slippers out
A-kicking Charley over.

Notice that "Fly Around is "run along" and that there are no stanzas specifically from "Wheevily Wheat"-- the only association with "Wheevily Wheat" is the "Charley" in the last line, who is Bonny Prince Charlie. My contention is that "Wheevily Wheat" is a separate dance or play-party song and has borrowed from both "Fly Around" and "Seventeen" but the title has become a generic title which means Thompson's Texas version was titled incorrectly. The version (Wheevily Wheat -2) from the Lomaxes in their 1934 book, "American Ballads and Folk Songs" borrows some the same stanzas from Thompson but adds other floating stanzas. "Wheevily Wheat" is not an appropriate title for either but it has, in the past, been used as a generic, floating title.

The assumption that "Fly Around" originated from Scottish versions of "Seventeen" (Waukrife) is similar to the assumption that "Careless Love" originated from the "Apron" stanzas in "Died for Love." That both "Fly Around" and "Careless Love" are Americanized southern songs derived from archaic ballad texts seems entirely reasonable. That once both "Fly Around" and "Careless Love" became established in America they lost vestiges of their British roots is also predictable. In the American evolution "Fly Around" lost the "How old are you" stanza and its other connections with "Seventeen" just as "Careless Love" was removed of its "apron" stanzas by W.C. Handy and the early jazz and blues performers. Handy however, recognized that Careless Love was a folk song, and perhaps even knew the "apron" stanzas were part of its early heritage.
* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Richie
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 02:41 PM

Hi,

Here is another composite, my title (Howard suggested the song might be ?Blackjack Daisy? but didn't know the title). From: MEMORIES OF THE HAMMONS FAMILY; PART III: MAGGIE HAMMONS PARKER by Wayne Howard. Stanza 1 is similar to Devilish Mary. Stanza 4 is similar to those from Gypsy Davy. "Coffee grows" is found in a variety of related songs including Wheevily Wheat. This song is possibly very old since the Hammons family dates back many years in West Virginia.

"Where Are You Going?" sung Maggie Hammons Parker, collected c. 1970 by Wayne Howard.

We hadn't been married but a very short time
When she said we?d better be parted,
Then she picked up her danged old duds
And down the road she started.

Where are you going, my pretty little miss,
Where are you going, my honey?
She answered me back with a kee-kee-kee,
I?m a-hunting for my money.

How old are you, my pretty little miss,
How old are you, my honey?
She answered me back with a kee-kee-kee,
I ain't sixteen 'til Sunday.

I?ll saddle a gray horse and a black,
A black so [much?] and steady[1].
I?ll ride all day and a bar all night
Till I get back with my Daisy.

Where the coffee grows on white oak trees
And the rivers floats in brandy
And oxes ears is lined with gold
And the girls is sweet as candy.

1. A black is much more steady (see Black Jack Davy)

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Richie
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 02:49 PM

Hi,

This version collected from banjo picker Rufus Crisp by RG (anyone have more info?) is posted on Mudcat Discussion Forum. The last stanza is the same floater found in Bertha Beard's version from NC.

Rocky Mountain- sung by Rufus Crisp of Allen, KY, about 1953.

1. Rocky mountain, rocky hill
Rocky hill was grassy.
There I met a purty young miss,
Lord but she was sassy.

Chorus:   Lord Lord Lord
Lord but she was sassy.

2. How old are you, my purty little miss?
How old are you, my honey?
She answered me "Lord Lord
Be seventeen come Sunday."

Chorus:   Lord Lord Lord,
Be seventeen come Sunday."

3. Come go with me my purty little miss
Come go with me, miss Nancy.
She answered me "Lord, Lord
You'd better ask my mammy."

Chorus:   Lord Lord Lord,
You'd better ask my mammy."

4. Take my knapsack on my back
Rifle on my shoulder.
Goin' down to New Orleans
Goin' to be a soldier.

Chorus:   Lord Lord Lord,
Goin' to be a soldier.

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 02:58 PM

Richie,
Have you identified the source of the 'coffee grows' stanza? It's possible it could somehow be related to the 'Big Rock Candy Mountain' family which derive from idealised British>America emigration ballads from the 17thc.

Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Richie
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 03:09 PM

Hi,

This version, Brown A, is interesting only because of the notes provided by Minnish (Minnish then married name of Sutton) about the informant. The Brown editors, Warner and others believe this to be part of "The Milkmaid" a different song with a nearly identical first line. I'll post the Warner version taken from Grammy Fish in 1940 later-- in that version some blending of text with the Milkmaid is seen.

A. 'Seventeen Come Sunday.' (Brown Collection) Sent in by Mrs. Sutton, with the following account of the singer:

"Over beyond Sugar Loaf in Henderson County there lives an old man who sings ballits. He makes whiskey, too, or did, and spent a good deal of time in Atlanta. He has a cabin to which we couldn't go with the car.

"We parked way up on a hillside and climbed down a steep winding path between laurel thickets and found him sitting by the woodpile, strumming a banjo. He said it was 'too party to waste time plowin'.' He also asked us to 'tarry till even.' . . . Not many of his songs were 'fitten to sing before the wimmern,' but he accepted us as kindred spirits and sang them anyway. . . . He sang a number of sea ballads. . . . He also called the young woman he was courting in the hope that she would consent to becoming his fourth wife his 'doney.' Sometimes he made it 'doney gal.'

"The song he liked best of those he sang was 'Seventeen Come Sunday.' When he finished singing this song he observed that 'seventeen is jist about the right age to catch a gal. Ef she's older than that she's apt to be gittin' oneasy and it comes too easy.' We asked him if the 'doney' he had now was over that. He said she was. 'When a feller gits as old and wore out as I am he near 'bout has to take him a gal off'n the cull list,' he remarked philosophically. 'I've had me three young wives, and this un I'm a-courtin' now ain't fur from the whit- leather stage. But, at that, she ort to outlast me.' "

1. 'Where are you going, my pretty maid?
Oh, where are you going, my honey?'
She answered me most modestly,
'An errand for my mommy.'

2. 'How old are you. my pretty maid?
How old are you, my honey?'
She answered me most modestly,
'I'm seventeen come Sunday.'

3. 'Where do you live, my pretty maid?
Where do you live, my honey?'
She answered me most modestly,
'In a cottage with my mommy.'

4. 'Will you marry me. my pretty maid?
Will you marry me. my honey?'
She answered me most modestly,
'If it wasn't for my mommy.'

Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Richie
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 04:52 PM

Hi Steve,

"Coffee grows" appears to be a stanza attached to Pretty Little Pink and is used in the play-party song "Four in the middle." It's also found in "Fly Around" and is a floating play-party stanza. A number of play-party songs use the "Coffee Grows" title.

I'm not aware of it being found in the UK, but I'm not sure of its origin. Seems to be late 1800s in the US south and mid-west.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Richie
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 05:03 PM

Hi,

This New England version of "Seventeen" may be very old. It's taken from "Country Dance and Song," No. 9, 1978. Also found in Warner's "Traditional American Folk Songs" and Flanders recording Track 20a: Hi Rinky Dum (Seventeen Come Sunday) - voice performance by Lena Bourne Fish at E Jaffrey (Nh.). Classification #: LAO17. Dated 1-16-1940.

Warner's version is missing the 2nd stanza-- he points out this is related to "The Milkmaid," a different song with a similar opening and courting dialogue. It is a composite of both songs only because of the ending stanza which resembles the ending of "The Milkmaid." The Brown Collection notes begin, "This song of the milkmaid, still remembered in England. . ." which is not an accurate statement and we will look at the Milkmaid later.

Hi Rinky Dum- as sung by Grammy Fish of New Hampshire in 1940.

As I was walking down the pike
One summer's morning early,
I met a charming blue-eyed lass
With her hair all crisp and curly.
CHORUS: Hi rinky dum, hi rinky dum,
Rinky, dinky, hi down.

Her dress was blue her shoes were new,
With buckles shining brightly.
Her eyes were bright as the stars above,
That shine in the heavens brightly.

"Where are you going my pretty maid
My little blue-eyed daisy?"
"I am not going very far
For really I am lazy."

"I'm in love with you my pretty maid
What is your age my honey?"
She replied with a bewitching smile
"I'll be seventeen next Sunday."

"Are you not tired of the single life
Will you be the wife of Sammy?"
She answered me regretfully
"I cannot leave my mammy."

"Yet I should like to be your wife
For you are so good looking
But I will never wash your shirts
Or never do your cooking."

"Then you shall never be my wife
For you've not learned life's lesson."
"I never asked to be your wife
'Twas you that popped the question."

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Richie
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 06:06 PM

Hi,

I looked at my notes for "Coffee Grows" (AKA "Four in the Middle"). A play party-game titled "Flour in the Middle" was known in Scotland in the late 1800s: From "Golspie- Contributions to its Folklore" by Edward Williams Byron Nicholson 1897.

"J. S. tells me that the game [Four in the Middle] is played as follows. Two girls go out of the ring and then return to the middle of it, and dance, while the others walk round. They end by each taking- another girl out, and the girls so taken out repeat the performance, the first two joining the ring in their stead.

M. S. tells me that they dance in a ring, repeating these words, 'Four-joy,' until they are tired of them, when they change to another rime. Mr. A. M. Dixon, the postmaster of Golspie, tells me that 'the soldier's joy' is the name of a country dance in which there are four in the middle, who cross hands and swing round. Sir John Stainer adds that this is the Chain in the old 'Lancers'."

The earliest collected version in the US I have is from Perrow:

COFFEE GROWS ON WHITEOAK TREES- from SONGS AND RHYMES FROM THE SOUTH by E. C. PERROW. (From Virginia; country whites; singing of Miss N. B. Graham; 1912.)

Coffee grows on white-oak trees;
Rivers all flow with brandy;
Rocks all shine with a glittering gold,
And the girls as sweet as candy.

It's an 1800s play-party song. I have no idea if the Scottish "Four in the Middle" is even the same exact song and I doubt if the "coffee grows" text is used. I do play "Soldier's Joy" which is a different tune/lyric. An example of the text in the US is:

Four in the middle and you better get around,
Four in the middle and swing.
Four in the middle and you better get around;
I love Miss Susie Brown.

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Richie
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 08:02 PM

Hi,

I was fortunate to play with Doc Watson in the 1990s and at Merle Fest. I also got to know Jean Ritchie at that time through a series of emails and phone calls.

Jean taught Doc this version of "Seventeen" which she attributes to her father. It's titled, "Where are you Going?" and appears on a live Folkways recording by Doc Watson & Jean Ritchie titled, "Jean Ritchie and Doc Watson at Folk City (Smithsonian Folkways Recordings)." The version is virtually the same as the one published by Lomax in Folk Songs of North America, 1960 which he attributed to Peggy Seeger. In 1968 Peggy Seeger recorded a different version (although I've only heard part of it) on Amorous Muse. It seems that Lomax may have the informant wrong or Peggy Seeger learned Ritchie's version which seems unlikely. In January 2003 Jean Ritchie posted the opening two stanzas and chorus here and said: "Here's the starting verses of Dad's version." Assuming her father, Balis W. Ritchie of Viper, (1869-1958) knew the song and Jean learned it-- there's no telling when that may have happened. Jean was born in 1922 so it could have been when she was a child c.1930.

The mystery remains-- why is the version attributed to Peggy Seeger by Lomax in 1960? Why are the same stanzas part of "Charlie" an arrangement by Shirley Collins? Why do the same stanzas with a varied last stanza show up as suggested text for the Monroe family version (an instrumental)? Since Doc sings "wall" flower instead of "my" flower in the third stanza (small error), why do the other versions all have "my" flower?

Richie

* * * *

Where are You Going? sung by Doc Watson and Jean Ritchie in 1963.

[guitar]

1. (Doc) "Where are you goin' my pretty little miss,
Where are you going' my daisy?"
(Jean) "O, if I don't get me a young man soon
I think I'm a-goin' crazy."

Chorus: Hi rinktum-a-dinktum-a-diddle diddle dum,
    Hi rinktum-a-dinktum-a-doody;
    Hi rinktum-a-dinktum-a-diddle-diddle dum,
    Hi rinktum-a-dinktum-a-doody.

2. (Doc) "How old are you my pretty little miss,
How old are you my honey?"
(Jean) "Well, if I don't die of a broken heart
I'll be sixteen next Sunday!"

3. (Doc) "Oh can you court my pretty little miss,
Oh can you court my flower?"
(Jean) I'll court more in a minute and a half
than you can in an hour.

4. (Doc) "Will you marry me, my pretty little miss?
Will you marry me, good looking?"
(Jean) I'll marry you but I won't do
Your washing or your cooking."

Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Richie
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 10:58 AM

Hi,

According to several sources "Seventeen" is related to "The Milkmaid" or "Dabbling in the Dew." The Brown Collection notes on "Seventeen" begin, "This song of the milkmaid, still remembered in England. . ." However misguided these notes are, a brief examination of "The Milkmaid" is in order.

In 1870 Notes and Queries (p. 243) a discussion about the origin produced some clues. An early text is found in Archaeologia Cornu-Britannica; Or, An Essay to Preserve the Ancient Cornish Language by William Pryce, 1790. Here is the link to view the original text:

https://books.google.com/books?id=k99EAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA224&dq=What+if+I+do+lay+you+down+to+the+ground&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj0rtub7

A Cornish Song

Whither are you going pretty fair maid, said he,
With your white face, and your yellow hair?
I am going to the well, sweet Sir, she said,
For strawberry leaves make maidens fair.

Shall I go with thee pretty fair maid, he said,
With your white face, and your yellow hair?
Do if you will, sweet Sir, she said,
For strawberry leaves make maidens fair.

What if I do lay you down on the ground,
With your white face, and your yellow hair?
I will rise up again, sweet Sir, she said,
For strawberry leaves make maidens fair.

What if I do bring you with child,
With your white face, and your yellow hair?
I will bear it, sweet Sir, she said,
For strawberry leaves make maidens fair.

Who will you have for father for your child,
With your white face, and your yellow hair?
You shall be his father, sweet Sir, she said,
For strawberry leaves make maidens fair.

What shall you do for whittles for you child,
With your white face, and your yellow hair?
His father shall be a taylor, sweet Sir, she said,
For strawberry leaves make maidens fair.

The note at the bottom of the page by Thomas Tonkin dates the song to 1698: "This was the first song that ever I heard in Cornwall; it was sung at Carcka, in 1698, by one Chygwyn, brother-in- law to Mr. Jonn Grose, of Penzance. (Tonkin)"

A few Scottish stanzas were provided by Robert Burns in his Reliques. His notes and stanzas follow:

It appears evident to me that Oswald composed his "Roslin Castle" on the modulation of this air. In the second part of Oswald's, in the three first (p. 7) bars, he has either hit on a wonderful similarity to, or else he has entirely borrowed the three first bars of the older air; and the close of both times is almost exactly the same. The old verses to which it was sung, when I took down the notes from a country girl's voice, had no great merit. The following is a specimen:

There was a pretty May, and a-milkin' she went,
Wi' her red, rosy cheeks and her coal-black hair :
And she has met a young man a-comin' o'er the bent;
With a double and adieu to thee fair May.

O whare are ye goin', my ain pretty May,
Wi' thy red, rosy cheeks and thy coal-black hair ;
Unto the yowes a-milkin', kind Sir, she says,
With a double and adieu to thee fair May.

What if I gang alang wi' thee, my ain pretty May,
Wi' thy red, rosy cheeks and thy coal black hair ;
Wad I bo ought the warre o' that, kind Sir, she says.
With a double and adieu to thee fair May.

To view online: https://books.google.com/books?id=XiJMAAAAcAAJ&pg=RA1-PA345&dq=%22It+appears+evident+to+me+that+Oswald+composed%22&hl=en&sa=X&ve

* * * *

Two popular versions that were based on, or similar to, these early songs emerged: "Dabbling in the Dew" and "The Milkmaid." I give the first two stanzas of "Dabbling in the Dew" from "Folk Songs from Somerset" edited by Cecil James Sharp, Charles Latimer Marson, 1905:

Dabbling in the Dew

O Where are you going to, my pretty little dear,
With your red, rosie cheeks, and your coal black hair?
I'm going a-milking, kind sir, she answered me,
And it's dabbling in the dew makes the milk-maids fair.

Suppose I were to clothe you, my pretty little dear,
In a green silken gown and the amethyst rare?
O no sir, O no sir, kind sir, she answered me,
For it's dabbling in the dew makes the milk-maids fair.

A second parallel variant known in the early 1800s is The Milkmaid. One source attributes it to composer Henry Purcell. There are various versions and it is well-known as a nursery rhyme:

The Milkmaid

"Where are you going, my pretty maid?"
"I'm going a-milking, sir," she said,
"Sir," she said, "sir," she said;
"I'm going a-milking, sir," she said.

"May I go with you, my pretty maid?"        
"You're kindly welcome, sir," she said.        
"Sir," she said, "sir," she said;
"You're kindly welcome, sir," she said.

"What is your father, my pretty maid?"              
"My father's a farmer, sir," she said.
"Sir," she said, etc.

"What is your fortune, my pretty maid?"
"My face is my fortune, sir," she said,
"Sir," she said, etc.

"Then I won't marry you my pretty maid."
"Nobody asked you, sir," she said,
"Sir," she said, etc.

"Then I must leave you, my pretty maid."
"The sooner the better, sir," she said,
"Sir," she said, etc.

The obvious similarity with "Seventeen" is apparent since both are courting dialogue songs where a man meets a pretty fair maid and asks her a series of questions in order to seduce/marry her. The opening "Where are you going, my pretty maid?" line is held in common. They are however, different songs.

In Grammy Fish's version (see above) her last stanza is obviously derived from the Milkmaid:

"Then you shall never be my wife
For you've not learned life's lesson."
"I never asked to be your wife
'Twas you that popped the question."

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 11:09 AM

Hi Richie
I don't really see any reason to relate these 3 songs or even think that one might have inspired another. For all they have in common is very likely down to coincidence. I don't think I have those early versions of 'Rolling in the Dew' so thanks for that.

Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Richie
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 11:19 AM

Hi,

TY Steve. It needs to be clear that they are different songs. A number of song notes have called "Seventeen" as quoted above, "This song of the milkmaid," implying that the two songs are related-- they aren't.

At least we need to know what "Dabbling in the Dew" and "The Milkmaid" are. And if you look at Grammy Fish's last stanza of Seventeen (above) it's clearly taken from an end stanza of the Milkmaid- albeit reworded.

So there are composites---

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 01:07 PM

Yes there are often borrowings/composites/hybrids where songs are on a similar theme, but as you say we need to be clear each song has its own origin, evolution and autonomy.

Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: r.padgett
Date: 27 Jan 18 - 12:06 PM

a nice evolutionary tale ~

"Her shoes were black her stockings white and the buckles shone like silver ~ she had a black/dark and a roving eye and her hair hung o'oer shoulders"

"How old are you me fair pretty maid, how old are you me honey ~ she answered me quite cheerfully ~ I am 17 come Sunday"

"Will you marry me me fair pretty maid~~~~~~ I dare not for me Mammy~~"

"And now she is a soldiers wife and sails across the briney O ~ A fife and drum is my delight and a married man is mine O!!

is my version probably from Ewan McColl (abridged)

Ray

Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 27 Jan 18 - 12:57 PM

Yes, Ray, probably a composite. Its whole is quite close to the Coppers' version but the closest I have for the last verse is in Sam Henry's collection.

Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Jan 18 - 10:58 PM

Hi,

I've had a brief look at the Carpenter Collection where it's titled "Bonnie Lassie" (Seventeen Come Sunday). There are 15 versions, some of them fragments -- I haven't listened to them all yet, a number are transcribed. The following is from the Scottish Waukrife Mammy tradition:

Bonnie Lassie- sung by William Still of Waterside, Cuminestown, Scotland (Carpenter Collection 1929-1935)

As I went o'er yon hich, hich hill,
I met a bonnie lassie
She looked at me and I at her
An' O bit she wis sassy.

CHORUS: To my riggle dum I diggie dum I derry diddle aye,
To my riggle dum I diggie dum I derry.

Far are ye gaun my pretty pretty girl,
Far are ye gaun my honey
Richt modestly she answered me
An errant tae my mommie.

Fat is yer name, my bonnie, bonnie lass,
Fat is yer name my honey,
Richt modestly she answered me
My mommie ca's me Annie.

Fat is yer age, my bonnie, bonnie lass
Fat is yer name my honey,
Richt modestly she answered me,
I'm achteen yers come Sunday.

It's I went tae my Annie's door,
Tae see gin she was wakin',
We's barely spoken bit twa three words
Fin the auld wife heard us talkin'.

The auld wife rose tae blaw the coals,
Tae see gin she could ken 'im
An' he kicked teh auld wife intae the fire
An' took tae the fields tae screen him.

The auld wife took her by the hair o' the heid,
In the middle o' the fleer she brocht her,
And wis a piece o' guid hissle rung
An' she made her a weel paid daughter.

O mither dear I pray forbear,
Or then ye will devour me,
I widna been guilty 'o this crime,
Gin ye hadna deen't afore me.

Blink o'er the burn my bonnie, bonnie lass
Blink o'er the burn my honey
An' I'll amk ye my wedded wife
In spite o' yer wakative mammie.

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Richie
Date: 29 Jan 18 - 12:11 AM

Hi,

Here's a version from Carpenter Collection with the "Maid and Soldier" text (no ending) and the "With my rollin' eye" chorus.

Bonnie Lassie (With My Rolling Eye) sung by Peter Christie, 21 years old of Shorehead, Stonehaven, Scotland (Carpenter 1929-1936)

As I was walking up the street,
I met a bonnie lassie,
She looked to me and I to her,
And O but she was sassy.

CHORUS: Wi' my rollin' eye, fol-de do or die
Rolli-mi-nairin-aido, wi' my rollin' eye.

Where are ye[1] going, my gay bonny lass,
Where are ye going, my honey?
Right modestly she answered me,
An errand to my mammy.

How old are ye, my gay bonny lass,
How old are ye, my honey?
Right modestly she answered me,
I'm sixteen years come Sunday.

Will ye gie me a kiss, my gay bonny lass,
Will ye gie me a kiss, my honey?
Right modestly she answered me,
I dare na for my mommie.

You'll come at night when the moon shines bright[1],
And knock at my bed window
I'll open the door and let you in
And my mommie will na hear you.

He came at night when the moon shone bright[1]
And knocked at her bed window
She opened the door and let him in
And her mommie did na hear them.
__________________________

1. wording for this line unconventional, usually subdivided; the standard second line is "When the moon shines bright and clearly,"

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Richie
Date: 31 Jan 18 - 07:09 AM

Hi,

From James Madison Carpenter Collection MS, JMC/1/10/11, Cylinder 012, 08:58 comes this version with the title "My mommie calls me Annie" which is named after a stanza that is missing!! I've added an approximation of the stanza in brackets.

The version begins with standard Wulkrife Mammy text but then goes into the "Maid and Soldier"revision but is missing the ending.

Mommie Ca's Me Annie- sung by Alex Robb, New Deer, Aberdeenshire Scotland (Carpenter Collection 1929-1935). Robb was a school caretake at New Deer who got many of his songs while a boy in farm service from his employer.

As I went ower yon high, high hill,
I met a bonny lassie
She looked to me and I to her
And Oh bit she was sassy.

CHORUS: Wi' my turrin innal, ah reedle-ah,
Folde deril- aido.

Fare ye gang my bonny lassie,
Fare ye gang my honey
Right modestly she answered me
A yerrin [errand] to my mommie.

[Fat is yer name, my bonnie, lass,
Fat is yer name my honey,
Right modestly she answered me
My mommie ca's me Annie.]

Fare di ye bide my bonny lass
Fare di ye bide my honey,
Right modestly she answered me,
In a wee hoose wi' my mommie.

I will come to yourn windi,
When the moon is shinin' clearly,
And ee will rise and lat me in,
Your mommie will na hear me.

