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BS: battery storage. Hype or the future?

Iains 13 Feb 18 - 03:18 PM
Joe Offer 13 Feb 18 - 03:48 PM
Kenny B 13 Feb 18 - 03:55 PM
Bruce D 13 Feb 18 - 04:49 PM
Iains 13 Feb 18 - 05:34 PM
robomatic 13 Feb 18 - 05:50 PM
Rapparee 13 Feb 18 - 08:44 PM
Mr Red 14 Feb 18 - 06:17 AM
Iains 14 Feb 18 - 09:04 AM
Iains 14 Feb 18 - 02:12 PM

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Subject: BS: battery storage. Hype or ?
From: Iains
Date: 13 Feb 18 - 03:18 PM

Battery storage banks are being proposed as a way of meeting temporary
high demand. There are very few ways of storing electricity and they are not efficient.
storage

https://oilprice.com/Alternative-Energy/Renewable-Energy/Grid-Batteries-Will-Hurt-Wholesale-Power-Generators.html

I repeat, it is as yet merely a proposal. It could be a game changer if it gets wings. We shall see.


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Subject: RE: BS: battery storage. Hype or the future?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Feb 18 - 03:48 PM

Temporary high demand has been a problem for electric power producers since the days of Edison. There hasn't been a way to store excess power, so the excess power is simply wasted. When there is high demand, utility companies buy extra power from contract producers who often use low-efficiency, high-pollution equipment. I heard of one firm in California that used a generator powered by a jet engine.

Electric cars use technology that stores excess power produced by braking or downhill driving and such. So, storage techology is advancing, and there may be a day when batteries (or something) can serve as a buffer for temporary high demand.
It's an interesting challenge.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: battery storage. Hype or the future?
From: Kenny B
Date: 13 Feb 18 - 03:55 PM

Cant we build more dams or as in Scotland wind farms or tidal generators
Wwould Washington DC be an great place foer a wind farm (TiC)


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Subject: RE: BS: battery storage. Hype or the future?
From: Bruce D
Date: 13 Feb 18 - 04:49 PM

The idea of large scale battery systems to back up Solar and Wind power is all based on hype, for example the battery system recently installed in South Australia can supply enought energy to run South Australia for less than 2 minutes,

The advance battery systems have a limit number of times that they can be cycled (ie 500 times) before they require to be replaced, which will then leave us with a large toxic waste problem,

Currently according to power system engineers I have spoken to to get 100 MW supply from wind turbines you need to install at least 400 MW of capacity at a number of locations, and that hoping for every thing to work correctly and the wind is blowing at the right operating speed and direction. The life span estimate of wind turbines is between 15 to 20 years with many failing before that. according to some power industry sources nearly 1/3 of the wind turbines installed in the US are barely functioning, Where as a standard power station running on coal can run for 50 to 60 years if maintained correctly, neulear have similar life cycle .


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Subject: RE: BS: battery storage. Hype or the future?
From: Iains
Date: 13 Feb 18 - 05:34 PM

For the UK the energy business has been transformed in recent years and few realise the extent to which renewables contribute.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/jul/28/record-46-of-uks-electricity-generated-by-clean-energy-sources-in-2015

Interesting chart in link below.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/jan/06/uk-wind-power-coal-green-groups-carbon-taxes
I do not know if the race to renewables helps or hinders methods to match supply to peak demand.
There is also some controversy over the carbon footprint of turbine manufacture and the viability of the exercise without the government subsidies and carbon taxes. Some also question the reliability of turbines. I feel the information to make a reasoned opinion simply does not exist or is not available. On paper it all looks very green. But is it? Could as much be achieved with a variable tariff to kill demand at peak times?


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Subject: RE: BS: battery storage. Hype or the future?
From: robomatic
Date: 13 Feb 18 - 05:50 PM

It's a large subject with many niches and complexities, but some of the main issues are:

