Tech: MP3 to FLAC Conversions

Subject: Tech: MP3 to FLAC Conversions
From: GUEST,CJB
Date: 19 Feb 18 - 06:43 AM

There are a number of old Beeb programmes doing the rounds such as 'My Kind of Folk,' 'Navy Lark,' etc. Basically these are low bitrate MP3s from reel-reel / cassette home-taped recordings with all the lossiness and compression that the MP3 format can generate.

However folks are converting them onto FLAC files with high bit-rates and then claiming that they are now high fidelity recordings.

But how can that be? How can detail once compressed ever be restored? Isn't it entropy - you can't ever get back what is lost? Isn't this all a misleading, a bit of a fraud?

The problem is that folks equate FLAC files (which have some compression) with WAV files (which are simply raw data).

But a low bitrate crappy recording in MP3, even when converted to FLAC or WAV, is STILL a low bitrate crappy recording.

Subject: RE: Tech: MP3 to FLAC Conversions
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 19 Feb 18 - 06:50 AM

Such FLAc files converted from mp3 are known as "bloated", and it is absolutely pointless in doing this other than to fool people.

Yes, if a raw wav file is converted to FLAC, it can later be converted back to wav with no loss of quality whatsoever using ffmpeg for instance.

Subject: RE: Tech: MP3 to FLAC Conversions
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Feb 18 - 07:34 AM

Converting Mp3 to Flac is either stupidity or deception...

Freeware "Trader's Little Helper" can be helpful in testing the integrity of downloaded Flacs.

Expand the flac back to wav, and then run Trader's Little Helper test
to determine if there is a high probability that the file is genuinely lossless...

I'm sure there must be other test methods by now.

I'm years behind the times in these matters...

Subject: RE: Tech: MP3 to FLAC Conversions
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 19 Feb 18 - 08:06 AM

Traders Little Helper is a great little programme, and it's free of course.

Subject: RE: Tech: MP3 to FLAC Conversions
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Feb 18 - 08:49 AM

You can use Adobe Audition to distinguish bloated lossless audio from real lossless audio

Subject: RE: Tech: MP3 to FLAC Conversions
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 19 Feb 18 - 12:53 PM

You can use Adobe Audition to distinguish bloated lossless audio from real lossless audio

Genuine question: if your ears can't distinguish a difference, does it really matter?

Subject: RE: Tech: MP3 to FLAC Conversions
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Feb 18 - 01:06 PM

It matters to those who can tell the difference...
or those who can't, but are sharing the flacs with others who possibly can...

It's about maintaining the full quality and integrity of a music file to cover all potential uses and users...

Surely, it's not in anybody's positive interest to carlessly or deliberately
permanently impair the original audio quality of a music file...???

Or do you tend to prefer 10th generation photocopies of photocopies of a fine art print...??????

Subject: RE: Tech: MP3 to FLAC Conversions
From: GUEST,Some bloke
Date: 19 Feb 18 - 01:29 PM

Certainly the proof of the pudding is in the eating.

Simple MP3 to FLAC isnt going to do anything other make a larger file of the same quality.

There are however ways of cleaning up audio files of any format. I use Logic Pro to record but it is also excellent at making background hiss go away, clicks and pops disappear and if I wish, enhancing.

Ok, it may introduce a blend that wasnt on the original, but if your ears cant tell, then great.

After all, every single recording ever has buggered about with the integrity of the musician in the studio's acoustic sound to begin with.

Subject: RE: Tech: MP3 to FLAC Conversions
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Feb 18 - 01:52 PM

The way I [and many thousands / millions ?] of other quality audio enthusiast look at it...

As long as the original recording / digital safety copy is preserved and stored for posterity,
we can bugger about as much as we like with editing software, tonal manipulation, special FX, or whatever...

That's all part of the fun of enjoying music and sound...

Remasters, remixes and mashups have become a significant part of modern music culture....

Anybody with a computer or even smartphone can access software to denoise - or add noise - to any track..

Nothing is absolutely sacrosanct..

But just as long as the original remains securely undiluted, unabused, and accessable in safe storage..

Subject: RE: Tech: MP3 to FLAC Conversions
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Feb 18 - 02:01 PM

Btw.. since my teen years my background has been in audio and photography.
It was ingrained in me to create the highest possible quality negative, transparency, recording...

Then from that starting point, I could manipulate and purposely degrade, and experiment with copies
as much as I wanted, or was required for a finished product.

But as i continue to stress, the originals were safely stored in pristine full quality, for whenever they might be needed to be worked with again.

Subject: RE: Tech: MP3 to FLAC Conversions
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 19 Feb 18 - 03:40 PM

I couldn't agree more!

