BS: Sexual impropriety at Westminster

Subject: RE: BS: Sexual impropriety at Westminster
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Mar 18 - 07:04 AM

No-one would interpret "other parties do not have such a problem" as "other parties have no problem."

I did and a straw poll amongst my peers reveals that they did too. Therefore saying 'no-one would' is invalid. I suspect, but cannot give an exact number, that many other people would also interpret it as I did. Whether you phrased in in such a way to be ambiguous on purpose or by accident is known only to you. Given your track record I suspect the former.


Yeh, OK, the rabid antisemitic rapist has an element of poetic license in it but it is not too far from what you are saying. Answer this simple question if you dare.

Are members of the Labour party more likely to be antisemitic and to abuse women than members of any other political party?

A simple yes or no is all that is required.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Sexual impropriety at Westminster
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Mar 18 - 07:12 AM

Some points from Rag's story, (originally Dave's and mine) from the original source.
The research quoted only consideed Tory MPs.
The accusation against 4 Labour MPs were made elsewhere.

"It includes claims of sexual misconduct against 37 male and female politicians, including sexual harassment allegations and reported extramarital affairs. More than 25 are alleged to have been “inappropriate with female researchers”."

Examples given,
"A prominent female MP is accused of having extramarital sex with young male researchers. At least two MPs are accused of getting their mistresses pregnant, with one allegedly paying for her to have an abortion. Other MPs have reportedly had sex in their private offices in Westminster while two Conservative politicians are accused of using the services of prostitutes.
The list also alleges that a video is circulating of one Tory backbencher engaged in an extreme sex act with three men."

No suggestion of anything no-consensual.

Subject: RE: BS: Sexual impropriety at Westminster
From: Jackaroodave
Date: 05 Mar 18 - 07:18 AM

Raggytash: "Don't know about you Jackaroo but it seems to me that someone is clutching at straws and trying to move the goal posts. Not really addressing the FACT that the Conservative party has a bigger problem as CLEARLY demonstrated by my link."

Yeah, I think often the best way to interpret a riposte is to look at what goes unanswered.

Subject: RE: BS: Sexual impropriety at Westminster
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Mar 18 - 07:22 AM

Dave,
No-one would interpret "other parties do not have such a problem" as "other parties have no problem."
I did and a straw poll amongst my peers reveals that they did too.

Bollocks Dave.
I do not believe that anyone would interpret "other parties do not have such a problem" as "other parties have no problem."

Are members of the Labour party more likely to be antisemitic and to abuse women than members of any other political party?

No, but there is evidence that Labour has a greater problem.
Much greater in terms of anti-Semitism.

Numerous prominent and senior Labour people and the entire NEC which includes the leadership say that Labour has a serious problem with anti-Semitism.
They do not say that of any other party and only Labour Jews have reported anti-Semitism from their own party.

Subject: RE: BS: Sexual impropriety at Westminster
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 Mar 18 - 07:23 AM

You know Dave you didn't put enough wriggles in.

Wriggle, wriggle, wriggle and more wriggle.

The FACT remains that more than 1 in ten Conservative MP's have had allegations made against them and the FACT is that less than 1 in sixty Labour MP's have.

Ergo the Conservatives have a problem at least 6 times larger.

Subject: RE: BS: Sexual impropriety at Westminster
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Mar 18 - 07:27 AM

link to source of Rag's story.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/dirty-dossier-accuses-mps-of-harassment-and-sex-in-offices-6f7q8kn8b

The research only considered Tory MPs.

Jackaroo,
I think often the best way to interpret a riposte is to look at what goes unanswered.

What have I left unanswered please?

Subject: RE: BS: Sexual impropriety at Westminster
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Mar 18 - 07:30 AM

Bollocks Dave.
I do not believe that anyone would interpret "other parties do not have such a problem" as "other parties have no problem."