He did come to her windi,
When the moon was shinin' clearly,
And she did rise and lat him in,
And her mommie did na hear him.

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: r.padgett
Date: 31 Jan 18 - 07:22 AM

OK obvious question ~ "Fat" is your name ~ I doubt this as a surname unless you know otherwise ~ is this Scottish for something?

Fare? where?? mebbe

Ray

Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Snuffy
Date: 31 Jan 18 - 01:01 PM

Where English words have a "Wh", in North-East Scotland it is pronounced as "F"

Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: r.padgett
Date: 01 Feb 18 - 04:18 AM

O What then ~ silly me ~

Ray

Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Richie
Date: 01 Feb 18 - 06:22 PM

Hi,

Most of the English versions are from the third revision (Seventeen broadside 1840). This one, from Henry Hammond Manuscript Collection (HAM/2/1/9), is a version of the first revision, Maid and Soldier (missing opening and corrupt ending).

Seventeen Come Sunday - Amos Ash of Combe Florey, Somerset, May 1905.

1. Her boots shines black her stocking white,
And her buckles shines like silver,
She had a dark and roving eye,
Her hair hung down her shoulder.
CHORUS: with my rum lum de fal the diddle de,
Her hair hung down her shoulder.

2. Where are you going, my pretty fair maid
How far are you going my honey?
She answered me quite cheerfully,
I'm an errant for my mammy.
CHORUS: with my rum lum de fal the diddle de
I'm an errant for my mammy.

3. How old are you, my pretty maid?
How old are you, my honey?"
She answered me quite cheerfully:
"Oh I'm seventeen come next Sunday morning."
CHORUS: with my rum lum de fal the diddle de
"Oh I'm seventeen come next Sunday morning."

4. If you come down to my mammy's house.
When the moon shines bright and clearly,
If you come down, I will let you in,
And my mammy shall not hear me.
CHORUS: with my rum lum de fal the diddle de
And my mammy shall not hear me.

5. Oh I went unto her mammy's house.
When the moon shines bright and clearly,
Oh she came down and let me in,
And her mammy did not hear me.
CHORUS: with my rum lum de fal the diddle de
And her mammy did not hear me.

6. Oh! do you hear a big, big drum
And the clarinets sound so merrily
The buglehorn was my delight,
And the clarinet was my darling.
CHORUS: with my rum lum de fal the diddle de
And the clarinet was my darling.

* * * *
Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Richie
Date: 01 Feb 18 - 09:34 PM

Hi,

This is from James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/11/165, Disc Side 159, 01:43. It is apparently the last Waukrife Mammy variant in the Carpenter collection. I added stanza 5 from the Still version but there is another stanza missing before that. Important is stanza 7, not found in other versions.

Weel Paid Dochter - sung by William Farquhar of Brownhill, Bruxie Scotland (Carpenter Collection 1929-1935)

1. As I went o'er yon high, high hill,
I met a bonnie lassie
She looked at me and I at her
And O but she was sassy.

CHORUS: Tum a riggle dum a diggie dum a darly diddle aye,
Tum a riggle dum a diggie dum a darie.

2. Where are ye going my pretty pretty girl,
Where are ye going my honey?
Right modestly she answered me
An errand tae my mammie.

3. What is your age, my bonnie, bonnie lass
What is your name my honey,
Right modestly she answered me,
I'm achteen yers come Sunday.

4. What is your name, my bonnie, bonnie lass,
What is your name my honey,
Richt modestly she answered me
My mammy calls me Annie.

5. [It's I went tae my Annie's door,
Tae see gin she was wakin',
We's barely spoken bit twa, three words
When the auld wife heard us talkin'.]

6. The auld wife rose tae blow the coals,
Tae see gin she could ken me,
But I kicked the auld wife into the fire
And took tae the fields tae screen me.

7. Quo the auld wife I am a' brunt[1],
An' yet I didna ken him,
And a' for my dochter an' she shall cach't
An' then tae the wiles between them.

8. Sae she's ta'en her by the hair o' the heid,
An' in the middle o' the fleer she brocht her,
An' wis a piece o' guide hazel rung
She's made her a weel paid dochter.

9. O mother dear, I pray forbear,
Or then ye will devour me,
I'd never been guilty 'o sican[2] a crime,
Gin ye hadna deen the same afore me.
______________________

1. Said the old wife I am all burnt,
2. such

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Richie
Date: 06 Feb 18 - 06:58 PM

Hi,

Here are my A versions, there are actually 12 different versions, Af is a duplicate (published in a Falkirk chapbook) of Aa. Several of the later versions have borrowed from the first revision B, "Maid and Soldier." Four are from Carpenter and one from Sam Henry.

A. Waukrife Mammy ("As I gaed o'er the Highland hills") c.1750
   a. "Wakerife Mammy," dated c.1750 from Thomas Lyle's 1827 book "Ancient Ballads and Songs: Chiefly from Tradition, Manuscripts, and Scarce Works."
   b. "Waukrife Minnie" taken by Robert Burns from Martha Crosbie of Nithdale circa 1788. First published from a copy in Johnson's Musical Museum in Select Scottish Songs, Ancient and Modern, Volume 2 by Robert Hartley Cromek, 1810.
   c. "The Lassie Lost Her Maidenhead a' for Her Waukrif Mammie" dated 1795 (Edinburgh?) published in "Four Excellent New Songs: The Lassie Lost Her Maidenhead a' for Her Waukrif Mammie. Johnie Cope. Rinorden, Or The Mountains High The General Toast. Entered and Licenced."
   d. "Waukrife Minnie," published 1825 but older; two stanzas given by Alan Cunningham, supposedly from tradition in "The Songs of Scotland, Ancient and Modern" Volume 2, p. 244-245. One stanza with slight variation appears in Select Scottish Songs, Ancient and Modern, Volume 2 by Robert Hartley Cromek, 1810.
   e. "The Well Pay't Dochter," collected in Lochwinioch Scotland from William Orr, dated c.1829. From Andrew Crawfurd's Collection of Ballads and Songs: edited E. B. Lyle; Edinburgh: Scottish Text Society, 1975
   f. "The Waukrife Mammy" dated 1830 from a Scottish Chapbook (no publisher given) Printed for the booksellers; Falkirk. From "Two Old Songs- The Perjured Maid, The Waukrife Mammy." See Aa.
   g. "My Rolling Eye" dated c. 1850. Taken from Alexander Smith of Perthshire by Robert Ford. Published in Vagabond Songs and Ballads of Scotland: With Many Old and Familiar Melodies edited by Robert Ford, 1899.
   h. "As I Gaed O'er yon Hech, Hech Hill," sung by Bell Roberston (1841-1922) of New Pitsligo, Aberdeenshire. The Greig-Duncan Folk Song Collection, version L. Collected in c.1906 but much older, dated c.1860.
   i. "As I Came Our[O'er] yon High, High Hill," sung by Mrs. Margaret Gillespie (1841-1910) later of Glasgow. The Greig-Duncan Folk Song Collection, version B, collected by Rev. Duncan from his sister in the early 1900s, dated c.1870 but older.
   j. "I'm Seventeen 'gin Sunday" from Ballycastle District, published Oct. 9, 1926, Henry A.
   k. "Bonnie Lassie," sung c. 1930 by William Still of Waterside, Cuminestown, Scotland (Carpenter Collection 1929-1935).
   l. "Weel Paid Dochter," sung by William Farquhar of Brownhill, Bruxie Scotland about 1929 from the James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/11/165, Disc Side 159, 01:43
   m. "Blink O'er the Burn," sung by Alexander Troup (1851-1939), Damside, Foudland, by Insch, Aberdeenshire Scotland c. 1929; Carpenter Collection.

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Richie
Date: 06 Feb 18 - 08:29 PM

Hi,

Here's a version from down under sung by Sally Sloane in 1956.

Listen: https://nla.gov.au/nla.obj-214812725/listen

'My Pretty Little Maid' sung by Sally Sloane (1894-1982). Recorded by John Meredith at Teralba, Australia on 16 June and 13 October, 1956.

1. Where are you going my pretty little maid,
Where are you going my honey?
Where are you going my pretty little maid,
Where are you going my honey?
She answered him quite modestly,
On erran' for my mommie.

CHORUS (after each verse): With my tu-rum ra, fal a diddle da,
Right fal-la-diddle dolly die, do.

2. How old are you my pretty little girl,
How old are you my honey, [repeat as before]
She answered him quite modestly,
I'm seventeen come Sunday.

3. Will you marry me, my pretty little girl,
will you marry me, my honey?
She answered him quite modestly,
"I dare not for my Mommie."

4. Will come unto my Mama's house,
When the moon shines bright and clearly?
O, I'll rise up and let you in,
And the auld woman will not hear me.

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Richie
Date: 11 Feb 18 - 08:28 PM

Hi,

I have three Scottish children's song versions. One is from Mudcat and it's in the DT however, I can find no source for it other than the poster says it was collected in 1964. Anyone know more about this?

Whaur Are Ye Gaun, My Bonnie Wee Lass?

    1.
    Whaur are ye gaun, ma bonnie wee lass,
       Whaur are ye gaun, ma dearie?
    Whaur are ye gaun, ma bonnie wee lass?
       A message for ma mammie.

    Will I come wi you, ma bonnie wee lass,
       Will I come wi you, ma dearie?
    Will I come wi you, ma bonnie wee lass?
       I'll hae to ask ma mammie.

    What did she say, ma bonnie wee lass,
       What did she say, ma dearie?
    What did she say, ma bonnie wee lass?
       She'll tell me come next Sunday.

    Will you marry me, ma bonnie wee lass,
       Will you marry me, ma dearie?
    Will you marry me, ma bonnie wee lass,
       And never heed your mammie?

    I'll marry you, ma bonnie wee lad,
       I'll marry you, ma dearie,
    I'll marry you, ma bonnie wee lad,
       But I'll hae to bring ma mammie.

Richie (also posted to another thread)

Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Richie
Date: 12 Feb 18 - 07:37 PM

Hi,

Here's a children's play-party version from Texas. From William Owens' 1936 book "Swing and Turn: Texas Play-Party Songs." The game instructions follow,

"As all sing the first verse they move to the middle of the circle and then outward. They do this movement twice for the four phrases of the song. On the second stanza the boys swing each girl right and left, going around the circle until they reach their original partners."

1. Oh, come along, my pretty little Miss,
Oh, come along, my honey,
Oh, come along, my pretty little Miss,
I'll marry you next Sunday.

2. Oh, come along, my pretty little Miss,
Oh, come along, my honey,
Oh, come along, my pretty little Miss,
I won't be home 'till Monday.

3. How old are you, my pretty little Miss,
How old are you, my honey?
How old are you, my pretty little Miss,
I'll marry you next Sunday.
* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Richie
Date: 12 Feb 18 - 07:59 PM

Hi,

This fragment by William Gilkie is from Maritime Folk Songs, Creighton/Peacock, 1961. This is one of several versions with the rare "come and try me" stanza.

I'll Be Seventeen Come Sunday- sung by William Gilkie, Sambro Halifax Co NS Sept. 19, 1949.

1 "Oh how old are you, my pretty fair maid,
How old are you, my honey?"
Quite modestly she answered me,
"I'll be sixteen come Sunday."

CHORUS: With my rue dummin ey, fallo the diddle ey,
Right fol dol diddle ear-o.

2. "Oh you are too young, my pretty fair maid
You are too young to marry."
Quite modestly she answered me,
'You better come in and try me."

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Richie
Date: 13 Feb 18 - 12:38 PM

Hi,

I'm going to make several long posts of my headnotes. They are in a rough draft stage but won't change much. The entire headnotes, nearly completed, are here: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/9-seventeen-come-sunday.aspx

Part 1 (footnotes at the end):

["Seventeen Come Sunday" is a series of ballads and songs[1] about a mature man or soldier who spies a young "pretty maid" or "bonny lass" and asks her a series of questions to seduce her. One question he asks is "How old are you, my pretty maid/bonnie lass?" to which she replies "I'm seventeen come Sunday." Although her age varies (fifteen/sixteen etc.), this question and answer represents the identifying stanza of these ballads-- hereafter called the "seventeen come Sunday" stanza and also the "How old" (How old are you?) stanza. The identifying stanza is not always present and usually follows the "Where are you going/errand for my mammy" stanza. The "Seventeen Come Sunday" ballads were very popular in The British Isles and also found in North America and Australia. The "seventeen come Sunday" stanza has become a ballad commonplace in the US and is found in a variety of related songs. Two songs that are similar to, or derived from "Seventeen," 9A. I Love my Love (Owre Yon High, High Hill) and 9B. Fly Around My Pretty Little Miss , have been added as appendices.

The earliest record of the "seventeen come Sunday" songs comes from Scotland in the first half the 1700s[2]. My A versions, Aa-An, have a variety of titles but all feature the Waukrife Mammy(Wakeful Mother) who awakens and finds her young daughter in bed with a man. The wakeful mother blows the fire or take a coal from the fire to illuminate the room and tries identify her daughter's lover. He creeps from the bed, pushes her mother away(into the fire) and runs outside where he hides in a field. The mother takes her daughter by the hair to the floor and with a hickory switch (stick) beats her and she is now a "weel-paid dochter" (well-punished daughter). The "seventeen come Sunday" identifying stanza (How old are you?) is present in Ac, Ae and Ag-An. According to Thomas Lyle[3], the Scottish variants of Waukrife Mammy date before Robert Burns time in both Aryshire and Renfrewshire. Since Burns was born in 1759, ascribing a date of c.1750 for Aa, Wakerife Mammy seems to be conservative since Burns and Cunningham both call it "an old song[4]." Lyle indicates in his notes (Ancient Ballads and Songs, 1827) that the famous version, Waukrife Minnie from the pen of Robert Burns (my Ab) and the additional stanzas from Alan Cunningham (my Ad) are both "faulty." Lyle provides no explanation why Burns and Cunningham stanzas are "faulty" although several of Burns's stanzas are amended. Lyle names no informants and his version would seem to be an arrangement of standard stanzas sung "chiefly from tradition." Aa is given now in full from Ancient Ballads and Songs: Chiefly from Tradition, Manuscripts, and Scarce Works (edited by Thomas Lyle):

THE WAKERIFE MAMMY.

1. As I gaed o'er the Highland hills,
I met a bonnie lassie;
Wha' look'd at me, and I at her,
And O but she was saucy.

2. Whare are ye gaun, my bonnie lass,
Whare are ye gaun, my lammy;
Right saucily she answer'd me,
An errand to my mammy.

3. An' whare live ye, my bonnie lass,
Whare do ye won, my lammy;
Right modestly she answer'd me,
In a wee cot wi' my mammy.

4. Will ye tak' me to your wee house,
I'm far frae hame, my lammy;
Wi' a leer o' her eye, she answer'd me,
   I darna for my mammy.

5. But I fore up the glen at e'en,
To see this bonnie lassie;
And lang before the gray morn cam',
She wasna' half sae saucie.

6. O weary fa' the wakerife cock,
An' the fumart lay his crawing;
He wauken'd the auld wife frae her rest,
A wee blink or the dawing.

7. Wha straught began to blaw the coal,
To see gif she could ken me;
But I crap out from whare I lay,
And took the fields to skreen me.

8. She took her by the hair o' the head,
As frae the spence she brought her,
An' wi' a gude green hazel wand,
   She's made her a weel paid dochter.

9. Now fare thee weel, my bonnie lass,
An fare thee weel, my lammy,
Tho' thou has a gay, an' a weel-far't face,
Yet thou has a wakerife mammy.

Following are Lyle's notes which are given in full[5]: "The 'Wakerife mammy,' is here noted down with some trifling corrections, from the west country set of the Ballad, where its day of popularity amongst the peasantry, was equal, at least, with that of the foregoing one. Burns says that he picked up a version of it from a country girl's singing in Nithsdale, and that he never either met with the song or the air to which it is sung elsewhere in Scotland. We marvel not a little at this, after considering how very common the Ballad has been over the shires of Ayr and Renfrew, both before and since the Poet's day; so common, indeed, is it still, that we have had some demurings about inserting it here at all. The air is a very pretty one, with two lines of a nonsensical chorus, sung after each stanza, which certainly merits other verses to be adapted for it, when like many other wanderers of the day, it then might again be received into favour. Burns's copy, in Johnston's Museum, differs a good deal from the foregoing one, besides wanting the commencing stanza. Cunningham's set of words in the second volume of his 'Songs of Scotland,' is equally faulty. "

In Aa, the "Wakerife Mammy" the action is described in first person by a gentleman[6] who meets a bonny lass as he's going over the Highland hills. He then poses a number of questions to the lass including two of these fundamental questions: 1) Where are you going? 2) Where do you live? 3) How old are you? That evening he goes to her mammy's house, quietly enters and gets in bed with the lass-- noting that after their lovemaking she "wasn't half as saucy." The cock crows arousing her wakeful mother who enters the room and blows on the coals of the fire (or takes a coal from the fire) to see if she knows her daughter's lover. He creeps out of the bed, pushes her mammy towards (into) the fire and runs outside where the fields hide him. The mother takes the daughter by the hair to the floor and with a hickory switch makes her a well-punished (well beaten) daughter. In Ac and Al her daughter begs her mammy to "hold her hand" and stop the beating, pointing out her mammy had done the same thing before. From the field her lover bids her "fare-thee-well" saying she has a fair face but a wakeful mother.

Although Lyle presumes that his version (Aa) is a correct version, it is missing several stanzas, most importantly the "How old are you" stanza known as the "seventeen come Sunday" stanza. Whether the "seventeen come Sunday" stanza is part of the ur-ballad[7] or was added later is a matter of speculation. Since its existence is confirmed by Ac (1795), Ae, and Ag-An, it would be safe to presume that it is an original stanza[8]. Other questions such as "Will you take a man?" may have been added by singers and ballad writers because by 1795, a hackneyed print version (Ac) appeared that included both questions[9]. Also missing in Lyle's "correct" version is a standard short chorus which by the mid-1800s included the chorus variant, "with a rolling eye."

In the early versions of Waukrife Mammy there's no indication that her lover is a soldier yet by the mid-1800s the "Soldier Will you marry me?" stanza has been attached (see: "My Rolling Eye," Ford, c. 1850). The addition of the soldier comes from the first extant revision usually titled "Maid and Soldier" (see B, covered later)-- showing a mixture of A and B.

The only duplication in the A versions is a nearly identical version to Lyle's Aa which is my Af, "The Waukrife Mammy," dated 1830 from a Scottish chapbook (no publisher given) printed in Falkirk from the chapbook, "Two Old Songs- The Perjured Maid, The Waukrife Mammy (view at http://digital.tcl.sc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/rbc/id/2273/rec/2). The circa 1830 date (it's also dated 1840 at the same site) indicates it has probably been reprinted from Lyle's 1827 version.

Ab, is the famous version from Robert Burns who gave the source as "a country girl in Nithsdale." The identity of the "country girl" is revealed in Cromek's " Remains of Nithsdale and Galloway Song ," 1810, which has a song, "Oh who is this under my window," that was also taken from the same informant. The first half of the headnote is:

This old song is taken down from the singing of Martha Crosbie, from whose recitation Burns wrote down the song of "The Waukrife Minnie."

According to Cunningham, Martha Crosbie also entertained young Alan Cunningham at his father's house[10]. Although Cunningham does not mention her as Burns' source in 1825, he says, " I have heard it often sung in my youth, and sung with curious and numerous variations ." Cunningham adds " I believe it to be a very old song ."

According to Cunningham[11], Burns text was reworked by the Bard: " I am of opinion, nevertheless, that a large portion of it is the work of Burns himself. That several of the verses have been amended by him I have not the least doubt. It may gratify some to know that he lessened the indelicacy without impairing the wit of the song ."

Cunningham's allegation that Burn expurgated the ballad because of its content is probably not accurate. The ballad, which is about the seduction of a young lass has always been regarded as somewhat bawdy and Burns stanzas are also. It's clear that Burns took down the stanzas he heard and edited them-- but not to expurgate them. However, aside from the the obvious bawdy nature of a ballad about the seduction of a young virgin by an older man whose mother wakes and finds them in bed-- explicit bawdy details about the sex act itself are not found-- they are only implied. When James Reeves included a version of Seventeen Come Sunday in his 1958 book, The Idiom of the People, he speculated, " The original of this song, whatever it was, shocked all other editors, from the eighteenth century onwards. " It now seems with 15 versions of A to consider (Aa-An) that the original is known. With the title of Ac is " The Lassie Lost Her Maidenhead a' for Her Waukrif Mammie " (the lass lost her virginity despite her wakeful mother), it's clear that the Edinburgh publisher was not concerned about the appearance of impropriety. It is true that Patrick Weston Joyce, Baring-Gould and Cecil Sharp changed or edited their published texts.

Here is Burns' text[12] taken from Martha Crosbie, a carder and spinner of wool from Nithsdale, circa 1788. His brief comment on the ballad follows:

I PICKED up this old song and tune from a country girl in Nithsdale. I never met with it elsewhere in Scotland:

A Waukrife Minnie

1. Whare are you gaun, my bonnie lass?
Whare are you gaun, my hinnie?
She answered me right saucilie?
An errand for my minnie.

2. O, whare live ye, my bonnie lass?
O, where live ye, my hinnie?
By yon burn-side, gin ye maun ken,
In a wee house wi' my minnie.

3. But I foor up the glen at e'en,
To see my bonnie lassie;
And lang before the grey morn cam'
She was na hauf sae saucie.

4. O, weary fa? the waukrife cock,
And the foumart lay his crawin'!
He waukened the auld wife frae her sleep,
A wee blink or the dawin.

5. An angry wife I wat she raise,
And o'er the bed she brought her;
And with a mickle hazel rung
She made her a weel-payed dochter.

6. O, fare thee weel, my bonnie lass,
O, fare thee weel, my hinnie:
Thou art a gay and a bonnie lass,
But thou hast a waukrife minnie.

This is a simple translation which may help the reader, not versed in Scot dialect, to better understand the text. "Mammy" is obviously "mother" and "bonnie" is "pretty":

1. "Where are you going, my bonnie lass?
Where are you going, my honey?"
She answered me right saucily: -
"An errand for my mammy."

2. "O, where live you, my bonnie lass?
O, where live you, my honey?"
"By yon stream side, if you must know,
In a little house with my mammy."

3. But I went up the glen at evening,
To see my bonnie lassie,
And long before the grey morn came,
She was not half so saucy."

4. "O, woe befall the wakeful cock,
And the polecat stop his crowing!
He awakened the old woman from her sleep,
A little bit before the dawning."

5. An angry wife I know she rose,
And out of the bed she brought her,
And with a large hazel switch,
She made her a well-punished daughter.

6. "O, fare-thee-well, my bonnie lass!
O, fare-thee-well, my honey!
You are a gay and a bonnie lass,
But you have a wakeful mammy!"

The text from Burns when compared to Lyle's text shows that Burns, in fact, didn't do many revisions (see Cunningham's comments above). Line 3 of stanza 2, and lines 1 and 2 of stanza 5 appear to be the recreations-- just 3 lines out of 24. Burns' version is incomplete having 6 stanzas compared to the 9 stanzas given by Lyle and the 11 stanzas found in the 1795 print. Stanzas 3 and 4 do not correspond to the majority of versions but are corroborated by Lyle. The possibility that Lyle added stanzas to Burns version exists but considering Lyle's notes on his version and his corrections of several of Burns stanzas-- this is doubtful. In 1825 two additional stanzas, my Ad, were given by Alan Cunningham, supposedly from tradition[13] in " The Songs of Scotland, Ancient and Modern " Volume 2, p. 244-245. One of the stanzas with slight variation appears first in Select Scottish Songs, Ancient and Modern , Volume 2 by Robert Hartley Cromek, 1810. Whether Cromek's stanza is originally from Cunningham is unknown. Here's Cromek's stanza:

The peasantry have a verse superior to some of those recovered by Burns, which is worthy of notice.[Cromek, editor]

O though thy hair was gowden weft,
An' thy lips o' dropping hinnie,
Thou hast gotten the clog that winna cling
For a' you're waukrife minnie."

