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BS: how can you be other than an extremist?

Big Al Whittle 11 Jan 18 - 03:43 AM
Mr Red 11 Jan 18 - 04:06 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Jan 18 - 04:15 AM
Senoufou 11 Jan 18 - 04:25 AM
Doug Chadwick 11 Jan 18 - 04:48 AM
Dave the Gnome 11 Jan 18 - 04:58 AM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Jan 18 - 05:03 AM
Dave the Gnome 11 Jan 18 - 05:10 AM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Jan 18 - 05:40 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Jan 18 - 05:57 AM
Senoufou 11 Jan 18 - 06:13 AM
Dave the Gnome 11 Jan 18 - 06:15 AM
Raggytash 11 Jan 18 - 06:19 AM
Steve Shaw 11 Jan 18 - 06:28 AM
Senoufou 11 Jan 18 - 06:31 AM
Dave the Gnome 11 Jan 18 - 06:41 AM
Steve Shaw 11 Jan 18 - 06:43 AM
Raggytash 11 Jan 18 - 06:45 AM
Mr Red 11 Jan 18 - 06:46 AM
Raggytash 11 Jan 18 - 06:48 AM
Steve Shaw 11 Jan 18 - 06:50 AM
Steve Shaw 11 Jan 18 - 06:51 AM
Senoufou 11 Jan 18 - 07:55 AM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Jan 18 - 08:19 AM
Raggytash 11 Jan 18 - 08:30 AM
Steve Shaw 11 Jan 18 - 10:00 AM
Bill D 11 Jan 18 - 10:08 AM
Jackaroodave 11 Jan 18 - 10:35 AM
Dave the Gnome 11 Jan 18 - 10:51 AM
Jackaroodave 11 Jan 18 - 11:02 AM
Greg F. 11 Jan 18 - 11:06 AM
Greg F. 11 Jan 18 - 11:17 AM
Senoufou 11 Jan 18 - 11:27 AM
JMB 11 Jan 18 - 11:31 AM
Senoufou 11 Jan 18 - 11:51 AM
Jackaroodave 11 Jan 18 - 11:55 AM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Jan 18 - 12:09 PM
Mr Red 11 Jan 18 - 12:21 PM
Jim Carroll 11 Jan 18 - 12:30 PM
Dave the Gnome 11 Jan 18 - 12:32 PM
Steve Shaw 11 Jan 18 - 12:44 PM
Senoufou 11 Jan 18 - 12:45 PM
Senoufou 11 Jan 18 - 12:48 PM
Steve Shaw 11 Jan 18 - 12:54 PM
Senoufou 11 Jan 18 - 01:05 PM
Donuel 11 Jan 18 - 01:11 PM
Steve Shaw 11 Jan 18 - 01:42 PM
Senoufou 11 Jan 18 - 01:58 PM
Joe Offer 11 Jan 18 - 03:42 PM
Donuel 11 Jan 18 - 04:19 PM
Dave the Gnome 11 Jan 18 - 05:10 PM
Steve Shaw 11 Jan 18 - 05:38 PM
Senoufou 11 Jan 18 - 05:55 PM
Steve Shaw 11 Jan 18 - 06:49 PM
Mr Red 11 Jan 18 - 07:35 PM
robomatic 11 Jan 18 - 11:08 PM
Joe Offer 12 Jan 18 - 12:02 AM
Dave the Gnome 12 Jan 18 - 03:27 AM
Joe Offer 12 Jan 18 - 04:12 AM
Dave the Gnome 12 Jan 18 - 04:21 AM
Steve Shaw 12 Jan 18 - 05:01 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Jan 18 - 06:12 AM
Dave the Gnome 12 Jan 18 - 06:22 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Jan 18 - 06:30 AM
Steve Shaw 12 Jan 18 - 06:44 AM
Raggytash 12 Jan 18 - 06:48 AM
Dave the Gnome 12 Jan 18 - 06:50 AM
Steve Shaw 12 Jan 18 - 07:01 AM
Raggytash 12 Jan 18 - 07:22 AM
Raggytash 12 Jan 18 - 07:30 AM
Dave the Gnome 12 Jan 18 - 07:36 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Jan 18 - 07:49 AM
Dave the Gnome 12 Jan 18 - 08:00 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Jan 18 - 08:25 AM
Joe Offer 12 Jan 18 - 09:03 AM
Dave the Gnome 12 Jan 18 - 09:28 AM
Steve Shaw 12 Jan 18 - 10:14 AM
Vashta Nerada 12 Jan 18 - 10:41 AM
Steve Shaw 12 Jan 18 - 10:43 AM
Jackaroodave 12 Jan 18 - 12:49 PM
Vashta Nerada 12 Jan 18 - 12:54 PM
Jackaroodave 12 Jan 18 - 01:09 PM
Joe Offer 12 Jan 18 - 08:28 PM
Steve Shaw 12 Jan 18 - 08:31 PM
Big Al Whittle 12 Jan 18 - 08:41 PM
Joe Offer 12 Jan 18 - 08:55 PM
Steve Shaw 12 Jan 18 - 08:56 PM
Joe Offer 12 Jan 18 - 09:02 PM
Donuel 12 Jan 18 - 10:13 PM
robomatic 13 Jan 18 - 01:23 AM
Dave the Gnome 13 Jan 18 - 03:00 AM
Joe Offer 13 Jan 18 - 03:28 AM
Dave the Gnome 13 Jan 18 - 04:52 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Jan 18 - 05:24 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Jan 18 - 05:32 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Jan 18 - 06:12 AM
Dave the Gnome 13 Jan 18 - 06:41 AM
Steve Shaw 13 Jan 18 - 07:06 AM
Steve Shaw 13 Jan 18 - 07:10 AM
Raggytash 13 Jan 18 - 07:20 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Jan 18 - 07:36 AM
Iains 13 Jan 18 - 07:55 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Jan 18 - 08:50 AM
robomatic 13 Jan 18 - 09:31 AM
Donuel 13 Jan 18 - 10:29 AM
Big Al Whittle 13 Jan 18 - 11:04 AM
Raggytash 13 Jan 18 - 11:10 AM
Greg F. 13 Jan 18 - 11:33 AM
bobad 13 Jan 18 - 11:52 AM
Greg F. 13 Jan 18 - 12:14 PM
Jackaroodave 13 Jan 18 - 01:22 PM
Jackaroodave 13 Jan 18 - 01:24 PM
Big Al Whittle 13 Jan 18 - 05:10 PM
robomatic 13 Jan 18 - 09:21 PM
Jackaroodave 13 Jan 18 - 10:45 PM
Joe Offer 14 Jan 18 - 03:20 AM
Dave the Gnome 14 Jan 18 - 03:46 AM
Joe Offer 14 Jan 18 - 04:00 AM
Dave the Gnome 14 Jan 18 - 05:00 AM
Jackaroodave 14 Jan 18 - 05:06 AM
Dave the Gnome 14 Jan 18 - 09:41 AM
Senoufou 14 Jan 18 - 09:52 AM
Dave the Gnome 14 Jan 18 - 10:05 AM
Senoufou 14 Jan 18 - 10:08 AM
Greg F. 14 Jan 18 - 11:08 AM
Steve Shaw 14 Jan 18 - 01:50 PM
Senoufou 14 Jan 18 - 02:19 PM
Dave the Gnome 14 Jan 18 - 05:09 PM
Steve Shaw 14 Jan 18 - 06:10 PM
Raggytash 14 Jan 18 - 08:42 PM
Dave the Gnome 15 Jan 18 - 03:01 AM
Senoufou 15 Jan 18 - 03:36 AM
Joe Offer 16 Jan 18 - 01:30 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Jan 18 - 05:36 AM
Greg F. 16 Jan 18 - 09:03 AM

