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Origins: The two Kemp's Jigs

GUEST 06 Feb 18 - 12:08 PM
Helen 06 Feb 18 - 01:54 PM
Helen 06 Feb 18 - 02:18 PM
GUEST 06 Feb 18 - 02:41 PM
GUEST 06 Feb 18 - 06:04 PM
Helen 07 Feb 18 - 02:24 PM
treewind 07 Feb 18 - 02:30 PM
Jack Campin 07 Feb 18 - 02:37 PM
leeneia 08 Feb 18 - 10:38 AM
GUEST 08 Feb 18 - 06:16 PM
GUEST,Little Robyn 08 Feb 18 - 07:19 PM
Helen 08 Feb 18 - 10:58 PM
Helen 10 Feb 18 - 02:52 AM
leeneia 10 Feb 18 - 10:42 PM
Senoufou 11 Feb 18 - 06:12 AM
Helen 11 Feb 18 - 01:16 PM
Senoufou 11 Feb 18 - 01:44 PM
leeneia 11 Feb 18 - 07:00 PM
GUEST 12 Feb 18 - 09:30 AM
Helen 12 Feb 18 - 01:36 PM
Stower 14 Feb 18 - 04:47 PM
Stower 14 Feb 18 - 04:49 PM
Helen 15 Feb 18 - 01:23 AM
GUEST,Jerry 15 Feb 18 - 03:16 AM
GUEST,Mick Pearce (MCP) 15 Feb 18 - 11:03 AM
Helen 15 Feb 18 - 01:49 PM
GUEST,Mick Pearce (MCP) 15 Feb 18 - 02:21 PM
GUEST,Mick Pearce (MCP) 15 Feb 18 - 02:27 PM
Helen 15 Feb 18 - 02:34 PM
Helen 15 Feb 18 - 02:42 PM
GUEST,Mick Pearce (MCP) 15 Feb 18 - 04:01 PM
Stower 15 Feb 18 - 05:23 PM
Helen 15 Feb 18 - 06:53 PM
Helen 16 Feb 18 - 07:31 PM
Stower 17 Feb 18 - 11:47 AM
Helen 17 Feb 18 - 05:31 PM
Stower 18 Feb 18 - 08:30 AM
Helen 18 Feb 18 - 01:46 PM
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Subject: Origins: The two Kemp's Jigs
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Feb 18 - 12:08 PM

Hello everyone, I'm trying to find a composer/original publication/some idea of the origin of the lively (D major) tune, Kemp's Jig.

There is a really nice D minor tune of the same name in Playford, but it's a totally different tune. I've seen some suggestions that John Dowland composed Kemp's Jig, but if he did, surely it was the latter, being a fairly melancholy tune? So, does anyone have any idea on the origin of the other, lively tune of the same name?

Thanks, Gordon


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Subject: RE: Origins: The two Kemp's Jigs
From: Helen
Date: 06 Feb 18 - 01:54 PM

Welcome to Mudcat, Guest.

I love Kemp's Jig. It makes me smile every time I hear it.

I originally heard it on the Gryphon vinyl album way back in 1973.

Then, in 1974 I heard the Meg Christian guitar version on the track Freest Fancy/Kemp's Jig. It has a beautiful sound on the guitar.

Do you have a link to the other melancholy tune so that we can compare the tunes? (I'm assuming that the Gryphon version is the lively version, which is the same tune used by Meg Christian.)

I'll do some searching and see what I can find out.

Helen


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Subject: RE: Origins: The two Kemp's Jigs
From: Helen
Date: 06 Feb 18 - 02:18 PM

A quick internet search:

Tune specs, sheet music, ABC notation

Tunearch Kemp's Jig

Interesting! Only the last tune on that page sounds the same as the Kemp's Jig versions I have heard. (Except that the tune cuts out not quite at the end. Maybe the last bit is missing from the notation.)

More info on tune history

Tunearch info

KEMP'S JIG. AKA and see "Roland." English, Country Dance Tune. D Major (Johnson, Raven): D Minor (Playford). Standard tuning (fiddle). One part (Raven): AB (Johnson): AAB (Playford). Published by Playford in his English Dancing Master (1651). The tune dates to the 16th century and commemorates the feat of Will Kemp, a member and shareholder with William Shakespeare in the Company of the Lord Chamberlain's Men and the Globe Theatre, who bet he could dance a morris jig from London to Norwich (about 125 miles).

