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BS: Rough service light bulbs

Bonzo3legs 12 Mar 18 - 04:57 PM
bobad 12 Mar 18 - 05:43 PM
Senoufou 12 Mar 18 - 06:18 PM
Senoufou 12 Mar 18 - 06:19 PM
Bonzo3legs 12 Mar 18 - 06:37 PM
Steve Shaw 12 Mar 18 - 07:06 PM
Stilly River Sage 12 Mar 18 - 07:16 PM
Senoufou 12 Mar 18 - 07:29 PM
robomatic 12 Mar 18 - 07:34 PM
Joe Offer 12 Mar 18 - 07:45 PM
Jon Freeman 12 Mar 18 - 07:50 PM
Steve Shaw 12 Mar 18 - 07:59 PM
robomatic 12 Mar 18 - 09:34 PM
bobad 12 Mar 18 - 09:50 PM
Steve Shaw 12 Mar 18 - 10:01 PM
Steve Shaw 12 Mar 18 - 10:01 PM
Jon Freeman 12 Mar 18 - 10:02 PM
Jon Freeman 12 Mar 18 - 10:10 PM
Steve Shaw 12 Mar 18 - 10:12 PM
Dave the Gnome 13 Mar 18 - 02:39 AM
Bonzo3legs 13 Mar 18 - 03:47 AM
BobL 13 Mar 18 - 04:43 AM
Senoufou 13 Mar 18 - 05:09 AM
DaveRo 13 Mar 18 - 05:25 AM
Will Fly 13 Mar 18 - 05:27 AM
DaveRo 13 Mar 18 - 05:35 AM
Steve Shaw 13 Mar 18 - 05:56 AM
Richard Mellish 13 Mar 18 - 06:18 AM
Steve Shaw 13 Mar 18 - 07:24 AM
Mr Red 13 Mar 18 - 08:57 AM
Bonzo3legs 13 Mar 18 - 09:25 AM
Bill D 13 Mar 18 - 09:30 AM
Stilly River Sage 13 Mar 18 - 11:56 AM
Senoufou 13 Mar 18 - 12:20 PM
Will Fly 13 Mar 18 - 12:49 PM
Jon Freeman 13 Mar 18 - 01:13 PM
Steve Shaw 13 Mar 18 - 01:43 PM
Bill D 13 Mar 18 - 03:45 PM
Bonzo3legs 13 Mar 18 - 05:23 PM
Joe Offer 13 Mar 18 - 07:03 PM
Jon Freeman 13 Mar 18 - 07:17 PM
Joe Offer 14 Mar 18 - 01:23 AM
Mr Red 14 Mar 18 - 03:49 AM
Rapparee 14 Mar 18 - 12:39 PM

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Subject: BS: Rough service light bulbs
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 12 Mar 18 - 04:57 PM

Thank goodness we still have about 75 40,60, & 100 watt rough service light bulbs left, and they are still easily obtainable! Last thing we want to do is change to the useless eco light bulbs.


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Subject: RE: BS: Rough service light bulbs
From: bobad
Date: 12 Mar 18 - 05:43 PM

The horseless carriage will never replace the horse, they said.


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Subject: RE: BS: Rough service light bulbs
From: Senoufou
Date: 12 Mar 18 - 06:18 PM

We've stockpiled 10W, 20W and 60W incandescent lightbulbs, as we don't like the energy-saving ones. They take ages to heat up and the light is a weird greenish colour.
We like very low lighting in our house, 10W bedside lights, 25W in the sitting room and 60W in the kitchen so we can see what we're cooking.
The amount of bulbs we've stocked up should see us out with any luck!


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Subject: RE: BS: Rough service light bulbs
From: Senoufou
Date: 12 Mar 18 - 06:19 PM

Not 20W, I meant to type 25W. Perhaps there's not enough light here in the sitting room...?


