Walt Disney:examples of 'naff' or 'twee'

Subject: Walt Disney:examples of 'naff' or 'twee'
From: keberoxu
Date: 03 Mar 18 - 04:47 PM

Mudcat member Leeneia, bless her heart, is an extrovert,
so she hasn't been shy about asking questions like
what's the difference between "naff" and "twee" ?

Using the Mudcat forum search,
it was possible for me to find the old threads with that question
and with the many volunteered responses.

What I do have in common with Leeneia is that I'm from the U.S. in an area without people who use these Brit terms. So "naff" and "twee" are as mysterious to me as to her or anyone.

It occurred to me, reading all the Brit answers with examples from the stage, the cinema, literature and so on,
that for an uncouth Yankee like myself,
the Walt Disney brand might be crawling with naffs and twees and with both-at-the-same-time examples.

But in order to pin these down,
one has to really feel comfortable with those two British words
as well as the Disney canon.

So that's the question: what can you name
from Walt Disney's films/cartoons/characters/song lyrics/ and so on
that is: naff? twee?   both?

I would cheerfully welcome examples outside of Walt Disney, to be honest, as long as they were something North Americans would recognize.

Now, here's a layered example:
For seven years, Robert Carlyle has been having the time of his life playing Rumplestiltskin on "Once Upon A Time," for North American network television (now streaming online as well).
Asked how he threw this caricature of a character together, Carlyle referenced everybody from -- ach, names! What are their names?
Kenneth Williams, was he one of them?
See, this is British, and I don't know these comics.

Subject: RE: Walt Disney:examples of 'naff' or 'twee'
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 03 Mar 18 - 05:36 PM

'Naff' is slang for anything bad generally speaking, synonymous with 'crap' although it is only used as an adjective.

'twee' is used to describe anything/anyone cloying, unnecessarily saccharin, effete, affected style. It's a dictionary word so you should be able to find definitions and synonyms like 'sentimental, sweet or pretty' (I would add a rider as excessively so in the mind of the beholder).

As for describing films, one person's tweeness/naffness is another person's fun/delight.

I love almost all of the Disney films when I can push some of the American mush out of the way. The more recent the film the more mushy generally speaking. Snow White and early shorts, absolute magic! Must say I thought 'Moana' was well done though.

Subject: RE: Walt Disney:examples of 'naff' or 'twee'
From: keberoxu
Date: 03 Mar 18 - 05:38 PM

Jiminy Cricket from "Pinocchio" for example?

Subject: RE: Walt Disney:examples of 'naff' or 'twee'
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 03 Mar 18 - 05:44 PM

Okay you asked. 'Beauty and the Beast' is a good example. The animated characters in the castle are brilliant and very tasteful. Gaston is all American and typical redneck. Some of Disney's added characters to the original German tales are very 'naff'. Most of the songs are very 'twee' but they are generally aimed at kids who lap them up. I love the music from the early films, Snow White, Fantasia, Bambi, Pinocchio, Jungle Book, Peter Pan, but the songs from the more modern, yeuch! Lot of personal nostalgia in there though as there must be for most people.

Subject: RE: Walt Disney:examples of 'naff' or 'twee'
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 03 Mar 18 - 05:50 PM

There you go, Jiminy Cricket, I would say was a clever addition and not twee or naff, and the song also. One person's......

Subject: RE: Walt Disney:examples of 'naff' or 'twee'
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 03 Mar 18 - 05:53 PM

There's a helluva lot of sentimentality in Disney films but it only becomes twee/naff when it is overegged. Nana's character in PP is very sentimental but not overdone.

Subject: RE: Walt Disney:examples of 'naff' or 'twee'
From: GUEST,keberoxu
Date: 03 Mar 18 - 05:54 PM

Sticking with "Pinocchio" then,

"When You Wish Upon A Star" is   a "twee" song
but
Jiminy Cricket, the character who sings it,
is maybe not as "twee" as the song -- ?


