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BS: If Africa had not suffered Colonialism

robomatic 13 Mar 18 - 10:14 PM
Mrrzy 13 Mar 18 - 08:09 AM
Steve Shaw 13 Mar 18 - 06:02 AM
Mrrzy 12 Mar 18 - 11:08 PM
robomatic 12 Mar 18 - 02:30 PM
Bonzo3legs 12 Mar 18 - 12:57 PM
Bonzo3legs 12 Mar 18 - 08:09 AM
Steve Shaw 12 Mar 18 - 07:23 AM
Bonzo3legs 12 Mar 18 - 07:08 AM
robomatic 11 Mar 18 - 02:47 PM
Big Al Whittle 11 Mar 18 - 08:17 AM
Bonzo3legs 11 Mar 18 - 07:18 AM
Big Al Whittle 11 Mar 18 - 06:08 AM
Mrrzy 10 Mar 18 - 04:39 PM
robomatic 10 Mar 18 - 01:47 PM
Big Al Whittle 10 Mar 18 - 12:23 PM
Big Al Whittle 10 Mar 18 - 12:22 PM
Jackaroodave 10 Mar 18 - 11:05 AM
Mrrzy 10 Mar 18 - 09:03 AM
Big Al Whittle 10 Mar 18 - 02:33 AM
robomatic 09 Mar 18 - 11:52 PM
Mrrzy 09 Mar 18 - 11:31 PM
Senoufou 09 Mar 18 - 05:15 PM
Big Al Whittle 09 Mar 18 - 04:51 PM
bobad 09 Mar 18 - 03:53 PM
Senoufou 09 Mar 18 - 03:33 PM
Big Al Whittle 09 Mar 18 - 02:58 PM
Jackaroodave 09 Mar 18 - 02:35 PM
Mrrzy 09 Mar 18 - 12:46 PM
Big Al Whittle 09 Mar 18 - 12:08 PM
bobad 09 Mar 18 - 09:52 AM
Mrrzy 09 Mar 18 - 09:06 AM
Stanron 08 Mar 18 - 07:37 PM
bobad 08 Mar 18 - 07:28 PM
Big Al Whittle 08 Mar 18 - 07:15 PM
Senoufou 08 Mar 18 - 05:01 PM
Jackaroodave 08 Mar 18 - 04:53 PM
Senoufou 08 Mar 18 - 03:30 PM
Jim Carroll 08 Mar 18 - 03:02 PM
robomatic 08 Mar 18 - 02:05 PM
Senoufou 08 Mar 18 - 01:44 PM
robomatic 08 Mar 18 - 12:08 PM
bobad 08 Mar 18 - 11:18 AM
wysiwyg 08 Mar 18 - 10:52 AM
Mrrzy 07 Mar 18 - 09:55 PM
robomatic 07 Mar 18 - 01:50 PM
wysiwyg 07 Mar 18 - 01:26 PM
Kenny B 07 Mar 18 - 09:44 AM
Mrrzy 07 Mar 18 - 09:39 AM
robomatic 06 Mar 18 - 06:24 PM

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Subject: RE: BS: If Africa had not suffered Colonialism
From: robomatic
Date: 13 Mar 18 - 10:14 PM

I think James Blish made a noble effort with "The Seedling Stars"

If the OT is anything to go by, mankind was not made to settle down. We were kicked out of the Garden of Eden for a reason.


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Subject: RE: BS: If Africa had not suffered Colonialism
From: Mrrzy
Date: 13 Mar 18 - 08:09 AM

We were in different places long enough to evolve the different skin colors and fat distributions etc - though we all came from Africa. The different what-we-perceive-as-race-today did evolve separately after migrating to where what had been africans evolved into the "races" - is what I meant.


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Subject: RE: BS: If Africa had not suffered Colonialism
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Mar 18 - 06:02 AM

You may be assuming there that Homo sapiens had multiple origins on different continents. You can only "speciate" if you're there in the first place. That means you either arose in several places independently or you migrated there.


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Subject: RE: BS: If Africa had not suffered Colonialism
From: Mrrzy
Date: 12 Mar 18 - 11:08 PM

I do wonder what would be different about humanity if we had stayed on our various continents long enough to speciate... not just not colonize Africa.


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Subject: RE: BS: If Africa had not suffered Colonialism
From: robomatic
Date: 12 Mar 18 - 02:30 PM

University of Wakonda?


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Subject: RE: BS: If Africa had not suffered Colonialism
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 12 Mar 18 - 12:57 PM

One of the top schools in Africa I believe, where they teach common sense and not lefty gibberish!