Here are the two stanzas given by Cunningham, the first is corroborated by Lyle's version:

I have heard it often sung in my youth, and sung with curious and numerous variations. One verse contained a lively image of maternal solicitude, and of the lover's impudence and presence of mind. The cock had crowed, and

Up banged the wife to blow the coal,
To see gif she could ken me?
I dang the auld wife in the fire,
And gaur'd my feet defend me.

Another verse, the concluding one, made the lover sing as he went down the glen:

O though thy hair were hanks o' gowd,
And thy lips o' dropping hinnie;
Thou hast got the clod that winna cling,
For a' thy wakerife minnie.

The supposed last stanza (it's clear the "Fare Thee Well stanza should be last) has the rare expression " clod/clog that winna cling " which translates[14] literally to "bread that will not shrink" but refers to her pregnancy and a fetus that will not shrink but grow larger. In Crawfurd's version it's " clog that winna cling " which agrees with Cromek.

The first extant version of Waukrife Mammy that included the important "How old are you?" stanza is my Ac, " The Lassie Lost Her Maidenhead a' for Her Waukrif Mammie " dated 1795 (Edinburgh?) published in " Four Excellent New Songs: The Lassie Lost Her Maidenhead a' for Her Waukrif Mammie. Johnie Cope. Rinorden, Or The Mountains High The General Toast. Entered and Licenced ." It's also the first extant print version and being 11 stanzas long, it supplies a few missing stanzas.

Whether the "How old are you?" identifying stanza was added from an earlier version and when it originated is unknown. It's simply part of the series of questions used to seduce the bonnie lass. Here is the text in full- I've supplied a few editorial emendations in brackets.

The Lassie Lost Her Maidenhead a' for Her Waukrif Mammie.

1. As I went o'er the Highland hills,
I met a bonnie lassie;
She looked at me, and I at her,
And vow[15] but she was saucy.
    To my rou tou fal dee lal, &c

2. Where are you going, my bonny lass?
Where are you going, my honey?
Right modestly she answer'd me,
An errand for my mammie.
    To my rou tou fal dee lal, &c

3. What is your age, my bonny lass?
What is your age, my honey?
Right modestly she answer'd me,
I'm fifteen years come Sunday.
    To my rou tou fal dee lal, &c[16]

4. Will you take a man, my bonny lass?
Will you take a man, my honey?
Right modestly she answer'd me,
I dare not for my mammie.

5. Where do you live, my bonnie lass?
Where do you live, my honey?
Right modestly she answer'd me,
In a wie[wee] house wi' my mammie.

6. I went into my love's chamber,
To see if she was wauking,
But we had not spoke a word or to [two]
Till her mother heard us talking.

7. Then she began to blaw the coal,
To see if she could ken me;
But I creeped out at the bed-foot,
And took the fields to screen me.

8. Then she took her by the hair of the head,
And to the floor she brought her,
And with a good green hazel rung,
She made her a well paid daughter.

9. O haul your hand, mother she says
You're liek for to devour me;
For I would never have done the like,
If you had not done't[17] before me.

10. Blink o'er the burn, my bonny lass,
Blink o'er the burn, my honey,
For you've got the clod that will not cling,
In spite of your waulkrif mammie.

11. So fare thee well, my bonnie lass,
So fare thee well, my honey,
For I would come and see you again,
Weren't for your wakerif mammy.
   With my rou tou fal dam dail,
   All, all de to my tou.

The earliest extant appearance of the identifying stanza in print is found in this 1795 version that probably was printed in Edinburgh (two sources have: Edinburgh?) It sent to me by Steve Gardham[18]. The Scottish dialect has been tempered and there's a second chorus for the last stanza which may have been used throughout. In this version the lass is just fourteen but will be fifteen on Sunday. The obvious rewriting found in this version points to an older unknown print. Since Thomas Lyle is certain that "Waukrife Mammy" dates before Burns time (1750s) it's likely that a missing print version from the late 1600s or early 1700s may be found someday.

The following early Scottish version, Ae, is a validation of Ac (the 1795 print), except it was taken from tradition in Lochwinioch Scotland by Andrew Crawfurd about 1829. Titled, "The Well Pay't Dochter (The Well-Punished Daughter)," it was transcribed by Emily Lyle from Andrew Crawfurd's Collection. Crawfurd, a disabled doctor and avid ballad collector, was born in 1786 and died in 1854. It's written in heavy dialect and "rinkand" (wakened) is used for "waukrife" (wakeful); "well pay't dochter" is "well-punished daughter." Compare Crawfurd's 10 stanzas to the 1795 print's 11 stanzas.

The Well Pay't Dochter - collected in Lochwinioch Scotland from William Orr,, dated c.1829; from Andrew Crawfurd's Collection of Ballads and Songs : edited E. B. Lyle; Edinburgh: Scottish Text Society, 1975

1.As I gade o'er the Hieland hills,
I met a bonnie lassie;
She lookit at me, and I at her,
And vow but she was saucie.

2. Whar are you gaun, my bonnie lass
Where are you going, my hinnie
Richt scornfullie she anserit me,
An eirrand for my mannie.

3. What is thy aige, my bonnie lass,
What is thy aige, my hinnie,
Richt scornfullie she anserit me,
I am fyftein cum Sunday.

4. Whar do thou lieve, my bonnie lass
Whar do thou lieve, my hinnie
Richt scornfullie she anserit me,
In a wee house wi' my minnie.

5. Will tu tak a man, my bonnie lass
Will tu tak a man, my hinnie
Richt scornfullie she anserit me,
I daurna not for my minnie.

6. As I gade into my love's roum,
To see if my love was waukand,
Her minnie was blawand the fyre
For she hard us taukand.

7. Then she began to blaw the ingle [coal],
To see if she wad ken me;
But I creipit out at the bed-fit [feet],
And to the woods to screin me.

8. She teuk her by the hair of the heid,
And unto the flore she brocht her,
And wi a gode hazel rung,
She's made her a well pay't dochter.

9. Blink owr the burn, my bonnie lass,
Blink owr the burn, my hinnie,
Thou's gat the clog that winna cling,
In spyte o thy rinkan minnie.

10 It's fare thou weil, my bonnie lass,
Fare thou weil, my hinnie,
It's I wad cum and see thee again,
Weren't for your rinkand minnie.

________________________________

Footnotes:

1. A ballad tells a story. Some versions may be considered songs-- especially the children's songs and versions from the US with floating stanzas.
2. The estimation of the ballad dating from the "early 1700s" comes primarily from Thomas Lyle's notes in his 1827 book "Ancient Ballads and Songs." Both Burns and Cunningham knew the ballad in the 1700s and considered it "old." An early date of the late 1600s in Scotland is also reasonable.
3. See Thomas Lyle's notes in his 1827 book " Ancient Ballads and Songs: Chiefly from Tradition, Manuscripts, and Scarce Works ." A biography of Lyle may be found in " The Modern Scottish Minstrel; Or, The Songs of Scotland of the Past Half Century " edited by Charles Rogers, 1857.
4. Burns says in 1790: "I PICKED up this old song and tune from a country girl in Nithsdale." In 1825 Cunningham says, "I have heard it often sung in my youth, and sung with curious and numerous variations." Cunningham adds "I believe it to be a very old song."
5. Lyle's notes are found in the already mentioned, "Ancient Ballads and Songs: Chiefly from Tradition, Manuscripts, and Scarce Works," 1827.
6. Calling him a "gentleman" is hardly accurate but infers that he's a mature, older man.
7. An ur-ballad is the unknown complete original ballad which may be reconstructed by using stanzas of existing versions.
8. The original would be "the ur-ballad."
9. "The Lassie Lost Her Maidenhead a' for Her Waukrif Mammie" dated 1795 (Edinburgh?) published in "Four Excellent New Songs: The Lassie Lost Her Maidenhead a' for Her Waukrif Mammie. Johnie Cope. Rinorden, Or The Mountains High The General Toast. Entered and Licenced."
10. Cunningham provides this info first in "The Songs of Scotland, Ancient and Modern" Volume 2, p. 244-245. See also his 1834 edition of Burns works.
11. Found in Cunningham's 1834 edition of Burns works.
12. The Scots Musical Museum, Volume 3, 1790, No. 288 with music (see original above headnotes).
13. Cunningham wrote a number of ballads that he published as tradition. This comment is a reference to his besmeared reputation and the possibility that he wrote the stanzas.
14. Child provides this definition in The English and Scottish Popular Ballads - Volume 5, page 324: clod, got the clod that winna cling, W, 154, 15: the loaf of bread (?) that will not shrink (but will rise?), referring to the impending increase of her size.
15. Dialect for "wow" it also appears as the exclamation, "O."
16. Chorus throughout
17. dont't
18. Steve Gardham of Hull supplied the text in an email January 2018. He is a consultant on this study and has supplied information and details. See his notes also in The Wanton Seed.

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 13 Feb 18 - 04:12 PM

Great background, Richie.
Whither next?

Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Richie
Date: 13 Feb 18 - 08:30 PM

Hi,

Not sure Steve, maybe you can suggest something- I still have some work to do and prefer to finish it reasonably before moving on. I'm also doing a painting of the ballad- an American version, which takes a couple days.

Here's part 2 which covers the revisions (Forms 2-4) and then there's the traditional versions after that. Waukrife Mammy is form 1 there are a number of traditional versions to consider as well as the two print versions. The other revisions are represented by broadsides.

* * * *

Part 2- 'Seventeen' headnotes:

[This early version of "Waukrife Mammy" is titled after the chorus. It's dated about 1850. From "Vagabond Songs and Ballads of Scotland; With Many Old and Familiar Melodies" edited by Robert Ford, 1899. Notice that the lassie's lover is a soldier (sodger)-- an important detail found in many later versions. Here's the text-- Ford's notes follow:

MY ROLLING EYE. [c.1850]

As I gaed up yon Hieland hill,
   I met a bonnie lassie,
She looked at me and I at her,
And oh, but she was saucy.

CHORUS With my rolling eye,
Fal the diddle eye,
Rolling eye, dum derry,
With my rolling eye.

"Where are you going, my bonnie lass?
Where are you going, my lammie?"
Right modestly she answered me?
"An errand to my mammie."

With my rolling eye, etc.

"Where do you live, my bonnie lass?
Where do you won, my lammie?"
Right modestly she answered me?
"In a wee house wi' my mammie."

With my rolling eye, etc.

"What is your name, my bonnie lass?
What is your name, my lammie?"
Right modestly she answered me?
"My name is Bonnie Annie."

With my rolling eye, etc.

"How old are you, my bonnie lass?
How old are you, my lammie?"
Rightly modestly she answered me?
"I'm sixteen years come Sunday."

With my rolling eye, etc.

"Where do you sleep, my bonnie lass?
Where do you sleep, my lammie?"
Right modestly she answered me?
"In a wee bed near my mammie."

With my rolling eye, etc.

"If I should come to your board-end
When the moon is shining clearly,
Will you rise and let me in
That the auld wife mayna hear me?"

With my rolling eye, etc.

"If you will come to my bower door
When the moon is shining clearly,
I will rise and lat you in,
And the auld wife winna hear ye."

With my rolling eye, etc.

When I gaed up to her bower door,
   I found my lassie wauken,
But lang before the grey morn cam',
The auld wife heard us talkin'

With my rolling eye, etc.

It's weary fa' the waukrife cock
May the foumart lay his crawing,
He wauken'd the auld wife frae her sleep,
A wee blink ere the dawing.

With my rolling eye, etc.

She gaed to the fire to blaw the coal,
To see if she would ken me,
But I dang the auld runt in the fire,
And bade my heels defend me.

With my rolling eye, etc.

"Oh, sodger, you maun marry me,
And now's the time or never;
Oh, sodger, you maun marry me,
Or I am done for ever."

With my rolling eye, etc.

"Blink ower the burn, my bonnie lass,
Blink ower the burn, my lammie,
Ye are a sweet and kindly queen,
For a' yer waukrife minnie."

With my rolling eye,
Fal the diddle eye,
Rolling eye, dum derry,
With my rolling eye.

There are many people living who vividly remember an odd character known as "Rolling Eye " or "Singing Sandy," who from forty to fifty years ago regularly visited the villages of Perthshire and Fifeshire in the capacity of an itinerant musician, and sang only this song. It was customary for Sandy (his real name, I believe, was Alexander Smith, and he hailed originally from Freuchie) in the summer months to have his hat profusely adorned with gay-coloured ribbons and natural flowers. His antics, too, when singing were particularly lively and attractive, and a tremendous slap on the thigh with his hand always, as he started the chorus, was the signal for those standing about to join in. Wherever he went he was followed by a crowd of delighted children, for whose attachment he had the utmost esteem.

Ford's version dated c. 1850 has the standard "sixteen come Sunday" stanza and shows the evolution toward the modern versions with the line, "When the moon is shining clearly," found in the later print versions and in the different ballad Trooper and the Maid (Child 299). The introduction of the soldier as well as the line, "When the moon is shining clearly," indicates revisions in the 1800s included textual elements from Trooper and the Maid. In the later Irish versions some composites are found.

Whether "My Rolling Eye" has been expurgated by Ford is unknown but "runt" found in the line, "But I dang the auld runt in the fire," seems to have been. A number of versions use "rolling" or "roving" eye and the chorus has also been attached to a different ballad, "The Overgate" (see: Jeannie Robertson's version). The following 8 versions of Waukrife Mammy extend the ballad from the mid 1800s to the mid 1900s. Because this study will not cover every version only the titles and sources are now given:

    h. "As I Gaed O'er yon Hech, Hech Hill," sung by Bell Roberston (1841-1922) of New Pitsligo, Aberdeenshire. The Greig-Duncan Folk Song Collection, version L. Collected in c.1906 but much older, dated c.1860.
    i. "As I Came Our[O'er] yon High, High Hill," sung by Mrs. Margaret Gillespie (1841-1910) later of Glasgow. The Greig-Duncan Folk Song Collection, version B, collected by Rev. Duncan from his sister in the early 1900s, dated c.1870 but older.
    j. "I'm Seventeen 'gin Sunday" from Ballycastle District, published Oct. 9, 1926, Henry A.
   k. "Bonnie Lassie," sung c. 1930 by William Still of Waterside, Cuminestown, Scotland (Carpenter Collection 1929-1935).
   l. "Weel Paid Dochter," sung by William Farquhar of Brownhill, Bruxie Scotland about 1929 from the James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/11/165, Disc Side 159, 01:43
   m. "Blink O'er the Burn," sung by Alexander Troup (1851-1939), Damside, Foudland, by Insch, Aberdeenshire Scotland c. 1929; Carpenter Collection.
   n. "Sixteen Come Sunday," dated 1955, sung by Norman Kennedy of Aberdeenshire. Recording "Sixteen Come Sunday," Ballads & Songs of Scotland, 1968 by Sandy Paton of Folk Legacy. Text from Cliff Haslam: Songs and Ballads of Pub, Sea and Shore.
   o. "Ma Rovin' Eye," sung by the Scottish folk group Ossian and recorded in Edinburgh in 1976. This version, presumably traditional, is from the North East of Scotland. From School of Scottish Studies.

Traces of text from Waukrife Mammy (usually the stanza with the mother beating her daughter as a punishment) are found in other versions including two from the United States[19], and several from Ireland[20]. The "fare-thee-well" stanza (last stanza) has been adapted in the US as the play-party song, "Fly Around My Pretty Little Miss." For more information and identifiers see The Scottish Tradition (below).

The Scottish "Waukrife Mammy" perhaps because of its bawdy theme was rewritten by the late 1700s and early 1800s. The sanitized versions shift the story line to a soldier but retain some of the fundamental original questions.

* * * *

The second form of "Seventeen Come Sunday," my B, a sanitized print revision, dates to the late 1700s and early 1800s. The earliest extant print version printed in Scotland about 1800 is titled, "Lady and the Soldier." Subsequent prints in England with complete texts were titled "Maid and Soldier" so "Maid and Soldier" is the master title of B. This revision pre-dates the popular "Seventeen Come Sunday" revision of the mid-1800s (c.1840 to c.1880). Printed in Scotland and England, the "Maid and soldier" revision appears to be made to eliminate the details of the sexual tryst and wakeful mother.

The earliest extant print, dated circa 1800, was a chapbook printed by J. Morren (Edinburgh) "Three Songs: LODGINGS for Single GENTLEMEN, Young Man's Frolic, The Lady and Soldier." Here is the text:

The Lady and Soldier.

1. AS I did walk along the street,
I was my father's darling,
There I spied a pretty maid,
Just as the sun was rising.
      With my rulal, la.

2. Where are you going my pretty maid,
Where are you going my honey?
She answer'd me right modestly,
Of an errand for my mammy.

3. Will you marry me, my bonny lass?
Will you marry me, my honey?
With all my heart kind sir, said she,
But dare not for my mammy.

4. Come ye but to my father's house.
When the moon shines bright and clearly,
And I will rise and let you in,
And my mammy she won't hear me.

5. I have a wife, she is my own,
And how can I disdain her.
And every town that I go through,
A girl if I can find her.

6. I'll go to-bed quite late at night,
Rise early the next morning,
The buglehorn is my delight,
And the hautboy [oboe] is my darling.

7. Of sketches I have got enough,
And money in my pocket,
And what care I for any one,
It's of the girls I've got it.
    With my rulal, la.

FINIS

This version is missing several important stanzas, the "How old are you" stanza and also stanzas after 4 but shows the modern revision form (no wakeful mother), albeit a confused story line. Memorable is the last line in the 6th stanza:

And the hautboy [oboe] is my darling.

In tradition this line has been changed. Also unusual is the use of the word "sketches" in the last stanza which appears to be slang for "plans" but its use has not been duplicated in a traditional version or similar ballad. A number of educated guesses have been made which range from "sketches" being slang for "scenes" meaning "plans" to guesses that "sketches" represents a physical object or denomination of money (see Gardham's notes in Wanton Seed).

These lines[21] from "Maid and Soldier" are similarly found in Trooper and the Maid:

Come ye but to my father's house,
When the moon shines bright and clearly,

The Trooper and the Maid (Child 299) is a different Scottish song with a similar theme and this seems to be the only common text. That the "moon shines bright and clearly" and soldier (trooper) stanzas appear in both suggests that the originator of B, a print revision, borrowed these textual elements from Trooper and the Maid. The "Maid and Soldier" broadsides reflect this new association-- a soldier replaces her unidentified lover. These textual changes persist in the later "Seventeen Come Sunday" revision found in print and tradition. I'm not suggesting that the "Trooper and the Maid" and "Seventeen" are the same. Suggestions that they are the same, perhaps precipitated by Ennis's version, "As I Roved Out," and A.L. Lloyd's notes[22], have caused confusion. The "soldier" and "clearly" changes seems to have been added to the "Waukrife Mammy" text by the late 1700s and early 1800s, which is about the time "Maid and Soldier" was first printed[23]. The "Maid and Soldier" revision, my B, has as identifiers-- the soldier stanza, the "shoes are black" stanza and the "moon shines bright and clearly" stanza(s). Ba (see text above), dated c.1800, is missing the soldier stanza but the title (Lady and the Soldier) shows that the soldier stanza was left off and that Ba was taken from an earlier missing version of B. The story line of B has drastically changed and the opening, the stanzas with "waukrife mammy" and the ending have been eliminated. The "waukrife mammy" has been replaced by "mammy" or "mommie." The Scottish versions of B have retained the Waukrife Mammy opening stanza.

Bb, "Maid and Soldier" printed in London at 115 Long Alley by Thomas Batchelar about 1820 is a longer version of Ba, with a slight variation of the chorus:

Maid and Soldier

1. As I did walk along the street,
I was my father's darling,
A pretty maid there I did meet
Just as the sun was rising.
      With my row de dow.

2. Her shoes were black her stocking white,
The buckles were of silver,
She had a black and rolling eye,
Her hair hung down her shoulders.

3. Where are you going my pretty maid
Where are you going my honey?
She answer?d me right cheerfully,
Of an errand for my mammy.

4. How old are you, my pretty maid?
How old are you, my honey?"
She answered me right cheerfully:
"I'm seventeen come Sunday."

5. Will you marry me, my pretty maid?
Will you marry me, my honey?
With all my heart, kind sir, she said ,
But dare not for my mammy.

6. Come you but to my mammy?s house.
When the moon shines bright and clearly,
I will rise and let you in,
My mammy shall not hear me.

7. Oh! soldier, will you marry me?
Now is your time or never,
And if you do not marry me,
I am undone forever.

8. I have a wife and she is my own,
How can I disdain her,
And every town that I go thro',
A girl if I can find her.

9. I?ll go to bed quite late at night,
Rise early the next morning,
The buglehorn is my delight,
And the oboy [oboe] is my darling.

10. Of sketches I have got enough,
And money in my pocket,
And what care I for any one,
It's of the girls I've got it.

This is the complete known B text and some text from B has been changed in tradition. Stanzas 9 and 10 have undergone the most change in tradition: the oboe (hautboy; oboy) is gone, replaced by a bottle of rum and "sketches" must have not been understood by tradsingers and that stanza was eliminated. B remains as the important first revision and its identifiers show its presence in tradition both in the UK and North America. B also was incorporated into versions of A which is evident in the text of Ford's "My Rolling Eye" and the later versions of Waukrife Mammy. By the mid-1800s versions of A have textual changes from B.

The introduction of the Soldier replacing the lover and the line, "When the moon shines bright and clearly" show that the "Maid and Soldier" revision that was created to sanitize the bawdy Scottish text and removed the "waukrife mammy" has borrowed from Trooper and the Maid. Further evidence is supplied with the addition of stanza 7[24]:

7. Oh! soldier, will you marry me?
Now is your time or never,
And if you do not marry me,
I am undone forever.

The parallel but different ballad, Trooper and the Maid, became a small part of the "Seventeen" ballads with the first revision. It would not be until the mid-1900s with Seamus Ennis version that the two different texts would be blended.

* * * *

The Soldier and the Fair Maid broadside, my C, of which there are at least two extant different printings is a 3rd specific form and is my second revision. It is a rewrite of B, "Maid and Soldier" and has the same opening as the Seventeen Come Sunday broadsides. I've dated The Soldier and the Fair Maid broadside as late 1830s and this broadside perhaps predates the Seventeen Come Sunday broadsides. The text below has a different ending stanza and is missing one line (in brackets). It can be regarded as intermediate version between "Maid and Soldier" and "Seventeen Come Sunday" although both were created about the same time. "Soldier and the Fair Maid" was mentioned in Cox's (Folk Songs of the South, 1925) notes.

Soldier and the Fair Maid. (broadside text; Yorkshire, later, Dickinson of York, dated late 1830s)

As I walked out one May morning,
Just as the day was dawning,
There I espied a pretty fair maid,
Just as the sun was rising,
    With my row, dow, dow.

Where are you going my pretty maid,
Where are you going my honey?
She answered me right cheerfully,
An errand for my mammy.

Her shoes were black, her stockings white,
[Her buckles shined like silver,]
She had a black and rolling eye,
And her hair hung over her shoulder.

Will you marry me, my pretty fair maid,
Will you marry me, my honey?
She answered me right cheerfully,
I dare not for my mammy.

How old are you my pretty fair maid,
How old are you my honey,
She answered me right cheerfully,
I am seventeen come Sunday.

Will you come to my mammy's house,
When the moon shines bright and clearly,
I'll come down and let you in,
And my mammy shall not hear me.

I went down to her mammy's house,
When the moon shone bright and clearly,
And she came down and let me in,
And her mammy never heard me.

Come soldier will you marry me?
For now is your time or never,
For if you will not marry me,
I am undone for ever.

