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Freemasonry. Is it good or bad?
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Subject: Freemasonry. good or bad? From: Iains Date: 07 Feb 18 - 02:37 PM Several British newspapers recently ran an article on Freemasons in Parliament and in Journalism, among others. Should a holder of any kind of public office be obliged to declare membership of such a secretive organisation? Is their loyalty to themselves, their office, or freemasonry? Is membership a direct threat to Democracy? How can it be healthy when the police and judiciary are also riddled with freemasons? Or could we just require a ministry of funny walks to keep tabs on them? https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/feb/04/two-freemasons-lodges-operating-secretly-at-westminster |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Bonzo3legs Date: 07 Feb 18 - 03:51 PM More cranks, as if we don't have enough with vegans and gender neutrals! |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: keberoxu Date: 07 Feb 18 - 04:37 PM Well, BEFORE this sinks below the music section, I'd like to point out: Good or Ill, Freemasonry is part of history, centuries of it. I'm thinking of the Age of Enlightenment in which Central Europe becomes less orthodox in religion and all this literature and music suddenly seems to pour out. The places where German is spoken -- there is no unified Germany at that time -- there is all this poetry, all this music, and most of the poets and composers are, you guessed it, Freemasons. Maybe some of the composers weren't but if it was literature and writing, and the author wrote in German and published in German, and was a man, he was more likely a Mason than not. At this point the Jews were discriminated against, of course. I'm just saying, good or bad, it's literally etched in stone in some respects. |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Jos Date: 08 Feb 18 - 07:40 AM The vocabulary in the original post - 'riddled with' - suggests that the person posing the question may not be seeking unbiased answers. |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Nigel Parsons Date: 08 Feb 18 - 08:02 AM Whether the wording will influence the answers is debatable. The question set out in the title is straightforward, the answer may not be. Freemasons do a lot of good work for charity. That is a good thing. Freemasons help their members by providing support to find jobs, or improve their positions. That may also be a good thing, but, if this happens by giving them an advantage over others who may be better qualified, it is not such a clear cut position. |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: beardedbruce Date: 08 Feb 18 - 08:39 AM "Freemasons help their members by providing support to find jobs, or improve their positions. That may also be a good thing, but, if this happens by giving them an advantage over others who may be better qualified, it is not such a clear cut position." So, what is your opinion of professional networking? |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Donuel Date: 08 Feb 18 - 08:43 AM To be more explicit than Nigel from my experience the credo and teachings of the Free Mason are progressive lofty and Unitarian. However in practice it is a good ol' boys club that will help cover up mistakes made in career and domestic life. It is also used to protect their kids when they are wayward. |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Iains Date: 08 Feb 18 - 08:57 AM If freemasons are purely a force for good then why the reticence of the individual to have public recognition of said good works. My feeling is that the individual mason's secrecy is at least unhealthy in a democracy and potentially a force for far worse. Those in receipt of public funds should disclose their membership or find alternative legit income streams. As Matthew 6:24 says: No man can serve two masters. |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: DMcG Date: 08 Feb 18 - 09:07 AM Both freemasonry and "professional networking" open up possibilities of corruption. It may or may not occur in any given situation, bur the risk is there. What makes freemasonry a greater risk than some other professional networking routes is that it is cross-business: it is possible for a councellor to enter into a corrupt relationship with a builder in a way that is not so easy if both parties are builders, for example. Secrecy is the problem, openness is a good way forward. |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Donuel Date: 08 Feb 18 - 09:12 AM The point was to serve god and man but not serve a divisive church. btw Matthew was full of shit. If Iains wants to use Matthew to further a divisive agenda as gospel he has missed the point George Washington clearly understood. |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Senoufou Date: 08 Feb 18 - 09:17 AM There are many business folk's organised charities (Round Table for example) which do much good without all the secrecy. It's obvious that 'back-scratching' goes on behind the scenes. If not, why not be open? It's a bit like the gangs prevalent nowadays. One holds allegiance to the gang and members 'help' each other out. Freemasonry seems to be the posh equivalent. |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Senoufou Date: 08 Feb 18 - 09:20 AM Iains was merely using a very well-known quote to illustrate his point (with which I agree) Matthew was certainly NOT 'full of shit'. He was one of the Apostles, and much revered by Christians. Why is it that every time Iains opens his mouth, someone jumps on him? Dreadful behaviour. |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Bee-dubya-ell Date: 08 Feb 18 - 09:39 AM I've known a few Shriners, a North American branch of Freemasonry. They are best known for sponsoring a number of pediatric hospitals. They seem to spend most of their time raising funds for the hospitals and consuming distilled spirits. They strike me as folks who never outgrew the university fraternity thing. Relatively harmless as long as they sober up before driving. No more likely to pose a threat to democracy than any other group that tends to wear funny hats and vote Republican. |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Donuel Date: 08 Feb 18 - 09:42 AM Obviously we have different definitions of classic trouble making trollism. Good OR Bad? the question is already an argumentative indictment. As secrets go it is a pretty wide open secret. If you fall for a deliberately divisive secrecy argument then the Masons are bad but have missed the reason of and for good. So we have different thermometers Senofou, we still like cats. |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Steve Shaw Date: 08 Feb 18 - 09:45 AM An