And in the first classic "Jungle Book" musical animated film,

"The Bare Necessities" could be twee
but the singer whose voice is Baloo is sophisticated enough
to interpret the song without going over the top.
(I always forget the singer's name. Phil somebody?)

Subject: RE: Walt Disney:examples of 'naff' or 'twee'
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 03 Mar 18 - 06:01 PM

Kenneth Williams you will find plenty on by Googling. A very camp persona who specialised in sexual innuendo and rose to fame in the 'carry-on' films. These comedy films would be seen as very unPC nowadays but were very popular in their time.

Subject: RE: Walt Disney:examples of 'naff' or 'twee'
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Mar 18 - 07:12 PM

Baloo the Bear had the voice of Phil Harris. A name I can never remember exactly and always have to look up.

So Phil Harris sang "The Bare Necessities."

A Mudcat search on his name pulled up a LOT of posts and threads.

I have heard someone else sing "The Bare Necessities"
who attempted the same sort of feel, same key, same tempo,
and funnily enough, it sounded really limp-wristed --
BECAUSE
the swing-rhythm didn't swing hard enough on the syncopated syllables.

Funny what a little (more) rhythm can do.

Subject: RE: Walt Disney:examples of 'naff' or 'twee'
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 04 Mar 18 - 04:32 AM

'When you wish upon a star' Twee? Maybe but a helluvalot of people can sing it end to end. Fits the plot, has its magic and creates a lot of nostalgia.

Mind you a helluvalot more people can sing the mush from 'Frozen'!
'Give it up' Pleeeeaaase!

Subject: RE: Walt Disney:examples of 'naff' or 'twee'
From: Tootler
Date: 06 Mar 18 - 05:08 PM

Frozen is twee from start to finish....

Yet it's oddly compelling.

My granddaughter knows all the songs!

Subject: RE: Walt Disney:examples of 'naff' or 'twee'
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Mar 18 - 05:58 AM

Twee: a cartwheel leaning against a cottage that has nothing to do with farming.
Twee: a mock well in a front garden
Nyaff(Scottish verb): anything that is tasteless.e.g. out of date clothing/gaudy colouring/etc
Nyaff(Scottish noun): Insignificant thug/moron/pest

Subject: RE: Walt Disney:examples of 'naff' or 'twee'
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Mar 18 - 06:00 AM

Sorry in post above the first nyaff is an adjective, not a verb.

Subject: RE: Walt Disney:examples of 'naff' or 'twee'
From: keberoxu
Date: 07 Mar 18 - 01:29 PM

I know what you mean about kids and "Frozen."
There are kids out there who don't 'sing' "Let it Go," they bellow it at the top of their tone-deaf lungs. Sigh.

Subject: RE: Walt Disney:examples of 'naff' or 'twee'
From: mousethief
Date: 08 Mar 18 - 03:59 PM

----There are kids out there who don't 'sing' "Let it Go," they bellow it at the top of their tone-deaf lungs. Sigh.----

And if you have to sit through five of them at the middle school "talent" show....

Subject: RE: Walt Disney:examples of 'naff' or 'twee'
From: keberoxu
Date: 09 Mar 18 - 03:15 PM

From "Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs",
as a child it was especially entertaining to hear (soundtrack recording)
the seven dwarfs letting their hair down in one comic setpiece:

Ho hum, the tune is dumb,
The words don't mean a thing,
Isn't this a silly song
For anyone to sing!

which concludes with Sneezy interrupting the whole thing
with a sneeze of such proportions that
his preparatory wheezes send everyone else scurrying for cover,
and the sneeze itself is ... hmmm ... all but orgasmic.

Somebody had a lot of fun scripting all that.

Subject: RE: Walt Disney:examples of 'naff' or 'twee'
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 09 Mar 18 - 03:50 PM

Wonderful stuff. I once sang the whole of this song in a folk club!

Subject: RE: Walt Disney:examples of 'naff' or 'twee'
From: GUEST,keberoxu
Date: 09 Mar 18 - 06:47 PM

Steve, did you do the dwarves' yodeling as well??