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Subject: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 03:43 AM

Recently someone was accused of being an extremist. something my Dad was accused of in his lifetime, and I sympathised.

The fact is, when you've racked up a few years - the things you've seen are so at variance with the accepted facts that you are very isolated.

I don't really know what the answer to this is.

its just a rather sad observation.


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Mr Red
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 04:06 AM

The problem is words morph. Especially when comics like the Sun & Star get hold of them.
An extremist to me would be someone practicing violence. Anyone advocating violence would these days be dubbed so, but in reality would be a seditious.
Even then I would think think it should be reserved for terrorism.

But such is the nature of things anyone in favour of the death penalty might get the accolade.

Words often mean what people want them to mean. Hence we have divided nations in the UK (& US and who knows where else).

And there is a word factory (or did I mean fake tory?) in the White House.


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 04:15 AM

In today's world, the social ides of Christ would have been considered extremist - and probably jailed as a rabble-rousing agitator (didn't Woodie Guthrie already point that out?)
All too often 'extremism' is used by extremists (like the neo-Nazi lady due to go on trial for racism) to quash common-decency based ideas - such as fairness and equality
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Senoufou
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 04:25 AM

The trouble with the word 'extremism' is that it begs the question 'in comparison to what?'.
As Jim says, it all depends what the 'mainstream' are subscribing to at any one time. Jesus was an out-and-our rebel, both to the Romans and the official Jews.

I think 'non-conformist' could cover it a little, meaning someone who doesn't go with the flow of the majority of a population.
If one lived in Saudi Arabia (shudder!) and one kept banging on about being allowed to wear shorts in the street or having an extra-marital affair, one would be labelled an extremist. (and promptly executed)

When my father was fighting in WW2, any conscientious objectors were persecuted and spat on. They were extremists because they were anti-war.
I agree with Big Al - when one is old and has seen a lot, one has a different view of the world to that of younger, more ardent yet more inexperienced folk.


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 04:48 AM

It's one of those special verb conjugations:

I am right;
You are wrong;
He is an extremist.

DC


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 04:58 AM

If you are very anti-extremist can you be seen as an extreme moderate and therefore be anti-yourself?

Just wondering

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 05:03 AM

No Dave.
Extremists are the minority at the edges of a distribution.


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 05:10 AM

An extremist can be one who is extreme in action rather than ideology. One who, for instance, posts the same twaddle over and over again on an internet forum much to the chagrin of the other members.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 05:40 AM

An extremist can be one who is extreme in action rather than ideology

Yes but they need not be.
Of course a person with extreme views is an extremist whether or not their behaviour is extreme.

A moderate person who posts mainstream views on a forum would be seen by extremists as posting twaddle to the chagrin of the extremists on the forum.

The anomaly here is that the extremists dominate certain threads to the chagrin of normal decent mainstream people who find their views marginalised.


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 05:57 AM

"Extremists are the minority at the edges of a distribution."
Like the German National Socialist Party, do you mean!!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Senoufou
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 06:13 AM

Who actually decides what constitutes 'decent' behaviour or views?
In Victorian times, 'decent' meant covering up the legs of pianos!
I can remember when gay folk were seen as disgusting and never-to-be-mentioned. 'Decent' people were heterosexual.
I've noticed that over the decades, some so-called 'extremists' have often had a very valid axe to grind.
I'm always wary of labelling a group or an individual. Things are usually much more complex than we think.


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 06:15 AM

One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Raggytash
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 06:19 AM

You could be an extreme reactionary ............






.................. anyone recognise anyone??


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 06:28 AM

Unless you're talking about people who cut other people's heads off in public, or things like that, it isn't a very useful word to use unqualified.


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Senoufou
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 06:31 AM

My old father would have said that anyone trying to be rational, flexible and understanding of other views was 'wishy-washy' and 'lacking in moral fibre'. He would have exploded with rage at all the PC stuff flying about nowadays. Making him in a sense an extremist...

I also remember the early days of modern feminism. We women were seen as extremists, challenging the very fibre of paternalistic society.
Now (so my very feminist sister tells me) feminists are turning against each other and forming factions, especially with regard to the LGBT and transgender debates. I thought burning my bra was extremely extreme, but it seems not...


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 06:41 AM

I thought burning my bra was extremely extreme

Surely that would depend on the size.

I'll get my coat...

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 06:43 AM

I hope you took it off first...


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Raggytash
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 06:45 AM

Merely using the dictionary definition Steve!

reactionary
r?'ak?(?)n(?)ri/Submit
adjective
1.
opposing political or social progress or reform.
"reactionary attitudes toward women's rights"
synonyms:        right-wing, conservative, rightist, ultra-conservative; More
noun
1.
a reactionary person.
"he was later to become an extreme reactionary"
synonyms:        right-winger, conservative, rightist, diehard, Colonel Blimp; More


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Mr Red
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 06:46 AM

In Victorian times, 'decent' meant covering up the legs of pianos!

I think that was for fashion, craze, decoration, dust, and to prevent scuffing. It may have been somewhat of a joke. The covering of ankles was a different issue that from the distance of time, we conflate the two.

Urban Myth.

