Review: Celtic Connections

Subject: RE: Review: Celtic Connections
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 12 Feb 18 - 01:17 PM

The shambles at Celtic Connections was analogous to the direction of today's society, change simply for the sake of it, thoughtless, destructive and if we don't regain our senses, unstoppable.

Subject: RE: Review: Celtic Connections
From: GUEST,Allan C
Date: 12 Feb 18 - 02:07 PM

Again it was not a "folk" concert as such. There were probably dozens upon dozens of folk concerts on at Celtic Connections. This wasn't. It was a concert featuring an orchestral version of a dance/folk fusion album. I have now watched it and it was superb as far as I am concerned but that is just a matter of taste. There certainly wasn't just hundreds in the audience either. You could see there were a few thousand at least. I read it was a 6,000 sell out.

Subject: RE: Review: Celtic Connections
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 12 Feb 18 - 03:38 PM

All of whom seemed to be having a fantastic time - which is more than can be said at some traditional folk events ;-)

Subject: RE: Review: Celtic Connections
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 12 Feb 18 - 03:52 PM

I have already cited Irish traditional music and dance, the prayers and performers become incidental, there is huge excitement and emotion in the music, dance and song. That same excitement and emotion is found in archive footage of the old time traditional musicians......the young people of Ireland have carried the culture forward with little or no adaptation.
Folk music should be about getting through emotionally, wringing the hearts and stamping the feet and even lifting the roof with the spirit of the chorus........the too clever tuneless stuff is solely for pseuds.

Subject: RE: Review: Celtic Connections
From: GUEST,Captain Swing
Date: 12 Feb 18 - 04:49 PM

I love traditional music, especially those forms linked to irish and Scottish music. If the music 'leaks' into other genres that's fine by me. I won't always like the results as I found last year when I heard some folk/ 'house'(?) fusion stuff played by a DJ at a festival. I was pleased it was happening, it just wasn't my cup of tea. I didn't consider the people enjoying it to be 'pseuds'.

Trad music has always drifted towards other genres. I hope it continues to do so. Is being a 'folkie' (hate the term personally) incompatible with enjoying Vaughn Williams for instance?

Subject: RE: Review: Celtic Connections
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Feb 18 - 05:24 PM

Of course it isn't.
But have you seen what passes for popular culture recently...can you honestly say that the predictable political "comedians" are actually funny? Foul language, obscenity and downright nastiness is lauded by the youth and force fed to them by an unspeakable media. You see it on this forum, which used to be a haven for discussions of all sorts, all views were supported or argued against, now the place is under a reign of terror, bullies and bigots rule and the prevailing view on all things political protected under threat of expulsion.
The young audience in terms of our genre is being cajoled into seeing worth in pretentious rubbish, while the real emotional gold is obscured.

Subject: RE: Review: Celtic Connections
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 12 Feb 18 - 05:28 PM

Damn forgot to sign in AGAIN!!!

Subject: RE: Review: Celtic Connections
From: GUEST,Captain Swing
Date: 12 Feb 18 - 07:25 PM

I agree with most of what you say there but I've been in too many sessions, clubs etc with old 'folkies' to believe that younger people and popular culture have the monopoly on pretentious rubbish.

Subject: RE: Review: Celtic Connections
From: Mick Lowe
Date: 12 Feb 18 - 10:12 PM

Wow! I've been away from Mudcat a mere 16 years and all sorts of stuff is kicking off. I also moved to the U.S. 18 months ago but whilst in England I always watched what snippets of Celtic Connections was broadcast on BBC Alba.

Saw some brilliant bands from all over the world. If it wasn't for that festival/show I would never have come across Le Vent du Nord from Quebec who are brilliant. Likewise BBC Alba's coverage of the Trad Awards.

I am not aware of the Mr. Bennett being either vilified or applauded here in this thread, but festivals like Celtic Connections and the Scottish Trad Awards plus the countless shows in Ireland I used to be able to get on Tara TV when I had Sky, are the only ones keeping traditional music alive. In England for the most part they seem only too willing to discount their musical heritage in favour of transatlantic crap.