item on Radio 4 this afternoon (during the 1o'clock news) referred to the fact that county council planning committees are sometimes stuffed with masons. I wonder why. The authorship of the gospel of Matthew by an apostle is tradition only. There is no evidence that it's really the case. There is no example anywhere in the gospel to suggest that the author was ever an eyewitness to any of the events related. |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Senoufou Date: 08 Feb 18 - 09:51 AM Yes Donuel, we do. Ours are fast sleep on the sofa near the fire just now. I find all the weird ceremonies and secret rituals of the Freemasons distasteful. Do you remember quite recently David Cameron admitted doing...er... some odd things with a pig's head in one of his 'secret societies'? My great uncle was one (not a pig's head, I mean a Freemason) and he flatly refused ever to disclose what they got up to. Most mysterious. The Old Boys' Network is pretty well-known for preferential treatment of members though. I would prefer all decisions and policies to be public knowledge. Why not? |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Donuel Date: 08 Feb 18 - 09:54 AM it ain't necessarily so...the things that you're liable to read in the bible... Remember the point of the Free masons was to be free of a divisive church and usher in enlightenment. |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Senoufou Date: 08 Feb 18 - 09:54 AM Matthew aside Steve, the quote, 'No man can serve two masters' is very apposite. One can't be loyal to two conflicting interests. |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Nigel Parsons Date: 08 Feb 18 - 09:56 AM The Roman Catholic church though is quite clear that membership of the Masons is not compatible with Roman Catholicism. |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Donuel Date: 08 Feb 18 - 10:04 AM Holding two opposing ideas at the same time? I think we can and do. ex. I should .......but I better not (repeat) Remember this is Earth - ANYTHING GOES. CAN"T Always wins early in the race but eventually CAN wins in the end. |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Senoufou Date: 08 Feb 18 - 10:08 AM I suppose if grown men want to prance around wearing satin pinnies with one trouser leg rolled up, putting a dagger to someone's bare chest, doing fancy and bizarre handshakes etc. there's no law which says they cannot. But any beneficial positions offered and accepted, any financial gains thereby achieved, any use of finances belonging in the public sector should all be openly declared and above board. |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Donuel Date: 08 Feb 18 - 10:10 AM Holy Roman inquisitions were not compatible with early Masonic teachings either. RESIST |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Steve Shaw Date: 08 Feb 18 - 10:10 AM I won't argue with that sentiment. But I will challenge the claim that Matthew the gospel writer was an apostle. For a start, no name was originally attached to that gospel and there are quite a few other pointers to the probability that it was neither written by a bloke called Matthew nor by anyone who was a compatriot of Jesus (if there ever was a Jesus at all). There are lots of things in Matthew's gospel that I see the wisdom of, having said all that, and one or two things that I don't agree with. Had I been present for the Sermon on the Mount I might well have been an occasional heckler. Anyway, today I've heard from masons on the wireless that they're fluffy bunnies really, just in it for the friendship, etc., and utterly harmless and not at all secretive. Yes they bare their breasts, even the very few girl ones, they roll up their trouser legs and they have a secret handshake (as do the Sicilian Mafia) and they give each other the third degree (to make sure they're not moles, presumably). But it's all just in fun and it's just tradition and they mean no harm. Like hell. |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Donuel Date: 08 Feb 18 - 10:15 AM Iains may have well have posted 'BOOgyman. Is it good or bad? |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Senoufou Date: 08 Feb 18 - 10:16 AM Hahaha Steve, I have a mental picture of you standing there yelling out your dissent at poor Jesus' efforts to preach. "Blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the Earth." "Oh no they won't!" "Oh yes they will!" Very Monty Pythonesque! |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Greg F. Date: 08 Feb 18 - 10:21 AM Why is it that every time Iains opens his mouth, someone jumps on him? Not EVERY time. He has occasion flashes of reason. He's jumped - and rightly so- when he's being a troll and a prat. |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Donuel Date: 08 Feb 18 - 10:27 AM I thought it was blessed are the cheese makers |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Iains Date: 08 Feb 18 - 11:24 AM ""Blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the Earth." I think the enclosure acts kicked that idea into touch. I wonder how many of the aristocratic landowners responsible for the many enclosure acts happened to be masons? |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Greg F. Date: 08 Feb 18 - 11:59 AM I wonder how many of the aristocratic landowners responsible for the many enclosure acts happened to be Tories?? Or Catholics? Of southpaws? |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Donuel Date: 08 Feb 18 - 12:21 PM Don't tell Jim it was the Jews. ';^/ |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Iains Date: 08 Feb 18 - 12:25 PM Greg I see you take pride in betraying your total ignorance. Well done! |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Jackaroodave Date: 08 Feb 18 - 01:11 PM I confess, it was the vegans. We also stole the grail. |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: DMcG Date: 08 Feb 18 - 01:24 PM The Roman Catholic church though is quite clear that membership of the Masons is not compatible with Roman Catholicism The situation is more complicated, In the days of the 'Penny Catechism' that was certainly the case. Then, quoting the Catholic Herald: 'the Code of Canon Law was reformed, following Vatican II, the canon specifically prohibiting Catholics from joining "Masonic societies" was revised. In the new code, promulgated in 1983 by St John Paul II, explicit mention of Freemasonry was dropped completely. The new Canon 1374 referred only to societies that "plot against the Church".' The Catholic Herald article seems to be a bit stuck in the past (which is the norm for the paper), but is quite clear that the Roman Catholic Church no longer singles out freemasons as such. |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: The Sandman Date: 08 Feb 18 - 