More research to come.


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Subject: RE: Origins: The two Kemp's Jigs
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Feb 18 - 02:41 PM

Hi Helen,

Yes, the D minor/aeolian tune is the one in Playford - a really nice tune.

The last one, as you say, is more or less the well-known tune (and yes, I too had/have that old Gryphon album), but we still don't know from whence it came!

It could be a traditional country dance tune, but to me it has a different feel.

Gordon


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Subject: RE: Origins: The two Kemp's Jigs
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Feb 18 - 06:04 PM

There are two versions in Playford, both different keys and stray reasonably far from each other (while still ultimately being recognisably the same tune). They are in different keys and, from what I remember, the key signature for at least one of them is pretty ambiguous.


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Subject: RE: Origins: The two Kemp's Jigs
From: Helen
Date: 07 Feb 18 - 02:24 PM

Hi Gordon,

Here is a Lute version of Kemp's Jig

Here is a version of Kemp's Jig - English Dancing Master 1651 - Playford

and an image of the music from the original book:

Kemp's Jegg from Playford

But just to clarify, you want to know the origin of the other more well known Kemp's Jig? Is that right?

Just found this. I'm trying to decipher the music notation page but the caption on the photo says that it shows Kemp's Jig:

Lute manuscripts uploaded to Cambridge Digital Library

Found it:
Kemp's Jig - page 194

It's at the bottom of the page. The name is at the end of the last line of music notation.

It still doesn't say who wrote it. I don't know about you, but as an ex-librarian, it gives me a (nerdy, librarian-type) rush to see a manuscript as old as that with Kemp's Jig in it.

Further searches to continue.

Helen


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Subject: RE: Origins: The two Kemp's Jigs
From: treewind
Date: 07 Feb 18 - 02:30 PM

It might be worth asking on the tradtunes Yahoo! group/mailing list.

There are some pretty knowledgeable people there, and they love research like this.

I'm subscribed to it by email; I think you can visit it on the web too.


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Subject: RE: Origins: The two Kemp's Jigs
From: Jack Campin
Date: 07 Feb 18 - 02:37 PM

If you subscribe to anything on Yahoo, every spammer on the planet will have your email address, bank account number and condom size.


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Subject: RE: Origins: The two Kemp's Jigs
From: leeneia
Date: 08 Feb 18 - 10:38 AM

Thanks to Helen's question, I will be playing Kemp's Jig with my friends this Sunday. I have a duet from the Classical Music Archives, and they say that is was written by John Dowland. This would be the version in D, 4/4 time. It is the third piece on the Tunearch page which Helen linked above.

Here's a page with the original Playford dance, (Kemp's Jegg) which is the 6/8 tune in F.

http://imslp.org/wiki/The_Dancing_Master_(Playford,_John)

The second version on the Tunearch page, the version from Walsh, is easier to play if you change the key to F. That makes sense of the E's. But even after I did the work of figuring out how to play it, I didn't think it was worth the effort.


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Subject: RE: Origins: The two Kemp's Jigs
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Feb 18 - 06:16 PM

Based on nothing more than 'feel', I'd say if John Dowland wrote a tune called Kemp's Jig it would be the one in Playford in D minor, which does sound 'Dowlandesque'. It's the D major one that's the problem!


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Subject: RE: Origins: The two Kemp's Jigs
From: GUEST,Little Robyn
Date: 08 Feb 18 - 07:19 PM

There are several threads on Kemp and his jig already on Mudcat. This one gives a bit more background info but if you type Kemp's jig in the knowledge search box, many more turn up.
https://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=33554#447552

Robyn


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Subject: RE: Origins: The two Kemp's Jigs
From: Helen
Date: 08 Feb 18 - 10:58 PM

Thanks for the info, Robyn.

I spent a bit of time today trying to "translate" the music notation on the Matthew Holmes manuscript to see which version of Kemp's Jig it is. It was slow going, trying to find something to confirm what the notes were on the lute at that time.

I finally found another tune from MH's manuscripts called (mysteriously) The Sick Tune

(I am assuming that it has no connection to the phrase "fully sick", given the hundreds of years which have passed since it was transcribed.