Subject: RE: Tech: MP3 to FLAC Conversions
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 19 Feb 18 - 04:43 PM

Copy this text and save as a .bat file in a folder containing ffmpeg.exe:

SET url=http://a.files.bbci.co.uk/media/live/manifesto/audio/simulcast/hls/uk/sbr_high/ak/bbc_radio_three.m3u8
ffmpeg -y -v 16 -stats -i %url% -t 00:01:00 output.ts

This will capture BBC Radio 3 for one minute in a ts file at 384kbps - but wait a minute, the BBC webstream is 320kbps so what is going on?

Subject: RE: Tech: MP3 to FLAC Conversions
From: Mysha
Date: 19 Feb 18 - 04:48 PM

Hi,

I guess the reason for converting to an in-itself lossless format would be the better support for writing to a sound-CD.

The result is a high fidelity recording in the sense of losing nothing of the original. What using that term in this context ignores, is that the original - the thing the lossless recording is based on - is not the artist playing, but rather the MP3. The FLAC file will be a very precise and lossless reproduction of the lossy recording before it, in all its air wave, reel, and MP3 glory.

Bye,
                                                                Mysha

Subject: RE: Tech: MP3 to FLAC Conversions
From: DaveRo
Date: 20 Feb 18 - 02:52 AM

Bonzo3legs wrote: … a ts file at 384kbps - but wait a minute, the BBC webstream is 320kbps so what is going on?

That's the transport stream overhead.

After I downloaded your ts file of The Transports (thank you) I stripped the ts container leaving an aac file. I used 'ffmpeg -c:a copy' so the audio was copied, not recoded. The aac file was quite a bit smaller. The length of the performance was the same so the bitrate will have gone down - probably to 320, though I don't remember checking (I would use ffprobe). No point storing all the ts packets.

Subject: RE: Tech: MP3 to FLAC Conversions
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 21 Feb 18 - 02:58 AM

Thanks DaveRo, I understand now.

Subject: RE: Tech: MP3 to FLAC Conversions
From: leeneia
Date: 22 Feb 18 - 10:43 AM

If I learn a lovely new song from it, what's the harm?

Subject: RE: Tech: MP3 to FLAC Conversions
From: Mr Red
Date: 23 Feb 18 - 04:45 AM

Being devils advocate. It all depends on where the conversion takes place.

If the people processing the various sources into one contiguous file are doing some clever filtering, glitch removal etc, why throw away the effort?

If the processors have archived in MP3 then it is a waste of time.

Know where the FLAC file comes from.

If you are converting - do you really need to waste capacity? Or is it for neatness with available playback software &/or documentation apps?

Subject: RE: Tech: MP3 to FLAC Conversions
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Feb 18 - 05:51 AM

The last time I looked into this was a good 5 or 6 years ago..

Prevailing opinions then, seemed to be flac didn't sound as good as the original WAV
when it was reconverted back from flac to Wav...

If I recall correctly, apparently some software music players struggled to squeeze full audio quality out of flac
due to all the extra processing power required...????

Like I said, not sure how well I remember this...

Subject: RE: Tech: MP3 to FLAC Conversions
From: Mr Red
Date: 24 Feb 18 - 06:45 AM

Generally speaking, speech doesn't suffer as badly as music when encoding in MP3.

With music there is more energy in the higher frequencies, and thus more information up there. Hence the word fidelity.

Subject: RE: Tech: MP3 to FLAC Conversions
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Feb 18 - 07:34 AM

I now see an unintenetional ambibuity in what I last wrote... so.....

Basically, as i used to understand it:


Wav - sounds good

wav converted to flac and played in software media player - sounds not quite as good

flac reconverted back to wav - sounds good

Subject: RE: Tech: MP3 to FLAC Conversions
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 24 Feb 18 - 02:06 PM

Wav converted to flac sounds exactly the same as original wav on my JVC X241 car player, but that's with tired ears!

Subject: RE: Tech: MP3 to FLAC Conversions
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Feb 18 - 04:01 PM

This is purely a guess, because I've been distracted away from audio interests for the last 5 or 6 years...

When flac started to become dominant as a convenient format for sharing lossless music;
perhaps the software music players at that time might have struggled to decode the wavs contained within flacs,
being unable play them at best CD quality in real time...???

Maybe more recent media players are programmed with better effective codecs & algorithms,
and it is no longer a problem...?????

I'm prepared to be told I'm out of touch and talking bollocks...

Subject: RE: Tech: MP3 to FLAC Conversions
From: Mr Red
Date: 25 Feb 18 - 02:42 AM

I think it is fair to say that PCs, software and capacity are getting cheaper and more mature. And faster.

Whereas yer bollocks are slowing down!

Subject: RE: Tech: MP3 to FLAC Conversions
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 25 Feb 18 - 04:09 AM

At least computers don't get offended when disagreed with!!!

Subject: RE: Tech: MP3 to FLAC Conversions
From: Mr Red
Date: 27 Feb 18 - 06:29 AM

Have you tried writing computer programs!!!!!!?