01:40 PM Power freaks, who generally speaking join to get on in life, the problem is when freemasons are police force members[ it has happened] and they use their influence to pervert the course of justice |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Iains Date: 08 Feb 18 - 01:48 PM https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/police-reform-thwarted-by-masons-fdg3khrm3 |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Peter the Squeezer Date: 08 Feb 18 - 02:06 PM From BBC news - quoting Dr David Staples, chief executive of the United Grand Lodge of England (UGLE). He told BBC Breakfast: "We're not a secretive society. Nepotism (and) corruption is not tolerated." He added that the handshake used by members during ceremonies is "not secret" but, when he was asked to demonstrate it to viewers of BBC Breakfast, he declined, saying he had "promised" not to. If it's neither sinister or corrupt, then why does it have to be so secretive? |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Donuel Date: 08 Feb 18 - 02:34 PM The secret handshake lies in Peter the squeezer's avatar name. As I said "the Free Mason are progressive, lofty and Unitarian. However in practice it is a good ol' boys club that will help cover up and/or correct mistakes made in career and domestic life. It is also used to protect their kids when they are wayward." Comon guys they are not the Klan. Their whole idea is to have an Omni partisanship. Why secretive? Simple. Things or knowledge people are denied or may not have, automatically makes them desirous. In your case you have a secret you conceal but for a different reason than the Masons. |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Greg F. Date: 08 Feb 18 - 03:06 PM Greg I see you take pride in betraying your total ignorance. Of the enclosures/inclosures, Inanes? Them as threw my forebears off the common lands and reduced them to poverty and sent the to the Americas? Go back to quoting The Mythical Matthew. |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Iains Date: 08 Feb 18 - 03:33 PM For Greg. Proverbs 26:11 |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: robomatic Date: 08 Feb 18 - 03:35 PM Who controls the British crown? Who keeps the metric system down? We do! We do! Who keeps Atlantis off the maps? Who keeps the Martians under wraps? We do! We do! Who holds back the electric car? Who makes Steve Guttenberg, a star? We do! We do! Who robs cave fish of their sight? Who rigs every Oscar night? We do! We do! Sing Along! |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Joe_F Date: 08 Feb 18 - 03:37 PM At any rate, some of them (such as Robert Burns & Rudyard Kipling) could write pretty good songs. |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: EBarnacle Date: 08 Feb 18 - 03:50 PM It is my understanding that many of America's Founding Fathers were Freemasons, including George Washington. Clearly a revolutionary movement. |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Donuel Date: 08 Feb 18 - 03:57 PM White people have much in common with cave fish. We do. You wanna join? nothin to it. jus rare back and do it. You will be unanimously voted in, in a very clever system. You see there are ignorant people anywhere you go. Even they get a vote to let you join or not. If you get a secret black ball they have to vote again until they are all white balls. Between votes subtle teaching goes on. It took me 3 black balls before they got hungry enough to just let it go. |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Donuel Date: 08 Feb 18 - 04:12 PM If you are really unpopular they will make you a sentry to keep you out of the meeting room. Inside it is a lot like Hogwarts. I was a good sentry with duties like the Sargent of Arms for the Congress. The sexist female version of the Masons are the Daughters of the Eastern Star. |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: The Sandman Date: 08 Feb 18 - 04:15 PM Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Joe_F - PM Date: 08 Feb 18 - 03:37 PM At any rate, some of them (such as Robert Burns & Rudyard Kipling) could write pretty good songs. well to be xact two of them , of course many people who were not freemasons wrote prety good songs |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Donuel Date: 08 Feb 18 - 04:28 PM Here is the rub, you have to be referred or invited to join. Asking can be the first step. Leaving is as easy as deciding to stay home. |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Greg F. Date: 08 Feb 18 - 08:25 PM For Greg. Proverbs 26:11 Not surprising, Inanes, that you would have a close association and familiarity with vomit. |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Nigel Parsons Date: 09 Feb 18 - 04:13 AM From: DMcG Date: 08 Feb 18 - 01:24 PM The Roman Catholic church though is quite clear that membership of the Masons is not compatible with Roman Catholicism The situation is more complicated, In the days of the 'Penny Catechism' that was certainly the case. Then, quoting the Catholic Herald: 'the Code of Canon Law was reformed, following Vatican II, the canon specifically prohibiting Catholics from joining 'Masonic societies' was revised. In the new code, promulgated in 1983 by St John Paul II, explicit mention of Freemasonry was dropped completely. The new Canon 1374 referred only to societies that 'plot against the Church'.' The Catholic Herald article seems to be a bit stuck in the past (which is the norm for the paper), but is quite clear that the Roman Catholic Church no longer singles out freemasons as such. The same source makes clear that not mentioning Freemasonry explicitly was only so as not to limit the exclusion, not to change the stance on Freemasonry. From that source: When the Code of Canon Law was reformed, following Vatican II, the canon specifically prohibiting Catholics from joining 'Masonic societies' was revised. In the new code, promulgated in 1983 by St John Paul II, explicit mention of Freemasonry was dropped completely. The new Canon 1374 referred only to societies that 'plot against the Church'. Many took this change to indicate that Freemasonry was no longer always bad in the eyes of the Church. In fact, the reforming committee made it clear that they meant not just Freemasons, but many other organisations; the 'plot' of its secularist agenda had spread so far beyond the lodges that to keep using the umbrella term 'Masonic' would be confusing. The then Cardinal Ratzinger issued an authoritative clarification of the new law in 1983, in which he made it clear that the new canon was phrased to encourage broader interpretation and application. |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Senoufou Date: 09 Feb 18 - 04:19 AM It would have been simpler, then, merely to provide