By comparing notation on the lute tablature with the musical notation, I have confirmed that the first few bars of the Kemp's Jig which I linked to earlier on 07 Feb 18 - 02:24 PM (the title of the link is Kemp's Jig - page 194) is the same tune used by Gryphon and Meg Christian, i.e. the tune I know and love.

(Phew! Talk about exercising the brain to keep it in shape. My brain must look like an Olympic athlete at present - but don't worry, the effect won't last. It will revert to a blob in no time at all.)

So, as Matthew Holmes did not attribute the tune to a composer, I think it is highly unlikely that we will find out who wrote it. Unless another manuscript turns up from the same period.

I have to say, while struggling to figure out how the notes on the tablature related to the notes on standard music notation, I took a wrong turn with some information about the tuning of a lute at that period and the resulting tune turned out very strangely. Which may possibly explain why there are markedly different versions of the tune bearing the same name. Just speculating there, but it's possible that someone else transcribed the tune based on assumptions about the tuning.

Given that the tune or tunes date back over 400 years, we may never know, but it is fun trying to find out. (Sorry, my Nerdy Librarian-ness is showing.)

Helen


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Subject: RE: Origins: The two Kemp's Jigs
From: Helen
Date: 10 Feb 18 - 02:52 AM

By sheer coincidence, I was watching the UK comedy TV show called Upstart Crow, written by Ben Elton, inspired by the life of William Shakespeare. It was the second episode of series 1, but who should pop up as one of the characters but William Kempe.

I missed episode 1 so he may have been in that episode as well. The show was made a couple of years ago but this is the first time I have heard about it.

I had to replay the bit where William Shakespeare (played by David Mitchell) called him "Kempe" because I wasn't sure if I had heard correctly, but as the historical documents have shown, Kempe or Kemp was one of Shakespeare's favoured actors.

The coincidence struck me because of this thread appearing, but then again maybe it isn't a coincidence if our guest, Gordon, had also been watching the show.

Are you in Australia, by any chance Gordon?

Helen


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Subject: RE: Origins: The two Kemp's Jigs
From: leeneia
Date: 10 Feb 18 - 10:42 PM

I did some searching but couldn't verify that Dowland wrote one of those jigs. He did publish a lute book with some jolly tunes, but Kemp's Jig doesn't seem to be one of them. Either way, it's a good tune.


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Subject: RE: Origins: The two Kemp's Jigs
From: Senoufou
Date: 11 Feb 18 - 06:12 AM

In Norwich there's a Morris side called Kemp's Men, formed in honour of Will Kemp and his long dance from Norwich to London. I've followed them for years, so I've just send them an e mail asking if they have any knowledge of the origins of the jig.
Norris Winstone MBE was their extremely knowledgeable musician, and although he died a few years ago, he may have left some sort of information about the jig which some of the present side might remember.
I'll report back if/when they reply.

By the way, in May 2015, Rick Jones Morris danced the whole distance (he was 58) in imitation of Kemp's 'nine daies' wonder'. Police tried to arrest him at one stage. They thought he'd escaped from a mental hospital!


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Subject: RE: Origins: The two Kemp's Jigs
From: Helen
Date: 11 Feb 18 - 01:16 PM

Thanks Senoufou, any information would be useful.

That's funny about the police, but then again, would many people want to dance for nine days?


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Subject: RE: Origins: The two Kemp's Jigs
From: Senoufou
Date: 11 Feb 18 - 01:44 PM

I certainly wouldn't Helen! He suffered from terrible blisters. He was wearing a jester's costume and waving his two hankies. I suppose he did look rather bizarre on the A134 near Bury St Edmund's, where the Police stopped him.


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Subject: RE: Origins: The two Kemp's Jigs
From: leeneia
Date: 11 Feb 18 - 07:00 PM

We had our early music session today, playing 'Kemp's Jegg' from Playford's 1650 book. To our beginners it looked daunting, so I suggested we play it as if the dotted eighths and sixteenths were all straight eighth notes. Once we got the hang of it and knew how it should go, we played it as written.

People really liked it. We played it so many times we never even got to the other Kemp's Jig.


