BS: how can you be other than an extremist?

Subject: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 03:43 AM

Recently someone was accused of being an extremist. something my Dad was accused of in his lifetime, and I sympathised.

The fact is, when you've racked up a few years - the things you've seen are so at variance with the accepted facts that you are very isolated.

I don't really know what the answer to this is.

its just a rather sad observation.

Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Mr Red
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 04:06 AM

The problem is words morph. Especially when comics like the Sun & Star get hold of them.
An extremist to me would be someone practicing violence. Anyone advocating violence would these days be dubbed so, but in reality would be a seditious.
Even then I would think think it should be reserved for terrorism.

But such is the nature of things anyone in favour of the death penalty might get the accolade.

Words often mean what people want them to mean. Hence we have divided nations in the UK (& US and who knows where else).

And there is a word factory (or did I mean fake tory?) in the White House.

Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 04:15 AM

In today's world, the social ides of Christ would have been considered extremist - and probably jailed as a rabble-rousing agitator (didn't Woodie Guthrie already point that out?)
All too often 'extremism' is used by extremists (like the neo-Nazi lady due to go on trial for racism) to quash common-decency based ideas - such as fairness and equality
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Senoufou
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 04:25 AM

The trouble with the word 'extremism' is that it begs the question 'in comparison to what?'.
As Jim says, it all depends what the 'mainstream' are subscribing to at any one time. Jesus was an out-and-our rebel, both to the Romans and the official Jews.

I think 'non-conformist' could cover it a little, meaning someone who doesn't go with the flow of the majority of a population.
If one lived in Saudi Arabia (shudder!) and one kept banging on about being allowed to wear shorts in the street or having an extra-marital affair, one would be labelled an extremist. (and promptly executed)

When my father was fighting in WW2, any conscientious objectors were persecuted and spat on. They were extremists because they were anti-war.
I agree with Big Al - when one is old and has seen a lot, one has a different view of the world to that of younger, more ardent yet more inexperienced folk.

Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 04:48 AM

It's one of those special verb conjugations:

I am right;
You are wrong;
He is an extremist.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 04:58 AM

If you are very anti-extremist can you be seen as an extreme moderate and therefore be anti-yourself?

Just wondering

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 05:03 AM

No Dave.
Extremists are the minority at the edges of a distribution.

Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 05:10 AM

An extremist can be one who is extreme in action rather than ideology. One who, for instance, posts the same twaddle over and over again on an internet forum much to the chagrin of the other members.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 05:40 AM

An extremist can be one who is extreme in action rather than ideology

Yes but they need not be.
Of course a person with extreme views is an extremist whether or not their behaviour is extreme.

A moderate person who posts mainstream views on a forum would be seen by extremists as posting twaddle to the chagrin of the extremists on the forum.

The anomaly here is that the extremists dominate certain threads to the chagrin of normal decent mainstream people who find their views marginalised.

Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 05:57 AM

"Extremists are the minority at the edges of a distribution."
Like the German National Socialist Party, do you mean!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Senoufou
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 06:13 AM

Who actually decides what constitutes 'decent' behaviour or views?
In Victorian times, 'decent' meant covering up the legs of pianos!
I can remember when gay folk were seen as disgusting and never-to-be-mentioned. 'Decent' people were heterosexual.
I've noticed that over the decades, some so-called 'extremists' have often had a very valid axe to grind.
I'm always wary of labelling a group or an individual. Things are usually much more complex than we think.

Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 06:15 AM

One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Raggytash
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 06:19 AM

You could be an extreme reactionary ............






.................. anyone recognise anyone??

Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 06:28 AM

Unless you're talking about people who cut other people's heads off in public, or things like that, it isn't a very useful word to use unqualified.

Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Senoufou
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 06:31 AM

My old father would have said that anyone trying to be rational, flexible and understanding of other views was 'wishy-washy' and 'lacking in moral fibre'. He would have exploded with rage at all the PC stuff flying about nowadays. Making him in a sense an extremist...