Catholics with a list of organisations they are forbidden to join. That would have made the situation perfectly clear to all. |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Nigel Parsons Date: 09 Feb 18 - 04:36 AM From: Senoufou - PM Date: 09 Feb 18 - 04:19 AM It would have been simpler, then, merely to provide Catholics with a list of organisations they are forbidden to join. That would have made the situation perfectly clear to all. Good point. But then you would need to ensure that the list did include every organisation that should be excluded, and somehow allow for the possibility that new organisations might arise who could say "we're not on the banned list". Surely it is better to make clear that organisations are excluded if they espouse certain principles. Cheers Nigel |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Will Fly Date: 09 Feb 18 - 04:53 AM My father was a senior Freemason for most of his life. During that time, the lodges of which he was a member raised many thousands of pounds for charity - Freemason's charities. So, when he needed a cataract operation and a prostate operation, off he popped to the Masonic Hospital in London as a private patient. He commented many times on how he had purchased something at discount from a fellow mason, or got some cheaper service, such as building repairs, from a mason. On the face of it, therefore, a self-help society with a lot of very silly and artificial rituals. But where does that mutual support stop and start? When he invited me to join, as I knew he would at some point, I declined. After his death a year or so ago, I went through his Masonic gear - apron, gloves, medals, belt, books, etc., etc., and junked the lot. |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Rob Naylor Date: 09 Feb 18 - 06:26 AM "Inside The Brotherhood" by Martin Short solidified my suspicions of the fraternity. It's a bit long in the tooth now, but probably still worth a read if you see a copy in a second hand shop. I'd had a run-in with them when I lived in London where a property transaction (just a garage at the rear of our flat) I'd reached agreement on was suddenly overturned, at considerable cost to myself. One of the people at the Estate Agent's was very apologetic, saying: "I know, but what can I do. Ron saw a mate at the Lodge last night who really wanted it to store stuff, so there you go...." The book gave number of provable cases where people had been discriminated against in favour of "Brothers", and a couple of very disturbing cases where people who had tried to stand up to Masons were basically ruined. You can say that "there are bad apples in every barrel"....but when the rotten apples are protected and looked after at the expense of the sound ones, you have to start suspecting that the barrel itself may be the source of the rot. It was particularly interesting that Kenneth Noye, the Brinks Mat (1986) bullion robbery fence who was also acquitted of murdering a police officer and later convicted of road rage murder didn't have his membership revoked immediately. He'd originally been proposed for membership by 2 police officers, in 1977, when he was already a known convicted criminal. His lodge brothers continued to pay his subscriptions as a "Country Member" for several years while he was in jail for Brinks Mat. He was eventually expelled by Grand Lodge in the early 1990s when they "discovered he had a criminal record".Considering he'd been all over the papers for 10 years it took them a fair while, and a lot of negative publicity, before they got around to it! |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Senoufou Date: 09 Feb 18 - 08:23 AM One has a deep suspicion of closed and secret societies. They should all be subject to independent scrutiny otherwise they're no different to the Mafia - riddled with corruption, intimidation, nepotism, perversion of justice and misappropriation of public finds. Powerful thugs in fact. The unpleasant thought that Police chiefs, Judges, men in high places, major financiers and so on may be members is frightening. |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: DMcG Date: 09 Feb 18 - 09:00 AM I stand corrected on the stance of the Roman Catholic Church position on Freemasonry (1983 declaration ). I was aware of the canon law change, but not the subsequent declaration. |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Ian Read Date: 09 Feb 18 - 09:03 AM Despite the Roman Church's dictates Austria, France and Italy were and are hotbeds of Masonic activity. Mozart was also a member and he composed a few good numbers too. |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Iains Date: 09 Feb 18 - 10:25 AM If all masons were on the square there would be no problem, but there are many instances in the public record where the square has ended up as bent as a corkscrew. An interesting Irish slant that wouldbehighly beneficial in the UK: "In the UK, masonic lodges belonging exclusively to judges and police officers have drawn allegations of corruption, tarnishing the order’s image. McCreadie (assistant to the grand secretary of the Irish Freemasons) feels it’s inevitable that abuses would arise in those circumstances and for that reason it’s forbidden for an Irish lodge to comprise only one profession. |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Kenny B (inactive) Date: 09 Feb 18 - 10:55 AM From what I have seen of golf clubs, bowling clubs and local pubs you don't have to be a mason to get a good job done well and at a reasonable price or get a job where someone has spoken privately on their behalf. There are other "Charitable" organisations where back scratching and covert influence occurs . I am sure Iains raised this subject tongue in cheek to see who he could draw out of the woodwork. The subject was aired in a reasonably balanced Guardian article recently after the Grand Lodge of England took out full page adverts complaining that they were being unfairly singled out for criticism . I had the pleasure of recently hearing an acquaintance telling the assembled company that the internationally recognised poet Robert Burns "was crap... he was a f'ing Mason" Such is life in the fast lane |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Mr Red Date: 09 Feb 18 - 11:59 AM Give ' em a break. It's a club. If you are a regular at a Folk Club and contribute when the collecting box comes round for this or that charity - don't live in glass ivory towers. PAL! They, like folkies are a mixed bag. Some well-healed and proffer their largess to charities and friends, and friends include other Masons. Because they don't brag much outside their community about their charitable works they are seen as secretive and thus sinister. What they get up to at meetings I wouldn't like to speculate