Use of batteries in vehicles: Battery storage versus hydrogen storage for a fuel-cell car. A fuel cell car uses the same electric engine, but hydrogen, being the smallest molecule, seaps through most tanks.
Recovery of energy through dynamic breaking. This is one of the most useful properties of electric vehicles, and is usually not a capability of fuel-cell cars unless there is battery storage. Not usually mentioned is that batteries don't typically charge at a very fast rate, so energy storage capacitors are used, which can be charged almost infinitely. They cannot store as much energy as batteries, so they are an additional complication to electric cars. I heard several years ago that lithium ion batteries can be made that are capable of being charged almost as fast as capacitors, so maybe they'll simplify the problem. The main issue is that you can't store near the same amount of energy in even the most efficient battery as you can store in a fuel tank with gasoline. And the physics apparently says that you never really will. Lithium ion allows relatively light batteries with good cold storage characteriestics, and they are getting better. Also, i think lithium is relatively plentiful and innocuous, but I'm not up on the reality of how long they last and how hard they are to recycle. There are real expense and recycle issues with the nickel in the Toyota Prius batteries. Toyota will buy back the battery after some number of miles. Lithium ion have that burst into flames issue but this has been 'solved' (so far) by providing the battery with its own governing circuit which monitors it for heat feedback issues and gives it a certain lifetime after which the battery must be changed out. I've been told that when laptop batteries go dead it is sometimes becauyse their self-monitoring systems have simply gone 'time's up' onT them.

Meanwhile, for stationary power systems, weight is no limit, just safety, reliability, lifetime cost. A few minutes of high power might not seem like much, but they count for a lot in the electric power world because they assist power plants with sudden high demand. For instance, every time you start up a regular large electric motor, it draws from six to twelve times its running current for up to a minute to get up to its operating speed. Another thing that can happen is when you turn off a major generator while turning on another. This may take a few minutes. Often for reliable power, you have both generators running sharing the load all the time, which allows reliability but burns a lot of fuel. The power people have several terms: Rolling reserves, standby power, base load. What it all adds up to is that the newer renewables, wind and solar, are not as reliable because of stuff like weather and cloud cover. Of course, the most reliable generators are renewable too, big dams and hydro, but they go along with big-time environmental changes.
Big battery banks are heavy and expensive, but reliable.
Other forms of transitional power supply are spinning weights and compressed air. A reliable but environment changes is to pump water uphill, store it in a reservoir, then generate it hydro-style when you need it. It works well until it doesn't.

So battery storage is a part of the future, and certainly can be a part of the hype given the way people tend to overshoot the science to sell an idea.

Amory Lovins of the Rocky Mountain Institute, used to remind us that an unnecessary watt saved was just as 'good' as an additional watt generated. He called this 'Negawatts'.


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Subject: RE: BS: battery storage. Hype or the future?
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Feb 18 - 08:44 PM

There's this.


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Subject: RE: BS: battery storage. Hype or the future?
From: Mr Red
Date: 14 Feb 18 - 06:17 AM

recently installed in South Australia can supply enought energy to run South Australia for less than 2 minutes,

And just how long does it take to fire up a (eg) jet engine? The battery is there to cover the sudden dips that could cause a catastrophic run-away disconnect that plunges a whole area into power-outage. It is so easy to rubbish something, so much harder to think. And doesn't it have super capacitors that would supply power for a second or so? To save battery life from the most severe charge/discharge cycle.
In these days of internet dependent industry (& government) - security of power is critical - India does it piecemeal with heavily polluting diesel generators on every corner.

45 years ago the UK built a big battery that could power Manchester for 30 minutes. They called it Dinorwic**. And I bet in those days they could fire up slower in-fill capacity in that time.

**think pumped storage - hydro.


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Subject: RE: BS: battery storage. Hype or the future?
From: Iains
Date: 14 Feb 18 - 09:04 AM

As a bit of thread drift I was working for a Canadian mining company prospecting in Snowdonia in the early 70's. One of the prospects I was working, on the Moelwyns, had underground slate workings that had constant army truck traffic. Those departing down the viciously steep access track were flying red flags. Apparently the PTB had paid no heed to the fact that their pump storage scheme and the lower lying village of Ffestiniog were both at risk from a 5000 ton explosives store that had been "forgotten?". I assume the guilty parties were subsequently given promotion and awarded knighthoods. Had it gone off there would have been been no boiling kettles for tea and probably no intact china nearby to pour it into. and Ffestiniog likely only a memory.


https://books.google.ie/books?id=Jy-B8WBXRooC&pg=PA767&lpg=PA767&dq=explosives+5000tons+moelwyn&source=bl&ots=MDfdITlGSU&sig=CXl


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Subject: RE: BS: battery storage. Hype or the future?
From: Iains
Date: 14 Feb 18 - 02:12 PM

Interesting possibility!
https://www.wired.com/story/bill-joy-finds-the-jesus-battery/


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