But as has been mooted, life was a lot more nuanced. Take the Victorian practice of mistresses and wife selling. The latter was probably more a way of common law cheapo divorce and with the agreement of all parties. The public sale price being spent by all three celebrating in the local alehouse. Thomas Hardy was a novelist, after all, not a documentarian.


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Raggytash
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 06:48 AM

I particularly liked the Colonel Blimp reference !!


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 06:50 AM

I meant extremist in my post, Raggytash, not reactionary. Sorry about that!


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 06:51 AM

"One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter."

The terrorist is the man with the small bomb.


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Senoufou
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 07:55 AM

Hahaha! In those days, it wasn't much of a conflagration - I was very skinny and tiny. Nowadays, one would need to send for the Fire Brigade.

I concur with Dave's point, that if one is very anti-extremism, one could perhaps be called extreme in turn.

At the risk of being called wishy-washy by my late very reactionary pa, I personally believe that fiery and fixedly-held views are dodgy. They prevent reflection and assessment. They also engender hatred and condemnation of other groups, which may or may not be the best way forward.

In Moral Philosophy, we were taught about 'self-evident truths'. I used to silently disagree. Almost any so-called 'truth' can be challenged.
There are probably only a small number of ideas, statements and tenets with which most people (but not all!) would agree. One needs to review constantly ones ideas and to listen attentively even to the extremists in order to understand and adjust ones opinion.


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 08:19 AM

"Extremists are the minority at the edges of a distribution."
Like the German National Socialist Party, do you mean!!!


Exactly Jim.


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Raggytash
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 08:30 AM

Exactly Jim ........................ all 8.5 million of them !!


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 10:00 AM

The people at the edges of a distribution curve are not extremists. They are the people at the extremes. Adults who are six foot six or more or four foot ten or under are at the extremes of a distribution curve of heights. They are not extremists. If I pass twelve GCSEs and five 'A' Levels all with A-star grades I am at one extreme of the range of achievement but I am not an extremist. So, Keith, try to not be so extremely silly.

(I didn't do nearly as well as that, I hasten to add).


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 10:08 AM

"I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice! And let me remind you also that moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue!

   Barry Goldwater-1964

The conversation then devolved into a debate over his views of 'liberty' and 'justice', which were not exactly mainstream.

As to bra burning, I remember a quote from way back where a mother said,
"I don't know what to think. My 11 year old wants me to buy her a bra, and my 16 year old wants to burn hers."


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Jackaroodave
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 10:35 AM

Not to dampen the hilarity, but bra-burning never happened. I was there when it was debunked in the late 60s, early 70s, and since then feminists have again and again rebutted the canard.

I did not know, however, how the urban legend got started. Snopes has the story here:

the origin of the bra-burning urban legend


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 10:51 AM

rebutted the canard

Is that anything to do with a ducks arse?

:D tG


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Jackaroodave
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 11:02 AM

Pretty funny :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 11:06 AM

Goldwater? As we said at the time: "In your guts, you know he's nuts." In addition, hat was hardly his most ridiculous statement.


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 11:17 AM

In fairness, Barry wasn't a total nut case:

I am frankly sick and tired of the political preachers telling me as a citizen that if I want to be a moral person, I must believe in A, B, C, and D. Just who do they think they are? And from where do they presume to claim the right to dictate their moral beliefs to me? I am warning them today: I will fight them every step of the way if they try to dictate their moral convictions to all Americans in the name of "conservatism.”

- Barry Goldwater


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Senoufou
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 11:27 AM

You weren't there in Edinburgh Jackaroodave when I most certainly DID burn my (tiny) bra, along with several other mad lassies.
My superior younger sister has never, ever worn one!


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: JMB
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 11:31 AM

I once stated on my opinion on a politics page in which I indicated that I think Canada should be a republic rather than a constitutional monarchy. There was someone who was a generation ahead of me who was an extremist for the monarchy. They totally disregarded everything I said and didn't reply appropriately, stating that it wasn't worth commenting on and that my opinion didn't matter. They said that I am against authority, law and order and that I was irrational and supported everything that was evil in the world. I thought that Canada was supposed to be a democracy and supported equality and social justice, as well as
support for separation of church and state; and a monarchy even though it's a figurehead doesn't really represent these values to me. There is also the amount of money and publicity that goes into the royals when there are countless people who are homeless or in deep levels of poverty and there isn't enough money nor media coverage going towards them in my opinion. In fact, this upcoming royal wedding has them wanting to clear out the homeless people from the streets, because it is an eyesore and makes the royals look bad.


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Senoufou
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 11:51 AM

It wasn't the royals themselves who suggested this clearance, but Simon Dudley, the Conservative Leader of Royal Borough of Windsor and Maidenhead Council, without even consulting his fellow Council members!.
(He owns two massive houses worth £5m and was skiing in the Rocky Mountains at the time this nastiness broke.)
He copied his poison to Theresa May and the Police Chief of Thames Valley Police while he was on this expensive holiday.

I would imagine that the royals are very annoyed and embarrassed by all this. If so, it would be wise of them to publicly say so, and detach themselves from this judgement of homeless people.


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Jackaroodave
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 11:55 AM

No, I wasn't, Senoufou. And I may have missed some occurrence in a corner of the US. But the legend of aggrieved feminists burning their bras at the 1968 Miss America Pageant and sparking a national trend was utterly false and repeatedly invoked to discredit and ridicule the movement.


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 12:09 PM

Steve,
The people at the edges of a distribution curve are not extremists. They are the people at the extremes.

OK. If you prefer, delete all my references to "extremists" and replace with "extreme people" or "people at the extreme."

My case remains unchanged.


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Mr Red
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 12:21 PM

Barry Goldwater-1964

In your heart you know he's right. In your guts you know he's nuts.


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 12:30 PM

"It wasn't the royals themselves who suggested this clearance, but Simon Dudley, the Conservative Leader of Royal Borough of Windsor and Maidenhead Council, without even consulting his fellow Council members!."
If the couple abide by the Council's wishes they will be endorsing it
One Prince has taken part in a marathon on behalf of the homeless, another is an active sponsor of a homeless charity.
At least someone from Buck House needs to express an opinion on the suggestion
The Dook of E never seems to have a problem in ruffling feathers when it comes to his sometimes offensive opinions
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 12:32 PM

Extremists are people who have either extreme views such as Stalinists,fascists or flat earthers; or those that perform extreme acts such as burning places and killing people. Other than the odd religious fruit cake, racist or homophobe I have never come across an extremist on this forum. There are plenty of diverse political views from across the spectrum but they are all, in the main, just a broad slice of normal characters. Some may seem extreme because they are viewed from the other end of the range but no-one on here is an extremist. Apart from Keith who is extremely annoying.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 12:44 PM

I once burned my sandals. Not because I'd decided to morph into a right-wing Telegraph-reading reactionary, but because I was standing too close to a fumarole in the crater of a volcano...


