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Freemasonry. Is it good or bad?
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Will Fly Date: 09 Feb 18 - 04:53 AM My father was a senior Freemason for most of his life. During that time, the lodges of which he was a member raised many thousands of pounds for charity - Freemason's charities. So, when he needed a cataract operation and a prostate operation, off he popped to the Masonic Hospital in London as a private patient. He commented many times on how he had purchased something at discount from a fellow mason, or got some cheaper service, such as building repairs, from a mason. On the face of it, therefore, a self-help society with a lot of very silly and artificial rituals. But where does that mutual support stop and start? When he invited me to join, as I knew he would at some point, I declined. After his death a year or so ago, I went through his Masonic gear - apron, gloves, medals, belt, books, etc., etc., and junked the lot. |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Rob Naylor Date: 09 Feb 18 - 06:26 AM "Inside The Brotherhood" by Martin Short solidified my suspicions of the fraternity. It's a bit long in the tooth now, but probably still worth a read if you see a copy in a second hand shop. I'd had a run-in with them when I lived in London where a property transaction (just a garage at the rear of our flat) I'd reached agreement on was suddenly overturned, at considerable cost to myself. One of the people at the Estate Agent's was very apologetic, saying: "I know, but what can I do. Ron saw a mate at the Lodge last night who really wanted it to store stuff, so there you go...." The book gave number of provable cases where people had been discriminated against in favour of "Brothers", and a couple of very disturbing cases where people who had tried to stand up to Masons were basically ruined. You can say that "there are bad apples in every barrel"....but when the rotten apples are protected and looked after at the expense of the sound ones, you have to start suspecting that the barrel itself may be the source of the rot. It was particularly interesting that Kenneth Noye, the Brinks Mat (1986) bullion robbery fence who was also acquitted of murdering a police officer and later convicted of road rage murder didn't have his membership revoked immediately. He'd originally been proposed for membership by 2 police officers, in 1977, when he was already a known convicted criminal. His lodge brothers continued to pay his subscriptions as a "Country Member" for several years while he was in jail for Brinks Mat. He was eventually expelled by Grand Lodge in the early 1990s when they "discovered he had a criminal record".Considering he'd been all over the papers for 10 years it took them a fair while, and a lot of negative publicity, before they got around to it! |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Senoufou Date: 09 Feb 18 - 08:23 AM One has a deep suspicion of closed and secret societies. They should all be subject to independent scrutiny otherwise they're no different to the Mafia - riddled with corruption, intimidation, nepotism, perversion of justice and misappropriation of public finds. Powerful thugs in fact. The unpleasant thought that Police chiefs, Judges, men in high places, major financiers and so on may be members is frightening. |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: DMcG Date: 09 Feb 18 - 09:00 AM I stand corrected on the stance of the Roman Catholic Church position on Freemasonry (1983 declaration ). I was aware of the canon law change, but not the subsequent declaration. |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Ian Read Date: 09 Feb 18 - 09:03 AM Despite the Roman Church's dictates Austria, France and Italy were and are hotbeds of Masonic activity. Mozart was also a member and he composed a few good numbers too. |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Iains Date: 09 Feb 18 - 10:25 AM If all masons were on the square there would be no problem, but there are many instances in the public record where the square has ended up as bent as a corkscrew. An interesting Irish slant that wouldbehighly beneficial in the UK: "In the UK, masonic lodges belonging exclusively to judges and police officers have drawn allegations of corruption, tarnishing the order’s image. McCreadie (assistant to the grand secretary of the Irish Freemasons) feels it’s inevitable that abuses would arise in those circumstances and for that reason it’s forbidden for an Irish lodge to comprise only one profession. |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Kenny B (inactive) Date: 09 Feb 18 - 10:55 AM From what I have seen of golf clubs, bowling clubs and local pubs you don't have to be a mason to get a good job done well and at a reasonable price or get a job where someone has spoken privately on their behalf. There are other "Charitable" organisations where back scratching and covert influence occurs . I am sure Iains raised this subject tongue in cheek to see who he could draw out of the woodwork. The subject was aired in a reasonably balanced Guardian article recently after the Grand Lodge of England took out full page adverts complaining that they were being unfairly singled out for criticism . I had the pleasure of recently hearing an acquaintance telling the assembled company that the internationally recognised poet Robert Burns "was crap... he was a f'ing Mason" Such is life in the fast lane |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Mr Red Date: 09 Feb 18 - 11:59 AM Give ' em a break. It's a club. If you are a regular at a Folk Club and contribute when the collecting box comes round for this or that charity - don't live in glass ivory towers. PAL! They, like folkies are a mixed bag. Some well-healed and proffer their largess to charities and friends, and friends include other Masons. Because they don't brag much outside their community about their charitable works they are seen as secretive and thus sinister. What they get up to at meetings I wouldn't like to speculate but it can't be anything as childish as you hear about in Rugby Clubs. And my school (orphanage to give its technically correct term) was sponsored by Lions and Freemasons. Not sure now, the percentage of foundationers has fallen from 100% to less than 20% currently and they are the children of divorcees rather than having lost one parent. Famous sons - Gilbert Harding and Eric Idle, though EI never mentions its name and I don't in sympathy - he was sold short. He hasn't suffered materially IMNSHO. |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Donuel Date: 09 Feb 18 - 12:29 PM What's different about the Masons compared to; Kiwanis, Lyons, Rotary or taking the Possum Lodge Oath & mans prayer. is that there is progressive instruction in becoming a highly effective pubic speaker. The kind of speaking that could rise in business and politics. Each memorized speech is not only a study in ethics its completion is called a degree. If you are a 23 degree Mason you have a profound memory. Donald Trump is definitely not a Mason. DMcG tell us your secrets. |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Senoufou Date: 09 Feb 18 - 12:35 PM A Headmaster I worked for early in my career was 'one'. He was a slimy, underhand sort of a bloke and I didn't like him at all. I could just imagine him doing shady deals with the other pinny-wearers. (He had several business interests besides being Head of a primary school) But one shouldn't condemn a whole section of society by one bad apple. |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Greg F. Date: 09 Feb 18 - 12:45 PM If all masons were on the square there would be no problem Fatuous. If all humans were on the square there would be no problem. |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Donuel Date: 09 Feb 18 - 12:51 PM btw the Possum Lodge oath is 'if all else fails, play dead'. |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: DMcG Date: 09 Feb 18 - 12:56 PM DMcG tell us your secrets. I don't have any secrets associated with freemasons or any such organisation... ... but I would say that, wouldn't I? |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Iains Date: 09 Feb 18 - 12:56 PM Fatuous. A self description of you Greg? It certainly fits like a glove! |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Kenny B (inactive) Date: 09 Feb 18 - 02:09 PM Would that be a glove as worn by the "Vertically Extended Index" brothers |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Joe Offer Date: 09 Feb 18 - 02:34 PM I wouldn't make a judgment on whether Freemasons are good or bad, but they sure are interesting. One aspect of Freemasonry that fascinates me, is their architecture, throughout the world (click) and particularly in the United States (click). There's some terrific Masonic architecture in Los Angeles. The lore, rituals, and symbolism of Freemasonry are also very interesting. On top of that, they do a lot of charitable works, wherever they are. Gee, I suppose people could say the same about my Catholic Church, so I'll leave it at that. I can't quite understand what's so appealing to Freemasons about Freemasonry, just as others can't understand why I like being Catholic. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Kenny B (inactive) Date: 09 Feb 18 - 02:53 PM Different strokes for different folks ? or can I quote Johnny Cash "all gods children got a place in the choir" |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Joe Offer Date: 09 Feb 18 - 02:55 PM You betcha, Kenny. I agree. "Live and let live" seems to apply here, too. And of course, there's a good reason for Masonic architecture to be notable. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Donuel Date: 09 Feb 18 - 04:28 PM https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coral_Castle I always suspected this guy was a free mason. |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Iains Date: 09 Feb 18 - 04:41 PM http://freemasonry.london.museum/event/exhibition-freemasons-and-the-royal-society/ and???? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lodge_Mother_Kilwinning Intriguing |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Donuel Date: 09 Feb 18 - 05:07 PM DMcG that is a non answer. You are notoriously guarded. Secrets have an expiration date however. For example had it been known I was Joseph Stalin's youngest illegitimate son who was born only months after he died there would have been much controversy and hoopla in the 50's. Now no one, not even Putin, gives a hoot. If not for the cleverness of a US Army clerk I would not be here. So you got any expired secrets? |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Greg F. Date: 09 Feb 18 - 05:26 PM I always suspected this guy was a free mason. Yeah, well what about the SLAVE Masons?? |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Steve Shaw Date: 09 Feb 18 - 05:28 PM Fine, Joe, but you might excuse us for thinking, in connection with the Catholic Church and the Freemasons, that "live and let live" could mean " don't look TOO closely at what goes on in our ranks..."
-Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Joe Offer Date: 09 Feb 18 - 07:21 PM Steve, if my neighbor's dog shits in my living room, I don't rub my dog's nose in it, just because he's a dog.... And I do not deny the guilt of the neighbor's dog. But we're talking about freemasonry here, not dogshit or Catholicism. Keep your bigotry in control. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Steve Shaw Date: 09 Feb 18 - 07:50 PM To be honest, I really am a live-and-let-live bloke. But there is a caveat. Just don't ask me to live and let live if there's ever been a suspicion of wrongdoing in your organisation. To ask me that is to arouse suspicions that you have something to hide. Another thing. Quite often, ardent believers, enacting the precise opposite of live-and-let-live behaviour, are only too keen to propagate their unsupportable beliefs to other people, including children above all, a practice often dressed in rather benign terms. You sometimes even have the temerity to dress up the proselytising as religious "education." I'll live-and-let-live as far as your beliefs are concerned as long as you undertake to keep them to yourself and allow other people, all too vulnerable to your proselytising, including children especially, to live and let live. |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Steve Shaw Date: 09 Feb 18 - 07:55 PM And I think we've had more than enough of your lame resort to calling people who are not overly keen on your religion "bigots," Joe. I imagine you three or four hundred years ago, invoking the heresy laws and having us conveniently removed by having us, say, burned at the stake. |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Donuel Date: 09 Feb 18 - 08:02 PM Who are the slave masons? the Jews under Pharaoh's rule? War prisoners under Nazi rule? There is another crime against children committed by priests no one discusses. A priest advising women to stay in physical abusing marriages that jeopardize women and children's lives. If marriage is so sacred why don't priests do it. |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Steve Shaw Date: 09 Feb 18 - 08:39 PM Joe's in delete mode. Just sayin'. Ask him why, guys! |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: DMcG Date: 10 Feb 18 - 02:33 AM DMcG that is a non answer. You are notoriously guarded. Secrets have an expiration date however... So you got any expired secrets? I genuinely do. In 1980-3 I ran a classified project, funded by two parts of the military who could not stand each other. Then out of the blue the project was declassified and on the same day one of them published academic papers about it. It was pretty clear the classification had really been about preventing the one side from publishing until the other was all ready to go. |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Nigel Parsons Date: 10 Feb 18 - 05:44 PM First person: "Do you believe in Freemasonry?" Second person: "Yes." First person: "Oh good, I've got a wall I want built!" |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Kenny B (inactive) Date: 10 Feb 18 - 06:53 PM Thank goodness for a sense of humour |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Steve Shaw Date: 10 Feb 18 - 07:52 PM I'll try again, a little less specifically this time (PM me if that confuses you). "Live and let live" (as applied to any organisation you care to think of) COULD mean "don't look too closely, just in case you see something you don't like..." |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Donuel Date: 10 Feb 18 - 10:46 PM Actual conspiracies require some secrecy. I knew a Dentist who had 3 patients who expired in his office. It was rumored he wanted to join the Masons in order to provide some networking for defensive purposes, or at least that's the way I saw it. I knew nothing about the matter afterwards. Its not exactly an Agatha Christie episode but maybe you think this is bad. The children hospitals are good, but single payer would be better. |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Joe Offer Date: 10 Feb 18 - 11:32 PM What Mr. Shaw is saying, is that since he is without sin, he is allowed to cast stones. And even when others freely and honestly admit their shortcomings, Mr. Shaw believes he is entitled to rub their noses in it. No doubt, there are many disreputable things that Freemasons and other groups have done through the centuries. But judging the group by acts of individuals, is what most people call Bigotry. I know it's complicated and time-consuming to have to avoid judging all members of a group as one, but it's what you have to do if you don't want to be considered a bigot. Now, give us some facts and stop the broad-brush judgmentalism, Mr. Shaw. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Mr Red Date: 11 Feb 18 - 04:19 AM How many Freemasons does it take to change a lightbulb? "Shhhhhhhh"! I'll get my coat and bare one breast.............. |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Senoufou Date: 11 Feb 18 - 04:31 AM My great-uncle who was 'one' was called Temple. I always thought it a very strange name. Of all his eight brothers and sisters (I have a sepia photo of them) he was the one that became rich. He emigrated to Australia and ended up with an enormous amount of land and raised sheep. Do you suppose there were/are Freemasons in Australia? And if so, did they help him? |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Senoufou Date: 11 Feb 18 - 04:34 AM Hahaha Mr Red! And don't forget to roll up one trouser leg! |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Iains Date: 11 Feb 18 - 06:05 AM Quite an old report. The fact that such a report was compiled highlights a concern. Those that did not respond highlights even more of a concern. https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm199899/cmselect/cmhaff/467/46703.htm |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Kenny