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Subject: RE: Origins: The two Kemp's Jigs
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Feb 18 - 09:30 AM

I fear we may never know the actual origin of the D major Kemp's Jig. The D minor/aeolian tune in Playford is a cracker and no mistake, but a completely different tune. I play them together, the Playford one first.

There is another tune in Playford, called 'The Fine Companion', that has 'Kemp's Jig' listed as an alternative title, but this is different again.

No, Helen, I'm not in Australia, but the medieval town of Sandwich in Kent, England. That being said, I was shocked to discover The Upstart Crow had passed me by. It looks great.

Thanks to everyone for all your interest and help - I have another, similar question that I'll put in another new thread.

Gordon


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Subject: RE: Origins: The two Kemp's Jigs
From: Helen
Date: 12 Feb 18 - 01:36 PM

Hi Gordon,

Thanks for an interesting topic. I'll have to listen to the Playford version a bit more because it makes little sense to me, musically but a few more listens might sort it out in my brain.

You are in luck. Australian ABC has this:

Upstart Crow Series 1, Ep 1 - iView available until 8 April 2018

I missed the first episode and went to the free iView to watch it. You don't need to register. I am hoping it's available to view outside of Oz. Episode 3 will be broadcast on Friday 16 Feb (Oz time)so the other episodes will come online as they are broadcast.

Helen


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Subject: RE: Origins: The two Kemp's Jigs
From: Stower
Date: 14 Feb 18 - 04:47 PM

Some confusion here.

It is true that ‘Kemps Jigge’ refers to William Kemp or Kempe (c.1560-c.1603), a member of William Shakespeare's (1564-1616) acting troupe. The tune that bears his name is not a jig as we understand it today: in Shakespeare's time it meant a lively farsical play after the main play. As well as playing major roles in Shakespeare's plays, Kemp's job was to perform these jigs, and it is probably from this that the tune gets its name: it was probably a tune that accompanied one of Kemp's farsical jigs. In 1612 the Middlesex justices of the peace made an order suppressing jigs because they provoked breaches of the peace!

William Kemp is most remembered for his energetic Morris dancing, which he once performed for nine days (twenty three days if you count the days off) during February 1600, dancing all the way from London to Norwich. This became known as his “nine dais wonder”, about which Kemp wrote a book, and for which the Mayor of Norwich gave him a forty shilling a year pension for the rest of his life. Since the tune that bears his name appears in the lute manuscript Dd.2.11, c. 1590-95, and his “nine dais wonder” was in 1600, then the tune cannot possibly be 'about' or 'in commenoration of' the feat, as many websites claim, because the tune was first, nor does he tune have any connection at all to the Elizabethan/Jacobean lutenist-composer John Dowland, as one website erroneously claims.

‘The Parlement’ and 'Nuttmigs and Ginger' are closely related tunes using essentially the same musical material. It is possible that the tunes are related in the same way that traditional families of tunes or songs develop: someone misremembered a bit, or decided they would rather play it a different way, and so it changes. However, the relationship may be only literary rather than traditional: Elizabethan composers, in the days before effective copyright, felt free to change melodies at will.

The Playford melody is musically unrelated and its origin is unknown.


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Subject: RE: Origins: The two Kemp's Jigs
From: Stower
Date: 14 Feb 18 - 04:49 PM

Wooops! In my post above, I don't know how 'Kempes Jigge' turned into ?Kemps Jigge? and 'nine dais wonder' into ?nine dais wonder?!


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Subject: RE: Origins: The two Kemp's Jigs
From: Helen
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 01:23 AM

Hi Stower, the punctuation glitch haunts everyone who copies and pastes certain punctuation marks from other sources. It's especially interesting with other languages, e.g. Gaelic.

I don't know for sure about the evidence on Dowling but his usual style is totally different to the Kemp's Jig found in the lute manuscript Dd.2.11, c. 1590-95 - which is not the Playford tune.

I'd be prepared to make a bet that it wasn't one of Dowling's tunes. But you know how it is these days on the internet, someone makes a half-baked statement which may not have a basis in truth, and other people pick it up and repeat it, and by repetition it becomes truth.

I think Matthew Holmes transcribed lute tunes that he had heard so the tunes could have been around for some time before he wrote them down. Your logic is correct that if Kemp's 9 day's wonder occurred in 1600 then the tune cannot have been composed in his honour, but he was a member of Shakespeare's troupe for many years so someone else may have composed the tune either for one of Kemp's performances or as some sort of tribute to him.