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Subject: RE: BS: Rough service light bulbs
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 12 Mar 18 - 06:37 PM

Good for you Senoufou!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Rough service light bulbs
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Mar 18 - 07:06 PM

The fluorescent low-energy bulbs are terrible technology. The way forward is LEDs. The prices are coming down, they use very little energy and they last for yonks. And they come on straight away and you can get warm white. Clinging on to incandescent bulbs for old times' sake is highly irrational. Admittedly they have their uses, for example to make the artificial flames dance in me mum's electric fire, but, generally speaking, bulbs that convert electricity to mostly heat or which contain poisonous pollutants which are hard to dispose of safely when the bulbs are spent are nothing to get sentimental about.


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Subject: RE: BS: Rough service light bulbs
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 12 Mar 18 - 07:16 PM

LED bulbs are much more affordable now, though they can fail in a way that causes fire, so not perfect. And they come in a variety of colors of light, soft, warm, bright, daylight, etc.


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Subject: RE: BS: Rough service light bulbs
From: Senoufou
Date: 12 Mar 18 - 07:29 PM

I'm getting in a muddle now. So there are:-

1.incandescent bulbs (the original old-fashioned ones)

2. low-energy ones (which cost a fortune, take time to get bright and are greeny, and contain mercury)

3. LED ones which can fail and cause fire.
   (Are LED what Crimbo tree lights use?)

How confusing!


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Subject: RE: BS: Rough service light bulbs
From: robomatic
Date: 12 Mar 18 - 07:34 PM

Incandescents have the single advantage of being ultra simple. You plug in an incandescent, the 120V or 230V or 240V goes straight across the tungsten wire and the lamp lights up. But, incandescents are a thing of the past, and should be, if you believe in using energy more efficiently AND SAVING MONEY on your electric bill.
LEDs are quite white, ultra long lasting when appropriately constructed, and use less energy per lumen than the fluorescents, and as far as I know do not have mercury, as do some of the fluorescents. You can buy LED screw-in lamps at Costco now, both the dimmable and non-dimmable kind.
And make sure you don't use non-dimmable in a dimmable circuit. Life is cheaper, but more complicated with LEDs and fluorescents.


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Subject: RE: BS: Rough service light bulbs
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Mar 18 - 07:45 PM

Damn. I wrote a long, thoughtful message, and it didn't post.

I thought it was my patriotic duty to buy those compact corkscrew fluorescent (CFL) bulbs, so I bought hundreds of them for my home and for the old firehouse women's center I used to maintain. I founds that they lasted 5 to 7 years, whether they were used or not. Unused bulbs that I bought 5 years before, usually lasted 6 months. And the bulbs got dimmer as they aged, and burned out with an acrid smell.

So, my corkscrew CFLs all burned out about the time that LED bulbs came down to a reasonable price, and I bought LEDs for the house (I had quit the Women's Center by then). So far, so good with the LEDs. They use about half the energy of the CFLs, so the savings over CFLsis not as significant as the CFL savings over incandescents. But I'm hoping the LEDs will last longer and work better. The "daylight" LEDs are too bright, but the "soft white" LEDs seem pretty good. And now there are dimmable, clear glass LEDs that look quite nice in chandeliers and ceiling fan lights.

Acme's statement that LEDs can fail in a way that causes fire, is the first I've heard of a fire hazard. Can you give more info, Acme?

And no, I'm not really interested in going back to those heat-producing incandescent bulbs. I've found lots of LEDs that I really like....and I guess I have to admit I found the corkscrew CFLs to be fascinating.

-Joe Geek-


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Subject: RE: BS: Rough service light bulbs
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 12 Mar 18 - 07:50 PM

We hung on to incandescent lamps for some time due to a combination of switch compatibility and disliking cfls. I think we have been all LED for around 2 years now and we’d not want to return to incandescents.

As a rough split, we use daylight lamps in the kitchen, my room, the bathroom and for the outside floods and use warm white elsewhere.