No lassie I will not marry,
For all thy father's treasure,
For every town I pass through,
I will have a fresh lass if I can gain her.

This revision, C, eliminates the last stanzas of B which were lost in tradition and expands the 8th. No traditional versions have been recovered that are closely related to C, however the same emendations have occurred in tradition. The last stanza is also found reworded in B.

* * * *

My D, "Seventeen Come Sunday," crafted by a broadside writer around 1840, is a 4th form, a revision of B. Maid and Soldier or perhaps C. Soldier and the Fair Maid. This is the standard "Seventeen" form with the "Seventeen Come Sunday" title and a "happy" ending. This happy ending, where the maid stays with her soldier lad at the battle lines, is varied-- the last line sometimes is changed to: "And a merry man in the morning" (see Such broadside). Here's the standard English text from J. Paul and Co., Printers, 2 & 3, Monmouth Court, Seven Dials, dated between 1838-1845:

SEVENTEEN COME SUNDAY. (standard broadside text)

As I walked out one May morning,
One May morning so early,
I overtook a handsome maid,
Just as the sun was rising,
With my ru, rum, ra.

Her stockings white, her shoes were bright,
Her buckles shined like silver,
She had a black and a rolling eye,
And her hair hung over her shoulder.

Where are you going my pretty maid,
Where are you going my honey?
She answered me right cheerfully,
An errand for my mammy.

How old are you my pretty maid,
How old are you my honey,
She answered me right modestly,
I'm seventeen come Sunday.

Will you take a man my pretty maid,
Will you take a man my honey?
She answered me right cheerfully,
I dare not for my mammy.

If you will come to my mammy's house,
When the moon shines bright and clearly,
I'll come down and let you in,
My mammy shall not hear you.

I went down to her mammy's house,
When the moon so bright was shining,
She came down and let me in,
And I lay in her arms till morning.

Soldier will you marry me?
For now is your time or never,
For if you do not marry me,
I am undone for ever.

Now I am with my soldier lad,
Where the wars they are alarming,
A drum and fife are my delight,
And a pint of rum in the morning.

Most of the traditional English versions from the late 1800s and early 1900s adhere to this broadside text with little variation. The alternate ending line, "And a merry man in the morning," is standard in many traditional versions.

___________________________________

Footnotes:

19. See Sharp A, Eddy B.
20. See for example, Henry A and Makem family's "As I Roved Out."
21. "Lady and Soldier" stanza 4 lines 1 and 2. The second line is found in Trooper and the Maid (Motherwell variant).
22. A.L. Lloyd, who titled his version of Seventeen, "The Soldier and the Maid" in 1956 on his Tradition album The Foggy Dew and Other Traditional English Love Songs, commented this in the liner notes: "The encounter of the licentious soldier with the obliging young girl was an old story when Roman troops patrolled the great wall between England and Scotland. For newer versions, listen to the gossip around any army camp, any day, anywhere. Of the many ballads in the family of The Trooper and the Maid, this is perhaps the best."
23. The first version "Lady and Soldier printed in Edinburgh in 1800 is missing the "soldier" stanza (soldier is mentioned nowhere in the text) which means it was named after and based on an earlier unknown print version.
24. From "Maid and Soldier" broadside printed in London at 115 Long Alley by Thomas Batchelar about 1820, (1817-1828).

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Richie
Date: 13 Feb 18 - 11:32 PM

Hi,

This is the 3rd installment of the "Seventeen" headnotes covering the Scottish and Irish traditions. To view the entire headnotes: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/9-seventeen-come-sunday.aspx

* * * *

3rd Part: "Seventeen" Headnotes:


[The Tradition (Overview)
The traditional versions are based on, or similar, the four main forms A-D. The Scottish "Waulkrife Mammy" ballad descent is archaic and dates back at least to the first half of the 1700s and possibly earlier. Whether A originated in print is unknown but an early missing Scottish print is likely[25]. The first extant print of A, is Ac, "The Lassie Lost Her Maidenhead a' for Her Waukrif Mammie," dated 1795. A sanitized revision, B "Maid and Soldier (Lady and Soldier)" which dates back to the late 1700s in Scotland and the early 1800s in England, introduced new stanzas and changed the story line. By the 1830s another print revision, C, was made titled "Soldier and The Fair Maid" and about the same time the popular revision, D, "Seventeen Come Sunday" was issued and widely reprinted until the 1880s.

The English descent begins with "Maid and Soldier" and continues with the two reprints of the 1830s, "Soldier and The Fair Maid" and the popular broadside, "Seventeen Come Sunday." The English traditional versions are similar to or based on the print versions of "Seventeen," the third revision (c.1840).

The Irish descent runs parallel to the Scottish. Although there is anecdotal evidence[26] (Joyce remembers it in his childhood) that "Waukrife Mammy" was known in Ireland during early 1800s, no early versions have survived. In Scotland the opening stanza of Waukrife Mammy had been combined with the "Maid and Soldier" by circa 1800. The earliest extant Irish versions collected by Sam Henry in the early 1900s show the popular opening stanza from Waukrife and the text from Maid and Soldier were part of tradition. Sam Henry A, collected in 1926, is classified as a version of Waukrife and has the "well-beat daughter" stanza. The associations that started with "Maid and Soldier" borrowing from the "Trooper and the Maid" continued and by the mid-1900s "As I Roved Out" (originally titled, "When Cockle Shells Make Silver Bells"), a composite with Trooper and the Maid, was recorded by Seamus Ennis of Dublin in 1947. This important composite helped spawn a series of related cover songs and propelled "As I Roved Out" into the UK folk mainstream. The fact that the title "As I Roved Out" represented by Ennis' song, was used for Peter Kennedy and Seamus Ennis' regular Sunday morning BBS Radio Programme broadcast six years in the 1950s added to the song's popularity. The other important traditional Irish "As I Roved Out" title was first recorded by Sarah Makem for Jean Ritchie in 1952. The Makem family's longer version[27] was popularized by Tommy Makem, Clancy Brothers and later by Joe Heaney and Len Graham. The problem with the "As I Roved Out" title is that the same beginning text is found in any number of different songs and is a ballad commonplace.

In North America the "Seventeen Come Sunday" ballads are a mixture of the basic forms and full versions of the forms are rarely found. Broadsides and print versions were not made and the versions appear to have been disseminated by immigrants and over time have been reduced or new stanzas have been added. There are only two versions that are from the older Scottish Waukrife Mammy tradition (Sharp A and Eddy B) and these are missing the details. In the US "Seventeen come Sunday" is usually "sixteen next Sunday" and "bonny lassie" is "pretty little miss." This identifying stanza (How old are you) is frequently combined with stanzas from other songs to form new composites.

The Scottish Tradition ("Waukrife Mammy," "My Rolling Eye," "As I Gaed O'er yon High, High Hill")
Reports of the history of this ballad, including those from the late 1700s, indicate that the ballad is "old." How old is a matter of conjecture and a date of the early 1700s seems to be appropriate, although the ballad may be older in Scotland-- originating in the 1600s. Burns collected a version from Martha Crosbie about 1788, who Burns doesn't identify but calls a country girl from Nithsdale. Her identity is revealed by Cromek in his 1810 book, Select Scottish Songs, Ancient and Modern, Volume 2. Burns gave Johnson a copy about 1790 and he is probably the transcriber of the melody found in Johnson's Musical Museum, Volume 3, No. 188. Cromek printed Burns stanzas in Select Scottish Songs and supplied an additional ending stanza[28] from tradition that Burns was missing. In 1825 Alan Cunningham gave two stanzas supposedly from tradition in his "The Songs of Scotland, Ancient and Modern" Volume 2, p. 244-245. His ending stanza is the same as Cromek's with slight variation. That ending stanza is the "clod/clog that winna (will not) cling" stanza which means that as a result of her dalliance with her young man-- she is now pregnant. Cunningham alleged that Burns had reworked his stanzas but upon examination it appears that only 4 lines have been recreated by Burns. The stanzas of Burns version was confirmed by Thomas Lyle who published a longer version titled "Wakerife Mammy" in his 1827 book "Ancient Ballads and Songs: Chiefly from Tradition, Manuscripts, and Scarce Works." Lyle's version is apparently taken from tradition but he gives no informants. His inclusion of text similar to Burns is suspicious for Lyle calls both Burns and Cunningham's stanzas "faulty[29]." Lyle's text was printed in a Falkirk chapbook[30] about 1830 which presumably was taken from Lyle[31] and reprinted (see that edition online). The identifying stanza "How old are you (Seventeen Come Sunday)" is missing showing that the versions by Burns, Cunningham, Lyle and the Falkirk chapbook were all "faulty."

The first print dated 1795 that was thought to have been published in Edinburgh[32] is titled "The Lassie Lost Her Maidenhead a' for Her Waukrif Mammie." That revealing title which translates-- "The Lassie lost her virginity in spite of her wakeful mother"-- was published in a chapbook titled: "Four Excellent New Songs: The Lassie Lost Her Maidenhead a' for Her Waukrif Mammie. Johnie Cope. Rinorden, Or The Mountains High The General Toast. Entered and Licenced." The 1795 print although poorly rewritten in a jumble of inconsistent Scottish slang has the full stanzas and includes the fundamental missing "How old are you" stanza. This along with several complete or nearly complete versions taken from tradition show that the ur-ballad (original complete ballad) was about 11 stanzas long and was probably printed earlier but is missing. Fortunately there are 14 different versions of Waukrife Mammy and one duplicate (version Af). Four versions are taken from the James Madison Carpenter Collection and the single Irish representative is from Sam Henry.

Four important traditional version of A were collected after the version printed in Lyle's 1827 book:

1) "The Well Pay't Dochter," was collected in Lochwinioch, Scotland from William Orr about c.1829 and appears in Andrew Crawfurd's Collection of Ballads and Songs: edited E. B. Lyle; Edinburgh: Scottish Text Society, 1975. Written in heavy Scotch brogue, Orr's version is only lacking one stanza and has "rinkand" (wakened) instead of "waukrife" (wakeful).
2) "As I Gaed O'er yon Hech, Hech Hill," was recited by Bell Roberston (1841-1922) of New Pitsligo, Aberdeenshire and collected by Gavin Greig about 1906. It appears in The Greig-Duncan Folk Song Collection as version L. This version is much older and has possibly been passed down to Bell from her grandmother Isobel Stephen which would date this to the late 1700s in Strichen.
3) "As I Came Our[O'er] yon High, High Hill," sung by Mrs. Margaret Gillespie (1841-1910) later of Glasgow. The Greig-Duncan Folk Song Collection, version B, collected by Rev. Duncan from his sister in the early 1900s, dated c.1870 but older.
4) "My Rolling Eye" dated c. 1850. Taken from Alexander Smith of Perthshire by Robert Ford. Published in Vagabond Songs and Ballads of Scotland: With Many Old and Familiar Melodies, edited by Robert Ford, 1899.

The fourth version by Alexander Smith shows the mixture of the late 1700s broadside rewrite, "Maid and Soldier." The new text includes the "Her shoes were black" stanza, the soldier as lover, and the line "When the moon is shining clearly." The last two changes are similarly found in Child 299, Trooper and the Maid. It's evident that stanzas of B. "Maid and Soldier" started becoming used in versions of Waukrife Mammy in the early to mid-1800s. The opening stanza of Waukrife Mammy was used for these newer versions of "Maid and soldier." Gone is the waukrife mammy who is now just "mammy" and the episode with her daughter's new lover has been replaced by core stanzas of "Maid and Soldier" which appear similarly in the other revisions. Before the other new revisions are considered, the following identifiers for Waulrife Mammy are given:

Waukrife Mammy Identifiers (11 stanzas)
(opening) "As I gaed o'er the Highland hills" or "high, high hill[s]"
"waukrife" (wakeful) or "rinkand" (wakened)
"Where are ye gaun, my bonnnie lass?"
"What is yer name, my bonnie lass?
"What is yer age, my bonnie lass?
"Where do ye dwell (bide), my bonnie lass?
Will ye hae(take) a man my bonnie lass?
Will I come and see ye, my bonnie lass?
"O weary fa' the wakerife cock"
"clod/clog that winna (will not) cling"
"Well-paid dochter (daughter)
(ending) "Fare thee weel, my bonnie lass,"

Although some of the questions remain consistent, the dynamic story line of "Waukrife Mammy" is lost in the "Maid and Soldier" and the later revisions. The ending in the revisions is poorly sanitized: the cock does not crow too early and wake the mother; her mother does not enter the room and blow on the coals of the fire to illuminate the face of her daughter's lover to see if she can recognize him; her lover does not slip out of bed and run to the fields to hide; her mother does not take her daughter by the hair to the floor and spank her with a green hazel switch so that she was a well-punished daughter; she does not look over the hill because she has gotten pregnant despite her wakeful mother; he does not bid her farewell and tell her that he would come to see her again if not for her wakeful mother.

In the revision endings the poetry is gone, her lover is now a soldier. He comes to her house, then the action skips to the soldier leaving while the maid insists that he marry her. Both the endings in the revisions are wanting: 1) in the "Maid and Soldier" he's already married but is a rambler who has a girl in every town 2) she is with her soldier lad while he's fighting the wars.

* * * *

Later Scottish Tradition
The later Scottish tradition texts use the Waukrife Mammy opening stanza followed by the questions (Where are ye gaun? etc), then comes stanzas from Maid and Soldier used in the rendezvous at the maid's house. Although most of the questions are the same in the later Scottish versions, one question, "What is yer name?" (which she gives as "Bonnie Annie"), is different and was either missing from earliest versions or has been added in the 1800s. The ending, an invitation for the soldier to visit her, is a mixture of the revisions and not part of the early "Waukrife Mammy" tradition. An example of a composite with the later tradition is "My Rolling Eye" which has elements of both traditions and includes the "soldier" (sodger) and the "When the moon shines bright and clearly" line. "Rolling Eye" is a title named for the chorus of nonsense syllables that follow each stanza which begins, "With my rolling eye." The later tradition of "Rolling Eye" is exemplified by "Wi Ma Rovin Eye" a North Scotland version by Ossian, a well-known Scottish folk band. In Willie Mathieson's "Rollin' Eye" the "Waukrife Mammy" stanzas are gone. Duncan Williamson's "My Rolling Eye" does not have the "Waukrife Mammy" text and shows a connection to many of the US versions with the lines:

She wink-ed at me with a "tee-lee-lee,"
I'll be sixteen next Monday.

The later tradition includes many of the versions in The Greig-Duncan Folk Song Collection from the early 1900s. Their master title is "Soldier Lad." The following version collected by Rev. Duncan about 1906 is related to the revision, "Maid and Soldier."

"As I Went Owre Yon High, High Hill," from Mrs. Grieg, Greig-Duncan D

1. As I went owre yon high, high hill,
I met a bonnie lassie;
She looked at me and I to her,
And oh, but she seemed saucy.

Wi' my too rin in a, a reedle a,
Fal de dae ral i do, wi' my too rin an' a.

2. Faur are ye gaun, my bonnie, bonnie lass,
Faur are ye gaun, my honey,
Right modestly she answered me,
An' erran' to my mammie.

3. Faur is your hame, my bonnie, bonnie lass,
Faur is your hame, my honey?
Right modestly she answered me,
In a wee hoose wi'my mammie.

4. Will ye gang wi' me, my bonnie, bonnie lass,
Will ye gang wi' me, my honey?"
Right modestly she answered him,
I durna for my mammie.

5. Now sodger ye maun marry me,
Now's the time or never,
Sodger ye maun marry me,
Or I am done for ever."

6. I have a wife in my ain countree,
An' how could I abuse her,
I have a lass in every place
An' a girlie when I choose her.

The ending is clearly "Maid and Soldier" however the last two stanzas of Maid and Soldier" (with "hautboy is my delight") are not found in Scottish tradition and rarely in the English[33]. Besides the Grieg Duncan Collection, the Carpenter Collection has a number of excellent Scottish texts of the later tradition. Their master title is "Bonnie Lassie." The version "As I Gaed Up Yon Hich, Hich Hill," sung by Leslie Durno of Insch was learned from George Doe, a peddler, old Scottish Soldier in 1873. It is a good example of the "Waukrife" opening followed by stanzas of "Maid and Soldier." The ending two stanzas of "Maid" are usually gone and the 8th stanza has been expanded.

In general, versions of later Scottish tradition keep the opening stanza from the "Waulkrife" ballads then use stanzas from Soldier and the Maid. Scottish examples from the early 1950s-1970s may be heard online at the School of Scottish Studies.

* * * *

The Irish Tradition
Although corroborating evidence is lacking, the Irish Tradition appears to parallel the Scottish and may be nearly as old. In his 1873 book, "Ancient Irish Music: comprising one hundred Airs hitherto unpublished. . .", Patrick Weston Joyce (1827-1914) commented: "I cannot tell when I learned the air and words of this song, for I have known them as long as my memory can reach back. Some portions of the old song are spirited and well adapted to the air; others are very rude and worthless. . .". The song text he gives, which is completely rewritten and titled "I'm Going to Be Married on Sunday," only includes this trace of the "Seventeen" ballad: "I?m sixteen years old on next Sunday!? If we assume the song Joyce knew when he was young was a version of "Seventeen," that dates it to the 1830s in Ireland.

The earliest extant version, "I'm Seventeen 'gin Sunday" from Ballycastle District (published Oct. 9, 1926 by Sam Henry) has two stanzas from "Waukrife Mammy" and is classified as a version of A, although it also has stanzas from "Maid and Soldier." The "shoes and stockings" stanza and the two "And the moon was shining clearly" stanzas are found in the early revision, "Maid and Soldier." Here's the text from Sam Henry's Songs of the People edited by Gale Huntington, Lani Herrmann:

"I'm Seventeen 'gin Sunday" from Ballycastle District, published Oct. 9, 1926.

'Where are you going, my bonnie wee lass?
Where are you going, my honey?'
Right modestly she answered me,
'An errand for my mammy.'

CHORUS: With my roor-ri-ra, Fond a doo a da,
With my roo ri ranta mirandy.

'What's your age, my bonnie wee lass,
What's your age, my honey?'
Right modestly she answered me,
'I'm seventeen 'gin Sunday.'

'Would you tak' a man, my bonnie wee lass?
Would you tak' a man, my honey?'
Right modestly she answered me,
'If it wasny for my mammy.

She had new shoes and stockin's too,
And her buckles shone like silver,
She had a dark and rolling eye,
And her hair hanging over her shoulders.

'If I would go doon to your wee hoose,
And the moon was shining clearly,
Would you open the do[o]r and let me in,
If the oul' wife widna hear me?'

I gaed doon to her wee hoose,
And the moon was shining clearly,
She opened the do[o]r and let me in,
And the oul' wife didna hear me.

Canny slippin' aff my boots
In case that oul' thrush wid ken me,
But by my feth I wasn't long in
Till the oul' wife heard us talkin'.

Canny slippin' doon the stairs,
By the hair o' the heed she caught her
And with a great big hazel stick
She left her a well-bate daughter.

Throwing in the stool tae the fire
In case that oul' thrush wid ken me,
But by my feth I had tae tak'
The green fields tae defend me.

Come over the burn, my bonnie wee lass,
Come over the burn, my honey,
Till I get a kiss o' your sweet lips
To spite your aul', aul' mammy.

This second version from Sam Henry starts off with the archaic Scottish opening and follows with the more modern stanzas of the "Seventeen Come Sunday" broadsides of the mid 1800s.

"As I Gaed ower a Whinny Knowe," sung by Andy Allen of Bridge Cottage, Coleraine; published Feb 4, 1939.

As I went ower a whinny knowe
I met a bonny lassie,
She laughed at me, I winked at her,
and oh, but I was sassie.

Wi my ru rum ra, far an ta a na,
[W]hack fal tar an addy.

Her shoes were black, her stockings white,
her buckles shone like silver,
She had a dark and rolling eye
and her hair hung ower her shoulder.

'Oh, where are you going, my bonny wee lass?
Oh, where are you going, my honey?'
Right modestly she answered me,
'Gaun a message for my mammy.'

'What is your age, my bonny wee lass?
What is your age, my honey?
Right cheerfully she answered me,
'I'll be seventeen come come Sunday.'

'Would you give me a kiss, my bonny wee lass?
Would you give me a kiss, my bonny?'
Right bashfully she answered me,
'I dare not for my mammy.'

'Oh, where do you live, my bonny wee lass?
Oh, where do you live, my honey?
Right joyfully she answered me,
'In a wee house wi' my mammy. '

So I went down to her wee house,
the moon was shining clearly;
I rapped upon her window pane
and the old wife didna hear me.

'Oh, open the door, my bonny wee lass,
come open the door, my honey,
And I will give you a kiss or two,
in spite of your old mammy. '

'Oh, soldier, would you marry me?
For now's your time or never.
For if you do not marry me ,
my heart is broke for ever.'

So now she is the soldier's wife
and sails across the brine-o,
The drum and fife is my delight,
and a merry heart is mine-o.

This second version mirrors the new Scottish tradition and is evidence that the third revision (Seventeen Come Sunday) was current in Ireland. As no Irish broadsides have been recovered, it may be assume that at least some were printed or the Scottish "Waukrife" prints managed to effect tradition. By the early to mid-1900s a new version appeared that was composite with Trooper and the Maid.

In 1947 a first version of this modern Irish tradition titled, "As I Roved Out," was recorded by Seamus Ennis of Dublin. His new composite, first titled "When Cockle Shells Make Silver Bells," combined "Trooper and the Maid" with "Seventeen"--the first stanzas were "Seventeen" while the last stanzas were "Trooper and the Maid." This important composite helped spawn a series of related cover songs and propelled "As I Roved Out" into the UK folk mainstream. The fact that the title "As I Roved Out" came to represent not only Ennis' song but was the name of a BBS Radio Programme of Irish folk music, was instrumental in propelling the song info the folk mainstream where it was covered by a number of folk musicians (see cover by Isla Cameron). The regular Sunday morning radio show was hosted by Peter Kennedy and Seamus Ennis for six years in the 1950s. The other important traditional Irish "As I Roved Out" composite was recorded by Sarah Makem for Jean Ritchie in 1952. Although Makem only sang two stanzas for Ritchie, the Makem family's longer 8 stanza version was transcribed by her great-grand-daughter, Stéphanie Makem[34]. This longer version was popularized by Tommy Makem, Clancy Brothers and later arranged by Joe Heaney-- the latter performer had an elaborate arrangement with two melodies and choruses (incorporating both the popular "As I Roved Out" versions). The title "As I Roved Out" has been used for any number of different songs and is a ballad commonplace.

Seanmus Ennis recorded two versions; "When Cockle Shells Make Silver Bells" in 1947 and around 1951 recorded a short five stanza versions title "As I Roved Out," which is "Seventeen" with the "When Cockle Shells" ending. The complete "When Cockle Shells Make Silver Bells" text was retitled "As I Roved Out" when published by Peter Kennedy in 1951.

"When cockle shells make silver bells" (As I Roved Out)- sung by Seamus Ennis of Dublin as recorded on AFS 09961A, 1947. Stanzas follow the form of stanza 1 with chorus. Paul Clayton did a cover of this version in 1957.

1 As I roved out one bright May morning
One May morning early,
As I roved out one bright May morning
One May morning early
I met a maid upon the way
She was her mama's darling
CHORUS: With me roo-rum-re. Fal-the-diddle-ra,
Star-vee-upple, al-the-di-dee, do

2. Her shoes were black and her stockin's white
And her hair shines like the silver
She has two nice bright sparkling eyes
And her hair hangs o'er her shoulder.

3 "What age are you, my pretty fair maid?
What age are you, my darling?"
She answered me quite modestly,
"I'm sixteen years next Monday morning."

4 "And will you come to my Mama's house?
The moon shines bright and clearly
O, open the door, and let me in
And Dada will not hear us."