Helen


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Subject: RE: Origins: The two Kemp's Jigs
From: GUEST,Jerry
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 03:16 AM

Helen - I think it’s not just whether it’s “punctuation copied from other sources”, because it’s prone to insert it’s own ?s when it’s straight text as well! Isn’t it more to do with some of us using old hardware or software?


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Subject: RE: Origins: The two Kemp's Jigs
From: GUEST,Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 11:03 AM

Here's the version of Kemp's Jig from the Matthew Holmes book (melody line only):

X:1
T:Kemp's Jig
C:Matthew Holmes Lute Book
L:1/4
M:4/4
K:F
a3/2 b/ a g | f3/2 g/ f e | d c d e | f c F2 |
a/g/a/b/ a g | f/d/f/g/ f e | d c d/c/d/e/ | f c F2 ||
a c' a c' | a c'/b/ a2 | g b g b | g f/^d/ =d e |
f c A c | d c d e | f c F2 ||
a c' a/b/ c' | a c'/b/ a/g/ f | g b g b | g b g/^g/ b | g f/^d/ =d e |
f c A/B/ c | f/c/d/c/ A/B/ c | d c d/c/d/e/ | f c F2 |] %24


And here transposed to (the perhaps more familiar) D:

X:1
T:Kemp's Jig
C:Matthew Holmes Lute Book
L:1/4
M:4/4
N:Transposed to D from F in original tablature
K:D
f3/2 g/ f e | d3/2 e/ d c | B A B c | d A D2 |
f/e/f/g/ f e | d/B/d/e/ d c | B A B/A/B/c/ | d A D2 ||
f a f a | f a/g/ f2 | e g e g | e d/=c/ B ^c |
d A F A | B A B c | d A D2 ||
f a f/g/ a | f a/g/ f/e/ d | e g e g | e g e/=f/ g | e d/=c/ B ^c |
d A F/G/ A | d/A/B/A/ F/G/ A | B A B/A/B/c/ | d A D2 |]


The tune as presented there had a slightly odd structure, with only 7 bars in the B section and 9 in the C section. In the classical guitar transcription I have this has been regularised by an insert after bar 13 in B and deletion of bar 19, giving the version below (which I present in D; this is the usual minor 3rd transposition of lute tablature to the guitar):

X:1
T:Kemp's Jig
C:Matthew Holmes Lute Book
L:1/4
M:4/4
N:Transposed from F to D and sections regularised
K:D
f3/2 g/ f e | d3/2 e/ d c | B A B c | d A D2 |
f/e/f/g/ f e | d/B/d/e/ d c | B A B/A/B/c/ | d A D2 ||
f a f a | f a/g/ f2 | e g e g | e d/=c/ B ^c |
d A F A | d A/G/ F A | B A B c | d A D2 ||
f a f/g/ a | f a/g/ f/e/ d | e g e g | e d/=c/ B ^c |
d A F/G/ A | d/A/B/A/ F/G/ A | B A B/A/B/c/ | d A D2 |]


Mick


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Subject: RE: Origins: The two Kemp's Jigs
From: Helen
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 01:49 PM

Thanks heaps,Mick Pearce!

There are spaces at the beginning of each line which is a hurdle that the ABC Converter at Mandolin Tabs can't jump over so below are the ABC's without the spaces.

Please tell me, were the ABC's available already somewhere? I'm asking because - not knowing one end of a lute from the other, and certainly not knowing what the tuning might have been for Matthew Holmes - I found it very slow going until I found the tune I mentioned above called The Sick Tune which showed standard notation and the Matthew Holmes manuscript notation on the same page.

My first attempt, based on a different tuning assumption, gave a very weird result so it was a joy to hear the tune I know start to show as I slowly and painfully translated the notation to standard music notation when I used the G tuning used on The Sick Tune.

The ABC's from Mick Pearce with spaces at the beginning of the lines removed.