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Subject: RE: BS: Rough service light bulbs
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Mar 18 - 07:59 PM

There's no mercury in LEDs. Both fluorescent striplight tubes and compact fluorescent bulbs contain mercury, without which they can't work and for which there is no acceptable substitute. As for fire risk, this comes with shoddily- and cheaply-made bulbs that some mostly-Chinese sources have tried to flood the market with. There's no risk with LEDs made by reputable manufacturers and marketed by reputable outlets. Caveat emptor. They may cost a bit more, but if you really will insist on buying the cheapest crap you can find on eBay...


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Subject: RE: BS: Rough service light bulbs
From: robomatic
Date: 12 Mar 18 - 09:34 PM

If you use non-dimmable LEDs in a dimmable electric circuit, and then try to dim them, you will damage the power supply to the LEDs and I suppose they will burn out. Whether this can lead to a fire is a good question, but as I wrote above, pay attention to the proper use of the lamps and you will be fine.

You can tell if the circuit is dimmable because the control switch will not be a simple on-off switch but will be some sort of turnable knob or graduated slide which allows you to control the brightness of the lamp from full brightness to partial brightness, to no brightness.

You must verify that the control will work for LEDs, and that the LEDs will work with a dimming power source.

If you're dealing with straight on-off circuits, all you need is the simplest LED bulbs. Having dimmable LED bulbs in a non-dimming circuit will neither help nor hurt, sort of like putting high-octane gasoline in a non-high octane engine, you'll pay for something you're not using.


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Subject: RE: BS: Rough service light bulbs
From: bobad
Date: 12 Mar 18 - 09:50 PM

Note that not all dimmable LEDs work with all dimmers - check packaging for compatibility.


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Subject: RE: BS: Rough service light bulbs
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Mar 18 - 10:01 PM

I have one dimmable LED operated by an old dimmer switch that's been there for years, and it doesn't work especially well - a bit of flickering at certain levels of light. I think I read somewhere that you need the "right kind" of dimmer switch for proper compatability. But it sort of works well enough for us!

I have several LEDs in outside lights that each have a dusk-to-dawn sensor built into the bulb housing. I just leave them permanently switched on but they are all turned off by their sensors during daylight. The cost is negligible and it's nice to come home to. Neighbours are not an issue with us but we do get interesting moths in summer.


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Subject: RE: BS: Rough service light bulbs
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Mar 18 - 10:01 PM

Cross post there - sorry.


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Subject: RE: BS: Rough service light bulbs
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 12 Mar 18 - 10:02 PM

While on that sort of thing, also check compatibility if you are using low voltage lighting, eg 12v MR16. I believe there is least one of the MR16 lamps on the market that will work with an existing transformer for halogens but in many cases, you would need to change the transformer for one designed to work with LEDs.


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Subject: RE: BS: Rough service light bulbs
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 12 Mar 18 - 10:10 PM

What you need is one of these Steve ;-)

(Actually we are using this dimmer model in 2 places here).


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Subject: RE: BS: Rough service light bulbs
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Mar 18 - 10:12 PM

Er, my needs are so modest that I think I'll pass on that, Jon...


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Subject: RE: BS: Rough service light bulbs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Mar 18 - 02:39 AM

You can also now get led lights that look like filament bulbs if you so desire. I recommend Home Bargains for all things to do with bulbs. Decent quality and low price.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Rough service light bulbs
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 13 Mar 18 - 03:47 AM

The LED bulbs sound interesting, might give one a try. I believe that the cost of using a 100 watt incandescent is just a mere few pennies per hour.


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Subject: RE: BS: Rough service light bulbs
From: BobL
Date: 13 Mar 18 - 04:43 AM

My sitting room has decorative lamps that benefit from clear, rather than frosted, bulbs, controlled by an old-fashioned (thyristor) dimmer. So I stocked up with bulbs while they were still available - enough to last at least as long as I do. Ironically, clear bulbs are one type that is still available...