B (inactive) Date: 11 Feb 18 - 06:08 AM Senoufou Maybe your great uncle was in the right place at the right time or had the get up and go to get up and go .... you'll never know ... its secret BTW which trouser leg is rolled up? (Smiley) |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: DMcG Date: 11 Feb 18 - 06:14 AM d go to get up and go .... you'll never know ... its secret BTW which trouser leg is rolled up? (Smiley) Must be. Otherwise we would know if it was a sinister organisation. |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Senoufou Date: 11 Feb 18 - 06:19 AM I imagine my great-grandfather was 'one' as well. And perhaps that's why he called his eldest son Temple (I understand that the Freemasons refer back to the building of the temple in Jerusalem, hence all the compasses and square stuff.) Apparently, according to my father, his Uncle Temple was indeed quite an enterprising gent. |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Kenny B (inactive) Date: 11 Feb 18 - 07:56 AM From: Iains - PM Date: 11 Feb 18 - 06:05 AM Quite an old report. The fact that such a report was compiled highlights a concern. Those that did not respond highlights even more of a concern. What are your concerns Iains ? eg How many were women? How many thought the survey a waste of money and THEIR time, how many would rather be playing golf? Attending Legal Dinners? Arent the majority of the Judges honest? How many non compulsory surveys do you complete? Life is hard (smiley) |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Steve Shaw Date: 11 Feb 18 - 08:31 AM Why don't you stop pretending, Joe, and just reinstate those perfectly civil posts that you deleted, accompanied by a rather rude PM to me? You are abusing your position as a mod here in having your say, as unpleasant as you can make it, whilst hovering over your delete button. I have not said anything bigoted, either in the deleted posts or in what's still here. Simply saying that live and let live/let sleeping dogs lie/laissez faire is a suspect plea is not bigoted. It's saying that it's the wrong call. If the Masons, the churches, Hollywood, the big charities or any other organisation are now having their dirty linen aired, it isn't because they've spontaneously thrown their hands in the air suddenly admitting everything. It's because they've been outed, largely by victims. The very nature of cover-ups is that we don't know that they're going on, and we have every right to be suspicious, going from the past records of these organisations. We will only know that these setups are finally clean after a long period of not hearing about any more abuses. That's your institution's fault, not ours, and to say so is not bigotry, not by a country mile. |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Donuel Date: 11 Feb 18 - 09:00 AM Steve you drink Atheist light compared to others who pound down 100 proof antigod straight up. I'm more of an Atheist smoothie guy. Remember you are only a bigot in Joe's dark matter world. |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Kenny B (inactive) Date: 11 Feb 18 - 09:09 AM If anyone thinks views here are tainted have a look at the "conversation" here i dont make any comment but shake my head Freemasonary according to Lepanto |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Iains Date: 11 Feb 18 - 09:35 AM "What are your concerns Iains ? eg How many were women? How many thought the survey a waste of money and THEIR time, how many would rather be playing golf? Attending Legal Dinners? Arent the majority of the Judges honest? How many non compulsory surveys do you complete?" Kenny B. Is talking complete shit a speciality of yours? TRY reading the link and consider the origin of the report. |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Steve Shaw Date: 11 Feb 18 - 09:36 AM I've gone to considerable lengths in a number of posts on several threads to say that my Catholic upbringing was generally benign, that most of the priests who taught me (as well as the nuns and priests with whom I later worked in teaching) were good-hearted people who had the kids' best interests at heart and that, during decades of close-up exposure to Catholicism, I didn't come across a single incidence of sexual abuse. There are several atheist posters on this forum who take a far less balanced view. To be critical is not to be bigoted. To be accused of bigotry whenever religion comes up (not generally brought up first by me, I hasten to add) is to be accused of mean-spirited opportunism. It seems to me that someone accusing a non-bigot of bigotry is being defensive and, ironically, quite possibly bigoted themselves. We could usefully ban the bloody word from this forum. |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Kenny B (inactive) Date: 11 Feb 18 - 10:06 AM Iains you havnt produced an answer re concerns, the word "shit" totally demeans your reply ... different people take different thing from reports , pry tell us what you take from it without resorting to schoolboy abuse |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Steve Shaw Date: 11 Feb 18 - 10:09 AM He's having a bad day again, Kenny. See Brexit thread. Then ignore. |
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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad? From: Kenny B (inactive) Date: 11 Feb 18 - 11:02 AM I'm not a golfer but I think its known as "par for the course" on here when people run out of reasoned argument, Its the only form of abuse that hasn't been demonised by the PC groupies I remember Alex Salmond discussing a report on Brexit with Boris Johnston on Tele and eventually asking him had he actually read it And understood it .... hi didnt get a positive answer just the usual smirk Maybe Iains is constipated and that's the only way he can get the "s" uknow what out. (Smiley) |
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