So, you disbelieve what I say. Fair enough, that is your right. I know it to be true as do the others I asked. Your opinion on that is neither here nor there. The 'respect' that you have gained on this site is a good indication of other peoples opinions of you too.

I am glad you do not believe that Labour party members are more likely to be antisemitic or abusers of women. Next question then. If they are not, how do you account for the alleged greater problem that the Labour party is supposed to have?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Sexual impropriety at Westminster
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 Mar 18 - 07:40 AM

Link to my source

Which clearly shows 4 labour MP's were included, as I suspect does the Times link but it cannot be accessed without subscription.

Subject: RE: BS: Sexual impropriety at Westminster
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Mar 18 - 07:40 AM

BTW - I do not interpret "other parties do not have such a problem" as "other parties have no problem." but as "other parties do not have this particular problem"

such
s?t?/
determiner, predeterminer, & pronoun
determiner: such; pronoun: such

    1.
    of the type previously mentioned.
    "I have been involved in many such courses"
    2.
    of the type about to be mentioned.
    "there is no such thing as a free lunch"

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Sexual impropriety at Westminster
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Mar 18 - 08:35 AM

"It is a fact Jim and I have proved it with media quotes."
A mistake on my part
You originally claimed that "JEREMY CORBYN HAS BEEN ACCUSED BY NEARLY HALF THE FEMALE MPS IN HIS PARTY OF FAILING TO STOP THE "DISGUSTING AND TOTALLY UNACCEPTABLE" ABUSE OF WOMEN BY HIS SUPPORTERS."
The figure may have been 40 MPs - there is no indication that anybody outside Paarliament have complained, there is no indication that these people are "Jeremy Corbyn's supporters" - Labour has been riven with in-fighting since Corbyn came on the scene because of his attempted change of direction.
Antisemitism was proven to have been concocted by Israel as an attempt to undermine his leadership
Of course harassment is a feature in Parliament - as it is in every other walk of society.
Labour women are far more likely to complain than are Tories - they are my their nature far mor militant - the left has always played a mahjor lead in feminism and the Tories have always fought to keep women "in their place" - that i is the nature of left and right politics.
There in no indication anywhere that Labour harassment is any more serious than that of the other Parties - nobody has suggested that that is the case
The worst sexual scandals have been by the priveliged - House of Lords members who have pleaded they are unfit for trial because of theirt mental condition, the Dolphin Sqaure Covver up, the recent Park Lane hotel disclosures, Harvey Proctor, Damien Green...
In every case, their leaders "stood by them" as long as they could
Our very society is tilted to defend the wealthy and powerful from these charges - our justice system is based on "You will get the best defence money can buy"
How many complainants have been bought off on condition that "you don't talk to the press"
Making a political crusade of rape is not only obscene (a type of abuse in itself), it is also ludicrous when these cases touch every part of our society
Can I seriously suggest to all that we stop giving this sick attention-seeker the "oxygen of publicity" that he is seeking
He has lied consistently - first claiming that half Labour women have v=complained, then denying that he said it, then back to the same ludicrous claim
We relly need to stop encouraging this guy from making Mudcat a platform for his hate and bigotry
Jim Caarroll

Subject: RE: BS: Sexual impropriety at Westminster
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Mar 18 - 09:30 AM

Rag,
Which clearly shows 4 labour MP's were included, as I suspect does the Times link but it cannot be accessed without subscription.

I do not pay. You can open a free account for a limited number of articles per week.

The 4 Labour MPs were not part of the dossier which only looked at Tory MPs.
The dossier was not just about offences against women as the examples showed, and some of the accusations were against women.

Dave,
BTW - I do not interpret "other parties do not have such a problem" as "other parties have no problem." but as "other parties do not have this particular problem"

Bollocks . No-one would would do that, and I have acknowledged from the start that the Tories do have that particular problem anyway. It is just the scale of the problem under discussion.