I also remember the early days of modern feminism. We women were seen as extremists, challenging the very fibre of paternalistic society.
Now (so my very feminist sister tells me) feminists are turning against each other and forming factions, especially with regard to the LGBT and transgender debates. I thought burning my bra was extremely extreme, but it seems not...

Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 06:41 AM

I thought burning my bra was extremely extreme

Surely that would depend on the size.

I'll get my coat...

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 06:43 AM

I hope you took it off first...

Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Raggytash
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 06:45 AM

Merely using the dictionary definition Steve!

reactionary
r?'ak?(?)n(?)ri/Submit
adjective
1.
opposing political or social progress or reform.
"reactionary attitudes toward women's rights"
synonyms:        right-wing, conservative, rightist, ultra-conservative; More
noun
1.
a reactionary person.
"he was later to become an extreme reactionary"
synonyms:        right-winger, conservative, rightist, diehard, Colonel Blimp; More

Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Mr Red
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 06:46 AM

In Victorian times, 'decent' meant covering up the legs of pianos!

I think that was for fashion, craze, decoration, dust, and to prevent scuffing. It may have been somewhat of a joke. The covering of ankles was a different issue that from the distance of time, we conflate the two.

Urban Myth.

But as has been mooted, life was a lot more nuanced. Take the Victorian practice of mistresses and wife selling. The latter was probably more a way of common law cheapo divorce and with the agreement of all parties. The public sale price being spent by all three celebrating in the local alehouse. Thomas Hardy was a novelist, after all, not a documentarian.

Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Raggytash
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 06:48 AM

I particularly liked the Colonel Blimp reference !!

Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 06:50 AM

I meant extremist in my post, Raggytash, not reactionary. Sorry about that!

Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 06:51 AM

"One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter."

The terrorist is the man with the small bomb.

Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Senoufou
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 07:55 AM

Hahaha! In those days, it wasn't much of a conflagration - I was very skinny and tiny. Nowadays, one would need to send for the Fire Brigade.

I concur with Dave's point, that if one is very anti-extremism, one could perhaps be called extreme in turn.

At the risk of being called wishy-washy by my late very reactionary pa, I personally believe that fiery and fixedly-held views are dodgy. They prevent reflection and assessment. They also engender hatred and condemnation of other groups, which may or may not be the best way forward.

In Moral Philosophy, we were taught about 'self-evident truths'. I used to silently disagree. Almost any so-called 'truth' can be challenged.
There are probably only a small number of ideas, statements and tenets with which most people (but not all!) would agree. One needs to review constantly ones ideas and to listen attentively even to the extremists in order to understand and adjust ones opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 08:19 AM

"Extremists are the minority at the edges of a distribution."
Like the German National Socialist Party, do you mean!!!

Exactly Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Raggytash
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 08:30 AM

Exactly Jim ........................ all 8.5 million of them !!

Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 10:00 AM

The people at the edges of a distribution curve are not extremists. They are the people at the extremes. Adults who are six foot six or more or four foot ten or under are at the extremes of a distribution curve of heights. They are not extremists. If I pass twelve GCSEs and five 'A' Levels all with A-star grades I am at one extreme of the range of achievement but I am not an extremist. So, Keith, try to not be so extremely silly.

(I didn't do nearly as well as that, I hasten to add).

Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 10:08 AM

"I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice! And let me remind you also that moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue!

   Barry Goldwater-1964

The conversation then devolved into a debate over his views of 'liberty' and 'justice', which were not exactly mainstream.

As to bra burning, I remember a quote from way back where a mother said,
"I don't know what to think. My 11 year old wants me to buy her a bra, and my 16 year old wants to burn hers."

Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Jackaroodave
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 10:35 AM

Not to dampen the hilarity, but bra-burning never happened. I was there when it was debunked in the late 60s, early 70s, and since then feminists have again and again rebutted the canard.

I did not know, however, how the urban legend got started. Snopes has the story here:

the origin of the bra-burning urban legend

Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 10:51 AM

rebutted the canard

Is that anything to do with a ducks arse?