At the end of the day we have to ask ourselves this question. What is folk/traditional music? I can't give a definitive answer, I'm not qualified to do so. As a starting point I would suggest that it is music/songs that celebrate the cultural history of whatever country it refers to. I would also suggest it does not include any kind of fusion but that's just me being nationalistic, which since coming to the U.S. I'm allowed to be.

As a post it, I am hoping sometime soon to resurrect Prof's Music Website for thise of you who remember it.

Subject: RE: Review: Celtic Connections
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 13 Feb 18 - 03:09 AM

"I would also suggest it does not include any kind of fusion "

Couldn't agree more.

Subject: RE: Review: Celtic Connections
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 13 Feb 18 - 03:16 AM

Whatever I have downloaded from BBC Radio Scotland Celtic Connections 2018 has been superb. Some people have nothing better to do than moan!!!

Subject: RE: Review: Celtic Connections
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 13 Feb 18 - 05:11 AM

'Folk music should be about getting through emotionally, wringing the hearts and stamping the feet and even lifting the roof with the spirit of the chorus........the too clever tuneless stuff is solely for pseuds.'

What I saw of the audience at the Grit Orchestra gig suggested that the music did just what you say folk music should do - surely you are not saying the several thousand people in the audience and the others who enjoyed it are all pseuds? We just enjoy what we consider to be good music. Just because you don't like it does not make it of lesser value to the music you do like.

Subject: RE: Review: Celtic Connections
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 13 Feb 18 - 05:43 AM

Well said Guest Joe G!

Subject: RE: Review: Celtic Connections
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 13 Feb 18 - 06:29 AM

Surely we are forgetting that folk music must only be performed in a way approved by the folk police or Ewan McControlfreak!!!

Subject: RE: Review: Celtic Connections
From: Gallus Moll
Date: 13 Feb 18 - 06:50 AM

hahahaahh!!!!

Subject: RE: Review: Celtic Connections
From: GUEST,Captain Swing
Date: 13 Feb 18 - 07:12 AM

"No fusion" - what nonsense!

Without fusion there would be no Shetland Music, Cajun & Zydeco, Cape Breton Music, Ragtime. In Celtic music there would be no mandolins,banjos ( OK, that would probably be a positive), bouzoukis etc, etc. O'Carolan tunes would be outlawed.

Traditional music positively thrives on fusion. I imagine that there would have been more fusion in the past if economics and invention had allowed more people to travel more easily and further.

The idea of keeping traditions discrete is a spurious affectation of (parts of) the folk revival and these days the "we've always done it this way" brigade.

Subject: RE: Review: Celtic Connections
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 13 Feb 18 - 07:47 AM

In my view it is important that the source material survives but I see know problems at all mixing it up with other musical forms - one of the most exciting things I have ever heard was what an artist who went under the name of Broadcaster did with samples from the original Radio Ballads. Chumbawamba also did wonderful things with samples of folk songs on their CD 'Readymades'. The more we can get folk music, in any form, out into the wider community the more likely we are to attract new people into discovering the source material and maybe even becoming folkies themselves.

Subject: RE: Review: Celtic Connections
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 13 Feb 18 - 07:48 AM

'No' not 'know'!!

Subject: RE: Review: Celtic Connections
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Feb 18 - 07:56 AM

"Queen were 'more proficient'than The Stones or The Beatles"
?????
Words fail me.

Subject: RE: Review: Celtic Connections
From: GUEST,Captain Swing
Date: 13 Feb 18 - 08:20 AM

Guest 07:56

I am speaking as a massive Beatles fan here and I like the Stones quite a lot as well but neither band could be classified as technically great musicians. They were extremely resourceful musicians who made the absolute best of their talents. Through their imagination, creativity and innovation the Beatles music, in my opinion, sits well above all of the other bands of the era.

But I can still appreciate that Queen are technically more accomplished even though their music does little for me. I quite like Bohemian Rhapsody though.