Jim,
"It is a fact Jim and I have proved it with media quotes."
A mistake on my part

So you now accept that your repeated accusations of lying were false.
I deserve an apology.

Subject: RE: BS: Sexual impropriety at Westminster
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Mar 18 - 09:41 AM

"So you now accept that your repeated accusations of lying were false."
I most certainly don't - I mistakenly quoted a later adaptation of your original claim which was (one more time) "JEREMY CORBYN HAS BEEN ACCUSED BY NEARLY HALF THE FEMALE MPS IN HIS PARTY OF FAILING TO STOP THE "DISGUSTING AND TOTALLY UNACCEPTABLE" ABUSE OF WOMEN BY HIS SUPPORTERS."
That was a lie - your denial of having said it was a lie and your repetition of it was a lie
You have (as usual ) lied in order to use raped and molested women as a means of denigrating a Party that has historically shown more respect for women than any other party
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Sexual impropriety at Westminster
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 Mar 18 - 09:51 AM

"It is just the scale of the problem under discussion." OK, so lets have another look at the figures again.

The Conservatives have 316 Mp's 37 of whom are subject to allegations of sexual impropriety. More than 1 in 10.

Labour have 259 MP's 4 of whom are subject to allegations of sexual impropriety. Less than 1 in 60.

It would seem that the Conservatives have a far bigger problem than than Labour, seemingly at least 6 times greater.

Subject: RE: BS: Sexual impropriety at Westminster
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Mar 18 - 09:54 AM

Bollocks . No-one would would do that

I have just explained I am aware of at least 6 people that did. Your rational answer to that is 'Bollocks'? No real argument so you resort to abuse. Not like you Keith.

I have acknowledged from the start that the Tories do have that particular problem anyway. It is just the scale of the problem under discussion.

Well, I don't recall you ever having said that the Tories had the same problem. In fact your phrase was "other parties do not have such a problem" but, what the heck, you admit that they do now. Apology accepted. Yes, it is indeed a question of scale and as Raggy has pointed out the issue seems to be 6 times as bad with the Tories. I am not convinced that this is right and strongly suspect that the number or abusers, as a percentage, is pretty level across the political spectrum. As it is across all walks of life.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Sexual impropriety at Westminster
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 Mar 18 - 09:56 AM

The figures were also supplied by the idiot himself, or so he says.

Subject: RE: BS: Sexual impropriety at Westminster
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Mar 18 - 12:17 PM

Jim,,
"JEREMY CORBYN HAS BEEN ACCUSED BY NEARLY HALF THE FEMALE MPS IN HIS PARTY OF FAILING TO STOP THE "DISGUSTING AND TOTALLY UNACCEPTABLE" ABUSE OF WOMEN BY HIS SUPPORTERS."
That was a lie

It is the truth and thanks for highlighting it again.
It is the opening sentence of this article.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/22/45-female-labour-mps-write-to-jeremy-corbyn-demanding-he-does-mo/

Rag, your dossier was only on Tory MPs and there is no comparable survey on other parties to compare it with.
The 4 Labour MPs mentioned were unconnected.

Dave,
Well, I don't recall you ever having said that the Tories had the same problem.

1st March
"I had read your Indie piece thanks, and also a Guardian article.
Neither contradict anything I said."

Those pieces were about "Andrea Leadsome investigation that has seen Tory and Labour MPs suspended? " I accepted that fact without question.

Also 1st March, "I have only intimated that there are more accusations of rape within Labour than other parties. "

So however you interpret one statement of mine I have never denied and always accepted that it happens in other parties too. That is so obvious anyway it does not need saying.