5 She took me by the lily-white hand
And led me to the table,
There's plenty of wine for soldiers here
As far as they can take it.

6. She took my horse by the bridle rein,
And led him to the stable
There's plenty of hay for a soldier's horse
As far as they are able.

7. And she went up and dressed the bed
And dressed it soft and easy
And I went up to tuck her in
Crying: "Lassie, are you comfortable?"

8. I slept in the house till the break of day
And in the morning early
I got up and put on my shoes
Crying: "Lassie, I must leave you!"

9 "And when till you return again,
Or when till we get married?"
"When cockle shells make silver bells
That's the time we'll marry."

Here's the second version which is shorter and closer to "Seventeen":

As I Roved Out- sung by Seamus Ennis, Dublin c. 1951; recorded by Alan Lomax

As I roved out one bright May morning,
On a May morning early,
As I roved out one bright May morning,
On a May morning early,
I met a maid upon the way,
She was her mama's darling.

Chorus: With me rule-rum-rah, fa-la-diddle-da,
Shall be diddle all the day-dee-do.

Her shoes were black and her stockings white,
And her hair shines like the silver;
Her shoes were black and her stockings white,
And her hair shines like the silver;
She has two nice bright sparking eyes,
And her hair hangs o'er her shoulders.
Chorus

"What age are you, my pretty fair maid?
What age are you, my darling?
"What age are you, my pretty fair maid?
What age are you, my darling?
She answered me quite modestly,
"I'm sixteen years next Monday morning."
Chorus

"Will you come to my Mama's house,
The moon shines bright and clearly?
Will you come to my Mama's house,
The moon shines bright and clearly?
Oh, open the door and let me in,
And Dada will not hear us."
Chorus

"When will you return again,
Or when will we get married?
When will you return again,
Or when will we get married?"
"When cockle shells make silver bells
That's the time we'll marry."
Chorus

Listen: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXSbxe-FHEQ

The other influential traditional recording titled "As I Roved out" was Jean Ritchie's recording of Sara Makem in 1952. Irish traditional singer Sarah Makem was born October 18, 1900 and died 20 April 1983. She was a native of Keady, County Armagh, Northern Ireland. Sarah was the wife of fiddler Peter Makem, mother of musicians Tommy Makem and Jack Makem, and grandmother of musicians Shane Makem, Conor Makem and Rory Makem. Sarah Makem and her cousin, Annie Jane Kelly, were members of the Singing Greenes of Keady[35]. Here's the two stanza version which has the corruption in the first stanza of "early" rhyming with "early" instead of the Scot, "saucy":

"As I Roved Out" sung by Sarah Makem as recorded by Jean Ritchie, November, 1952

As I roved out on a May morning
On a May morning right early
I met my love upon the way
Oh, Lord but she was early.

Chorus:
And she sang lilt-a-doodle, lilt-a-doodle, lilt-a-doodle-dee,
And she hi-di-lan-di-dee, and she hi-di-lan-di-dee and she lan--day.

Her boots were black and her stockings white
Her buckles shone like silver
She had a dark and a rollin' eye
And her ear-rings tipped her shoulder.

Chorus:
And she sang lilt-a-doodle, lilt-a-doodle, lilt-a-doodle-dee,
And she hi-di-lan-di-dee, and she hi-di-lan-di-dee and she lan--day.

Irish folklorist Sean O'Boyle from Armagh brought Jean and her husband, George Picklow, to meet Sarah in Keady. After the recording Jean believed Sarah (about 52 years old) only knew those two stanzas[36]. Ritchie later recorded her father's version of "Seventeen" with Doc Watson. Sarah's 1956 version also had two stanzas and it seems likely that family and musical friends added stanzas to create the following complete version--although the stanzas are attributed to Sarah by her great-granddaughter[37]:

As I Roved Out - Makem family long version

As I roved out on a May morning
On a May morning right early
I met my love upon the way
Oh, Lord but she was early.

Chorus:
And she sang lilt-a-doodle, lilt-a-doodle, lilt-a-doodle-dee,
And she hi-di-lan-di-dee, and she hi-di-lan-di-dee and she lan-day.

2. Her boots were black and her stockings white
Her buckles shone like silver
She had a dark and a rolling eye
And her ear-rings tipped her shoulder.

3. "What age are you my bonny wee lass
What age are you my honey?"
Right modestly she answered me
"I'll be seventeen on Sunday."

4. "Where do you live my bonny wee lass
Where do you live my honey?"
"In a wee house up on the top of the hill
And I live there with my mammy."

5. "If I went to the house on the top of the hill
When the moon was shining clearly
Would you arise and let me in
And your mammy not to hear you?"

6. I went to the house on the top of the hill
When the moon was shining dearly
She arose to let me in
But her mammy chanced to hear her.

7. She caught her by the hair of the head
And down to the room she brought her
And with the butt of a hazel twig
She was the well-beat daughter

8. "Will you marry me now my soldier lad
Will you marry me now or never?
Will you marry me now my soldier lad
For you see I'm done forever"

9. "I can't marry you my bonny wee lass
I can't marry you my honey
For I have got a wife at home
And how could I disown her?"

An additional ending stanza was added by Tommy Makem to the family version.

10. A pint at night is my delight
And a gallon in the morning
The old women are my heart break
But the young ones is my darling.

Tommy's last stanza is a reworking of the popular broadside ending of Seventeen come Sunday. The "hazel twig" stanza (7th) is from the Waukrife tradition while stanzas 3-6 and 7-8 are from the Maid and Soldier revision. Dozens of cover's have been made of the Makem version. David Hammond (on "I Am The Wee Falorie Man," 1958) recorded a cover version of the two stanza fragment of Sarah Makem. The great Northern Irish singer Len Graham, and a singer from the border, County Louth, Pádraigín Ní Uallacháin recorded a version of the long Makem/Clancy version as well as The Clancy Brothers and Tommy Makem and The Woods Band. Joe Heaney's arrangement of the Makem family's "As I Roved Out" is combined with Ennis' "As I Roved Out" which became one of his signature songs in concert.

This brief Irish study concludes with a version collected from Mary Delaney who learned it in the 1940s from County Tipperary traveller, "Snap" Cash. It's from the recording From Puck to Appleby: Songs and stories from Jim Carroll's and Pat Mackenzie's recordings of Irish Travellers in England:

New Ross Town- from Irish traveller Mary Delaney, learned about 1944.

For, as I went out on a moonlight night
As the moon shined bright and clearly,
When a New Ross girl I chanced to meet,
She looks at me surprising;
We had a roo ry rah, fol the diddle ah,
Roo ry, roo ry, roo ry rah.

"Oh, will I go, my dear," he says,
"Or will I go my honey?"
Nice and gay she answered me,
"Go down and ask me mammy."
We?ll have roo ry rah, fol the diddle ah,
Roo ry rah she was a tome old hag.

Oh, I went down to her mammy's house
When the moon shined bright and clearly,
She opened the door and let me in
And her mammy never heard us;
We had ...

"Oh, soldier dear, will you marry me
For now is your time or ever,
Oh, Holy God, will you marry me?
If you don't and I'm ruined for ever;"
With my ...

"You are too young, my dear," he says,
"You are too young, my honey."
"For if you think I am too young,
Go down and ask me mammy;"
We?ll have ...

"How old are you, my dear," he says,
"How old are you, my honey?"
Nice and gay she answered me,
"Gone seventeen since Sunday."
With my ...

"Now I have a wife and a comely wife,
And a wife, I won't forsake her,
There's ne'er a town I would walk down
Where I'd get one if I take her."
With my roo ry rah, fol the diddle ah,
Roo ry rah you are a tome old hag.

Delaney's version obviously is not related to either of the popular "As I Roved Out" versions but is from the tradition of the first revision, Maid and Soldier.

___________________________

Footnotes:

25. Since the story is so consistent, a missing print version is indicated. The first public print, dated 1795, is clearly taken from another print and reworked.
26. Patrick Weston Joyce (1827-1914) commented in his 1873 book, "Ancient Irish Music": "I cannot tell when I learned the air and words of this song, for I have known them as long as my memory can reach back.
27. In their book the full arrangement was "adapted by Sarah & Tommy Makem and Pat, Tom, and Liam Clancy"
28. See stanza in the Waukrife Mammy section from Cromek, Select Scottish Songs, Ancient and Modern, Volume 2, 1810.
29. "Ancient Ballads and Songs: Chiefly from Tradition, Manuscripts, and Scarce Works" by Thomas Lyle.
30."The Waukrife Mammy" dated 1830 from a Scottish Chapbook (no publisher given) Printed for the booksellers; Falkirk. From "Two Old Songs- The Perjured Maid, The Waukrife Mammy."
31. Since only two words are different I assume the chapbook version is a reprint of Thomas Lyle's 1827 book "Ancient Ballads and Songs: Chiefly from Tradition, Manuscripts, and Scarce Works."
32. No imprint. The date is verified by Google books, the location is listed as "Edinburgh?" by two sources.
33. I know two English versions with Maid and Soldier text. The best is "Seventeen Come Sunday," sung by Amos Ash of Combe Florey, Somerset, May 1905. From: Henry Hammond Manuscript Collection (HAM/2/1/9).
34. See: Musical Traditions Records' CD notes, 2011 titled "Sarah Makem: As I Roved Out" (MTCD353-5).
35. Information from a bio at the Irish Traditional Musicians Archive. 36. Ritchie was sure of this in her comments at the Mudcat Discussion Forum. I was further corroborated by other recordings in the 1950s made by Peter Kennedy and Diane Hamilton, 1956. The same 2 stanza version was sung by cousin Annie Jane Kelly.
37. This is according to the song notes of Musical Traditions Records' 2011 release titled "Sarah Makem: As I Roved Out" (MTCD353-5).

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Richie
Date: 14 Feb 18 - 02:44 PM

Hi,

Here's the 4th and last installment of "Seventeen" headnotes. It covers English and American versions, children's songs and other relationships. Here is the full text online: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/9-seventeen-come-sunday.aspx I'll try an have my painting done this week- and it will be online too.

4th part: "Seventeen" Headnotes

[The English Tradition
The English descent comes first from "The Maid and Soldier" broadside, a revision made in the late 1700s in Scotland. Three separate printings of the broadside were made c. 1820s in London and Birmingham. About ten years later a different revision titled "Soldier and The Fair Maid" was printed with a different opening and ending. Only two different "Soldier and The Fair Maid" broadsides from Yorkshire and Pocklington have survived. About the same time or shortly thereafter the standard "Seventeen Come Sunday" titled broadsides began to be printed with the same opening stanza (beginning "As I walked out one May morning") as the "Soldier and The Fair Maid." The ending which is sometimes varied slightly is different.

Here is a rare example of the early broadside (Soldier and the Fair Maid) text as sung by Bob Hart, from East Sussex, who was born in 1892 at Sotherton, a village near Halesworth. The following version sung about 1969 is from the recording, "Bob Hart - A Broadside (MT CD 301-2)." This version was probably learned in the early 1900s and is curious because it begins similarly to the Irish version by the Makems:

Seventeen Come Sunday

As I strolled out one May morning,
One May morning so early,
I met a dark and a handsome maid
And, me goodness, she was early--
Chorus: With her rue-dum-dah, whack-fol-lah
Whack-fol-the-riddle-iddle-li-ido

Her shoes were black, her stockings white,
And her buckles shone like silver.
She had a dark and a handsome eye,
And her hair hung down to her shoulders [Chorus]

How old are you, my fair pretty maid,
How old are you, my honey?
She answered me, so cheerfully,
"Oh, I'm seventeen come Sunday [Chorus]

"Could you love me, my pretty fair maid?
Could you love me, me honey?"
She answered me, quite tearfully,
"Oh, I can't because of Mummy [Chorus]

"But if you come to me mother's house
When the moon is shining brightly,
I will come down and let you in,
And Mother shall not hear me [Chorus]

So I went to her mother's house
When the moon was shining brightly.
She did come down and let me in,
And I stayed with her 'til the morning [Chorus]

She said "Young man, will you marry me?"
I said "Oh no, me honey.
For the fife and drum is my delight
And I'm happy as a soldier." [Chorus]

The "early" (fourth line, first stanza) originally was probably "saucy/sassy." It appears to be most closely related to the broadside "Soldier and the Fair Maid," which has an abbreviated ending. Versions related to "Soldier and the Maid" are rare in England. Aside from Hart's and the version by Amos Ash most of the English texts are based on, or similar to, the "Seventeen" broadsides which were widely printed and influenced tradition. This next version was collected by Percy Grainger, a pianist and composer, who collected ballads and folk songs in England during the early 1900s. Grainger collected a number of versions and this was perhaps his best-- it was used for his British Folk Song Setting Nr. 8 tune:

SEVENTEEN COME SUNDAY- from the singing of Mr. Fred Atkinson of Redbourne, Kirt on-Lindsey, Lincolnshire, Sept. 3, 1905

As I rose up one May morning,
One May morning so early,
I overtook a pretty, fair maid
Just as the sun was dawning

CHORUS: With my rue rum ray,
Fother diddle ay,
Wok fol air diddle i-do.

Her stockings white, and her boots were bright
And her buckling shone like silver;
She had a dark and a rolling eye
And her hair hung round her shoulder.

"Where are you going, my pretty, fair maid,
Where are you going, my honey?"
She answered me right cheerfully
"I've an errand for my mummy."

"How old are you, my pretty, fair maid
How old are you, my honey?"
She answered me right cheerfully
"I am seventeen come Sunday."

"Will you take a man, my sweet pretty maid
Will you take a man, my honey?"
She answered me right cheerfully
"I darst not for my mummy."

"Will you come down to my mummy's house
When the moon is shining clearly?"
If you come down, I'll let you in
And me mummy shall not hear me."

I went down to her mummy's house
When the moon shone bright and clearly?
She did come down, and let me in
And I lay in her arms till morning.

"Oh, it's now I am with my soldier lad,
His ways they are so winning.
The drum and fife are my delight
And a pint o' rum in the morning."

This version from Lincolnshire sticks closely to the "Seventeen Come Sunday" broadsides of the 1840s-1880s which helped popularize the ballad. Although it was frequently sung and collected in the late 1800s and early 1900s, a large number of melodies were collected where only a single stanza of text was bothered to be taken down or no text was written down at all. The text was either considered promiscuous or simply commonplace as based on printed broadsides. Certain prominent English collectors including Baring-Gould, Sharp, Hammond, and Kidson left most of the text off. In some of the versions they published-- the text was recreated or edited. Baring-Gould and his associates in Devon collected at least five versions but only one complete text is found in his MS. The text he published in 1892[38] was complete rewritten. Sharp collected at least 20 versions in England and a number in the US. Over a dozen melodies in Sharp's collection have no text or a single stanza. The version[39] he published in 1905 attributed to Lucy White, was in actuality a composite of collected texts, then edited. Composers Vaughan Williams, Butterworth and Grainger all collected versions with Grainger bagging nearly a dozen. These texts too were rarely complete. Because the ballad was considered bawdy and commonplace many good texts may have been missed. The ones that are extant in England are closely aligned to the Seventeen Come Sunday broadsides.

The North American Tradition
The North American tradition is varied and the "How old are you?' stanza and the "Fare thee well" stanza have become attached to other songs. The "Fare thee well" stanza has been adapted and become "Fly Around, my Pretty Little Miss" a play-party song and fiddle tune. Standard versions of "Seventeen" have been collected but most are short or fragments. The early song notes by authors such as Cox (Folk Songs of the South, 1925) and the Brown Collection (Belden and Hudson) associated "Seventeen" with "The Milkmaid" an entirely different courting song with a similar opening line (Where are you going, my pretty maid).

"Seventeen" has been collected in the US & Canada in a wide geographical area but has shown little of the popularity found in the UK. Only traces of the early Scottish form (Waukrife Mammy) have been found (see Sharp A and Eddy B). In North America the ballad is based mainly on the reductions, "Maid and Soldier" and the later reduction "Seventeen Come Sunday." Many of the North American versions are so short, missing critical stanzas, that an identification is impossible. This is the case in earliest extant US version which I've dated c.1850. It appears in Cox's "Folk Songs of the South," 1925:

"Seventeen Come Sunday." Contributed by Miss Bessie Bock, Farmington, Marion County; learned from her grandmother, a lady of Scotch-Irish descent, who learned it when a little girl and who would be eighty years old if now living.

1 "O where are you going, my pretty maid?
O where are you going, my honey? "
She answered me so modestly,
"An errand for my mommie."

2 "How old are you, my pretty maid?
How old are you, my honey? "
She answered me so modestly,
"I'm seventeen come Sunday."

3 "0 where do you live, my pretty maid?
O where do you live, my honey?"
She answered me so modestly,
"In a wee, wee cot with my mommie."

4 "Will you marry me, my pretty maid?
Will you marry me, my honey? "
She answered me so modestly,
"If it weren't for my mommie."

These core stanzas of "Seventeen" are missing both the opening and ending stanzas used for identification. The ballad may date to the late 1700s in North America when it was brought here by settlers but it was not printed and in general has lost its form. There are at least two US versions that are related to the older Scottish Waukrife Mammy tradition. The following version is No. 127, I'm Seventeen Come Sunday in English Folk Songs From the Southern Appalachians by Campbell and Sharp, edited Karpeles, 1932 edition. I've titled this "Sixteen Next Sunday" since "sixteen" is the age found in that and many older US versions. This text has the Scottish archaic ending, with the "moon is shining clearly" stanzas from the first revision, "Maid and Soldier." The opening is similar to standard "Seventeen" broadsides. The "She answered me, te hee hee hee" line is common in America but apparently has its roots in Scotland (see Duncan Williamson's version).

Sixteen Next Sunday- Sung by Mr. GEORGE P. FRANKLIN at Stuart, Va., Aug. 26, 1918. Hexatonic (no 7th)-- Sharp A

1. As I walked out one morning in May
Just as the day was dawning,
There I spied a pretty little Miss
So early in the morning.

Te loo - rey, loo - rey, loo - rey loo,
Te loo - rey, loo - rey Ian dy.

2 Where are you going, my pretty little Miss?
Where are you going, my honey?
She answered me, te hee hee hee,
I'm looking for my mummy.

3 How old are you, my pretty little Miss?
How old are you, my honey?
She answered me, te hee hee hee,
I'll be sixteen next Sunday."

4 If I come to your house to-night,
And the moon is shining clearly,
Will you arise and let me in,
If your mammy does not hear me?

5 I went to her house that night,
The moon was shining clearly;
She arose and let me in,
But her mammy she did hear me.

6 She took her by the hair of the head,
And to the floor she brought her,
And by the help of a hazel rod,
She made one wilful daughter.

7 So fare you well, my pretty little Miss,
So fare you well, my honey.
It's all I want to know of you,
You've got one darned old mummy.

Curiously all of Sharp's versions were collected in an area of Virginia that was featured in George Foss's article (short book), From White Hall to Bacon Hollow (http://www.klein-shiflett.com/shifletfamily/HHI/GeorgeFoss/whall.html). Versions of "Seventeen" have been found in the Appalachians, New England and Maritime Canada and have migrated west to Ohio, Illinois and the Ozarks. The ballad in its pure form (as related to the main British forms) is rare in North America. The following old version is from "Folk Songs of the Catskills," page 482 by Norman Cazden, Herbert Haufrecht, Norman Studer, 1982. This is a fairly complete version related to the first revision "Maid and Soldier" with several changes. It was collected from George Edwards (1877-1949) and his cousin "Dick" Edwards. George was one of Cazden's most important informants. My brief bio follows:

George Edwards was born March 31, 1877 in Hasbrouck, a small place on the Neversink River. George's father, Jehila "Pat" Edwards was a scoopmaker by trade but worked as an unskilled laborer. Pat loved liquor and would sing in bars for free drinks. He died in 1927. George's mother Mary Lockwood was the stable influence in his life. She was a singer, mostly of hymns. She died in 1925. George's cousins were Charles Hinckley and "Dick" Edwards, both singers.

"Where Are You Going, My Pretty Fair Maid?" Sung by George Edwards (1877-1949) and his cousin "Dick" Edwards about 1948; collected by Cazden.

1. Where are you going, my pretty fair maid,
And where are you going my honey
she answered me most modestly,
I'm on an errant for my Granny."

REFRAIN: With my rosy diddler dow, fal de diddle dow,
Whack! the dooey diddle die doe -dow.

2. May I go along, my pretty fair maid
May I go along, my honey?
she answered me most modestly,
I durst not for my Granny.

3. "You come along to my Granny's house
Whne hte wind blows keen and fairly,
I will arise and I'll let you in
My granny will not hear me.

4. Then I went to her Granny's house
When the wind blew keen and fairly;
She arose and let me in.
And her Granny did not hear me. (Refrain)

5. One day I met the pretty fair maid:
"It's cold and stormy weather."
She answered me most modestly,
"I am ondone forever!" (Refrain)

6. Now I have a wife in fair London town,
And why should I disclaim her?
[But] every town that I go in.
Get a girl if I can gain her. (Refrain)

7. Oh, come all you pretty fair maids,
Rises early Monday morning:
The bugle horn is my delight
And the sailor is her darling.(Refrain)

In the US there's a wide assortment of uses of the "Seventeen come Sunday" stanzas including several songs which use floating verses that are based on, or originated from "Seventeen Comes Sunday." Particularly popular is the "How old are you" stanza and another stanza which seems to be derived from the Scottish ending stanza which begins, "Fare thee well my bonnie lass." It has been adapted in the US and has become "Fare thee well my pretty little miss" and then "Fly around my pretty little miss." The "Fly Around" versions are mixed with stanzas from other songs and have become fiddle tunes, dance songs or play-party songs. The following titles are associated with these hybrids:

Fly Around My Pretty Little Miss
Fly Around, My Blue-Eyed Girl (Brown Collection)
Pretty Little Miss
Little Betty Ann (Sharp EFSSA)
Shady Grove (tune/lyrics)
Daisy
How Old Are You My Pretty Little Miss?
Wheevily Wheat (floating title, Lomax, Stith Thompson)
New Orleans (Bertha Beard, NC)

An adaption of the Scottish "Fare thee well" verse is found in The Skillet Lickers' "Fly Around" version on Old-Time Fiddle Tunes and Songs from North Georgia' County CD-3509:

Fare you well my pretty little miss,
Fare you well my honey.
If I'm not there by the middle of the week,
You can look for me on Sunday.

It's clearly taken from "Seventeen" and in the next evolution becomes:

Fly around my pretty little miss,
Fly around my daisy--

Another "Fly Around" song by Justus Begley in 1937 is titled "Fara You Well, My Blue-Eyed Girl" and has:

Fare you well my blue-eyed girl,
Fare you well my daisy

A stanza from Grammy Fish's version of "Seventeen" has the daisy" text[40]:

Where are you going my pretty maid
My little blue-eyed daisy?
I am not going very far
For really I am lazy.

Wheevily Wheat which usually has the "over the water to Charlie" stanza and the "wheevily wheat/ barley" identifying stanza has become a floating title with random associated stanzas-- some with the "How are you" stanzas of "Seventeen." As an example I give the Wheevily Wheat B version from "Round the Levee" edited by Stith Thompson, 1916. He comments:

Another version of "Weevily Wheat," collected by Miss Mary S. Brown of Gatesville, Texas, from Wallace Fogle, a famous play-party singer of Coryell County, runs as follows. The boys and girls line up opposite each other; the boys begin swinging at one end, and girls at the other, each swinging his or her partner.

Way down yonder in the maple swamp,
The water's deep and muddy.
There I spied my pretty little miss,
O there I spied my honey.

How old are you, my little miss,
How old are you, my honey?
She answered with a ha-ha laugh,
"I'll be sixteen next Sunday."

The higher up the cherry tree,
Riper grows the cherry,
Sooner a boy courts a girl,
Sooner they will marry,

So run along home, my pretty little miss,
Run along home, my honey,
Run along home, my pretty miss,
I'll be right there next Sunday.