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Senoufou
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 12:45 PM

It all depends on where one is standing though Dave. Saying someone has an extreme view is merely an opinion voiced from the other side of the fence. Who is the arbiter?
Killing people seems to us to be extreme, but many Brits would be glad to advocate killing members of Isis. Look at the intense debates on capital punishment. Many folk would be glad to see paedophiles hanged.
These are extreme standpoints in a way.

I've been accosted in Tesco by an extremist, fundamentalist, heavily-veiled Bangladeshi-born Muslim lady who knows my husband is a Muslim. She bangs on and on about how we are NOT married until I convert to Islam and have a wedding in the mosque.
She's an absolute pain, but since I can see her point of view, I can smile faintly and carry on putting packets of crumpets in our trolley.
My sister though would let her have it with both barrels.


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Senoufou
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 12:48 PM

Hahaha Steve! I bet you were hopping mad!


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 12:54 PM

I was, literally. It burned most of the tread offa me soles!


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Senoufou
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 01:05 PM

(Sorry about thread drift)
Did the fumarole give off stinky gas Steve? I'm amazed when people plod around on active volcanoes, as I'd have thought the sulphurous gases would be absolutely lethal.


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 01:11 PM

In America leftist Democrats are generally called radicals and the extreme right wingers are called extremists.


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 01:42 PM

It did. It was in the Solfatara volcano, near Naples. The large crater is more or less level with the surrounding area and you can just walk in (not free!). There are boiling mud pools and a large number of viciously-hissing fumaroles in there and, as I found out, some very hot ground. The crater is the site of the martyrdom of San Gennaro in 305 AD. He's the patron saint of Napoli and, somewhat gruesomely, his bones are all too visibly sticking out of a large urn in the crypt of the cathedral. The crater is about ten miles out of Naples, in the town of Pozzuoli. It's on the metro line out of Naples. Watch your pockets!   

Sadly, a young boy and his parents died in the Solfatara a few months ago when they fell into a pit of boiling mud. The lad had ignored a safety barrier. The volcano last erupted in 1198 when surface rainwater reacted with magma near the surface, whst vulcanologists call a phreatic eruption. It isn't far from Vesuvius but it's not on the same magma field.


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Senoufou
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 01:58 PM

Ah! That's fascinating Steve. I did read about that poor lad who ignored the sign and fell into the boiling mud.
Shame about your sandals. Did you have blisters?
I do hate it when churches 'abroad' have gruesome bits of saints on view. The church in Corfu has the remains of Saint Teodora, and one can kiss the skull if one waits in a queue. (I didn't)
I do apologise for this hijacking of a thread. I just like to find out about everything. Sorry!


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 03:42 PM

St. Stephen's Cathedral in Budapest has "The Holy Dexter." If you go to the side chapel and put a coin into the slot, a light goes on and you can see the preserved right hand of St. Stephen, first king of Hungary.

But back to extremism and away from extremities...

I used to think of myself as a liberal; but somewhere along the way, I got interested in the idea of consensus politics. It seems to me, that things don't work very well unless they are supported by the vast majority of people. Otherwise, things go back and forth according to the vagaries of majority vote, and nobody is satisfied for very long.

But if I think of what I hold to be important, I still come out quite liberal (by U.S. standards). The ideals I seek are:

Unrestricted international borders and immigration
Equal employment opportunity and pay for all races and genders
Strict procedures to eliminate racial and gender imbalance
Heavy taxation of those with obscenely high income
Free education through all levels
Guaranteed subsistence income for all
Government-paid healthcare
Subsidies for the arts and public broadcasting


And so forth. But my belief in consensus, demands that none of my ideals can become law until they are accepted as reasonable by the vast majority of people. If my ideals are not accepted, then it's up to me to sell them until they become acceptable.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 04:19 PM

Joe you sound like;
Love me. love me love me, I'm a liberal.
Phil Ochs


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 05:10 PM

The RC cathedral at Westminster has an entire preserved saint - John Southworth if I remember rightly. It was pretty extreme what they did to him! Lovely cathedral. Very Italian in style.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 05:38 PM

My mum has always said that if all the true relics of the cross were really true you'd have enough wood for Epping Forest!

I've seen several lots of saints' bones in Italy since our 2013 trip to Naples. The other thing you see in Italian churches is some kind of depiction of a skull, often complete with crossbones.

I felt the heat but jumped away before I got burned, Senoufou. My sandals were never the same again and I wore them just for gardening after that. The brand was Source, made in Israel. I still have an old pair that act as slippers when we go on holiday. Sadly, you can't get them here any more. I did get severely bitten by mosquitos in the Solfatara. I still have a scar on my leg to prove it. We'd been in the same area a month earlier and I'd escaped without a single bite, so the little buggers must have seen me coming. Grrr!


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Senoufou
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 05:55 PM

Glad you weren't badly burned Steve.
Aren't mosquitoes absolute little sods? They really love me, and I've been terribly bitten in Africa, in spite of wearing full-length skirts and long-sleeved, loose tops. My feet are covered in awful scars where some bites got infected. Good job I religiously take my anti-malarials when in the Tropics!
I don't much like relics of bones, skulls, bits of 'the Cross' etc. They detract in my view from the actual spirituality. My sister is in the Church of Scotland, and they have completely simple buildings with plain white walls and just a pulpit for the Minister to conduct prayers and preach, no statues, pictures or candles. Very basic.


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 06:49 PM

Well I love the church architecture I've seen all over Spain and Italy. Quite often, the insides don't match, either in art or in good taste, the fabulous exteriors. There are far too many cheap statues of generic flavour that are, er, painted. Then you have those awful obscene violent crucifixion depictions, sacred bleeding hearts and amateurish statues of saints gazing slightly upwards into a heavenly middle distance as though they are half-way through not quite the best orgasm they've ever had. Lots of the churches in Florence and Venice have amazing works of art and I've seen some wonderful Tintorettos, Giotto frescos, Donatello bas-reliefs and the rest. But the whole lot means an awful lot to me. It's my heritage, just as much as it's the heritage of the most fervent believer, which is what I am most decidedly not. I love it all and I go into every big church in every city I visit as my obsessive numero uno priority (though if you ever go to Napoli don't miss the Archaeological Museum, and if you ever go to Florence don't miss the Uffizi gallery). If you ever get to Lecce in Puglia, go to the Santa Croce basilica. Outside and in, it's my very favourite. Well, there's Hereford Cathedral too...