X:1
T:Kemp's Jig
C:Matthew Holmes Lute Book
L:1/4
M:4/4
K:F
a3/2 b/ a g | f3/2 g/ f e | d c d e | f c F2 |
a/g/a/b/ a g | f/d/f/g/ f e | d c d/c/d/e/ | f c F2 ||
a c' a c' | a c'/b/ a2 | g b g b | g f/^d/ =d e |
f c A c | d c d e | f c F2 ||
a c' a/b/ c' | a c'/b/ a/g/ f | g b g b | g b g/^g/ b | g f/^d/ =d e |
f c A/B/ c | f/c/d/c/ A/B/ c | d c d/c/d/e/ | f c F2 |] %24



X:1
T:Kemp's Jig
C:Matthew Holmes Lute Book
L:1/4
M:4/4
N:Transposed from F to D and sections regularised
K:D
f3/2 g/ f e | d3/2 e/ d c | B A B c | d A D2 |
f/e/f/g/ f e | d/B/d/e/ d c | B A B/A/B/c/ | d A D2 ||
f a f a | f a/g/ f2 | e g e g | e d/=c/ B ^c |
d A F A | d A/G/ F A | B A B c | d A D2 ||
f a f/g/ a | f a/g/ f/e/ d | e g e g | e d/=c/ B ^c |
d A F/G/ A | d/A/B/A/ F/G/ A | B A B/A/B/c/ | d A D2 |]



X:1
T:Kemp's Jig
C:Matthew Holmes Lute Book
L:1/4
M:4/4
N:Transposed from F to D and sections regularised
K:D
f3/2 g/ f e | d3/2 e/ d c | B A B c | d A D2 |
f/e/f/g/ f e | d/B/d/e/ d c | B A B/A/B/c/ | d A D2 ||
f a f a | f a/g/ f2 | e g e g | e d/=c/ B ^c |
d A F A | d A/G/ F A | B A B c | d A D2 ||
f a f/g/ a | f a/g/ f/e/ d | e g e g | e d/=c/ B ^c |
d A F/G/ A | d/A/B/A/ F/G/ A | B A B/A/B/c/ | d A D2 |]


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Subject: RE: Origins: The two Kemp's Jigs
From: GUEST,Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 02:21 PM

Helen - the transcriptions are mine from the lute tablature.

The standard Renaissance lute tuning is like a modern guitar with the 3rd string (G) tuned down to F# and a minor 3rd higher (ie a capo on guitar fret 3). This gives the tuning (high to low) as G D A F C G. In the lute tablature 'a' is the open string, with successive letters for each higher fret.

This tuning means that when transcribing lute music for the classical guitar (3)=F# (3rd string down to F#) is often specified and the music transposed down a minor 3rd. Then the fingering is identical to the fingering on the lute and you can (with a bit of practice) play directly from the tablature (sounding m3 lower of course).

While I can transcribe directly from tablature, I cheated and just typed the tablature melody line from the score into Musescore2, then added a linked standard line. I then exported to Music Xml (the import/export abc plugin isn't working in current version for Linux) and used online converter from Music XML to abc. It's actually a lot simpler than it sounds in my description!

The leading spaces were put there by the converter and I left them. abcm2ps doesn't mind them (I used that to check the abc) (and I think the standard should allow them, though it's a while since I last read the standard).

Thanks for putting up the version without the leading spaces.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Origins: The two Kemp's Jigs
From: GUEST,Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 02:27 PM

While I remember, although I notated 'd A D2' at the cadences, these notes would be allowed to ring, so you could take the melody to be just 'd4' in those bars.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Origins: The two Kemp's Jigs
From: Helen
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 02:34 PM

Thanks Mick. All clear.

I have a Celtic lever harp - which I play badly - but find it frustrating trying to play tunes with accidentals because of the flipping levers, I mean lever flipping. LOL. This means that Kemp's Jig starts off ok but then grinds to a halt when I try to move the flipping levers.

In the last couple of years I have been attempting to learn ukulele and I have a concert sized uke using the low G tuning. I am focusing on learning fingerpicking rather than the strummity-strum-strum-strum method.

I recently bought a book called From Lute to Uke: Early Music for Ukulele by Tony Mizen which very happily includes Kemp's Jig (the Matt Holmes version).

(I also bought this one, which is off topic to this thread but it's another good book: Baroque Ukulele by Tony Mizen )


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Subject: RE: Origins: The two Kemp's Jigs
From: Helen
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 02:42 PM

I just listened again to this Kemp's Jig - English Dancing Master 1651 - Playford, which I linked to above on 07 Feb 18 - 02:24 PM.