Subject: RE: BS: Sexual impropriety at Westminster
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Mar 18 - 12:29 PM

"It is the truth and thanks for highlighting it again."
For Christs sake Keith The Labour Party had tens of thousands of women members - your own link from the Telegraph mentions a letter by forty five members
Vfont color=red>"45 female Labour MPs write to Jeremy Corbyn demanding he does more to stop 'disgusting' abuse from supporters"
You were asked whether they had a petition to get the opinion of the rest of the membership so you are fully aware of this
You really are insane
You are refusing to respond to any other point made - you continue to use raped and persecuted women to score political points
You are depraved
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Sexual impropriety at Westminster
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 Mar 18 - 12:41 PM

Gentlemen, I have suggested that he is suffering from some form of dementia and each day the evidence grows stronger.

All I have done today is to use the same report (albeit from a different source) to quote his own figures back to him. I would like to note this fact.

HIS figures are the same as mine which indicate 37 Conservative MP's are the subjects of allegations of sexual impropriety and 4 Labour MP's are subject to the same scrutiny.

Given the numbers of MP's for each party this indicates clearly, unequivitably and without question that more than 1 in 10 Conservative MP's are subject to scrutiny while less than 1 in 60 Labour MP's are so listed.

I cannot speak for anyone else but this would indicate to me that the Conservatives have a much deeper, and posssibly rooted, problem to deal with. Let us hope for the victims of this abuse they succeed in weeding the offenders out.

You will have noticed no doubt that once again someone is trying the move the goalpost. No change there.

Subject: RE: BS: Sexual impropriety at Westminster
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Mar 18 - 01:04 PM

"Let him go, let him go, God help him
Whatever he may be"
Somewhat apposite, given the subject of the song!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Sexual impropriety at Westminster
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Mar 18 - 01:11 PM

Jim, what has the number of Labour members got to do with it?

"45 female Labour MPs write to Jeremy Corbyn demanding he does more to stop 'disgusting' abuse from supporters"

"JEREMY CORBYN HAS BEEN ACCUSED BY NEARLY HALF THE FEMALE MPS IN HIS PARTY OF FAILING TO STOP THE "DISGUSTING AND TOTALLY UNACCEPTABLE" ABUSE OF WOMEN BY HIS SUPPORTERS."

That is the unvarnished truth and an indisputable fact. Both ways of putting it.

Please keep posting them in huge red capitals.

You are refusing to respond to any other point made

Put them up one at a time and I will.

Subject: RE: BS: Sexual impropriety at Westminster
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Mar 18 - 01:20 PM

Rag,
Those figures are not comparable.
There are more than 4 complaints against Labour MPs over recent years.

The figure 37 is from a dossier about Tory MPs only.
There was no comparable survey to make comparisons with other parties.

No objective comparison has been made by anyone.
There is much more recent research available. Consider that reported to Parliament by Andrea Leadsome which you claimed knowledge of.

I mistakenly thought your 6 month old dossier was the same one.
It is not and your old one has been forgotten by everyone.

Subject: RE: BS: Sexual impropriety at Westminster
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Mar 18 - 01:25 PM

ding dong..... sanity calling....

Not content with dead pig heads, those depraved over privileged tories are fucking the entire nation...!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Sexual impropriety at Westminster
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Mar 18 - 01:44 PM

Rag, New Statesman last week.

When the “Pestminster” scandal hit British politics last October, a group of Labour women set up their own campaign, called LabourToo. The aim was to collect Labour women’s experiences of sexual harassment and abuse in the hope of alerting the party leadership to a problem that had been ignored for too long.

At least four MPs are accused of misconduct – including inappropriate touching, propositioning, trying to take advantage of a drunk teenager, and ignoring a rape complaint.
The report, entitled “#LabourToo: Women’s experiences of sexual harassment, abuse and discrimination in the Labour Party”, tells 43 anonymised stories by party staffers, activists, politicians and candidates at both a national and local level, including reports of rape, groping, lewd comments and sexist attitudes.
One story recounts a rape during the party’s annual conference. “I was raped at [party conference], a man was harassing me and wouldn’t leave me alone,” reads the testimony. “I am no longer a member of the party and this at least in part played a role. I told my region and an MP I trusted. No-one cared.”