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Mr Red
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 07:35 PM

Something on TV tonight made reference to a church in Sweden that (in the day) claimed to have a few drops of Jesus's mother's breast milk!

No tell me I am stretching the definition but asking people to believe that one (even in medieval times) is a bit extreme!

Hereford Cathedral - very Norman. Personally I get more excited when the fabric is pre-Norman. Like Brixworth Church. More Roman than Romanesque. The fabric that is, the actual building is a mere 1300 years old, quarried from a Roman villa. The fabric that is.


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: robomatic
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 11:08 PM

Courtesy of William Schwenk Gilbert:

WILLIS        

When all night long a chap remains
On sentry-go, to chase monotony
He exercises of his brains,
That is, assuming that he's got any.
Though never nurtured in the lap
Of luxury, yet I admonish you,
I am an intellectual chap,
    And think of things that would astonish you.
I often think it's comical--Fal, lal, la!
How Nature always does contrive--Fal, lal, la!
That every boy and every gal
That's born into the world alive
    Is either a little Liberal
    Or else a little Conservative!
      Fal, lal, la!

When in that House MPs divide,
If they've a brain and cerebellum, too,
They've got to leave that brain outside,
And vote just as their leaders tell 'em to.
But then the prospect of a lot
Of dull MPs in close proximity,
All thinking for themselves, is what
    No man can face with equanimity.
Let's rejoice with loud Fal la--Fal la la!
That Nature always does contrive--Fal lal la!
That every boy and every gal
That's born into the world alive
    Is either a little Liberal
    Or else a little Conservative!
      Fal lal la!


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Jan 18 - 12:02 AM

Donuel says: Joe you sound like;
Love me. love me love me, I'm a liberal.


Maybe, Donuel, but I think your disdain for my thinking illustrates the prime trait of the extremist: The extremist would much prefer to be right, than to compromise and actually get something accomplished.

And speaking of extremists who are never wrong, how 'bout that guy coming out and expressing his disdain for "shithole" nations?

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Jan 18 - 03:27 AM

The extremist would much prefer to be right, than to compromise and actually get something accomplished.

Joe, that may be one trait of an extremist but is not extreme in itself. Many people have that characteristic, including some on here, but it does not make them extremists. The term should only be used for people who are, well, extreme.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Jan 18 - 04:12 AM

Ah, but Dave, the converse is almost always true. The extremist is always right (in his/her mind), but rarely gets anything accomplished. People on the fringes don't get support until they get realistic and seek support from the good people in the middle - and there are lots of good people in the middle.
-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Jan 18 - 04:21 AM

OK, Joe, you are right... :-)

Seriously though, there are too many issues being conflated here. If you start to tar everyone who has any such traits as extremists you will never be able to address the issue of real extremism. Can you honestly say that you consider those who always have to 'win' their arguments on here as extremists? Do you really think that there are any extremists, in the true sense of the word, posting on Mudcat? If there are I think you need to exclude them immediately!

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Jan 18 - 05:01 AM

Rarely get anything accomplished? I heard of one bloke who many consider to have been an extremist who accomplished a Holocaust...


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Jan 18 - 06:12 AM

Dave,
Extremists are people who have either extreme views such as Stalinists,fascists or flat earthers; or those that perform extreme acts such as burning places and killing people. Other than the odd religious fruit cake, racist or homophobe I have never come across an extremist on this forum.

You have certainly come across people here whose views are of the Far Left.
Those are extreme political views.


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Jan 18 - 06:22 AM

No I have not.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jan 18 - 06:30 AM

"You have certainly come across people here whose views are of the Far Left."
None whatever
The only extremists on this forum are the Islamophobes who talk about "implants" and Anti Semites who claim that to criticise Israel is antisemitic
There are very few open racists part from the small number of anti travellers and those , but there are those who attack the Irish (especially those who accuse Irish children of being "brainwashed to hate Britain")
Apart from those few, very few actual extrmists
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Jan 18 - 06:44 AM

Well I'll contemplate whether or not I'm a ravin' leftie extremist as I drive to Waitrose later on...


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Raggytash
Date: 12 Jan 18 - 06:48 AM

I take it you have already read your scumbag left wing rag the Guardian?


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Jan 18 - 06:50 AM

Unite against the capitalist oppressor, Comrades! Buy your chia seeds from Aldi.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Jan 18 - 07:01 AM

I'm off to Lidl in a minute as they stock a very nice Primitivo for £4.99... then with Mrs Steve to Morrisons to get some veg. Revolution, comrades!


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Raggytash
Date: 12 Jan 18 - 07:22 AM

Me too!! I'm a decadent raging left winger, why only last week I bought a dozen bottles of Chateauneuf Du Pape from Lidl at £9.99 a bottle !!


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Raggytash
Date: 12 Jan 18 - 07:30 AM

I'll probably drink a couple at the dinner party I'm holding on Sunday!


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Jan 18 - 07:36 AM

I have just had Polish bread and sausage for lunch. I must be a rabid pinko commie.

:D tG


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Jan 18 - 07:49 AM

Steve, please tell your friends again that you are Far left and proud of it.


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Jan 18 - 08:00 AM

I think anyone sensible knows enough about your politics to understand what you mean Steve. Don't jump!

Interesting that Joe classed those who "would much prefer to be right, than to compromise and actually get something accomplished" as extremists though. I disagreed but I do recognise that trait in someone posting here. If I could just put my finger on it...

:D tG


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jan 18 - 08:25 AM

"Steve, please tell your friends again that you are Far left and proud of it."
Whwn you tell the world that your policies are in line with the BNP and Ukip, you might be entitled to suggest that Keith
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Jan 18 - 09:03 AM

Dave, I say it again: your backwards understanding of what I said is incorrect. Read again.
Joe Offer


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Jan 18 - 09:28 AM

I think your disdain for my thinking illustrates the prime trait of the extremist: The extremist would much prefer to be right, than to compromise and actually get something accomplished.

Seems pretty straightforward to me, Joe, but I am more than happy for you to correct me if you did not mean what this says.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Jan 18 - 10:14 AM

I'm a leftie and you are a Tory, Keith. Let our speech be yea yea, nay nay.