BTW, incandescent bulbs have a low luminous efficiency, they consume a lot of energy to produce a given amount of light, dissipating most of it as heat. This is usually described as waste heat - but it isn't! At least, not always. On winter evenings which, I suggest, account for most of our artificially lit hours, we have to heat out homes anyway, and this "waste" heat makes a small contribution towards it. We see calculations showing how much we can save by switching to solid state bulbs, but do they take account of this?


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Subject: RE: BS: Rough service light bulbs
From: Senoufou
Date: 13 Mar 18 - 05:09 AM

As to cost, I've Googled it and it seems that to run a 100W old-fashioned light bulb for an hour costs £0.003 ! (in other words very little)
We only have a very small bungalow, and have just three lights on once it gets dark. We go to bed early, so I imagine the expense is tiny. Also, we don't have any 100W bulbs, just those I mentioned above.


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Subject: RE: BS: Rough service light bulbs
From: DaveRo
Date: 13 Mar 18 - 05:25 AM

Senoufou wrote: They take ages to heat up...
The early ones certainly did, but modern compact fluorescents (CF) are much quicker in my experience. The early ones - sometimes distributed free here the UK - gave them a bad name.
BobL wrote: this "waste" heat makes a small contribution ... do they take account of this
No. But if they're ceiling lights they won't warm the room air much. So put them on the floor.


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Subject: RE: BS: Rough service light bulbs
From: Will Fly
Date: 13 Mar 18 - 05:27 AM

We changed evety bulb in the house to LEDs as soon as we could. They were more expensive than other bulbs but far better value for money.

As for the low-energy things - yuk!


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Subject: RE: BS: Rough service light bulbs
From: DaveRo
Date: 13 Mar 18 - 05:35 AM

The average electricity price in the UK is about 13p/Kwh. So a 100w bulb costs 1.3p per hour.


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Subject: RE: BS: Rough service light bulbs
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Mar 18 - 05:56 AM

While is invidious to try to do a wattage comparison between LEDs and incandescent bulbs, the obstinate fact remains that your replacement LED is using something like six times less electricity than your incandescent was using. Multiply that by the tens of billions of light bulbs used the world over and you have a cast-iron environmental argument for switching to LED.   Compact fluorescents are only slightly less efficient than LEDs but they come with the undeniable environmental cost of that mercury that they have to contain and which gives a disposal problem (and just think of the millions that are irresponsibly disposed of in the kitchen bin). Plus they don't last as long. In the long run LEDs will save you money and they are greener. No getting away from it. As for the "useful" heat that incandescents give out that gives you a nice warm ceiling, I assume that you have each one fitted with a thermostat to cut out the unwanted heat on hot summer nights. As for those in the tropics... :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Rough service light bulbs
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 13 Mar 18 - 06:18 AM

As far as I can see, the only minor downside to LED bulbs is that even the dimmable ones are only compatible with some dimmer switches.

There are few circumstances where it would still make any sense to buy new incandescent or compact fluorescent bulbs. Whether it makes sense to throw away old bulbs that are still working and replace them by LEDs is less clear. In my house I have all four sorts: conventional tungsten, halogen (which are a variation on conventional tungsten, slightly more efficient), compact flurorescents and LEDs, but as the old ones die I will replace most or all of them by LEDs.

If you have compact flurorescents then they will need to be replaced sooner or later and the mercury that they contain will then go somewhere, preferably via a recycling facility. Whether you replace them now or wait till they die makes little difference.

Mercury is another reason to stop using tungsten bulbs. Some of the extra electricity that they use will come from coal-fired power stations, and the coal contains some mercury, which goes into the atmosphere. It may not seem much, but it's probably more than the mercury that the compact fluorescents will release if they are not properly recycled.


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Subject: RE: BS: Rough service light bulbs
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Mar 18 - 07:24 AM

It's the carbon dioxide we should worry about.