Papa's gone to New York town,
Mama's gone to Dover,
Sister's worn her new slippers out
A-kicking Charley over.

Wheevily Wheat is a floating title but should have the Wheevily Wheat stanza(s) in it-- in the preceding lyrics Wheevily Wheat does not appear. The last line is a reference to "Bonnie Sweet Prince Charlie" who, in a bizarre twist, is part of Robert Burn's song that introduces "pretty little pink" also related, although randomly, to the "How old are you" songs in the US. "Charlie" is Prince Charles Edward Stewart, 1720-1788 and the related songs have the "Over the water to Charlie" lines. Here's a "Seventeen" version from Oklahoma that has the "Charlie" reference[41]:

My Pretty Maid- sung by Robert L Risinger of Norman, Oklahoma-- no date give, before c.1950.

1. "Where are you going, my pretty little miss?
Where are you going, my honey?
She answered me with a 'Uh, uh, huh,
I'm going home to mommy.'

2. ?How old are you my pretty little miss,
How old are you my honey??
She answered me with a 'Uh, uh, huh,
"I'll be sixteen next Sunday."

3. "Where do you live my pretty little miss,
Where do you live my honey?"
She answered me with a "Uh, uh, huh,
I live at home with mommy."

4. Will you marry me my pretty little miss,
Will you marry me my honey?"
She answered me with a "Uh, uh, huh,
I would if it wasn't for mommy."

5. "Where are you going, my pretty pretty maid?
Where are you going, my darling?
Down to the river to water my geese
and over the river to Charlie."

The following titles are play-party songs that are related by the use of similar floating stanzas:

Bile Dem Cabbage Down
Pretty Little Pink
Charlie's Neat
Coffee grows on white oak trees
Shady Grove

Here are two core stanzas of "Seventeen" used as floating stanzas in Tales and Songs of Southern Illinois by Charles Neely:

Come trip with me, my pretty little miss,
Come trip with me, my honey;
Come trip with me, my pretty little miss;
I'll be sixteen next Sunday.

How old are you, my pretty little miss,
How old are you, my honey?
She answered me with a "Tee, hee, hee"
"I'll be sixteen next Sunday."

Another association with the "How old are you" stanza is found in Child 243 Gypsy David/Davy (House Carpenter). This is the most popular House Carpenter text, as recorded by Carter Family in 1940-- and widely copied (originally recorded by Cliff Carlisle 1939, covers include Bascom Lunsford and later Doc Watson). Here are the first three stanzas, the second is the "How old are you" stanza:

Black Jack David

Black Jack David came ridin' through the woods,
And he sang so loud and gaily.
Made the hills around him ring,
And he charmed the heart of a lady.
And he charmed the heart of a lady.

"How old are you, my pretty little miss?
How old are you, my honey?"
She answered him with a silly little smile,
"I'll be sixteen next Sunday.
I'll be sixteen next Sunday."

"Come go with me, my pretty little miss.
Come go with, me my honey.
I'll take you across the deep blue sea,
Where you never shall want for money.
Where you never shall want for money."

The wide variety of titles songs that have borrowed the floating verses "How old" and "Fare-thee well" is confusing. The 1916 Texas version "Wheevily Wheat, B" was reprinted with additional stanzas by the Lomaxes as "Wheevily Wheat' in their 1940 book American Ballads and Folk Songs. The following example shows a composite of "Seventeen" and "Pretty Little Pink":

"New Orleans" sung by Bertha Hubbard Beard, recorded about 1970s. She was born in 1880 Alexander County, learned from her father.

I'll put my knapsack on my back,
My rifle on my shoulder,
I'll march away to New Orleans
And there I'll be a soldier.
CHORUS: Fal la linka do, oh do oh do,
Fal la linka do, oh di dee.

How old are you my pretty little miss,
How old are you my honey?
She answered me with a modesty,
I'll be sixteen next Sunday.
CHORUS: Fal la linka do, oh do oh do,
Fal la linka do, oh di dee.

Will you marry me my pretty little miss,
How old are you my honey?
She answered me with a modesty,
I'll have to ask my Mommy.
CHORUS: Fal la linka do, oh do oh do,
Fal la linka do, oh di dee.

I'll put my knapsack on my back,
My rifle on my shoulder,
I'll march away to New Orleans
And there I'll be a soldier.
CHORUS: Fal la linka do, oh do oh do,
Fal la linka do, oh di dee.

Well the coffee grows on white oak trees,
And the river flows with brandy
The streets all lined with ten-dollar bills
And the girls aa sweet as candy.
CHORUS: Fal la linka do, oh do oh do,
Fal la linka do, oh da dee.

The "knapsack" stanza is found in several composite versions and has the "soldier" which in the UK was included in the "Maid and Soldier" revision. "Coffee Grows" is a floating stanza usually associated with "Four in the Middle," a play party song. For more information about versions from North America see "US & Canada versions" and the appendix, 9B. Fly Around my Pretty Little Miss.

* * * *

The Case for Censorship
Patrick Weston Joyce, Baring-Gould and Cecil Sharp edited their published texts. James Reeves said this about "Seventeen" in his book The Idiom of the People (1958): "The original of this song, whatever it was, shocked all other editors, from the eighteenth century onwards." In 1958 it's probable that Reeves knew only Burns short version. There are 15 versions in this study (Aa-Ao) and after analyzing them it's clear what the original (the ur-ballad) was or approximately what it was. The ballad in the early original Scot form, Waukrife Mammy, is about a man who by chance meets a saucy young girl as he's "gaun o'er yon hict hict hill (the Highland hills)." He asks the lassie a series of questions which are designed to seduce her. The courtship dialogue reveals, among other things, where she's going, what her age is, and where she lives. At night he goes to see her at her mammy's house, and after lovemaking (Burn's sings, "she wasn't half as saucy"), the cock crows and wakes her mammy. When her mammy takes a coal from the fire to see if she knows him, he pushes her to the fire and runs out to the field to hide from her. The penalty for losing her virginity is a beating by her wakeful mammy with a hickory switch. The daughter is now pregnant in spite of her wakeful mammy.

Certainly the ballad story of a man who seduces a young girl and later serendipitously enters her house at night and takes her virginity was not considered morally acceptable behavior by many people. Patrick Weston Joyce (1827-1914) commented in his 1873 book, "Ancient Irish Music":

"I cannot tell when I learned the air and words of this song, for I have known them as long as my memory can reach back. Some portions of the old song are spirited and well adapted to the air; others are very rude and worthless; and for several reasons it could not be presented to the reader. I give instead, what may be called a new song, in which I have incorporated the best lines of the original, including two verses almost unchanged."

It's not clear whether Joyce is talking about "Seventeen" or the similar "I'm Going to Be Married on Sunday" since that title is associated with a different song. It would seem, however, that the "old song" with the questionable stanzas was the "Waukrife Mammy" version of "Seventeen." Baring-Gould, who knew both the Burns version and the Catnach "Maid and Soldier[42],"assumed it was "Seventeen" and lists Joyce's reworked song as a version. Here's the first stanza of Joyce's "new song" titled "I'm Going to Be Married on Sunday." His reworked text includes only the one key line from "Seventeen":

Twas down in the meadows one morning last spring,
I met a fair maiden who sweetly did sing
She was milking a cow while her clear voice did ring,
"O I'm sixteen years old on next Sunday,
I?m sixteen years old on next Sunday!?

The last line is clearly "Seventeen." The introduction of the girl "milking a cow" is found in a parallel group of different ballads which have different forms and titles, among them "Dabbling in the Dew" and "The Milkmaid."

The English forms of "Seventeen" were themselves censored revisions-- perhaps to make the Scottish text less specific. It is presumed then that "Maid and Soldier" and the "Seventeen" revision were sanitized rewrites of the main story. These revisions were not enough for some collectors. Sabine Baring-Gould, an Anglican priest from Devon, collected several texts including "As I Walked out" sung by Edmund Fry of Lydford, Devon in 1889. Baring Gould also knew Burns' text and a Seventeen broadside text and wrote them in his notebook. His published version (Songs and Ballads of the West, 1892) was reworked, using only just the first stanza here, to produce the recreation "On a May Morning so Early" attributed to Roger Huggins, at Lydford but reworked by Sheppard.

1 As I walked out one May morning,
One May morning so early:
I there espied a fair pretty maid,
All in the dew so pearly.
CHORUS: O! 'twas sweet, sweet spring,
Merry birds did sing,
All in the morning early.

The remainder of text veers further away from tradition and this recreation with its syrupy chorus doesn't resemble tradition at all. Cecil Sharp following Baring Gould example when publishing "I'm Seventeen Come Sunday" by Mrs. Lucy White, of Hambridge in Folk Songs from Somerset: Gathered and Edited with Pianoforte Accompaniment edited by Cecil James Sharp, Charles Latimer Marson, 1905. Sharp writes in his notes:

"The words have been softened and to some extent reconstructed by Mr. Marson."

Not mentioned in Sharp's notes is that Lucy White's melody is a composite of text from different informants. The text is not badly reconstructed by Marson and represents a variant of the standard "Seventeen" broadside text. Gone from the text is any specific reference to premarital sex. The "fair pretty maid" most properly marries the soldier in Sharp's text.

Whether the rationale for censoring texts of "Seventeen" versions by Joyce, Baring-Gould, Sharp and others is justified-- considering the foul murder ballads left untouched that they published-- is a matter of debate. The texts of Waukrife Mammy are not graphic or overtly sexual, since the sexual details are implied-- still the Scottish story itself and the age of the saucy lass who is sometimes just fourteen years old, is a cause of concern.

The Appendices, Associations and Related Texts, Themes
Two appendices have been created that are obviously based on, or similar to "seventeen." 9A. I Love my Love (Owre Yon High, High Hill) is Scottish and has a similar opening and theme as "Seventeen" but a different chorus. 9B. Fly Around My Pretty Little Miss is derived from the Scottish ending stanza (Fare-thee-well my bonnie, bonnie lass) which has been adapted.

A myriad number of associations exist. There are associations of "text" and "theme." The associations of text are primarily centered around the "How old are you?" and "Where are you going?" lines which are ballad commonplaces. Some textual associations exist in ballads with a similar theme. This is the case with the popular song, "The Milkmaid" (also titled "Farmer's Daughter") which begins with a series of similar questions (only first two stanzas which are similar are given):

"Where are you going, my pretty maid?"
"I'm going a-milking, sir," she said,
"Sir," she said, "sir," she said;
"I'm going a-milking, sir," she said.

"May I go with you, my pretty maid?"      
"You're kindly welcome, sir," she said.      
"Sir," she said, "sir," she said;
"You're kindly welcome, sir," she said.

Cox (Folk Songs from the South, 1925) and Belden/Hudson (Brown Collection 1952) grouped "Seventeen" with the Milkmaid-- an entirely different song. Perhaps "The Milkmaid/Farmer's Daughter" and the similar "Dabbling in the Dew" sprang from the opening question, a ballad common place: "Where are you going, my pretty fair maid(bonnie lass)?" The second question
"May I go with you, my pretty maid?" is occasionally but rarely found in "Seventeen" also (see: Jean Orchard's version). The ending of Fish's New Hampshire version has borrowed from "The Milkmaid"-- so there has been some blending.

"My Roving Eye (Ma Rovin' Eye, etc)" is used as a title for several versions of "Seventeen" and its name is derived from the chorus. It was first reported by Ford and that version of Waukrife Mammy dates back to c.1850 in Scotland. A similar chorus is used in some versions (Jeanie Robertson) of the Scottish song, "The Overgate," a different song.

The "How old are you" stanza in the US is found in a number of play-party variants-- most are constructed with floating stanzas from the "Pretty Little Pink/Coffee Grows/Fly Around" family and stanzas from "Seventeen" (see US & Canada Versions for details).

The Relationships with Child Ballads
The two Child ballads that are most closely associated with "Seventeen" are Child 243: The Daemon Lover (Gypsy Davy/House Carpenter) and Child 299: Trooper and the Maid.

The first revision of Seventeen (Maid and Soldier), dated late 1700s, introduces textual elements of Child 299 Trooper and the Maid including the Soldier replacing the lover and the line, "When the moon shines bright and clearly." Presumably the "Maid and Soldier" revision was created to sanitize the bawdy Scottish text and removed the "waukrife mammy" and other bawdy parts of the story. Further evidence of the use of Trooper and the Maid in this first revision is supplied with the addition of stanza 7 of "Maid and Soldier":

7. Oh! soldier, will you marry me?
Now is your time or never,
And if you do not marry me,
I am undone[ruined] forever.

This stanza is found in the "Seventeen" revisions and mirrors the ending of Trooper and the Maid. Francis J. Child seemed reluctant to include Trooper and the Maid in his ouvre of 305 popular ballads but he inserted it near the end as ballad 299. Surprisingly, no mention of "Waukrife Mammy" or any of the "Seventeen" ballads was made in Child's headnotes. The theme of Trooper and the Maid is not similar to the Scottish "Waukrife Mammy." The story as told by Child is[43]:

"A trooper (soldier) comes to the house of his mistress in the evening and is kindly received. They pass the night together and are wakened by the trumpet. He must leave her; she follows him some way, he begging her to turn back. She asks him repeatedly when they are to meet again and marry. He answers, when cockle shells grow siller bells, when fishes fly and seas gang dry."

This parallel but different ballad, Trooper and the Maid, became a small part of the "Seventeen" ballads with the first revision. It would not be until the mid-1900s with Seamus Ennis 1947 version that the two different texts would be blended. An examination of Child 299- B from the early 1800s shows some of the similar text:

'The Trooper' Motherwell's Manuscript, p. 27; from the recitation of Widow Nicol.

1.4: By chance the maid was in the close,
The moon was shining clearly,
She opened the gates and let him in,
Says, Ye're welcome hame, my dearie.

7    'O when shall we two meet again?
Or when shall we two marry?'
'Whem cockle-shells grow siller bells;
No longer must I tarry.'

The "Maid and Soldier" revision of "Waukrife Mammy" was made by the late 1700s in Scotland[44] and it was printed in the 1820s-30s in England. By the mid-1800s versions of "Waukrife Mammy" (see Ford's "My Rolling Eye") had incorporated stanzas from "Maid and Soldier." The two revisions ("Soldier and the Fair Maid" and Seventeen Come Sunday") which were made by c.1840 changed only the beginning and ending of "Maid and Soldier" but did not include more text from "Trooper and the Maid."

A.L. Lloyd, who titled his version of Seventeen, "The Soldier and the Maid" in 1956 on his Tradition album The Foggy Dew and Other Traditional English Love Songs, commented this in the liner notes:

    "The encounter of the licentious soldier with the obliging young girl was an old story when Roman troops patrolled the great wall between England and Scotland. For newer versions, listen to the gossip around any army camp, any day, anywhere. Of the many ballads in the family of The Trooper and the Maid, this is perhaps the best."

This comment by Lloyd and Ennis version "When Cockle Shells" which is a composite- first part "Seventeen" last part "Trooper" have muddied the water and a bridge has been erected between two very different ballads with only a brief sexual encounter in common.

In Child No. 243, James Harris (The Daemon Lover/Gypsy Laddie), there are several stanzas of "Seventeen" that have been found inserted into American versions titled "The House Carpenter" or "Gypsy Davy." This use was already mentioned earlier in the headnotes. Here are the first stanzas of "Black Jack David" obtained from Mr. Frank Irvin, Mascoutah, Illinois[45]:

Black Jack David came riding down the lane,
Singing so loud and gaily,
Making all the woods round him ring
To charm the heart of a lady,
To charm the heart of a lady.

"How old are you, my pretty little miss?
How old are you, my honey?"
She answered me with a smile and kiss,
"I'll be seventeen next Sunday.
I'll be seventeen next Sunday."

"Will you go with me, my pretty little miss?
Will you go with me, my honey?"
She answered me with a smile and kiss,
"I'll go with you next Sunday,
I'll go with you next Sunday."

The "How old" stanza is also in the popular Carter Family/Cliff Carlisle version of Black Jack David which was covered by a number of musicians from the 1940s on. In the US the "How old are you" identifying stanza has been attached to a number of different songs.

Children's Songs: "Haliky Daliky" "Where Are Ye Gaun, my Wee Bonnie Lass," "My Pretty Little Miss"
There are at least three examples of Scottish children's songs (game songs), my I, that originated in the early 1900s. The earliest extant version, Haliky Daliky dated c.1930, was collected by Ewan MacColl who commented in Folkways liner notes, (MacColl and Behan, The Singing Streets, 1958): "A ring game learned in 1957 from Sylvia Rapoport, a 36 year old London housewife who learned it as a child in the Gorbals district of Glasgow." A example of the song can be seen/heard by Stewart Cameron & Phyllis Davison performing a Medley of Scottish Children's Songs on Youtube.

Haliky Daliky

    Where are you going, my bonnie wee lass?
    Where are you going, my dearie?
    Where are you going, my bonnie wee lass?
    A message for my mammy.

CHORUS: Haliky, daliky, daliky dee,
    Haliky, daliky, dearie,
    Haliky, daliky, daliky dee,
    A message for my mammy

MacColl and Seeger also supplied a different version "Where Are Ye Gaun, my Wee Bonnie Lass" that they call a skipping song and ball-bouncing game in their 1986 book "Till doomsday in the afternoon: the folklore of a family of Scots Travellers, the Stewarts of Blairgowrie."

Children's Rhymes: Skipping songs and ball-bouncing game (e):

O, whaur are ye gaun, my bonnie wee lass?
Whaur are ye gaun, my dearie?
Whaur are ye gaun, my bonnie wee lass?
A message tae my mammy.

Chorus: A ha-cha-cha-chee, an' a ha-cha-cha-chaw,
A ha-cha-cha-chee an' a dandy;
A ha-cha-cha-chee, an' a ha-cha-cha-chaw,
A message tae my mammy.

O what is your name, my bonnie wee lass?
What is your name, my dearie?
What is your name, my bonnie wee lass?
My mammy ca's me Nancy.

Can I get a kiss my bonnie wee lass?
Can I get a kiss, my dearie?
Can I get a kiss my bonnie wee lass?
I'll hae tae ask my mammy.

One children's song, "My Pretty Little Miss" was collected by Owens in Texas in 1936. "Swing and Turn: Texas Play-Party Songs." The game instructions follow, "As all sing the first verse they move to the middle of the circle and then outward. They do this movement twice for the four phrases of the song. On the second stanza the boys swing each girl right and left, going around the circle until they reach their original partners."

1. Oh, come along, my pretty little Miss,
Oh, come along, my honey,
Oh, come along, my pretty little Miss,
I'll marry you next Sunday.

2. Oh, come along, my pretty little Miss,
Oh, come along, my honey,
Oh, come along, my pretty little Miss,
I won't be home 'till Monday.

3. How old are you, my pretty little Miss,
How old are you, my honey?
How old are you, my pretty little Miss,
I'll marry you next Sunday.

How old was she?
Although "seventeen" is known as the standard age that the pretty fair maid will be on Sunday, this is not the age in the older versions. The age of "seventeen" became standard after a large number of broadsides titles "Seventeen Come Sunday" or "I'm Seventeen Come Sunday" were printed in England beginning about 1840. In the first print version dated 1795, she is fourteen but will be fifteen:

What is your age, my bonny lass?
What is your age, my honey?
Right modestly she answer'd me,
I'm fifteen years come Sunday.

This is corroborated by other early Scottish versions (see for example Crawfurd). In tradition in North America and the UK her age is usually "sixteen come Sunday." The revisions "Maid and Soldier" to "Seventeen Come Sunday" more properly have her being sixteen and turning seventeen on Sunday.

Many of the Irish versions from the mid-1950s on and some other versions in the UK and US have Monday as her birthday.

* * * *
Some Conclusions
The four forms of A-D represent A, Waukrife Mammy, the original Scottish form from the early 1700s and the three revisions, B-D. The first revision, B, "Maid and Soldier" from the late 1700s introduced minor elements of Child 299, "Trooper and the Maid" into the story and eliminated the waukrife mammy. The last revision "Seventeen Come Sunday" added a happy ending where the maid becomes the soldier's wife and follows him to the battlefield.

Although few early Irish versions were collected, the Irish tradition is similar to the Scottish. Both borrowed from the "Maid and Soldier" and the later tradition in the early 1900s has, in most variants, separated from "Waukrife Mammy." In 1947 Seamus Ennis recorded an Irish variant "When Cockle Shells" (later titled "As I Roved Out") which was composite with Trooper and the Maid. This popular version, disseminated in part through his tradition Irish music radio program of the same name, was covered by a number of artists. Ennis' song entered tradition and a number of variants including "Night Visit" by Christy Moore have been recorded. The version is still popular today. A different version also titled "As I Roved Out" was recorded in Ireland by Sarah Makem. The Makem family long version is a recreation with revision stanzas and one from Waukrife[46]. The Makem version with its colorful chorus was arranged by Joe Heaney (a composite of Makem and Ennis) and sung by Len Graham and others.

The Seventeen ballads usually use a nonsense syllable chorus and have a number of different textual forms-- some with the last two lines repeated, some with the first two, while others repeat the last line after the chorus. Some choruses include "wi' my rovin'/rollin' eye" and a number of versions have been titled after this and other choruses. The choruses printed in broadsides are only one line, I assume as a reference-- in tradition the choruses were always longer. The print authors simply wrote a line indicating a chorus was to be sung-- but didn't write it out in full. This practice is corroborated by the 1795 print which gives the full chorus at the end-- while the first chorus is short.

The "Seventeen" ballads were not popular in North America in their original forms but the "How old" stanza and "Fare-thee-well" (Fly Around) stanza have been used as floating stanzas in play-party/fiddle dance songs. Here's a brief line of descent for the British versions:

British Line of Descent with four forms:

Waukrife Mammy (Scottish tradition/print) late 1600s-early 1700s Form 1>
   Maid and Soldier (tradition/print) late 1700s early 1800s (1st revision) Form 2>
      Soldier and the Fair Maid (print) c. 1830s (2nd revision) Form 3>
         Seventeen Come Sunday (print/tradition) c. 1840 (3rd revision) Form 4>
             As I Roved Out- Ennis (Irish Tradition) 1947 (Composite w/ Trooper and the Maid)
             As I Roved Out- Makem (Irish Tradition)1952 (Composite of several forms)

* * * *

In closing here's a version with core stanzas from down under as sung by Sally Sloane in 1956:
Listen: https://nla.gov.au/nla.obj-214812725/listen

'My Pretty Little Maid' sung by Sally Sloane (1894-1982). Recorded by John Meredith at Teralba, Australia on 16 June and 13 October, 1956.

1. Where are you going my pretty little maid,
Where are you going my honey?
Where are you going my pretty little maid,
Where are you going my honey?
She answered him quite modestly,
On erran' for my mommie.

CHORUS (after each verse): With my tu-rum ra, fal a diddle da,
Right fal-la-diddle dolly die, do.

2. How old are you my pretty little girl,
How old are you my honey, [repeat as before]
She answered him quite modestly,
I'm seventeen come Sunday.

3. Will you marry me, my pretty little girl,
will you marry me, my honey?
She answered him quite modestly,
"I dare not for my Mommie."

4. Will come unto my Mama's house,
When the moon shines bright and clearly?
O, I'll rise up and let you in,
And the auld woman will not hear me.