but it can't be anything as childish as you hear about in Rugby Clubs. And my school (orphanage to give its technically correct term) was sponsored by Lions and Freemasons. Not sure now, the percentage of foundationers has fallen from 100% to less than 20% currently and they are the children of divorcees rather than having lost one parent. Famous sons - Gilbert Harding and Eric Idle, though EI never mentions its name and I don't in sympathy - he was sold short. He hasn't suffered materially IMNSHO. |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Donuel Date: 09 Feb 18 - 12:29 PM What's different about the Masons compared to; Kiwanis, Lyons, Rotary or taking the Possum Lodge Oath & mans prayer. is that there is progressive instruction in becoming a highly effective pubic speaker. The kind of speaking that could rise in business and politics. Each memorized speech is not only a study in ethics its completion is called a degree. If you are a 23 degree Mason you have a profound memory. Donald Trump is definitely not a Mason. DMcG tell us your secrets. |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Senoufou Date: 09 Feb 18 - 12:35 PM A Headmaster I worked for early in my career was 'one'. He was a slimy, underhand sort of a bloke and I didn't like him at all. I could just imagine him doing shady deals with the other pinny-wearers. (He had several business interests besides being Head of a primary school) But one shouldn't condemn a whole section of society by one bad apple. |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Greg F. Date: 09 Feb 18 - 12:45 PM If all masons were on the square there would be no problem Fatuous. If all humans were on the square there would be no problem. |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Donuel Date: 09 Feb 18 - 12:51 PM btw the Possum Lodge oath is 'if all else fails, play dead'. |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: DMcG Date: 09 Feb 18 - 12:56 PM DMcG tell us your secrets. I don't have any secrets associated with freemasons or any such organisation... ... but I would say that, wouldn't I? |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Iains Date: 09 Feb 18 - 12:56 PM Fatuous. A self description of you Greg? It certainly fits like a glove! |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Kenny B (inactive) Date: 09 Feb 18 - 02:09 PM Would that be a glove as worn by the "Vertically Extended Index" brothers |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Joe Offer Date: 09 Feb 18 - 02:34 PM I wouldn't make a judgment on whether Freemasons are good or bad, but they sure are interesting. One aspect of Freemasonry that fascinates me, is their architecture, throughout the world (click) and particularly in the United States (click). There's some terrific Masonic architecture in Los Angeles. The lore, rituals, and symbolism of Freemasonry are also very interesting. On top of that, they do a lot of charitable works, wherever they are. Gee, I suppose people could say the same about my Catholic Church, so I'll leave it at that. I can't quite understand what's so appealing to Freemasons about Freemasonry, just as others can't understand why I like being Catholic. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Kenny B (inactive) Date: 09 Feb 18 - 02:53 PM Different strokes for different folks ? or can I quote Johnny Cash "all gods children got a place in the choir" |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Joe Offer Date: 09 Feb 18 - 02:55 PM You betcha, Kenny. I agree. "Live and let live" seems to apply here, too. And of course, there's a good reason for Masonic architecture to be notable. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Donuel Date: 09 Feb 18 - 04:28 PM https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coral_Castle I always suspected this guy was a free mason. |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Iains Date: 09 Feb 18 - 04:41 PM http://freemasonry.london.museum/event/exhibition-freemasons-and-the-royal-society/ and???? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lodge_Mother_Kilwinning Intriguing |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Donuel Date: 09 Feb 18 - 05:07 PM DMcG that is a non answer. You are notoriously guarded. Secrets have an expiration date however. For example had it been known I was Joseph Stalin's youngest illegitimate son who was born only months after he died there would have been much controversy and hoopla in the 50's. Now no one, not even Putin, gives a hoot. If not for the cleverness of a US Army clerk I would not be here. So you got any expired secrets? |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Greg F. Date: 09 Feb 18 - 05:26 PM I always suspected this guy was a free mason. Yeah, well what about the SLAVE Masons?? |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Steve Shaw Date: 09 Feb 18 - 05:28 PM Fine, Joe, but you might excuse us for thinking, in connection with the Catholic Church and the Freemasons, that "live and let live" could mean " don't look TOO closely at what goes on in our ranks..."
-Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Joe Offer Date: 09 Feb 18 - 07:21 PM Steve, if my neighbor's dog shits in my living room, I don't rub my dog's nose in it, just because he's a dog.... And I do not deny the guilt of the neighbor's dog. But we're talking about freemasonry here, not dogshit or Catholicism. Keep your bigotry in control. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Steve Shaw Date: 09 Feb 18 - 07:50 PM To be honest, I really am a live-and-let-live bloke. But there is a caveat. Just don't ask me to live and let live if there's ever been a suspicion of wrongdoing in your organisation. To ask me that is to arouse suspicions that you have something to hide. Another thing. Quite often, ardent believers, enacting the precise opposite of live-and-let-live behaviour, are only too keen to propagate their unsupportable beliefs to other people, including children above all, a practice often dressed in rather benign terms. You sometimes even have the temerity to dress up the proselytising as religious "education." I'll live-and-let-live as far as your beliefs are concerned as long as you undertake to keep them to yourself and allow other people, all too vulnerable to your proselytising, including children especially, to live and let live. |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Steve Shaw Date: 09 Feb 18 - 07:55 PM And I think we've had more than enough of your lame resort to calling people who are not overly keen on your religion "bigots," Joe. I imagine you three or four hundred years ago, invoking the heresy laws and having us conveniently removed by having us, say, burned at the stake. |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Donuel