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Subject: RE: BS: Rough service light bulbs
From: Mr Red
Date: 13 Mar 18 - 08:57 AM

We changed evety bulb in the house to LEDs as soon as we could

Well all I can say to that is: "don't read in bed" - the fluorescent gels (yes they are fluorescent lights FWIW) act the same as fluorescent tubes & CF in that the phosphors are excited by blue or ultra-violet light, and fluoresce at R, G & B much as yer; phone, TV, Tab & PC screens do.
The heavy preponderance of blue fools the eye/brain into thinking it is nearer to mid-day than it really is. ie you should be awake. Insomnia sufferers beware, they all will only make it worse.
And there is concern growing about how street lights are being changed over to LED and that changes insects' hunting strategies and alters predation, and the balance of insects. (think blue) Consider the concern over bee populations (not necessarily honey types) doing pollination for free. Or not! Basically we will know the effects when it is too late. Nothing comes for free!

My bedroom switch is a dimmer/remote and that has to be tungsten. Plus I read the New Scientist to put me to sleep
and it does. But the kitchen has an LED strip light. I advise not going for the PIR models, they detect only within their length! And the saving in power is nill!


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Subject: RE: BS: Rough service light bulbs
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 13 Mar 18 - 09:25 AM

I bought one 9 watt led bulb for fun!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Rough service light bulbs
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Mar 18 - 09:30 AM

Like Joe Geek Offer, I went thru the CF stage and have now begun to do almost all LEDs. My wife still likes a few old incandescents for her craft work, but we have enough stored up.
   In the USA, there are more & more deals and styles of LEDs daily and I am careful with dimmers. It seems to me that LED technology is the wave of the future and, although it is not always convenient for older homes to adapt wiring & dimmers, our children & grandchildren will wonder at how Edison's invention lasted so long.

(I have 6-7 WWII blackout bulbs with only a small area at the tip to allow light through. There are people who 'collect' ancient light bulbs.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Rough service light bulbs
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 13 Mar 18 - 11:56 AM

When LED lights were expensive I replaced them at the rate of one room every couple of months. Now they're much more affordable and I have a few spares around because they don't really last as long as the packaging says.

Steve, I mentioned the fire hazard because Mudcatter Rapparee did some renovations in his home and an LED fixture started smoking because it failed and generated a lot of heat. I don't know where that was manufactured, a contractor probably provided it, not the local Big Box hardware store.


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Subject: RE: BS: Rough service light bulbs
From: Senoufou
Date: 13 Mar 18 - 12:20 PM

I'm so glad our village hasn't got a single street lamp. Once the sun goes down the place is totally black. When we stay at my sister's, although it's a village too, she has one of those bright orange street lamps outside her house. She has blackout curtains in her bedroom, but not in the guest room!

When we moved here, we got an electrician to re-jig the kitchen fluorescent tube on the ceiling and replace it with an ordinary connection for a 60W light bulb. We don't like those tube lights, it's like being in an office.

Our sitting room is dark as a cave in the evenings. Two 25W bulbs at each end, plus the TV screen. I expect a couple of candles would give more light, but that's how we like it.

Our little bedside lights are 10W and give just enough light to read by. But after five minutes we're nodding off, so they get switched off in no time.


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Subject: RE: BS: Rough service light bulbs
From: Will Fly
Date: 13 Mar 18 - 12:49 PM

LEDs make no difference whatever to my sleep patterns. I have 15-20 minutes, sometimes less, on my Kindle each night in bed - and go to sleep the instant my head touches the pillow. I've no doubt the little drop malt about 9.30pm helps...


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Subject: RE: BS: Rough service light bulbs
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 13 Mar 18 - 01:13 PM

Acme. I think I’ve replaced 2/24 lamps inside over our estimated 2 years. I think there are a couple of spare dimmable GLS spares around as I made a couple of changes, eg. switching to an LED panel in my room but (unlike with the incandescents) I haven’t really made an effort to carry spares. We’ve got dimmable/non dimmable, GLS, candle, GU10, MR16, daylight/warm and I’d not want to keep one of each type.