_____________________

Footnotes:

38. "On a May Morning so Early," an arrangement with rewritten text as taken down by Mr. Sheppard from Roger Huggins, at Lydford (Dartmoor, Devon); published in Songs and Ballads of the West: A Collection Made from the Mouths of the People by Sabine Baring-Gould, 1892.
39. "I'm Seventeen Come Sunday" in Folk Songs from Somerset: Gathered and Edited with Pianoforte Accompaniment edited by Cecil James Sharp, Charles Latimer Marson, 1905.
40. "Hi Rinky Dum," as sung by Grammy Fish of New Hampshire in 1940-- from Country Dance and Song, No. 9, 1978. Also Warner Traditional American Folk Songs and Flanders recording Track 20a, classification #: LAO17. dated 11-16-1940.
41. "My Pretty Maid" sung by Robert L Risinger of Norman, Oklahoma-- no date give, before c.1950. From Ballads and Folk Songs of the Southwest by Ethel and Chauncey Moore, 1964. This version is much older than 1964.
42. Both ballads were written down as versions in Baring-Gould's MS study (see online ).
43. Quoted from "The English and Scottish Popular Ballads," by Francis James Child; Volume 9: Ballads 266-305; Published August/September 1894.
44. This date is proved by the print of 1800, "Lady and the Soldier."
45. From: Tales and Songs of Southern Illinois, page 143, Charles Neely, 1938.
46. Although this has been discussed the family version was an extension of the original two stanzas recorded by Sarah Makem in the 1950s by friends (Clancy brothers) and family.

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Richie
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 02:07 PM

Hi,

Here are the British versions so far, I'm missing a few. If anyone has info about the Amelia and Jane Harris song, "Where Are Ye Gaun" I'd like to see it. Not sure if this version has been found (ref. Emily Lyle). I didn't do every one stanza text available. Any other versions please post.

To see individual texts: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/british--other-versions-9-seventeen-come-sunday.aspx

    Wakerife Mammy- (Ayr) c.1750 T. Lyle
    A Waukrife Minnie- M. Crosbie (Dumf) c.1788 Burns
    Waukrif Mammie- (Edin) 1795 print
    Lady and Soldier- (Edin) 1800 chapbook J. Morren
    Maid and Soldier- (Lon) c.1820 Batchelar broadside
    Waukrife Minnie- (Scot) 1825 Cunningham/Cromek
    Well Pay't Dochter- Wm Orr (Renf) 1829 Crawfurd
    Waukrife Mammy- (Falkirk) c.1830 Chapbook
    Soldier and the Fair Maid- (York) c.1838 broadside
    Seventeen Come Sunday- (Lon) 1840 J Paul broadside
    My Rolling Eye- A. Smith (Perth) c.1850 Ford
    O'er the High, High Hill- Mrs. Thain (Aber) c.1850
    Yon Hech, Hech Hill- Bell Robertson (Aber) c.1860
    Yon High, High Hill- M. Gillespie (Glas) c.1870
    Where Are You Going? Jim Cox (Glou) c.1870 Carp
    Seventeen Come Sunday- T. Bunting (Warw) c.1870
    I'm Seventeen Come Sunday- Hayden (Oxf) c.1870
    As I Gaed Up Yon Hich, Hich Hill- Doe (Aber) 1873
    Rolling eye- Singing Sandy (Scot) 1882 Chambers
    I'm Zebenteen Come Zunday- (IOW) 1886 Long
    North Riding Hiring Song- (Dur) 1886 Kidson
    As I walked out- Edmund Fry(Dev) 1889 Baring Gould
    Seventeen Come Sunday- Wardill (York) 1892 Kidson
    On a May Morning so Early- Huggins (Dev) 1892
    Wi' My Rollin' Eye- Mathieson (Aber) 1897
    Seventeen Come Sunday- H. Hills (Sus) 1899 Merrick
    I'm Seventeen Come Sunday- White (Som) 1904
    I'm Seventeen Come Sunday- W. Spearing (Som) 1904
    I'm Seventeen Come Sunday- Overd (Som) 1904 Sharp
    Seventeen Come Sunday- Fred Atkinson (Linc) 1905
    Seventeen Come Sunday- Amos Ash (Som) 1905
    Owre Yon High, High Hill- Mrs. Grieg (Aber) 1906
    Sixteen Agin' Sunday- Urquhart (Scot) 1906 RVW
    Seventeen Come Sunday- Cranstone (Sus) 1907
    Yon High, High Hill- Robert Reid (Aber) 1907 Greig
    Soldier Lad- William Watson (Aber) 1907 Greig A
    Yon High, High Hill- Mrs. Lyall (Aber) 1907 Greig
    Yon High, High Hill- A. Greig (Aber) 1907 Greig H
    As I Gaed Ower- Spence (Aber) 1907 Greig H
    O Whare Are Ye Gaun- Mrs Milne (Aber) 1907 Greig G
    As I Gaed Ower- V. Davidson (Aber) 1907 Greig J
    Whare Are Ye Gaun- H. Rae (Aber) 1907 Greig M
    O Whare Are Ye Gaun- S Davidson (Aber) 1907 Greig
    Seventeen Come Sunday- J. Hiscock (Hamp) 1908
    Seventeen Come Sunday- W. Cole (Hamp) 1909 Gard
    Seventeen come Sunday- John Brading (Hamp) 1909
    Seventeen Come Sunday- J.Keen (Sur) 1913 Keel
    Rudam Day- Anon (wilt) c.1916 Alfred Williams
    Seventeen Come Sunday- Williams (Glou) 1921 Sharp
    I'm Seventeen 'gin Sunday (Antrim) 1926 Henry A
    Mommie Ca's Me Annie- Alex Robb (Aber) c. 1929
    Seventeen Come Sunday- Sam Bennett (Warw) 1929
    One May Morning- William Hands (Glou) c.1929
    Where Are You Going? B. Wallace (Corn) c.1929
    Yon High, High Hill- John Ross (Delny) c.1929
    Blink O'er the Burn- Alex Troup (Aber) c.1929
    Bonnie Lassie- Peter Christie (Aber) c.1929 Carp
    Weel Paid Dochter - W. Farquhar (Brux) c.1929
    Bonnie Annie- Annie Clark (Aber) pre1929 Carpenter
    Haliky Daliky- S. Rapoport (Glas) c.1930 MacColl
    As I Gaed ower a Whinny Knowe- Allen (Col) 1939
    New Ross Town- Snap Cash (Tip) c.1944 M. Delaney
    When Cockle Shells- Seamus Ennis (Dub) 1947 REC
    As I Roved Out- Sarah Makem (Armagh) 1951 REC
    Field of Barley- Fred Jordon (Shrop) 1952 Kennedy
    My Pretty Fair Maid- C. Scamp (Kent) 1954 Kennedy
    Sixteen Come Sunday- Norman Kennedy (Aber) c.1955
    Seventeen Come Sunday- Harry Cox (Norf) 1956 REC
    The Soldier and the Maid- A.L. Lloyd (Lon)1956 REC
    My Pretty Little Maid- Sally Sloane (AU) 1956
    Seventeen Come Sunday- Bill Smith (Shrop) 1958 REC
    As I Roved Out- Joe Heaney (Dub) c.1960 REC
    Flash Gals and Airy Too- C. Hughes (Dor) c.1962
    Whaur Are Ye Gaun? (Scot) c. 1964 Mudcat A
    Seventeen Come Sunday- MacRobbie (Wig) 1967
    My Rolling Eye- Duncan Williamson (Arg) 1967 REC
    Seventeen Come Sunday- J. Brightwell (Suf) c.1972
    Seventeen Come Sunday- R. Brader (Linc) 1973 Hamer
    The Night Visit- John Riley (Ros) c.1973 C. Moore
    Sixteen Come Sunday- J. Orchard (Dev) c.1975 REC
    Seventeen Come Sunday- Potters (Sus) 1975 Wales
    Sixteen Come Next Sunday- Dhomhnaill (Don) 1976
    Wi' Ma' Rovin' Eye- Ossian (Edin) 1976 REC
    Seventeen Come Sunday- Bob Copper (Sus) 1976
    Seventeen Come Sunday- C. Renals (Corn) 1978 REC
    Seventeen Come Sunday- Walter Pardon (Nor) 1978
    Whaur Are Ye Gaun? Stewarts (Aber) 1986 MacColl
    Seventeen Come Sunday- Freda Black (Hamp) 2012

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 02:29 PM

Hi Richie,
The Harris song has no noted text in the collection. That title appears at the end of the song lists along with 8 others not noted. Perhaps the collector thought they were too common to be of any interest. Kaye McAlpine in the intro suggests certain songs in Greig-Duncan but we can't be certain in most cases. Here's the list:
1. Nae Dominie for me (well known)
2 Whaur are ye gaen
3. Sailor Laddie
4. Banks of the Nile (well known)
5. The Duke of Gordon had &c. (well known) (3 daughters)
6. The bonnie Sailor Laddie
7. A lang Cravat
8. Feckless fanny.

Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Richie
Date: 17 Feb 18 - 11:33 AM

TY Steve- too bad the song text was not transcribed.

Here's the final list of US texts, I'm missing the end stanzas of "Yaddle Laddle," from Ruth Crawford Seeger's 1948 book, American Folk Songs for Children-- anyone have that text? Here' a link to the US versions and headnotes: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/us--canada-versions-9-seventeen-come-sunday-.aspx

    My Pretty Maid- Bessie Bock (WV) c.1850 Cox
    New Orleans- Bertha H. Beard (NC) c.1894 REC
    That Blue-Eyed Girl- Fletch Rymer (NC) 1898 Brown
    Sixteen Come Sunday- Flora McDowell (TN) c.1905
    Way Down Yonder- Mary Brown (TX) 1916 Thompson
    Sixteen Next Sunday- G. Franklin (VA) 1918 Sharp A
    Sixteen Next Sunday- F. Richards (VA) 1918 Sharp B
    Sixteen Next Sunday- L. Cannady (VA) 1918 Sharp C
    Sixteen Next Sunday- S. Reynolds (VA) 1918 Sharp D
    Sixteen Come Sunday- L. Jones (NC) 1918 Sharp MS
    Sixteen Come Sunday- Connolly (NC) 1918 Sharp MS
    Seventeen Come Sunday- (NC) c.1919 Brown A
    The Modesty Answer- Hatfield (WV) 1928 Cox
    Pretty Little Girl- Mrs. Bair (OH) c.1931 Eddy A
    Sweet Little Honey- Mrs. Topper (OH) c.1931 Eddy B
    My Pretty Little Miss- (TX) 1936 Owens
    Way Down Yonder- Nancy Trivette (KY) 1936 Owens
    Weevily Wheat- Uncle Dave Macon (TN) 1938
    Hi Rinky Dum- Fish (NH) 1940 Warner/Flanders
    Where Are You Going? Glasscock (NC) 1943 Brown B
    Sixteen This Sunday- S. Luther (NH) 1945 Flanders
    Where Are You Going? Edwards (NY) c.1948 Cazden
    One Sunday Morning- Susie Barlow (UT) 1948 Hubbard
    Yaddle Laddle- Gant Family (TX) 1948 Seeger
    I'll Be Seventeen Come Sunday- Gilkie (NS) 1949
    Where are You Going? B. Ritchie (KY) c.1950 REC
    I'm Scarce Sixteen Come Sunday- Duncan (NS) 1950
    As I Rode Out- Hartlan (NS) 1950 Creighton B
    Scarce Sixteen- Mrs. Hartlan (NS) 1950 Creighton C
    My Pretty Maid- Robert Risinger (OK) c.1950 Moores
    Seventeen Come Sunday- H. Morry (NL) 1951 Peacock
    Rocky Mountain- Rufus Crisp (KY) c.1953 REC
    How Old Are You? Fred High (AR) 1953 Parler A
    Where are you going? A. Dornan (NB) c.1954 Creighton
    Seventeen Come Sunday- Samms (NL) 1960 Peacock
    How Old Are You? P. Seeger (NY) 1960 Lomax
    How Old Are You? C. Bowman (AR) 1960 Parler B
    Where Are You Going? Hammons (WV) 1970 Howard

This concludes the brief study of "Seventeen"- the headnotes are considered "rough drafts" and will be proofed again later. TY to Steve Gardham and others who have contributed to this thread. Significant is the total of 15 versions of Waukrife Mammy where previously only the Burns and maybe the Lyle were recognized- both incomplete.

I need to finish the painting of the song and the Appendices- both in progress. Please post any missing texts on this thread.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Richie
Date: 17 Feb 18 - 04:51 PM

Hi,

I started work today on the first appendix, 9A. I Love my Love (As I Cam' Owre Yon High, High Hill) Roud 5548. It is currently under construction. I give the first part of my headnotes hoping for some comments and posts with related "Roving Bachelor" texts. I have the texts from Sam Henry, and one broadside text.

Headnotes

[This rare Scottish dialogue ballad with the "I Love my Love" chorus has a series of related questions similar to those posed in "Seventeen" ballads. Although the courting questions are similar at least one question, "Will you take a man?" is held in common. The same or similar questions are asked in "The Roving Bachelor" and the two Scottish courting ballads, "Seventeen" and "Roving Bachelor," which may have borrowed form each other. The two extant versions with the "I Love my Love" chorus were collected by Grieg and Duncan in the early 1900s but are obviously much older. Greig-Duncan B, taken from Bell Roberston is titled "As I Cam' Owre Yon High, High Hill," and uses the opening Scottish stanza from "Seventeen Come Sunday." Robertson's chorus appears:

CHORUS: But I love my love and I love my love,
And I love my love most dearly
My whole delight's in her bonnie face,
And I long to have her near me.

Here's the first version from The Greig-Duncan Folk Song Collection which was collected by Rev. Duncan from his sister, Mrs. Margaret Gillespie (1841-1910) later of Glasgow. It's date is estimated at c.1870 but it may be older.

I Love my Love- sung by Margaret Gillespie; collected Duncan on September 2, 1909, version A.

CHORUS: I love my love as I love my life,
An' I love my love most dearly
My whole delight's in her well- faured face,
An' I long to have her near me.

The first thing I asked of her,
Where did her father dwell, O
And the answer she gae to me,
Was, "Between the cloods and hell, O."
CHORUS:

The next thing I asked of her,
Was, if she wad tak a man,
And the answer that she gave to me,
Was, "Files [sometimes] noo and than, O."
CHORUS:

The next thing I asked at her,
If she wad marry me,
And the answer she gae to me,
"I think I'm better free, O."
CHORUS:

This version, from Bell Robertson was first published by Ord in his Bothy Songs and Ballads. Ord does not name the informant but it's clearly the same text as Grieg B, as taken from Bell Robertson about 1906. The first stanza is the same as the Scottish versions of "Seventeen," and bears the same title.

As I Cam' Owre Yon High High Hill

1. As I cam' owre yon high, high hill,
I met a bonnie lassie,
She looked at me and I at her,
And wow, but she looked saucy.

CHORUS: But I love my love and I love my love,
And I love my love most dearly
My whole delight's in her bonnie face,
And I long to have her near me.

2. The first thing I asked of her,
What was her father's name?
But the answer she gave to me,
"Ye're a curious man to ken."
CHORUS:

2. The next thing I asked of her,
Did he live here about?
And the answer she gave to me,
"His peat-stack stand thereout."
CHORUS:

3. The next thing I asked of her,
Gin she wad take a man,
But the answer she gave to me,
"'Tis nocht but what I can."
CHORUS:

4. The next thing I asked of her,
Gin wad she marry me?
But the answer she gave to me,
"If you and I agree."
CHORUS:

5. Then fare ye weel, mu bonnie lass,
May joy and peace be wi' ye,
And ye'll be on a better tune,
When I come back to see ye.
LAST CHORUS: But I love her yet, I love her yet,
I love her yet most dearly
My whole delight's in her bonnie face,
And I long to have her near me.

These verses found similarly in "Seventeen" are also found in "Roving Bachelor" in the same form. The following version of Roving Bachelor collected by Crawfurd was taken from John Smith of Lochwinnoch, Renfrewshire in 1827. Since Smith married in 1783 this version probably dates back to the late 1700s. The questions begin with stanza 9.

THE OLD BACHELOR

1 I am a man unmarried
And has been all my life
Now I am resolved
For to go seek a wife

2 Such a wife I must have
Is scarce for to be found
And such a wife I must have
Scarce walks upon the ground

3 A bonnie a braw wife
A wife with meikle gear
If I dinna get a bonnie wife
I'll want another year

4 A bonnie wife if she be na gude
She is gude companie
And if she be gude
Slio is pleasant to the ee

5 If I marry a tall one
I am sure she'll crack my crown
And little women is peevish
They'll pull a strong man doun

6 If I marry a black one
The lads will laugh at me
And if I marry a fair one
A cuckle I am sure to be

7 If I marry a young one
She'll ruin me with pride
And if I marry an old one

8 But as I was musing Mark
what came to pass
In my sight appeared
A handsome tall young lass

9 The first question that I speired at her
What was her name
The answer she gave to me
Was modesty and fame

10 The next question that I asked her
If she was a maid
And the answer that she gave to me
I was once what you said

11 The next question that I asked her
If she was one just now
And the answer she gave to me
And I may be one for you.

12 The next question that I asked her
If she wad take a man
And the answer she gave to me
A little now and then

13 The next question that I asked her
If she wad marry me
And the answer that she gave to me
It's no be what may be

14 The green it is a bonny thing
Till ance it gets a dip
And he that courts a bonnie lass
Is sure to get the slip

The same tune was used by Robert Burns for his "Handsome Nell," a tribute to Nelly Kilpatrick, daughter of a farmer near Dalrymple. Burns says the tune is "I Am A Man Unmarried (Old Bachelor)." From the Scots (Johnson's) musical Museum Volume VI, song 551, page 570, here is the opening stanza of 'O once I lov'd':

    'O once I lov'd a bonnie lass,
    An' aye I love her still
    an' whilst that virtue warms my breast
    I'll love my handsome Nell.'

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Richie
Date: 19 Feb 18 - 12:01 PM

Hi,

At this point I'm through with the rough drafts of the headnotes for the two Appendices:

9A. I Love my Love (As I Cam' Owre Yon High, High Hill)-- Roud 5548 http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/9a-i-love-my-love-owre-yon-high-high-hill.aspx

The second headnotes (missing a list of the versions) is long and I won't post here.

9B. Fly Around My Pretty Little Miss-- Roud 5720 http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/9b-fly-around-my-pretty-little-miss.aspx

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Richie
Date: 19 Feb 18 - 12:32 PM

Hi,

Hi, here's a short excerpt from 9B. Fly Around My Pretty Little Miss. Curiously this section deals Waukrife Minnie and two other songs given by Burns.

* * * *

The Scottish Evolution and the Attraction of Like Stanzas

Assuming that "Fly Around" was derived from the "Fare-thee well, my bonnie, bonnie lass" stanza found in Scottish versions of "Seventeen (Waukrife Mammy)," then it could be associated with similar stanzas. Stanzas of "Seventeen" have appeared along with other floating stanzas in versions with the "Fly Around" stanza (see Stith Thompson's version above). Another Scottish stanza from a different source is associated with "Fly Around." The similarly worded[11] "Pretty Little Pink" stanza was first reported by Burns in his song, "Here's to Thy Health, My Bonnie Lass," which he gave to Scots' (Johnson's) Musical Museum about 1797. The song is about a man bidding farewell to his former lover who he claims, perhaps because of his failed relationship, to care little about. The 2nd Burns stanza[12], obviously borrowed from tradition, appears thus:

O dinna think my pretty pink,
But I can live without thee:
I vow and swear, I dinna care
How lang ye look about ye.

"Pink" in this case seems to be a reference to a pink flower. The text borrowed by Burns from Scottish tradition where it was "well known in Ayrshire when Burns was a child ( mid-1700s)[13]," has been found associated with "Fly Around" and other floating stanzas in the United States. The first extant publication of "Pretty Little Pink" as a song was in 1883 by W. W. Newell in "Games and Songs of American Children," No. 175, from East Tennessee. Newell adds: "The manner of playing [game instructions] has not been obtained." The stanza, a variation of Burns' stanza is included with two associated floating stanzas of North American origin.

"Pretty Little Pink"

My pretty little pink, I once did think
That you and I would marry,
But now I've lost all hope of that,
I can no longer tarry.

I've got my knapsack on my back,
My musket on my shoulder,
To march away to Quebec town,
To be a gallant soldier.

Where coffee grows on a white-oak tree,
And the rivers flow with brandy,
Where the boys are like a lump of gold,
And the girls as sweet as candy.

Wells mentions: "In another version, Mexico was substituted for Quebec." In other versions[14] "New Orleans" [see Beard's version of "Seventeen"] is substituted for Mexico. The other stanza "Coffee grows" is also associated with another play-party song titled, "Four in the Middle." Here's an example of Wells' text collected by James Mooney in North Carolina about the same time[15]:

My pretty little pink I once did think,
That you and I would marry,
But now I've lost all hope of that,
I can no longer tarry.

I've got my knapsack on my back,
My musket on my shoulder,
To march away to Mexico,
To be a gallant soldier.

Where coffee grows on a white oak tree,
And the rivers flow with brandy,
Where the boys are like a lump of gold,
And the girls as sweet as candy.

Mooney printed these lyrics as an example of a children's "song game" and included these notes[16]: "One song of this kind was obtained from a lady living on Oconaluftee River, who had sung it when a child at her old home near Murphy, in the extreme southeastern corner of the state . . . . The lady had forgotten the details of the game, but remembered that one girl, presumably the "pretty little pink," stood in the centre, while the others marched around her singing the song. She said it had a very pretty tune, which she had forgotten . . . . The lady stated, however, that as she had known it the children said "Quebec Town" instead of "Mexico," which might indicate that the first part of the song goes back as far as the French and Indian war." p.104.

A comparison[17] of the "Pretty Little Pink" stanza by Burns, Wells and Mooney can be made to other Pretty Little Pink stanzas:

    From Bradley Kincaid:
"I reckon you think my pretty little miss
That I can't live without you
But I'll let you know before I go
That I care very little about you"

    From Mother Goose:
"My little pink I suppose you think,
I cannot do with out you.
I will let you know before I go,
How little I care about you."

    From Vance Randolph:
"My purty leetle pink I used to think
I couldn't live without you
But I'll let you know before I go
Thet I don't keer much about you."

The pervasive "pink" stanza extended also to singers in the African-American community. Here's Thomas W. Talley's version of "Pretty Little Pink" collected in the early 1900s (from the 1966 Kennikat edition of "Negro Folk Rhymes," p 127):

PRETTY LITTLE PINK

My pretty liddle Pink, I once did think,
Dat we-uns sho' would marry;
But I'se done give up, Hain't got no hope,
I haint got no time to tarry.

I'll drink coffee dat flows
From oaks dat grows,
'Long de river dat flows wid brandy.

A variation of the "Pink" stanza found in tradition[18] was recreated by Sara Martin (born 1884) and Richard M. Jones (born about 1890) in their "Late Last Night." According to Joseph Scott[19], "The lyrics they submitted to the Library Of Congress had "(The oldest blues in the world)" written at the bottom, and included:

"Now come my little pink, come tell me what you think
You're long time making up your mind
I distinctly understand that you love another one
So how can your heart be mine"

This different stanza with "Pretty Little Pink," found in folk and blues songs, shows that it has become a ballad commonplace. The "Fly Around" title appears as "Fly Around My Pretty Little Pink" in Tennessee Ernie Ford's 1959 recording that also has the Burns' stanza. "The traditional Appalachian stanzas of "Pretty Little Pink" were also commonly found mixed with "Fly Around" and sung as a song. Bradley Kincaid, from Kentucky, adapted this from existing verses[20] to create this "Pretty Little Pink" composite. He published another similar version with the 'Wheevily Wheat" stanzas in his "Favorite Old-Time Songs and Mountain Ballads," book 2, 1929, p. 16-17. This is from his 1929 recording[21]:

PRETTY LITTLE PINK

Lor, Lor, my pretty little Pink
Lor, Lor, I say
Lor, Lor, my pretty little Pink
I'm going to stay away

Cheeks as red as a red, red rose
Her eyes as a diamond brown
I'm going to see my pretty little miss
Before the sun goes down

CHORUS: Fly around my pretty little miss
Fly around my daisy
Fly around my pretty little miss
You almost drive me crazy

Well I reckon you think my pretty little miss
That I can't live without you
But I'll let you know before I go
That I care very little about you.