Subject: RE: Review: Celtic Connections
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 13 Feb 18 - 08:54 AM

From: GUEST
Date: 13 Feb 18 - 07:56 AM

"Queen were 'more proficient'than The Stones or The Beatles"
?????
Words fail me.

Promises promises

Subject: RE: Review: Celtic Connections
From: gillymor
Date: 13 Feb 18 - 09:17 AM

When did a ballad like "The House Carpenter" become "static" and not dynamic, on what date was the official "folk" version encased in amber and what committee or academic decided on that particular version played and/or sung in that particular manner? That kind of stilted, authoritarian thinking takes the folk out of folk music.

There are probably millions of musicians that are more proficient than either the individual members of the Beatles and Stones were/are including quite a few teenagers but how many of them will turn out the wide range of wonderful music that those two groups did?

Subject: RE: Review: Celtic Connections
From: GUEST,Santaci
Date: 13 Feb 18 - 10:41 AM

I saw the Grit concert at CC2015 - wonderful in the Concert Hall - but didn't manage to get to this one. On the TV it seemed a bit forced and I watched until Hallaig, then switched off. Maybe it didn't translate well in a broadcast, but IMO it didn't come over very well (and the stunt cyclist looked a bit embarrased). The album Bothy Culture is a classic and deserves all the praise it gets. The Grit Orchestra and Greg Lawson in particular deserve much credit for keeping the flame alive.

But this - "The shambles at Celtic Connections was analogous to the direction of today's society, change simply for the sake of it, thoughtless, destructive and if we don't regain our senses, unstoppable." - is laughable.

I've seen Martyn Bennett doing dancy pipes and laptop stuff in large venues and playing solo in a small club. He was an outstanding musician, hugely respectful of the tradition and also aware of the potential for innovation.

Celtic Connection has always looked for new things (did anyone else love the Heritage des Celtes in 1996?), but comparing it to the decline of society is surely a harrumph too far.

Subject: RE: Review: Celtic Connections
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Feb 18 - 12:14 PM

Well, I've done a quick straw poll amongst my friends and workmates. about thirty so far who have seen a bit of the pantomime. Not one thought the music "listenable", not one sat through the whole performance and this is a big piping area.

Martyn may have been an excellent musician, that is not the point, the whole arrangement was dire, had nothing to do with Celtic or traditional music and has turned Celtic Connections Which was and should be a showpiece, into a bad joke.

Subject: RE: Review: Celtic Connections
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 13 Feb 18 - 12:15 PM

Well, I've done a quick straw poll amongst my friends and workmates. about thirty so far who have seen a bit of the pantomime. Not one thought the music "listenable", not one sat through the whole performance and this is a big piping area.

Martyn may have been an excellent musician, that is not the point, the whole arrangement was dire, had nothing to do with Celtic or traditional music and has turned Celtic Connections Which was and should be a showpiece, into a bad joke.

Subject: RE: Review: Celtic Connections
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 13 Feb 18 - 12:47 PM

As Santaci said it probably didn't come over as well in a broadcast - which is true of a fair bit of music to be honest - but I am not sure that your 30 friends are necessarily a structured representative sample - I'd tend to go on the reaction of the thousands of people in the audience. It wasn't perfect but to say it turns CC into a bad joke is hyperbole of Brexit bus sized proportions!

Subject: RE: Review: Celtic Connections
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 13 Feb 18 - 01:55 PM

Perhaps the best that could be said of the offending televised concert, regardless of its quality, is that its ticket sales provided the revenue to fund some of the good things that happened at Celtic Connections?

Subject: RE: Review: Celtic Connections
From: Gallus Moll
Date: 13 Feb 18 - 08:05 PM

Dear Ake -
gggrrrr!!!! How come MA opinion wisnae includit in yer straw poll?
Um Ah no wan o yer freens / aquaintances?!!!
Ah telt ye way back near the tap o this thread that jist cos ye dinna like summat disnae mean ithers mauna -- ye are entitled tae yer ain opeenion, but sae am ah an ah hiv tae say ah enjoyed the production!
An' ah live in this piping area tae, hiv done fer nigh on 53 years..... an' as ye weel ken ah sing, play a bittie fiddle, dae Burns stuff, run folk events....ah ken a wee bittie aboot the genre.
Sae we shud agree tae differ - Ah'll no' drag ye tae a Greg Lawson / Grit orchestra event (tho I do think you should be open minded to give it a try some time?) but ye shudnae disparage sumpin' an' try tae pit ither fowk aff it jist cos ye dinna like / unnerstaun' it!!!
Love, Gallus