Another similar account from a party conference describes being molested in a hotel room by a drunk senior party official. “He pushed me down onto the bed and started to kiss and grope me,” the writer recalls. “I told him no and to stop but he ignored it.”
There are also reports on a local level, with one woman being groped by a “councillor who was very well-known to senior figures in the local Labour Party for being a serial groper of women” while out canvassing: “He would come up behind me and put a hand on my hips or round my waist when feeding back the data, and would always want to put ‘vote Labour’ stickers on women in a way that meant he could touch their breasts.”
Although more than 43 accounts were submitted to the group, some had to be left out for naming perpetrators or for fear of identifying the writer – LabourToo, including its organisers, are anonymous. Its main aim is not to shame the party, but to achieve structural change.

Subject: RE: BS: Sexual impropriety at Westminster
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 Mar 18 - 01:46 PM

I wonder if the idiot would care to let the rest of us have details of complaints he claims have been made within the Labour Party in recent years.

I would suggest that he if tries to do so he will fail so I expect a wall of silence of this one.

Should he try to go back decades I will start with the allegations regarding what I am sure will be one of his heroes. None other than Winston Spencer Churchill who it would seem couldn't keep his pecker in his trousers.

Oh how the mighty have fallen.

PS I've got a funeral tomorrow so won't be around. Although I WILL respond to any lies if I can. If not I'm sure I can rely on others here.

Subject: RE: BS: Sexual impropriety at Westminster
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Mar 18 - 02:00 PM

Keith. You only accept that the whole political spectrum have an issue with abuse because we have spent the last few days hammering that fact into you. Had we have not done so we would have been left with your misleading statement "other parties do not have such a problem" intimating that only the Labour party suffer from this flaw. You tried your best to say that you never intended to say that in the first place but this thread, and your past history, indicates to anyone who can read that your credibility is non existent. Little wonder that you defend the alt-truth mongers like Farage when you model yourself on them.

You have still not addressed Jackaroodaves excellent points nor my point that if a lack of complaints indicates a lack of anything to complain about does that mean that Women's rights are upheld to a higher standard in countries where the complaints are fewest?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Sexual impropriety at Westminster
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Mar 18 - 02:05 PM

is this thread starting to get a bit too steamy...???

Someone's prurient preocupation with the reported details of women's complaints of abuse,
is possibly verging on the self pleasuring....???????

Subject: RE: BS: Sexual impropriety at Westminster
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Mar 18 - 02:47 PM

Someone has always been self pleasuring PFR. The phrase I used was 'wanker' :-)

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Sexual impropriety at Westminster
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Mar 18 - 02:52 PM

You are not going to stop are you Keiuth?
You failed at Antisemitiusm
All your article mentions and more have been done by tories - and they were let off
A Tory aid was accused of raping a drunken women - he got off because the defence did not reaveal the wonam's records and she went to the press - he probably raped her - she was drunk so she was "taken advantage of" - he escaped justice on a technicality
"describes being molested in a hotel room by a drunk senior party official"
Happenes regularly in all parties
" lewd comments and sexist attitudes. "
Like the tory who sent his secretary for sex toys and refers to her as "sweet tits"
"a man was harassing me and wouldn’t leave me alone,"
You defeded Damien Green fro doing just this - he offered promotion for sex
Every single example you have dredged up has been happening in Parliament from time immemorial
Tory ministers, top Civil servants and members of the house of Lords were accused of regular orgies involving children at Dolphin Square
EVEN A PRIME MINISTER
UNINVESTGATED CLAIMS
MORE
,font color=red>Later during PMQs May was asked by Labour backbencher Lisa Nandy about concerns that the Conservative whips’ office had stockpiled reports of potentially criminal behaviour by MPs to pressure them into loyalty.

“Can I say to her that three years ago I brought evidence to her in this house that whips had used information about sexual abuse to demand loyalty from MPs,” Nandy said.