Subject: RE: Walt Disney:examples of 'naff' or 'twee'
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 10 Mar 18 - 10:09 AM

Of course. I love yodelling, Swiss style, Jimmy Rogers, or dwarvish!

Subject: RE: Walt Disney:examples of 'naff' or 'twee'
From: GUEST,keberoxu
Date: 10 Mar 18 - 12:04 PM

"Lilo and Stitch" ?
Naff?
Twee?

Subject: RE: Walt Disney:examples of 'naff' or 'twee'
From: GUEST,keberoxu
Date: 13 Mar 18 - 10:26 AM

The Disney take on "Cinderella" bothered me, I remember.
A whole passel of little singing fauna, including rodents and small birds.
They got an entire song to themselves, and there was a lot of chirping.

Subject: RE: Walt Disney:examples of 'naff' or 'twee'
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 14 Mar 18 - 05:46 PM

Isn't that largely what most cartoons do? Cinderelly, Peter Pan, ah what wonderfully nostalgic escapism! The bonus is you get to watch it all over again with your grandchildren.

Subject: RE: Walt Disney:examples of 'naff' or 'twee'
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 12:05 PM

Disney is Disney. Certainly twee, but rarely "naff" in the sense of "disastrously lacking style, sophistication or coolness". When we nowadays think "U.S., naff, Donald, ...", we would not continue "... Duck".

Subject: RE: Walt Disney:examples of 'naff' or 'twee'
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 02:28 PM

Nice one, Grishka!

Subject: RE: Walt Disney:examples of 'naff' or 'twee'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 02:57 PM

twee/naff
Perfect example - ask any Irishman about Darby O'Gill and the Little People
I suspect American non-whites put Song of the South's 'Uncle Rumus in the same category
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Walt Disney:examples of 'naff' or 'twee'
From: GUEST,Lou Judson
Date: 15 Mar 18 - 06:52 PM

Oh jeez, without even reading a single message in this thread I can say EVERYTHING Disney has touched or produced has been both daft and twee! Just one look at what they did to Winne the Pooh and you can see.

Sorry if I am slightly off topic, but Disney is social and ethical poison! Even more since Walt passed on and it became a majopr conglomerated corporation.

Subject: RE: Walt Disney:examples of 'naff' or 'twee'
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 16 Mar 18 - 10:21 AM

Lou Judson, although it is bad style to post without reading the thread, you are by no means off-topic, and although I disagree with your verdict, you do have a point: Most modern entertainment, and this certainly includes the Disney, is driven by ideological and commercial agendas, not all of which are clearly visible. Anything playing on emotions, not only escapism, has its dangers in itself and as a vehicle for hidden subconscious messages. Goebbels knew that, and he was not the first one.

However, this does not make the products "daft". A well-made movie with a biased message is still a well-made movie. Disrespect for the literary source is not a crime either. This said, I agree that most Disney stuff is not first class art, but as I indicated, the verdict "naff" must nowadays be reserved for more dangerous phenomena, often coming without bothering about sophisticated disguises.

Subject: RE: Walt Disney:examples of 'naff' or 'twee'
From: leeneia
Date: 16 Mar 18 - 11:32 AM

Good heavens, I'd forgotten that I asked about naff and twee. It would be fun to see the original thread.

For me, the problem with this thread is that the only Disney movies I have seen are Snow White and Lady and the Tramp. And both were decades ago. I couldn't force myself to watch any of the others.

I have watched the yodeling scene from Snow White on YouTube, but it goes only too long, too. Amazing, when you consider the number of drawings it took. I have to say that it's neither twee or naff, because the yodeling is good while the slapstick isn't evil, merely tiresome. But I suppose kids like it.