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Vashta Nerada
Date: 12 Jan 18 - 10:41 AM

Jumping to the bottom - I don't know where Jackaroodave gets his misinformation. Bra burning was most definitely a thing in it's day.


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Jan 18 - 10:43 AM

Shouldn't that be Ms Information? And, er, "bottom..."?


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Jackaroodave
Date: 12 Jan 18 - 12:49 PM

Vashta, I'm not saying it never happened, and I shouldn't have implied that in my first post, but in the US it was never a mass protest phenomenon, as it was portrayed by chauvinists in the media, and it began with an inaccurate report of the 1968 Miss America protest.

For my source, check the link I provided. It's actually of interest how the meme got started

I csn add that my feminist friends and feminists whose work I read at the time were furious at this misrepresentation of their cause.

Do you have any information about that photo, by the. way?


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Vashta Nerada
Date: 12 Jan 18 - 12:54 PM

There were protests and burning bras was a feature of some of them - there are other photos in which women are clearly braless, but not burning bras. That was more common, as I recall. The information from some sources say the photo itself is from a Toronto protest.


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Jackaroodave
Date: 12 Jan 18 - 01:09 PM

Here's the link again: Msinformation

As far as ot wearing a bra goes, few of the young people I hung out with in the late 60s-early 70s wore bras, feminists or not--except when they had to present themselves as straight.

Sorry for the thread drift.


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Jan 18 - 08:28 PM

Dave Gnome sez: Interesting that Joe classed those who "would much prefer to be right, than to compromise and actually get something accomplished" as extremists though. I disagreed but I do recognise that trait in someone posting here. If I could just put my finger on it...

Logical Error Alert!!!!

Dave, I classed extremists as those who "would much prefer to be right, than to compromise and actually get something accomplished".

You got it switched around, Dave. Not all those who insist on their rightness over willingness to compromise, are extremists. I think they're mostly all assholes, though. We have to be able to forge compromises that are satisfactory to all, if we are to be able to live in peace with our neighbors.

I don't think that a good compromise involves feeling forced to accept something that one considers unacceptable. I think we need to go farther and work out compromises that serve the needs of all.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Jan 18 - 08:31 PM

" Not all those who insist on their rightness over willingness to compromise, are extremists. They're all assholes, though."

Not if they happen to be right they're not.


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Jan 18 - 08:41 PM

the American election was a good illustration.

you couldn't get the bernie sanders faction to admit they were opening the door to the age of Trump.


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Jan 18 - 08:55 PM

You could get in trouble for saying that stuff about Bernie Sanders around here, Al, but you may well be right. Seems to me, that Ralph Nader did the same thing to Al Gore in 2000. I do think that Nader and Sanders had a lot to say that was worthwhile, but I think it's quite possible that Nader and Sanders gave the elections to "W" and Trump.
Was it worth it for them to lose an election and be "right"?

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Jan 18 - 08:56 PM

And so they shouldn't have. The "you're splitting the vote so you'd better back off and let me stand on my own" argument is mischievous and downright undemocratic.


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Jan 18 - 09:02 PM

I dunno, Steve. I think coalitions and compromise are essential. Those who can't compromise, end up shooting themselves in the foot.

Elizabeth Warren is another very admirable person who may well be causing the right wing to control the U.S. And Trump and the right wing have me very scared right now.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Jan 18 - 10:13 PM

My missing post explains that Joe. I challenge your middle of the road position I DO NOT DISTAIN your stance. I think we all would personally like to be a centrist, then nearly everyone would agree with us. The alternative is a meaningful diversity with a 1st amendment protection. Going point by point I think I agreed with them all. Just look out for careless drivers out in the middle of the road, passing on the right.


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: robomatic
Date: 13 Jan 18 - 01:23 AM

"I've said it before and I'll say it again. . . Democracy just doesn't work!"

       - Kent Brockman

"You can always buy the rope from a Capitalist that you're going to hang him with."

       - V. I. Lenin


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Jan 18 - 03:00 AM

Ok, thanks Joe. I now understand what you meant. It is not what you said though, is it? Your phrase illustrates the prime trait of the extremist indicates, to me, that one can spot an extremist by looking for this 'prime trait'. It's like profiling and I am sure you understand what a risky business that can be.

We may now be talking semantics but it is important that we use unambiguous phrases on a chat forum that relies soley on words. I have often re-phrased an earlier poorly crafted phrase with one closer to my intention only to be accused of 'squirming'. I will continue to do it though as I understand that not everyone is on the same wavelength and I may need to try a few times before I convey my meaning to everyone accurately.

Glad you can do the same. Eventually:-)

DtG


Fixed. ----mudelf


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Jan 18 - 03:28 AM

Well, anyhow, my ideal president was Barack Obama. That should give you an idea of where I stand.
My phone can't fix your italics, Dave. I'll fix it tomorrow.
Joe


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Jan 18 - 04:52 AM

No probs, Joe. Thanks anyway.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jan 18 - 05:24 AM

Jim,
Whwn you tell the world that your policies are in line with the BNP and Ukip, you might be entitled to suggest that Keith

That would be a lie Jim.
I am in the centre, and voted Labour when they occupied that ground.
They moved away from me, and many others because thy stopped winning elections when they lurched to the Left.

Steve, are you still proud to be far Left, or embarrassed now?


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jan 18 - 05:32 AM

Keith
You voted for the party led by a man who lied to help accelerate the oil war which led to the rise of Isis
Your record of Islamophobia and anti-Irish hatred is on record
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jan 18 - 06:12 AM

I have no record of such hateful things Jim.


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Jan 18 - 06:41 AM

If there is something far beyond you in the political spectrum it cannot be said you are an extremist. Unless of course you are given to moving the goalposts as is the wont of someone on here.

I never realised that the transfer of leadership from Blair to Brown was a lurch to the left. Was it not Brown who stopped winning elections when Cameron (aka Blair clone) won power in 2010? You learn some alt new facts on here every day...

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jan 18 - 07:06 AM

Are you proud that you are a Tory-voting, Labour-hating, right-wing, Farage-defending, Bibi-backing brexiteer who would be well-advised to keep your views to yourself if you ever visited Rochdale or the West Bank, Keith? Now a word your shell-like: I don't care how you wish to brand me or anybody else. Why would I bother when you are wrong about everything all the time?