“I brought this information to her in this house and I warned her at the time that unless real action was taken we risked repeating those injustices again today. On three occasions I asked her to act and on three occasions she did not.”

Nandy was referring to claims made by a former Tory whip in the 1990s that during the early 1970s the Edward Heath government covered up scandals involving child abuse to pressure MPs.

May replied: “I will say to her that I am very clear that the whips’ office – I hope this goes for all whips’ offices across this house – should make clear to people that where there are any sexual abuse allegations that could be of a criminal nature, people should go to the police.”
Enough Keith - you've vomited yourt hate enough
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Sexual impropriety at Westminster
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Mar 18 - 03:27 PM

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-33785352
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/mi5-helped-margaret-thatcher-cover-6120006
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Sexual impropriety at Westminster
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Mar 18 - 04:54 PM

Rag,
details of complaints he claims have been made within the Labour Party in recent years.

See the letter from over 40 Labour women MPs and the Labour Too report. Both recent.
Plenty there.

Dave.
intimating that only the Labour party suffer from this flaw.
I have not intimated that, and we are all aware of issues in other parties.

You have still not addressed Jackaroodaves excellent points nor my point that if a lack of complaints indicates a lack of anything to complain about does that mean that Women's rights are upheld to a higher standard in countries where the complaints are fewest?

Yes I have.
It is circumstances that lead to womens' silence on this.
They do not differ between the parties.
You have not answered the point that there is no special reason why Tory women, say, would keep silent and Labour not.

Subject: RE: BS: Sexual impropriety at Westminster
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Mar 18 - 05:15 PM

Jim,
Enough Keith - you've vomited yourt hate enough

I have expressed none.
I have only repeated what Labour members are saying about their own party, both on anti-Semitism and misogyny.
None of it has come from me.

Subject: RE: BS: Sexual impropriety at Westminster
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 Mar 18 - 05:22 PM

I realise that MOST people on this forum are of a reasonable intelligence.

How is it that one person can deny that "37 Conservative MP's are the subjects of allegations of sexual impropriety and 4 Labour MP's are subject to the same scrutiny"

That is FACT.

I have said before, recently, that I think this individual is suffering from advancing dementia, his continued behaviour only serves to reinforce this opinion.

Can I suggest that in order to maintain I modicum of reasoned debate we nod kindly and say, yes, yes and basically do not reply to his rambling.

Perhaps it would be kinder, although I am not, personally, inclined to be.

Subject: RE: BS: Sexual impropriety at Westminster
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Mar 18 - 06:05 PM

"None of it has come from me."

We'd like even less than that from now on, please.

Subject: RE: BS: Sexual impropriety at Westminster
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Mar 18 - 06:47 PM

My mother has dementia - we are so glad she never learned how to use a computer or the internet.

My sister who passed away several years back,
had mental health problems, was a manipulative self obsessive martyr,
and as far as I could tell, unhealthily out of control on the internet.
If she were still alive, who knows what serious problems she would now be causing on social networks
for anyone who she took a petty dislike to....???

I say this because of my own experience with problematic folks close to me;
my awarenes of mudcat's aging members,
and concern for the well being of certain difficult individuals....

...it's best to not get drawn into pointless conflict with them.
but also not helpful to respond by being hostile and insulting when they exasperate and antagonise us....

.. but i'm no angel.. so occasional sarcasm is ok when fed up reading their nonsense...

Subject: RE: BS: Sexual impropriety at Westminster
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Mar 18 - 07:00 PM

Point very well made. But we're only human...

Sarcasm is as good a way as any of dealing with 'em. Out-and-out dishonesty though, if not confronted, can bring Mudcat into disrepute.