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Jackaroodave
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 11:02 AM

Pretty funny :-)

Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 11:06 AM

Goldwater? As we said at the time: "In your guts, you know he's nuts." In addition, hat was hardly his most ridiculous statement.

Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 11:17 AM

In fairness, Barry wasn't a total nut case:

I am frankly sick and tired of the political preachers telling me as a citizen that if I want to be a moral person, I must believe in A, B, C, and D. Just who do they think they are? And from where do they presume to claim the right to dictate their moral beliefs to me? I am warning them today: I will fight them every step of the way if they try to dictate their moral convictions to all Americans in the name of "conservatism.”

- Barry Goldwater

Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Senoufou
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 11:27 AM

You weren't there in Edinburgh Jackaroodave when I most certainly DID burn my (tiny) bra, along with several other mad lassies.
My superior younger sister has never, ever worn one!

Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: JMB
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 11:31 AM

I once stated on my opinion on a politics page in which I indicated that I think Canada should be a republic rather than a constitutional monarchy. There was someone who was a generation ahead of me who was an extremist for the monarchy. They totally disregarded everything I said and didn't reply appropriately, stating that it wasn't worth commenting on and that my opinion didn't matter. They said that I am against authority, law and order and that I was irrational and supported everything that was evil in the world. I thought that Canada was supposed to be a democracy and supported equality and social justice, as well as
support for separation of church and state; and a monarchy even though it's a figurehead doesn't really represent these values to me. There is also the amount of money and publicity that goes into the royals when there are countless people who are homeless or in deep levels of poverty and there isn't enough money nor media coverage going towards them in my opinion. In fact, this upcoming royal wedding has them wanting to clear out the homeless people from the streets, because it is an eyesore and makes the royals look bad.

Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Senoufou
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 11:51 AM

It wasn't the royals themselves who suggested this clearance, but Simon Dudley, the Conservative Leader of Royal Borough of Windsor and Maidenhead Council, without even consulting his fellow Council members!.
(He owns two massive houses worth £5m and was skiing in the Rocky Mountains at the time this nastiness broke.)
He copied his poison to Theresa May and the Police Chief of Thames Valley Police while he was on this expensive holiday.

I would imagine that the royals are very annoyed and embarrassed by all this. If so, it would be wise of them to publicly say so, and detach themselves from this judgement of homeless people.

Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Jackaroodave
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 11:55 AM

No, I wasn't, Senoufou. And I may have missed some occurrence in a corner of the US. But the legend of aggrieved feminists burning their bras at the 1968 Miss America Pageant and sparking a national trend was utterly false and repeatedly invoked to discredit and ridicule the movement.

Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 12:09 PM

Steve,
The people at the edges of a distribution curve are not extremists. They are the people at the extremes.

OK. If you prefer, delete all my references to "extremists" and replace with "extreme people" or "people at the extreme."

My case remains unchanged.

Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Mr Red
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 12:21 PM

Barry Goldwater-1964

In your heart you know he's right. In your guts you know he's nuts.

Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 12:30 PM

"It wasn't the royals themselves who suggested this clearance, but Simon Dudley, the Conservative Leader of Royal Borough of Windsor and Maidenhead Council, without even consulting his fellow Council members!."
If the couple abide by the Council's wishes they will be endorsing it
One Prince has taken part in a marathon on behalf of the homeless, another is an active sponsor of a homeless charity.
At least someone from Buck House needs to express an opinion on the suggestion
The Dook of E never seems to have a problem in ruffling feathers when it comes to his sometimes offensive opinions
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 12:32 PM

Extremists are people who have either extreme views such as Stalinists,fascists or flat earthers; or those that perform extreme acts such as burning places and killing people. Other than the odd religious fruit cake, racist or homophobe I have never come across an extremist on this forum. There are plenty of diverse political views from across the spectrum but they are all, in the main, just a broad slice of normal characters. Some may seem extreme because they are viewed from the other end of the range but no-one on here is an extremist. Apart from Keith who is extremely annoying.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 12:44 PM

I once burned my sandals. Not because I'd decided to morph into a right-wing Telegraph-reading reactionary, but because I was standing too close to a fumarole in the crater of a volcano...

Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Senoufou
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 12:45 PM

It all depends on where one is standing though Dave. Saying someone has an extreme view is merely an opinion voiced from the other side of the fence. Who is the arbiter?
Killing people seems to us to be extreme, but many Brits would be glad to advocate killing members of Isis. Look at the intense debates on capital punishment. Many folk would be glad to see paedophiles hanged.
These are extreme standpoints in a way.

I've been accosted in Tesco by an extremist, fundamentalist, heavily-veiled Bangladeshi-born Muslim lady who knows my husband is a Muslim. She bangs on and on about how we are NOT married until I convert to Islam and have a wedding in the mosque.
She's an absolute pain, but since I can see her point of view, I can smile faintly and carry on putting packets of crumpets in our trolley.
My sister though would let her have it with both barrels.

Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Senoufou
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 12:48 PM

Hahaha Steve! I bet you were hopping mad!

Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 12:54 PM

I was, literally. It burned most of the tread offa me soles!

Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Senoufou
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 01:05 PM

(Sorry about thread drift)
Did the fumarole give off stinky gas Steve? I'm amazed when people plod around on active volcanoes, as I'd have thought the sulphurous gases would be absolutely lethal.

Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 01:11 PM

In America leftist Democrats are generally called radicals and the extreme right wingers are called extremists.

Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 01:42 PM

It did. It was in the Solfatara volcano, near Naples. The large crater is more or less level with the surrounding area and you can just walk in (not free!). There are boiling mud pools and a large number of viciously-hissing fumaroles in there and, as I found out, some very hot ground. The crater is the site of the martyrdom of San Gennaro in 305 AD. He's the patron saint of Napoli and, somewhat gruesomely, his bones are all too visibly sticking out of a large urn in the crypt of the cathedral. The crater is about ten miles out of Naples, in the town of Pozzuoli. It's on the metro line out of Naples. Watch your pockets!   

Sadly, a young boy and his parents died in the Solfatara a few months ago when they fell into a pit of boiling mud. The lad had ignored a safety barrier. The volcano last erupted in 1198 when surface rainwater reacted with magma near the surface, whst vulcanologists call a phreatic eruption. It isn't far from Vesuvius but it's not on the same magma field.

Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Senoufou
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 01:58 PM

Ah! That's fascinating Steve. I did read about that poor lad who ignored the sign and fell into the boiling mud.
Shame about your sandals. Did you have blisters?
I do hate it when churches 'abroad' have gruesome bits of saints on view. The church in Corfu has the remains of Saint Teodora, and one can kiss the skull if one waits in a queue. (I didn't)
I do apologise for this hijacking of a thread. I just like to find out about everything. Sorry!

Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 03:42 PM

St. Stephen's Cathedral in Budapest has "The Holy Dexter." If you go to the side chapel and put a coin into the slot, a light goes on and you can see the preserved right hand of St. Stephen, first king of Hungary.

But back to extremism and away from extremities...

I used to think of myself as a liberal; but somewhere along the way, I got interested in the idea of consensus politics. It seems to me, that things don't work very well unless they are supported by the vast majority of people. Otherwise, things go back and forth according to the vagaries of majority vote, and nobody is satisfied for very long.

But if I think of what I hold to be important, I still come out quite liberal (by U.S. standards). The ideals I seek are:

Unrestricted international borders and immigration
Equal employment opportunity and pay for all races and genders
Strict procedures to eliminate racial and gender imbalance
Heavy taxation of those with obscenely high income
Free education through all levels
Guaranteed subsistence income for all
Government-paid healthcare
Subsidies for the arts and public broadcasting


And so forth. But my belief in consensus, demands that none of my ideals can become law until they are accepted as reasonable by the vast majority of people. If my ideals are not accepted, then it's up to me to sell them until they become acceptable.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 04:19 PM

Joe you sound like;
Love me. love me love me, I'm a liberal.
Phil Ochs