It's rings upon my true love's hands
Shines so bright like gold
I'm gonna see my pretty little miss
Before it rains or snows [Chorus]

When I was up in the field of work
I sat down and cried
Studying about my blue eyed gal
Thought [to] my soul I'd die

[2nd Chorus] Fly around me pretty little miss
Fly around my dandy
Fly around my pretty little miss
I don't want none of your candy

Every time I go that road
It looks so dark and cloudy
Every time I see that girl
I always tell her, "howdy."

Coffee grows on white oak trees
The river flows with brandy
Rocks on the hills all covered with gold
And the girls all sweeter than candy. [2nd chorus]

I'll put my knapsack on my back
My rifle on my shoulder
I'll march away to Spartanburg
And there I'll be a soldier. [2nd chorus]

Every time I go that road
It looks so dark and hazy
Every time I see that girl
She almost drives me crazy [2nd chorus]

I asked that girl to marry me
And what did she say?
She said that she would marry me
Before the break of day [2nd chorus]

Kincaid's version uses the two "Fly Around" stanzas as choruses. Kincaid's version published in his 1929 booklet adds the following two Charlie' stanzas associated with "Wheevily Wheat[22]" to the core stanzas above:

Charlie is a nice young man
Charley is a dandy
Every time he goes to town
He buys the ladies candy

I don't want none of your weazely [wheevily] wheat
I don't want none of your barley
Want some flour in half an hour
To bake a cake for Charlie.

The "Wheevily Wheat" stanzas given by Kincaid are part of the play-party song "Over the River to Charlie" which curiously brings us back to Robert Burns again:

O'er the Water to Charlie[23]

Come boat me o'er, come row me o'er,
Come boat me o'er to Charlie;
I'll gie John Ross anither bawbee
To ferry me o'er to Charlie.

       We'll o'er the water, we'll o'er the sea,
       We'll o'er the water to Charlie;
       Come weel, come wo, we'll gather and go,
       And live and die wi' Charlie.

Above are the first stanza and chorus of this Jacobite song, an ode to "Charlie" who was Prince Charles Edward Stewart (1720-1788), the Pretender, known as "Bonnie Prince Charlie." Again Burns text, especially the first stanza and chorus, is taken from tradition. Jean Ritchie's version, adapted from her father, Balis Ritchie, combines "Pretty little Pink" and "Charlie's neat."

Over the River To Feed My Sheep

Charlie's neat, Charlie's sweet,
Charlie he's a dandy
Charlie, he's the very lad,
That stole my striped candy

[Chorus] Over the river to feed my sheep
Over the river Charlie
Over the river to feed my sheep
And to measure up my barley

My pretty little Pink, I once did think
I never could do without you
Since I lost all hopes of you
I care very little about you [Chorus]

Don't want your wheat, I don't want your cheat
And neither do I want your barley.
I'll take a little of the best you've got
To bake a cake for Charlie. [Chorus]

Thus we see the curious combination of Scottish stanzas taken from tradition and by Burns' hand transcribed. Curiously, Burns also published the first version of "Seventeen" in 1790 titled "Waukrife Minnie."

Footnotes:

11. pretty little pink= pretty little miss, "pink" being a nickname from a flower.
12. Two stanzas are grouped as one so it could be regarded as the second half of the first stanza.
13. From Burns' sister, the exact quote from "The Kilmarnock Edition of the Poetical Works of Robert Burns" by Robert Burns, ?William Scott Douglas - 1896 appears: "The sentiments are just those one might suppose his muse would have suggested during his earlier days at Loohlea; and yet Mrs. Begg, the poet's sister, has expressed her belief that this was an old production, well known in Ayrshire when her brother was a child."
14. Beard's version is related to "Pretty Little Pink" and "Seventeen" but does not have the "Fly around" stanza.
15. As collected and printed by James Mooney, "Folklore of the Carolina Mountains," The Journal of American Folklore, Vol. 2, No. 5 (April-June, 1889), p.104.
16. Ibid-- the notes were edited and appeared in a Mudcat Discussion Forum post.
17. These examples were posted on the Mudcat Discussion Forum (see Pretty Little Pink" thread) and there are many more.
18. This different association which appears similarly with the text "I understand you love another man" is found, for example, in the I.D. Stamper version.
19. Blues researcher Joseph Scott post this on the Mudcat Discussion Forum (find: Google search).
20. See; "Betty Anne" sung by Mrs. Ellie Johnson, NC, dated 1916 and published in Sharp's English Folk Songs from the Southern Appalachians, 1917.
21. Pretty Little Pink - GE 15740, Bradley Kincaid in April, 1929-- Gennett was located in Richmond, Indiana.
22. Although "Wheevily Wheat" stanzas are of British origin, the term "wheevily wheat" has been traced back to the early 1800s in America.

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Richie
Date: 22 Feb 18 - 03:39 PM

Hi,

Tennessee Ernie Ford's "Fly Around My Pretty Little Pink" on "Gather Ground" in 1959 also had Burn's stanza:

I reckon you think, my pretty little pink,
That I can't live without you
I'll let you know before I go
That I care very little about you.

* * * *

Although "Swing a Lady" (see Sharp EFFSA II, 1932 as collected in KY in 1917 and Ritchie's family version) does not have the "Fly Around" stanza, it's part of the extended Seventeen family. Here are the first two stanzas:

Cedar Swamp (Swing a Lady)- from Cora and Alice Turner of Pine Mountain, Kentucky, 1927.

Way down yonder in the cedar swamp,
The water's deep and muddy,
There I saw my pretty little miss,
There I kissed my honey.

"How old are you, my pretty little miss,
How old are you, my honey?
How old are you, my pretty little miss,
"Sweet sixteen next Sunday."

It's clear that Wheevily Wheat B from Texas (1916 Thompson's "Round the Levee") is closely related to "Swing a Lady" and it does have the "Fly around" stanza. Not sure if "Swing a Lady" (Round 7408) is in the DT.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Richie
Date: 22 Feb 18 - 04:54 PM

Hi,

Here's one version titled, Fly Around My Pretty Little Pink, sung by Manuel Dewey about c.1961. It's from "Ark" Records (45-EP229 CP 8570) of Cincinnati, Ohio sung by a Renfro Valley Barn Dance singer and banjo player nicknamed Old Joe Clark. Ark Records was founded in Cincinnati in the early '60s by Roy Shepard and Bob Lanham, both of whom enjoyed a number of releases on the imprint.

John Lair hired Manuel Dewey in 1942 at the Renfro Valley Barn Dance and named him "Old Joe Clark" after a Clay County, KY man of ill-repute who the song was supposedly titled after. Recorded on stage live at Renfro Valley, KY-- no date but c. 1961. CP 8570 had three songs: Fly Around My Pretty Little Pink/Pig Home In The Pen/Mountain Dew. This is the first song.

As a side note, I have two of my paintings hanging in the Kentucky Music Hall-of-Fame museum there in Renfro Valley.

Fly Around My Pretty Little Pink- sung by Manuel Dewey (known as Old Joe Clark) about 1961.

[Chorus] Fly around my pretty little pink,
Fly around my daisy,
Fly around my pretty little pink,
You almost drive me crazy.

The higher up the cherry tree,
Riper grows the berries,
Sooner you court the pretty little girls,
The sooner you will marry. [chorus]

Never marry a girl you know[1]
They're all too much money,
Just get you one with two straight eyes
To kiss and call you honey. [chorus]

1. Clark stumbles on the word here and runs them into the next line.

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 22 Feb 18 - 05:02 PM

hi Richie,
have you got all of the broadside versions of 'Roving Bachelor'? There's one in the NLS but it's not on their website. I have 4 different English versions (one on the Bodl).

Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Richie
Date: 22 Feb 18 - 10:54 PM

Hi,

I have one broadside version, maybe you can email me the earliest one you have. The Roving Bachelor is related to "Seventeen" in Bell Robertson's version of 'I Love my Love,' Roud 5528. The questions posed in 'I Love my Love' are the same as those found in Roving Bachelor. 'I Love my Love,' related to Seventeen only in Roberston's version, is a variant of Wanton Lad/Roving Bachelor, Roud 1649. Here's the text William Walker sent James Francis Child in 1891-- I presume to consider for inclusion in ESPB. It never made it as one of the 305, however, perhaps it should have- and may be a study some day.

The Wanton Lad

I've been a wanton
A wanton a' my life
And I am resolved
To go and seek a wife
   [missing, unknown syllable chorus (See Greig Duncan C)]

The first thing that I asked her
Wad I convey her hame
The answer that she gaed to me
I wish to walk my lane

The next thing that I asked her
Was gin she was a maid
An' the answer that she gave to me
I once was one she said

The next thing that I asked her
Was she a maid just noo,
The answer that she gave to me
I'm sure I'm one for you.

The next thing that I asked her,
Was where did she dwell,
An' the answer that she gave me
Was, atween Heaven and Hell.

A better version of Walker's text is given in Greig/Duncan- version C. Roud gives other versions of 5528 which are Roud 1649.

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Richie
Date: 22 Feb 18 - 11:24 PM

Hi,

Here are transcriptions of two recordings of Clint Howard's version of "Fly Around" titled, "Pretty Little Pink." Since Howard sings it, I assume it's his song although Doc may have contributed. The earliest recording is from "Original Folkways Recordings of Doc Watson and Clarence Ashley, 1960-1962," dated 1960. Ralph Rinzler played Doc's solo for 15-year-old David Grisman who was inspired by the recording of this song. Eventually some thirty years later (1997), Grisman teamed up with Doc to record "Doc & Dawg." A second recording, "Old timey concert (1967)" was made with essentially the same performers: Doc Watson with Clint Howard, lead vocal- guitar, Fred Price, fiddle. Guitarist and singer Clint Howard, born in 1930, was a farmer from Mountain City, Tennessee.

Here are the two recordings which differ only with one stanza:

Pretty Little Pink- from "Old timey Concert" dated 1967, recorded in Seattle, WA, with Doc Watson and Clint Howard, lead vocal guitar, Fred Price, fiddle.

[CHORUS] Fly around, my pretty little pink
Fly around my daisy,
You slighted me and broke my heart
You almost drive me crazy.

[fiddle]

I wish I was an apple,
A hangin' on a tree,
I wish some girl would come along
And take a bite of me. [chorus]

[doc's solo]

Yonder stands my own true love,
You reckon how I know,
I tell her by her underclothes
A-hanging down so low. [chorus]

[fiddle]

Every time that I go home,
I do the best to please her,
The more I try the worse she gets,
I'll be durned if I don't leave her.[chorus]

[Doc's solo]

Yonder stands a pretty little girl,
She's all dressed in red,
I looked down and I seen her feet,
And I wished my wife was dead. [chorus]

_______________________

PRETTY LITTLE PINK- 1960 recording made in Saltville, VA; Doc Watson with Clint Howard vocal/guitar, Fred Price, fiddle, Jack Johnson banjo.

CHORUS: Fly all around my pretty little pink,
Fly all around my baby,
You slighted me and broke my heart,
You almost drove me crazy.

VERSE 1:
When I was a little boy,
A-playin' in the ditches,
Now I am a big grown man,
Wearing Pappy's britches.

VERSE 2:
Yonder stands my own true love,
You reckon how I know,
Tell her by her under clothes,
Hangin' down so low.

VERSE 3:
Every time that I go home,
I do the best to please her,
The more I try the worse she gets,
Durned if I don't leave her.

VERSE 4:
Yonder stands a pretty little girl,
She's all dressed in red,
I looked down and I seen her feet,
And I wished my wife was dead.

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Richie
Date: 22 Feb 18 - 11:52 PM

Hi,

This last version with the "Pretty Little Pink" text was probably the work of a professional arranger. It does have the Burn's stanza from the 1700s as the second stanza-- a stanza widely found in tradition in the US just as Burns also took it from tradition.

Fly Around My Pretty Little Pink- sung by Tennessee Ernie Ford in 1959, from the album "Gather Ground."

Her checks are red as a red, red rose,
Her eyes are diamond brown,
I'm goin' to see my pretty little girl,
Before the sun goes down.

[Chorus] Fly around my pretty little pink,
Fly around my daisy,
Fly around my pretty little pink,
You almost drive me crazy.

[break] [Chorus variation]

I reckon you think, my pretty little pink,
That I can't live without you
But I'll let you know before I go
That I care very little about you.[Chorus]

Every time I go that road,
It looks so dark and cloudy
every time I see that gal,
I always tell her howdy.

Coffee grows on the white oak trees,
The rivers runs with brandy,
Rocks on the hillside covered with gold
And the girls as sweet as candy. [Chorus]

I'll put my knapsack on my back,
My rifle on my shoulder,
To march right down to Mexico,
And there I'll be a soldier. [Chorus]
* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Richie
Date: 23 Feb 18 - 12:00 AM

Hi,

I'll conclude the "Fly Around" examples with his brief excerpt from my US headnotes:

* * * *
Versions of "Fly Around" have been called "composites" by the Brown Collection editors and others but unfortunately, they do not have any idea what the original stanzas are and have not supplied its provenance. Simply stated, "Fly Around, My Pretty Little Miss" is derived from "Seventeen" and those stanzas would be part of the original. This original would have been formed in the US south shortly after arrival in the New World by British immigrants. The date could be as early as the late 1700s and no later than the early 1800s. Since the original stanzas do not tell a story and are randomly arranged-- "Fly Around" is simply a courting song, not a ballad. The original stanzas include these from the four forms of "Seventeen" mixed with other floating stanzas from other courting songs. I've taken the following stanzas from US versions of "Seventeen" instead of British ones:

[opening] As I walked out one morning in May
Just as the day was dawning,
There I spied a pretty little Miss
So early in the morning. [Sharp A, 1918, Virginia]

[opening] Way down yonder in the Maple [Cedar] swamp,
The water's deep and muddy.
There I spied my pretty little miss,
O there I spied my honey. [Thompson, 1916 Texas]

[Core] How old are you, my pretty little Miss?
How old are you, my honey?
She answered me, te hee hee hee,
I'll be sixteen next Sunday." [Sharp A, 1918, Virginia]

[Core- Identifying- original form] So fare you well, my pretty little Miss,
So fare you well, my honey.
It's all I want to know of you,
You've got one darned old mummy. [Sharp A, 1918, Virginia]

[Core] Will you marry me my pretty little miss,
Will you marry me my honey?"
She answered me with a "Uh, uh, huh,
I would if it wasn't for mommy." [My Pretty Maid, Oklahoma before c.1950.]

[Core Variant] Will you marry me, my pretty little Pink?
Will you marry me, my honey ?
Will you marry me, my pretty little Pink?
I'll marry you next Sunday. [Tennessee, about 1930 Henry A]

[Core variant] "Where are you going, my pretty pretty maid?
Where are you going, my darling?
Down to the river to water my geese
and over the river to Charlie." [My Pretty Maid, Oklahoma before c.1950.]

These fundamental stanzas from US versions of "Seventeen" are some of the presumed original stanzas of "Fly Around" and include several courting questions.

* * * *

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 23 Feb 18 - 09:01 AM

Richie, it's Roud 5548 not 5528. Personally I don't see any reason why Child might even have considered it.

Broadsides, they're all about 1820-30 and all slightly different so I'll send all 4.

Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 23 Feb 18 - 09:13 AM

100

Subject: RE: Origins: Seventeen Come Sunday/Waukrife Mammy
From: Richie
Date: 24 Feb 18 - 03:49 PM

Hi,

TY Steve.

These are the versions of "Fly Around My Pretty Little Miss," they may be accessed here: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/us--canada-versions-9b-fly-around.aspx

The main headnotes are complete (rough, not final edit): http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/9b-fly-around-my-pretty-little-miss.aspx

A. "Daisy," a two stanza fragment from The Journal of American Folk-lore, 1892 as taken from Lila W. Edmands' article, "Songs From the Mountains of North Carolina."
B. "That Blue-Eyed Girl." Sung by Fletch Rymer, a banjo-picker, in "The Beats" near the mouth of Newfound Creek in Buncombe county. Collected by Lunsford in 1898 and published in Brown Collection of NC Folklore, Volume 3, 1952.
C. [Shady Grove, B]. No title given, listed as Shady Grove B; from Kentucky; mountain whites; MS. of Mr. House; 1905. From E.C. Perrow, Songs and Rhymes from the South; The Journal of American Folklore, 1916.
D. "Way Down Yonder (Wheevily Wheat B)" collected by Miss Mary S. Brown of Gatesville, Texas, from Wallace Fogle, a famous play-party singer of Coryell County; from "Round the Levee" edited by Stith Thompson, 1916.
E. "Betty Anne" sung by Mrs. Ellie Johnson, NC, dated 1916, collected Cecil Sharp and published in his English Folk Songs from the Southern Appalachians, 1917.
F. "Fly around, my blue-eyed miss." Reported by I. G. Greer from the singing of Mrs. N. J. Herring of Tomahawk, Sampson county. Highly composite. My date, title, from Brown Collection of NC Folklore, Volume 3, 1952.
G. "Daisy." Communicated by Mildred Peterson of Bladen county, probably in 1923, from the Brown Collection on NC Folklore, volume 3, version A of Coffee Grows. Cf. 1893 version in JOAFL.
H. "Western Country"- Sung and played by Henry Whitter, of Virginia (harmonica, guitar and vocal). From the Okeh recording No. 40077 made April, 1924.
I. "Blue-Eyed Girl," by fiddler Charlie Bowman and The Hillbillies of Virginia, January 1926, NYC. From Vocallion recording No. 5017.
J. "Fly Around My Pretty Little Miss." From the Columbia recording 15210-D made by Frank Blevins and His Tar Heel Rattlers on November 8, 1927.
K. "Your Blue Eyes Drive Me Crazy." From Victor recording 21645 dated August 5, 1927 by West Virginia Coon Hunters for Ralph Peer at Victor Records "Bristol Sessions."
L. "Susanna Gal." From Victor recording 21130 recorded at Bristol session August 3, 1927 by Dad Blackard's Moonshiners. The Blackard and Shelor families were well known singing families in the early 1900s.
M. "Fly Around my Pretty Little Miss," From the Columbia recording 15709-D made October, 1928 in Atlanta, Georgia. This was a duo fiddle version with six stanzas and a floating chorus was made by the Atlanta, Georgia string band, The Skillet Lickers with Riley Puckett on guitar and vocals along with a Clayton McMichen and Gid Tanner on fiddle.
N. "I'm Going To Georgia." From the Victor recording 21645 B by Tenneva Ramblers in Atlanta, GA on Saturday, February 18, 1928. The Tenneva (from Tenn and Va) were Jack Pierce,f; Jack Grant, bj-md; Claude Slagle, bj; Claude Grant, g/v. They backed Jimmie Rodgers briefly and also recorded as Grant Brothers.
O. "Pretty Little Pink." From the Supertone recording 9666 by Bradley Kincaid at Richmond, Indiana, October 1929. Adapted from Sharp's "Betty Anne" published in 1917 (EFSSA), Kincaid created this "Pretty Little Pink" composite. He published another similar version with the "Wheevily Wheat" stanzas in his "Favorite Old-Time Songs and Mountain Ballads," book 2, 1929, p. 16-17.
P. "My Pretty Little Miss" no informant named From William Owens' 1936 book "Swing and Turn: Texas Play-Party Songs."
Q. "Oh, Fly Around, My Pretty Little Miss." Sung with banjo by O. L. Coffey of Shulls Mills, N. C. Recorded at Blowing Rock, N. C., 1936, by John A. Lomax; "Play and Dance Songs and Tunes" AFS L9 - Library of Congress.
R. "Fly Around My Blue-Eyed Girl," sung by Theophilus G. Hoskins of Leslie (Hyden, KY) on 10-14, 1937. From Kentucky Alan Lomax Recordings, 1937-1942.
S. "Fare You Well, My Blue-Eyed Girl," sung by Justus Begley of Perry (Hazard County), Kentucky on 10-17, 1937. From Kentucky Alan Lomax Recordings, 1937-1942.
T. "Shady Grove," no informant named, collected Edna Lucille Miller in Watauga County, North Carolina; from Miller, A Study of Folklore in Watauga County, North Carolina (1938).
U. "Fly Around my Blue Eyed Girl" No title. Collected from James York, Olin, Iredell county, in August 1939. From Brown Collection of NC Folklore, Volume 3, 1952, version B.
V. "Fly Around my Pretty Little Miss." Contributed in 1939 by Otis Kuykendall of Asheville. From Brown Collection of NC Folklore, Volume 3, 1952, version C.
W. "Blue-Eyed Girl," sung by Rufus Crisp of Allen KY, with banjo. From a 1946 recording titled Rufus Crisp on Folkways Records FA 2342 released in 1972.
X. "Fly Around My Pretty Little Miss," sung banjoist George Pegram of Oak Ridge, and harp player Red Parham of Leicester, NC, recorded in Swannanoa NC, 1946; Digital Appalachia recording.
Y. "Fly Around, My Pretty Little Miss," banjo and vocal by Lee Sexton, c. 1948. From the Smithsonian Folkways album. Mountain Music of Kentucky. Lee Sexton was born in 1928 in Letcher County, Kentucky.
Z. "My Blue-Eyed Girl," sung by Lawrence Eller of Upper Hightower, Georgia as recorded by Art Rosenbaum, December, 1977.My date, from the Art Of Field Recording Volume 1.
AA. "Blue-eyed Girl," sung by Jim Couch of Harlan, Kentucky collected by Leonard Roberts, 1954. From Roberts, "Sang Branch Settlers," p.168.
BB. "Fly Around my Blue-Eyed Girl," played on piano and sung by Hobart Smith of Saltville, VA in August, 1959. From Virginia Traditions: Blue Ridge Piano Styles, 1981.
CC. "Fly Around My Pretty Little Pink," sung by Tennessee Ernie Ford.. From the album "Gather ground," 1959.
DD. "Fly Around My Pretty Little Miss," sung by Frank Proffitt, c. 1959; from Warner Collection, Vol. 2: Nothing Seems Better to Me - The Music of Frank Proffitt and North Carolina.
EE. "Pretty Little Pink,"- sung by Clint Howard of Mountain City, Tennessee, from "Old timey concert" dated 1967, recorded in Seattle, WA, with Doc Watson and Clint Howard, lead vocal guitar, Fred Price, fiddle; also Original Folkways Recordings of Doc Watson and Clarence Ashley, 1960-1962.
FF. "Fly Around My Pretty Little Pink," sung by Manuel Dewey (known as Old Joe Clark) about 1961. From "Ark" Records of Cincinnati, Ohio, 45-EP229 CP 8570.
GG. "Fly Around," sung w/banjo by Sheila Kay Adams of Madison, NC on September 6, 1976 at Swannanoa, NC. From Digital Appalachia; http://dla.acaweb.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/Warren/id/1663/rec/22
HH. "Fly Around My Pretty Little Miss," sung by Peter Gott of Sodom Laurel, North Carolina, Feb. 19, 1977. From Digital Appalachia: http://dla.acaweb.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/Warren/id/1240/rec/1
II. "Fly Around my Little Betty Ann," sung by Cas Wallin of Sodom Laurel, NC in 1979. From Digital Appalachia: http://dla.acaweb.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/Warren/id/2061/rec/3
JJ. "Little Betty Ann." Sung by Dellie Norton at her home in Sodom Laurel, Madison County, NC, 29.8.80. From Yates: Musical Traditions MTCD 324 ('Far in the Mountains 4').
KK. "Little Betty Ann." Sung by Inez Chandler at her home in Marshall, Madison County, NC, 28.8.80. From Yates: Musical Traditions MTCD 324 ('Far in the Mountains 4').
LL. "Fly Around My Blue Eyed Girl," played and sung by Ballard “Pappy” Taylor from Kentucky with Tommy Taylor guitar, 1989. Digital Appalachia: http://dla.acaweb.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/berea/id/4984/rec/17
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Richie