Date: 09 Feb 18 - 08:02 PM Who are the slave masons? the Jews under Pharaoh's rule? War prisoners under Nazi rule? There is another crime against children committed by priests no one discusses. A priest advising women to stay in physical abusing marriages that jeopardize women and children's lives. If marriage is so sacred why don't priests do it. |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Steve Shaw Date: 09 Feb 18 - 08:39 PM Joe's in delete mode. Just sayin'. Ask him why, guys! |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: DMcG Date: 10 Feb 18 - 02:33 AM DMcG that is a non answer. You are notoriously guarded. Secrets have an expiration date however... So you got any expired secrets? I genuinely do. In 1980-3 I ran a classified project, funded by two parts of the military who could not stand each other. Then out of the blue the project was declassified and on the same day one of them published academic papers about it. It was pretty clear the classification had really been about preventing the one side from publishing until the other was all ready to go. |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Nigel Parsons Date: 10 Feb 18 - 05:44 PM First person: "Do you believe in Freemasonry?" Second person: "Yes." First person: "Oh good, I've got a wall I want built!" |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Kenny B (inactive) Date: 10 Feb 18 - 06:53 PM Thank goodness for a sense of humour |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Steve Shaw Date: 10 Feb 18 - 07:52 PM I'll try again, a little less specifically this time (PM me if that confuses you). "Live and let live" (as applied to any organisation you care to think of) COULD mean "don't look too closely, just in case you see something you don't like..." |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Donuel Date: 10 Feb 18 - 10:46 PM Actual conspiracies require some secrecy. I knew a Dentist who had 3 patients who expired in his office. It was rumored he wanted to join the Masons in order to provide some networking for defensive purposes, or at least that's the way I saw it. I knew nothing about the matter afterwards. Its not exactly an Agatha Christie episode but maybe you think this is bad. The children hospitals are good, but single payer would be better. |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Joe Offer Date: 10 Feb 18 - 11:32 PM What Mr. Shaw is saying, is that since he is without sin, he is allowed to cast stones. And even when others freely and honestly admit their shortcomings, Mr. Shaw believes he is entitled to rub their noses in it. No doubt, there are many disreputable things that Freemasons and other groups have done through the centuries. But judging the group by acts of individuals, is what most people call Bigotry. I know it's complicated and time-consuming to have to avoid judging all members of a group as one, but it's what you have to do if you don't want to be considered a bigot. Now, give us some facts and stop the broad-brush judgmentalism, Mr. Shaw. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Mr Red Date: 11 Feb 18 - 04:19 AM How many Freemasons does it take to change a lightbulb? "Shhhhhhhh"! I'll get my coat and bare one breast.............. |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Senoufou Date: 11 Feb 18 - 04:31 AM My great-uncle who was 'one' was called Temple. I always thought it a very strange name. Of all his eight brothers and sisters (I have a sepia photo of them) he was the one that became rich. He emigrated to Australia and ended up with an enormous amount of land and raised sheep. Do you suppose there were/are Freemasons in Australia? And if so, did they help him? |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Senoufou Date: 11 Feb 18 - 04:34 AM Hahaha Mr Red! And don't forget to roll up one trouser leg! |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Iains Date: 11 Feb 18 - 06:05 AM Quite an old report. The fact that such a report was compiled highlights a concern. Those that did not respond highlights even more of a concern. https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm199899/cmselect/cmhaff/467/46703.htm |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Kenny B (inactive) Date: 11 Feb 18 - 06:08 AM Senoufou Maybe your great uncle was in the right place at the right time or had the get up and go to get up and go .... you'll never know ... its secret BTW which trouser leg is rolled up? (Smiley) |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: DMcG Date: 11 Feb 18 - 06:14 AM d go to get up and go .... you'll never know ... its secret BTW which trouser leg is rolled up? (Smiley) Must be. Otherwise we would know if it was a sinister organisation. |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Senoufou Date: 11 Feb 18 - 06:19 AM I imagine my great-grandfather was 'one' as well. And perhaps that's why he called his eldest son Temple (I understand that the Freemasons refer back to the building of the temple in Jerusalem, hence all the compasses and square stuff.) Apparently, according to my father, his Uncle Temple was indeed quite an enterprising gent. |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Kenny B (inactive) Date: 11 Feb 18 - 07:56 AM From: Iains - PM Date: 11 Feb 18 - 06:05 AM Quite an old report. The fact that such a report was compiled highlights a concern. Those that did not respond highlights even more of a concern. What are your concerns Iains ? eg How many were women? How many thought the survey a waste of money and THEIR time, how many would rather be playing golf? Attending Legal Dinners? Arent the majority of the Judges honest? How many non compulsory surveys do you complete? Life is hard (smiley) |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Steve Shaw Date: 11 Feb 18 - 08:31 AM Why don't you stop pretending, Joe, and just reinstate those perfectly civil posts that you deleted, accompanied by a rather rude PM to me? You are abusing your position as a mod here in having your say, as unpleasant as you can make it, whilst hovering over your delete button. I have not said anything bigoted, either in the deleted posts or in what's still here. Simply saying that live and let live/let sleeping dogs lie/laissez faire is a suspect plea is not bigoted. It's saying that it's the wrong call. If the Masons, the churches, Hollywood, the big charities or any other organisation are now having their dirty linen aired, it isn't because they've spontaneously thrown their hands in the air suddenly admitting everything. It's because they've been outed, largely by victims. The very nature of cover-ups is that we don't know that they're going on, and we have every right to be suspicious, going from the past records of these organisations. We will only know that these setups