I had 2 x 50W floods fail outside. They looked a good buy on Amazon and mostly received 5 star reviews but 6 month down the line, people started having troubles (I think mostly water getting in) with them and they are now “unavailable” on the site. So far, the MiniSun branded ones I replaced them with and had previously been using in smaller wattage versions to light a path from the house to the field have been good. Certainly hope so. We don’t want to have replace any of our LED lamps soon but there is more expense and hassle with these.


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Subject: RE: BS: Rough service light bulbs
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Mar 18 - 01:43 PM

I've had good experience with MiniSun too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Rough service light bulbs
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Mar 18 - 03:45 PM

Different areas & countries have different manufacturers... with often different levels of dependability. Here Feit Electric is a serious leader in the market. They make 'almost' anything in the LED line.


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Subject: RE: BS: Rough service light bulbs
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 13 Mar 18 - 05:23 PM

Not bad light at all from my 9 watt led bulb!


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Subject: RE: BS: Rough service light bulbs
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Mar 18 - 07:03 PM

I had four 60-watt incandescent bulbs on the ceiling fan in our kitchen, and I have a stepson who does not know how to turn light dimmers "low" or "off." So, I got clear, dimmable LEDs. But the lights flickered, so I got a new dimmer that was intended for LED lights. But the lights still flicker.
What's causing my LED light bulbs to flicker? And yes, the fan is controlled separately.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Rough service light bulbs
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 13 Mar 18 - 07:17 PM

I don't expect to answer your question Joe but I know that with the stuff we have here, dimmers often have some means of at least setting high and low points and I'd assume that's where most problems occur. Do they flicker at "low", at "max" or is it all through the dimming range?


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Subject: RE: BS: Rough service light bulbs
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 Mar 18 - 01:23 AM

Seems to be at all settings, Jon.


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Subject: RE: BS: Rough service light bulbs
From: Mr Red
Date: 14 Mar 18 - 03:49 AM

they don't really last as long as the packaging says

that would be you switching on and off. The LED bit might last 20,000 hours (MTBF) in constant use but the circuitry works at probably 1 Mhz with coils and magnetics and silicon so your switching on/off still affects the life of what I assume would be the FET and circuitry generally.

What's causing my LED light bulbs to flicker?

yer problemo is the nature of the AC voltage and the way the LED circuitry works. The dimmer will merely switch on each half sinusoid at (in the US) 60 Hz. The LED drive circuitry is (presumably) designed to smooth out the rectified AC and expects it to be a certain shape (sinusoid on each half cycle ie all positive). As the dimmer starts to not switch on each half cycle for a portion of the half cycle, then on for the rest, there is less time for the circuitry to accumulate a store of energy to fill in the gaps. That would cause flicker.

Then you have the problem that the dimmer is a high speed switch, with harmonics extending up into the Mhz. With the circuitry running at that frequency they can interact. ie a Beat frequency, analogous to the twelve string guitar or mandolin. AFAIK you tune the string pairs to beat at a pleasant rate (frequency).
The solution would be to buy the LED and dimmer together as a combined unit, or at least from the same manufacturer.

For a beat frequency to appear you need non-linearity. Circuitry has plenty of that, so does the wood and construction of the musical instrument.

FWIW my strip light dims when there is no body to trigger the PIR, and given the uniform light that results I would guess the dimming mechanism is as per separate dimmer, rather than altering the number of LED dice powered. It powers down to 1/10 which I use to see in the back yard on return, and put the key in the lock!


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Subject: RE: BS: Rough service light bulbs
From: Rapparee
Date: 14 Mar 18 - 12:39 PM

A couple years ago we changed almost entirely to LEDs a couple years ago. There were issues: a part in the fluorescent replaces wasn't put in and the bulbs were recalled. However, nobody told our supplier. Literally hundreds of the bulbs had been installed around town and had to be replaced SOONEST. But it got done because the electricians were pissed, as was the owner of the electrical supply. The only problem after that was flickering of a couple bulbs and replacement dimmers took are of that.

Love 'em!


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