Subject: RE: BS: Sexual impropriety at Westminster
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Mar 18 - 07:50 PM

I wasn't going to go here, but I feel that Keith has left us no alternative
THE CONSERVATIVES AT PLAY
HOW THE TORIES DEAL WITH SEX CRIMES
HOW THE TORIES DEAL WITH SEX CRIMES
CONFIRMED AGAIN
2017
2017 AGAIN
£^ sSEX PESTS - "AH< BUT HAVE THEY BREAVCHED MINISTERIAL CODE"
CONFIRMED BY TORY MOUTHPIECE

Perhaps now you will respond to the fact that Labour will have to run to catch up with your party in the Sex pest stakes Keith
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Sexual impropriety at Westminster
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Mar 18 - 02:43 AM

I have not intimated that

Only because we stopped you. You had a good try.

You have not answered the point that there is no special reason why Tory women, say, would keep silent and Labour not.

I did. I agreed with Jackaroodave's analysis.

No more hoops. You have failed to convince anyone that Labour is the party of sexual abuse just as you failed with your antisemitism ploy. About time you stopped digging.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Sexual impropriety at Westminster
From: Jackaroodave
Date: 06 Mar 18 - 03:44 AM

Keith: "What have I left unanswered please?"

Urm . . . . the rebuttal of your major premise?

Subject: RE: BS: Sexual impropriety at Westminster
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Mar 18 - 03:56 AM

Maybe it's time to widen this whole issue and leave our tame Establishment cap-doffer to wallow in his swill
Sexual predation is an aspect of an unequal society, the privileged and powerful preying on the weak and dependent
It first surfaced big-time with the clerical abuse scandals, covered up by the church heirarchy
Then came the Knight of the realm, Sir Jimmy Savile and CBE holder, Rolf Harris revelations, when leading entertainers with access to children and teenagers, were found to be abusing them
Then Cinema and theatre people
Now politicians
The latter has involved those at the top of the tree - even a PRIME MINISTER
All these have been covered up by hose at the top - the heirarchy of the church knew what was happening - some of them were involved.
The media moguls were aware of Savile's behaviour and did nothing to stop him
The 'casting couch' was a running joke in the film industry.
Now, it transpires, Parliamentary privilege was taken for granted as 'boys being boys'
Recently charities and sporting organisations have been brought to public notice
As far as I am concerned, all these are aspects of a rotten system running down
About ******* time (pardon the pun)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Sexual impropriety at Westminster
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Mar 18 - 04:06 AM

Well said, Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Sexual impropriety at Westminster
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Mar 18 - 04:29 AM

Dave,
Only because we stopped you. You had a good try.

I did not. you are making shit up now.

Jacjaroo, I answered your point at the time and again when Dave referred to it.

The circumstances of female Labour and Tory politicians are very similar and I would like to know why one should be less likely to complain than the other.

Rag, Dave made this thread about "impropriety," but who cares about impropriety.

Your dossier lists people for indulging in gay group sex and shenanigans with secretaries, and it lists women.
I care about abuse of women and all forms of misogyny.

If it is consensual it is nobody's business but theirs and I don't care if you call it "impropriety."


All of you, forgetting "impropriety," on misogyny and the abuse of women there has been an outcry from within Labour about just that.

40+ women MPs write to their leader begging him to do something about it.
A new grassroots movement within Labour to highlight the problem and to fight against it.
Nothing comparable coming from any other party.
That is why I think Labour has a particular problem.
Because so many members say so.

Subject: RE: BS: Sexual impropriety at Westminster
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Mar 18 - 04:33 AM

Leave him feller's leave him
Pretend your singing shanties
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Sexual impropriety at Westminster
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Mar 18 - 04:49 AM

The sails are furled and my work is done,
Leave her Johnnie...

Subject: RE: BS: Sexual impropriety at Westminster
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Mar 18 - 05:04 AM

Only one thing remains to be said I suppose :-)

Fuck off Keith

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Sexual impropriety at Westminster
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Mar 18 - 05:25 AM

Ha, ha, ha.
That encapsulates your contribution to debate on this forum.
Playground abuse and naughty name calling.