are finally clean after a long period of not hearing about any more abuses. That's your institution's fault, not ours, and to say so is not bigotry, not by a country mile. |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Donuel Date: 11 Feb 18 - 09:00 AM Steve you drink Atheist light compared to others who pound down 100 proof antigod straight up. I'm more of an Atheist smoothie guy. Remember you are only a bigot in Joe's dark matter world. |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Kenny B (inactive) Date: 11 Feb 18 - 09:09 AM If anyone thinks views here are tainted have a look at the "conversation" here i dont make any comment but shake my head Freemasonary according to Lepanto |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Iains Date: 11 Feb 18 - 09:35 AM "What are your concerns Iains ? eg How many were women? How many thought the survey a waste of money and THEIR time, how many would rather be playing golf? Attending Legal Dinners? Arent the majority of the Judges honest? How many non compulsory surveys do you complete?" Kenny B. Is talking complete shit a speciality of yours? TRY reading the link and consider the origin of the report. |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Steve Shaw Date: 11 Feb 18 - 09:36 AM I've gone to considerable lengths in a number of posts on several threads to say that my Catholic upbringing was generally benign, that most of the priests who taught me (as well as the nuns and priests with whom I later worked in teaching) were good-hearted people who had the kids' best interests at heart and that, during decades of close-up exposure to Catholicism, I didn't come across a single incidence of sexual abuse. There are several atheist posters on this forum who take a far less balanced view. To be critical is not to be bigoted. To be accused of bigotry whenever religion comes up (not generally brought up first by me, I hasten to add) is to be accused of mean-spirited opportunism. It seems to me that someone accusing a non-bigot of bigotry is being defensive and, ironically, quite possibly bigoted themselves. We could usefully ban the bloody word from this forum. |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Kenny B (inactive) Date: 11 Feb 18 - 10:06 AM Iains you havnt produced an answer re concerns, the word "shit" totally demeans your reply ... different people take different thing from reports , pry tell us what you take from it without resorting to schoolboy abuse |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Steve Shaw Date: 11 Feb 18 - 10:09 AM He's having a bad day again, Kenny. See Brexit thread. Then ignore. |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Kenny B (inactive) Date: 11 Feb 18 - 11:02 AM I'm not a golfer but I think its known as "par for the course" on here when people run out of reasoned argument, Its the only form of abuse that hasn't been demonised by the PC groupies I remember Alex Salmond discussing a report on Brexit with Boris Johnston on Tele and eventually asking him had he actually read it And understood it .... hi didnt get a positive answer just the usual smirk Maybe Iains is constipated and that's the only way he can get the "s" uknow what out. (Smiley) |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Iains Date: 11 Feb 18 - 11:08 AM Kenny B I thought I made my take on it clear when I said no man can serve two masters. Parliament obviously shered my concerns, hence the last link I provided. How that concern was finally resolved I do not know. I presume it was a political football and kicked into the long grass until such time as renewed "scandal" forces the issue back into the spotlight. Members of the 3 arms of government belonging to a secretive organisation would raise concerns for any rational person I would have thought, but perhaps sheople are in the ascendancy. Shaw you are a fool. One day you will wise up. |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Kenny B (inactive) Date: 11 Feb 18 - 11:36 AM I dont believe that Freemasonry has any more influence on what goes on in either politics or the judiciary in this country than the Bullingdon Club or its equivalents in sport or other pastimes. Money talks and the media is it voice in public Serving two master is a cliché, we all do a balancing act to get by why should individual Freemasons be any different to anyone else. I wonder what hat i'll wear today (Smiley) |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Greg F. Date: 11 Feb 18 - 11:40 AM But judging the group by acts of individuals, is what most people call Bigotry. So I'm a bigot, Joe, for judging the Ku Klux Klan? Or the Aryan Brotherhood? ACT For America? The Family Research Council? The League of the South? Interesting. |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Joe Offer Date: 11 Feb 18 - 11:45 AM Guess you'll have to live with the fact that some people think you're a bigot, Shaw. I don't imagine you'll ever come to an understanding of this flaw in yourself. Factual criticism of misdeeds within an organization is useful and necessary. When it becomes an incessant diatribe against an entire group, it becomes bigotry. Most people are ordinary. They do not do horrible (or heroic) deeds on a regular basis, and they should be allowed to live their lives without harassment or condemnation for that, despite what self-righteous ideologues may think of them. I do think "live and let live" applies very well here. So, what is there of a factual nature that you have to say about Freemasons, Mr. Shaw? -Joe Offer- And Mr. Greg, there are serious flaws in your logic. Obviously, if the organization itself exists for the purpose of wrongdoing, that's another matter. Your Ku Kluxers fall into that category. The Catholic Church and the Freemasons do not - nor does the Republican Party. |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Greg F. Date: 11 Feb 18 - 12:08 PM if the organization itself exists for the purpose of wrongdoing, that's another matter. But that's not what you said, Joe: But judging the group by acts of individuals, is what most people call Bigotry. Also, since the group(s) in question are indeed made up of individuals- or they wouldn't exist-..... on whose actions should they be juged again? |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Donuel Date: 11 Feb 18 - 12:22 PM Steve, According to my wife I am a bigot. If you raise the specter of a nefarious act by an individual it is often confused with an indictment of a race. (the dark matter reference applies to stuff with no interaction or collision) Kenny B, its true the Knights Templar felt anti Catholic after their massacre in the same way Winston Churchill felt anti German after the blitz. |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Kenny B (inactive) Date: 11 Feb 