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Subject: RE: BS: If Africa had not suffered Colonialism
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 12 Mar 18 - 08:09 AM

Ha ha!!


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Subject: RE: BS: If Africa had not suffered Colonialism
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Mar 18 - 07:23 AM

Tell us where he was educated. They could urgently do with a visit from Ofsted.


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Subject: RE: BS: If Africa had not suffered Colonialism
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 12 Mar 18 - 07:08 AM

A highly educated neighbour from Siera Leone considers that had Africa not been colonised up to 50% of the population would have been killed/tortured etc during inter tribal wars!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: If Africa had not suffered Colonialism
From: robomatic
Date: 11 Mar 18 - 02:47 PM

I've just been listening to "A World Lit Only by Fire" by William Manchester. It's the story of Europe in the Middle Ages and it's progressive march of various peoples, kicked out of one domain and settling another, typically obliterating the population it comes upon. What little civilization is left is pretty shabby, and the legal system knows neither justice nor mercy.


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Subject: RE: BS: If Africa had not suffered Colonialism
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Mar 18 - 08:17 AM

its an ill wind...


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Subject: RE: BS: If Africa had not suffered Colonialism
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 11 Mar 18 - 07:18 AM

Subjunctively speaking, if Africa had not been colonised, I would not have had to do an essay on "the scramble for Africa" for which I got A+ at school!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: If Africa had not suffered Colonialism
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Mar 18 - 06:08 AM

of course poor people in third world countries will be worse off than poor people in relatively prosperous countries.

And in a way - you can blame the 'devil take the hindmost' discipline that economics seems to impose on us.

I say seems, because its very short sighted. Just as the southern states in the antebellum America saw slavery as being the basis of their economy, when it was in fact slavery that was keeping them poor - thus it is with the third world. We will all be better off if Africa becomes full of wage earning consumers buying the goods we produce.

however what hope do they truly have. the engine of change must come from within.
And if we cannot help our own poor - despite having ruthless secular logic applied by teams of government think tanks - what chance do countries with all manner of outlandish beliefs - both social and spiritual.


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Subject: RE: BS: If Africa had not suffered Colonialism
From: Mrrzy
Date: 10 Mar 18 - 04:39 PM

Yeah, Mom knew starvation, as did our Ivorian friend.


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Subject: RE: BS: If Africa had not suffered Colonialism
From: robomatic
Date: 10 Mar 18 - 01:47 PM

That reminds me of a Pickles cartoon. Pickles and her husband are in church and the speech bubble, obviously from the minister giving the homily, is asking: "And what do we have to do before we obtain forgiveness for our sins?"
Next panel: Another speech bubble from way back in the congregation: "SIN!"

My thoughts in approval of white privilege will come later should this thread survive and not be closed by a nervous nelly mod.


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Subject: RE: BS: If Africa had not suffered Colonialism
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Mar 18 - 12:23 PM

after all if we're going to confession - let's have something to confess!


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Subject: RE: BS: If Africa had not suffered Colonialism
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Mar 18 - 12:22 PM

its not actually a sense of entitlement. its more to with the fact that my parents physically starved as children in the 1920's and 30's. THey fought a war. made a contract with a post war government, and paid huge taxes on tiny wages all their lives, which resulted in lifetimes of poverty - poverty of hope, poverty of ambition for their children.

I've seen tory and labour governments tear up the agreements they made, dishonour the promises made - steal as much as they could of the pittances they had managed to save.

I just wonder where and when the reward comes for the basic decency of the English people.

They didn't fish their seas to extinction like the Spanish. They didn't award themselves the right to own sub machine guns. THey reformed and liberalised the legal system and purged gory executions and legitimised previously illegal sexual practices. They financed with the aforessaid taxes a NHS and social security service, which is pillaged and exploited, and the only regrets of the party who created seems to be that we don't throw it open to the whole world.

perhaps our mistake was not to be as rapacious, reactionary and greedy as the top layer of our society.


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Subject: RE: BS: If Africa had not suffered Colonialism
From: Jackaroodave
Date: 10 Mar 18 - 11:05 AM

Mrrzy:"Corollary, we feel entitled to what we have since we were born to it, rather than seeing it as the privilege it actually is."

Yes! Or we don't even see it at all.

Research, experience, and introspection have convinced me that we tend to look to circumstances to help explain our shortcomings but to attribute our successes to our abilities.

(Friends, please interpret "we" and "our" as non-inclusive if that's appropriate.)


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Subject: RE: BS: If Africa had not suffered Colonialism
From: Mrrzy
Date: 10 Mar 18 - 09:03 AM

We are privileged for being born American. What luck.