Subject: RE: Review: Celtic Connections
From: GUEST,Captain Swing
Date: 13 Feb 18 - 08:32 PM

Gallus Moll, I really ( completely really in every sense of the word 'really'), could not have said it better myself. Well done!

Subject: RE: Review: Celtic Connections
From: Mick Lowe
Date: 13 Feb 18 - 08:52 PM

I think I have a different understanding/definition of fusion when I said it has no place in folk music. There was a good programme on BBC Alba in a "psuedo pub setting", the name of which I couldn't even begin to try and spell let alone pronounce. Had some brilliant acts though the camera tracking got wearisome at times. Every so often they would have what I call fusion music, bands trying to combine the musical cultures of two different continents.

I think Captain Swing is confusing fusion with development. You also got one thing almost right, the one thing that should be banned from all Western European music is the bouzouki. It has has much place in our music than the bagpipes do in a Mozart opera. I can't recall the guy's name now who is responsible for introducing it into folk music but I saw an interview on t.v. where he said it was his greatest regret. They should all be collected up and burnt in one big ritual ceremony.

Purely by chance I came across an album called "Rubber Folk", produced I think by Mike Harding it was a bunch of folk artists including John Tamm and Ralph McTell covering the Beatles' Rubber Soul Album. Interesting and very good in parts but it doesn't make it folk music.

Okay..that should set a few more cats amongst the pigeons...

Subject: RE: Review: Celtic Connections
From: GUEST,ake
Date: 14 Feb 18 - 02:20 AM

Well Gallus, ah know thit you're beautiful, talented and an all round good egg, an' you know thit ah'm no the worst ootae a bad bunch, so we should be able tae haud diffrint opinions on the direction o' the music withoot fa'in oot?
Whit makes ye think ah don't "understaun" whit the pantomime in the SEC wis aw aboot?.....Ahm no as stupit as you seem tae think, it wis a "production" as opposed to real in yer belly traditional music.
It wis produced and promoted for an elite group of pseuds, a group who have all but taken over traditional music and its presentation in the media.
Where this pseudo- artistic faction go a section of our young people follow like sheep.....an ah don't mean you, for have yit tae encounter a "ginger" sheep.    Love A.

Subject: RE: Review: Celtic Connections
From: GUEST,Santaci
Date: 14 Feb 18 - 03:29 AM

But, Mick Lowe, both the bouzouki and bagpipe were first described in the eastern Med / near east area, so maybe we should stick with the Carnyx and nothing else. (Johnny Moynahan, wasn't it?)

"It wis produced and promoted for an elite group of pseuds." No, it was one of the BIG events that can only really happen at big festivals, not to everyone's taste but every bit as relevant to the tradition as a few grumbling old men sitting in a corner singing for themselves.

Subject: RE: Review: Celtic Connections
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 14 Feb 18 - 04:02 AM

I'm getting a bit tired of being described as a pseud!!. I'm a music lover - I enjoy many different genres and open minded to others. Those I particularly adore include Sibelius, Vaughan Williams, Finzi, Pink Floyd, Renaissance, Miles Davis, Arun Ghosh, John Tams, Jez Lowe, Tickled Pink, Cara Dillon, Treacherous Orchestra, Eliza Carthy, Runrig, Warsaw Village Band, Sailif Keita, a wide range of Eastern European, African and Middle Eastern music and of course Martyn Bennett. I also enjoy a fair bit of trad. Because I appreciate a wide range of music does that make me, and those like me who love music without borders or constraints, a pseud? I don't think so. Perhaps when we can have a discussion without insulting other people's musical tastes and name calling then we can move on to something more constructive

Subject: RE: Review: Celtic Connections
From: Will Fly
Date: 14 Feb 18 - 04:14 AM

Well said, Joe G. Long live variety, combinations of genres, and adventure and experimentation in music.