18 - 01:27 PM Donuel ....Isn't it amazing what you find out when you start digging using the big eye "google" the all seeing one .... well nearly |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Steve Shaw Date: 11 Feb 18 - 02:26 PM "Guess you'll have to live with the fact that some people think you're a bigot, Shaw" Well why don't you set up a poll, Offer, and we'll see how many, shall we? Alternatively, why don't you go and have a nice lie down? |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Donuel Date: 11 Feb 18 - 02:29 PM In the days before google, my dad said who ever finds a way to find everything on the internet will rule the world. Google is like Family Feud 'Survey says...' Meanwhile #1 search results can be bought with cash. |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Kenny B (inactive) Date: 11 Feb 18 - 02:44 PM Donuel ?? ??????? ?????? |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Greg F. Date: 12 Feb 18 - 09:57 AM The Catholic Church and the Freemasons do not - nor does the Republican Party. Joe, Joe, you've gone over to the dark side. You're engaging in the same tactics as our Mister Bilbo- excuse me, Bobad - who labels anyone who criticizes the Israeli regime as "anti-semitic", i.e. anyone who criticizes the actions of the Catholic Church hierarchy is a "bigot". As for ther Republican Party, you must have missed the polls that indicate the number of Republican voters who still enthusiastically support President Racist Misogynist Shithole Clusterfuck and the silence of 99.9% ofRepublican Congressmen & women ditto. As currently constituted, its more than fair to characterize the Party as existing for the purpose of wrongdoing. |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: beardedbruce Date: 12 Feb 18 - 11:31 AM Not as old as YOU calling Black Democrats "Dumb Ni**ers" |
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Subject: BS: So, About Freemasonry From: Joe Offer Date: 12 Feb 18 - 02:06 PM I spent a long time typing this message. When I submitted it, I got this message: Sorry, this thread (click) is closed. Here is the text of your post: Well, I can't say I disagree with the closure because there were certain individuals who were wigging out in the thread; but I'll be damned if I'll forfeit all the hard work and time I expended on my post, so here it is. OK, logic lesson. Gref_F questioningly quotes Joe Offer: But judging the group by acts of individuals, is what most people call Bigotry. Greg Responds: So I'm a bigot, Joe, for judging the Ku Klux Klan? Or the Aryan Brotherhood? ACT For America? The Family Research Council? The League of the South? In that case, what we judge is the corporate act of the group, and the acts and purposes of these groups are abhorrent. Two different things. We judge individuals by their individual actions, and we judge groups by their corporate actions. And although we may disagree with the groups that individuals associate with, we must assess individuals individually. In addition, if we wish to accomplish anything in this world, we will have to form alliances with people we do not completely agree with. And to do this, we must treat those individuals with respect, despite our differences. In time, we might even learn to appreciate those differences and learn from them. I don't think I could ever agree completely with Freemasons, but there are so many things I like about them. One of the National Treasure movies was set in the context of Freemasonry, and it gave a good taste of the fascinating lore and history and mythology of Freemasonry. I've mentioned the architecture above. Several times, I've enjoyed visiting the George Washington Masonic Memorial in Alexandria, Virginia. It attempts to be a replica of the lighthouse at Alexandria, Egypt - one of the Seven Wonders of the World. Inside is a museum of Masonic artifacts, all very interesting. The memorial is not only a lighthouse replica, it's an obelisk, a important emblem of Freemasonry - as is the Washington Memorial across the Potomac in Washington DC. I suppose one could say that much of the lore of Freemasonry is fakelore; but it has been part of Freemasonry for so long that I think it also deserves to be considered as folklore. One could also say that the underpinnings of Freemasonry are myth. But hey, I belong to a religion that has its own myth, so I don't have any problem with that. I am not an absolutist like the born-again Christians and what I call born-again atheists*, so I feel no obligation to view myth as actual or putative absolute truth. I can appreciate myth for what it is - myth, a story or system of stories meant to convey a deeper truth. So, yeah, I'm not likely to join the Freemasons - but I certainly respect them. -Joe- *Note that what I call "born-again" Christians and atheists, is not a term I would apply to all Christians and atheists. Some, maybe most, are intelligent, insightful, and open-minded. Many are able to acknowledge and criticize and reject and even poke fun at the shortcomings of the groups they come from. There's something good about coming from roots that are not perfect. It gives us humility and tolerance. Perfectionists tend to be boring and tediously critical, but those who rise from the muck are the salt of the earth. Joe, you could have just added your remarks to this otherwise closed thread without starting a new one, we know you know how to do this stuff still. Your remarks were moved here to keep the context but to stop the running battle. --mudelf |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Joe Offer Date: 13 Feb 18 - 03:33 AM Joe, you could have just added your remarks to this otherwise closed thread without starting a new one, we know you know how to do this stuff still. Your remarks were moved here to keep the context but to stop the running battle. --mudelf
I have found that if moderators close a thread, that's usually enough. If people start a continuation thread on the subject, the new thread is usually much more civil. So, that's why I started a new thread. I wasn't done talking on the subject, and I was sure I was going to be able to convince Steve Shaw and Greg_F to change their evil ways since I think they're basically good people who just need to "see the light." I had intended to start the new thread with a civil comment to attempt to change the tone of the discussion, and I think my comment was quite civil. I didn't even call Steve Shaw a bigot in it.... -Joe Offer- The threads were merged because the same combatants from the first thread followed Joe to the second one. Rather than have two closed threads as objects of consideration for trolling, the coherent remark was moved and the rest of the nastiness was deleted. --mudelf |
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