Corollary, we feel entitled to what we have since we were born to it, rather than seeing it as the privilege it actually is.

Those of us who lived in the Third World, sub-saharan west Africa in my case, see the luxuries. Standard americans see normalcy.

I used to teach my kids we were rich when we were on food stamps - We still had a washer and dryer in the house. I mean, really, that was not poverty.

Another corrolary is that when people don't have as much as others here in richdom USA, they (the poorer) think they are actually poor.

I had an Ivorian friend look around and say, Only in America are the poor FAT.


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Subject: RE: BS: If Africa had not suffered Colonialism
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Mar 18 - 02:33 AM

okay. let's say we were privileged. and its because we're white. and because we lived in a country were the rich guys invested in the slave trade.

what in your opinion are the corollaries arising from that?


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Subject: RE: BS: If Africa had not suffered Colonialism
From: robomatic
Date: 09 Mar 18 - 11:52 PM

I have felt 'white privilege' only if I were to put it in words in the context of work environment and place in which it occurred I would've called it 'Christian privilege'. In my own description at the time I described it as: "He tried to white-boy me." I didn't act on it because I am resistent to bringing things to law or HR. While it is for the most part visible as a kind of veneer, an attitude sensed, or a comment one is not sure one heard accurately, or a quote of something someone else heard. In one case a Mormon co-worker (a stand-up guy I would fight for) made the comment vis-a-vis my immigrant background that it was 'nice to have me here'. He meant well, but to my ears it sounded condescending.

A version of this visible to all is the so-called 'War on Christmas'. I don't really have a problem with being wished "Merry Christmas" by those who know no better, but there are those who definitely do know better.

This occurs even in multi-ethnic environments. Just ask Bernie Sanders. And I've been told of nasty anti-Semitic remarks passed by black co-workers in the presence of someone they knew was Jewish.

So I have no difficulty in believing in 'White Privilege' but I liked what comedian Louis C.K. did with it in one of his monologues.


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Subject: RE: BS: If Africa had not suffered Colonialism
From: Mrrzy
Date: 09 Mar 18 - 11:31 PM

I am only white by most standards. Not white enough for the alt-right, but white enough to be supposed to have guilt according to many americans of partial african descent some of whose ancestors were slaves. Now, 3 out of 4 of my grandparents were foreign and so were not even descended from white American slave owners, and the 4th was Quaker so even though *some* of his white European-descended ancestors were in this country during slave times, they were either moving away from slave states or working the underground railroad. I have no guilt at all.


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Subject: RE: BS: If Africa had not suffered Colonialism
From: Senoufou
Date: 09 Mar 18 - 05:15 PM

In the early seventies, I taught in an extremely poor area of Glasgow called Bluevale, the wrong side of Duke Street. The pupils were malnourished, badly housed (some in condemned properties infested with rats and cockroaches) and had impetigo, scabies, head lice and so on. Their parent/s were often drunk or violent. They were showered once a week by a lady who brought clean towels and examined their skin. They were sent to Mugdock Residential School for six weeks' respite.
Their poverty was indeed heartbreaking (I truly loved those bairns) BUT I can assure anyone who hasn't been there that the things I've seen in Senegal, Gambia, Ivory Coast, Ghana and so on were MUCH WORSE.


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Subject: RE: BS: If Africa had not suffered Colonialism
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Mar 18 - 04:51 PM

Senoflou you wouldn't want the white privileges that exist in some corners of our land for a dog.

You're right. I haven't seen lots of third world places. The only place in Africa I've seen is Tunisia. Spent a week there once. Saw the townships of people living in cardboard boxes. saw the mausoleum with the solid gold roof for the head honcho.

You know if you've ever done a job like teaching in the inner ring of one of our great cities, and watched the tory party conference, you'd realise our problems and the solution to them aren't so different from those of third world countries.


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Subject: RE: BS: If Africa had not suffered Colonialism
From: bobad
Date: 09 Mar 18 - 03:53 PM

I thank you for your absolution Father Al, my burden has been lifted.


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Subject: RE: BS: If Africa had not suffered Colonialism
From: Senoufou
Date: 09 Mar 18 - 03:33 PM

I understand that you feel concern for the poor people in UK Al, but unless one has been to some 'Third World' countries and seen the extremes of poverty, disease, suffering and literal starvation (children and adults) one can't appreciate the difference. 'Poor' here is not the same as 'poor' over there.

I agree with Jackaroodave that 'White Privilege' is a good watchword. I am constantly aware of how fortunate I am, and try in an admittedly limited way to help as much as I can. But I don't personally feel responsible for colonisation, exploitation or enslavement that took place without my involvement or complicity.