I saw the great Michael McGoldrick at a concert in Sussex some months ago. Wonderful, wonderful playing on pipes and flutes - with a most eclectic and exhilarating repertoire. 50+ years ago, I was thrilled beyond measure to hear the guitar stuff the Davy Graham brought us. Same feeling.

It's possible to love the old AND get to grips with the new.

Subject: RE: Review: Celtic Connections
From: Allan Conn
Date: 14 Feb 18 - 06:12 AM

Well said both of you! Thought this was an interesting short film. You can click on a tab where Greg Lawson (the conductor and orchestral arranger) is talking just before the initial performance of Grit in 2015. Talking about what he was trying to do and why he was doing it.

http://www.martynbennett.com/A015.html

Subject: RE: Review: Celtic Connections
From: GUEST,Captain Swing
Date: 14 Feb 18 - 06:53 AM

"I think Captain Swing is confusing fusion with development."

Not at all Mick Lowe, I chose my words carefully. There a plenty of examples of music form developing by fusion.

"You also got one thing almost right, the one thing that should be banned from all Western European music is the bouzouki."

What nonsense! There are so many counters to this I'm spoilt for choice.

I'll leave it to Martin Carthy who knows a thing or two about all this:

"Folk music is not an archive. If you see it as that, it becomes like a butterfly in a glass case. Folk music has to live and breathe. I'm not interested in heritage – this stuff is alive, we must claim it, use it."

"Every instrument which plays a melody will do different things to that tune, and I've become interested in this style which is basically playing the song itself on the instrument."

Subject: RE: Review: Celtic Connections
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Feb 18 - 07:51 AM

would you guys no' be better to stop congratulating one another on the bouquet of the pish ye talk and start addressin' the contradictions between the modern phenomenon of psycho-trad and the real thing?

Subject: RE: Review: Celtic Connections
From: GUEST,ake
Date: 14 Feb 18 - 07:55 AM

That wis me, for anybody that husnae guessed.

Subject: RE: Review: Celtic Connections
From: Will Fly
Date: 14 Feb 18 - 08:23 AM

We're not congratulating ourselves, you silly man - we're in agreement on a fundamental opinion about music. Obviously not your opinion, but who cares. I've been making music for over 50 years, and my views are as valid as yours. I've played music of all sorts, both professionally and otherwise, and never played anything I wasn't enthused about.

Who gives a toss about what you call psycho-trad and "the real thing"? All that matters is what sounds good to the individual - and every one of us is an individual - that we believe in what we play, and that we play to the best of our abilities. That's the real thing. All the rest is, as you put it, pish.

Subject: RE: Review: Celtic Connections
From: gillymor
Date: 14 Feb 18 - 09:38 AM

Nicely put, Will.

Subject: RE: Review: Celtic Connections
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 14 Feb 18 - 10:20 AM

Yes perfectly put Will. Clearly Ake thinks he is the sole arbiter of taste. Fortunately most folk enthusiasts do not take such a narrow view and are open to a wide range of music.

I think the discussion has probably run its course. Ake thinks he is right, most of us think he is wrong and extremely narrow minded in his taste. That is his prerogative, I have friends who only love trad and those who hate it but that is their choice. I don't insult them or tell them they are wrong

Subject: RE: Review: Celtic Connections
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Feb 18 - 11:22 AM

"the modern phenomenon of psycho-trad and the real thing?"
Why don't you just listen to your "real thing", and leave others to listen to - and presumably even enjoy - "psycho-trad", without them having to suffer tedious, uninformed abuse from you.
One of the stupidest, most pointless discussions on Mudcat for a long time.

Subject: RE: Review: Celtic Connections
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Feb 18 - 12:22 PM

It was a tuneless racket and very pretentious into the bargain, but the most disgraceful thing is that it was presented on national TV, on Scotland's premier Celtic and Traditional music platform purporting to be what it obviously was not......tuneful, entertaining, or anything to do with folk music.