I was at a party recently where somebody had put Lady and the Tramp on for the kids. Nobody watched, and, Lord, it was interminable.
======
Thanks, keberoxu

Subject: RE: Walt Disney:examples of 'naff' or 'twee'
From: keberoxu
Date: 16 Mar 18 - 06:57 PM

Leeneia,
you might consider Pinocchio.
Jiminy Cricket, who is Pinocchio's "conscience",
narrates the whole story as it unfolds.
That character also has some of the best and wittiest songs.
I can't remember the name of the popular singer who is Jiminy Cricket's voice;
once you have heard that voice with that character, it's unforgettable.

Some of the better tunes are in that film.
The warning that stays with me, though,
is the part where Pinocchio gets swallowed by the whale.
The stormy ocean is supposed to be very scary.

Subject: RE: Walt Disney:examples of 'naff' or 'twee'
From: keberoxu
Date: 03 Jun 18 - 06:50 PM

obituary for the voice of Prince Charming,
William Phipps

Subject: RE: Walt Disney:examples of 'naff' or 'twee'
From: GUEST,Wireharp
Date: 04 Jun 18 - 04:05 PM

How can anyone hate Darby O'Gill and the Little People...

1.) Irish legends (including the Dullahan)
2.) They speak IRISH in it
3. JAMES BOND SINGING!!!! good Lord...
I mean.. James Bond.. and he's SINGING...

It's not meant to be a pedagogical offering or Irish culture.. just a bit of fun.Although I agree the fiddling was awful.

Subject: RE: Walt Disney:examples of 'naff' or 'twee'
From: keberoxu
Date: 04 Jun 18 - 05:14 PM

It was Tommy Steele who I couldn't stand.

Subject: RE: Walt Disney:examples of 'naff' or 'twee'
From: keberoxu
Date: 17 Jul 21 - 12:05 AM

And now Disney is doing, of all things,
a re-make of "Space Jam."

But judging from the images I have seen so far,
they left out that little fellow
with the helmet, and big eyes staring out
from the darkened visor, or whatever that was.

Subject: RE: Walt Disney:examples of 'naff' or 'twee'
From: Charmion
Date: 19 Jul 21 - 11:17 AM

That's Marvin the Martian you're speaking of, keb. His outfit is supposed to evoke a Roman legionary's armour and helmet, Mars being a Roman god, y'see.

Getting back to the original question, about "naff" and "twee", did any of the commentators up-thread discuss the class-related nuances of those words? (Too long, didn't read.)

To my Brit-oriented Canadian ear, "naff" has a distinctly proletarian ring, and it suggests something that pretends to be worth your money but just isn't, like "gold-tone" jewellery or a polyester suit. "Twee", on the other hand, is a bourgeois word, originally popular with the university set, denoting the kind of sticky sentimentality a certain kind of adult thinks suitable for children because they think it has been successfully emptied of sex and horror. Disney's "Peter Pan" is twee, for example, but not as twee as J.M. Barrie's original novel or the West End play derived from it ("Clap if you believe in fairies!").

Subject: RE: Walt Disney:examples of 'naff' or 'twee'
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 19 Jul 21 - 12:56 PM

Walt Disney is the epitome, of both. So many of the movies, fall into the, "Pass me the sick bag " category.

Subject: RE: Walt Disney:examples of 'naff' or 'twee'
From: BobL
Date: 20 Jul 21 - 01:59 AM

As I recall, "naff" was simply a nonsense word invented as a substitute for ****, **** or even ******. Being meaningless, it could not itself be considered improper. Any connections with social class would be those of the words it replaced.

Subject: RE: Walt Disney:examples of 'naff' or 'twee'
From: clueless don
Date: 20 Jul 21 - 06:51 AM

On 04 Jun 18 - 05:14 PM, keberoxu wrote

It was Tommy Steele who I couldn't stand.

Were you thinking of Finian's Rainbow?

Subject: RE: Walt Disney:examples of 'naff' or 'twee'
From: GUEST,keberoxu
Date: 20 Jul 21 - 10:50 AM

Bullseye, clueless don,
and there was another American film or two
where Steele did much the same thing.