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jan 18 - 07:10 AM

Having said all that, if your claim is true that extremists are the people at the edges of bell curves, I reluctantly concede that you don't qualify because there are so many of you with those deluded views. Maybe there are such things as off-centre extremists...


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Raggytash
Date: 13 Jan 18 - 07:20 AM

Hoops, jumping ................


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jan 18 - 07:36 AM

"I have no record of such hateful things Jim."
Ho-ho-ho
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Iains
Date: 13 Jan 18 - 07:55 AM

Has christmas come again already???


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jan 18 - 08:50 AM

Steve,
Are you proud that you are a Tory-voting, Labour-hating, right-wing, Farage-defending, Bibi-backing

I am none of those things. These are just smears. Personal attack.

I don't care how you wish to brand me or anybody else.

I do not, but you used to brand yourself far-Left.
I am happy if you have now moderated your views, and I take some credit for assisting your journey.

Why would I bother when you are wrong about everything all the time?
You can not identify one such thing!


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: robomatic
Date: 13 Jan 18 - 09:31 AM

12 Jan 18 - 06:30 AM

"The only extremists on this forum are the Islamophobes who talk about "implants" and Anti Semites who claim that to criticise Israel is antisemitic"

Pot. Kettle.

One of the biggest problems with dealing with Trump is that it inspires Trump-like responses on the part of his nay-sayers. This makes it harder to select a preference when both sides behave the same. That's how you get civil wars started.


"When you live with wolves, howl like one."

                   - Russian proverb


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Jan 18 - 10:29 AM

I have no record by Jim Carrol.


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Jan 18 - 11:04 AM

the thing is....

I suspect theres two theatres of thought.

1) what we KNOW should happen

2) What is likely to happen in this vale of tears.

I suspect, whatever our political slant, we are all decent human beings and want the greatest good for the greatest number.


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Raggytash
Date: 13 Jan 18 - 11:10 AM

I suspect you may be correct Al but some would have a proviso that everyone only includes white, anglo-saxon protestants.


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Jan 18 - 11:33 AM

I think it's quite possible that Nader and Sanders gave the elections to "W" and Trump.

Nonsense. The people naive and/or foolish enough to VOTE FOR Nader and Sanders and the hell with the consequences gave the elections to "W" and Trump. Take it up with them instead of blaming the candidates who did indeed have a lot to say that was worthwhile & needed to be said.


Elizabeth Warren is another very admirable person who may well be causing the right wing to control the U.S. [emphasis mine]

Oh please, Joe - that's bullshit. You're smarter than that - I hope.

I think coalitions and compromise are essential.

So Joe, help us out here. What exactly IS your program for building coalitions and compromizing with racists, Islamophobes, sexual predators, child rapists, plutocrats and persons who inhabit various fact-averse alternative realities?


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: bobad
Date: 13 Jan 18 - 11:52 AM

The only extremists on this forum are the Islamophobes who talk about "implants" and Anti Semites who claim that to criticise Israel is antisemitic

I was waiting for this excrement to issue forth from the likes of Carroll - he never fails to live up to expectations.


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Jan 18 - 12:14 PM

Nor do you, Boo - nor do you.


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Jackaroodave
Date: 13 Jan 18 - 01:22 PM

How could Sanders have given the election to Trump? He got the bulk of his write-ins in California, Vermont, and New Hampshire, which all went for Clinton. A proportion of former Sanders supporters voted for Trump, but that makes them Trump voters, not Sanders'.

On the other hand, Nader did get far more votes than Bush's margin in Florida. But those votes weren't added to Bush's total. Gore just didn't

Focusing on hypothetical results if minor candidates had not existed distracts from the actual reasons the candidates lost: Gore was an inept campaigner who would have won had he been able to carry his own home state. Clinton was a very weak candidate who was especially vulnerable to the vicious disinformation campaign waged against her.

Centrists need to examine the process where


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Jackaroodave
Date: 13 Jan 18 - 01:24 PM

. . . whereby nominations pass to heirs apparent whose "turn" it has become.


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Jan 18 - 05:10 PM

offered as light relief


https://soundcloud.com/denise_whittle/the-big-red-sausage


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: robomatic
Date: 13 Jan 18 - 09:21 PM

There are those who 'split' votes because of conviction of their views and a true desire to furnish an alternative for voters. There are those who are paid by the other side to run as they do to split votes to defeat an entire party. Both are facts of life and it is up to alert voters to figure out what's going on. On the eve of November Presidential election in 2000 I was at the Egan Center where all local media congregated, and many lead campaigners. As George W. Bush's victory clarified, the local Nader chapter staged a small march down the middle of the grand floor, to accolades which must have been mainly Republican. They might not have intended the Republicans to win, but they couldn't deny they had affected the way things turned out.
In Alaska, again, in 2012, we had a situation where an extreme RWing Republican, Joe Miller, won the primary, and the moderate Republican, and incumbant, Lisa Murkowski, had to run a full scale Senatorial campaign as a write-in. The only way she could win was for Democrats to combine with moderate/centrist Republicans to vote for her, thus in the particular case of the election the Democratic candidate was the vote splitter.


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Jackaroodave
Date: 13 Jan 18 - 10:45 PM

"As George W. Bush's victory clarified, the local Nader chapter staged a small march down the middle of the grand floor, to accolades which must have been mainly Republican. They might not have intended the Republicans to win, but they couldn't deny they had affected the way things turned out."

Sorry, I don't see it. A vote for Nader in an essentially two-party election was not a vote for Bush; functionally it was the same as a vote for nobody. And it was a miniscule portion of the votes for nobody in Florida.

The voter turnout in Florida for president was 56% of estimated eligible voters, who numbered over 12 million. Presidential Turnout Percentages of Eligible Voters in 2000

The Nader vote was around 17 thousand. Of the roughly 5.28 million voters who sat it out, many more than 17 thousand at least preferred Gore to Bush, to say nothing of the smaller number necessary to elect him. Compared to the potential Gore voters who did not bother to vote, the Nader vote was conspicuous but utterly trivial--and those voters didn't even WANT Gore.*

If we want to construct counterfactual scenarios, a more plausible one, and one which more reasonably assigns responsibility would be, "Suppose the Gore campaign had been 5% more effective in turning out the vote, then Gore would have won walking away."

(*I have never seen the logic of "You prefer your candidate, therefore you should vote for mine.")


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 Jan 18 - 03:20 AM

Joe Offer says: I think coalitions and compromise are essential.