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Subject: RE: BS: If Africa had not suffered Colonialism
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Mar 18 - 02:58 PM

both very simplistic reductio ad absurdums.

we have some very poor people of all colours in my country , England.

some very rich people - all very determined to pay very little tax, and acknowledging no responsibility for the privileges they enjoy or the necessity to keep this a stable society.

India has more millionaires than any other country - so presumably they have the same problem in spades.

Cue for the usual chorus of right wing claptrappers to say - rich people pay more tax than us. no they don't. they pay more income tax. but most taxation is raised indirectly - and this inevitably falls on the poor.


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Subject: RE: BS: If Africa had not suffered Colonialism
From: Jackaroodave
Date: 09 Mar 18 - 02:35 PM

Rather than "White Guilt," I've found "White Privilege" a concept useful to inform oneself about and to meditate on. It's actual, present, measurable, and has troubling consequences for all of us. Dealing with it needn't involve finger pointing or breast-beating; ignoring it can impede our empathy for our neighbors and our awareness of ourselves.


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Subject: RE: BS: If Africa had not suffered Colonialism
From: Mrrzy
Date: 09 Mar 18 - 12:46 PM

Sigh. If only.


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Subject: RE: BS: If Africa had not suffered Colonialism
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Mar 18 - 12:08 PM

i hereby absolve you from all guilt or responsibility or any inference that you played a part in the slave trade, the Irish potato famine, the extinction of the buffalo, and slaughter of the innocents.

Under a statute of limitations bobad you can walk away from the court of public opinion a free man; your name unblemished....your reputation vindicated, before you lie the sunlit uplands....

fair enough...?


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Subject: RE: BS: If Africa had not suffered Colonialism
From: bobad
Date: 09 Mar 18 - 09:52 AM

Yes but they weren't white and European so that doesn't play into the Western white guilt narrative.


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Subject: RE: BS: If Africa had not suffered Colonialism
From: Mrrzy
Date: 09 Mar 18 - 09:06 AM

Africans already colonized Europe, they (well, some of them) had all of Iberia and half of what would become France at the least.
Middle Easterners colonized Africa (North and East) long before the Europeans got to West and Southern Africa.


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Subject: RE: BS: If Africa had not suffered Colonialism
From: Stanron
Date: 08 Mar 18 - 07:37 PM

The British Isles were colonised, by the Beaker people, by the Romans, By the Angles and Saxons and then by the Normans. Give it another 1000 years and let's see who Africa colonises.


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Subject: RE: BS: If Africa had not suffered Colonialism
From: bobad
Date: 08 Mar 18 - 07:28 PM

Exactement!


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Subject: RE: BS: If Africa had not suffered Colonialism
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Mar 18 - 07:15 PM

its a bit pointless - Africa WAS bleeding well colonised. who knows what would have happened.

What would have happened if Abraham Lincoln was born a kangaroo in Australia.....

its all bollocks, isn't it?


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Subject: RE: BS: If Africa had not suffered Colonialism
From: Senoufou
Date: 08 Mar 18 - 05:01 PM

Thank you Jackaroodave.
One thing about the colonials is that they established hospitals and clinics. The TB centre in Abidjan is large and very effective in diagnosing and treating the disease. The trouble is, it was originally set up to treat any French who became ill, and one has to pay in order to use its services. We pay for Ramatou's treatment, but if we weren't around, the illness would just progress until she died. (as have several of my husband's old schoolmates)
It would seem that the whites were principally interested in keeping the locals free from infectious diseases they themselves didn't want to catch!


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Subject: RE: BS: If Africa had not suffered Colonialism
From: Jackaroodave
Date: 08 Mar 18 - 04:53 PM

So glad to hear about Ramatou's recovery, Eliza. Good news seems scarce these days.


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Subject: RE: BS: If Africa had not suffered Colonialism
From: Senoufou
Date: 08 Mar 18 - 03:30 PM

But the difference Jim is that the Africans are making these changes to themselves in order to emulate 'superior' white Westerners. Those other practices (tattoos, piercings etc) are a form of body art for one's own pleasure.
I suppose one could question why I like to get a bit of a tan when the sun comes out. But I'm not trying to copy any particular racial characteristic, I just look more healthy than when I'm pale and pasty, and the extra vitamin D is good for me.