That version does have a Dowland-like sound to it. I could believe that he may have composed that one.

Mournful. Not jiggish in any modern sense of the word. The wallflower at the dance. Not the bloke at the centre of attention making the moves in the middle of the dance floor (Matt Holmes version).


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Subject: RE: Origins: The two Kemp's Jigs
From: GUEST,Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 04:01 PM

Helen I'm pretty sure that if it was known that Dowland composed it we'd know about it!

Mick


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Subject: RE: Origins: The two Kemp's Jigs
From: Stower
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 05:23 PM

To be clear, Kemp's Jig has no relationship whatever with John Dowland and is not at all, to my ears or hands, in his style (being a lute player myself and a performer of John Dowland's compositions).

I don't know where the notion came from that the tune is associated with JD. I've only seen this claimed on the website, The Session. I have two theories.

1. 'This is a lute tune and John Dowland is the name of a lute player I've heard of (probably the only one), so it may be by him'. This is clutching at straws.

2. A version of tune, 'The Parlement', appears in the Folger Dowland MS. This manuscript includes compositions by Dowland in his own hand and with his signature, but this is not one of them. This tune is anonymous.

"I think Matthew Holmes transcribed lute tunes that he had heard so the tunes could have been around for some time before he wrote them down" is not necessarily accurate on either count. Holmes was an extremely able musician. While some of the pieces in his books may be his own arrangements this cannot be proven: they are as likely to have been copied from other contemporaneous collections. While it is true that music in the medieval and renaissance periods could have a considerable timespan of popularity, if the earliest evidence for a tune is, say, 1595, then we cannot claim an earlier date than 1595 without straying into the realm of claims without foundation.


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Subject: RE: Origins: The two Kemp's Jigs
From: Helen
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 06:53 PM

Hi Stower,

My intention was not to say that Matthew Holmes made his own arrangements, but that he possibly compiled his manuscript from either contact with other lute players or composers, or knowledge of other manuscripts. I am not claiming to know anything about MH or his manuscripts or his means of sourcing the lute music or his method of transcription.

I knew nothing about MH or his manuscripts or how he came to write them until I went searching for Kemp's Jig in relation to this thread. I'm sorry if my statement appeared to be otherwise.

I'm leaning very definitely towards your statement "1. 'This is a lute tune and John Dowland is the name of a lute player I've heard of (probably the only one), so it may be by him'. This is clutching at straws." As I said above, "I'd be prepared to make a bet that it wasn't one of Dowland's tunes. But you know how it is these days on the internet, someone makes a half-baked statement which may not have a basis in truth, and other people pick it up and repeat it, and by repetition it becomes truth."

(I just re-read a post of mine above: sorry, my brain thought Dowland and my fingers typed Dowling. I knew who I meant!)


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Subject: RE: Origins: The two Kemp's Jigs
From: Helen
Date: 16 Feb 18 - 07:31 PM

I forgot to say, Stower, that the lute has a beautiful, heart-stirring sound, so I am impressed that you play the lute.

I have a favourite book of music: Elizabethan Song Book: Lute Songs

I bought it maybe 40 years ago.


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Subject: RE: Origins: The two Kemp's Jigs
From: Stower
Date: 17 Feb 18 - 11:47 AM

Thanks, Helen. Yes, the lute is the most difficult instrument I've tried to master, but with hard work it yields rich rewards. Not Kemp's Jig, but this is a tune you may recognise.


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Subject: RE: Origins: The two Kemp's Jigs
From: Helen
Date: 17 Feb 18 - 05:31 PM

Hi Stower,

Yes that tune works well on the lute. Here's a lively tune you could try.

Life's a Treat

:-)
Helen


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Subject: RE: Origins: The two Kemp's Jigs
From: Stower
Date: 18 Feb 18 - 08:30 AM

Hahahahaha! Bookmarked for future spoofing! :-)


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Subject: RE: Origins: The two Kemp's Jigs
From: Helen
Date: 18 Feb 18 - 01:46 PM

Yes Stower, it's a great tune, with lots of possibilities for arrangements.

Shaun the Sheep


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