Greg_F responds: So Joe, help us out here. What exactly IS your program for building coalitions and compromizing with racists, Islamophobes, sexual predators, child rapists, plutocrats and persons who inhabit various fact-averse alternative realities?

Greg, there's no hope of building a compromise with the people on your list. But what percentage of the electorate fall into your category of crazies? If it's as much as ten percent, I'd be surprised.

Most people are far more reasonable, than you give them credit for. And yeah, for legislation to be long-lasting and effective, I think it has to satisfy 60-70 percent of the electorate. A 51% majority is not enough to enact credible and effective legislation. I think Obamacare would be far more durable if it had been designed by rational rules instead of political games meant to squeak a vote out here and there to satisfy political "special interests." I think that means for Obamacare to survive in the long run, it must be a single payer program like Medicare.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Jan 18 - 03:46 AM

A 51% majority is not enough to enact credible and effective legislation.

I wish you would post that on the brexit thread, Joe:-)

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 Jan 18 - 04:00 AM

Ain't it the truth, Dave?

The U.S. Senate rules usually demand a 60% majority to pass major legislation, but the Republicans have been playing games with that rule lately. It won't make for solid legislation.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Jan 18 - 05:00 AM

I feel your pain Joe:-(

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Jackaroodave
Date: 14 Jan 18 - 05:06 AM

I made a huge mistake in describing the vote in Florida, confusing Nader's 97 thousand votes with Buchanan's 17 thousand. The non-voting numbers are so great, however, that it makes no change in my description of the Nader vote as a "miniscule" portion of the voters who might have voted for Gore but didn't.

From Wikipedia, presidential Election 2000:

Bush: 2,912,790
Gore: 2,912,253
---------------------
Difference: 537

Nader: 97,488

I also used the voting-age population for the figure of 12 million instead of the more conservative voter-eligible estimate of 10,667,193.

HOWEVER, 44% of these sat out the election, or 4,693,565 (rounded to whole numbers). If we assume, based on the actual vote, that half of these would have preferred Gore to Bush if you held a gun to their heads, that gives us 2,346,782.

If we add the Nader voters, we have 2,444,270 voters who might have voted for Gore but effectively threw their ballots away. Of this group of wasted votes, the Nader vote is a mere 4%.

Now obviously the largest number of these "eligible voters" were indifferent, hostile to both candidates--like the Naderites--or unreachably apathetic. But if you consider only the top 2.5%, those 2 standard deviations above the mean in the direction of Gore support, those on the voting-nonvoting border, that's 61,107 votes that were low-hanging fruit for a slightly more enthusiastic GOTV campaign, more than 100 times the amount necessary to defeat Bush.

I apologize for messing up, and for the blizzard of figures, but the point stands: Nader voters had nothing to do with Gore's defeat. He lost because he didn't get as many voters to the polls in Florida as his opponent. (And because he was jobbed by the state of Florida and the Supreme Court.)


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Jan 18 - 09:41 AM

I just bought some spelt bread and 'ultimate' crumpets from Marks and Sparks. I am now a middle class extremist:-)

Oh, hang on, best not say that. I can see, in years to come, someone on here reminding us that I admitted being an extremist!

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Senoufou
Date: 14 Jan 18 - 09:52 AM

Show me a crumpet and I'll follow you anywhere Dave.
But, please, what are 'ultimate crumpets'? Am I missing something?


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Jan 18 - 10:05 AM

Quoting from the packet, 'ultimate 5 grain crumpets. High in fibre, made with softgrains, a blend of white and wholemeal flour. With sourdough for a fuller flavour'.

The you have what constitutes the ultimate, or maybe extremist, crumpets :-)

DtG.


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Senoufou
Date: 14 Jan 18 - 10:08 AM

Sounds extremely delicious. I'm extremely drooling, and will go and put one of my ordinary plebeian crumpets in the toaster and add some extreme Irish butter.
My husband will say, "And you will get extremely FAT!"


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Jan 18 - 11:08 AM

But what percentage of the electorate fall into your category of crazies?

By the last poll, Joe, somewhere around 40% of the electorate who still love Trump. [And about half the voters in Alabama, but I digress].They might be excused (and I stress the conditional) for voting for that piece of shit in the first place, but after a year, there's no damn excuse.

Plus a substantial number of the gutless-wonder ostrich Republicans in Congress...


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Jan 18 - 01:50 PM

I bought those crumpets too, Dave, and found them very disappointing. The best crumpets in my estimation are Waitrose ones made with buttermilk or just ordinary Warburtons ones. I can follow crumpet around too, Senoufou, but you have to be careful not to get arrested...


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Senoufou
Date: 14 Jan 18 - 02:19 PM

Oh Steve, you are a one! heh heh


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Jan 18 - 05:09 PM

I found them a bit soggy :-( The M and S Columbian coffee sponge roll was lovely. Though how it got into the tastes of Britain range escapes me.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Jan 18 - 06:10 PM

Exactement, Dave. Exactly what I found.


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Raggytash
Date: 14 Jan 18 - 08:42 PM

Senoufou, I'm not really trying to tempt you away from your husband, who you obviously dearly love .......... but I make my own Crumpets and my own butter.

Newly made and freshly toasted with lashings of fresh butter. I doubt if there is anything finer !!


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Jan 18 - 03:01 AM

You make your own crumpets? It must take ages to drill all those holes.

:D tG


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Senoufou
Date: 15 Jan 18 - 03:36 AM

Oh Raggytash, I'm yours, I'm yours!!!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 Jan 18 - 01:30 AM

The local Unitarian church had its annual Martin Luther King celebration today. I usually enjoy it, and I always see a lot of friends there. This year, though, it seemed to run on far too long. It began at 10 AM, and then we had a march to the town square at noon, and then a talk by a guy who's really nice but known to talk on and on, and singing and drumming by some Native American performers. I thought it would be impolite to leave, but I finally gave up at 1:15 PM and went across the street to the bookstore. I drove past at 1:45 PM, and they were finally closing down.

I'll tell ya one thing about liberals - give 'em a microphone, and they don't know when to shut up.

Wait! Wait! I have just one more thing to say, and that will save the world!

Nice people, but they sure talk a lot.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jan 18 - 05:36 AM

"I'll tell ya one thing about liberals"
In a nation that elects Trump as president, I don't suppose there are many opportunities for Liberals to speak their piece so it seems sensible that they should take advantage of any opportunities that come their way
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Jan 18 - 09:03 AM

Liberals... they sure talk a lot.

As opposed to Trumpists who spew? or Tweet? (or is that twat....)


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