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Subject: RE: BS: If Africa had not suffered Colonialism
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Mar 18 - 03:02 PM

"It's as cockeyed as Orientals getting their epicanthal lids removed."
Or Europeans sticking bits of metal through their ears, bnose nipples, genitals - not to mention boring thousands of holes though their skin and pouring indelible ink into it or removing foreskins shortly after birth -
Chacun gout (if that's not too "foreign" for some people)
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: If Africa had not suffered Colonialism
From: robomatic
Date: 08 Mar 18 - 02:05 PM

I agree. I mentioned elsewhere on a Mudcat thread about hearing that Somalis use skin products to lighten their skin, some have mercury in them. Mygodwhy. It's as cockeyed as Orientals getting their epicanthal lids removed.


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Subject: RE: BS: If Africa had not suffered Colonialism
From: Senoufou
Date: 08 Mar 18 - 01:44 PM

My numerous sisters-in-law (all Senoufo) are the most beautiful women I have ever met. They are elegant, slim, very dark-skinned and have that glorious thick afro hair. But they spend a lot of time trying to look like white people. It breaks my heart. They use a smelly product on their skin to whiten it (actually, it looks yellow) which causes skin problems. They use preparations to straighten their hair, which make it go thin and fall out. They're ashamed to be slim because white people are plump.
All this came about presumably because the French colonisers were seen as 'superior' and white people as 'more attractive'.

I once confided to Ramatou that I'd give anything to have been born an African, as I love their grace, elegance and colour. She stared at me as if I was completely barking mad.

(By the way, some Mudcatters may remember that she recently contracted TB, but I'm pleased to say her treatment is working well, and in about four months she should be completely cured)


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Subject: RE: BS: If Africa had not suffered Colonialism
From: robomatic
Date: 08 Mar 18 - 12:08 PM

wysiwyg:
Gotcha: Your well-put query (Lucy and all)went right over my knobby head. Thank you for explicating and not just assuming I was trying to be irritating (I wasn't). I sorta assumed by virtue of your posts YOU had some African connection. For the record, one can be white and African if one is born in Africa or descended from Afrikaaners or other European derived residents. Or African-American but not 'black' as an example President Barack Obama was a descendant of an African but not of African-American slaves.

Mudcat in the past had at least one frequent poster who identified as African-American and would frequently address race-based issues. No one to my knowledge has so self-identified recently.

I don't find it unusual for people to opine about races/ religions/ conditions not their own, because people are curious. Does that mean people post stuff that might be ignorant or inaccurate? Surely. But by being in the open they are subject to correction. In general I try not to get 'judgy' about posts because I want to know what people really think and not get them trying to camoflage themselves too much. More often than not people have chosen a way to express themselves that pushed my buttons more than the thing they were expressing.

And there is truth in the notion that we're all from Africa. I think a bit more awareness of this is a good thing, encouraging cross sensitivities

We ALL come from tribes at some point.

And again for the record, I do not identify as African other than as I stated above.


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Subject: RE: BS: If Africa had not suffered Colonialism
From: bobad
Date: 08 Mar 18 - 11:18 AM

We are all of one race in spite of attempts to divide on the basis of artifact of pigmentation or political borders.


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Subject: RE: BS: If Africa had not suffered Colonialism
From: wysiwyg
Date: 08 Mar 18 - 10:52 AM

Robo, do you IDENTIFY as African heritage such as African American, Afro Cuban, African, etc? Are people targeted as people of color reading or posting in this thread, that's what I was asking when I referenced Lucy.

~S~


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Subject: RE: BS: If Africa had not suffered Colonialism
From: Mrrzy
Date: 07 Mar 18 - 09:55 PM

Indeed.


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Subject: RE: BS: If Africa had not suffered Colonialism
From: robomatic
Date: 07 Mar 18 - 01:50 PM

Well, aren't we ALL of African heritage?


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Subject: RE: BS: If Africa had not suffered Colonialism
From: wysiwyg
Date: 07 Mar 18 - 01:26 PM

So are any of us posting on this thread or reading it.... Africans or recent (not Lucy) African-heritage.... and if not, innit a little.... um. .. strange that we european-heritage folks think we can opine accurately?

~S~


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Subject: RE: BS: If Africa had not suffered Colonialism
From: Kenny B
Date: 07 Mar 18 - 09:44 AM

moors ..... would the be nobody called peat?


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Subject: RE: BS: If Africa had not suffered Colonialism
From: Mrrzy
Date: 07 Mar 18 - 09:39 AM

Ooh I have to steal that one.

What if the moors had never invaded Europe?


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Subject: RE: BS: If Africa had not suffered Colonialism
From: robomatic
Date: 06 Mar 18 - 06:24 PM

As physicist Fritz Houtermans told his co-workers, when defending his heritage:

"While your ancestors were still in the trees, mine were already forging checks!"


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