Subject: RE: BS: Sexual impropriety at Westminster
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Mar 18 - 05:34 AM

Now you are openly supporting paedophelia and rape with your silence on proven acts by Government high ups and Prime ministers
Puts your concern for women and children squarely where it belongs
Pity you can't throw in s fw million Muslims, Irish children and Travellers while you're at it
Have a good prey - d'you hear now!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Sexual impropriety at Westminster
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Mar 18 - 06:50 AM

Jim,
proven acts (paedophelia and rape) by Government high ups and Prime ministers

Seriously Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Sexual impropriety at Westminster
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Mar 18 - 07:09 AM

Here's a very practical idea..

Whenever an individual voluntarily puts his/her name forward for election as a Tory MP...

...arrest them immediately.

They've already narrowed themselves down as persons of interest in unreported or unsolved sex and/or corruption crimes,
thus saving valuable police time and expensive investigations....

Subject: RE: BS: Sexual impropriety at Westminster
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Mar 18 - 08:27 AM

Moving on still, as Keith has now reached the stage of openly defending Top Government paedophiles and rapists
Sex has now entered Irish politics again from a different direction
Having wone his case against teh police department, whistle-blower and honest policeman Maurice McCabe is now describing to an enquiry how the Police Authorities instigated hundreds of text messages accusing him of sexually abusing his own children - the orders came from the top
Handy thing sex - if you know how to use it!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Sexual impropriety at Westminster
From: Jackaroodave
Date: 06 Mar 18 - 09:40 AM

Keith:"I answered your point at the time and again when Dave referred to it. The circumstances of female Labour and Tory politicians are very similar and I would like to know why one should be less likely to complain than the other."

Yes, Keith, they are certainly similar with respect to conditions that make sexual harassment of women likely to occur and unlikely to be reported. They differ in two aspects that most voters think is important: their politics and their membership.

I have to say that when your supporting claim is even less probable than the thesis it supports, your argument is in trouble. No offense, but I just want to grab you by the shoulders, shake you, and holler, "Wake up and look! Look about you!"

You just don't understand how momentous and novel this movement is, or how difficult it has been hitherto for women victims to seek justice. Two years ago there wasn't a Labour Too or Me Too movement ANYWHERE. The most a sapient defender of Tory Exceptionalism can say is, "There isn't a 'Tory Too' movement . . . . yet."

Let's consider three US examples of accused abusers who were nationally famous for decades before their victims risked public scrutiny:

When the Harvey Weinstein scandal hit, there were posts on this very forum that said, basically, "Hey, it's Hollywood, bimbos trading sex who didn't get what they bargained for. We all know how that works, nothing new to see here, let's move on." Then, crablouie, it all blew up in our faces.

Roy Moore, the "10 Commandments Judge," was (barely) defeated in his Alabama senatorial campaign when Leigh Corfman accused him of molesting her when she was 14 years old in 1979 (!) and was echoed by Beverly Young Nelson (16 in 1977 or 78), and Tina Johnson (28 in 1991). A majority of Republican voters still voted for Moore, some stating outright they'd rather be represented by a child molester than a Democrat. Some Republican office holders repudiated Moore, others, including our president, supported him. Had Nelson and Johnson not chimed in to show a pattern, Moore would probably be in the Senate today.

Just in the news the other day, the prosecutor of Bill Cosby, beloved comedian and accused serial rapist, has petitioned the judge in Cosby's re-trial to admit testimony from 19 women among the 60 who claim Cosby raped or molested them in incidents dating back to 1965. These women are unable to bring Cosby to the bar themselves because the statute of limitations on rape had expired by the time they were emboldened enough to speak out against this public icon. Even now, it looks as if there may be no justice for them.

In the light of these examples, I'll just reiterate what I said before, and you are welcome to do the same. "By denying that women will keep quiet about abuse and rape, you simply disqualify yourself from discussing the phenomenon."