There are dozens of talented musicians and groups who never even get a sniff of a large TV audience. It must be extremely frustrating to these people to find themselves coming second to this "lovey" drivel.

Subject: RE: Review: Celtic Connections
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Feb 18 - 12:39 PM

Apologies, that was me and apologies to Gallus Moll....."gingers" can be sheep too" :0)
"ginger sheep"

Subject: RE: Review: Celtic Connections
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Feb 18 - 12:53 PM

"It was a tuneless racket and very pretentious into the bargain, "
IN YOUR OPINION.

Subject: RE: Review: Celtic Connections
From: GUEST,Santaci
Date: 14 Feb 18 - 01:07 PM

Some of the tunes in the tuneless racket were traditional you know.

Subject: RE: Review: Celtic Connections
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 14 Feb 18 - 02:53 PM

I think this is just a waste of everyone's time - Ake is obviously an expert on folk music and no one else is entitled to an opinion on the quality or value of music. I'm on the side of the thousands of people in that hall and no doubt the thousands who enjoyed it on TV.

There are loads of great bands who never get TV coverage in all genres of music - just because those I have a particular love for are not shown on TV and stuff I am not so keen on is shown I don't insult the people who like those bands - I don't insult the music or those who have spent many hours composing, arranging, rehearsing, learning their instruments

To be honest it is up to the BBC what they show - they made a good call on this occasion - there may have been stuff I'd have liked more, there would definitely be stuff I'd like less but in the end it was a hugely important concert for the festival and therefore I see no reason why the BBC should not have shown it. Complain to the BBC if you must but don't try to tell the rest of us what we should or shouldn't enjoy. I'm sure I would hate some of the music you like but I wouldn't say you shouldn't be given the opportunity to hear it or see it on TV if it were shown

I'm out of here now - just as well there are probably no non folkies looking in on here as they'd be appalled by the narrow mindedness of some of the contributors and it would do nothing to attract people to the music

Subject: RE: Review: Celtic Connections
From: Johnny J
Date: 14 Feb 18 - 04:43 PM

A couple of points.

The title is misleading. This discussion is not a review of Celtic Connections but only one concert.
Also, Celtic Connections is not and has never claimed to a "pure" trad or even a folk festival although it does feature many great exponents of these in several concerts too.

There are many other festivals which feature the so called "real thing". Smaller and less known ones, admittedly, but it's still a minority interest whether we like it or not.

Subject: RE: Review: Celtic Connections
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 14 Feb 18 - 05:05 PM

Agreed Johnny J: perhaps a Mudelf could change the title of the thread to Review: Celtic Connections Grit Orchestra Concert at SSE Hydro.
From what I have read here and on Facebook, views of the concert are very polarised - loved it or loathed it. Among my friends the sizeable majority are in favour and this includes a good few, and myself, who were there on the night. And others have expressed their opinions of the TV broadcast on BBC 2: the latter in itself is a major breakthrough in terms of recognition of how important this concert was.
I was at the first Grit concert, the opening concert of Celtic Connections 2015, and described it then as one of the best concerts I have ever been to in my whole life (3-score and ten +!)
I did not enjoy the recent concert quite as much: yes, there were the spectacular bits with Danny McAskill and the various acrobats, which could only have been staged in a larger venue than the Glasgow Royal Concert Hall (the venue for the 2015 concert), but the SSE Hydro, to my mind, was just TOO big: left you feeling disconnected from the orchestra.
It was a shame that Greg Lawson's impassioned speeches were NOT included in the TV broadcast: to me they were an integral part of the whole night, and might perhaps help to persuade the unbelievers what it was all about: a celebration of Martyn Bennett's life and work.
Despite my reservations, it WAS worth going to, and also watching on TV a week later.

Subject: RE: Review: Celtic Connections
From: Johnny J
Date: 14 Feb 18 - 05:13 PM

I enjoyed the concert on TV.
We don't know if Martyn would necessarily have wished the big orchestral treatment and spectacle but I suspect he would have been very proud.